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4 More Things Atheists Should Stop Saying
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- Опубліковано 16 сер 2024
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It's unfortunately too common to see atheists online implying that atheism is always rational, that atheists are logical people, or that religious people are always irrational. I'm an atheist, and I see implications like that as absurd and harmful, so I'm here to counter them. Religious people can be reasonable, just reading the Bible doesn't justify atheism, and you can be reasoned out of beliefs you weren't reasoned into.
Like I said in my last video like this (4 Things Atheists Should Never Say), I see a lot of these sayings and ideas as vestiges of "New atheism" from the hayday of The God Delusion, God Is Not Great, and the Four Horsemen: Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and Daniel Dennett. Regardless of their source, atheists shouldn't say these things. Like I've said previously in videos like Why Theists Can't Convert Atheists, we should strive for positive, constructive discourse with theists.
My last video like this:
• 4 Things Atheists Shou...
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This video contains 100% therapeutic grade skepticism.*
*This statement has not been evaluated by the FDA
Critising your own ‘side’ is the start of positive public discourse.
The idea that there even is an "Atheist side" is dumb. Atheists can come from a diversity of background and Atheism+ - like attempts to unify people around a single set of beliefs doesn't make sense.
@@rangergxi Atheists unite around common causes, that is no different to other movements. The believe or non belief is not an issue in this case.
transgender activist Getting as much support for Bernie Sanders as possible is important. He’s the only good candidate for American presidency right now who can beat out Trump. Joe has a large viewer base and if his endorsement means that other people who wouldn’t have otherwise supported Bernie do, then that’s a win. We hurt our own cause by shunning people who support us, and who could potentially be convinced of our side
transgender activist Joe Rogan’s a racist bigot? Do you have any evidence for this, or do you just shut down people trying to have a conversation about trans issues for being “trans-phobic,” just because they don’t believe that gender-changing hormones are good for someone, much less children? When we start accusing before having discussions, we get into trouble. I highly recommend watching Joe Rogan.
transgender activist And I’m sorry, but how is GMS privileged? Why does it matter that he is cis-gender, white, or male? Should I be going on videos of gay black women and calling them out for being gay, black, and a woman? No, because that’s racist and sexist. Take your alt-left ideology out of US culture, you’re giving people a reason to be Conservative, giving them an echo chamber for theism. Just chill the fuck out with “white male privilege,” this is the radicalization of the left that’s destroying US politics and the chance of a Democratic President.
"You're not my disciple, and I'm not your Prophet."
Well there goes my idea for the Cult of Drew...
Mika Schumacher all praise the sacred name of the messiah drew!
@@matthewjohnson3656 better than jesus
Drew: "You're not my disciple, and I'm not your Prophet."
What you wrote Drew predictid you would say.
@@Remake5182 That proves he is the messiah!. Hail his glorious name!
@@matthewjohnson3656 So, the messiah came back affter all.
I wasn’t exposed to the concept of a superior being until kindergarten. I still remember sitting at a table while kids were talking about god and I asked “what’s god” and they got so mad 😂
I still get that response to that question every few moths :)
@@colinellicott9737 well, I’m right here😏
@@GodfreyFirstEldenLord Why do you allow suffering? Why are you hidden? why do you allow slavery? Why do you have to kill your own son for someone else? Let's begin there you feckless thug.
@@colinellicott9737 I am not God, but I will try to answer for Him, as he is both my Friend and Father.
He allows suffering because it provides choice to His creation, allowing Love. There is no Love without hate, unfortunately. He is not hidden, unless you refuse to believe the clear evidence he presents through nature. For slavery see the answer to suffering. He didn't kill his Son, he allowed his Son to die as a Perfect Sacrifice so we don't have to die. Do you have more questions?
@@lancepeterson7997 LMAO. Cod can't even defend itself. More proof of 'hiddenness'.
There was no actual sense in anything you said. The whole world is now stupider for having to listen to that drivel.
"Cod allowing suffering is the consequence of allowing free will" - wow - pathetic. So infants with cancer deserve it because cod gave them free will? Bull shit.
There is no equation or method linking love to hate.
There is no evidence for cod. Literally none. Including 'look at the trees'.
Deflecting by using a non sequitur from the detailed methods of attaining and keeping your slaves in: Exodus 21 & Judges 19 & Romans 2-3, is disingenuous at best, and downright willful ignorance at not even worst.
Your response was so bad I almost didn't respond because you have to be kidding. Right?
I see so many theists in the comments talking about how you help them understand the atheist side and them agreeing on many of your points and I think that's beautiful. atheists and theists have been at a sort of war for so long, each side having a lot of ignorance, and it's so very nice to see all the respectful discussions your sparking. also to show theists that not all of us are bad. I dream for a time when general discussion between atheists and theists will be as respectful as most of this comments section
Me too... I also wish the same for political debates, and I hate how much we've grown to hate each other. Positive change is slowed down so much by all the distorted views we have of each other, I'm so grateful for channels like GMS.
Ironically, in my experience as someone who is a skeptic, you'll only find respectful comments on an atheist's video. It is much rarer to see reciprocation on a religious person's channel. That's been my experience in this negative, vitriolic mudpit.
@Jeanette It's probably because any Christian who is watching an atheist video is probably more aware and respectful toward atheists. I'm not saying Christians are always horrible towards atheists, but I'm saying that the bad eggs of Christianity are going to be watching stuff like this less than religious stuff that they will contradict anyway. They also are probably afraid of being proved wrong in the comments. Anyway I agree with your view. As a Christian myself me and the others that share my religion should be more respectful to others who dont have our worldview.
I want to know if you know what ignorance means and if you know pls explain how atheist are ignorant
@@Michael_Vzharinot the OP but simple : atheism and ignorance are unrelated, at least partially. You don't need to be cultured or knowledgeable to be either, and being cultured or knowledgeable doesn't make you either.
There are plenty of atheists out there who are ignorant of basic science (in my country there is a majority of atheists, sadly quite a lot of them are ignorant of a lot of basic things)
Also to be fair, everyone is ignorant on a lot of topics, which is why I'm talking about basic things : when we talk of ignorance it generally refers to stuff that is easily accessible/understandable and not to advanced knowledge of a specific field)
Edit : there is also often ignorance of how the "other side" in the theism/atheism discourse thinks and reasons about the topic
"Humans have a natural inclination to believe in a god". I have another take on this: Humans have a natural inclination to search for answers. Early humans (from EVERY culture around the world with no exception) would ask themselves, who made that mountain? who made the sun? who made...us? With of course no way to figuring that out, they all attributed to someone or something bigger than themselves, a divine being.
I do think that’s a big part of it. We’re like toddlers, always asking and wanting a “Why,” for everything. Although, I think that the loss of family also has its role it’s played. To think that they lived and died and are gone forever, that there’s no just reward or punishment... I think we also strive for meaning and justice, and the idea of an afterlife is integral to that. Marry that with a belief that someone must be mad if a flood happens, then the afterlife must be ruled by them too. To try to manage risk and live as comfortably as possible, getting on the side of the deity was the next logical step. Hence, religion.
Aethelblack having an understanding of tectonic plates answered the questions about mountains etc. yes, I was so sick of people saying “god made that”, I was fortunate to get answers from my school days. Religious people just seem so lazy when they have the same answer for every question.
"All living being have a tendency to explore and know their enviroment". There.
@@TroyParry74 they live in a Simpson episode
There's also a likely evolutionary advantage in belief in unseen actors. The typical example is motion in tall grass. It might just be a random breeze moving the grass, or it might be a lion. Our ancestors who ran up a tree assuming, without evidence, that the cause was a lion were more likely to survive to reproduce and eventually lead to our existence. As human brains (and culture) became more complex these "unseen actors" were elaborated into a panoply of gods and goddesses.
"Our group doesn't deserve any less scrutiny ..." *Every* viewpoint needs to be tested against the yardstick of reason. Well done, Drew!
Id also suggest against the yardstick of decency and respect for humanity.
@@jonhunter6936 define "decency" "respect" and "humanity", please. These are all moot terms, varying between cultures.
@@annalieff-saxby568 Somethings you just know, you can destroy understanding by over definition.
@@jonhunter6936 That sounds to me like an excuse for lack of intellectual rigour.
ua-cam.com/video/umh5pk097LI/v-deo.html
I love this video. As an atheist, I don’t think it’s ever a good idea to act without compassion or humility. This will only alienate people. Eg. Religion is very sacred to my parents, and I would never berate them for it. Being ok with being potentially wrong is so important. Let’s keep empathy alive.
I will make fun of any one’s belief. I don’t care about the sacrity
@notfiveo The bible cannot be objectively interpreted because the meaning is not 100% understood. That leaves room for subjective interpretation. For example I believe the bible contains stories with the intention of imparting a moral lesson, it contains metaphors. Others believe it is a literal retelling of events. It could be a bit of both, this was afterall the writing style at the time, it has been since ancient greece. Ancient Greek mythology is literally an exaggeration of real life events that have been dramatized. Gods and supernatural entities have been supplanted into real events. Not every greek myth is based on real events, but there are some that are. Illyad and odessy is an example, its a real event that had been mythologized.
as an atheist, i don't believe in god. that's all i can say. i don't see how you can say anything past that since it's a term that only answers one question--do you believe in god? so, "as an atheist," you don't think it's a good idea to act without compassion or humility? whatever. that's not "as an atheist." that's as someone who chooses to behave in those ways as that someone interprets it--and that interpretation is hardly uncontested. not berating someone is not being compassionate or humble any more than not punching someone are these things. not doing something is not being compassionate or humble. DOING something can be compassionate and humble, however. for example, asking questions of those who believe if they have testable and replicable results is extremely humble and compassionate. if they have true knowledge that actually works and that actually improves your life in measurable and practical ways, and you take it on board, well, THAT is humble. when they crumble into illogic and fall apart under nominal scrutiny, THAT is compassionate. you're cracking the foundations of the prison their minds are in.
