Why don’t deck builders gap pressure treated decking?
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- When installing pressure treated decking boards, install them tight to each other.
Why?
Pressure treated lumber shrinks as it dries.
After the wood dries out, the resulting gap between decking boards will be too big.
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You're installing that board upside down.
Bad advice. I’ve been building decks with PT lumber for over 40 years. My own deck is 23 years old. I spaced the boards and they’re still fine.
Either you're too busy to read your messages or you just don't want to talk to me but I just talked to you 35 times about pressure treated wood and what I'm going through right now
This guy lives in a box. Another basic minded “general” CTR with a tool belt. No clue why this “advice” is counter intuitive in a cold weather climate.
As primarily a deck builder, always gap your boards. Those boards will not shrink enough to make that big of a difference. A 1/2” gap would still be fine. Just means your lumber will last longer.
You nail that catspaw into every joist like that, water will get in the holes you create with that catspaw, and it’ll rot.
Don’t give bad advice.
!00% In Michigan 3 foot of snow every month over 6 months i wanted a 1/2 inch gap
Your absolutely right. I build in the Caribbean and lost a pressure treated deck in 5 years because of lack of spacing.
I don't like a huge gap. This PT Southern Pine gaps out to about 3/8. Big enough for rain and snow to pass along with some debris. As for the chisel mark, that's not going to allow anything to rot. Not only is the lumber rated for ground contact where microbes can get at it, but rot occurs when water (liquid or vapor) gets into a system and can't get out.
This gaps out to 3/8. I don't know the dynamics of snow melt and passage through deck boards, but assuming a gradual melt, I don't think that 1/8 is a big deal. It's a bigger deal for chair legs and comfort in bare feet. And for production. I don't need to do the extra step of gapping something that'll gap itself.
Nah mate you’ll be fixing every job you’ve done for life, everything about what your saying is wrong.
@crhcarpentry is right, don’t give shit advice to people.
As a Non Carpenter for the past 26 years, I can say “I didn’t know that”
Then go to the comments and see something I also didn’t know, then I realize you opened up a battle field full of carpenters, and self proclaimed carpenters. They are livid 😂
And now I don’t know what to believe
Lotta self-appointed super dupers out there. - I'll admit that I've never gotten "dry" PT lumber, but it appears it's possible if some of these people are to be believed. - Long story short, just check with your supplier. Tell them you saw some goofball on the internet slamming PT Southern Pine boards tight and see what their recommendation is.
I did this last fall. Had nothing but moaning and complaining from a friend. He came back in June. Perfectly gapped lol.
@@myfixituplife As a painter that stained dozens of decks, I think you are wrong. The expansion gap you suggest is too small. It gets filled with leaves and debris. I try to clean out the gaps with a putty knife and can't get it between the boards which leads to rot.
@@donnash5813 I hear you. I love everyday, real life, down the road experience. Here's my take: Where I build (SE PA) we have deciduous trees--big leaves--and not a lot of conifers (kibbles and bitz) and while the gaps can fill in certain conditions (lots of shade, NO maintenance) most everything either lays on top or passes through. - Any deck without proper annual attention--it doesn't have to be anything major, just a quick power wash--will see the debris you find pass through or get pushed away. - As for getting a putty knife through the boards, that's never been a problem with the lumber I get. It comes 25% or better and shrinks to 3/16 or so across the board.
Ive done it both ways, and thankfully the customers were happy with the results. I think a larger gap up north is a better idea for leaves, snow, etc.
Phewwwww....Sometimes we get lucky. We get a 3/8-inch gap here that seems to work for all seasons and locations. For really under cover decks, they need to be blown off from time to time.
My Neighbors did this and, after 2 years, had to pay a fella to take every other board out and cut 1/2" off router the edge and reinstall . " looked like a lake on the deck when it rained"
Yep. A lady paid me once to kinda do that. I put 2 saw blades on skil saw and ran it down every joint. She bought me 2 saws also.
Two saw blades? Creative.
@@myfixituplife how can you recommend this method with stories like these?
@@jonathonfrederick2062 he cant, he's running out of excuses. Help him come up with one please.
Because who ever laid them butted them together tight while they were bone ass dry, on a bone dry ass day.
And if the boards are partially dried out when you lay them, if you don’t leave expansion gaps, they will buckle! Also, narrow gaps trap rotting plant material which holds moisture. In icy conditions, damage may occur and despite being treated, the wood is more likely to rot.
Always leave 3-5mm gap when laying decking like this!!
We probably don't get the same species or moisture content of lumber. This is pressure treated Southern Pine in the US. If you gap this at installation, you'll end up with 1/2-inch or larger gaps when they dry out. Too big for my liking.
@@myfixituplife the solution is to get a moisture meter. It all depends on time of year, where the wood is stored, how much rain there has been. I have had the materials for 100ft of cant rail fencing sat outside for a month. It’s been bone dry, apart from a downpour a week ago. The weather has been hot and sunny and I boarded the fence on Friday. Three days later and most of the 6” boards have shrunk by 1/4”. It’s difficult to air 200 feather boards, but decking is much easier.
@@IIIIIIPETEIIIIIII've found the best thing to do is to lay the boards on the deck and let the sun dry them out for about a week.
@@Truckn_G I find the best thing to achieve that is to lay battens between layers of boards and strap the battens to keep the bundle tight. That way they get to dry out gently without warping. Loose laying on a deck can result in warping and buckling, but you could weight them down with something heavy. If stacking isn’t an option, probably best to just screw them down.
You've never seen pressure-treated wood buckle because they didn't leave a gap. I've been putting them together tight for 30 years and it's never happened. I would have been getting all kinds of callbacks if that was true. Everybody that puts a gap ends up with an excessive Gap when it dries out.
Best advice ever. I’ve built hundreds of P/T decks. Ensure what side of the board goes up first to prevent cupping and it’s much better to toe nail then face nail, but this is actually better with no gaps if the moister content of the boards are very obvious. Face nailing of a dryer board may result in squeaking once expansion & contraction occurs multiple times and some small splitting. But over all yes it is better to bring the. Boards together tight. 👍
Experience and knowledge for the win! Thank you.
