The Tram Train Excellency of Paris
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- Опубліковано 29 бер 2024
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Paris is set to open a HUGE expansion of the metro in the next couple of years, but its many new tram projects have gone severely underappreciated. In this video we talk about the Paris T12 and why it's so special.
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The fact the expansion cost less per mile then the Montreal BRT line is infuriating.
The Paris metro area is constantly building new lines, so it’s likely that they have gotten everything down to a T (pun not intended), whereas Montreal may not have all that recent experience. I’m not very familiar with Montreal, but before the REM opened, when was the last time the Metro (or the other regional rail lines) was extended?
Than*
Paris does have notoriously low wages relative to cost of living so I wonder if that has to do with it as well. Construction in North America is some of the highest paying careers. Typically construction is outsourced while in Paris the workers work for the govt directly (I believe).
@@PhilliesNostalgia The last expansion of the Montreal Metro was in 2007 and cost about $700 million for 3 new stations. The Montreal metro added a few stations every year up until 1988, and then almost no expansion thereafter, including adding no new rolling stock from 1980 until 2016, despite the system being expanded during this time.
The reason for North American costs being multiples of European or Asian costs, needs franker analysis. The explanations to date might explain modest percentage differences, but not the absurd multiples of cost.
As a French person, it's funny to see someone praise our infrastructure. Everyone's complaining because the T12 has major issues at launch and the low frequency has taken a toll on its popularity. 15 minutes is absolutely not enough right now, RER trains run much more frequently than this and move more people, so currently the T12 is a bottleneck for many people who were used to having the RER C line. I think the T12 is a good idea overall, but the frequency is bad. If I'm not wrong, they have issues recruiting tram drivers.
it's definitely an issue with the frequency but that could be improved. The infrastructure? Very praiseworthy that other countries can't seem to emulate properly. Hopefully the T12 gets the higher frequency it should deserve!
Not sure that the RER C branch it replaced had much more frequency though, is it?
This branch of the C was always the poor man of the line, or even the network if I recall correctly.
Was the RER C branch really that much more well served? The line has so many branches that it would surprise me! Though yes the tram SHOULD be much more frequent than the former RER!
@@RMTransitThe RER C on this branch had 15 minutes frequency on peak hours, and 30 minutes in the rest of the day, it wasn’t as busy as the Juvisy to Bretigny Branch but I’ve seen it being quite busy on morning peak hours, with people standing in the train because all seats were taken
Better frequency on T12 would be much appreciated indeed, though I fear that the single track part of the line between Épinay-sur-Orge and Parc du Château stations might be an obstacle to that
Other than that, it is a nice line that finally aims to make the stations that were part of RER C accessible, we’re just waiting for the lifts and the new connections at Epinay to be finished (all of the works on the line aren’t finished yet !)
Il n'y avait que quatre RER par heure sur cette branche en heure de pointe, donc la fréquence n'est pas pire (et devrait même être meilleure avec un tramway toutes les dix minutes). Par contre il est vrai que le T12 a ouvert trop en avance alors que les travaux n'étaient pas terminés et qu'il n'y avait pas assez de conducteurs, d'où l'état déplorable du service à l'ouverture (je ne sais ce qu'il en est maintenant).
Paris and France in general, are really masters at making both good public transit and urbanism, it’s usually pretty rare to be that good at both at the same time. And everything is so cleverly designed, Tram-trains in France usually have to go through a scissor crossing to change the side they run on (left on national rail, right on street alignment), but on T12, they make use of the single track section built because of the lack of space to change side.
Having to deal with constrained spaces makes European planners really good, here in North America, most of the time there is some sort laziness, because we just build in the middle of stroads with lots of space, there’s no challenge and we get the bare minimum, which most of the time looks terrible
Good transit in Paris: yes, The rest of France... outside the TGV network and the big cities, not so much...
@@thebardwhowanders9106 There are plenty of French cities with tram networks.
Lyon, Toulouse, Lille or Rennes have automated metro networks with impressive ridership numbers comparable to or higher than large US cities. Like Rennes whose two automated lines carry more than its population every day.
Marseille also does have a metro but is probably the least well equipped in transit and most car centric of the largest provincial French cities.
Toulouse recently opened a 3-station 3S gondola line and is currently extending one metro line and building an entirely new 3rd automated line equipped with Alstom Metropolis trains.
Bordeaux is studying the development of a metro to desaturate its highly popular tramway network.
Several cities are also in the process of lengthening their trams by adding new segments and extending stations.
What's poor in France is transit in rural areas, and some low density suburbs built following a model resembling the US suburbia one ; but most of the major cities have pretty good transit. There are dozens of projects to develop provincial RER systems and other services.
urbanism sucks less, but it still is definitely not up there yet
I actually don't agree that its rare to be good at both urbanism and transit, because honestly I see them as two sides of the same coin. You just can't have truly great cities *without* great public transport.
@@thebardwhowanders9106And you want to build a mass transit system in the country side? There aren't big cities in France for one. To turn Paris into a big city that's the entire Greater Paris which is counted, half of it being only fields.