I bet every atheist starts praying when there is a war or other dangerous situation
@@withoutwords8136 That's a no here.
I've never actually prayed. Not once.
I was never one to flaunt my atheism online, but what you've said has made me reconsider my position. I don't really like labels such as "atheist", "agnostic" etc, but I've come to use "agnostic atheist" to define myself (don't know for sure if God exists, but evidence tends to point to no). I've always known this was mostly because I grew up in a nonreligious, atheistic family.
Until a few years ago, I could privately be somewhat scornful of religious display (but I think that's mostly because I'm French and those are very much frowned upon; American religious exhibitionism tends to be quite the culture shock). Never with my theist friends, but just stuff I heard or saw that made me scoff inside. But your video, along with other experiences and thoughts, have made me reconsider where my lack of belief comes from, and if I should really be proud of it.
Now, I'm never becoming a theist, in part because I believe there IS an inherent lack of reason and indoctrination in religious upbringings that make my skin crawl. However, I think I should be more watchful of the frustration that can sometimes slip out during debates about religion, especially online where it's easier to let yourself be aggressive and unreasonable behind the curtain of anonymity.
I would actually implore you to re-evaluate your stance further and say that there is no evidence, and that belief is a construct one creates in the absence of facts and evidence, like a creative activity that speculates into what might exist in the unknown. In athiesm its simply that they don't believe there is a god. There is no evidence because we lack the omniscience and means necessary to detect a consciousness that permeates the universe. If you mean religion then I can understand, but theism doesn't have any evidence for or against, at least, nothing past subjective evidence. There is subjective evidence then there is material evidence. For example seeing the intelligent design in life could is subjective evidence, but it doesn't sufficiently amount to proof. It is based on the material but the evidence itself is a subjective as it relies on the observers interpretation.
@@michaelpapageorgious5053 I would like to believe that you are a fully conscious entity and, judging from your well thought out post, capable of intentional intelligent design. I guess what is self-evident to one can be subjective to another. Peace and love, brother.
@@todradmaker4297 only facts are self-evident. Something cannot be both unverifiable and self-evident. We must be realists when it comes to ontology, and acknowledge that belief is not based on things being self-evident but rather created in the absence of that. Intelligent design theory cannot be self evident by the nature of it being a theory.
What exactly is there to "flaunt"?
@@michaelpapageorgious5053
"In athiesm its simply that they don't believe there is a god."
No, no. Atheism is the belief that there is no god. Atheists have a problem with theistic beliefs because they _have_ a belief and want to _change_ the beliefs of others. Now, perhaps not all atheists care about the beliefs of others. You can hold a belief, think others are wrong, and see no point in correcting them. But, if you have no opinion on whether they are right or wrong, it is meaningless to "correct" them.
Saying religious people can’t reason is like saying atheists can’t be moral. Great video, you represented humanity well in my opinion.
Your words and this video has satisfy me.
It's not that theists can't reason, it's that they *choose* not to, with regard to their religious beliefs. Historically some theists have successfully used reason to _clarify_ their belief systems. But those who have attempted to _justify_ their beliefs using reason have produced works that are either laughable or pitiful, occasionally both.
@@broddr what u talking bout?
It's more about the way they try to reason.
Brad Hansen I suppose it works both ways with theist thinking the atheist is faulty in their reasoning. It would be great if we could somehow properly assign number values to everything and then no longer argue about who is being reasonable or not. 2+2=4 is agreed by all. Then again in complex math well, we argue just the same.
1. 1:23 "We're all born Atheists until someone starts lying to us."
2. 3:56 "Reading the Bible will make you an Atheist."
3. 6:13 "You can't be reasoned out of something you weren't reasoned into."
4. 9:30 "Atheism and Atheists are honest/rational/reasonable."
I wish the viewers could add chapters to the progress bar.
First up reading the bible(cover to cover) for most theist really is the main driving factor for leaving their faith as most only tend to ingest bite size, easy to rationalize segments of the bible.
Secondly, "you can't reason someone out of what they didn't reason themselves into" is the accurate quote, and universaly you really can't, the vast majority find their own way out. That's why most internet discussions don't go anywhere and most that change do so after something that were said, stuck with them in the back of their head.
For the last two, those are techniqalities..
everyone that is born is born an atheist in the extent that concepts like god require the capability to understand and retain concepts, babies as you might be aware lack object permanence and as such can't comprehend any concepts. That most atheist are rational and honest, it's how they made it out of theism. They started to think more about what they believed, why they believed(in particular) and how they were rationalising it, then by being honest about it, about themselves, they concluded that they no longer believed in what they used to believe.
These statements aren't really used as arguments, two of them work as arguments in an technical fashion and you worded them weirdly. And out of context anything can come off as a poor argument, especially when you start arguing technicalities.
@@guytheincognito4186 hes only listing what the guys says in the video he dint made these statements
@@seilaessecanalnvaitervideo6414
Cool but i'll leave my reply up as to make sure there are no misconceptions though. 👍
@@seilaessecanalnvaitervideo6414 he literally just explained the context my guy
I won't say atheist are rationale I see lot aggressive Atheist. Before someone attacked me let me make it clear I know not all Atheist are like that.
You are one of the more humble and reasonable atheists on UA-cam, and I appreciate that. Oftentimes, people need to be reminded to get off their high horse and understand that, as humans, we don't know a whole lot.
I'm an atheist for many reasons. I was given the rare opportunity growing up to research belief systems to find one that fits. My parents didn't wanna raise their kids in any specific way regarding beliefs, so I wasn't aware of religion or atheism till I'd made religious friends in school. My two best friends were of different religions. One was raised Christian, the other Jewish. It was fascinating seeing the two sides. As a kid, being a Jew seemed more fun because you were guaranteed 8 gifts during their holiday. Haha. But I never set my sites on any one religion.
As I grew up, I got to see more of the negative side of religion, especially Christianity and Catholicism. Learning about multiple religions and multiple deities made me question everything. I couldn't (and still don't) understand how there can be thousands of gods and hundreds of religious practices, yet all claim they are right and the rest are wrong. Learning about Greek and Egyptian gods in elementary school kick-started that whole thought process. And, let's be honest, those gods are way more fun to read about. :P
In a nutshell, I have a very hard time grasping the idea that one deity could exist while the thousands of others can't (for some reason). I don't believe in any of them for the same reason. Though I admit it's hilarious thinking of the sky filled with thousands of gods crammed together. I've seen web comics like that and they're funny as hell.
Plus there's no evidence they exist, so there's that, too.
I will respect someone's personal beliefs as long as long as they're not trying to shove it in my face.
Very respectable position.
I can't fully relate, since where I live Christianity is taught/advertised in public schools. You can opt out, but my parents decided that would make me stand out among my peers (and they weren't too unreasonable in that conclusion) so I was taught about God as a fact of life. In my head, it feels like defualt that if any god exists, it's Jesus. So instead of just understanding from the start that the whole idea makes no sense, I had to reason out why God _doesn't_ exist. The burden of proof should be on the believers, and yet, somehow, despite knowing that, deprograming was not as simple as just acknowledging there is no proof.
It's fascinating, how influential those initial years are on our thinking about religion.
@@nataliaborys1554 oh wow, religion being taught in public schools where I live is heavily frowned upon and can get teachers fired for doing it. There are tons of private schools that are religious affiliated out here, so parents have options. My mom got my 9th grade science teacher fired because he was teaching us that god created atoms and all the things in the universe. I was uncomfortable, but not as uncomfortable as the faces of teens in the class who were clearly being raised on different faiths. It was a huge issue. Thankfully none of the kids knew it was me who essentially got him fired. But I digress.
I truly feel for people like you who have to deprogram your entire upbringing surrounding religion. I've watched a number of atheist channels where they discuss the process. I can only imagine how crushing and tough it must be. Even though I don't know what that's like specifically, I know what it's like to have to separate myself from a rough upbringing and finally disassociate from the cause.
I wish you peace on your journey. No matter what path you choose, make sure it fits your life the way you want to live it. Don't allow others to dictate it for you. Your well being is essential and should never be compromised.
@@nataliaborys1554 that’s literally illegal for public schools, you could sue
@@voidzminer1017 It depends in which country. Where I'm from, the whole _raison d'être_ of private schools is to provide religious education on top of general schooling, as it is illegal to teach any religion in a public school. I would wager that there are contries (a couple of evangelised African countries and hyper-muslim middle eastern countries spring to mind) where teaching religion in public schools is not only allowed, but recommended or even obligatory.
@@voidzminer1017 In the US, sure. Not everyone has such luck. Here it's a political debate where the ruling party wants to keep religion in schools and opposition wants to get rid of it. As I previously mentioned, attending this class is the default. You can opt out, if your parents write you a paper to the school, but still the extra effort is to get out of it, not to get in, implying it's encouraged. And this is currently standard protocol across the country.
Thanks for this. Struggling through a rough deconstruction causes me to irrationally cringe and be upset with people that are strongly religious. I needed this more than I realized.
Drew: “I’m not the Messiah!”
Comments Section: “He is the Messiah!”
😁
He’s not the messiah, he’s a very naughty boy!
@@PinupSarah I get it 😁
That's Ironic
Do I smell a brewing monty python reference here?
So to summarize: “Don’t make assumptions.”
Spicy Cat sounds like something you’d find on a Chinese food menu
Is that when making assumptions in a video about not making assumptions
I think we should make assumptions sometimes
@@user-cm6sp9iu5r I suggest being thoughtful about why you are engaging in discourse with (or about) the believers. I quit athiest online groups because the loudest voices were those who just wanted to embarrass and shame and ridicule ...no context, no compassion. Most forums exist to serve dopamine.
@@Peoples_Republic_of_Cotati I don't argue with believers, I simply don't care about what other people believe, Atheist or theist. All I said was that making assumptions isn't always a bad thing.
"always remember that our group doesn't deserve any less scrutiny just because it's ours." I think I'm going to use that one!
