I have the instigator and their target roll - the winner goes first, and we go around the table after that - instigators who surprise their target get advantage, or targets might get disadvantage
The fact that getting a surprise on someone while you already have an adventage on the initiative roll does kind of suck tho. There should be some secondary benefit for that. Off the top of my head, assassin rogue, twighlight Cleric, helm of awareness infusion and enhance ability spell all give you adventage on initiative roll.
That is a fair point. I especially feel for Assassin rogue, since it’s kind of their schtick, while for others it should be occasional enough that losing the benefit isn’t AS bad, and having advantage to offset being surprised is nice.
I have been doing something like this for a bit and have rarely run a surprise round RAW exactly because one side getting its own round is not cool, bro
I wouldn't say they are good, better perhaps than 5e. They still have some silly elements like a character with a steath check of 30 surprised an opponent and then rolls a one while the opponent and everyone else rolls higher so effectively even with a 30 stealth everyone knew combat was going to start.
Definitely still possible. Though statistically less likely from the sounds of the new stealth rules that have just been revealed. I can live with one in 400 ambushes having some kind of odd tell that warns the prey.
@@DM-Timothy There is still the potential that a player acts without knowing what is going on and still effectively losing a turn. I feel like the 3.5 version was better than both 5.0s and so I don't understand why they didn't just revert it to 3.5.
@@bradleyhurley6755 it has been a minute. A quick google makes it look like 3.5e surprise rules are basically 2014 5e rules only without separating into a specific round, and with limited action economy (not an option in 5e)
@@DM-Timothy I don't see any reason it shouldn't have been how surprise works in 5e. Mostly because I have yet to play in a game that doesn't use 3.5 surprise rules. I mean 80% of the people I have played with literally thinks that's how it works in 5e. The Barbarian is really the only one who messes with it.
@@bradleyhurley6755 Barbarian, Alert Feat, Rod of Alertness, and Weapon of Warning all mess with the narrative of it in my experience, but the 3.5 and 5e rules for surprise are incredibly similar, so it's not a surprise that people don't differentiate between them much.
I hate it, because you could ambush someone and still go after them in turn and that's shit rules. Nerfs for the sake of weak fragile dungeon masters do not spark joy.
While that was still a possibility under the old rules, I agree it’s more possible now. Admittedly, the reverse of BEING ambushed and getting to act before the ambush takes place seems to make players far happier..
@@DM-TimothyBut does it? I mean technically you tell the players to roll initiative.... Player doesn't see anyone because they had failed their perception check. Nothing happens and player basically has to skip their turn waiting for something to happen.
@@bradleyhurley6755 different narration at different tables and all, but if we are rolling initiative, I want characters to know there’s something about to go down, even if that’s “preternatural sense” or the old weapon of warning that allowed them to roll before anything else happened. Rarely do people skip a turn if they know init has been called. Defense is a legitimate choice when the enemy are hidden but something seems “off” to warn you a fight is imminent.
@@DM-Timothy I still think as the player who got a high initiative and could only say I take the defense action is a let down to perhaps the next player who may get all their actions.
@@bradleyhurley6755 That's totally fair. It's far from ideal. But it happens in the 3.5 rules and base 5e rules, too, so I'm still looking for a better alternative. These rules solve a lot of problems, even if they don't solve them all.
I agree that maybe an extra bullet point could have been, on the surprise condition, you cannot use reactions until the start of your first turn
I think that would have been nice. Personally. :)
I have the instigator and their target roll - the winner goes first, and we go around the table after that - instigators who surprise their target get advantage, or targets might get disadvantage
Thanks Tim!
My pleasure!
The fact that getting a surprise on someone while you already have an adventage on the initiative roll does kind of suck tho. There should be some secondary benefit for that. Off the top of my head, assassin rogue, twighlight Cleric, helm of awareness infusion and enhance ability spell all give you adventage on initiative roll.
That is a fair point. I especially feel for Assassin rogue, since it’s kind of their schtick, while for others it should be occasional enough that losing the benefit isn’t AS bad, and having advantage to offset being surprised is nice.
I have been doing something like this for a bit and have rarely run a surprise round RAW exactly because one side getting its own round is not cool, bro
I wouldn't say they are good, better perhaps than 5e. They still have some silly elements like a character with a steath check of 30 surprised an opponent and then rolls a one while the opponent and everyone else rolls higher so effectively even with a 30 stealth everyone knew combat was going to start.
Definitely still possible. Though statistically less likely from the sounds of the new stealth rules that have just been revealed. I can live with one in 400 ambushes having some kind of odd tell that warns the prey.
@@DM-Timothy There is still the potential that a player acts without knowing what is going on and still effectively losing a turn.
I feel like the 3.5 version was better than both 5.0s and so I don't understand why they didn't just revert it to 3.5.
@@bradleyhurley6755 it has been a minute. A quick google makes it look like 3.5e surprise rules are basically 2014 5e rules only without separating into a specific round, and with limited action economy (not an option in 5e)
@@DM-Timothy I don't see any reason it shouldn't have been how surprise works in 5e. Mostly because I have yet to play in a game that doesn't use 3.5 surprise rules.
I mean 80% of the people I have played with literally thinks that's how it works in 5e. The Barbarian is really the only one who messes with it.
@@bradleyhurley6755 Barbarian, Alert Feat, Rod of Alertness, and Weapon of Warning all mess with the narrative of it in my experience, but the 3.5 and 5e rules for surprise are incredibly similar, so it's not a surprise that people don't differentiate between them much.
I hate it, because you could ambush someone and still go after them in turn and that's shit rules. Nerfs for the sake of weak fragile dungeon masters do not spark joy.
While that was still a possibility under the old rules, I agree it’s more possible now. Admittedly, the reverse of BEING ambushed and getting to act before the ambush takes place seems to make players far happier..
@@DM-TimothyBut does it? I mean technically you tell the players to roll initiative.... Player doesn't see anyone because they had failed their perception check. Nothing happens and player basically has to skip their turn waiting for something to happen.
@@bradleyhurley6755 different narration at different tables and all, but if we are rolling initiative, I want characters to know there’s something about to go down, even if that’s “preternatural sense” or the old weapon of warning that allowed them to roll before anything else happened. Rarely do people skip a turn if they know init has been called. Defense is a legitimate choice when the enemy are hidden but something seems “off” to warn you a fight is imminent.
@@DM-Timothy I still think as the player who got a high initiative and could only say I take the defense action is a let down to perhaps the next player who may get all their actions.
@@bradleyhurley6755 That's totally fair. It's far from ideal. But it happens in the 3.5 rules and base 5e rules, too, so I'm still looking for a better alternative. These rules solve a lot of problems, even if they don't solve them all.