I *looove* grassy tracks. They look so cheerful and comfy. I wish they were more prevalent here in Canada.
They are extremely rare here, essentially only existing on the Eglinton Crosstown at the moment
When they built the tramway lines and I was all the dirt I was dubious on the project. But once the grass grew and even flowers, it really gives a nice refreshing effect, especially in Summer. Totally changed my mind.
And it costs a lot to maintain....these are grass mats.....not natural soils.
@@Lodai974 They aren't grass mats. They put real dirt and real seeds then the grass grew by itself. It doesn't require any maintenance. They let it grow like weed and where the tramway passes the grass is naturally mowed by the friction with the tram. In spring and winter that's nice because you have high grass with some flowers which brings some freshness in an environment which would be all asphalt otherwise.
The Eglinton Crosstown LRT and Metrolinx should really look at Paris's Tram Trains for inspiration, especially since it utterly fails at being a subway, an LRT, and a tram train.
I'd say the same for the Montreal East REM / tramway they are planning!!!
Originally the Eglington Crosstown was suppose to be this style tram train that was predominately at-grade. Unfortunately that coke sniffing dunce Rob Ford got ahold of it and turned it into an expensive franken-project of close subway stations for essentially a streetcar.
@@dez7800I think that project will be a problem because it's going to be a Ottawa style LRT when it REALLY should be a REM East extension like originally planned. It won't be attractive because of long commute times and because of that, it'll make more ppl drive.
@@deric8What pissed me off is that they (Metrolinx and Doug ford) made the Scarborough side a streetcar like surface rail, with no priority signalling. It just baffles me that they would do that. But all of a sudden they found extra money to conveniently bury (the currently under construction LRT west extension) underground in ironically Ford's neck of the woods?? It's disrespectful and just shows how these politicians treat the east side of Toronto.
@@nanaokyere7141 I mean I was also skeptic at first, I would've agreed 100% with what you said, that was basically what I said... However, it seems they did some studies on it and their conclusions were that a REM style extension would be less advantagious than this new one... Also, I am not that familiar with Ottawa's LRT (apart from the fact that it has had a lot of problems), but from what I've understood their proposition aligns more with this kind of tram train (in this video). In brief, I'm not so sure where I stand now to be honest.
Hello from Epinay-sur-Orge ! Glad you’re talking of our new tram, I’ve seen the line being built since the beginning of its construction, seing it finally running is so great
While it has known some difficulties in the first months after the inauguration due to a shortage of drivers, it seems to run better now, though the people who live on the ex-RER C part of the line are understandably upset to have lost their direct connection to Paris since they have to get off the tram at Epinay to continue to Paris now
The other half of the line (Epinay to Evry) is most commonly appreciated, since it constitutes a brand new rail alternative to the car in the neighbourhoods it runs through
Thanks again !
Hey! Could you please tell me if there's any update on the project to expand the line up to Versailles? I'm a rail fan who has been monitoring the T12's construction (on the internet I mean) and I was expecting some news on the expansion of the line but then they decided to create line V. & I'm kinda disappointed cz doesn't that mean they're not very serious about the expansion? 🤦🏽♂️
@@tahsin_0348 the extension to Versailles Chantiers was in their plans but that means removing all of the level crossings in the existing line because of strict regulations, which would be much more expensive
The project is unfortunately put on hold because of that, and we don’t have any news on that topic since then
@@pinksdmr oh really? but why? Why would they require the elimination of all level crossing for a TRAM? They were fine with the heavy trains of the RER C but now that it's a tram the regulations become more stringent?! it just doesn't make sanse to me🤔🤔
While the loss of direct service is annoying, at least people get the new trams and direct connections to Evry!
@@tahsin_0348 I don’t get entirely why it has to be that way, because it is indeed an existing line that is already used by TGVs, RER C before this branch became ligne V, cargo trains and other passenger trains, I know though that some level crossings have been removed on the existing RER C in the past few years (between Massy Verrières and Chemin d’Antony and also on the branch between Brétigny and Dourdan), though there are 3 of them remaining on T12 in Epinay-sur-Orge between Petit Vaux (which can be seen between 2:29 and 2:41, with still the old RER sign) and Gravigny Balizy
The regulations might have become stricter after the beginning of the constructions perhaps
Can you please do a video explaining why rail/light rail construction costs vary by city/country? What are the variables that make Paris lower than others for example? I’d imagine wages, union rules, resource availability and land acquisition costs would all contribute.
Most of the things you note are already adjusted for in cost comparisons! That should make it clear how the issue is even more severe!
If you're interested, read into NYU's Transit Costs project, and also Alon Levy's blog
I'm not sure wages/unionization are a huge factor in France. France has some of the highest wages in Europe and universal unionization in their public sector and construction industries. I think what France has in its favor is strong anti-NIMBY laws, and planners who do these projects all the time so have the process to do them quickly and at reasonable cost down to a science. As compared to the UK, who has very low wages, low unionization outside the public sector, but less protection from NIMBYs, a Tory government that hates transit, astronomical levels of corruption on government projects, and a lot of their experienced planners retired long ago.