I'm not an atheist but I understand atheism and accept it as a valid point of view. As someone once said, if the Bible and religion are obviously wrong about where we came from then why should we trust what it says about where we're going?
As a young Christian I absolutely love this man. He treats both sides of religious and non-religious with respect, and a fair amount of criticism with being afraid to be honest and speak his mind. I hope that more people on both sides open their minds and hearts more.
@Chuck Nelson All childhood, all life is indoctrination. We are constantly abused
@Chuck Nelson I agree with you. I just don't like the word "abuse" or "child abuse" especially in these times. I believe we humans get strong mentally and physically by being exposed since young age to experiences as you described.
Person: Makes comment commending Drew for being reasonable.
Idiots in comments who apparently haven't watched Drew's video because he talks about this IN THE VIDEO itself: yOu'Re iNdOcTrInAtEd
Me: I'm an Atheist.
Me Playing Board games: The Dice Gods hate me.
Me having seen your comment: Damn, belief in Dice Gods...I'm no Atheist!
@@tseeker5578 I mostly agree with your position here and in this situation you are right to criticise the generalisations the other person is making. However, discrediting the word 'abuse' and the phrase 'child abuse' and then saying that these experiences make us mentally and physically strong is patently wrong. People who go through traumatic and extremely psychologically and physically damaging experiences in their youth or at any point in their life, don't come out of it with a net positive experience, it doesn't give them grit generally, and doesn't make them more 'tough', it does what it says on the tin, it leaves them psychologically and physically damaged.
I'm a Christian and I enjoy the intellectual integrity of your presentation. I think a lot of the believers I know would appreciate your perspective.
average Chad^
Solomon: based
same
Based
His entire channel's purpose is to have reasonable discourse between them.
Anyone lashing out at a thoughtful call for kind and reasoned discourse, is continuing the pattern of a toxic culture. We need more of this here. Thank you for your work 💮
a reasoned discourse with... the unreasonable. yeah right.
All these are things I said myself at one point when I was going through my "angry atheist" phase and all it did was push people away instead of facilitating honest conversation which should always be the ultimate goal. We shouldn't be trying to "win" people to atheism but instead, having honest, intellectual conversation about the views each of us hold and why we hold them. We should be open to hearing other people's reasons for their belief and want to be proven wrong so that we can continually learn about ourselves and others. This was a great video.
I cringe because I did the exact same. Came to realize it was because I felt anger towards my former Christian self and was projecting that on everyone.
As an atheist and D&D player, I recognize my superstition around dice is not rational 🤣
I still threaten my electronics daily and verbally abuse them, despite knowing that instilling the fear of Owner into them is not a viable solution. It makes me feel better that I'm in fake-control.
@John Doe Tell that to my PS2 sometimes not reading a disc thrice and then deciding that no it's fine it'll read it on the fourth, or Windows 10 upgrading and making things weird before I track down the fix.
@John Doe Now that's a point I can concede to. I always forget it's more profitable to opt for planned obsolescence and components that break juuuuust after warranty expires.
lol
@John Doe Nah, you sound like a leftist now. You're also sadly correct.
"Our group doesn't deserve any less scrutiny just because it's ours"
I read your comment exactly when he was saying that. It felt like subtitles.
@Bloviator Magnus As I Catholic, I agree. It's very exhausting to see people (whether in your group or mine), who think they are superior just because they are a part of that group.
@@patrickmcnamara7143 Absolutely. I am also a Catholic (no practising but that is another story).
I have read the bible cover to cover. I don't believe everything written in there - most of it is metaphoric, designed to explain what is right and what is wrong - not a scientific explanation of physicality.
As a scientifically minded person myself, I see the facts in science, respect them and try my best to understand them... That being said, science does not and can not explain God. Science is the study of the facts of this existence (universe/dimension/what-have-you.) Science does not explain anything outside of our experience. It cannot explain something that does not have concrete evidence. however, concrete evidence in this universe does not mean concrete evidence throughout the multiverse or higher dimensions. There are dimensions where our understanding of physics breaks down.....just look at anything quantum and try to rationalise it on a universal scale......we haven't gotten there yet, but we will.
Take dark matter for example. Here is something we can not see, feel, touch or taste. Yet science insists exists. How are we not to know that this could be gravitational 'bleed over' from another dimension/universe? Inconsistences in the density of space time related to the expansion of the the universe?
Does this mean that God or a god doesn't exist? absolutely not. One thing we know for sure, is that the universe was CREATED.
@Aristotle Stagirus Yep, you make some good points - all is on the cards.
' the God of Abraham is perhaps the most evil being ever written about in human history.' - because 'love one another' is a evil concept or hard to understand???
@Aristotle Stagirus
You do realize that the part you quoted is not biblical right?
Christian pastor & a former atheist here... I appreciate your take. I appreciate the humility. I may disagree with where you've landed, but I can tell you're the sort of person I'd enjoy sitting down & talking with about important things, & that goes a long way.
Oof.... guilty of 3 of the 4. Going to have to reconsider. Thanks for shining the bright light of rationality back on ourselves.
"When I wrote it (the Satanic bible), I never imagined anyone would take it seriously."--Anton Szandor La Vey
RollingThunder69 If the writer of the Bible was here he would pretty much say the same.
RollingThunder69 I will likely bet that the guy who wrote the Bible was some retard troll
Do a little research and the original "intent", what ever that might be, is usually the first thing to be forgotten.
@@w1z4rd9 The Bible was written by many authors over hundreds of years, with the second part, the 'New Testiment', coming several hundred years after the last book in the old Testament and being written in the span of a few decades. You can Google the authors and time period
@@camuor3645 I know the old testament and the new testament bro since I was raised as a Christian that became agnostic hehe. But the thing is that when I said writer I think everyone with the intellectual capacity of a human could understand what I meant even with the grammatical errors.
I’m a theist who found this video. Love the arguments and how your presented them, well. You got my sub
Ej Green sake for me, I’m a theist Catholic and while I don’t see eye to eye with him on the big topic, I agree with him 100% on being skeptical.
@@joshuadunford3171 yeah,I'm a Christian and i get him.i accept what he says.
Couldn't agree more. I'll fully admit, I wasn't reasoned into my Christian belief, I merely followed my parents. However, it was reason that brought me deeper into my faith.
@@mastertrams me too. I thought about it, cried, prayed and the world looked new.
@@mastertrams I have the exact same story. I was raised by my mum, my mum and dad are divorced. My mum is a Christian, my dad is a Muslim. So I wasn't reasoned in, but after backsliding. I reasoned, and here I am, a true Christian
Wow! A polite, nuanced and humble video about a controversial subject. Maybe UA-cam isn't all entertainment and tribal chest beating.
Thanks for all your hard work, Drew.
Just found your videos and I really like what I hear from you. When I first declared my atheism (also in the south, so you know how hard that can be), I was so excited to find others I could meet with and discuss. I found a local atheist group and went to one meeting and was so disappointed. Those people were freaking insufferable and definitely didn't speak for me. It's so important to call out the intolerable and straight up wrong atheists. They speak loudly and people start to think they represent all of us.
Remember that your goal when arguing shouldn’t be to prove someone right or wrong. Your Goal should be to both arrive at the correct answer.
sadly the goal sometimes seems to be to reveal the other person as an idiot.
Wouldn’t a more proper term for that be “discourse?”
@@beta511ee4 Used correctly, they're synonymous. In philosophy, specifically Formalized Logic, argument is a technical term meaning "a sequence of logical patterns intended to demonstrate that a specific conclusion is a consequence of a specific set of premises." In other words, when two people present arguments, they are having discourse.
@Brazilian Goddess I’m not saying other methods don’t work, I’m just saying this is the most effective one. It’s hard to win an argument if the other person feels ignored.
However, if you have other methods that you think work better, I would love to hear them.
@Brazilian Goddess So my argument doesn’t work for manipulation and propaganda. I’m fine with that. My method of arguing is for honest people then.
I'm neither Atheist nor Christian. So I appreciate you acknowledging that other religions can be involved, as most arguments of this nature usually devolve into Christianity = religion as a whole. It's frustrating when that happens, so thank you!
As a Bacchanalian Gnostic, I find that frustrating too.
@@archiesimpson5172 you sound fun
@@archiesimpson5172 Hey! I'm a High Dianic! Let's have fun on the mountainside.
yesss as a pagan it's so fucking annoying i have no idea where to stand in religious debates bc it's basically christians and sometimes muslims and jews vs athiests and no other religions are discussed.
Agnostic?
It takes great intellectual fortitude to accept criticism and work on yourself. I have to admit that i held some of these views and from this video ( and previous ones in this series), i was able to see why i was wrong, not just being told i'm wrong. Keep up the good work!
Thank you, Drew, as a skepic, myself, you caught me red handed with a few of these, though I consider myself an applied mythologist-enjoying the "fairy tales" of all world mythologies, I do probably come down harder on the judeo Christian theists because those are the ones I've had the most negative exposure to, it's not that I haven't looked into Norse , Greek, Roman, Egyptian, superman, and native American mythologies(because I have) but, I've never been threatened with eternal damnation by followers of any of those, so, in my personal experience, American Christianity is especially malignant. I'm trying to be less abrasive about how I express myself on the topic though, and this video is very insightful. So, thanks again.
I wanted to join the illusive "cult of the Superman" I just can't seem to find their meeting place.
MORMONISM
aw, meet them wherever they are. if they're abrasive, be 100x more abrasive. if they're kind, kindly tell them you're not interested and walk away.