As someone with 40 years experience, you can never predict how much they will shrink, and 1/8" is not enough. Even 1/4" a lot of tree debris and leaves will get caught. I leave an 1/8th inch, and end up with 1/4-3/8" but even 1/2" is fine, and is what I try to do on my own decks.
I'm in 30. I'm also in a number of Facebook groups with deck builder who think their sh++ don't stink. They post pictures of PT decks with miters all over the place. They 100%look awesome when the leave. But two weeks later...forget it. - I also work alone and am a fiend for saved steps. The PT I get gaps 3/8 all day and I have to do nothing. Nothing is faster than something. - Still, 40-years is beast mode. Keep hammerin'. I'm happy to follow along. Chime in any time
You can sort of predict how much they Will shrink, just measure the moisture!
1/2" is toe stub city!
@@myfixituplifeThe building trade is the same in England..full of smart arse dickheads.. every one better than the last...keep smashing it 🙌
Not building a dock. 2 x 6 decking. Toenail to but side-by-side you indeed every single time will get 1/8" shrinkage with fresh PT pine. Will leave a uniform gap. A half inch is way to excessive. Just enough for a child to get some fingers caught or someone to get a toe caught + aesthetics!
I finished cap should never be wider than a #2 pencil.
I can confirm this. I recently built my uncles deck this way with heavy "wet" boards and butted them all together. Now that it's dried out a few weeks later it has excellent gapping
Outstanding!
@@myfixituplife Like a farmer in his field...🙏💓😊
well you keep on building them the way you like. Myself I use a Camo tool which gaps the boards uniformly and you don't see any screws.
I will. If you're using a Camo tool and wet Southern Pine, your gaps are about 1/2-inch. Might no be able to see screw heads under tables and chair and outdoor rugs, but you can see the mud under the deck. - And maybe it's OK, bit I don't see how Camos resist cupping.
Installed them nice and tight last summer. This summer it’s been hot without any rain, and some of the gaps are good 1/2”. Keep ‘em tight boys and girls.
Tight is right. Nice work. We sure could use some rain around here too.
So this is the guy who's decks I have to keep rebuilding.
Yeah, that's me. You must be Quantum Man or something because mine only last 30-years or so.
You must be the guy that keeps breaking all the children's toes.
😂😂😂😂😂
he clearly doesnt need you lmao
You have to rebuild every deck ever built
Use a standard 16D framing nail as a gap on fresh PT green boards.
You can. You'll get a gap that's at least 1/2-inch, maybe closer to 5/8, which is too big for me. The wood gaps itself and I like the look of a 3/8-inch gap, so I skip fumbling around with nails.
@@myfixituplife
“Half inch to 5/8 with a 16”???
Nonsense.
Deck boards do not need a half inch gap which is what your ending up with after a few years. You put them together and when they shrank at leaves a perfect gap. I've been doing it for 30 years and I see what a lot of my decks look like years later. There's no advantage to having a huge ass Gap where things fall down in there. Water has no problem flowing through.
A 5.5” deck board will not shrink a half inch.
@@abc-ed1nrI been installing pressure treated boards for 50 years. Never seen them shrink that much. A 16 penny sinker is about right. If it’s in the shade all day you can use a fatter 16 penny common mail. Too small of a gap collects crap.
If the gap is too small, the boards will rot from the sides as water and debris is trapped between them. The gap should be large enough that the debris will fall through or be easily cleaned out.
100% This is built into the supply chain--AMAZING THIS IS POSSIBLE--for PT Southern Pine. - Also, it won't rot. PT SP is rated for ground contact. Debris build up is a maintenance issue.
I'm currently doing a DIY project. I'm replacing the deckboard and reusing the foundation. I've been told to butt the boards up tight, some people DIY content creators say gap them. I live in Maryland, its hot & humid here in the summer and cold in the winter. My deck is about 20 inches off the ground. I havent fastened the boards down yet. I'm cutting them, placing them down to let them dry out. Then I'm going to paint them on both sides. Thanks for posting.
I've built in MD. I'm not that far away from you in PHL. - I've also built "decks" that I've put in the ocean as swim floats and docks on Cape Cod. - But 'em. - They'll shrink and look great. - For my re-skins, I tape the joists to cover the old holes.
That's not always true. I pulled deck boards tight to begin with and the rainwater tends to pool on the surface even on seasoned decks...i switched to using a 10d nail as a spacer and it hasn't failed me since. Rather have a quarter inch gap than no gap at all.
I'm 100% not everybody nor everywhere. If what you're doing works for you and you clients, damn the torpedoes. The end result--which is what resulted on this deck--is what you say. Keep going.
@@myfixituplife blah blah blah.
I'll stick to having a gap / large gap then a possible hairline crack thank you much.
@@brianwoods6403 you do you bro. Have a nice day.
What I noticed that if the wood is dry I gap it. If wet I make it tight. 🤪 n again it all depends what day it is m.t.w.t.f.s.s. 😆
If ur boards cupped. It’s because you placed them up side down. I built decks for 10 years. I always pulled them tight and never had that problem. Only on the instant where I placed one upside down because It was hard to determine what side to place up in the end grain.
I've been in the trades for 25+ yrs. Always gap your boards! Installing them tight will result in improper/irregular gapping and cause more moisture problems, cupping/warping.
Where are you in the trades? What're you working with? And how is it possible you don't know wet wood contracts?
I'm primarily in remodeling and building. There are many tools available that even for wood installation have a preset spacing tool, it's a toenail application. Camo tool, kreg are two examples. Putting the boards tight isn't guaranteed you get equal spacing. No two boards will shrink the same. It's better to have a 5/16 gap instead of inconsistencies. Plus certain codes require you to gap your boards 👍
@@erichilyard3565 either this guy lives in the desert, or he is trolling for clicks and its working. There are lots of internet fools now saying the wrong thing just for views and comments.
@@erichilyard3565I mean, if you're using a camo screws you need a gap just to get the screws in.
How would gapping the boards make the gaps more consistent? With your logic then not gapping the boards should have the same effect. Think about it, if you gap the boards 1/32", you're saying gapping the boards 1/2" instead will somehow mysteriously make the gaps more consistent as they dryout?
And when it dry's out they tend to warp and push against each other and initiate movement throughout the deck.
A gap will allow the deck floor to move individually.
So i repair is needed it will allow the new board fit with fighting the old boards.