As has been hinted in the vide, project requirements due to previous (common) law get in the way. Also, jurisdiction issues means you have to pile in extra activities that adds extra costs that other cities/countries would not include. Also, jurisdiction issues can lead to a politics of prioritising certain lines of work often does add to uncertainty and therefore cost to projects.
@@mrvwbug4423Unions have nothing to do with it. Contrary to the clichés, France is among the least unionised countries in Europe, less than the UK and by far, and those unions aren't as strong as they used to be.
Low frequency is partly explained by a lack of drivers which SNCF subsidiary TransKeo tries to overcome. However it is taking more time than expected to resolve since most candidates failed during the training process 😂 And obviously forming drivers takes time but when you don’t anticipate things, this is what you get.
This created quite a lot of backlash in the media since the opening…
Yeah I've heard, rough!
they even put a big sign at the depot/maintenance center entrance that roughly say : hiring, no requirement, we provide training;
As far as combination of Tram, Metro, Regional Trains and Suburban Trains there are not many Cities that can keep up with Paris
Impressive Network
In fact after the grand Paris express’s main projects are completed it will have the most expansive rail network in the world after Tokyo
I agree. Many people in France are complaining about transit in Paris which is fair in my opinion because like any transit system it has its issues. However, the way Paris implemented all these modes in a smart way is incredible.
And with Grand Paris Express this will be next level. It will double the subway network in a fraction of the time it took to build the legacy one.
@@tornation5609Are you sure? I thought Shanghai had the most expansive one. It's not about the size it's about the size compared to a city. Paris already has the densest network, the network in Tokyo is more expansive but the city is huge. As a result Tokyo is definitely lacking more lines, especially circular ones like the new metro in Paris. They only plan to build a new one in the 2030's.
just to add more pain to the comparision, a new tramway T3b expansion opened a few days ago, RER E expansion will open in 3 weeks, metro line 11 expansion in about 6 weeks and metro line 14 expansion in less than two months. I honestly may have forgotten others.
2:47 Love the Rhino on a skate board.
Yeah that's a good way to raise awareness about the new tram and intersections.
Instead of just communicating about it being dangerous and posting the usual signs everywhere, they also went for a very real and slightly humorous way :
"The tram weighs like 30 rhinos, you *won't* win the confrontation".
It also appeals to kids that will better remember about being careful around the tram.
The first time I've seen the campaign was for tram T9 when it opened in 2022 if I recall correctly.
And from what I've heard or read somewhere, nearby schools received leaflets with the rhino on a skateboard to teach kids about the new tram in their neighborhood and how to behave safely around it.
Sadly there were still a certain number of collisions with cars on the T9 after opening and during testing phase. Especially with turning cars that didn't look before turning in locations where they previously could turn without really looking. (Though they should have cause pedestrians always were there before the tram).
Seen again at 5:43.
This was first used in Melbourne back in 2011, it really stuck in the public's mind for a while so I'm not surprised to see others use it too.
@@KyrilPG Its a good way of breaking out of the normalcy of hazard signs etc
This feels a lot like the blue line in the twin cities. Downtown it's like a streetcar with dedicated lanes but as it gets further out it uses old freight rail lines with gates and such next to the street. It also has short tunneled and elevated sections that feel more rapid transit.
Kind of similiar to the Dublin Luas system too!
The issue is such lines probably aren't good as the *only* higher order transit in a city!
@@RMTransit the blue line is not the only higher order transit, but it is the best in the city so I see what you are saying
AFAIK Massy to Epinay still sees the occasional freight train, being a part of the "Grande Ceinture", the Paris outer belt line. Naturally with RER C and now T12 these mostly run at night, but it means that the light rail vehicles have to be compatible with the rail infra.
Reminding Canadians every week that we could have it better but simply choose not to 😥
Don’t forget about us Americans.
We absolutely are choosing to, it just takes time
@@DDELE7 us americans invented all the bad stuff and Canada copied us mostly but failed miserably so theyre now better off
I wouldn't say its so simple. Canadian cities are building more transit and know they need to, the issue is they generally aren't getting the infrastructure right.
Public transport (transit) campaigner from the UK. Love the video. Does anyone know why Paris is able to build public transport (transit) projects cheaper than the UK, the US and Canada?
transitcosts.com/projects/
Love the shots of the tram running along the nice green grass. It breaks up the constant gray colour.
Something you might not have noticed is that in France, trams run on the right track and trains on the left. The section between Evry and Epinay sur Orge is considered as "tram" but in Epinay sur Orge the tram line merges with the southern Grande Ceinture line (orbital freight line) and that's where trams run on the left! Actually the right/left change occurs over the single-track section just before the tram enters a tight curve and passes under the Paris-Orleans train line.
