I’ve loved this book since my mid-teens (about 45 years now). It is a challenging read and it’s definitely challenging to try to describe it to anyone who hasn’t read it. You did a great job with this video!👍📖
Really great review, I agreed and disagreed on several major points. 1. I really appreciated your description of the Richards as "the weirdest people in Bellona," there really is no other way to view a heteronormative nuclear family in a space that's radically queer and polyamorous. 2. I disagree on the sex being gratuitous, though I would agree that it's not necessarily erotic. The descriptions as I remember them are very corporeal and visceral and as you note lack an emotional dimension which would make the scenes more properly erotic. What's interesting to note is that concurrent to Dhalgren, SRD wrote two pornographic works- Hogg, which I attempted to read but couldn't finish because it's about pedophilia and rape and was disgusting in every way imaginable, and The Tides of Lust which I have not attempted. 3. The mobius strip aspect of the novel's form is, to me, the only assertion about Dhalgren's structure that can be made with absolute certainty. Roughly halfway through the novel, counted in terms of 'movements' Kid even says "the tape flipped." I believe it was William Gibson in his introduction to the novel who said that Dhalgren is a riddle meant to be solved, though a riddle has a solution regardless of whether it should or shouldn't be solved-- Dhalgren is utterly without solution and in fact Delany seems to delight in thwarting the reader's desire to solve the mysteries of the story (the clearest evidence of this is the scene in which Tak and Kid are in the MSE warehouse, Kid discovers that orchids, light shields and the eyecaps are all just schlocky kitsch for sale on the commodities market- i.e. their purpose is to function as mysteries, but mysteries without meaning). 4. Your comment on the likeliness of the work being semi-autobiographical is pretty spot on, there are 2 instances that most readily come to mind. The first is that in the early sixties during the beginning of his marriage to Marilyn Hacker and his writing career, SRD suffered a nervous breakdown and spent some time in an outpatient mental facility- as I recall he'd developed a crippling fear of being underground. The second instance is that SRD hitch-hiked down to the Gulf to work on shrimp boats, and Kid makes a one-off comment about having done something similar and he attempts to recall what the other workers called him, thinking his true name might be revealed. (Those anecdotes are from SRD's autobiography covering his early life, The Motion of Light in Water- I highly recommend it if you feel you're becoming a fan of his. Perhaps of more immediate relevance to Dhalgren is SRD's Heavenly Breakfast, which details his time in a commune.) Sorry for the run-on, and there's definitely more to say. I was excited to see this review as I'd caught the Babel-17 one so I hoped you'd get to Dhalgren because it really is a wonderful book. And I'm writing my thesis on Dhalgren, so it's always fun to see other people read it and document their feelings about it.
Jacob Kroth Ooo, you have some really great notes about Dhalgren! I really should read some of Delany's memoirs. I'm not usually interested in what parts of their lives authors incorporate into their work, but Delany is an exception. He seems like a fascinating guy. I read that bit by Gibson in his essay about Dhalgren too, which made me relax and just read the novel without trying to "solve" the riddle all the way. I think I got through the book rather easily because I accepted early on that maybe the story wasn't going to make complete sense to me... and that was fine because smarter people than me haven't figured it out either! After thinking about the book more, and hearing more about it, I would probably revise my thoughts about the sex being gratuitous. Because that doesn't appear to me to be the intention; gratuitous would imply without purpose and certainly it's all there for a reason. For me, I think the reason all the sex exists in the novel isn't as relevant as it might have been back in the sci fi genre in the 70's.
I've read it twice, when I was 20 in 1975 and again in the early 90s. Now I'm listening to it on Audible. There are things about the story that you don't get as you admitted and that's fine. Even though I was there and waking up to my sexuality at the time, There are things about this book that I don't get. I do love it though. Listening to it in audible I'm loving it more even though I have reservations of the narrator's voicing of the characters. I liked your review very much and I think you get more of it than you give yourself credit for. It is not a normal story by design. It's supposed to be a tough read. It's not the same story I read in 75 and I'm not being cute with that, because of course I'm not the same person reading it, but the story has changed as the culture has changed and we read it with a different understanding than we had then. The fact that it's still a great story is proof that it not just addressing our culture then, it's talking to us now too. Again, thank you for your review.
I started reading Dhalgren six months ago and now I'm trapped in Bellona. There's something so haunting and compelling about this book but I'm not quite sure how to describe it. Really enjoyed your review. Nobody I know has read the book so it's nice to hear someone else's perspective.
I feel like I've been trying to get through it for years. The advice to try other Delany before tackling Dhalgren again is advice that I plan to take, but like you, the peculiar, haunting quality of the book has me thinking about it regularly. The setting, the orchid maguffin, the almost possessed journalling frenzies Kid has married with the inane Sim-like conversations he has with people create a really unusual blend. I almost feel like I'm listening to this Biosphere track at the same time as I'm watching a sitcom. www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DAz5WCmj-KF8&ved=2ahUKEwi_35Gxu4XgAhWRIDQIHYbMDvgQjjgwAXoECAIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2W5l6Qs4ZksgmBUhlNuOOr
Really thoughtful and honest review. I particularly liked your point about the sense of intention behind every sentence in the book. That was *exactly* what stood out for me when I first read it -- the sense even while the story was mysterious, ambiguous, and difficult to understand, the intent *behind* the story, whatever it was that was propelling the sentences forward, was totally coherent and lucid. (Even if I couldn't pin that intention down and name it.)
