332: Is The 222 Rem “GOOD ENOUGH” For Deer?
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- Опубліковано 15 сер 2024
- Welcome to the Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast! I've got a big question for you. Do you think the 222 Remington cartridge is adequate for deer hunting, and do you know whether a bullet continues to accelerate after it has left the muzzle of your rifle? We're going to try to find out the answers to those questions on today's episode of Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast.
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
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Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
I know a father/son, both passed now who used the same 222 rifle for over 50 years for whitetail in WV with countless kills and no losses.
I have used the Hornady 77 gr Interlock soft point for YEARS! 95% of them drop in their tracks and the others haven’t gone more that 15 yards.
Most .222's have a SLOW 1:14 twist. Re-barrel with a faster twist such as a 1:8, 1:9 so you can use a heavier bullet. With shot placement, they work great on AZ Cous deer and AK Black tail. I've had great success with the 62 gr Speer Gold Dot's.
Yup ..... 62 grain
And to think people would like to preclude you the opportunity to do this because it is a .222 or whatever. Nothing quite like a closed mind to modern constantly improving ballistic science is there?
I have been told by neighbors that they used 222s for texas deer effectively
Interesting and informative, as always Ron!
I myself have used a 222 rem quite a bit for a few years, from a old Valmet/Tikka model 412 combi-riffle (12ga/222rem over-under). It is a heavy rifle with a straw-thin riffle-barrel but with great accuracy! Quite popular still here in Europe (Sweden) second hand, for mixed small game hunting. Don't know the twist-rate of the barrel but it would stabilize 55-62gr bullets.
My experience with (roe)deer and Canadian goose (on a field as pest-control) up to 200m is that you want a harder expanding bullet for best effect, killing and penetration.. I used the Norma "roedeer" 62gr bullet/ammo with best success, it is a slower bullet (ca 850m/s) with a harder jacket, but "just" a normal "cup and core" lead-tip.. Stays together well and mushrooms fine with good penetration. Tried a Sako (hammerhead/gameking) that was faster (close to 1000m/s) and 55gr once on a goose at 150m, it was more like varmint-bullet and exploded on impact on the outside of the wing-bone, leaving a shallow gory wound and the bird flew away.. Had to chase it with a boat out in the sea and finish it of with another shot from the 12ga.
Would like to try bonded bullet and copper in the 222 next time..
Always nice to hear your opinions!
Greetings from a wintry northern Sweden.
I have never heard of a Model 70 that doesn't shoot MOA or better. I have a more recent FN Winchester Model 70, and it is the most accurate rifle I have ever shot, or seen shot. And it's not like it's a precision chambering. It's just a 7mm-08, but with Hornady American Whitetail, or Superformance I can often stack my groups under a nickel. I would absolutely recommend, if you can afford a $1000+ rifle, to consider a Model 70 if you want an accurate and reliable gun.
Agree on the M70 ..
Bought a 222 in 1981. I have fired many rounds through this thing. Have I ever hunted deer with it? As I live in the Southwest, absolutely not. If I lived in Georgia with 50 pound whitetail, maybe. Have I ever seen a mulie taken with a 222? Yes, I have. I love my deuce, but when it comes to deer, the 243 is the smallest that I would use.
1950's 222 sako vixen. One hole at 100 yards. Head and neck shots works great less than 100 yards. Go to is 280 remington, ruger m77
TC made good firearms. To bad S&W did a disservice to the industry and TC owners and stopped production. I love my Contenders.
Agree with you on S&W making a mistake there with TC.. Really surprised no one has bought em n got rm back up n going..Same with H&R New England
@@michaelwilson9986 TC was bought and will be producing firearms again, video here on YT......
Re: .222 for deer. It is a favored cartridge for deer in Europe though most of their varieties are equal to or smaller than our average whitetail doe.
In Nebraska .22 caliber is permitted as long as the load has 900 ft lbs of energy at 100 yards. I haven't found a factory .222 load yet that meets that criteria (wish I could). Perhaps a reloader reading this can respond with a load they build that suffices.
I have found 2-3 factory loads in .223 that make the grade and all those are either PSP or SP's.
Most deer I've taken have been with the .22-250. Have DRT'd quite a few at 200-250 yards but most have been within 175. I've viewed Ron's vlog on the .22-250AI but can't seem to bring myself to doing it on my Ruger Mark II KVM SS. CRAP!, I think I just talked myself into getting another Savage (yes I'm a fan, 11x over) and AI-ing it. Thanks A LOT, RON!
this is merica
Barnes 50 gr TTSX should work.
