I just finished reading babel-17, and I absolutely loved it! I had to check if anyone else out there enjoyed it as much as I did, and I pleased to see that you did. Thanks for the virtual comradery around an amazing piece of fiction. :)
This is one of my favorite books by Delany. It's one of those powerful books from the 60s which is punchy, interesting and tells a great story in under 300 pages. It's quite a rush of a story! If you want a more psychedelic 60s story by Delany try Nova. Empire Star which is of novella length is another good one by Delany.
I loved Empire Star! I've read it twice now and the story structure is just fantastic (the kind of mobius beginning/end reminded me of Dhalgren, perhaps it's something Delany does a lot). Sadly Nova hasn't proved as memorable for me.
@@Kalanadi Let me give a big thumbs up and recommendation for a Delany story Collection called Distant Stars. It's stunningly illustrated and I had to look for it a very long time, and got lucky picking up a nice copy for $2 at Half-Price Books in the clearance. It has Empire, Prismatica and other good stories. One I like particularly is We in some strange power's employ, move on a rigorous line. It's a bit on character, but more on ideology. Delany Mary Sues with a take your choice and take your chances hero/villain, and the other character of note is based on Roger Zelazny, another 60s author whose star is not quite so bright these days. (His estate needs a better literary executor.)
I just finished this book and really enjoyed it! I really liked the way he wrote and was also excited to discover your channel! It was really informative without spoilers, so I appreciated that!
I wrote about this book as my thesis in college. Pretty damn good! (The book not my thesis.) if you want a horror movie with similar themes, Pontypool is pretty damn good, too.
it's an amazing book. Would also recommend "Stars In My Pocket Like Grains of Sand" and "Nova" (which you mentioned). Also Marilyn Hacker, his one-time partner, is an amazing poet.
Yep, it seems like something I probably would have heard about on your channel (if that makes sense!). And I got the exact same edition of The Female Man that you just talked about too!
I really loved the linguistic elements and made me think of Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson. Just also finished The Einstein Intersection, which was also impressive! Thanks for the video!
Obviously my interest in this is fueled by it's constant reference in Among Others. Dhalgren looks intense. It's one of those "before I die" but not in a hurry goals. It looks difficult.
Let's Read Have you read any of Walton's essays/blog posts on SFF books? (Many of which are mentioned in Among Others). A lot of them are collected in What Makes This Book So Great, which was a *fantastic* read. She really does read everything. I had no idea Dhalgren was such a beast when I put it on my to-read list this year. I will rise to the challenge!
+Let's Read I know it has been a year since your post, but in the oft chance you haven't yet read Dhalgren I would like to ease your mind as to its difficulty. It is not. The novel looks to be a bit of a tar pit, like Umberto Ecco's Foucault's Pendulum - however the story in not as complex as you might think only the general concept. The narrative is reflective of the protagonist's own journey, somewhat confusing and disjointed, and the end is clever in that you get to choose how you finish the story - much like the diary the main character keeps. It isn't a linear account, but a collection of experiences in a world experienced by someone that has no past (as he has amnesia) and no definite future. It is a fascinating read and if you enjoy any of Delany's work, you'll be right at home as it very reminiscent of Triton or Star in my Pocket. Don't be intimidated by the thickness of the book - you'll find you'll cut through it like butter and there are very convenient resting points where you can put the book down without losing your place in the story.
Some of Denany's later stuff is dense but Babel-17 is in some ways classic SF, a wild raucous ride. It has a lot in common, imo, with The Stars My Destination by Alfred Bester. Both are proto-cyberpunk.
Hey! Babel-17... Nice. I just found *Nova* at a used bookstore for $1.75, reading it now. I actually DO like his writing style a lot. I mentioned in another thread I really enjoyed Driftglass, his collection of short stories. Good job Kalanadi!
I've been trying to read this book for weeks but found it difficult to get into. Been trying to force myself to start again and read it by keeping it in my bag so your review has helped confirm that I need to pick it back up again. If you have time or haven't already - please review Captives of the Flame by the same author! I really enjoyed this book and would love to know what you think if you haven't read it.
I just wanted to say that I absolutely love this book. It actually was one of the books that changed my life, so to speak. It definitely changed the way I look at both language and communication and led me to read a number of Delany's works (as he is one of my favorite authors). I really wish someone would have adapted this and possibly The Ballad of Beta 2 into a screenplay as I think they would make amazing movie adaptations. However so of his points are a bit esoteric - however I found the 'vibrant' language very apropos for the subject matter. Even though I read this novel about 25 years ago, I still often reflect on ideas and memes presented in the novel and having read the novel - it has changed me. Very meta if you contemplate it. It inspired my own didactic plunge into linguistics and I've been an avid fan ever since. Definitely one of my favorites on my bookshelf of treasured novels (I actually have an autographed copy). Glad to see others have found this little jewel.