I'm glad someone else thought that way about Delany's prose! Even now, months after reading Dhalgren, that sense of purpose is what stays with me. It was very interesting reading Nova after Dhalgren too, because I thought it was a little similar in the writing and in other elements. Even if I don't understand or completely enjoy a lot of what Delany writes about, I'm just continually impressed at how great a *writer* he is! That's rare.
Wow, what an honest in-depth review. Love it. Decades ago against your advice, this was my first Delany read. I finished it like Ulysses. I've heard tell from reputable sources that Prince's character The Kid from Purple Rain had birth in Delany's Kid.
Andrew Ceyton I would not be surprised to hear Prince was influenced by Dhalgren at all! That's interesting. Dhalgren really is a challenging read and I feel like my reading horizons have been expanded. Not sure I would want to read Ulysses though... don't know if I could take that! :-)
A late acquaintance of mine had to point out to me what was obvious: the first explicit sexual encounter in the book is pretty lousy, arises from a sense of obligation, and leaves both people feeling kind of embarrassed. It's the opposite of erotic, and it's very real.
@@MrsDixon-ip8vb I can't really explain. Dahlgren came out at a specific time, and along with making us think, it mostly projected a very unique slice of life. People who have read Dahlgren are quite reluctant to recommend it to anybody because the book can be reviewed in so many ways. My comment merely concerned my admiration that younger folk are keeping an almost 50 year old novel alive, and that the author is still here to talk about it. Thanks for your reply.
Good job on this. I remember when Dhalgren came out, and remember the tone of some of the reviews. I was 13 years old and had already read a lot of 'New Wave' sf writing, so I was somewhat well-equipped to 'conquer' it ... but it defeated me at the time and I stopped somewhere in the first third. I have always wanted to go back to it.
The struggle of reading this book is part of what makes it great. Read it again (haha) Its totally ok to read this first, I bought it at a library sale because the cover looked cool and it was $0.25
I finished reading Dhalgren on a camping trip in the 80s and then give it to my cousin. I always regretted giving it away, but recently I picked up another copy, but haven't re-read it yet. I also read The Einstein Intersection back in the 80s and again recently, but still don't know what it is about. Heavenly Breakfast is an interesting book about when he was living in a commune in 67/68.
I loved this book. It was a "trip" and it changed what I did as an artist. His writing is magical...he can blow a 100 pages on the history of toys and I would somehow keep reading.
Thank you for a wonderful revisit. I read this back in college, while I was still consuming large quantities of sci-fi and fantasy. In the book, what struck me were the parallels to Dante's Inferno. From the start it seemed he was coming-to from his death experience, waking by the suicide forest. The notebook is his guide in the travels through this hell. The scorpions were like devils projecting a fearsome aspect with lasers and prisms. Tak, the arch devil. There are many ways to look at this book, this was the one that resonated most with me as I read it. I too had a difficult time with certain aspects, being sex normative as they say nowaday, but this was offset by my underlying desire to seek the the truth in the human condition, vicarious as it will sometimes be.
I really love Nova, tore through it and incredibly evocative. The other of his I've read was Triton, which sounds a bit similar to this book, incredibly offputting at times,l and difficult yo get through, but it's also in some ways a critique of the main character's perspective, I wonder if that's the case here as well.
I have read it 5 or more times over the last 35 years and still never grasped the book, it is probably one of the most complex books I have read, I did have a laugh as it was my first Delany book but did read Nova and Babel 17 in the 80's and enjoyed them. do have Dhalgren on my ebook and will be reading again after I finish Cats Cradle
Somebody answer me this, please: what is Kidd's light shield supposed to be? Im just about entering the Brass Orchids party and this is the 2nd time they mention Kid lighting up. And Im so sick of waiting to know lol
"Stars in my Pocket like Grains of Sand" might also be a better first Delany book. It's similarly sexual and introspective but more of a love story so perhaps better received.
That was an excellent review, you made me curious: so that's another book added to my ever growing list of books I want to buy! (I think I need to win the lottery!)
Great review, and regarding the sex I think a gay guy would read those parts and just think, oh, it's an honest depiction of a young, out of the closet, gay guy. Many gay guys in cities like New York or San Francisco were having lots of sex starting in the 60s. Today Delany could write it and have less sex, and it would be just as honest, but I think back in 1974 he was making a point about just getting the reality of gay life out there. Lol, I can see he got his point across, and you're taking away from the book a more true to life understanding of the sex life of people like Delany, or at least how he was when younger. Imo the amounts of sex were partly about defiance, and as an affirmation that they were a community. And of course there's the connection to drug use, because if you're defying society about sex, one might as well be defiant about that. Now, I'll leave you with this, and that's when you reread Dhalgren years from now, you'll have much less notice of the sex. It's sort of like if your housemate has his girlfriend over, the first time they go at it in the bedroom while you're home, you can't help but be aware. After a month or two, it's barely background noise. And maybe as a gay guy who had to deal with prejudice, Delany was teaching his readers to not give a frack about gay guys have sex. I think the following article would be worth your time. www.theparisreview.org/interviews/6088/the-art-of-fiction-no-210-samuel-r-delany
Interesting analysis! I've only read Nova (and it immediately became one of my most favourite books ever) and La Intersección de Einstein - I'm from argentina... I was about 15 back then and that second novel took me three tries to finally get hooked in the story. I think we studied surrealism or some other avant garde at school and that helped me understand that I ought to make an experience out of reading it, rather than expecting a classic kind of narrative, if I wanted to grasp any kind of meaning... I still remember the visual impression it had on me... Maybe i should revisit it, fifteen years later (hahaha). It stroke me that the wrinting in Dhalgren is blunt and sturdy, Nova is so descriptive and full of texture... That to me eliminates any doubt of it being intended! Of course there was translation amidst when i read it, but still was a beautiful style. I haven't read Dhalgren (will do, even in english if i'm able!), but hearing your comments regarding the sex scenes makes me think a little bit of Bukowski... Who knows if there is some sort of implicit quote or offset dialogue there... Anyway, your words tempted me!! Will search for it tomorrow!!