As a Christian, I really appreciate the points mentioned in this video. I have seen, from the other side, many things that Christians say that make me cringe. Here are a few things that I believe Christians should stop saying (atheists, please feel free to share/add to the list):
1) "Deep down you KNOW God exists"
2) Pascal's wager
3) "The fool says in his heart 'There is no God'"
4) "You can't prove God does NOT exist" (when used as an argument for believing in God or trying to frame the atheist as having a weak belief)
exactly when one of my friends tried to convert me, she insisted that i had some sort of proof that he didn't exist and wanted it
like i dont know if he exists or not, nor do i really care, i just dont believe in him
The fool says the big bang is impossible because nothing can be created without something to create it right? Who created God keep going farther and farther eventually someone wasn't created by another person meaning a "god" was created by absolutely nothing. Yall act high and mighty but have no proof also why would you want to follow a "god" who allows such terrible things to happen to humans? If we truly had freedom of choice then how do proficies happen they have to follow a strict path for them to happen meaning point a to point b if they are true that means humans do not have freedom and are forced to do everything according to his plan meaning every person who is raped killed or abused god forced those people to do such terrible things to others. Also that means he forced Adam and eve to bite the apple damning humanity. Just sounds insane.
I personally love Pascal's wager. Because even as an agnostic I have to have a contingency plan for that.
So what if when I die it turns out I was wrong. The God of the Bible does exist? I made up my mind, If the God of the old testament does exist then he's allowing his people to do horrible things to others to others. Things I find immoral. Why should an LGBTQIA child be cast out by their family? How is that moral? Why should non believers be chastised, despised? How is that moral? Why is there such animosity between Jews, Christians and Muslims? Are they not all children of God? I refuse to worship a God like this even if he does exist. I owe it to all the good people burning in hell. I owe it to all the good people who had their one life here on earth snatched away from them over beliefs.
If my refusal of him, if my condemnation of myself can make a being like this know suffering in any capacity then I owe it to the majority of human beings who have ever lived and died to give up my eternity to this cause.
@@shenone3285 You raise some good questions, and if indeed the God of the Bible is as you describe, I would agree you have nothing to lose. However, I would also argue that there are no "good" people in Hell; in fact, the people who go to Heaven are not even "good". I also encourage you to think for a moment why Hell is bad. Is it not precisely because it is a Godless place? In other words, it is a place completely separate from the source of all that is good, and therefore, nothing good is found in Hell, only bad.
Imagine a parent who provides shelter, food, clothing, and other things that a child enjoys. The parent warns the child not to go out on his own, but the child insists that he wants to abandon his relationship with his parents and live out in the streets. The parents respect his decision, and upon entering into the streets alone, the child finds that he now no longer has food, shelter, clothing, and all that he considered "good". Would it be fair at this point to blame the parents?
I think the main issue here is that people want to enjoy "good" things without God "interfering" with their lives, failing to realize that the only reason they have those "good" things is because of God's grace and provision. When they choose to rebel against God and have nothing to do with Him, they are choosing a destination without any possibility of good things. What have they to complain about then? Are they not fully accountable for their own decision? After all, I don't think God could've made it any easier to accept His free gift of grace while still allowing us to maintain free will.
@@scrub8363 I am a walking contradiction to your analogy. As an atheist I enjoy the very same life I did as a christian, I just don't pray, believe or go to church. As for the good in my life, I have a wonderful husband of 16 yrs who is also an atheist. We live in a lovely home and we are not "wanting" for creature comforts which affords me the ability to do charity work. The premise that only religious people have meaning behind their actions is part of the same premise the video is expounding upon.
If you believe, great. Glad it works for you, as for me... not my cup of tea. Instead, I became a member of St. Mattresses, I go to services every night for 8 hours and on Sundays I am allowed to sleep in for services.
As for the something from nothing argument... I am really interested in the new theoryof white holes. We learn something new every day, I can't wait to see what the James Webb Telescope reveals!!
Best Wishes.
My personal stance is “Be respectful to your fellow human beings and mind your own business.”
That seems to be his general stance too.
That is something religious people are incapable of
@Brazilian Goddess that's fair. But if someone else's rights are imposed on?
@@catcollector719 I mind my own business unless someone says to me as non sensical as "Religion is responsible for all the evil in the world, and we should do away with it so that we can live in peace and harmony."
Religion is not the problem. How it is applied in some cases is.
What happens when other people's buisness impact your personal life (the birth of neoliberalism from religious thinking that is now completely invalidate any chances of the lower classes to raise above a certain level)? What happens when other people's beliefs contradict the respect they owe you (the whole gender problem with the strong binary belief and "you can't force my mind to change" argument against the easiest show of respect ever as to just don't misgender someone when they ask you not to)? It's easy to mind one own buisness when you're not impacted by others sometimes toxic buisnesses and closemindedness (or when you don't realise how you have been impacted negatively by other's believes)
This video was great, I’ve never used any of these phrases, but it definitely pointed out some of my biases I didn’t even think about
As a former Christian myself, and a staunch advocate for religion, I appreciate your tone, and the specifics of the message.
"I'm not your Prophet"
...
ONLY A TRUE MESSIAH WOULD DENY HIS OWN DIVINITY!!
❤️
Those are my juniper bushes! I was saving those!
Well, what sort of chance does that give him?!
HE’S THE MESSIAH!
sounds like Buddha
As a (somewhat unconventional) Christian, I just want to say “thank you” for your nuance, balance and intellectual integrity in making content like this. May we all continue seeking the truth with humility and compassion for our fellow travelers.
Unconventional in which way?
Elijah Gavin Mostly to do with the fact that I embrace the “darkness” of God, acknowledging Him as the source of all good AND all evil. Also I’m big on niche scholarship like that of Dr. Michael Heiser.
Jon Hartling fair enough. After all, many Christians like to claim that God is all good and light and love, yet the Good Book has several instances where God exhibits what could only be deemed as violence, vengeance, or even punitive evil
@@ChineduOpara You're going to, what, murder people for their beliefs preemptively? Round up all the people who want to talk to you about Jesus on the bus into death camps? You're no better than them with that kind of rhetoric. You're disgusting.
@Chuck
Some people are Christians out of spirituality. That doesn't give you the right to call them stupid and deluded. The same could be safe of atheist, as we shy away from one of the biggest pedestals of humanity, of civilisation. Religion.
We are allowed our opinions and beliefs, and as long we dont hurt anyone with them, there is nothing wrong with it.
STOP THINKING YOU CAN BE DICKS TO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.
Insightful and well thought out content. The reasoning in this video has applications beyond conversations about religion. I think it important to always think your words through and discern what value they will contribute to a conversation. This is especially true to any sensitive topic. Keep up the great writing Drew!
Dear Drew, As a fellow who spent most of his adult life as an atheist, then became an agnostic, and finally returned to his religious faith, I could relate to your well though out words from both sides of the religious divide. There were times when I felt irritated by people of faith, and thought they were hard-headed and irrational. There were a few times when this made me say unkind things. In my earlier life my atheist friend said some words like that to me. Now, in my 70's, I have come full circle and am really impressed by your humility, thoughtfulness and honesty. I believe I detect a great deal of self reflection. You are also blessed with an ability to clearly express yourself. I regard all those sayings as insulting and your understanding of what they imply is, I think, correct. There is much wisdom and personal blessings from not judging others. Thank you for your most stimulating talk. Richard
I had someone tell me their baby was a republican and they were totally serious.
Same with religious people Baptism for babies who don't have a choice in what religion to choose. Wow now your baby is on a list with said religion and is a catholic. Children are raised to be whatever their parents raise them to be. Your born in a republican house high chance you'll be a republican.
I somewhat recently as an adult had my mother tell me that I was a very conservative person (This is New Zealand, so conservative means quite a different thing than the US). She was unable to explain why she thought that.
The only reason I could think of for why was that she's fairly conservative, and just literally couldn't comprehend that someone she likes could think differently.
Sounds accurate, considering political parties in the US are very cult-like nowadays. The baby was already indoctrinated.
@@SimonBuchanNz I'm now curious on what it means where you are! Could you tell me pls
@@Anonymous-kp3jf basically our conservative party equivalent is roughly in the same ballpark as USAs Democrats on a broad left-right spectrum, but don't expect policies to line up much. Here's their platform summary from their website:
"National will take New Zealand forward when it comes to the things that matter to New Zealanders, like fixing the cost-of-living crisis, building a strong economy, making your community safer, and improving core services like health and education."
Compare with our current party, Labour:
"We’re securing New Zealand’s future, building on our strong economy while making real progress on long term issues like housing, child poverty and climate change."
I expect you kind of have to squint to tell them apart from an American perspective!
This is one reason I enjoy your content. Sometimes you don't realize how what you say may sound to who you're talking to. Videos like this are especially useful to me because I have never believed in a god so I don't have a very good perspective on what those who do believe may think of my comments. What sounds perfectly reasonable to me may make me soumd like an asshole which doesn't make for a good conversation. Thank you for pointing out things like this, it helps with refining the way I present my arguments.
Never believed in a god? Woah
@@erenaygun9696 I never did either really, despite being a Christian for a long time due to familial obligation. It happens more often than you think
@@erenaygun9696 I can't say I have, either, which led to crisis in my teens. I was raised a catholic and believed in a god in the same way that I was raised to open doors for women and believe that rugby was exclusively a men's sport. But by the age of 13, I declined to be confirmed, although I desperately wanted to be, because I had become deeply skeptical. My crisis was precisely that I didn't believe in a god, despite wanting to and having believed that I did.
Hey, if you want to understand how believers think, i know a series that explains a few things here (the first 3 videos aren't voiced, but the rest is) : ua-cam.com/video/n1A9vrsw6Hw/v-deo.html
With your name, i think you'll like it :)
I have said things to people that I didn't mean to be bad but I'm sure they took it differently than I meant.
Your comment about whether atheists are more rational or reasonable reminded me of my friend. They had turned away from the ideology of their religion, but still had the reflex to believe in things with no evidence (or things with evidence to contrary). For example, they are an ardent Moon landing denier, believe in ghosts and claim to have had demon encounters.
What a thoughtful and kind opening, would be nice if everyone could be like this, not only when talking to people on there own “side”, but also when talking to the other “side”
*several r/atheism users are typing*
Mr Asray
I can feel them...
