Mite Treatments, Oxalic Acid Safety, Winter Feeding and more with Commercial Beekeeper Greg Rogers
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- Опубліковано 9 гру 2023
- A casual conversation about varroa mite treatments, oxalic acid vaporization safety, winter colony feeding, hive insulation and more with North Carolina Beekeeper Greg Rogers.
Thank you for contacting 3M regarding respiratory protection against Oxalic Acid. Suggest the #60921 (organic vapor/P100) cartridge for this application. Refer to the 3M selection guide link below as a reference:
multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/6...
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Well, that was super awesome, nice teamwork, Greg and Bob.
“I’m 70, I don’t plan on doing this until I’m 85”
“Well, maybe a few hives”.
Spoken like a true beekeeper😂
It’s interesting how different every body does different things and have such varying results
The beekeeping industry seems to be particularly prone to this.
@@bobbinnie9872 that’s like I’ve used Formic pro the last three years in August as as a mite treatment never had any issues, I guess maybe I was just lucky
Thanks for disclosing your nuc loss Bob, that hurts. I thought it was just me atill learning the hard way.
his nuc loss was from using them to repopulate lost hives not necessarily lost nucs.
Bob's voice is so easy to listen to...Then it dawned on me: He kind of sounds like Kenny Rogers!
Good info.The exchange between these to beekeeping masters is invaluable to a new beek like me. Keep 'em coming.
I had a real issue with this prior to switching to the battery unit. It was a combination of the nozel getting some build-up, reducing out the outlet, and building too much pressure in the bowl. You are also absolutely correct that the mositure content of the OA. It certainly compounded this issue!
I have had the cap pop off in the past . So a few years ago I got a key chain ring an unrolled it but left one coil in it . I keep this with me as I am doing treatments after each treatment I use that wire to clean out the tube after EACH TREATMENT an have never had another cap to pop off . NOT saying it could not happen so always use caution an safety.
Hello Bob. etal... ,
I concur with you 100% about dribble in cold weather. if you watch the bees after doing it you will notice the cluster is totally discombobulated for a period of time which is way to long when temps demand the bees maintian a clustering mode.
Like yourself i have utilized dribble for way over 20 years. Possisbly back to the ealry 90's. Been a long ride of learning and experimenting... Lol
its the most powerful ,fast mite killer out there.. no questions asked.
How.good it is for the bees....?
Especially when used at the sugar/ water / acid ratios " promoted " by Nannetti in his published Apimondia papers decades ago im not so sure. Its what weve used.
it may be out there , and i myself have been totally remise in not running a qualified study looking to see where the best bee survival rate vs the highest mite kill rate might be. i realky want to know..
How low can one go with the acid ratio abd still kill mites at a decent rate? easy enough study to run. . Just havent taken the time or made the effort. .... yet.
as per use of gylcerin as a media for the OA... We have done so for about 5 years and the benefit of the shelf stability and longer life is absolutely phenomenal.
We have gone to use of dribble only in certian temperature ranges .
BTW.. Been Synthetic treatment free for over 20 years. It can be done. Just work. Hard work.
Re. Formic. im totally off that train. to fickle for my liking
Hey,
I was wondering what ratio do you use when mixing glicerin with OA??
@@jackysenpai4934 Depends on the time of year. Location. Etc.
No fixed answer to how we."medicate" humidity, temperature as well as bee cluster size ... Along with the forecast it all goes nto a judgement call we use with all the items we use. Its not a one and done issue like the old days when fluvalinate was slipped in easily and effectively.
have to know the product. how it works. In each specific setting. And also how they work in conjunction to each other or in opposition if using more than one os used simultaneously.
Not much of an answer but its what we do.
Bob, I watched your video a few weeks ago with the German guy at UGA. He said that mites cannot reproduce when humidity is >80% (maybe it was 90%?) That seems like a no-brainer.
What are your thoughts?
That caught my attention too and I would like to see more information on it.
Ya unfortunately mine in Florida seem to reproduce no problem all summer 😂
An OA vaporizer is a tool like anything else and beekeepers need to keep their tools in good working order and clean.👍Thanks for the video Bob.
Great discussion as always. I would add that plugged tubes/popped caps can be symptomatic of low temperatures causing clogged tubes. Low temperature, both ambient and vaporizer causes recrystallization in the tube. Allowing the vaporizer to come back up to temperature before the next dose is important.
Im in Ontario Canada. end of my second year beekeeping. Last season with two hives, I use OAV staring in November, did 3 rounds of OAV into mid december. I did not have to treat this season until August, and even then it was only 3 mites ina. wash, I just wanted to keep them down. I treated with formic pro in august, then apivar late september. And 3 rounds of OAV now. We will see how it looks in the winter.
I essentially use an o-ring so that seals the top but sits loosely on the heating chamber. So the o-ring would be on the OD of the cap and would sit on top of the heating chamber to seal it. This way if there is an issue that plugs the outlet, the cap simply burps to release the pressure. There is no need for a tight fit that could result in a pressure buildup.