It's impossible to divorce the sexual elements from the thematic elements in Delany's prose. I can see how that instantly places Delany into a niche, despite the extremely high quality of the prose. I also see the Kid as a queer version of the sort of character Dennis Hopper portrayed in the Last Movie. This was my first encounter with Delany. I picked this up in the late 90s when Vintage was putting out lots of significant reissue series. The William Gibson introduction was the perfect bait for 14 year old me. Thanks for the review! I need to reread this.
That's impressive praise, you've definitely got me curious now. I've just look and there's a nice new edition being released in a few months that will match both Babel and Dhalgren, which is nice timing.
persontruthbeauty I'm looking forward to Nova! I'm collecting SF Masterworks editions and I think the Nova edition is coming out in November. I wonder if Dhalgren is one of those most often abandoned books :-) I think I succeeded because I took it a little bit at a time and it did grow on me.
trha2222 Really? That's unfortunate, I really thought ES was much more thought provoking like Ballad and Babel. However as it is a Space Opera I suppose it is much more accessible and entertaining for the general public. To each their own I suppose.
I remember watching this around the time that I was reading Dhalgren for the first time. It helped me feel like I could get through the longest and most difficult book I had ever read up to that point. I now consider Dhalgren to be my favorite book and am now rereading it and finding so many new things in that broken down labyrinth! Its popular in a way, but rare to run into folks who have read it/"been there" lol so a lil Dhalgren content always means a lot. I am also juggling Dragonflight and Dragonsong on the side! Your video on them reminded me that I needed to finally get around to Anne...
Rember hearing Dhalgren was Delany’s attempt to write anothar Finnegan’s Wake. I was negatively impressed when read it many year ago, so much so I threw the paperback away. Completely opposite to reaction of Babel 17, which I read first and loved. Have not evan attempted to read any othar Delany books since Dhalgren.
Dhalgren was my first exposure to Delany and honestly, though I do love the book, I find his other works far more compelling. You'd enjoy Empire Star or Triton more based on the reviews of yours that I've watched thus far. Much less 'experimental' sexual encounters, however if you are open to alternate cultures and lifestyles Delany can't be beat. Nova and The Ballad of Beta 2 I think are more indicative of his actual SF writing, Dhalgren is much more a study of human psychology and sociology than hardcore SF like Babel 17. Empire Star is one of my favorites as far as a more cyclic SF storytelling and much more thought provoking. Dhalgren is like a soup of social metaphors that allows you to dive as deeply as you like ...and maybe even don't like - to an uncomfortable fathom. However, that is the point of the novel - you're supposed to explore that intersection between horror and erotic. Much like the event at the bottom of the elevator shaft as Kidd is hoisting up the deceased body. Like looking at yourself through Mirrors, Lens and Prisms. The image you project (as a hologram) or the true self that hides within. Very challenging if you care to dive that deep.
Hey Rachel. Wow... so, The Female Man and now Dhalgren? I feel like you're making your way through all the controversial, incomprehensible books I read in my 20s! I agree with everything you said about Dhalgren... except I personally found it a great idea, great setting, but in the end pretty boring. At first I was very interested in unravelling the mystery, but after a while I just got annoyed at Delaney for forcing me to jump through hoops for apparently no reason. I got the feeling he was throwing everything in there that may have intense personal meaning for him, but unless you are inside his head there's no way you can figure out what the point of any of it is. I think the best "Rosetta Stone" to try and make sense of this book is his collection of short stories, "Driftglass". Many of the themes in Dhalgren appear in those short stories in sort of embryo form: the doom-laden sexual ambiguity and intimacy-less sex ("Aye, and Gomorrah..."), the purposely disorienting writing, the Hell's Angels gang ("We, in some strange power's employ, move in a rigorous line"), personal relationships sabotaged by lack of self awareness (The Star Pit) and on and on. I think Delaney is a very intelligent, very gifted writer who approaches his fiction as an artist, not a pop writer. He's not interested in being clear, he's interested in... something else. Anyway, good job! Looking forward to your other videos.
+santos D I'm really impressed by Delany as an author and a person, though I haven't read any of his biographical work yet. He comes across as intelligent, interesting in many different things, and like you say he seems interested in "something else" that other SFF authors don't seem to be. His art, for art's sake. It's really challenging, but fascinating to read his work. I'm going to continue reading his Neveryon series right now.