The scent of cheese dust...
The loud breathing on my neck...
The dripping gunk of Mountain Dew...
*Shudders*
Domonoasis World their coming the NAZGULD ARE COMING
That reddit page needs to get a clue.
Bunch of egotistical morons.
Can attest. I’m not a fan of that sub.
Lol get the popcorn
"I'm not your prophet"
Then why do you tell us to like you and follow you huh?
/s
You're really dumb
@@sumaya5213 ??????
I think there's a difference between following someone on UA-cam and personally following them. Otherwise, I'd be part of the *Cult of the Nostalgia Critic.*
@@neorenamon it's a joke.....
@@neorenamon how can you be so dumb??
Thanks Drew, it great to listen to a UA-cam video that I don't have to speed up to enjoy.
I never really thought of Atheists being a "group". We only have one tiny thing in common.
As a Christian, I am VERY appreciative of how respectful you are to all sides of this discussion while not varying from the evidence. Thank you for being an upstanding person and for teaching us well
Your religion is a cancer, go away.
@@TheRealCatofthat is an incredibly unhelpful and shitty comment. Personally I would prefer if you would go away. That kinda crap us exactly what this video is speaking out against
@@TheRealCatof bait username, bait comment, you're begging for attention almost as much as trump does lol
@@TheRealCatof
Actually, people like you are the cancer here, not to mention also your username lmao
@@TheRealCatof wow I'm atheist and that was wholly unnecessary
Most people are just trying to live their lives in the best way they can, based on the information they have and how they interpret that information.
No problem, as long as their works are not motivated by hatred of "the other". Unfortunately, I see a *lot* of hatred coming from the religious right. My belief? "An it harm none, do what thou wilt".
@@annalieff-saxby568 tribal thinking is unfortunately ingrained into humans on a genetically level. It is something that a human has to overcome to form a better society, not something they learn from religion.
Religions had historically even that exact purpose; to allow humans to evolve their society from groups with a maximum of ~110 members to bigger groups that still could work together effectively.
That does of course not save Religion or any other Thing from utilizing the "They vs. Us" narrative that resonates with tribal thinking.
I love this channel and especially this video. I’m an ex-Christian and have held onto a kind of spite towards theism for a while now (edgy atheism). Looking back on it I’m embarrassed by my thinking before. Finding this channel has helped me rethink this view. I still have some more toxic attitudes towards certain viewpoints, and I certainly hope to improve in the future. This environment really helps. Thank you for helping to build it.
@Michael Lochlann I get that. Not trying to say you should like people’s opinions and beliefs. But for me having a bad attitude tends to make me more dismissive. It’s important to understand others’ opinions if you want to engage with them. Disdain was getting in the way for me, and still does sometimes.
Hi, I'm the fourth probably generation of atheists, and i have some advice for you. Find out about truth criteria phylosophy and knowledge phylosophy, it will change everything you've ever known about science and religion and how to work with any information.
As for negative attitudes - well, they happen in places where the main religion is pretty toxic. Used as an oppression and discrimination organ of an authoritarian state, imposing dangerous bans or acting as a political force itself.
@@annasolovyeva1013 Thanks for the advice! I'll have to look into those. And since writing this I think that I have justified reasons for some of my opinions and outrage (you hit the nail on the head about how authoritarian religion can be). That being said, I've been working on trying to control this kind of emotion when interacting with people of opposing view points. It's harder to get through to people when I'm pissed, cuz I just end up pissing them off.
Whether we're theists, atheists or agnostics, I think the most important thing is that we are good human beings who treat each other right no matter how many differences there are between us, because at the end of the day, putting religion ( or lack thereof) and culture aside, we are all humans.
now apply this to pedophilia or nazism
There is unfortunately a large number of atheists who will automatically assume you're religious (or even go straight to assuming you're a Christian) if you question their bad arguments.
So true
True
Never seen this.
I am agnostic and on one video of youtube, I made a theory about reincarnation even though I don't know if it exists, and then this atheist straight up commented that I need to shut up and stop believing in an "outdated book".
@@lancomepotatoes5753 Shut the fuck up.
Thank you for making this video, Drew. Unfortunately, the people who react poorly to videos like this are likely those who need to hear the criticism the most... but aren't willing to listen. Rather than addressing their cognitive dissonance, and being self-aware enough to see where they need to change, they lash out, or shut your voice out (by unsubscribing).
Humans will be humans, I guess. The best each of us can do is try to be self-aware enough not to fall into this trap.
The negativity is already starting and this comment is very encouraging. Thank you! 😊
@@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic Aw, I'm sorry and disappointed to hear that, but also glad my comment could help.
Genetically Modified Skeptic bruh your name is drew that’s gay
@Nota 4 Drew Durnil reference?
Erik Walker I didn’t say homo
I appreciate your fairness and honesty [refreshing!] and your clear dedication to the independent investigation of truth.
As an agnostic, I feel any approach that begins with telling someone they're stupid and illogical, christian to an athiest or athiest to a christian, already insults the person. It doesn't leave any space to learn or listen. I'm not open to listening to anyone who approaches me like that about anything.
I had joined a Meetup group for atheists years ago that I quickly left. It was full of smug people constantly pointing out how much better they were than the uneducated believers of magic. I couldn't think of worse ambassadors for atheism. Keep questioning everything and remember no one really knows what the hell is going on.
@Erik Buchanan
I'm sorry, but I read the second sentence, and was like:"WTF? O_O" Granted, as a Christian myself, I've come across such smug atheists on the net. Yet, for you to encounter such people is shocking.
Also yeah questioning everything is a wise policy. It's what's caused me to discard many of the dogmatic shackles placed on me by practitioners of Christianity. Though sadly I've re-donned these shackles out of fear of how I'd be percieved by my parents and others, and not God.
It's sad when one is more scared of the that which is finite, as opposed to the infinite. -_-
It's hard to avoid being smug in the face of beliefs such as the story of Easter being no more plausible than the story of the Easter Bunny.
It's always the little implications they have.
"If you thought about it more..."
"Society would be so much more advanced if...."
"Religious people can't be rational!"
"Adjusting the likelihoods, I am more likely to be correct."
More often than not they just straight up call you stupid though. It might be some weird routing of the brain, but whenever people get skeptical about something, they get an intelligence complex about a fact they don't actually know. It would be significantly easier to accept that we don't know anything. It's all just belief, and everyone has different beliefs.
I don't think anyone religious even thinks about magic. Just some whatever stuff they think will do something to their lives, or actually more like their deaths though.
I'm gonna disagree with your claim that "belief in god is inherent to human psychology" this is false. There are tribes that have no concept of a god and what is "inherent"(very poor and muddled wording) is the tendency to see patterns where they dont exist and other biases that MIGHT translate to a god. This is what apologists claim to say god implanted this In humans. If a child grows up with no religious upbringing they wont be religous magically. They might be superstitious and seek patterns etc. But not necessarily any religion. religion is taught.
There is not a single existing culture that doesn't have some sorts of Gods, spirits or higher powers they obey. Even the inhabitants of Sentinel Island which is the most isolated tribe on Earth have been seen to participate in rituals where they honor spirits of deceased, pray etc.
I mean if belief in God wasn't inherent to human psychology we probably wouldn't have 6200 religions from all continents, races and cultures around the world. If you were to make the entire world atheist today, tomorrow most people would return to religion.
@@wendigo017 gunna need a citation for the sentinelese since no one is allowed near the island because they're incredibly aggressive.
Maybe not with a single child, but over time almost every culture in human history has developed some sort of religion.
@@wendigo017 this is only true if you extent “god“ to a very wide degree. If you of course claim, that ancestral spirits, ghosts, animal spirits, nature spirits etc. are basically gods, then you are right.
But one can easily make a point, that ancestral worship is very different from god worship.
Also your assumption that the Sentinelese people are the most isolated people is not true. There are several uncontacted tribes in South America, while the Sentinalese people are isolated today, because a violent past with foreigners coming to their island made them very hostile, but the even had contact with christianity. To which extend this influenced their religion is not known though.
@@cleanerben9636 You have some helicopter footage of rituals on the internet I think, plus some of the Indian visitors witnessed them and lived to tell a tale
The phrase “you can’t be reasoned out of a position that you weren’t reasoned into” is something that I’d never even thought of as an attack on religious people. I think that it is a true statement within certain contexts, but mainly it refers to people who choose a position first and work backwards to justify it, rather than deriving a position from evidence. This doesn’t refer to any specific belief, which is why you’re correct to point out its illegitimacy as a blanket statement about religious people.
It can also be true about strong emotions. For example, if I’m having strong anxiety, usually no amount of just reasoning that things are fine will help, because there sometimes wasn’t any rational reason that I became anxious. It’s just a feeling that needs to be addressed as an emotion.
8:56 10:39 Thank you so much! It's so hard having an honest discussion when coming to the table you're automatically discounted and mocked for your beliefs.
Good thoughts as usual, Drew. I'm most impressed by your sense of balance and fairness, even when playing Devil's advocate. I like your final point about atheists needing to not assume we are necessarily INHERENTLY more honest or should get a philosophical pass JUST for being atheist. In fact, I would argue that we need to hold ourselves to as high a logical and philosophical standard as we can to show that come by our lack of belief honestly, not just as another form of tribalism.
Amen to that 😉
The biggest problem I have seen from the online atheist community over the last couple years is the lack of logic and reason while claiming to be using it exclusively. There are so many stances that many prominent atheists take that are not grounded in logic, reason, or science. They are purely emotion based. That is a huge problem when you constantly claim to not be moved by emotion and only look at logic and reason.
We all use emotion to some extent in our beliefs. It's important to be able to look inward and question ourselves to determine if our beliefs are based on emotion or fact. Unfortunately the mob mentality and cancel culture has come to dominate the Atheist community instead of logic, reason, and science. I have largely abandoned many of the channels I used to enjoy because of this.