Changing o-rings and, if temps are cold and causing clogging of the copper tube, briefly heating the tube with a propane torch can really help to mitigate caps blowing off.
I use 4g/box with a ProVap110. 8g/double-deep. Halloween x1, Thanksgiving x1, Dec 14 x1. 👍🏻
Looking forward to seeing the data from Greg & Dr Tarpy vis-a-vis OA/gly sponges. This season I applied sponges twice (June & August) and my mite loads were very very low in September/October. That’s all I needed for this season, aside from the late season OAV.
31 colonies. Portland, OR. Zone 9a.
I agree with your overall approach and I think you will see that the data supports it.
@@bobbinnie9872
Thanks, Bob. Keeping mite loads low year-round is, in my opinion (and yours, it seems), the optimal approach to mite & virus management. I’ve had very good success, thus far. Zero winter losses and very good yields (>120lbs/hive this year).
Again, looking forward to Dr Tarpy’s data.
My plan for next year is roughly the same. Sponges in early May and again in early August. If necessary, touch-up with ApiGuard in September. Then OAV on Halloween, Thanksgiving, & Dec 14
Terrific video. I learned a TON!! Thank you.
Another great video! Looking forward to seeing you all at the expo. Can't wait!
Very interesting video. I am also worried about using Formic pro but probably going to have to use it on a few hives to test it out.
Very interested in knowing the results of the oxalic pad testing!!
Good timely video. 60923 is the correct cartridge mentioned. It is my understanding that OA is an organic acid but it does not produce an organic vapor. It produces an acid gas when sublimation occurs:
Regardless a 3M 60923 covers organic vapors- acid gases - and particulates (P100). So it is a good choice. A 3M full face and cartridges is 75- 100 bucks. I just purchased one off eBay.
Thank you for the information! The only thing about Formic Pro is that if you don't use 2 pads at once, you are not killing the mites below the caps. This was stated by an official from NOD. It also does state that in the directions.
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Great timing 4 this video thanks 😊
EZ-OX Oxalic Acid Tablets and Powder has been registered by the EPA. 2 grams per deep brood box. We will be at the NAHBE with special pricing.
I probably have 10000+ individual treaments made with provaps, 99% of the time when the caps blow off it’s because the stem has plugged. On a warm dry day you can go hundreds of treatments without ever blowing a cap. On a day where it’s cool and perhaps rain or snow has saturated the surface where the stem rests, it’ll cool and plug the stem. I haven’t noticed any difference with dosage, 1g-5G+
Easiest fix is a butane torch, a few seconds under the flame clears the tube.
All you need is spearmint essential oil for mites and shb. Mix it in their feed, mist it directly on them (dilute with water), and most importantly put it directly onto your bottom boards and tops of the frames. Harmless to the bees but lethal to the pests.
Legal dose now 2 grams per deep with EZ-OX. The better the seal, the more the pressure builds up. Then, if you plug the tube the cap will fly off with much more force. My vaporizer doesn't have O rings, just a silicone cup. I set this cup in lightly with not much pressure. Doesn't leak and if pugged it pops off gently with not much force. This rarely ever happens. Some people put water in dried out oxalic acid or let the oxalic acid draw moisture with unsealed package. This will greatly increase the water steam build up and cause excessive pressure.
Jessie's face when you tell him o-rings need a replacement 😅
Greg mentioned the Baggie method, which I assume is a gallon Zip-Loc bag with syrup in it. And Bob mentioned mixing apple cider vinegar with dry sugar. I am suggesting to combine those 2 methods of putting table sugar mixed with just enough apple cider vinegar to make it like packable snow, (which is about 1/4 cup vinegar to 4 lbs of common sugar), but doesn't need to be exact. Put as much of the mixture as you can in a gallon Zip-Loc bag, and put it on top of the inner cover or directly on the top of frames. (Obviously, requires a shim or spacer.) Lastly, poke about 5 to 10 holes on the BOTTOM of the bag with something like a knife tip or screw driver to help them find the openings. The bees will cut the holes as big as necessary and tunnel through the sugar, hopefully consuming much more of the sugar mix. The whole point of the modifided baggie method is to keep more moisture in the sugar before it turns hard and hard to consume. I have had good success with this technique.
This sounds great. Thanks.
In the uk, on the island of jersey, a lot of the Asian hornet finds have been from members of the public, not just beekeepers.
A established nest can eat over 11kg of insects in a season, this is a huge amount of insects and in some parts of France bird levels are dropping and its thought that this is due to the Asian Hornets are taking so many insects there is not enough left to feed the bird population.
Therefore this is not just a beekeepers problem but everyone’s.
They do not only eat honey bees but most insects, it will affect all pollinators as well.
We have had around 80 confirmed Asian Hornet nest in the UK this year, mainly on the south coast.
Check out Richard Noel’s UA-cam channel, he is based in France and has first hand experience of Asian Hornets attacking his hives and some great videos on the subject.