+Kalanadi Yes! Please comment on his other work! I'll definitely watch. I've only read Dalghren, the short stories as well as Babel 17, which was ok, but felt more like a better than average but run of the mill early 60's sci fi, like he hadn't hit his stride yet.. As always, great job Rachel! Thanks!
More power to you for powering through all the sex and finishing this book in totality 😂 I’ll read romance, and erotica but the way the sex was approached in this book, it’s been years since I gave up on this like 20 min into the audiobook but “de-eroticized” is a great way to put it, I’m comforted to know that it wasn’t actually me not comprehending the tone or whatever it’s just not for everyone. Love that you finished with “don’t start with dhalgren, start with these other titles” I went into it having no idea that book was challenging. 😂 Thank you for the video!
I love this review. Sounds like Heinlein. I don't like reading Heinlein, so what I'm saying is that it doesn't sound like my bag, but it sounds like you got a lot out of it! It does sound very interesting, especially the quality of writing.
tarabyt3 I get you about Heinlein. I think Delany is weirder / pushing the boundaries even more than Heinlein (well, I've only read The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress and Stranger in a Strange Land). I *really* understand why this book isn't suitable for a lot of tastes! I'm not sure I know anyone I would heartily recommend it to!
tarabyt3 I can't remember much of Heinlein's writing style. A little embarrassing since I had to study that in university. My dad's read a lot of his stuff and from talking to him I think I should try his earlier work one more time. Just to see!
Man, I can't remember much of what I read 2 months ago. Don't feel bad. XD Let me know how it strikes you! I've only read about 5 of his books (ranging between '59 and '84), but the only one I liked was one of his last, Job: A Comedy of Justice. And his short story "The Roads Must Roll." I LOVED that. I've often been told I should try The Door into Summer but I mostly don't want to touch anything. XD
tarabyt3 I think "The Door into Summer" is a Heinlein novel that Jo Walton recommended in her What Makes This Book So Great collection. I had it on my to read list because of that, so I might try it.
Just finished this book, and I rather enjoyed it despite some minor complaints. The sex parts was a bit much, and I am by no means a prude when it comes to reading books with overt sexual content. Someone said it’s SF’s Finnegan’s wake, but I’d say SF’s The Magic Mountain would be a lil more apt.
I thought this was a good review, I'm not sure why you think it was so bad! I have the book and decided to give it a go, now that I know the writing might become more comprehendible as it goes on.
Truth time - no interest in reading this book :/ But I loved hearing your thoughts, and think you managed to put together a darn good review, if I do say so myself :)
TheReadingOutlaw Honestly, if I had known a ton about Dhalgren before I committed to it, I wouldn't have tried it either. And perhaps I would have missed out on the experience, but I completely understand why it doesn't appeal to people!
For me it felt like the part of PKD's "Lies Inc" where he got shot with the LSD lazed dart, leaving you whith the Question: Is this realy what is happaning, and if it is... WHY & HOW? Making it impossible to construct a logical conscise picture of whats going on. I think there is a thin line in new wave sci fi between boring, predictable and disheveling, nonsensical and Dhalgren has clearly gone too far on the latter.
You’ll find that Dhalgren with stays with you. I read it first forty years ago, I was fourteen. What I can say, the more time passes in ones life, the more the themes become clear, and maybe relevant. Who could have predicted the desensitized hookup culture of Dhalgren today and the advent of Tinder, Grinder, Pornhub, Instagram, and everything else that separates our mind, body and soul.
I don't know if you were the right person to review this. Seems pretty outside your wheelhouse especially based on your comments about Delaney's sexuality.
![The Earthsea Cycle by Ursula K. Le Guin [CC]](/img/n.gif)
I’ve loved this book since my mid-teens (about 45 years now). It is a challenging read and it’s definitely challenging to try to describe it to anyone who hasn’t read it. You did a great job with this video!👍📖
Really great review, I agreed and disagreed on several major points.
1. I really appreciated your description of the Richards as "the weirdest people in Bellona," there really is no other way to view a heteronormative nuclear family in a space that's radically queer and polyamorous.
2. I disagree on the sex being gratuitous, though I would agree that it's not necessarily erotic. The descriptions as I remember them are very corporeal and visceral and as you note lack an emotional dimension which would make the scenes more properly erotic. What's interesting to note is that concurrent to Dhalgren, SRD wrote two pornographic works- Hogg, which I attempted to read but couldn't finish because it's about pedophilia and rape and was disgusting in every way imaginable, and The Tides of Lust which I have not attempted.
3. The mobius strip aspect of the novel's form is, to me, the only assertion about Dhalgren's structure that can be made with absolute certainty. Roughly halfway through the novel, counted in terms of 'movements' Kid even says "the tape flipped." I believe it was William Gibson in his introduction to the novel who said that Dhalgren is a riddle meant to be solved, though a riddle has a solution regardless of whether it should or shouldn't be solved-- Dhalgren is utterly without solution and in fact Delany seems to delight in thwarting the reader's desire to solve the mysteries of the story (the clearest evidence of this is the scene in which Tak and Kid are in the MSE warehouse, Kid discovers that orchids, light shields and the eyecaps are all just schlocky kitsch for sale on the commodities market- i.e. their purpose is to function as mysteries, but mysteries without meaning).