When it's dry, they contract and remain right where they are.
That doesn;t make nay sense at all - as they dry they shrink, moving away from each other so how would they push against each other?
An advice worth exactly what I paid for!
OK. And, who cares?
I’m up the northeast.
If it’s in the heat of summer, I run the 5/4 all tight when installing.
It it’s in the cold winter I space them with a 8D common.
Been working this way for me for decades
Interesting. An 8 isn’t a giant nail. And I have broken many a frozen board off the stack. Good call.
Actually your gap size should take a couple of things into account. First is debris buildup from things like surrounding tree leaf & seed litter. So many forget to account for this simple, yet, most important aspect to keep from creating debris buildup which creates moisture issues & eventually contributes to rot. I also totally agree with the comments on using a cats claw or other tools that might tear up or score the wood surface in manner contributing to rot. Smooth wood vs. rough surfaces shed water more readily. With that said, if your gaps are not large enough debris can actually get easily stuck becoming wedged & at times extremely difficult to remove, contributing to moisture buildup & rot. Things like leaf & seed stems are notoriously problematic, even with blowers, brooms, & pressure washers…
Second is to account for zoning & whether there are impervious surface considerations. Gap sizing is sometimes taken into account in allowances to drop square footage impervious calculations on a site, with gaps large enough sometimes allowing for lowered square footage for impervious surface totals & thus allowing you to develop more area for construction if needed. This is, however, totally dependent on local codes & their interpretation.
I appreciate all your observations. I also appreciate that you're civil and for all the "you're dumb" dummies listening, listen to this guy. - That said, I politely disagree. - Debris build-up is a maintenance issue. There are a million variables, But if you have a 100-year old Doug Fir over your deck shedding needles 24/7, you need to blow the deck off when you mow your lawn. I'm remodeling a deck right now with similar conditions and it's like it's raining on me all day. A sewer grate would get clogged. - Ground contact PT does rot, but it takes decades. - As for zoning, I hear you. I'm not sure gap sizing is a contributing factor. I think it's an either/or: A deck is impervious. A deck isn't impervious. At least that's my experience. - Either way, thank you. Please chime in any time.
Ive heard both ways which is confusing as a greenhorn homeowner but im redoing an old deck with original joist so I wanna keep from the gap minimal to prolong the joist long as possible
Hopefully, I can help. Pressure treated Southern Pine arrives at your doorstep at something like 25% moisture content. This is by design. Slam them tight and it is INEVITABLE they'll dry out to a 3/8-inch gap. Also--and we have another video on this--DO NOT miter your top caps. For the same reason--moisture leaving the wood changes its shape--the miter will open at the bottom and close at the top.
The end grain of this board is upside down, you should always put the arch up
Sorry dude, that's a myth. Choose the best face side and run with it.
@@myfixituplife it’s no myth brother, one it cups and traps water two the edges become uneven because the curl up
In my experience thats not a rule that can be adhered to. Often times there is damage on the boards. You have to put the best side up, otherwise there would be far too much waste . Also, to my understanding, "bark side up" is preferred for decks that don't get a lot of sun and therfore stay moist. If they are getting sun and dry out they will cup upward. .
@@timbarry5080if you lay them with the crown oriented properly. They wont cup to hold water.
They may still cup but the center will be high so the rot causing water will run off.
@@myfixituplifeapparently you have 30 years experience of doing it wrong. If you believe this is a myth.
My favorite part of the video was the aaaarg at the beginning. Sums up my experience in the construction industry
I hear that!
💯 correct!! My deck has this type of wood and once the wood dries out, the gaps are perfect at 1/8” to 3/16”. Also, sink your screw 1/8” below the surface or they will protrude once the wood is dry.
With you all the way. And yes, just a slight countersink and you're good to go. Keep up the good work.
Never sink screws that deep, rainwater will collect in the countersink and hasten decay. Leave them just flush with the surface.
Install hidden fasteners. No issues. Rows of screws look terrible
We build a lot of decks in Winnipeg, MB. We always leave a 1/8” space. All the decks still look great.
You're way west and north of me. What kind of decking do you use?
@@myfixituplife our weather here fluctuates so much. We go from -35 degrees celsius to plus 30 degrees Celsius. The lumber is also hit or miss. Some pieces are really wet like you said and others are really dry.
@@qualityonebuildingsolution802 Interesting. Our weather fluctuates, of course but the lumber-at least from my supplier-isn’t in their yard long enough to even have the top boards on the bunk drier than the ones from inside. It’s all high moisture content PT Southern Pine. What species do you get up there?
@@myfixituplife I'm calling bs on the moisture content the center will always be wetter then the outside. Moisture meter will prove this. Just a known fact. Only way it will not be is if it comes right out of the treatment place to the jobsite the same day. Once it hit the outside dryer air and its in bunks the outside starts to dry and inside is wet still.
So what about cold temperature and snow. What happened when it expands 😮
It expands. It doesn’t expand to maximum moisture content. Remember, snow isn’t liquid water until it melts, then it usually melts slowly. And drains through the gaps. The wood never goes back to from-the-mill moisture content.
@@myfixituplife 🤞
@@kirkwise1107 Don't listen to this guy. Talk to the treatment place and get the truth.
Interesting comments. I have built two decks on our house. The first one, on the front, I gapped the boards at ~1/8". After several years, the gaps now range from 3/16" to 3/4". The next deck,, on the rear entrance, I did not gap but pulled the boards tight together before screwing down. Gaps are now 1/8" to 3/16" and look much nicer. I buy my PT wood from Home Depot and it is WET in the store. Lifting successive boards, you will find moisture on the surface. Note: for posts and rails I get cedar or redwood because PT wood warps and twists way too much. (Note 2: eastern Wyoming so no trees, no leaves, and no codes.)
Outstanding preface to the conversation. In Eastern Wyoming--where we will be running through on I-80 next week--you are not getting (I'm pretty sure) "wet" Southern Pine. You're getting a Douglas fir product and the criteria is different. I really appreciate you adding this to the conversation.
I think it best to still gap. My neighbour didn’t do that a few years ago and had a low ground level deck. He is having some issues. My deck is 2 to 3 feet off grade but was completely sealed off due to animals burrowing under. I ended up having to replace all the boards and also installed joist tape and then added some west ward facing vents with metal rodents screening on the east and west sides to let the deck breathe
Yes, a deck needs to have some air flow. Still, I'm surprised. I've built docks and swim floats like this and thrown them in the ocean and gaps still opened up.