Just remembered and confirmed that Heinlein mentions the hypothesis by name in the short story "Gulf." Apparently John W. Campbell liked the hypothesis and encouraged his regular writers to include it in their stories.
Adam Brupbacher Why am I not surprised that this is an idea Campbell wanted his writers to use? :-) Sapir-Whorf seems like the kind of idea that would have been aaalll the rage in SF back then! Hopefully I will get to Banks' use of it, if it's in the Culture series. I am also sadly under-read when it comes to Heinlein. I need to read at least one of his works as an adult, since I last read him when I was very young.
@@Kalanadi The Player of Games by Banks is probably the one people associate with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, though Consider Phlebas touches on it, as does Excession, imo anyway. For Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress might the one that most impressed SF fans, and which is remembered the most fondly. It's also something of an ode to Libertarianism. The Door Into Summer is another crowd pleaser, and while the future technologies referenced in it are dated, his plotting is masterfully crafted. Methuselah's Children was an influential work, and it speeds along nicely.
My wife detests late in the career books by Arthur C Clarke. She calls Rama, Imperial Earth and other books of this period solar system travelogues. FWIW, I just found Rama uninteresting. It was describing the great alien wonder and I didn't give a single crap for the really wooden characters.
You do the best reviews Rachel. Teach me your ways! I'm fascinated that this was written so long ago and features a diverse character (a woman no less!) by a gay author. So interesting!
I lucked out on this review! I filmed right after rolling out of bed so... yay. I think Delany is one of those authors who has always done his own thing, and he hasn't been afraid of pushing boundaries. It makes me excited for Dahlgren!
I like how your TV is covered up by books
I just finished reading babel-17, and I absolutely loved it! I had to check if anyone else out there enjoyed it as much as I did, and I pleased to see that you did. Thanks for the virtual comradery around an amazing piece of fiction. :)
This is one of my favorite books by Delany. It's one of those powerful books from the 60s which is punchy, interesting and tells a great story in under 300 pages. It's quite a rush of a story! If you want a more psychedelic 60s story by Delany try Nova. Empire Star which is of novella length is another good one by Delany.
I loved Empire Star! I've read it twice now and the story structure is just fantastic (the kind of mobius beginning/end reminded me of Dhalgren, perhaps it's something Delany does a lot). Sadly Nova hasn't proved as memorable for me.
@@Kalanadi Let me give a big thumbs up and recommendation for a Delany story Collection called Distant Stars. It's stunningly illustrated and I had to look for it a very long time, and got lucky picking up a nice copy for $2 at Half-Price Books in the clearance. It has Empire, Prismatica and other good stories. One I like particularly is We in some strange power's employ, move on a rigorous line. It's a bit on character, but more on ideology. Delany Mary Sues with a take your choice and take your chances hero/villain, and the other character of note is based on Roger Zelazny, another 60s author whose star is not quite so bright these days. (His estate needs a better literary executor.)
I just finished this book and really enjoyed it! I really liked the way he wrote and was also excited to discover your channel! It was really informative without spoilers, so I appreciated that!
I wrote about this book as my thesis in college. Pretty damn good! (The book not my thesis.) if you want a horror movie with similar themes, Pontypool is pretty damn good, too.
This was such an awesome review! I am so intrigued now!
I am still surprised at how diverse this book was... it's definitely worth the read if you're interested in early sci fi works!
it's an amazing book. Would also recommend "Stars In My Pocket Like Grains of Sand" and "Nova" (which you mentioned). Also Marilyn Hacker, his one-time partner, is an amazing poet.
I just bought this (that exact edition!) so it was great to hear your thoughts on it. Definitely sounds like it's going to be up my alley!
Yep, it seems like something I probably would have heard about on your channel (if that makes sense!). And I got the exact same edition of The Female Man that you just talked about too!
I'm looking forward to a review of Nova!
I'm looking forward to a review of Nova.
Did you ever end up reading Nova? I'd love to hear your review on it!
I really loved the linguistic elements and made me think of Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson. Just also finished The Einstein Intersection, which was also impressive! Thanks for the video!
Great review! Thank you.
Obviously my interest in this is fueled by it's constant reference in Among Others. Dhalgren looks intense. It's one of those "before I die" but not in a hurry goals. It looks difficult.
Let's Read Have you read any of Walton's essays/blog posts on SFF books? (Many of which are mentioned in Among Others). A lot of them are collected in What Makes This Book So Great, which was a *fantastic* read. She really does read everything.
I had no idea Dhalgren was such a beast when I put it on my to-read list this year. I will rise to the challenge!
I'm so new to Jo Walton. Will be exploring her work extensively in the future.