Well its -11c x1.8-32 =12.2F i bought a thermometer with 3 remote sensors a r20 wrapped single is sitting at +8C 46.4F
The r20 wrapped groups of 4 are +14Cor 57F and the other one is 18Cor 64.4 F
Its abnormally warm in Sask this year .
The sensors are on top of the hive covers and under the r20 pillow .
Im feeding fondant just in case 2 hives out of 8 have eaten a couple oz of it in 2 weeks so they arent hungry yet .
I never new anything about wrapped winter hive temps until now !!!
We just fed them wrapped them and forgot them until late feb or early march weather permitting!!!
Good morning Bob,
Many thanks for your videos. They are very inspiring for me.
We have had increasing problems with varroa in recent years. We have started to do the following: Around the fifth of July, we seal off the queen. We use 1cm wide, frame sized cages. At the end of July at harvest the colonies are brood-free. After the honey has been removed, the queen is released and the colonies are treated with 4 grams of oxalic acid. In this way the winter bees are reared almost Varroa-free. The procedure is also very efficient and the costs are very low. The queen is sealed off again at the beginning of October. The colonies are brood-free again at the end of October and are treated with oxalic acid again. The queen remains in the cage until the end of January. The bees thus remain completely calm even in mild weather. Food consumption is minimized. In this way we achieve four months of brood rest instead of just one. Winters have changed considerably here in Switzerland over the last twenty years. In the mild phases, the bees always go back into brood. They wear themselves out, food consumption is high and there is no benefit to be seen in the spring from all the brooding. I think we need to fundamentally rethink our approach and perhaps find new ways.
Another informative episode. Thank you. Did I miss mention of temperatures? Per Better Bee "Oxalic acid vaporization during the broodless period can be done in outside air temperatures as low as 37 degrees F, but a better range is in the mid-40s to low50s F. At these temperatures the bees will be clustered in the hive and stay during the process."
Somewhat correct. If possible we like to keep it below 50°f so almost all bees are in.
Always interesting videos. We do need to step up our program in regards to mites. So a few things learned and now to go out and "experimenting"!
Ive had caps blow off several times recently with higher doses, too much pressure!
A twist lock may be in order.
Your tube must be partially plugged or you OA is comprised of too much water
I’m so excited to see you guys again and get 10 bottom boards
What the manufacturers of the vaporizers need to do is add a locking lug on the cap above the oring. Then when you apply the cap you would give it an 1/8th or 1/4 turn and the cap cannot come out. This would be a simple modification that would completely prevent the cap from coming off at any dose. As a toolmaker I solve issues like this all the time. Sorry we missed you and Ian speaking in Hendersonville, we look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks for sharing all the experience you have, you are a wealth of information.
Hot humid FL and the oxy glycerin pads kept one of my bee yards of 30 to 3 or less mite count in a dish soap wash. Just keep in mind when they heavily propolize the pads, they don't work as well
We've been playing with them and we're seeing results with them too.
Great video Bob! I use provap EZ 110s and love them.
Hi Ron. I've been tempted to look closely at those. As you know our VM vaporizer is faster than the our ProVap 110s but it's a pain to use. I know Jacob doesn't like his at all. Have you bee able to compare the EZs to the VM at all?
@@bobbinnie9872 I tried his one time but had a lot of trouble with blockages. My EZs haven’t clogged but do take 15-20 secs per 4 g treatment. It may take a little longer, but the upshot is no down time for cleaning/ adjusting. I have a small inverter generator set up on a pallet with posts for hanging ext cords and a bucket to transport the units in. I also really like the EZ bc it keeps your face away from the OA and eliminates the need to stoop down.
@bob binnie are you all conducting single treatments in winter or multi day treatments since most hives are bloodless?
We will be doing three treatments total approximately 2 weeks apart.
Regarding EPS under the top cover: it does add the necessary insulation to reduce condensation. However, ants also love the warm dry interior of a hive and find it quite easy to excavate through the styrene insulation. Since that experience, I put the insulation on top of the lid, held down by a brick. Prevents the condensation issues and isn’t an ant hotel.
One of the best ones in a long time bob!!! I use OA 3 different ways, I use a sprayer to apply the dribble method with 1-1 during hot months, July and august and spray each frame, queen and all. I use the glycerin pads like Dick Brickner taught me and I hit them with my vaporizer during winter months. I do wash colonies every 90 days and skip washing in the winter. This is how you help people keep their colonies alive!! The guy mentioned caps popping off, I keep a straightened out big paperclip. I hang it off the thumb loop of my bee jacket. When I pull the vaporizer I instantly ramrod the paperclip down the pipe. It forms crystals that stop it up. Been sprayed with out OA.
You know what would would make a good video ??
Ive read a bit lately on the sugar content of flowers .and sap
A video on that would be very informative .
Borage and Linden have very high sugar content
And tulip poplar has enough nectar in one blossom to fill a bee on flower per trip .!!
Интересная информация. Спасибо ребята.