Wouldn't they swell again when wet and make it so there is no gap
They will for sure. All decking, even composite, does. But they'll never swell to full moisture content. That's the entire point of this method.
@@myfixituplife composite decking doesn't absorb moisture or swell when wet. it expands and contracts to temperature changes but always requires a gap. I think the issue is that people want a gap even during the rainy season.
@@myfixituplife You are wrong. IF the board is dryer when you put it in and it get wet then it will expand to father then when you put it in. Proven fact in the building trades groups. Good composite will not swell in moisture the cheap junk that is just glue and press wood will. And no not all decking will swell. Mine doesn't swell at all and it barely expand and contract either. I have aluminum decking. IT is one of the only one that doesn't get hot when the sun it beating on it.
This is what I have been trying to explain to my Dad, yet he thinks that I should leave a gap because the heat will cause the boards to expand.
Now that I have stumbled across this video, I will show him with the hope that he will believe why it is better to have the boards touching together. 🤙🏼🙂🤙🏼❤️
@@ultimatefishkeeping Yup. There are some guys who were taught to gap them, but the reality is ALL WET LUMBER shrinks. And the PT we get comes super-soaked. It-and this includes all miters-is going to shrink. Miters will open up. There’s a way around this, though.
@myfixituplife Thankyou very much for sharing this information.
I shall be sure to explain to my Dad.
I understand. I know a joiner who believes that the side with the groves should face up, whereas I know that the correct way is to have the groves facing down and the flat side facing up. 🤙🏼🙂🤙🏼❤️
@@ultimatefishkeeping “grooves”? You mean Annual rings? - That doesn’t matter. Pick the good side of the board and put that up. Fasten properly and you should be good to go.
@myfixituplife. My apologies. Yes, indeed, I do mean Annual Rings.
In the U.K. things are said different. 🤙🏼🙂🤙🏼❤️
When you buy pressure treated wood, you have no way of knowing how much it may have already dried out. Perhaps you can weigh the boards. Last time I bought pressure treated lumber to redo my old deck, the boards varied considerably in weight. I decided to simply lay them down without attaching them. Only after they dried did I screw them in.
You're not the only one to bring this up. If that works for you, terrific. But no contractor alive can stay in business doing this. And those boards were twisted AF.
Variability of grain density in each board changes the weight a bit too. Cant you get a moisture meter that doesnt stab the wood?
Depending on the grain of the treated timber the gaps will end up varying in width. I only use kiln dried decking or a composite material.....and use hot dipped galvanised screws......
Hot dipped are for real. These are Spax screws, # 10 x 2 1/2-inch. The coating is rated just below stainless steel and they're 10,000 times easier to work with because they're not soft. I can't really get KDAT decking because of the volumes I'd have to buy it in, but that's a good call on your end too.
My first was installed like this. Being outside, they never dried out and cupped and held water and slush. Second deck, they wanted to do it that way. It never dried out like I told them. Collected water like I told them it would. Told them to get their asses back there and do it the way I wanted in the first place. Alls good now. Problem is, builders think it srinks but never go back to look. Meybe in Arizona, but Im in the northeast.
It shrinks significantly in Minnesota.
Cupping is because the installed the boards upside down.
We're in PA and this deck--and every other one I've installed--gaps to 3/8-inch in about 2-weeks. Never swells closed again.
Cupping is a myth. It seems like it makes sense, but it doesn't. I checked this deck this week and the boards are all flat.
How old is that deck?
#1. Gapping does not increase decking life for any lumber. All wood, treated or not, will shrink enough in 12 weeks to allow for water shed.
#2. You are correct about punturing joists. There is a joist pry tool made to utilize physics that straightens decking without damaging joists. It costs about $100 and requires only seconds to use.
#3. The most important step almost every installer ingnores is the most important. It is crowning the cup. Nearly all boards have a natural cup when examined by cut-end. This is due to wood growth in relation to rings and becomes more exaggerated as the wood dries. Almost every contractor orients decking with the wrong test. The aesthetic quality of deck boards should be secondary to cup orientation.
@@BrianLawrence-vk3pu 1 - I love that you speak in list format. Gold. - 2 - I’ve been using a chisel for 35-years. I haven’t found a situation yet where I needed a different tool. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just saying what I see on all my decks. 4 - As for cupping, I do disagree, Yes, it makes sense, but in real life put the best side up and keep rolling.
We've installed them tight for years and we build in southeast Georgia..and correct they create a gap when they dry ..
Nice. Those deck boards you're using were probably grown and milled not far from where you build. Good stuff.
I would never put them on tight. Use a nail for a spacer. About 1/8. They will dry out and shrink but never will be too tight
They'll never be too tight doing it like this and I don't have to mess around with nails and spacers.
Hell no, always tight. If I didn't make them tight I'd have 1/4" spacing, I put my decking tight tight and end up with a nice 3/32 gap.
@@myfixituplife BS your just lazy if you get a dryer board and space tight and it gets wet it will be to tight. Think yoiu really need to go back and talk to some good builders and lumber some lumber companies and get yourself set straight.
A lot will depend on time of year the deck is being built
I guess. Not for me. I get deck packages in winter that are so wet they're frozen together.
You are 100% correct. Those deck boards shrink a lot over time . If you gap them they will get even bigger. And yes i use a chisel to move them over. Looks like you came from the same school of building that I did.
Yessir. All day. Keep up the good work.
I see you gapped your words
And driving a chisel into the edge of board doesn’t leave a hole where moisture can penetrate and deteriorate it over time?
@@freddymax5256it does. Leaves a hole to trap water and dirt
Wish the installers for my 62’ long raised pine deck (varies in depth from 9’ to 14’; with three sets of stairs) had put them in tight together. I have gaps ranging from 1/8th” to almost 1/2”. I live on a forested property, so all kinds of debris gets stuck between the deck boards. Leaf blower doesn’t do a very good job in removing them, but pressure washer does. Eventually, I’ll replace them with composite.
Most of us don't build forested properties. All the same, composite gaps to about 1/4-inch, uniformly. Changing the decking might not solve your problem.