The same change occurs on tram line T13 between Saint-Germain en Laye and Saint-Cyr. If you take the tram in Saint-Germain en Laye the right/left track change takes place just as the tram enters the part of the line that recycles the long disused west Grande Ceinture line, namely just before the tram hits the Lisière Pereire station and you can see the weird arrangement of switches making that possible.
Fantastic vidéo, difficult beginning for this line but it gets better and it was really a necessary link between massy and Evry
Interesting to see Melbourne Trams' "Attention Rhino" campaign being used in Paris.
same operator Keolis (transkeo)
For comparison, only a few cities in UK have trams. Namely Edinburgh, Manchester, Nottingham and Sheffield. London does have it but only in one area. Belfast, Bristol, Leeds, Liverpool, maybe even Norwich and Reading should have one already. Basically any city over 250,000. Trams are clearly better in that not only do they have move capacity than a bus, but is also entirely on electric. I think that Leeds is actually working on a new tramway after the ~2002 cancellation. For comparison, Over 20 cities in France has a tramway.
2:48 😂 The rhino sign! Melbourne uses these too 😂
I love that they nicked the “Beware the Rhino” wrap from Yarra Trams!
This reminds me of randstad rail here in the Hague, including the converted railway - rapid transit - regular trams order
Love that these are becoming more popular! I just wish HTM would start running coupled trams again
Lately I started watching a channel of a tram driver for the HTM and I'm very impressed. Most see things about Amsterdam and, although Den Haag looks more car friendly than some other places in The Netherlands, the system is extensive, seams very efficient and the trams go really fast.
The channel called TramMeneer.
@@AL5520 the Hague is the most car centric of the randstad cities aside from Rotterdam, but our tram network is pretty great. We honestly just need some more time for our road design to improve and a local government which doesn't invest in urban highways in the 21st century and we'll catch up pretty quick :D
Very informative and educational. Good job.
I'm a regular user of the T12 and i'm a bit disapointed because the last departures are ealier than announced and they doesn't run on thé entier Line , and on Peak hours trams are often crowded. But when the RER C served the stations between Petit vaux et Massy, trains were not crowded at all times and it was very easy to get Versailles, Juvisy or Paris but the service ended earlier than the T12.
You should do a video on Melbourne's tram network
Great video!
The very things of this project works is why the Interborough Express works with this style tram-train for that crosstown line
No they are totally different
3:53 how are the costs kept down?
Edit: This would be a great standalone video for transit systems in general.
cant wait for the future Paris video
We have a train in North America that matches this to a T. San Jose used to have express trams, but they got rid of them. However, I have an idea to get that back on track. The top speed for VTA’s light rail track is 65 mph, which is as fast as many mainline trains in North America. Like this line in Paris, it runs on the street for a few miles, has a transfer at Tamien Caltrain station, and then runs on the freeway functioning as regional rail line. Once Caltrain electrifies, it would be feasible to extend rides from Tamien to Santa Theresa with the stadler trains running express from Tamien to Santa Theresa (Single stop at Ohlone) and VTA trains running local.
2:47 Picture of a Rhino on a Skateboard: A tram weighs the equivalent of 30 rhinos...
You'll never be a match for him!
Who says the French don’t have a sense of humor?😀
This is a repeat of an ad campaign in Melbourne from 2011, it's almost exactly the same even down to the stripes along the top frame.
@@Skasaha_ You are right. They recognized a good public service advertisement and duplicated it. Now someone is going to tell me that the tram wasn’t invented in France.😀
@@barryrobbins7694 yup ,in USA at NYC by John Stephenson in 1832 .
@@Lodai974 I think the first one was in the UK, but at almost the same time.
Nice video.
Hi, love your content. You rock. I'd just like to suggest you to cover the commuter rails of India in a video. I find them fascinating because some of them move absolutely huge numbers of people and have high frequencies, yet in many cases remain overcrowded and continues to use old infrastructure. I'd love to see a video talking about your take on how improvements can be made to these railways and if anything can be applied from these railways elsewhere.
These would be great for the new commuter developments in West and East Lothian!
The whole design of the systems and urban ream is way ahead of anywhere else in the world.
You should check out the Budapest tram system. One of the largest tram systems in the world!
Does the short video of Oporto's metro bridge at the end means there's a video about Metro do Porto coming? :D
Living here, we forget how spoiled we are. I'd love us to get the trams between train stations. Several have been proposed but not much more.
Sidenote: I rewatched you GPX works video this morning and I wanted to tell you that the Société du Grand Paris has been renamed Société des Grands Projets (Society of Great Projects) while keeping the same logo and acronym. Now, the SGP has also in charge the study of the RER networks of every big City in France, according to Macron's wish so the name couldn't focus on just Paris.
As for this video: Many transportation specialists and nerds hate the Tram Train idea on those formerly train routes. They think that a real metro would have been better, especially if numerous TOD zones form around the route, not to mention a tram will still be uncomfortable over long distances, mostly at high speeds.
The reason for low frequencies is the lack of drivers after Covid and the strikes. The problem will remain for a year at least.