Hi Bob… I may have missed it. What constitutes one complete treatment of OA by vaporizing? One vaporization or more to follow 5 days later etc?
I look at one time as one treatment. Some consider multiple treatments as one regimen.
Oxalic Acid vapour does not work prooerly on mites in warm, dry conditions. Could be an issue in Georgia!
After running a few thousand doses of oxalic acid through my old Jonnos vaporizer, I have had the silicone cap blow off maybe half a dozen times. The only reason I see it blew off was because there was water or moisture in the hole in the box which caused the copper stem to cool down rapidly and clog the stem hole. The cap never blew off with enough pressure to cause an injury. Pretty soon they'll want us to wear a full hazmat suit.
Hi Bob from Greece. I have experimented with different sublimation temperatures and have come to the conclusion that 280C gives the best results. It is wrong what they say that at these temperatures it degrades to formate and carbon dioxide. These gases are invisible and if this were the case we would not see the cloud of sublimation. If we sublimate in front of a black surface at a distance of 30 cm, all the problems will be solved. The oxalate crystals on the surface are the weight of the oxalate we put in the machine minus the 30% that is water. I insist dear Bob that you and your friend Greg Rogers do this research and let us know your results.
Can you do a follow up video of the mites test Craig put out at NAHBE.
This summer there will be more coming out on that.👍
What months are you treating the mites if you are doing 3 treatments per year. I live in NC 50 miles from the coast and I know location has a lot to do with those treatments. I did treat for varroa in August and had good results with apivar.
We've recently finished our winter oxalic acid vaporization treatments. Some of our colonies are beginning to lay eggs again so it was important get it done while they were still broodless.
Over wintering. We made several thymol sugar brick test batches. 10 grams per 10 pounds of sugar.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to do a winter OA treatment. Now I'm worried about mites going into spring. What treatment would you recommend going into spring and what's a good time to do it? Near Chattanooga, TN. THANKS!
Perhaps Formic Pro in spring before temperatures get hot.
So now that the NABE is in the books, is there information on the Oxalic Extended release work that Greg talked about in this segment?
Yes. His presentation there showed good results. Basically following Randy Olivers work with some variations.
Good to know thank you. I have herd there's a commercial pad in the works. Be nice to have a product that once mites are low a treatment that will carry the hive until fall treatment. @@bobbinnie9872
Nozzle is to small. You need a large nozzle like on the VaporizET and a better way to control the dosage like the VaporizET
Thanks to all of you for discussing the nuts and bolts of winter beekeeping... some of us just don't know when to do what.
Thanks. As you can see all of us are learning each new year.
Clean the spouts out every 10 hives or so with a small wire pipe cleaner
What paint do you recommend. Do you also use primer ?
We use an oil base primer by Sherwin Williams, Kilz, Zinseer or Behr and an acrylic latex enamel high gloss for two top coats. The top coat high gloss we use is Behr but Sherwin Williams works great too. Not every paint store stocks high gloss latex.
Is there any reason you wouldn’t do a mixture of oxalic acid sponges and vapor? I’ve never seen someone do this, but it seems like it would be a happy medium.
I don't know of anyone that has done it ether but I don't think it would hurt anything and could actually help.
Great info! Thanks Bob. I found that as long as you give it time to completely vape off and clear the discharge tube I have never had an issue with the unit blowing the cap off. I use the plunger for measurement of the crystal so the unit heats back up quickly with not removing the cap. I have had good results on the hives that I use OA on with 3+ grams per box every 7 days for at least 3 treatments and prefer 4 treatments. I would like to know your thoughts on vaping into the top of the box rather than the bottom? We have been discussing the fact that the vapor is heavier than air and would settle down through the frames with better distribution? I am working on a test where I have split my hives into 3 groups to try a few new things around mite treatments, if the industry works together we will find a solution Im sure!
My believe that vaping from the top is at least as effective if not more.
Guys if you use that vaporizer like I do you carry water to make sure you clear nozzle after a few uses.
I wonder if Rob is working on a dose meter for his original vapes. Maybe i will shoot an email. Great video. I like your work bench set up too!
Good afternoon, greetings from Ukraine, how do you feel about the roof of a California-type hive, or is it still the best roof with a snap-on design? Thank you.
I'm not sure what a California type hive is.
@@bobbinnie9872 I meant which roof is better, like Ian Stapler's or the one with the overlap?
As they say in dentistry...our profession is built upon the backs of "O" rings. O rings tend to dry out quickly with heat and become the weak link in the system (remember the Space Shuttle: two simple O rings caused the Challenger to explode).. I replace mine seasonally. I also give the teflon cap a little twist to ensure it is seated all the way. and wipe a little mineral oil around the cap where the ring is.
In regards to the 3M filters; 3M recommends replacing the filters every six months. Is this what everyone is doing?
ProVap recommends using bicycle cable to clean out the tip. It works well. Another great and informative video...loved it when your wife called at the end!