That chisel is creating a great spot for the rot to start.
Not. No it isn't.
Uofudavid
You are the kind of people no one wants at the job site.
I know a few like you, they claim to know everything about everything, and when I check their work. It looks mediocre.
@@myfixituplife Actually it is causing a place for water to sit and get into the lumber. IF you ever have tore off old decking you see that the only place that is bad is where the screw went in to the lumber. Your lazy and don't want to us the deck board straighten they have out now. Do it right or don't do it at all and don't saw things that are not right. Your a hack at best.
@@myfixituplife Sorry, but he's right on that point - you've just penetrated the upper surface of the joist RIGHT where moisture is going to get deposited
@@somenteasescrituras4064 He didn't claim to know everything he's just making a solid point. Life is much better when you're not bitter and open to being wrong sometimes 😜
It all depends on location and if the deck is covered or not in my opinion. It’s definitely easier to not set the gap but if the deck is uncovered the gap should be larger to allow for debris to fall through.
This lands in a personal preference zone. This deck is in a wood area--not directly under trees, but lots of leaf debris close--and it's not clogged. Hitting the deck with a blower from time to time might be a solution, too.
@@myfixituplife I have to disagree with that. There’s not a one size fits all for putting down deck boards some situation’s warrant more of a gap. But as I said, this is my opinion
Do not follow this guy’s instructions in the northwest we get enough rain to where the heck expansion during the winter will rip the deck apart
I've ben hoping somebody from the PNW would chime in and offer some input. We use high moisture content Southern Pine. It dries and shrinks leaving a 3/8-inch gap that never fully closes back up, even with snow. - I know your framing lumber is incised fir, but what about the decking? PT fir too? Cedar? - All those would need gaps.
Another keyboard warrior you could have said , depending on the area you're from. I'm from south California where they will shrink 1/2 inch at least baking in the sun .
@@myfixituplifeI’m putting on cedar in the PNW (Idaho) next week. So gap? I think so, would love experienced opinions.)
@trick58 always gap with decking. In washington State, not doing so will have tremendous consequences. I can only imagine it's the same in idaho
I built a ton of decks in Vancouver and we always gapped 1/16 or 1/8 and never had any problems. I moved to Ontario and all decking is installed right like this and exactly as described, the decking shrinks but doesn’t expand back over the content that it came with so therefore doesn’t over swell causing cupping or cracking.
If it’s not a species related detail then it must be the environmental moisture in the PNW means the wood doesn’t shrink as much as opposed to here where it will dry out much more.
Just my thoughts on this.
Here in england I install with a 10mm 3/8” gap as with amount of rain we get that gap will become 6mm - 1/4” in no time. If pulled in tight where does the expansion have room to go.
Using a flooring joist clamp you can easily lay, space and clamp 4 - 5 boards at a time without damaging the board edges breaching the dipped anti rot coat.
Hey England! You certainly do have a higher dew point year round than us, give or take, and even though we're on a parallel with Lisbon, you're way milder. What species of lumber are you using. What are the chemical retention levels? What's the chemical? Is it rated for ground contact? Can we discuss this in a pub over a pint?
@@myfixituplife mainly softwood as customer wants to keep cost down. Sometimes hemlock and on occasion composite recycled plastic/timber mix but with its hardiness and straightness its expense.
Using joist clamps and clamping rows at a time with a few temporary bearers secured though the gaps to keep them down to stop then lifting during clamping the process doesn’t take that much longer really
I always advise do not paint with decking paint as it look great when done but looks tatty 2 years later and the you have paints it each year. Far better to let it weather a year than when good and dried out coat with a clear or tinted wood preserver as if soaks in as opposed to painting with minimal absorption and the remainder sitting on top waiting be worn off.
I’d never fix direct to ground and the boards can never dry out.
I’ve installed over existing concrete slabs but always on composite or plastic 2 x 2 bearers to keep them out the puddled water. Can get away with 2 x 1 if run off is good but often not if DIY install. Best way is to veiw after rain and see how big/deep the puddles are.
Always gap your boards a minimum of three eights inch. You will end up with approximately half inch cap which is perfect. Let dirt debris and especially small leaves and twigs go through.
Absolutely not. Tight as possible will get you 1/4-3/8+ once dried.
Wet PT SY pine gaps 3/8s by doing nothing. Where I build, a 1/2-inch gap may not be noticed, but it's not the product I want to deliver.
Yup.
Don't forget to turn the crown in the grain of the wood up . Years down the road it will cup up & hold water .
@@tomthumb4767 Nope. Yeah, it makes sense, but in real life, pick the clean side and GO.
this dude IS right ! I've been decking since 1975 and the very BEST advice is lay your boards spread out on the deck for 2 to 3 weeks if at all possible to dry or in a garage layed out on blocks for air flow..(new boards also shrink in length).. then STILL do not gap them ..1/4 inch is what u want and they will still gap themselves as they cure ..if u install kiln wet boards w gaps , the ends will shrink too and u end up w over 1/2 inch which is bad.
Couple things, I'm glad you agree with butting them tight. It works. That you've been in the game since '75...you should be given a Smokey and the Bandit Trans Am. What an achievement. If you're spreading out your deck package (which I cannot do) how do you keep the boards from twisting as they dry?
I've been installing decks for about 159 yrs now , I pressure treat all my own lumber that I grow in my back yard.
Yes you do! You should look in the Facebook comments for the "Losers and Virgins" guy. You'd be fast friends.
Using copper-naphalate I hope.😎
@@chrisperrien7055 Not with SP. It’s treated through and through.
I live in the Midwest and I can say that after two years of a deck being down with covid era PT lumber...we just had to have ours redone to remove massive gaps. When first laid it was lovely 1/8 in gaps, but after the seasons...it opened up in some places to .5 to .75 in which is unsafe and ugly. The covid era wood of all varieties was VERY wet and of lower quality in general. It still sucks but its slowly getting better.
Just that you link Covid to your deck, no. Yes, there were interruptions in logging and other meta economic issues with a years log runway, yes. But the retention levels--to my knowledge--saw no changes.
I set em butt tight and spray about 75 rnds of .223 for drainage, never works but its fun and the customer never complains...to my face. 😊
Drainage matters How you get there is up to you! Aesthetics are personal.