@@Karamarika Awesome points, well delivered. I am a Christian and delved a little bit into atheist forums. I was amazed. I could predict that within about 4 exchanges, I would be called names and/or cursed at. I just wanted a logical discussion, but I challenged (politely) their logic, they became hostile, insulting, illogical. So disappointing, I had no idea it was this bad. The irony, then, that they think they are the gatekeepers of reason and paragons of logic. Just amazing. Were I an atheist, I would wonder if this is a group I want to affiliate with, or become a member of their club. So consistent was their rage and hypocrisy that I couldn't tell most of them apart; they were all inter-changeable and indistinguishable from each other. Christians can be bad too, but not this bad.With Christians, it takes about 8 exchanges before they start insulting you.
@@aaronstypes4083 " I just wanted a logical discussion, but I challenged (politely) their logic," - give us a link to that forum/thread, let us judge that ;-)
@@przemysawkulak4275 Oh, my goodness. . . You really prove my point. You people are so defensive and combative that it seems you will deny every word I say, just because I am a Christian. Its so bad that if I say one plus one equals two, you will probably deny it.
@@aaronstypes4083 "You really prove my point" - no, all you prove so far that you failed in reasoning and logic. And you started to be hostail AFTER FIRST AND VERY POLITE message from me. And you started making very unpolite assumptions about me (and all atheists as general). Just because I wanted to see that (as you said - polite from you) conversation. Now I am starting to think that you are not a honest person, and you cannot talk pollite and with use of logic... LOL
This has made me realize that I may have lapsed in my manners of late.
@John Doe yes, I have read my bible. And multiple times. And different versions. Which is a very strong reason I do not believe.
@John Doe yea I agree many religious people just make assumptions
Your videos remind me of a chance encounter on a train of the (in)famous agnostic Robert Ingersoll had with the devout Lew Wallace (author of Ben Hur). Neither convinced the other, but each listened and had a great discussion that I wish had been documented, or I had been there to hear.
I appreciate your attitude toward civility of dialogue. Like you, I was raised in fundamentalist Christian upbringing, including healing and glossolalia, the whole nine yards. It's a temptation to recoil strongly and bitterly after that, and perhaps I first did when as a 15-year-old I realized I couldn't get behind those beliefs. My background probably helped me to be even more certain of my atheism, as the more knowledge you have, the more fuel for your mind.
Gradually, though, I became embarrassed by fellow atheists who slam believers as stupid, it puts them on the same level as athiest-bashers. It's no way to persuade, as humans are extremely defensive when their intellect is questioned. I've had many discussions with friends who are religious and quite intelligent, and still have kept most of them as friends, and learned a lot about apologetics and their arguments, but also the arcane corners of their beliefs that most go-to-church-on-Sunday believers never know. Everyone should work this out for themselves.
Madilyn Murray O'Hair did a great disservice, IMO, to push the stereotype of the angry atheist, and might have gotten further for her cause with a little more persuasion than her passion. I am old enough to have been a budding atheist during her heyday in Austin, sneaking into the library and reading American Atheist magazine and books by Ingersoll there. I couldn't check those out and bring those home, you know, without a possible interventionist exorcism to cast out those demons. Saw that happen too many times to walk into that trap.
See a lot of you (pardon the assumption) cishet atheists don't seem to get that a lot of us don't want to argue with Christians I personally don't want to change a Christian mind I want to hurt them as much as possible I don't want dialog with an enemy that has attempted to personally hurt me repeatedly
As a Christian I wholeheartedly stand with you with the sentiment that we need honest dialogue rooted in the desire for truth with the disposition of humility.
In other words, I would buy you a drink and hear your story.
I know I may come off as someone you wouldn't buy a drink for; that said, I think there's good reason for criticizing Christianity. I'm not even athiest, but there is something very wrong with Christianity.
Have you been severely burned? Have you left your hand in the flames for a prolonged period?
Imagine your worst enemies going through that? Forever?
If one can spend eternity happy while that happens to their enemies, then such person isn't even following what Jesus said in Matthew 5: 44
Since real love negates such a callous mindset.
PS, It isn't AT ALL like Prison as some suggest.
I understand that some people may have to be kept out of society for the safety of public, but there's something very horrible about burning people!
I did used to be a Christian & I'm calling out this nightmare doctrine.
PSS I am well aware of the gospel but salvation for some doesn't fix the problem I mentioned above.
It's not even like people could choose to believe the bible.
@@TruthSpeaker. Yeah, believing you shall live in paradise, and those who disagree burn i hell, sounds like a con... Russia says we in the west will be condemned to hell, while they have God on their side in the war they started. Makes perfect sense if you are cemented from the neck and up.
I greatly appreciate your empathy for religious people. Watching your videos has helped me work through my anger towards my religious upbringing. It’s still a struggle, but I’m getting there.
Oddly I have had the opposite experience I had a relatively benign if boring religious upbringing but am now convinced that Christians are inherently evil because their religion is opposed to my existence. My anger has only grown, and I see no valid reason to let it go, not being angry doesn't mean that you're better
@@Kai_221 it encourages false, dangerous, and unsubstantiated beliefs, it also results in trauma for lgbtq people, women, and men who do not conform to socially mandated gender roles.
I'm not sure that humans have a tendency toward "god belief" so much as we have a tendency toward "agency belief", something other mammals also have. Turning that agency belief into god belief is probably uniquely human but that appears to stem from our more developed cultures.
@Kenneth Bachman That is a good clarification of what I was trying to say, that the deity thing is cultural. It was easy to cultivate god beliefs because of our evolved agency traits. By more advanced cultures I meant the cultures that developed as we domesticated plants and animals and were domesticated by them as well, as groups enlarged and settled. The more direct agency beliefs of our hunter-gatherer days became crude deity beliefs in that time, probably 50,000 to 20,000 years ago. But we are, as you say, not god believers by nature.
@@letstrytouserealscienceoka3564 Your name threw off so much, because Kenneth's quote didn't properly highlight your name, and I thought he was insulting you for a moment by saying "Let's try to use real science, okay?" to imply that you were making stuff up.
What is the distinction between "god belief" and "agency belief" and how much does that distinction matter for these purposes?
@Kenneth Bachman The thing about "natural tendency" is that that doesn't end at birth. Human biological development as shaped by our DNA begins at conception and isn't finished until our 20s. Babies are born not believing in gods but babies are also born with no hair or teeth and limited ability to perceive, understand and interact with the world around them. That changes, not just because they learn, but also because their bodies and brains are physically growing and developing.
When talking about human natural tendency, I think it's reasonable to interpret that as referring to our entire inbuilt 'growth plan', not just what we have at birth. I think we'd all agree that humans have a natural tendency to grow teeth and hair. So the question becomes: Is there something about that 'growth plan' that inclines us to believe in deities?
To me it seems pretty likely that there is. Humans clearly have a natural tendency for fitting into social hierarchies, seeking and matching patterns whether they exist or not (eg. seeing shapes in the clouds, or seeing a power point as a face). It doesn't seem a stretch that those two put together have us seeing order in the universe whether it exists or not and seeing it in terms of a social hierarchy with an unseen person at the unseen top.
@Kenneth Bachman I'm not arguing that a god exists. I find it very unlikely one does (and if one does I'm certain it's not the Biblical one and I don't believe there's a divine plan). I'm arguing that human beings have a biological tendency to *feel* like there's some sort of god. Evolution is a "whatever works" kinda deal and we're full of all sorts of "good enough" features. Many of those have side-effects that are odd, but not a sufficient detriment for natural selection to remove them. A classic example is that we have a blind spot in each eye where the optic nerve passes through the optic disc and, rather than moving the optic nerve so we could have full vision, we just evolved brains that don't see the blind spot anymore. :)
Humans evolved an ability to find patterns because that helped us survive and humans evolved a respect for social hierarchy because that helped us survive. The side effect of those two put together is that we're inclined to expect to find a higher authority in the world around us. This is a *massive* oversimplification of human neurology, incidentally, but you get the idea.
BTW, the common Christian answer to your point would be that criminality and immorality weren't inherent in humanity but that we got them as a result of the fall when we chose to defy God and go our own sinful way. And that we had to have the option to choose the bad path or we would not genuinely have had free will, and without genuine free will we would be unable to genuinely choose to follow God. At that point the argument breaks down into the distinction between immorality vs the capacity to choose immorality and if you want to have that discussion you'll have to find an actual Christian. :)
I think that what many people (mostly theists) see as an innate god belief is really nothing more than our evolved overactive agency detector. Those of us who have never produced anything like a god in our minds still have this feature, we just don't take the leap of faith to call it a god belief, because that is not what it is. The agency detector rather naturally morphed into first the notion that there were "spirits" in everything from rocks to trees to ourselves and as we became more "civilized" into more sophisticated polytheistic beliefs. The monotheistic beliefs appear to me to be more closely related to politics than they might be to biology, developed by organized religions to pare down the number of people who could possibly have a direct connection to the single godhead. Of course, along came Christianity and reinstituted polytheism while refusing to admit that they had done so, with their Three Musketeers of a god..
You are such a compassionate ,empathetic young man .As a retired senior ,I willing to learn more from you.❤
Thank you for covering this, I grew up a Christian, then I became an Agnostic and now I am a theist leaning to Christianity the way I interpret the Gospels. All I know is that the forums and the old yahoo chats and forums and questions, were filled with atheists who would use words such as science, anthropology, logic, reasoning, etc. Those are very important words which have a great impact in our modern lives and reaching conclusions when having a debate or conversation. After 15 years I realize that some atheists are illogical people who do not understand basic science and how it really works and I have been gaslighted all my life.
Example is psychic abilities. I have an experience which I will not go into detail (no more to attract atheistic trolls anymore in my life), which can only be explained by mind abilities.
Fact: USA police officially uses psychics and they claim they will continue to use them indefinitely. Same with UK police.
Some psychics have been through tests from professional physicists which they hold an actual Phd.