Hi Tim. We change out our cartridges often but of course they are being used all day in most cases. We do like the bicycle brake cable too. She's looking forward to Charleston in February!!
Great discussion. Thank you. Now I have questions ( and comments) and I will have to break them up into two posts. Here is part 1:
I have used OA dribble in my new mid-summer NUCs and have had good success. I did have a couple that looked like they were set back by the treatment, but they rebounded a few weeks later looking strong by September. I used an OA strength of 3.2% (based on Randy Olivers OA table - HOT=4.2%, med=3.2%, Weak=2.5%) to a max of 25 - 30 ML for a 5-6 frame NUC. I do the OA dribble a day or two before the first batch of brood is capped ( based on RO observations) . I live in a northern climate. Below 0C ( 32F) at night is common in September, so I will only use OA dribble once in the summer . I use the vaporisation method in Oct, Nov, and Dec at daytime temps no lower then 2C. At least a few hours before sunset, to give the bees a chance to organise their cluster for the evening.
Q: What strength of OA did you use for the OA Dribble? Did you use it in big summer hives or only your new summer NUCs ( new Queen) ?
I don't remember the strength but it was whatever Randy was recommending at the time. I used it in winter, usually around 38°f to 45.
I've done dribble with good success on dropping mites but I also dropped 2 queens with it this year, & I used the recipe off betterbee's site, I think it was 8.75 grams of OA per 5 hives..., I think the glycerin /oa pads is what I'm going to try next season , seems alot more milder on the bees over an extended period of time!
Where can I buy a mask as described in the video for OA treatment?
We bought ours at our local Home Depot.
Ha Bob the video was good., I am not going to the expo I hope you will share what roger found out whith the extended release, I want to buy the video for the expo But do not know how to get them. I would love to get your presentation on increase. that would be great. hope u and Greg has a Blessed week plus the amount of oa per box thank for your thoughts on that. I started using the reflex and the foam board I even use the bee cozy, it has been working great. the top is just so warm .I have the feeder shims I bought from you on top I also put the sugar cake candy what ever, on top and it catches any condensation. The lids are the ones I got from you as well. it works great there is no driping on the bees. I hope all of you have a blessed week thanks again for the vedio and I always look forward to the next.
Kamon plans to have video available at some point. Just watch for on his channel.
I like these "shop talk" type videos.
Hi Randy. You especially will appreciate this. When I posted this video I only expected it to get a mediocre amount of views. Surprisingly it has gotten the most amount of views in the first 24 hours of any video I've posted. You never know.
@@bobbinnie9872 HAAAA!! That's the way they go.
Just a learner not a keeper yet, besides oxalic acid what other organic treatments are there?
"Apiguard" which is thymol, "Formic Pro" which is formic acid (an organic acid) and oxalic acid are the main ones.
@@bobbinnie9872 thanks
The only time my instavap pops its top is when I meet resistance when inserting with a towel at front entrance.
I now put a tube, ie, bic lighter thru the towel and pull it out as I insert the tube of my vaporizer so it doesn’t have any resistance with insertion
Bob, when you were talking about feeding the bees this winter you mentioned you a bought a fondant patty or something like that can I ask what exactly it was that you are using?
We ordered some Strong Microbial patties to use as a portion of our dry feeding.
Part 2 Questions and comments:
I typically use Formic Pro in mid to late August when I find a hive with a >2-3% mite load because it can impact mites under the capped brood and is safe with honey supers on. Typically I use the 1-2 strip rotation every 7-10 days. But if I find a hive with a heavy mite load, i use the two strip method. This summer, for the first time, I isolated the older Queens ( 2nd year or greater) for 24 -36 hours in a NUC box on a honey/pollen frame beside their hive ( if I used the two strip method). To allow the Formic to vent off and prevent losing the Queen. To my surprise, the hives accepted all of those older Queens back after being 24-36 hours away from the hive (maybe the Formic Pro vapour confused the bees and slowed their emergency Queen replacement response???). To small of a sample to see if this method will always work, and risky , but a cool outcome.
I spoke with the makers of Formic Pro this fall . I found out that the 2 strip rotation method ( every 10 days) will not kill the mites under the capped brood. It will only target the phoretic mites in the hive. The two strip method will kill the mites under the capped brood. This information is now published in their directions and on the website ( I don't think it was a few years ago, but I could be wrong).
Q: I really appreciate when you interview guests. Would you consider reaching out to NOD Apiaries and doing a YT video on Formic Pro ?
( I liked the comments about % humidly on the effectiveness , delivery of these treatments. A good Question for NOD Apiaries. A company based in a very humid region of Ontario, Canada)
Thank you Bob, Jesse and guest Greg Rogers !
That's interesting about the difference between 1 and 2 strip treatments and penetration of the wax cappings. BTW, 24-36 hrs away from the hive is no issue when it comes to the hive accepting the queen back. I do it all the time when making cell builders.