Awesome comment 👏👏
Built tons of decks. Cedar, PT always leave an 8" gap . No problems.
AN 8-INCH GAP! - Kidding. I believe you. - I leave a 16-d nail for cedar (that's how old I am by the way; it also works). PT where I work...spacing is a waste of time. - I have little doubt you do good work and care for your customers. The last thing I'm gonna do is harp on 1/8th. - Keep 'em comin'
He puts they tight so his high heels don’t get caught between the boards.
Can't have our stilettos (or chair legs) caught.
I’m just a DIY guy, but I’ve built two decks. I did not gap the first one. Sure enough the boards did shrink and there was a big enough gap for water to get through, but I had a maple tree nearby that puts out those little whirligigs every year. Those would get stuck in the gaps and were a real pain to clean out. So, second time around I gapped using a #2 pencil. Problem solved and the gaps were not too big.
Your gaps have to be nearly an inch. No homeowner in their right mind would pay for that.
That's the way i do it too. Works perfectly when they shrink a bit. However, I put joist tape on every joist.
Joist tape is fine. - I've taken apart so many decades old decks--and our Code isn't asking or it--that I know this deck is there for a generation.
@@myfixituplife I replaced a 15 year old deck that was built by a contractor. The joists were very rotten, as well as the decking. Just trying to see that doesn't happen again by using the tape.
@@terryjones8360 Yessir. Belt and suspenders. - The towns I build in aren’t requiring it. It doesn’t mean tape isn’t a good call. - I do tape all my composite. decks. It hides the green lumber under the colored plastic.
he is absolutely correct! been a builder for over 40 years now, and this is the way we have always done it, and never had a problem, ever!
Yessir!!!!
Built many piers decked, many piers, which used pressure treated 2x6, on the sun they will shrink so we never used a gap unless had to square up a side, bang a 20 penny nail between each board to bring it around some. Comes back a month later or couple months maybe there’s always a little gap
You, sir, sound old school. I hand-banged many a deck (they were docks and swim floats we put in the ocean, but same idea). The hand-drive toe nail is a thing of utter beauty.
I wonder what the gap looks like now. Curious to see the difference.
It's 1/4-inch. I've been there.
You are correct regarding pt lumber. Different with cedar.
Yessir. Cedar's moisture content is way lower that PT. Gap it.
Thank you. I’m guessing you have experience with cedar? I’m putting it in next week.
Spot on. Our deck in FL is PT Southern Pine, butted up tight. Perfect gap once it dried.
ALL DAY!
I use a medium size Phillips head screw driver to gap in Central NY. Only built 4-5 decks (all for myself) but they all turn out fine and yes even with a wider than most gap they still collect leaves and such.
You've easily got a 1/2-inch gap. No good for me. Gathering media from the trees is a maintenance issue.
@@myfixituplife I just measured my gaps on a deck I built last Sept or Oct and I'm at a consistent 3/8". Even if they grow to a full 1/2" over the next year I'm fine with that. Makes for good drainage and plant material easily flushed out with a garden hose. There will be no mold or moss growing in my gaps.
As it dries out you will get a gap, but on the same reasoning the board will soak up moisture and swell. This then makes the boards twist and buckle over time.
No. They never achieve the saturation they arrive on site with.
@@myfixituplife Any absorbant material such as wood will adjust its water percentage to that of its surroundings, so in spring will shrink through summer, and in autumn (Fall) to winter it will soak up moisture. This means that the wood will vary in dimension at any given point in the year. Its sizr will never be constant.
@@roberttill3787 correct. However, it’ll never reach the saturation point it shows up with unless sea level rises.
My neighbor did his like this earlier winter. Can’t wait to see it in the summer.
I’m interested in all the details from species of lumber to location and climate to supply chain_
PT up in Canada is so wet, I also never leave gaps as when it dries has the perfect gap
100%. Are you in the East? Are you getting Southern Yellow Pine?
@@myfixituplife Yes in Ontario and it is yellow pine
Ok I get it. Maybe a good compromise is a small gap during install. I'm a remodeler and do a lot of decks ....never seen shrinkage alone as providing enough space for water passage. Theory is good ...just never saw it in practice.
Yo. "in practice" is what it's all about. Love this. - It's been a while, but we used to butt deck boards on swim floats we put IN THE OCEAN and they shrank like this deck we just built shrank. I was there last week. we have uniform 3/8-inch gaps all day. - However, questions: Where do you build? What species are you building with? Why won't they gap enough?
That's awesome that you are getting consistent results. I build in Western North Carolina. Lumber consistency is an issue here.....some boards are saturated and some bone dry and others in the middle.....from the same stack. I've been hired several times to cut gaps in decks that didn't shrink at all....and have seen many with huge gaps. Species is Southern Yellow Pine 5/4 decking . I see other comments saying same issues. Are you able to get consistent lumber with similar moisture content ? I have to judge each board I install....it's tedious and time consuming.
Experts have given their holy advice. Look build it the way you want. Being in the south pull them tight. If you're up north leave a gap. I agree with this man. They will dry and shrink. It doesn't really matter what advice you give because their is someone who always knows how to do it better.
I love it. The ExpertGods do speak from on high, "ex cathedra" if you like Catholic and Latin stuff. - Love your perspective. Chime in any time.
So few things . If you buy lumber and its rained in the last few days , then you can do smaller gap or no gap ( still wouldn't recommend no gap) . But the biggest issue is where you are . Im in central canadian praries , we have a humitity level that will dry you out faster then a women at a comic book convention . So when it rains , the wood soaks up alot of water and has a huge expantion . If your at one of the coasts , the would will keep a decent humitiy and wont expand as much when it rains
>>>women at a comic book convention
Love that FLEX impact driver
All day.
I use joist tape before installing the decking, helps save the joist from water penetration and freezing making them split. Also they make a tool that hooks on the joist so you can move/pry the decking where you want it. As for spacing, if wet I’ll put them close together, and if dry leave a gap. P/T moves all over the place and will shrink and expand a lot. It’s not consistent. It will get slippery as hell also if mold and mildew build up on it.
All good tips. I appreciate the input. I've never gotten PT dry enough to gap. Interesting.