4. Your comment on the likeliness of the work being semi-autobiographical is pretty spot on, there are 2 instances that most readily come to mind. The first is that in the early sixties during the beginning of his marriage to Marilyn Hacker and his writing career, SRD suffered a nervous breakdown and spent some time in an outpatient mental facility- as I recall he'd developed a crippling fear of being underground. The second instance is that SRD hitch-hiked down to the Gulf to work on shrimp boats, and Kid makes a one-off comment about having done something similar and he attempts to recall what the other workers called him, thinking his true name might be revealed. (Those anecdotes are from SRD's autobiography covering his early life, The Motion of Light in Water- I highly recommend it if you feel you're becoming a fan of his. Perhaps of more immediate relevance to Dhalgren is SRD's Heavenly Breakfast, which details his time in a commune.)
Sorry for the run-on, and there's definitely more to say. I was excited to see this review as I'd caught the Babel-17 one so I hoped you'd get to Dhalgren because it really is a wonderful book. And I'm writing my thesis on Dhalgren, so it's always fun to see other people read it and document their feelings about it.
Jacob Kroth Ooo, you have some really great notes about Dhalgren! I really should read some of Delany's memoirs. I'm not usually interested in what parts of their lives authors incorporate into their work, but Delany is an exception. He seems like a fascinating guy.
I read that bit by Gibson in his essay about Dhalgren too, which made me relax and just read the novel without trying to "solve" the riddle all the way. I think I got through the book rather easily because I accepted early on that maybe the story wasn't going to make complete sense to me... and that was fine because smarter people than me haven't figured it out either!
After thinking about the book more, and hearing more about it, I would probably revise my thoughts about the sex being gratuitous. Because that doesn't appear to me to be the intention; gratuitous would imply without purpose and certainly it's all there for a reason. For me, I think the reason all the sex exists in the novel isn't as relevant as it might have been back in the sci fi genre in the 70's.
Beautiful analysis. I agree with so much.
I've read it twice, when I was 20 in 1975 and again in the early 90s. Now I'm listening to it on Audible. There are things about the story that you don't get as you admitted and that's fine. Even though I was there and waking up to my sexuality at the time, There are things about this book that I don't get. I do love it though. Listening to it in audible I'm loving it more even though I have reservations of the narrator's voicing of the characters. I liked your review very much and I think you get more of it than you give yourself credit for. It is not a normal story by design. It's supposed to be a tough read. It's not the same story I read in 75 and I'm not being cute with that, because of course I'm not the same person reading it, but the story has changed as the culture has changed and we read it with a different understanding than we had then. The fact that it's still a great story is proof that it not just addressing our culture then, it's talking to us now too. Again, thank you for your review.
I started reading Dhalgren six months ago and now I'm trapped in Bellona. There's something so haunting and compelling about this book but I'm not quite sure how to describe it. Really enjoyed your review. Nobody I know has read the book so it's nice to hear someone else's perspective.
I feel like I've been trying to get through it for years. The advice to try other Delany before tackling Dhalgren again is advice that I plan to take, but like you, the peculiar, haunting quality of the book has me thinking about it regularly.
The setting, the orchid maguffin, the almost possessed journalling frenzies Kid has married with the inane Sim-like conversations he has with people create a really unusual blend. I almost feel like I'm listening to this Biosphere track at the same time as I'm watching a sitcom.
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DAz5WCmj-KF8&ved=2ahUKEwi_35Gxu4XgAhWRIDQIHYbMDvgQjjgwAXoECAIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2W5l6Qs4ZksgmBUhlNuOOr
I felt a little insane when I finished it. It was like tripping on mushrooms
It's been 2 years since that comment. Are you still trapped in Bellona?
Really thoughtful and honest review. I particularly liked your point about the sense of intention behind every sentence in the book. That was *exactly* what stood out for me when I first read it -- the sense even while the story was mysterious, ambiguous, and difficult to understand, the intent *behind* the story, whatever it was that was propelling the sentences forward, was totally coherent and lucid. (Even if I couldn't pin that intention down and name it.)
I'm glad someone else thought that way about Delany's prose! Even now, months after reading Dhalgren, that sense of purpose is what stays with me. It was very interesting reading Nova after Dhalgren too, because I thought it was a little similar in the writing and in other elements. Even if I don't understand or completely enjoy a lot of what Delany writes about, I'm just continually impressed at how great a *writer* he is! That's rare.
Wow, what an honest in-depth review. Love it. Decades ago against your advice, this was my first Delany read. I finished it like Ulysses. I've heard tell from reputable sources that Prince's character The Kid from Purple Rain had birth in Delany's Kid.
Andrew Ceyton I would not be surprised to hear Prince was influenced by Dhalgren at all! That's interesting. Dhalgren really is a challenging read and I feel like my reading horizons have been expanded. Not sure I would want to read Ulysses though... don't know if I could take that! :-)
You can't read this without all those tabs. Totally get that! Truly amazing book
I really like the review -- the funny thing is that for Delany the sex is actually really vanilla!
A late acquaintance of mine had to point out to me what was obvious: the first explicit sexual encounter in the book is pretty lousy, arises from a sense of obligation, and leaves both people feeling kind of embarrassed. It's the opposite of erotic, and it's very real.
Thanks. It's SO good to see younger folk study and appreciate this great work of art.