Ron need your calming voice with this heck of day.
T/C icons also had Green Mountain barrels with 5 R rifling and a Hogue stock.Great shooting rifles that took advantage of other companies good products.Sound familiar???
In the right hands it sure is adequate. Long ago our forefathers used sharp sticks and rocks to hunt with.
My Dad was thoroughly convinced that .250-3000 Savage was worthless as a deer cartridge. He couldn't tell me the bullet weight or ammo brand that he saw fail, but he was convinced it was worthless. Thats how these attitudes go. I knew a family that had racked up deer, elk, black bear, and mountain lion with a little 99 in .250 Savage over about 30 years. No issues. They liked 100 grain bullets.
exactly! Haha yep on my dad’s deer lease in TX, which has about 10 members, this year I met one guy who hay-eeeeetes the 6.5 creed with a passion, and also met another guy on the lease who lovesssss his 6.5 creed. haha and yes I think it is just down to bullet choice mostly,
which I only recently became educated about while watching Spomer vids. But it also really humorous to me how sometimes these misconceptions that some outdoorsmen have about various things become so ridiculously ingrained. When in fact, all it is, is an opinion! Like, that’s totally great and fine! I just wish that, more people would understand that no preferring a type of caliber is only a preference and opinion versus your example, for example, where you have first hand evidences contradicting each other and yet, some people will doggedly adhere to misconceptions continuously even in the face of irrefutable evidence instead of being like, ok, fine, that may be true, however I simply just do not want to shoot that particular caliber. haha, which of course is completely and totally fine and good and great and grand!
German hunting regulations require a minimum 1,000 Joules for roe deer, and 2,000 Joules for European red deer and wild boar; the .222 Rem remains popular for the former, and 8x57JS or .308 Win or .30-06 for the latter, but the smaller caliber is waning in popularity as boar populations have increased and it's always better to be prepared. North American whitetails tend to fall roughly between roe and red deer in size, so I personally wouldn't feel comfortable using a .222 Rem or .223 Rem (or 5.56×45mm NATO) for those, but I'd be interested to learn if people over there do ... perhaps this falls into the "is the AR-15 really a proper deer rifle?" debate.
In new Zealand they use the 222
Frangible bullets are good if you don't mind chewing real slow so you won't break a tooth. Great videos!!!
I was gonna ask that… it would be like bird shot!!
If you're running a 22 .223/.224) caliber centerfire for deer hunting try your best to run the 60 grain Nosler partition. (Yes hand load) - you can think me later.
11:00; oh man i think that would be a super fun experiment for a gun tuber to test out! How cool. Even if we technically know the answer, might would fun to try to test it. I dunno how someone would do it but I am thinking maybe with multiple chronographs? Measuring FPS at muzzle and then like, every hundred feet? Orrrr… like maybe with one of those super amazing Phantom high speed cameras like some of the tubers use? And then with that, one could take the footage and mathematically derive FPS every other foot from the muzzle and graph it out and get alllllll super nerdy about it!😅 Yo I would watch that video! And then it would confirm or disconfirm for that caliber if the bullet continues to accelerate after leaving the muzzle.
Love your videos, and that’s really cool how the guy from Germany talks to ya .
What about the 277 fury or the military adopting the 6.8
I had a neighbor that swore by the triple deuce he reloaded for it and liked the Sierra bullet don't know what grain the rifle was a 600 Remington I believe I know that it was a Remington just don't remember what model it had kinda like a ventilated rib like a shotgun on it but he didn't like it and ground it off 😂 but that old man took many northern Minnesota whitetail and quite a few black bear with that gun long before it was legal to use for deer in Minnesota
I use the Lee load data manual. Thanks for reading my message on bullet drop.Another great video! Dave.
Used a 222 for years on the farm in Missouri. I don't remember shooting anything past 200 yards mostly 100 yards or so.. Never had one run far. Certainly no further than any other rifle I own. It is a nice shooting gun it's accurate and lightweight. Shot placement and distance are the main things just like any other firearm.
Honestly poachers have been killing deer with plain old .22 rifles for ever. They are cheap and disposable, not ethical or legal but happens more than one might think. Depending on what part of the country you go. Heard it happen more than once on our farm, road hunters mainly. Now I do like my 300 Win mag with Berger VLDs really reach out and touch em across these big Nebraska cornfields where I live now.