@@myfixituplife Haha, me neither really. I did have some in the shop for awhile and used it to build a new step for a customer. that was pretty dry, he never had any issues with it.
yeah i don’t know i always leave a gap i’m in the midwest so weather is crucial here !
I hear you. We get all the weather, too here outside of Philadelphia. I get it. If it works for you, it works for you.
However most are poor these days so I’ll continue to gap mine to save on materials, along with allowing expansion and contraction. Peace and grace
I can agree to disagree. All day, brother. Keep up the good work and please chime in any time.
It may gap itself where you come from but in my own deck in Scotland i made my gaps minimal and some of the boards ended up being so close together they never gapped and the debris in between boards made them retain their moisture content until I actually cleaned them. And mine is a South facing deck.
You just don't want to recommend stuff like that to people in my area because their decks will rot prematurely, no two ways about it.
It does work where I build and what I build with. What part of my accent gave you the impression I was speaking globally about all lumber everywhere?
Always pre gap the wood, otherwise the boards will rip out if they do happen to swell. Boards move. I've installed many decks, and many hardwood floors. The difference is climate and moisture controll.
No, not at all correct.
These boards will not “happen to swell”. They WILL swell, they just won’t swell to out-of-the mill moisture content. Installing them tight means they contract, leaving ample room for them to swell without making a gap so large it eats chair legs and the wheels of the grill fall in between them.
@@joeadorjan1206 I agree. Also, flooring expands and contracts as a membrane. You leave the gaps around the perimeter, so the whole thing has room to move as a unit.
@@myfixituplife flooring (inside).decking outside. Flooring one piece. Decking 1000s of pieces. WTEF are you talking about. SMH
@@myfixituplife Not if it has been drying for more then 5 minutes lumber start to dry right out of the treatment process and the inside lumber of a bunk is wetter then the outside and will not have the same moisture content. Any good treatment place will tell you this and person ever buying PT lumber will know the closer to the center the wetter the lumber is in a bunk. The outside could be about dry and then inside is like you just pulled if from a pond.
I’ve built thousands of decks and he is 100 percent correct!If you leave a gap then in one year you will have huge gaps between each deck board.
1,000s of decks--dude, you are a beast. Love it and thank you.
I myself prefer to gap mine so that after alls said and done, I wind up with about a 1/4" gap between boards. This ensures the deck will drain well, and as a bonus it won't hold dirt, and sand anywhere near as much as pulling them tight. Where I live, the ease of keeping sand off the deck is a major selling point. If you can keep the sand off the deck, that's that much more kept out of the house !
Yes, if you gap it 1/4-inch, it'll be gapped 1/4-inch, when you're done. two weeks later, it'll be 1/2-inch. There's just no need to gap boards that'll shrink to a 3/8-inch gap without any extra steps required.
100% works every time with fresh from the yard deck boards. Only time I’ve seen it not work is when people have the material sitting on site for weeks and the boards are already shrunk or shrinking.
Yessir! 100% my experience. I've even had one package sit for months (don't ask) and the bunks were still high moisture content when I installed them. Maybe the top 2 layers had dried, but the center lumber was way wet. Thanks. Keep up the good work.
Built plenty of decks in the Piedmont of NC. Don’t gap the pressure treated wood, unless it’s already kiln dried, which is why half the comments about actually gapping were probably people using kiln dried wood, or the deck was built in a wet vegetative area. You just need to use experience and your best judgement. Sometime you should gap, sometimes you shouldn’t. When it’s wet pressure treated wood, you don’t gap, when it’s kiln dried already shrank pt wood, you should probably gap it.
Chime in any time. Nice work.
Nice pipes brother!! Hope you’re getting after it every SINGLE day!!
Yeah man. Thank you. Between work and working out, I try to get after it all the time. The gym - work balance isn’t what it could be, but it’s not nothing. - You too, bro. Hammer it.
This depends on your geographic area and how wet the wood is , this works sometimes not all the time
In theory, I guess. But the entire supply chain, as I understand it, is set up for wet wood to arrive on site and gap itself naturally. I don't know of a single lumber yard that keeps PT around long enough for it to get dry and still be in business.
Theyre set up to deliver wet wood to match the market. They won’t wait around for it to dry out as wood not moved doesn’t bring in $$.
CCA (chromium copper arsenate) treatment makes the wood harder and more brittle when dry as compared to untreated. It does the same to utility poles.
Want a great looking deck? Buy the lumber ahead of time, store it covered lightly for awhile to let it dry and then put it together.
Same for fence boards
All day!
I'm near Chicago and the weather swings wildly that you cannot install like this. When it rains alot the 5/4 wood swells shut and puddles appear, you have to gap the boards. when its dry for a week or so, i maybe have 3/16" gaps.
With Southern Pine? I'm near Philadelphia and your weather on the whole is probably more extreme than ours but we get the same swings.
If I build my own stuff, I use 2x6 lumber spaced 1/8 inch, screwed at an angle from the side (pre drilled) .
Prolly works great.
The same guys who say the catspaw marks and not gapping soaking wet deck boards are going to rot the deck are the same guys who put butyl tape on their joists then drill holes thrugh it while each season that tape loosens, then you have water penetration through the fastner holes and sitting under the tape rotting the joists faster. This mans technique is absolutely correct. This is what you do when you have built many decks and know what works and what doesnt. Sometimes the simple solution really is the best one. The butyl taping, gapping wet boards guys should stick to building decks on home depot deck blocks in their moms backyard.
Yessir. - Butyl tape isn't in our code yet and I think--while I love it for lots of things, like hiding PT under composite, and sealing a ledger against a masonry flashing (I like Spax Tape for this) the PT industry has got this down. -- Thank you. Chime in any time.
I made a flatbed for a pickup truck. I used a nail as a spacer. After a year there was like 1/2" between them.
100%. Same as my trailer...ack...30-years old...the guy who works on it for me wasn't even born when I bought it...Perfect for tires and trash an sittin' in the yard.
Been there done that. :) This installing method doesn't allow hidden screwing. Thx 🙏
Correct. It doesn't. But hidden fasteners aren't really hidden, they're just somewhere else. Not that I don't like them, I do. Using hidden fasteners with PT will yield a 1/2-inch + gap. Too wide for me, bro.
If that’s been stored outside in the damp wet then yes you can keep them fairly close, I’d never install them touching though unless they were soaking wet.