T11 had a similar problem a few years ago but for a different reason. Drivers didn't want to operate on the line because the Dualis had notorious braking system issues that made it unsafe. (the same as tram trains in Nantes and Lyon).
Secondly, T12 should go up to Versailles Chantiers but when? We still don't know. Ultimately the RERC loop sections in the South will completely be transfered to T12, the Western part of it has already been detached from RER C to become Transilien V Line.
The Regional Authority also has a plan to implement more missions on the rest of RER C with shorter routes (in short, come back to what was in order three decades ago...) to alleviate exploitation problems on one side impacting the other side. The Dourdan and Etampes branches should be transfered to Austerlitz Station to terminate there as regular suburban trains while RER C line should be stopped at Brétigny, that's why they needed a double island platform at Les Ardoines because it will likely be the first stop from Bibliothèque François Mitterand for those new long distance suburbian routes from Austerlitz.
Some of this is just nonsense
One interesting aspect of the Paris tram system is how the tracks *don't* connect between lines. Many places where two lines meet there are no connecting tracks! I find this to be an interesting choice. I understand not running services mixed/overlapping on the same rails, but not even tracks so you can move rolling stock or works cars between lines?
You should make a video about the south wales metro/ transport in the cardiff capital region
it is a light rail system that operates on a graded and non-graded corridor using coupled 4 segment low floor light vehicle sets.
Trams/streetcars are light rail vehicles.
It’s 4 segments. The 5 segments version exists but was never produced
Frequency is not that much of an issue as most people would be used to it as an RER branch, but maybe an extra train that short-turns on the southern most segment where its very urban and could benefit from a bit more service if needed
It’s actually a tram-train that can do both missions and switch easily between urbain and suburbain services. It’s more a train in Lyon and Nantes. But the Rhône Express is a true tram / train service like Mulhouse.
The Rhone express is just a train it only has 3 stops, the Tram-train de l'ouest Lyonnais is also a contender
Just to add more pain to the comparison, a new tramway T3b expansion opened a few days ago, RER E expansion will open in 3 weeks, metro line 11 expansion in about 6 weeks and metro line 14 expansion in less than two months. I honestly may have forgotten others.
I love trams!
Do a video on Melbourne trams pls
This has very Croydon Tramlink vibes to it. Looks like a great system. I wish we did more of this in London but we seem to be stuck on using just electric buses everywhere. Having formerly worked in Croydon and taking the tram from Wimbledon to Croydon many times....trams are just better (especially when they have signal priority and their own right of way). I took the Toronto streetcar recently and while the vehicles were nice, it was SO SLOW I just wanted to get off.
Not only does London need more trams in general, but the whole of the UK as well.
Do you think such a tram-train-light rail would be an option for Montreal's Train de l'est /"REM" de l'est?
Its an option, but probably not the best option!
@@RMTransit what do you consider the best option - especially if there is a political necessity to go beyond the island of Montreal? (or did you already do a video about it that I missed? 😀 )
Also noticed that these tram-trains have very high hpantographs, like they wanted to be able to reach overhead wire high enough to run freight trains under.
When they hire more drivers, T-12 should reach 6-minute Peak frequency and 12-minute Off-peak
The hybrid route sounds like randstad rail route 3, 4, and 34.
Wow I'm early, I really love these videos. Somehow I really enjoy these even with my HORRIBLE attention span and that speaks volumes
Headways do need to be a lot better, they just can't achieve this because they don't have enough drivers because they try to cut the costs so much and the jobs are not attractive :)
Cost cutting also caused the project to be way worse than it should have been in a lot of places, such as the lone platform in Massy, the 20km/h curves to get on the bridges to cross the highway,...
Overall, transit users in the area are NOT happy with the line, especially those who lost direct access to line C.
You managed to get hte Skateboarding Rhino ( one of the T12 train wth a yellow wrapping explaining that a tramway weight about 30 rhinos ), nice.
( I get to see it on a regular basis as I take the train from Massy regylarly )
Small note : the tracks used by the T12 are not a former railway line ( 2:03 ), they are still used, just not for the RER C . ( there's lots of freight train that uses it as it's part of the *Grande Ceinture* that surrounds Paris. )
On the T12 tracks there also some intercity trains
@@titouanbouve3153 The Ouigo Classique to Nantes/From Nantes goes through Orly, it doesn't uses the old RER C tracks... It's the same for the Marseille/Cherbourg TGV that needs to reach Valenton ( or comes from there )... It's on the T12 tracks for about 200m between the Ligne Stratégique and Massy-Palaiseau.
That's the only trains that are not freight trains ( or RER C, & Transilien V ) that go through Massy Palaiseau.
Now the tracks can be used ( and have been used ) as a fall back solution if there's a problem in Montparnasse to divert trains to other Paris stations ( Gare de Lyon, Bercy or Austerlitz ).
that's why it's a Tram Train and not a full tram, the SNCF wanted to retain the ability to put real trains on the tracks at any time.