Why do you think this book is a work of art? I haven't read it yet
@@MrsDixon-ip8vb I can't really explain. Dahlgren came out at a specific time, and along with making us think, it mostly projected a very unique slice of life. People who have read Dahlgren are quite reluctant to recommend it to anybody because the book can be reviewed in so many ways. My comment merely concerned my admiration that younger folk are keeping an almost 50 year old novel alive, and that the author is still here to talk about it. Thanks for your reply.
Good job on this. I remember when Dhalgren came out, and remember the tone of some of the reviews. I was 13 years old and had already read a lot of 'New Wave' sf writing, so I was somewhat well-equipped to 'conquer' it ... but it defeated me at the time and I stopped somewhere in the first third. I have always wanted to go back to it.
The struggle of reading this book is part of what makes it great. Read it again (haha) Its totally ok to read this first, I bought it at a library sale because the cover looked cool and it was $0.25
The struggle... yes. I'm 64 and have read it three times. I hope to see the fourth and fifth times
I finished reading Dhalgren on a camping trip in the 80s and then give it to my cousin. I always regretted giving it away, but recently I picked up another copy, but haven't re-read it yet. I also read The Einstein Intersection back in the 80s and again recently, but still don't know what it is about. Heavenly Breakfast is an interesting book about when he was living in a commune in 67/68.
I loved this book. It was a "trip" and it changed what I did as an artist. His writing is magical...he can blow a 100 pages on the history of toys and I would somehow keep reading.
Thank you for a wonderful revisit. I read this back in college, while I was still consuming large quantities of sci-fi and fantasy. In the book, what struck me were the parallels to Dante's Inferno. From the start it seemed he was coming-to from his death experience, waking by the suicide forest. The notebook is his guide in the travels through this hell. The scorpions were like devils projecting a fearsome aspect with lasers and prisms. Tak, the arch devil. There are many ways to look at this book, this was the one that resonated most with me as I read it. I too had a difficult time with certain aspects, being sex normative as they say nowaday, but this was offset by my underlying desire to seek the the truth in the human condition, vicarious as it will sometimes be.
I just picked this book up, Delany is my favorite author by far. Have you read the Neveryon series? I absolutely LOVE it, 10/10 recommend.
I’m reading this now.... saving this video for when I’m done!
We need more reviews on this book. I am definitely doing one when I'm done. Can't wait
I really love Nova, tore through it and incredibly evocative. The other of his I've read was Triton, which sounds a bit similar to this book, incredibly offputting at times,l and difficult yo get through, but it's also in some ways a critique of the main character's perspective, I wonder if that's the case here as well.
I have read it 5 or more times over the last 35 years and still never grasped the book, it is probably one of the most complex books I have read, I did have a laugh as it was my first Delany book but did read Nova and Babel 17 in the 80's and enjoyed them. do have Dhalgren on my ebook and will be reading again after I finish Cats Cradle
Somebody answer me this, please: what is Kidd's light shield supposed to be? Im just about entering the Brass Orchids party and this is the 2nd time they mention Kid lighting up. And Im so sick of waiting to know lol
I enjoyed this very much. I loved Dhalgren back in the day (difficulties and ambiguous feelings included) and I think you reviewed it in a great way
Why is this considered a cult classic I wonder?
"Stars in my Pocket like Grains of Sand" might also be a better first Delany book. It's similarly sexual and introspective but more of a love story so perhaps better received.
I read in '78 and was quite mesmerized. I think it was the humanistic theme...crossing race, age, class boundaries...never read anything like it...
That was an excellent review, you made me curious: so that's another book added to my ever growing list of books I want to buy! (I think I need to win the lottery!)
Finbarr Farragher I wish I could win the lottery too and buy all the books I want! =D
Great review, and regarding the sex I think a gay guy would read those parts and just think, oh, it's an honest depiction of a young, out of the closet, gay guy. Many gay guys in cities like New York or San Francisco were having lots of sex starting in the 60s.
Today Delany could write it and have less sex, and it would be just as honest, but I think back in 1974 he was making a point about just getting the reality of gay life out there. Lol, I can see he got his point across, and you're taking away from the book a more true to life understanding of the sex life of people like Delany, or at least how he was when younger.
Imo the amounts of sex were partly about defiance, and as an affirmation that they were a community. And of course there's the connection to drug use, because if you're defying society about sex, one might as well be defiant about that.
Now, I'll leave you with this, and that's when you reread Dhalgren years from now, you'll have much less notice of the sex. It's sort of like if your housemate has his girlfriend over, the first time they go at it in the bedroom while you're home, you can't help but be aware. After a month or two, it's barely background noise.
And maybe as a gay guy who had to deal with prejudice, Delany was teaching his readers to not give a frack about gay guys have sex. I think the following article would be worth your time. www.theparisreview.org/interviews/6088/the-art-of-fiction-no-210-samuel-r-delany
Interesting analysis! I've only read Nova (and it immediately became one of my most favourite books ever) and La Intersección de Einstein - I'm from argentina... I was about 15 back then and that second novel took me three tries to finally get hooked in the story. I think we studied surrealism or some other avant garde at school and that helped me understand that I ought to make an experience out of reading it, rather than expecting a classic kind of narrative, if I wanted to grasp any kind of meaning... I still remember the visual impression it had on me... Maybe i should revisit it, fifteen years later (hahaha). It stroke me that the wrinting in Dhalgren is blunt and sturdy, Nova is so descriptive and full of texture... That to me eliminates any doubt of it being intended! Of course there was translation amidst when i read it, but still was a beautiful style.