The pressure treated supply chain is a ballet of moisture saturation, storage and drying. Being stored outside (it's all stored outside) aint it.
For the deck boards themselves, use kiln dried if you can find it, it is worth it. It is not only drier, but better grade, looks better, looks more natural, dimensionally stable. That being said, it is hard to find perfect lumber. I square every board and having a small gap will hide imperfect or out of square boards.
I hear you. KDAT is also not rated for ground contact, I'm pretty sure. - I can't buy it other than in bulk.
I don't agree. I have a deck where they did it that way and the pressure treated wood did not shrink uniformly. Some boards got smaller but the gap was so small the dirt and leaves fit perfectly into the 1/32 of an inch opening and you have to fight to get it out. Some boards actually swelled back up over the years and pressed against each other in such a way I had to cut a gap to relieve the pressure. A small gap is better. The wood doesn't shrink that much.
When was this deck installed? What species of PT?
He is 100% absolutely correct!!!
Yessir! Wet wood shrinks. People keep saying they get "dry" PT lumber. I'm not sure how that's possible, but they say it nonetheless.
I've never used lumber that is soaking wet. 2 weeks in the shed and it's a lot lighter to handle and the screws won't pull thru it. I gap it 1/8"and never had it close up or open to more than 1/4", which is not excessive.
I'm not sure where you get not soaked PT. I believe you, but I've never seen it. I'm also not moving a deck package around in my or anybody else's yard to to dry. Besides, it wouldn't dry meaningfully. If your system works, have at it.
I leave a little gap maybe 1/4 inch just for rain snow and debris
Whatever you add at install will be added as the wood shrinks to nominal size. As long as you know what you want as the end result, spend a million hours gapping boards that'll do it for you anyway.
On my last deck i used 1/8 gap only because i used the camo hiden fastener system.
If you used wet PT Southern Pine you probably have 1/2-inch gaps, I'd guess. - I like the Camo system. I used it today installing composite. Mine comes with 3/16-inch stand-offs.
I saw that used in another vid. And it looks like something I want to use when I do my deck.
Just did a 16x20 using camo its pretty slick and as some know it gaps as you go so now as mine has dried it has close to half inch it looks good
@@myfixituplife Camo has two different versions, one with a 1/16" gap for pressure treated deck boards, and another with a 3/16" gap for composite decking.
When I built my last deck, I intentionally left no space / almost no space to allow for board shrinking and it worked wonderfully. However, I did not force pry the boards together like this guy. I don’t think my boards would have shrank enough to overcome what he did there.
I get where you're coming from. The source code for this is getting parallel from the outside band joist. - I pry the boards tight to even up the measurement. Not doing so as you go--and I am glad your deck worked--creates other problems.
I use ring shank nails. Screws end up snapping they don't have enough give for the way that would moves expands contracts.
I believe you. Ring shank nails are beast mode. I used to hand nail screw shanks once upon a time. - These, however, are not a typical deck screw. #10 x 2 1/2 Spax, I use them (with plan review approval) in metal hardware, too. They also work like Tapcons.
@@myfixituplife I'm not trying to say anything bad about your skills. Just here in Michigan the lumber will expand, and contact enough that the screws will break in under 5 years. My experience. That's why I use ring shank nails unless it's a composite deck board. I prefer TimberTech, but either way it's a softer deck board.
@@myfixituplife by the way I like this kind of discord. Being able to talk to another professional about the things that we do and why we do it.
@@myfixituplife by the way I really don't mean you any disrespect this is just my experience and I'm trying to share with you. I do like your videos you are good people.
I learned this the hard way. I put a small gap between each one and they all shrunk quite a bit. Menards wood is the worst. I also had a perfect miter on my hand rail and two days later it looks horrible. Gonna have to redo it. And let the board dry before installing. Good thing it's a small deck. I'm not going to go super tight like you did. But I'll just set them flush.
A lot of people do. Part of the reason I set them super tight is so that I'm running parallel to the outside band joist. If you start working various gaps, I think you're going to have trouble. - All miters in wet lumber open up. They drive in at the toe and retreat at the heel. I use what I call a "stepped" transition. It's in this video - ua-cam.com/video/kAChBcgxZqw/v-deo.html - Home Center lumber is...try a pro lumber yard. Get the material delivered.
When I build decks for me family or Friends we purchase material and stack it away correctly and let it dry out till next spring then install makes for better results and better miters to
There is no deck builder on Planet Earth that can feed his/her family on a business model like this. Glad you have the time and space to do this, but it doesn't work in real life. Next.
How much you expect timber to shrink? Each board might shrink a couple of mm across the grain. And unless your timber is absolutely soaking wet it wouldn't shrink anyway, its outside, the moisture content will constantly fluctuate.
3/16-inch each board, each side for a total of 3/8-inch. The wood shows up saturated, dries and contracts on its own. I doubt we use the same material and am pretty sure your moisture content is different than mine. Maybe not, Southern Pine is shipped internationally.
Had the same argument...OK, disagreement with the contractor who built our deck. He said he ALWAYS uses a 16d nail as a gap gage. I told him no gaps for the reason in this video. I finally had to acquiesce to an 8d nail gap. Now, no one with high heels can go on our deck. We live in Colorado. A semi arid state.
For cedar and redwood--probably way more in use there than here in the East--a nail gap is required. However, for really green lumber like PT pine it's a no go. It makes rolling things with small wheels--like a grill or storage box a chafe too. Sorry this happened to you.
What is that tool you are using to pull the new board up tight to the previous board?
It's an old 3/4-inch chisel. When you drive it into the boar, make sure the bevel is facing the edge of the board and the flat side is away from you.
If the deck is low to the ground, maybe 2' or less under the joists I would recommend leaving a gap.
Am I the only one that's replaced old decks that all the PT boards were swollen shut?
You can't be the only one. When the industry changed from CCA to whatever alphabet soup it became going on 20-years ago, those boards didn't behave like CCA or how it behaves today. Between 20-years going by and the chemical change, it sounds about right that you'd be replacing those decks.
That moisture content will vary from market to market, along with the final moisture content. No gap may work in the desert or middle America, but I'd recommend a gap in a coastal or particularly humid region.
What you're saying sounds good, but it hides that you have no idea about the supply chains and species of lumber in various markets.