@@tenalafel but i saw a Ouigo intercity service passing through at Gravigny balizy toward Juvisy
@@titouanbouve3153 It might have been the Nantes Ouigo that got diverted on the old C for some reasons... I know that several time it ended in Bercy instead of Austerlitz, and getting to Bercy from the Ligne Stratégique requires moving the locomotive to the other end of the train while it can be done from Juvisy with the D tracks without any fuss.
But on normal days that train ends in Austerlitz so goes through Orly.
*Cries in Berlin*
Does Germany have high costs to their public transit too? As a Californian I can't imagine it gets much worse than us 😂
@@F4URGranted No, the cost is actually really affordable since the Germany Ticket started (49 euros for *all* regional public transport *everywhere* in Germany). I'm crying because our current city council is car friendly and wants to "reexamine" transit plans that were sure to be built under the predecessor council. Which means I can only dream of what Paris is doing at the moment.
@@oliphant2848 Oh God... That means more studies and more time wasted spent NOT building transit... How exciting
@@F4URGranted Exactly. "Studies" is exactly what they're doing in their current public transit department. One early result was a complete brainfart of a super-ambitious U-Bahn extension (because subways are better for cars than trams, see) which would cost dozens of billions and be completed in 30 years or so. A wonderful charade while the actual Berlin U-Bahn right now is starting to wheeze from outsourcing and underfunding..
@@oliphant2848That's your fault for having a dangerous combination of strong auto industry and stupid politicians
I just wished we had the same will to have this in other French metropolises ! :(
How close is the nearest Paris tram line to the centre of the city? It looks like a nice tram system for suburban areas but not like Vienna, Prague or Zurich where there is street running in the city centres close to historical sights etc.
T3a & T3b are the closest to central Paris, with them running orbitally, just within the city limits
the closest line is the T3a which run (for its closest part) at 4km from Paris city center (located in front of Notre Dame)
A tram inside Paris would be pretty much useless as the metro is already everywhere
The hopeful message of Paris trams is that if they unfortunately disappeared, you can build them back! And in an even better way with a general urbanist outlook.
The grass track psychology would be similar to the mud track psych. I'm guessing. One' more pleasant.
The T12 borrowing the Rhino saftey ad from Melbourne @5:43??
I know Im not the only one finding good comparisons to other systems here but I think some of the things you point out can also apply well to a system in my country in the city of Aarhus. Aarhus is Denmarks 2nd largest city and has a 2 line Light rail system that has opened in stages since 2017. The system is 110km long but only around 12km is newly built, with the rest being converted from a 69km long and 28km long regional railways respectively to the north and south of the city respectively to the towns of Grenaa in the north and Odder in the south. Trams in Aarhus arent particularly frequent, and both the tram train corridors are all single tracked, but there is a proposal right now with decent support to build out strategic limited double tracking, new crossing stations, and a new depot to introduce 15 minute frequencies all the way to Odder to the south, and as far as Hornslet, almost halfway up the line to Grenaa.
Though the decissions about this will be made together with a decission on the system's phase 2, a new urban line to the city's west. The phase 2 has been put together from 3 different extensions, 2 of which have already been cancelled, in part due to carcentric planning decissions and controversies around trams here. And the last phase 2 line is also at risk of being built as BRT rather than trams. But I hope for the best.
Pretty sure RMT did a video about your city and it's TRAMS just a couple of months back.....
@@jdc327 Nah I know he didn't make a video about Aarhus. You might be mistaking it with another city.
And I'm gonna be the driver of one of those trams I'm so happy fr
i'm convinced that if ottawa had this i would be very happy.
Please make one about Brussels metro and tram system 🙇
Brussels video is coming!
2:47 attention rhino.
Don't speak French but I think I get the idea
apparently Australians used it in 2016 for a tramway too.
I can’t help feeling like you’d be criticising a North American tram that had single track sections, 4 tph frequency, and grade crossings.
Perhaps some of your mandatory requirements for a good system aren’t so mandatory?
Paris is what New York (and London to a lesser extent) would be like if they properly maintained their transit infrastructure, and built new ones when necessary.
As much as this is an interesting concept to follow and copy for other cities, I hope Montreal does not go this route for REM de L’Est, practically downgrading Automated light metro for tram train along current freight ROW
Hello, I live near T13, the tram featured in the thumbnail! When UA-cam suggested this video to me, I have recognized right away the terminus at Saint-Germain-en-Laye. You can even see the sign to indicate the proximity to the RER A. Unfortunately, I'm not able to see your additional video about T13, as it requires me to sign-up to something, if I understand well?
Anyway, as I'm used to take the tram I may as well provide some insights, on the T13 exclusively. Never taken the T12 so no comment.
The frequency would gain to be increased. Currently the tramway runs every 20min, though it is 10min in morning and evening rush hours. I've heard of a lack of personnel too.
Due to this, in one particular station, I've found buses to be more frequent, to take me to the city center.
There is a projet of extension too. Before 2030 (I forgot the official schedule), the line will be prolonged north to the two nearby cities (Poissy and Acheres).