+Let's Read I know it has been a year since your post, but in the oft chance you haven't yet read Dhalgren I would like to ease your mind as to its difficulty. It is not. The novel looks to be a bit of a tar pit, like Umberto Ecco's Foucault's Pendulum - however the story in not as complex as you might think only the general concept. The narrative is reflective of the protagonist's own journey, somewhat confusing and disjointed, and the end is clever in that you get to choose how you finish the story - much like the diary the main character keeps. It isn't a linear account, but a collection of experiences in a world experienced by someone that has no past (as he has amnesia) and no definite future. It is a fascinating read and if you enjoy any of Delany's work, you'll be right at home as it very reminiscent of Triton or Star in my Pocket. Don't be intimidated by the thickness of the book - you'll find you'll cut through it like butter and there are very convenient resting points where you can put the book down without losing your place in the story.
Nexus2Eden That's very comforting to know. I'll bump Dhalgren up the list and approach it more eagerly. Thanks for the help.
Some of Denany's later stuff is dense but Babel-17 is in some ways classic SF, a wild raucous ride. It has a lot in common, imo, with The Stars My Destination by Alfred Bester. Both are proto-cyberpunk.
Hey! Babel-17... Nice.
I just found *Nova* at a used bookstore for $1.75, reading it now. I actually DO like his writing style a lot. I mentioned in another thread I really enjoyed Driftglass, his collection of short stories.
Good job Kalanadi!
I've been trying to read this book for weeks but found it difficult to get into. Been trying to force myself to start again and read it by keeping it in my bag so your review has helped confirm that I need to pick it back up again.
If you have time or haven't already - please review Captives of the Flame by the same author! I really enjoyed this book and would love to know what you think if you haven't read it.
I just wanted to say that I absolutely love this book. It actually was one of the books that changed my life, so to speak. It definitely changed the way I look at both language and communication and led me to read a number of Delany's works (as he is one of my favorite authors). I really wish someone would have adapted this and possibly The Ballad of Beta 2 into a screenplay as I think they would make amazing movie adaptations. However so of his points are a bit esoteric - however I found the 'vibrant' language very apropos for the subject matter. Even though I read this novel about 25 years ago, I still often reflect on ideas and memes presented in the novel and having read the novel - it has changed me. Very meta if you contemplate it. It inspired my own didactic plunge into linguistics and I've been an avid fan ever since. Definitely one of my favorites on my bookshelf of treasured novels (I actually have an autographed copy). Glad to see others have found this little jewel.
Ted Chiang's Story of Your Life (basis for the Arrival movie) is based on the same linguistic theory. Try The Stars My Destination.
"Dahlgren" and "Nova" are two of Delany's big hits and so very different from each other (and from "Babel-17"). Enjoy!
Stars in my pocket also very enjoyable
Great review!
Van Vogt and Ian M Banks also explore Sapir/Wharf.
Just remembered and confirmed that Heinlein mentions the hypothesis by name in the short story "Gulf."
Apparently John W. Campbell liked the hypothesis and encouraged his regular writers to include it in their stories.
Adam Brupbacher Why am I not surprised that this is an idea Campbell wanted his writers to use? :-) Sapir-Whorf seems like the kind of idea that would have been aaalll the rage in SF back then! Hopefully I will get to Banks' use of it, if it's in the Culture series.
I am also sadly under-read when it comes to Heinlein. I need to read at least one of his works as an adult, since I last read him when I was very young.
@@Kalanadi The Player of Games by Banks is probably the one people associate with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, though Consider Phlebas touches on it, as does Excession, imo anyway. For Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress might the one that most impressed SF fans, and which is remembered the most fondly. It's also something of an ode to Libertarianism. The Door Into Summer is another crowd pleaser, and while the future technologies referenced in it are dated, his plotting is masterfully crafted. Methuselah's Children was an influential work, and it speeds along nicely.
My wife detests late in the career books by Arthur C Clarke. She calls Rama, Imperial Earth and other books of this period solar system travelogues. FWIW, I just found Rama uninteresting. It was describing the great alien wonder and I didn't give a single crap for the really wooden characters.
This is exactly what I needed to get me more excited to read this book later this year. :D Thanks!
tarabyt3 You're welcome! It really is an interesting read!
You do the best reviews Rachel. Teach me your ways! I'm fascinated that this was written so long ago and features a diverse character (a woman no less!) by a gay author. So interesting!
I lucked out on this review! I filmed right after rolling out of bed so... yay. I think Delany is one of those authors who has always done his own thing, and he hasn't been afraid of pushing boundaries. It makes me excited for Dahlgren!
What a great review, this is bringing it all back to me :D
New sub... Reading it now. My first Delany!
that sounds SO much like Arrival. I'll have to read it, though.
In a lot of ways it feels that way. I definitely got those vibes early in the book.
Glad you liked it! I remember really loving this when I first read it in high school because I thought the whole linguistics aspect was awesome.
If there's a linguistic subgenre of science fiction, I want more!