I appreciate your feedback. Thank you. I also make cell builders , I agree that 24-36 hours is not a big issue. It is the addition of the strong Formic Pro vapour in the first 24-36 hours that concerns me. I would think that the Formic smell would mask or inhibit the Queens chemical signature in the hive and increase the chance of the workers making Queen emergency cells. But maybe that is not the case. Cheers
I think the nail on the head here is sucrose syrup versus glycerin as a delivery agent for OA. The bees will consume the former readily, obviously, ingesting OA at the same time, they seem less inclined to consume glycerin as its not a typical food source, just my two cents.
Can we do OAV with sugar boards on?
Good question. I've never done it but I believe it would be OK. It's been approved for using with honey supers on and there is actually some oxalic acid in honey.
@@bobbinnie9872the temps in GA are so up and down right now (atlanta)…..can I do 3-4 treatments with OAV within a couple of week to get it in before January?
I believe that would work fine.@@doctortcbkk2027
Bob, very timely presentation. I just finish vaporizing approx. 60 colonies here in Middle Tennessee Friday to beat the server weather. I have both the ProVap 110 and the ProVap EZ 110. The EZ 110 by FAR is my favorite and easiest on my back. It is MUCH faster than the ProVap 110. I use a 4 gram capsule in my EZ 110 and I set the temperature to 275 degrees which provides me a MUCH faster and clean burn off of the OA. I typically rise out the 110 EZ about every 60 shots of OA to keep it clean and from clogging up with a solution of water & baking soda to neutralize the acid build up and prevent corrosion. In hot weather, the full face respirator is just not practical for me. I sweat so much that I can't see what I am doing so I use the half face 3M respirator but I wear a clear view veil that has the heavy duty polypropylene plastic screen. Not ideal but no issues so far. I did a hot weather Formic Pro treatment last August but still had an appreciable varroa mite drop in several hives. I will probably treat again sometime after Christmas unless we have another round of warm weather before then. Best wishes for a Merry Christmas and healthy bees Bob! On Edit: I have posted 3 very civil replies to the below comments and ALL 3 have apparently been deleted as best I can determine. My last reply was merely posting a link to Randy Oliver's research on OAV in this area and updates to his article. If this is worthy of deletion, please just delete my entire post and I will refrain from wasting any further of my time trying to make a helpful contribution here. Not exactly sure what is going on here. Perhaps there is a different problem I am not aware of. Thank you.
A temperature of 275⁰ A lot of the OA is burnt off as carbon and a little bit of formic acid. Those to compounds do not treat for mites. At 185⁰C the oxalic acid begins to burn/change to carbon and formic. At 275, yes, it's fast, and it appears to be working towards treating the bees with smoke exhausting from the vaporizer and hive bodies, but it's smoke/carbon that you are seeing, its not OA crystals at that temperature.
@@sidelinerbeekeeper What you are saying is not correct
@mosxosntionias4771 Numerous sources say optimal sublimation temperature is 157⁰C. I can also find it on Randy Oliver website. For what it's worth, he must be wrong, too.
Bob. You mentioned using 3-4 grams per box. But older models won’t hold that amount so back we treat back to back?
Also, could you recommend a good OAV machine under $200? I can’t afford these that are $500-$600! Grateful.
It's OK to apply two treatments immediately back to back to reach the dose needed as long as you can hold the vapors from the first in while adding the second. I don't know of a good quality mid size applicator for $200.00 or less. A good quality "wand" style applicator is the "Varrox" brand which is typically around $165.00. It's not the cheapest but it's the one we carry because they never come back.
Hillco use to have one for 199.99, Ive had it for 2 seasons and am happy with it! Its called Hillco PowerVap
Thx so much. Googling this I found The Reaper OAV for $195 and its battery operated! Thx!!!!
On the forming pro is it 1 pad per box. Where do u put it. And do u protect the queen if it's cold? We had a very high mite and I did oxilac acid treatment 6 times in a row. We are in Colorado. It's cold
Wether one or two pads are used it is suggested that it goes just above the brood. The effectiveness of oxalic vaporization diminishes as temperatures drop because it doesn't penetrate a tight cluster well. It's best to treat between 42°f and 46°f if possible so no bees are fly but the cluster is not too tight. Because of timing problems we try for between 40 and 50 when possible (not always possible).
Are you using OA during the spring/summer with honey supers on?
I only tried it a few times but didn't continue because it didn't work very well.
Hard to believe WE will ever have fully mite resistant bees when EVERYONE keeps treating with chemicals..
Hey Bob. On the vm vaporizer what keeps the oa from just falling out the end when u load dose. Thank u
I don't have a good answer for that. Even though it's fast I'm actually thinking of not using it anymore because it's hard to control.
Usually place newspaper with sugar on top to feed in winter. I would like to try the Reflectix insulation but how would one feed sugar to the hive? What would be the set up to do that?
Thanks
Some sort of rim or space would be needed. Some people just use an empty super box.
Thanks Bob always enjoy your videos and learn a lot.