The majority of atheists logic: Go and claim Randi's prize to "prove" you have abilities.
Me checking on Randi, "Randi was a magician". I tried to see if he has any diploma in sciences.... nothing, just a guy who is loud, and claims he has the serious experiments and he proves there are no psychics. In what kind of world "logical world" am I living into that a random loud guy without any PhD in sciences dares to say he knows the kind of experiments those people need to take.
And all those actual professionals with a real Phd who actually did experiments and even wrote books know nothing? or their experiments are faulty.
Yeah, go tell that to the police when someone is dead or goes missing. When the stakes are high you will use any help whatsoever. Get off your high horse, get real, in real world in very serious situations, officially the police will listen and pay attention, yes, to a psychic.
Some atheists really need to prioritize their logical thinking and instead of throwing words which doesn't have at the end any real meaning, to be actual rational and realistic and instead of following and believing a stupid magician filled with biases and trolling people with such inferior examples to actually see the facts and the very real scientists who did spend their precious time, wrote books and make more proper scientific conclusions.
Down point, just because you are an atheist and you throw words such as, logic, proof, reasoning, science and similar words, doesn't mean anything if you "believe" a magician and not a real scientist.
At the end you have become the same dogmatic individual like some religious people and you simply have joined a cult, filled with biases, skipping facts, unable to do a decent conversation without being sarcastic and insulting and not admit that sometimes, there is something which cannot be explained and simply keep an open mind, and yes, shut up, nobody is interested to listen about Randi the magician and what he has to say about science and nobody cares about his stupid prize. Shut up and observe.
Thanks so much for what you're doing. As an atheist I'm pretty embarrassed at the vehement, thoughtless, righteous, small-minded things I sometimes hear atheists say (same goes for Christians of course).
Me too.
Another thing atheists say, but probably shouldn't, is along the lines of "as a theist you believe in one god, so you disbelieve in all the rest of them. In fact you disbelieve in almost as many as I do, so are kind of an atheist yourself".
Mathematically that may be true. But it says nothing about the nature of theist belief, or that atheistic belief is more rational or more likely to be correct. I don't see the value of this statement as such that it should be used in argument, as it is not evidence of anything.
Well know athiest pressure the term athiest means none spiritual.
Athiesm only refers to God or gods, not spirituality. Buddhist would consider themselves athiest but their very spiritual. I consider myself an agnostic none believer as I only believe that which is obviously true to all about me or provable.
@@AlDunbar it's a very tryhard "gotcha" statement that yes, as you said, doesn't really land the way most athiests think it does. it's weird, it kind of ignores why those people believe in that god in the first place. like christians i feel don't shop around at allah and ganesha and baba yaga and whatever and be like "well jesus is the best one outta the bunch so"... they have emotional experiences which "connect" them to their dieties. so statements such as "lol u don't believe in the gods from religions uve never had a close experience with and yet u believe in the one god that u did lololol ur like me an athiest" come across as deeply ignorant of those reasons why people believe in the first place
@@abaddon2148 you don't get raised in a Jewish house and choose to ve Christian your raised to beleive Jewish religion is correct same with every other religion I was raised atheist my parents want to test if just taking a child to a church would make them beleive insaw it as a bunch of grown adults trying to tell me a being like SpongeBob exists and rules over all of us. A child not raised in religion that learns science in school won't beleive such things. I beleive we are born without religion and some person in the past made up religion to scare youth into being good people because they didn't want to ve tortured forever after they died. Almost every religion beleives in you die and either something good happens because you were good or you die and suffer because you were bad even native Americans had similar gods you can learn all about thier beliefs in Arizona at alot of different museums.
@@AlDunbar I think this is a good argument, and it is TRUE
Drew, I've used the "Born Atheist" argument when people have told me that they were born Catholic. Enough people have told me this that I have to think that they are getting it either from culture or church teachings. These people actually think that they came out of the womb Catholic, and that their religion is not just a belief system, but part of their DNA. I live in an area settled by Spanish Conquistadors before the Mayflower arrived at Plymouth rock...so the Catholicism goes back many generations.
Just because they use an illogical argument doesn't make yours any less illogical itself.
It wouldn't be a logical comeback to "God created the world" to counter with something you know to be false, like, "No, Isaac Newton created the world."
An illogical argument is an illogical argument, no matter how nonsensical the preceding argument may be.
@@Moxypony what's illogical about pointing out that a baby lacks a god belief?
@@anthonynorman7545 I believe it's more about that you can't say that the baby is an atheist because of its unbelief. It's something you have to consider.
@@ragg232 ...so if someone is never told about a diety they can't be an atheist?
@@ragg232 Atheism - Lack of belief in a God/Not convinced of a God
A baby - Does not believe in a God and isn't even aware of any God.
Baby == Atheist
"Our group doesn't deserve any less scrutiny just because it's our group."
That is just good advice.
This is great. Love your energy, and perspective.
I would love to hear your take on the "Skeptics"-movement implosion of the 2000's, when the loudest voices in the Skeptics community turned out to be rampant Misogynists, anti-trans, anti-queer, and oops full of racists... I am MANY others fled the Skeptics and Atheists communities because we could simply not have nice things.
I'll cite source if you need, but some simple googling would provide you with the major beats.
If you did NOT know about it... sorry. And that is why I was so SHOCKED that your channel came up on my feed. So - great job! Keep showing compassion and rational thought. Folks are listening.
You make some valid points in this video. I have said all of these things at some point but I'm willing to reflect. It's beyond important to criticize members of your own group and you shouldn't let threats tell you otherwise.
I'm a theist that enjoys your videos. You don't gloat or assume a position of superiority. You ask questions and propose measured responses. We always need people to ask hard questions and will always need people who stare at the void to maybe pull a speck of truth about our state of being from it. I once heard that an intelligent man can hold any idea without being consumed by it. You strike me as that kind of man. Religion or no religion we are of the same cloth. We are all together in this existence. I'm happy to know you exist in the way you do because we all benefit from insight.
Do you mean religious people?
I agree with you, we do need to ask the hard questions.
The problem that I have encountered though, is that the only answer from theists is "God". :/
Just because people have been practicing religion since recorded history does not negate it from being used as a tool of manipulation.
I put forward a saying from my father, a particle physicist, not religious, but proud of his Jewish heritage and with plenty of Biblical wisdom references which I utilize also. In regards to science v religion (and superstition) he said more than once: "Religion is the awe in which we hold our ignorance."
It’s ironic that his ad is one speaking about “getting to know Jesus personally”😭😭😭 I wonder if he knows that
what's an ad? Is it some sort of peasant joke i'm supposed to understand?
@John Doe r/woosh
you do realize he doesn't control what ads he gets, right?
He knows that he gets theist ads, theists pay for spots before atheists vids. He can't control it.
“Self-aggrandizing blow heads” my 18 year old self feels called out 😂😂
Though I now identify as a Unitarian Universalist Secular Humanist (which actually kind of sounds like something a self-aggrandizing blowhard would say)
What is that?
Daniel Christian Rohrer Peters what is what?
"Unitarian Unversalist Secular Humanist"
Daniel Christian Rohrer Peters DescriptionUnitarian Universalism is a liberal religion characterized by a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning". Unitarian Universalists assert no creed. Since UUs have wildly varying views about god in any form, while I am a UU, theologically I am secular humanist. Secular Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism or other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good. While I don’t believe in any god, the line between atheism and humanism is very thin. in the simplest terms, humanism places faith in humanity while atheism is the lack of belief in god.
I have a new favorite malapropism, “blow head”
Freedom of Religion, doesn't mean free to force religion on me!!!
I listened with an open mind. I hear validity in what you say. Self examination is something everyone should do. Though I may disagree on aspects of one or two things, generally I agree. Most important - respect and sensitivity should always be our guide. Some people have gotten to me lately. I needed that reminder. Thanks.
"I'm not your prophet."
I say you are, lord, and I should know. I've followed a few.
Vale Terry Jones :-)
Lord Nuxanor is my only lord and savior...
Only the real messiah denies his holiness!
@@darkira2129 ah I see you are a man of culture
Joseph Jostar: NIIICCE
As an atheist who stood far away from atheist community for years despite the fact that I've never really been heavily indoctrinated or had a strong belief in any deity from a fairly young age, to the point that I identified more with the "agnostic" side of "agnostic atheism" term only because my exposure to the community had been the type of people who found making Nazi jokes fun/thought being "Anti-SJW" is a good proud thing to be, I sincerely appreciate your tendency to call out such things in the community, Drew.
Yours is one of the few channels on Atheism that feels like would get the discussion moving forward, rather than going for a circlejerk attitude a big part of the online community seems to be. With channels like yours, Mr. Atheist and Rachel Oates, etc that is changing for better/there is a rise of atheists who are over their (understandable) lashing out period towards religion and instead focus more on what is harmful and what to improve, and I'm genuinely happy to see that.
Also, since the topic of anyone assuming the label "rational" without anything to back that up/as a 'conclusion' of a label they have (as in "men/atheists/[insert the stereotype] are more rational than [insert the other group]") always frustrates me, that point especially stands out to me, and always feels refreshing to see being challenged.
Anyway, keep rocking
i agree wholeheartedly. when i got exposed to more atheists, those are the only kinds of people i saw, the anti-sjw ones, and their rhetoric made me into a person i cringe thinking about. i'm glad there's better voices out there to snap people out of it now.
I was lucky enough to find the channels of people like Mr. Atheist others first, so I wasn't really exposed to Nazi-jokes or Anti-SJW.
What is it that you like about Nazis and SJWs?
People conflate anti-sjw as a bad thing most SJWs aren't good for any movement as they tend to lie, white knight, and wokescold their way through life and into the brownie point system of "look how much i care about shit that doesn't effect me in anyway"
Such as Steve Shoves who is/was only doing it for the views, thumbs up, and whatever credit that would get him in the SJW echo chamber....or as such those who moderated the atheist experience chat and facebook pages who made the environment toxic to anyone who was not a part of their special cliques.