I haven't read Dhalgren (will do, even in english if i'm able!), but hearing your comments regarding the sex scenes makes me think a little bit of Bukowski... Who knows if there is some sort of implicit quote or offset dialogue there... Anyway, your words tempted me!! Will search for it tomorrow!!
Be proud to have finished Dhalgren!
It's impossible to divorce the sexual elements from the thematic elements in Delany's prose. I can see how that instantly places Delany into a niche, despite the extremely high quality of the prose. I also see the Kid as a queer version of the sort of character Dennis Hopper portrayed in the Last Movie. This was my first encounter with Delany. I picked this up in the late 90s when Vintage was putting out lots of significant reissue series. The William Gibson introduction was the perfect bait for 14 year old me. Thanks for the review! I need to reread this.
2:38 One of the books in Tak's place was _"Hell's Angels"_ by Hunter S. Thompson
Cool review…I admire you for “climbing that mountain “
I own both this and Babel-17 but haven't read either yet. I think I'll start with Babel-17 due to your suggestion. Good review.
That's impressive praise, you've definitely got me curious now. I've just look and there's a nice new edition being released in a few months that will match both Babel and Dhalgren, which is nice timing.
FinalBlowJoe I'm waiting for that edition of Nova too! Very much looking forward to it, since so many people have recommended Nova to me.
Good review- thanks.
a very nice review, thank you.
Nova is quite good. I tried Dhalgren but only got about a quarter way through, but I think I might give it another try.
persontruthbeauty I'm looking forward to Nova! I'm collecting SF Masterworks editions and I think the Nova edition is coming out in November. I wonder if Dhalgren is one of those most often abandoned books :-) I think I succeeded because I took it a little bit at a time and it did grow on me.
+trha2222 Try Empire Star - if you liked Nova, you'll ES.
trha2222 Really? That's unfortunate, I really thought ES was much more thought provoking like Ballad and Babel. However as it is a Space Opera I suppose it is much more accessible and entertaining for the general public. To each their own I suppose.
Nova is my 1st SRD read. I've read more times than I can recall. Got to push through on Dalgren eventually.
I remember watching this around the time that I was reading Dhalgren for the first time. It helped me feel like I could get through the longest and most difficult book I had ever read up to that point. I now consider Dhalgren to be my favorite book and am now rereading it and finding so many new things in that broken down labyrinth! Its popular in a way, but rare to run into folks who have read it/"been there" lol so a lil Dhalgren content always means a lot.
I am also juggling Dragonflight and Dragonsong on the side! Your video on them reminded me that I needed to finally get around to Anne...
still one of my favorite books.
Rember hearing Dhalgren was Delany’s attempt to write anothar Finnegan’s Wake. I was negatively impressed when read it many year ago, so much so I threw the paperback away. Completely opposite to reaction of Babel 17, which I read first and loved. Have not evan attempted to read any othar Delany books since Dhalgren.
Dhalgren was my first exposure to Delany and honestly, though I do love the book, I find his other works far more compelling. You'd enjoy Empire Star or Triton more based on the reviews of yours that I've watched thus far. Much less 'experimental' sexual encounters, however if you are open to alternate cultures and lifestyles Delany can't be beat. Nova and The Ballad of Beta 2 I think are more indicative of his actual SF writing, Dhalgren is much more a study of human psychology and sociology than hardcore SF like Babel 17. Empire Star is one of my favorites as far as a more cyclic SF storytelling and much more thought provoking. Dhalgren is like a soup of social metaphors that allows you to dive as deeply as you like ...and maybe even don't like - to an uncomfortable fathom. However, that is the point of the novel - you're supposed to explore that intersection between horror and erotic. Much like the event at the bottom of the elevator shaft as Kidd is hoisting up the deceased body. Like looking at yourself through Mirrors, Lens and Prisms. The image you project (as a hologram) or the true self that hides within. Very challenging if you care to dive that deep.
Hey Rachel.
Wow... so, The Female Man and now Dhalgren? I feel like you're making your way through all the controversial, incomprehensible books I read in my 20s!
I agree with everything you said about Dhalgren... except I personally found it a great idea, great setting, but in the end pretty boring. At first I was very interested in unravelling the mystery, but after a while I just got annoyed at Delaney for forcing me to jump through hoops for apparently no reason.
I got the feeling he was throwing everything in there that may have intense personal meaning for him, but unless you are inside his head there's no way you can figure out what the point of any of it is.
I think the best "Rosetta Stone" to try and make sense of this book is his collection of short stories, "Driftglass". Many of the themes in Dhalgren appear in those short stories in sort of embryo form: the doom-laden sexual ambiguity and intimacy-less sex ("Aye, and Gomorrah..."), the purposely disorienting writing, the Hell's Angels gang ("We, in some strange power's employ, move in a rigorous line"), personal relationships sabotaged by lack of self awareness (The Star Pit) and on and on.
I think Delaney is a very intelligent, very gifted writer who approaches his fiction as an artist, not a pop writer. He's not interested in being clear, he's interested in... something else.
Anyway, good job!
Looking forward to your other videos.
+santos D I'm really impressed by Delany as an author and a person, though I haven't read any of his biographical work yet. He comes across as intelligent, interesting in many different things, and like you say he seems interested in "something else" that other SFF authors don't seem to be. His art, for art's sake. It's really challenging, but fascinating to read his work. I'm going to continue reading his Neveryon series right now.