Used 222 Rem. on Whitetail close to 100 yards with success. I was using Remington factory ammo at that time. May try it again in the future with some reloads I have been working on.
Is 222rem good for dear?, not in West Virginia! The DNR had permitted 223 rem a few years ago and not have reversed track and reinstated the .25 minimum caliber requirement along with the centerfired cartridge requirement for whitetail here in the East. So much for 243 win, but 30-30win is still a go for your lever guns.
True. Been hunting on our Grant county property 30 yrs now. Seen some deer soak up lead in the vitals and keep running. Always used .264-.284" bullets at max velocities . No poor hits either. So, I agree with WV DNR -.25 and above. Conversely, my cousin lost two deer using a .348 winchester/ 200 gr. Silvertips. Penciled through. So, it's possible to go too big.
Try the Lehigh controlled chaos for the .222 rem. Kind of the best of both worlds
I would be interested in any comparison of .338 rounds the federal, 338-06, and the short mag's not so much in the ultra fast stuff I went to school with a man that made a 338-370 something weatherby mag as far as I'm concerned that would have been useless but I guess to each his own
Years ago I reloaded the 222 with 63 grain psp and have taken 3 nice bucks with it. The bulletts generally either go all the way through or I recoverd 1 that stopped just beneath the far side hide!! All three dropped immediately. And man that gun does not have any kick!!
In OK you have to use a 55gr minimum, this gives me confidence that I could reload some 55 or 63 for my 14” TC for a handgun hunt. Range would be maybe max 60yds
Watched/Heard a story not long ago about a Warden/Game control Officer using only a 223 for Bear culling in Wy/Co back in the day. Close range and behind the ear
I shot a blesbok in the neck this past winter. It was at about 75 yards and ot barely penetrated trough the skin,so my personal experience with v-max is use it as a varminter only. The 222 is adequate for deer sized game but not with varminter points
I have taken mountain reedbuck at 270 yards with a softpoint and it hardly went 10 paces before it colapsed. But i wouldn't go further than that
Yes it is and you should bring up the 220 swift, there's a caliber for deer
Hornady still lists a 178 grain 300 RCM which is about 150 fps faster than the 30-06 load with the same bullet. The 300 and 338 RCM cartridges as well as the 375 Ruger were discussed in a recent Hornady Podcast.
The RCM cartridges are related to the current PRC series and were developed by Hornady. They use a 532" diameter case which is smaller and has less powder capacity than the .555" dia cases used by the WSM-series. The factory loads from Hornady used optimized Superformance-type powders that could not be matched by handloaders with off the shelf propellants. With Hornady's magic powders, the 300 RCM matched typical 300 WSM loads when used in handy 20" barrels. There are some videos about the RCM's still available on Hornady's UA-cam channel.
Unfortunately, handloaders could not match the factory velocites. Some of the magazine articles from that time are still online and they all said pretty much the same thing: "The 300 WSM is faster, especially with handloads, so why bother with the RCM". The RCM's did not use faster twist barrels or allow longer, sleeker bullets than the other short-mags, so they really didn't have any significant advantages like the current PRC-series does.
If I recall correctly the RCM cartridges were the start of the superformance powders, hornady used what they learned making the RCM to later start the superformance line.
@@jaydunbar7538 Hornady had a recent podcast about the 375 Ruger and the RCM's that discussed this. As they were developing the 375 Ruger, they couldn't get the desired velocity with available propellants, so started working directly with St. Marks Powders to develop propellants optimized for particular cartridges and bullets. It started with the 375 Ruger and continued with the the RCM's, Leverevolution, Superformance ammo, etc. Dave Emery said they now have something like 38 custom propellants that came out of that program.
I think Hodgdon recently released Hornady Superformance powder.
Straight walled 444 is a nice round!!
Excellent
Hello Ron I would like to get into muzzle loading. Specifically flint locks. Where is a good place to find info on the ballistics. I’ve talked to people but they never know much about the ballistics and how different powder and bullet combos affects things. Thanks just found your show and really enjoy it.
Adam, ballistics really don’t apply. The round ball has a low B. C. And MV is low at around 1,200 fps. You’re basically looking at a 100 yard max. effective range. Flintlocks are more about the hunt (getting close) then ballistic performance.