In the particular case of T13, some railway history is needed to understand best the project. Firstly, back to the 19th century, a railway infrastructure connecting lines around Paris, called "La Grande Ceinture" (literally "The Great Belt", meaning belt like a ring around Paris) was built. While at the south and Est, the infrastructure was and is very much used, at the West of Paris, the infrastructure was not well planned and positioned thus leading to its closure at the time of the second world War (another link has been made further west).
Now, I know, you may wonder why I bring it up. This is because T13 was born out of the idea to re-open abandoned railway sections but modernizing them and very importantly, adaptating it to the city today, not the town that it was in WW2. Also, please note that this was actually also the case for other tram in Paris. For example, T2 in Paris use a ancient line but was modernised and made full tramway mode; T4 is original because until 2019, it was a tram-train running on exclusively a railway infrastructure, with the infrastructure still in the national railway register.
Anyway, because those anciens lines were not directed into Paris but around the core of the city, they all tend to be circular transit rather than in direction of Paris proper. Thus, finally on the subject of T13, the line was called at the time of its construction "Tangentielle Ouest" (literal traduction : Tangential West).
Bear with me, I promise the suit will be interesting. So what is interesting with the T13 project is that there was actually a first reopening of the line, in 2004. It was called the TGO, for Tangentielle Ouest, as mentioned before. However this was a failure in terms of passagers, with a trafic exclusively local.
The reason for this failure was that the infrastructure was re-opened... But was far from the city center of the cites it goes through. For example, it would stop 3km from the center of Saint-Germain-en-Laye. Thus, it was decided to close the line two years but to drastically change the infrastructure. The line would be prolonged south, to join Saint-Cyr, which is deserved by the REC C, and trains lines N and U. North, the tram finally did make a link to the terminus of the RER A, into the city center of Saint-Germain-en-Laye. Now, it was decided to build those news infrastructures in tramway mode, which thus explains why the T13 uses Tramway-Train system. However, please note that there is actually issues with the idea: a tram-train must be bi-tension to operate in both tramway mode (which uses 750 V) and railway tension (25 kV- 50 Hertz). The uses of past railway infrastructure adds some complexity to the system.
If I may speak, I think it show firstly the importance of good connections to the rest of the transport system. It also shows that you can (and should) improve your transport system, even if it failed the first time. I imagine much of what I'm saying was already covered up in the additional video I couldn't look :/ but if not then here you go! Appreciate your channel and good luck buddy!
4:29 A tramline terminating a few blocks from the metro actually doesn't sound so great. Is that temporary?
**Cries in Milan**
Milan has a pretty good system.
Maybe not as massive as Paris but it is expanding.
Aren't new lines currently being built?
M4 and M5, right? That's good news and will only improve mobility.
@@KyrilPG I mean it is but trams... If you're a tourist it's beautiful to see the original 1928 trams from the 30s but if you need to commute to work not so much. They aren't given priorities with traffic lights controls, many have block that prevents them going ver 20km/h, they are a pain to get in for elderly and children, a rule has been made 15 years ago so that 2 trams CAN'T both stop at a station (so people can't change with the one ahead) etc...
pretty extensive, pretty good locking but so much impacted by stupid choices of previous administrations.
The tram-trains they use seen quite similar to the Citadis Spirit...
I was a user of the massy juvisy rer C line and this change to t12 is worse for me
Because the t12 doesn't go to juvisy now and my route is longer and I need a new station change. The juvisy station was better, with more possibilities (rer D Melun, rer D Paris, rer C Austerlitz, rer D Malesherbes)
Besides being incredible new, the trams actually worked pretty well in Rio de Janeiro, contrasting with the decaying trains and stopped in time metro. Could you talk about them, please?
In fact there is no 14 but 16 metro lines (with 3 bis and 7 bis) !
I can't help but wonder what we could have achieved in Melbourne if we had of taken a serious look at Paris trams for inspiration...
Paris' public transport system is unequalled (in terms of possible connections & projects) ! But we're still not ready for the Olympics somehow. 🤦♂️😂
I just have to nitpick about this, but technically this tram-train line isn't situated in Paris per say. A more correct wording would be the "Paris's region", since where the tram is crossing through is a bunch a cities that are not in the same administrative boundaries as the city of Paris or as the Métropole du Grand Paris. It is located in the department of Essonne, of which Evry-Courcouronnes, one of the tram's station, is the chief-town.
1. Alstom develops a 90km/h low floor Citadis for the American tram/train market.
2. Paris says, "Hey! We can use that here, only better."
??? The bogies in France were tested successfully to 125 km/hr. The same isn't true in North America, testing-wise.
❤❤❤
Paris knows that they actually need trams. Unlike some other systems in North America that like pretending they have metros.
what i do not like about express trams, is that they 'ought to' have a capped speed, meaning that they reach a low max speed. What i think is better is a light suburban train that can share infrastructure with the tram but still have metro or regional rail speeds. Otherwise, the parallel bus routes may be just as practical, making the tram more of a decoration.
like nj transit riverline?