I’m always concerned about the constant talk of OA extended release pads. OA is extremely effective and can average a 90% kill. It’s never in the hive long enough for mites to build a resistance. If we start adding extended release OA into colonies aren’t we just setting ourselves up to allow the mites to build up a resistance to OA ? Then we would lose OA as an effective treatment. Why would we do that to ourselves ?
What's actually lacking is a complete understanding of how oxalic works. You may have a good point.
Where do u get the green board and reflex?
Both can be purchased in our area at Home Depot.
Per your comment about going organic is the use of apiguard still in the tool box for swarm control!
It is and I do consider it organic.
@@bobbinnie9872 also received the seeds today thank you!
I have that vaporizer with silicone caps and the issue I have is when I install cap and flip it over the OA doesn’t all fall in the cup and I have to tap the cap and then it drops in and I can see the temp drop and fog
I'm wondering if anyone else was Finding beehives with a queen with a double hand full of bees dead everybody dead but the Queen's just didn't look like they were mated well they look smaller I have asked around the cumming area and several people have told me the same thing I have even heard the same thing as far down as Fort Valley
I haven't heard about that yet.
Regarding water on top of the bees; I bring home a bait, full of bees and heavy , because I have 5 frames dip and 5 medium on bait s , but I did not paint the boxes specifically the lids, looks like I have water on boxes because of lids, I think so, so I found a bunch of bees on front of the hive dead, I drill 1/2” hole on the bottom, first hole was not on the landing board, so I drilled that hole and the water was pouring out about 300 cc , I am concerned about frames being saturated with water? What’s your recommendation? Change the bottom box with a dry one, not the top one , or live like it is for now, my concern is the water was smelling bad so? And it’s about 45 degrees outside . I appreciate your answer/advice, Thank you, about treating with acid oxalic I used about 4 grams per hive nu I have like Roger once dip and one medium box . Thank you again! Happy Christmas and New Year!
I would transfer to dry equipment and stop condensation if you can.
I thank you, I was thinking the same but I was concerned about the temperature 47 degrees?
And some of the frames might have water on because of th bad smell on the water coming from inside after I drilled the hole on the bottom, landing board.
What is the brand name of the mask and cartridges? Catalog Numbers?
3M
6700 SMALL
6800 MEDIUM
6900 LARGE
Filter is described in the video
Face fit is recommended to ensure you get aproper seal
You are fitted with one and tested to see it fits your face while you are moving and breathing and talking .
I take a 6800 or 6900
Fat face on an old 250lb fat guy
It’s always a pleasure to learn from Greg and you. When using formic pro have you heard of others freezing the formic pro pads before placing them on the hive. I’m guessing the idea is to slow the “flash” effect in the first 24 hours and as a result prevent damage to the queen in the hive.
Thanks as always for the great content in your videos.
Thanks. I have heard of that but I don't personally know of anyone that has done it. It could work. Might be worth a try.
@@bobbinnie9872 I just recently heard of this and will try it out on a few hives to see how it effects those test hives.
Thats a 3m full face mask they come as 6700 small 6800 medium 6900 large .
They recommend you have a face fit to see which size you require .😊
One other thing you need to do is at days end wash contaminants off your mask gently with warm soapy water then rinse and dry it .
Store it in a clean plastic bag with paper towels to absorb moisture
If the lens gets scratched and unuseable you can buy replacement lenses .
Thanks for the video gentlemen .
Will both full face or half us men need to lose the beard. Beards prevent a proper mask to skin seal.
That or a positive pressure hood ventilator.
Yes clean shaven to get a seal .
Good call
You know you can live without your eyes but you cant live without your lungs .
These are expensive 200 ish
Airstream PAPR positive air pressurizes personal respirators are $2500.oo. ish and much higher maintenance
3m makes one as well but i never bought one they were provided on site By Cameco
A lot of places sell the wood bleach (including a company you have mentioned in your videos). Then there is the oxalic acid that is sold so you can leave supers on. What's the real difference between the two? Besides the price that is.
I'm concerned that one company gets an approval for use with supers on so they can jack up the price.
Your thoughts?
I'm looking forward to your feed recipe video. Hoping it comes out soon
As far as I know only one company has approval for their oxalic acid product to use at any time because they went through the process for approval.
There is no difference.
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Great to hear and see Alan Rickman look-a-like Roger!
I do the sugar and honey bee healthy and I'm telling you they pay no attention at all to the honey, they stay on the sugar all winter
I recently got the lorob bees oa vape. The caps are 4 gram doses. My question is, If I wanted to used more than 4 grams for a double deep, would I use 2 separate caps or does the dose need to be in a single drop?
You can put it in with two doses, but careful not to lose a bunch of the first batch's vapor when you have to open the hive plug. I've found that a single dose seems effective as long as you thoroughly plug up the hive entrance(s) with a t shirt or similar for at least 10 or 15 minutes. The higher doses help compensate for a lot of it being blown out the hive if they don't plug the entrance due to time (the pros have hundreds to do so I see they often skip plugging the entrance) or hives with lots of leaks. Better to plug it up well and give the vapor time to condense in the hive.