Also i have no idea what Nazi Jokes you are referring to unless it was somebody pointing out Nazi's were actually Christians and doing so in a way that was satirical or condensending.
Daniel Essex Now look at that and then look at an anti-SJW.
Have fun.
I am linking this video to a thread on a debating forum entitled "Weird and confusing things non-theists claim about atheism" as I think it pertinent to the overall subject.
Also, I get the impression your justifications in holding the position of Atheist, are based upon the assumption that there are only two [opposing] positions folk can hold on the subject.
The underlying position stated re atheism is "Lack of belief in Gods" but the real question everyone is asking isn't "Does GOD/God/do gods exist" but rather "Do we exist within a creation?"
This subtle difference has contributed to more confusion and wasted energy re the battle between theism and atheism over the centuries, than has anything else
A theist - without theos. It's literally what the word means. A baby has a capacity to learn English, that doesn't make it an English speaker. It must be taught. Its capable of imagining a deity, that doesn't make it a theist. If it has no theistic belief, it's an atheist.
true.. but it feels like I have grown in the past years as an athiest
I forget where I heard it, but there's a line like: "People who change their belief tend to have thought more deeply about it." For me, it's just the act of challenging things and arriving at a conclusion that helped me grow.
@@shachna Any example of what you have challenged specifically? What did you believe prior to questioning?
Commented this on an another video of yours, and I’ll say it again here; Really appreciate the work you do.
Well-said about people assuming that the only understanding of God comes from the Bible. Founders of every major faith give perspective on this, what I call the "Unknowable Essence." Thank you.
Your discourse as always is clearly thought out and logically presented. I also admire your humility. I am old. It’s a pleasure to observe your youthful honest search for truth.
I think it's pretty awesome that you would put out this kind of content even knowing that it may cost some viewers. This is in the spirit of making our own arguments as strong as they can possibly be.
The "If you read the bible you would be an atheist" part, I always understood less literal and more as a methapher to communicate that there are enough contradictions and falsehoods in the bible that it could be enough to bring you away from the belief in it.
I agree that it is absurd in a literal sense, which is the reason I have never thought of it to be meant literally.
I also always thought that this phrase was a response to the Christian who said "Just read the Bible and you will realize that Christianity is true". Christians never considered that their Bible was bs and that's why they arrogantly think that this anthology will suddenly create believers. When the atheist responds with a "I read your Bible and that's why I'm an atheist", it is a rejection of a Christian's demand that we play along with their rules in their game where everything is stacked against us. It subverts the onus of having to jump through hoops and read this book and that book and demand that the Christian be a little less arrogant.
and in point of fact, I did read the Bible to prove that god existed. It just turned out that the more I critically read the text, the more I came to the belief that it was just a set of ancient fairy tales and there was no justifiable belief that the god in this text were anymore true than the Hindu gods or any other god that humans have worshiped. I do not need to read them all to observe a similar pattern of bait and switch and unjustified correlations (I prayed and x event occurred.) to formulate a generalized rule of all faith systems.
I don't mind rude atheism. Religious belief systems such as Christianity are inherently rude and yet, we pretend that they are kind and gentle. I mean, in Christianity (as a former Christian), the implication of being a non-christian is "you are evil", "you are a liar", "you are not a good person", "you want to sin" and so on. We've normalized the cruelty of these religious beliefs and that must stop.
@@jenniferhunter4074
I'm torn there.
I partly agree with what you wrote, but have a different experience with Christianity.
I'm German and was brought up Christian, which is probably a different experience in Germany than in other countries. I got taught a very ... let's say gentle version of christianity (you know Jesus hanging up with whores and the homeless ... hippy jesus, showing the other cheek, loving your neighbor and your enemies, etc.). My parents are Christians but a very liberal kind.
That's why I often see Christian in the US and think to myself "those aren't real Christians", because they don't fit my idea of christianity.
Even if a fallacious statement has truth behind it, it's still very, very unwise to use them in an argument. Just say the whole idea instead and don't give the other side a fallacious statement to throw back in your face...
@@ashkebora7262
I agree, but would point out that rethoric styles aren't automatically fallacious statements.
@@TBFSJjunior You're right. Though the context of this is already from fallacious statements. The statements we're talking about _are_ fallacies at face value.
Which, again, is a really bad way to try and convince someone of an idea. If they haven't thought about it before, they aren't going to have a solid foundation to build from. If you hand them a statement that's false at face value, and they don't have good enough heuristics to recognize the truth hidden within the context, you're only going to hurt your case.
It doesn't mean you _can't_ use these kinds of statements, but if you do, you better make _damn sure_ the other person understands the subtext completely. Which kind of begs the question... why not just say the subtext instead of hiding it in fallacies?
What a thoughtful, clear discussion. As an atheist with some devoutly theist friends and family, and no need to proselytize on behalf of my own beliefs, I only occasionally watch atheist content. Debates featuring Dennett, Dawkins, Hutchins, and so on have some entertainment value, but often I feel like they are preaching to the choir. Matt Dellahunt’s phone-in show seems designed to allow theists to embarrass themselves. Your program is something I could suggest to most anyone interested in calm discussion. I remember respecting Dennett in « Breaking the spell » when he spoke of his empathy for believers he met who explained how empty their lives would be without faith. His awareness is not something I sense in Dawkins, although I admit their roôles in public debate are different. So as we say, « Chapeau! ».
You really need to PRAY that ateists stop this.
“You’re not my desiple, and I’m not your Prophet”
Damn it Drew
thank you for starting an intelligent conversation about faith. i’m a christian who has encountered many antagonistic atheists and i know many christians who are just as antagonist. it’s great to know that there are still people who are willing to have good discussions
Fuck off homophobe
@@catcollector719
Well that came from left field and unjustifiably so..
I understand where the anger comes from but keep it towards the few denominations that do promote bigotry through their god beliefs, don't go assuming it off all theists.
@@AisC0220 the fuck? They don’t accept everyone dipshit. You think Pedos belong? Or homophobes? No
@@catcollector719 Hi Colin. Please don't assume that every religious person is a homophobe. There's a difference between faith and bigotry.
It isn't right, and it certainly isn't progressive to assume that anyone who disagrees with you disagrees as much as possible, which would seem to be the conclusion you've jumped to. By acting like this you're displaying the same lazy thinking of any bigot.
@@AisC0220 Hey. Please try not to interpret this one person's exclusivity as uniform throughout the LGBT. By doing so you're just making the same sweeping judgements as the person you intend to criticize.
A liar who believes their own lies is still a liar.
I was raised by atheists. They never spoke about atheism or religion. It was a topic that just was not in my home. I was in no way influenced to be an athiest. I believe I am an atheist now because I had very little exposure to religion. A lack of exposure to religion is not the same as exposure to atheism. I believe the majority of humans, born and raised today in the absence of direct religious influence by their parents, will not become theists. That's why I believe humans are born athiest. It's just a way of reinforcing that our minds start as blank slates, and we are the product of our abilities and environment.
Actually it was really reading the Bible through (rather than focusing exclusively on pretty much the New Testament) and spending some serious time in the Old Testament and finally recognizing the character of God was one of the factors leading to my loss of faith. So different experiences for different people.
Strangely the opposite was true for me, the Old Testament gave coherence and credibility that the New Testament on its own could never do, and it wasn't until I started understanding what it meant to read something literally and not just as a message that I was able to justify my faith.
(Not saying this to criticize your opinion, just to show an example of the inverse, I think your perspective is important to have.)
@@jeremyabrahamson2872 I am intrigued. What does "reading something literally" mean to you in this context?
@@pikadragon2783 Well, thats longer conversation not really suited for UA-cam comments. I'd love to clarify best I can if you're willing to bring it elsewhere.
What character conclusion did you come to that caused you to lose your faith?
As a child, I stopped after reading Exodus 21:20
7:07 as an atheist I have something to add here.
Although I don’t find this enough of a reason to become a theist, I know that there are many people out there who take their religion and associated mythology as a metaphor to understand emotional and psychological elements of human life, as well as to inform their morality.
Not all theists believe in a material god that can interfere with actual reality, and many have scientifically grounded beliefs about material reality and religious ones about social/spiritual reality.
TL;DR: science and religion are not always incompatible.
Yeah. When I was a Christian, I see to believe that everything happened the way science says, but because the god I believed in made it that way. Now I believe it was purely science, but hey, that’s just me.
Recently I heard the sentence: if Jesus lived today, he'd be an atheist.
It is an interesting idea. .
They're only compatible if you let yourself engage in the vague, metaphorical "thinking" instead of actually analyzing and trying to making precise sense of the concepts you're using. The kind of "thinking" that is never actually wrong, because to be wrong, it has to be coherent and meaningful first. This way everything is compatible with everything.
Finally someone with intelligence. Let me guess, you too realise that athiests and theists alike conflate belief with claim-making. (A belief being akin to a prediction or speculation that fills the void of facts and evidence as opposed to a claim that admits unsubstantiated certainty). A belief is not burdened with proof as it admits uncertainty, and through uncertainty one avoids fallacy. When someone goes a step further and claims their belief is true, thats when they burden themselves to prove it. Let me know if you agree. The amount of athiests i've had to argue this with is insufferable. They continually attempt to falsify an unfalsifiable speculative entity.
@@michaelpapageorgious5053 i agree, but also gm skeptic, from what he has said in other videos, also agrees
One thing u can know for sure is that u can never stop learning
Baby atheists: Totally agree. Marking a child as Atheist is no better than baptising them. From my readings this is contrary with the biblical idea that the subject should aware and willing. Something most Christians ignore.
In prehistory I am not so convinced. References to God belief is suggested amongst early writings but recent discoveries in Turkey suggest to me a more shamanistic tradition of animal spirits and ancestor worship as still exists amongst African bushman passing into North Asian and early American. Who can say for certain?