+Kalanadi
Yes! Please comment on his other work!
I'll definitely watch. I've only read Dalghren, the short stories as well as Babel 17, which was ok, but felt more like a better than average but run of the mill early 60's sci fi, like he hadn't hit his stride yet..
As always, great job Rachel!
Thanks!
Interesting review!
More power to you for powering through all the sex and finishing this book in totality 😂
I’ll read romance, and erotica but the way the sex was approached in this book, it’s been years since I gave up on this like 20 min into the audiobook but “de-eroticized” is a great way to put it, I’m comforted to know that it wasn’t actually me not comprehending the tone or whatever it’s just not for everyone. Love that you finished with “don’t start with dhalgren, start with these other titles” I went into it having no idea that book was challenging. 😂
Thank you for the video!
I love this review. Sounds like Heinlein. I don't like reading Heinlein, so what I'm saying is that it doesn't sound like my bag, but it sounds like you got a lot out of it! It does sound very interesting, especially the quality of writing.
tarabyt3 I get you about Heinlein. I think Delany is weirder / pushing the boundaries even more than Heinlein (well, I've only read The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress and Stranger in a Strange Land). I *really* understand why this book isn't suitable for a lot of tastes! I'm not sure I know anyone I would heartily recommend it to!
Fair enough! I didn't really mind Heinlein pushing boundaries so much as the way he wrote it. So who knows!
tarabyt3 I can't remember much of Heinlein's writing style. A little embarrassing since I had to study that in university. My dad's read a lot of his stuff and from talking to him I think I should try his earlier work one more time. Just to see!
Man, I can't remember much of what I read 2 months ago. Don't feel bad. XD
Let me know how it strikes you! I've only read about 5 of his books (ranging between '59 and '84), but the only one I liked was one of his last, Job: A Comedy of Justice. And his short story "The Roads Must Roll." I LOVED that. I've often been told I should try The Door into Summer but I mostly don't want to touch anything. XD
tarabyt3 I think "The Door into Summer" is a Heinlein novel that Jo Walton recommended in her What Makes This Book So Great collection. I had it on my to read list because of that, so I might try it.
Just finished this book, and I rather enjoyed it despite some minor complaints. The sex parts was a bit much, and I am by no means a prude when it comes to reading books with overt sexual content. Someone said it’s SF’s Finnegan’s wake, but I’d say SF’s The Magic Mountain would be a lil more apt.
This book seems like "A Lot" from what the reviewers and summarizers are saying. I think I will read "NOVA" instead.
Read other works by him first...got it. Now to find Babel 17
Let's Read Or be a rebel and jump straight to Dhalgren! =D
Sounds James Joyce esque
I thought this was a good review, I'm not sure why you think it was so bad! I have the book and decided to give it a go, now that I know the writing might become more comprehendible as it goes on.
Also I am motivated to read this book because I just finished a YA novel (gag) and need something with substance.
7:18 Every new show HBO introduces! LOL I prefer the FLASH to Game of Thrones.
Truth time - no interest in reading this book :/ But I loved hearing your thoughts, and think you managed to put together a darn good review, if I do say so myself :)
TheReadingOutlaw Honestly, if I had known a ton about Dhalgren before I committed to it, I wouldn't have tried it either. And perhaps I would have missed out on the experience, but I completely understand why it doesn't appeal to people!
Very brave of you to try picking up that book with one hand so casually. It cud break your wrists
Boy what a good review had to reread the book got done and said what? came away with prob same thing you did I loved it
"every you know I know"
For me it felt like the part of PKD's "Lies Inc" where he got shot with the LSD lazed dart, leaving you whith the Question: Is this realy what is happaning, and if it is... WHY & HOW? Making it impossible to construct a logical conscise picture of whats going on.
I think there is a thin line in new wave sci fi between boring, predictable and disheveling, nonsensical and Dhalgren has clearly gone too far on the latter.
You’ll find that Dhalgren with stays with you. I read it first forty years ago, I was fourteen. What I can say, the more time passes in ones life, the more the themes become clear, and maybe relevant. Who could have predicted the desensitized hookup culture of Dhalgren today and the advent of Tinder, Grinder, Pornhub, Instagram, and everything else that separates our mind, body and soul.
Thanks for EVERYTHING. Especially the part about these books STAYING with you.
....and your analysis about these new sites separating ourselves from our bodies and soul. Terrific.
Excellent review, even though it doesn't make me want to read it....
ixtl guul Dhalgren is one of those books I think few people watching my channel are dying to read :-) I can understand why!
Controversial? No, Incomprehensible and meandering. Sufficient reason to exclude from being praised as a masterpiece.
is there a movie version of it?
_Dhalgren_ would be impossible to film even though much of it is so clear and exact that I easily can picture exactly how it would look on film.
Hugely dense, surreal, poetic but descends into a mess, kinda schizophrenic actually. I couldn't finish it the last 100 pages defeated me.
🏳️🌈🇫🇷🇨🇱🇧🇪⏀
Talk about pointless...
He stole that loop idea from Finnegan Wake
I don't know if you were the right person to review this. Seems pretty outside your wheelhouse especially based on your comments about Delaney's sexuality.
what a pointless remark. embarassing