Two separate applications, one done immediately after the other, works fine.
Just found this, and it agrees with Bobs OAV treatment doses. Abstract:
Oxalic acid (OA) is a natural compound that has been used to control the honey bee (Apis mellifera) pest Varroa destructor. One method of OA application gaining popularity among beekeepers in the US involves vaporizing OA crystals with heat inside a closed hive. Herein, we tested different doses of OA applied via vaporization to determine the most effective amount of OA needed to reduce V. destructor populations below that of the negative controls. Forty experimental colonies were assigned to one of four treatment groups, with ten colonies composing each group. The four treatments were: (1) 1 g OA, (2) 2 g OA, (3) 4 g OA and (4) no OA (negative control). The OA was applied via vaporization once per week for three weeks. V. destructor infestation rate and colony strength assessments were estimated before, during, and after treatment applications. Colonies in the 4 g OA treatment group had significantly lower infestation rates than did those in the untreated control and 1 g OA treatment groups, but not those in the 2 g OA treatment group. The infestation rate of colonies treated three times with 1 g OA, which is the current legal limit for OA vaporization in the US, was not significantly different from that of colonies in the negative control or 2 g OA treatment groups. Colonies receiving the highest dose of OA were generally healthier than those treated at lower OA doses. Our results may lead to improved efficacy of OA vaporization, thus aiding beekeepers in their efforts to control V. destructor.
I think the dribble method is very common in male beekeepers over 50.
👍
I think in 2025 We as a whole beekeeping community should collectively agree just NOT do any treatment for the whole year , cut our losses, & then see what kind of data we have & then start 2026 with better stock of bees... maybe we can talk our garbage government into funding some new bees or something lol
That would certainly get someone's attention.
That’s a really terrible idea that would manifest an abject dumpster fire.
Wish it were that easy, though.
I think if you could get a smaller region to do that, like a single city, and prove that it's effective that'd be really cool. It would require control of incoming bees/nucs, and maybe starting everyone off with hygienic queens... It'd still likely be 90% colony losses... Really hardest on backyard people that only have 1-3 hives. Interesting idea to get some funding involved.
@@katiemarler7514
Like…say…an island? It has already been done.
@@RyanMcDonnough yeah well they're not sharing those queens with the rest of the world are they? People need proof it can be done between many different Beekeepers, NOT on a private island.
I had fun too! It was a pleasure to meet Greg. It dawned on me 1/2 way through our first supper together, I recognize that voice, that’s the home made Ezyloader guy!
Bob, you are a good man. Keep up the excellent work. These bees provide the opportunity to explore amazing paths when we choose to follow them
I was speaking for both of us in the video. I know he had a great time too. Thanks.
im just a nobody but how was it legal to do that 20 years ago when it wasnt even legal bak then???? u dont care about any of the rules it seems like why is that????? inside HIVE TV said it doesnt work at all. thi sis confusing to lots of us
You’re referring to OA treatment? If so, they would have treated with no supers on. It’s an ever evolving understanding of bees and treatments and the gentlemen in the video are on the forefront of the practical, experimental side of things. OA is not useful as a treatment during spring-fall while the bees are brooding a lot because it does not kill mites in the cells. That’s why the conversation is around treating in the winter while the bees are broodless, ideally. OA is a spectacular secondary winter treatment, not a primary one. You still need to treat your bees in August (depending on your location and climate). If you have a screen bottom with an insert, you can check the mite drop 1-2 days after an OA treatment in the winter and the results will speak for themselves. I hope this helps.
Please use some nouns before using pronouns so that we know what you’re referring to. As-is, I don’t know how anyone could make sense of what you’re trying to say.
If you’re referring to OAV, then I’m happy to inform you that it does work very very well…when there is little to no brood in the colony and when dosed @ 3-4g/box. This is well-documented.
You have to understand that the bureaucrats are not always infallible. It is not that nobody cares but there is a large gap in what a business must do and what a government pushes. Look to their plan for the tallow trees. They will spends fortunes of other peoples money to wage genocide on millions of colonies.
Was purdy dam plain
@@RyanMcDonnough was oxalic acid legal to use in hive 20 years ago???? If no then why are these guys not required to obey laws???? if you cant get that then cant help you!!!!!
Thank you, always enjoy your content .
Great timely video Bob. It was 55 degrees yesterday so I treated all my colonies. I used to have caps blowing off, lorobees vaporizer, I use a cordless drill to clean out the nozzle in between each colony and never have blow offs any more. Well worth the extra 10 seconds.
I use the same vaporizer and when the vaporizer hits 390 - 400 F and is done I pull out the vaporizer and hit the tip with a propane torch for 3 or 4 seconds. It is less messy than the drill bit.
I will be giving that a try, thanks.
Anytime the cap blew off usually happened with the tube partially blocked and I use more than label as well. Looking forward to your talks at the expo…see you in a few weeks.