@@LouisChang-le7xo yes
Although I am European
When people in countries such as France see the debacle that is the Toronto Eglinton Crosstown LRT with its massive cost overruns, never ending construction with NO END in sight even after 13 years, which is the rule rather than the exception insofar as mass transit construction projects in the GTA is concerned, I'm sure they must ask themselves why this is allowed to happen?
The answer, as is the case with so many things in life: Just follow the money.
They then probably come to the conclusion that Canada is arguably the most (non violent) corrupt country on the face of the planet.
And they wouldn't be wrong.
jakarta/indonesia video when?
Even though the project is good it has it's flaws... for instance this type of tram train is more complex to maintain thus the heigher incident rate than on other lines. As for the T12, frequencies are too low (the project wanted them to be higher). This is because the company that run the trains have not enough drivers... and some of the trains are late. It is expected to get better, but these issues cannot be overlooked.
1:14 *Gadgetbahn spotted*
these trams have been around for at least a decade, they're a "new build" of an existing model lol
Pheonix tram was 1.9 Billion dollars. Soo
Dang what a coincidence, i got fined 35 euros some hours ago in a Paris tram because i forgot to validate my ticket (first time i use them)
Tick it or ticket! Never forget to validate on a metro or tram!
You need to make a vid on the Gothenburg trams! It’s huge
yay first to comment :)
Absolutely.
Back to the classic tram with steal wheels instead of rubber tires! 😂
Since so much of it is off-street, wouldn't citytrains like calgary ctrain have made more sense? Because you often criticize north american light rail systems (and including the IBX plan) for going off street but using low floor trams. Sure, the business park wouldn't look as nice but it would be worth it if it means simpler, cheaper, and possibly also faster vehicles. (For faster, I mean that LA light rail trains can hit over 65mph while Seattle only hits 55 mph, even if both systems have way too many tunnels and viaducts)
High floor trams are practically for Light Rail systems that run like metro services. Edmonton, Calgary, St. Louis, Frankfurt, and to an extent Manila run their systems like metros but the cost are lower. It keeps costly having just kept low floor trams standardizes the design of stations, maintenance, and operations. Which is why there’s a criticism for the Valley Line and Green Line in Alberta for opting for low-floor trams when it runs the same way as the high floor, seemed to be more like an aesthetic. Similarly for IBX fully grade separated, but opting for a viaduct connecting to a street then going back to the mainline because they don’t want to negotiate for tunnel expansion. That one is an orbital line connecting at least 8+ subway lines and some commuter services as well, not much of comparison when these bridges gaps outside of the Paris core to RER lines
"Paris tram system" is a triple euphemism
1. With the exception of T3 the trams are not really in "Paris"
2. It's not a system (or network), every line is its own "network" and there are basically no connections between the lines (except T1↔T8 for some reason)
3. some of these lines are not even trams (T5, T6)
;)
I completely agree Paris (or should I say Île de France?) tram lines organization is uncommon.
But on the other hand, they are positioned at locations where they make sense. Paris Metro is already so dense that it would almost be pointless to have tram lines in the core of Paris. Having those lines in the suburbs however is creating a lot of new connections.
So, even if they don’t constitute a network by themselves (which is less and less true because some of those lines now offer proper interchange between them), they are still participating to a network effect with other transit modes.
@@equilat Unless the tram is the main mass transport mean there is no need for connections between the line as they are part of the entire system where each part is connected to other parts of the same system. That said you can certainly refer to specific modes as a system within the large system, even if they are mostly do not interact directly with each other.
1) When someone says the name of the city, they usually are including its surrounding integrated economic region.
2) Just because the lines are not connected (and there are more links than you mentioned such as with T9, T3 etc) does not mean they are not a network or system - they are connected via other lines, namely the Metro and RER.
3) Translohr is bad, but it functions like a tram and most passengers will figure its just a bumpy tram.
@@AL5520 that is kind of what I wanted to say but maybe my comment was not clear enough :)
Trams in Paris are not the main mode but a mode between multiple other modes so the network effect is not between tram lines but between all these modes together. They just need to be implemented intelligently which seems to be the case in Paris.
So I think we both agree.
@JanMichalSzulew Actually you have a growing number of connections between trams: T1 T5 (Marché de Saint-Denis), T6 T10 (Hôpital Béclère), T2 T3a (Porte de Versailles), T3a T9 (Porte de Choisy)
I wish my metro sistem was as good as these😢
*system*
Semi off topic : if you do something about the T2 and the T4, dig very hard in the history, they used to be train lines ( except for a branch of the T4 ). And in the case of the T2 the line was closed for decades before the tramway was built on it. ( while they only closed the Coquetier Line, as it was called, to rebuild the tracks and adapt the infrastructure for the T4 )
*cries in Rome*
Hmm. I can easily imagine that, in a world where North American trans were unsignalized, we’d be blaming that and suggesting they’d be better with signals (and signal priority).
This reminds me of the tram trains in and around Karlsruhe in Germany.