My uncle, back in the ‘60s, an employee of the Dept. of Interior, used to take my used .222 brass for reloading.
He used the cartridge on deer. Even as a kid, I felt that the .222 was insufficient for humanely taking deer, but my uncle told me that he used this cartridge only for head shots. He would aim just behind the ear, and never had a deer lost due to running away.
222 rem was used for years culling deer in NZ
Yes..i have sern hunt videos from nz,they use a .222 rem.!✅
Started with the 222 here in Pa took many deer with it
30:00; yes links are good but the youngsters must also take into account that books are better because books and manuals outlast the internet with its primary weakness of having to be ultimately powered by electricity. And I say that as a “transitional millennial” who grew up having to learn both the book ways and the internet ways, before some or a lot of the educational system gave up on teaching kids how to research books and started over emphasizing internet links as primary sources. it is a bad thing in my opinion, that I say as I type this on the internet!😅 books! books are better!
I can drive my truck on flat tires but why would I want to? The 222Rem is just too weak/small to consider except for the smallest deer.
Uh no
With modern bullets a .222 is a killer all out of proportion to its size and appearance. You must consider any cartridge by current capability not what it did a half century or more ago.
@@johnnorman7708 but why?
What's the scoop on the radio collared deer Aram and that lady both shot?
Ron,
I'm listening to the podcast on Spotify at work. Couple of quick notes other than loving it very much even though I only hunt for steel and paper and not game.
1 I keep getting the same damned commercial for mint mobile. I've about got all 3 minutes of their add memorized since I usually have greasy/oily hands and cannot fast forward. Is there anything you can do about the commercials? They seem to be embedded within the episode as if you are inserting them on your end.
2. I believe it was roughly episode 303 you told a guy who found a Gewehr 8mm to clean his bore down to bare metal, fire 3 fouling shots, and then begin testing and/or working up a load. This is incorrect. On the precision target shooting side of the house, we often find that a barrel will require anywhere from 20 rounds to I've heard as high as 80 rounds for the barrel to become dirty enough that velocity finally speeds up and then settles down, and this is also when a rifle will achieve it's peak precision.
Sub-note: Precision and accuracy are two completely different concepts. If you have a 24 inch steel gong at 100 yards and your shots land all over the plate, that is an accurate rifle, but it is not Precise. Conversely, if all 10 rounds land in a tight tight group 4 inches high and 8 inches left, that would be a precise rifle but not accurate. Only when all rounds are in a tight group landing exactly on the point of aim can you call a rifle booth precise and accurate. Just wanted to throw that out there and now that you know the concept I'm going for, you might be able to word it better.
This leads me into the final point that I want to make: You need to put together a rifle and ammo combination capable of 1MOA or better, and attend at least one Long Range target shooting course.
It's a hell of a lot of fun, and it will help you when you are comparing long range target shooting to hunting shooting. I often hear you say some things that don't jive too well with what I have been taught.
I can recommend the course at Gunsite in Nevada. They trained Mark Wahlberg for his Marine Sniper movie called Shooter, and I believe they trained Brad Cooper for American Sniper.
Also recommend Long Range Shooters of Utah in the city of Price
And my number one pick is Modern Day Sniper with classes taking place all over the country.
Love the show and all that you do for us, keep up the great work.
Your friend, Mr. Nobody
P.S. I want to hear you reading more hunting stories and articles. You've got a great voice for audio books as well as for a writer, and with my vivid imagination, I get to escape from work and be right there with you hunting down those Cattail Whitetails.
Hunt honest and shoot straight
I’d go with a 250 gr eldx and then swap the .222 for a .300 prc!! 😉
There is no such thing as overkill.
I would like to see more about the 30 rcm also. Thanks
I used a222 here in Pennsylvania for a few years and harvested many deer..
Mr. Ron as always a great podcast! I was wondering if you could talk about the Nosler cartridges. 22, 26, 27, 28, 30, & 33. Are they better than their comparibles and if so how? Thank you!
Fish dog, they are nearly all optimized for shooting high B.C. bullets at near top velocities in their categories. Fine options if that's what you're after. The 28 Nosler is wildly popular in my neighborhood.
Browning A Bolt. Was 1st I know of the full bolt dia n locking lugs 60 degree throw
Weatherby back in the early 60’s in the Mark5 action
Ron the barrel friction would be released at bullet exit, which with the rear gas pressure still acting on the bullet it may create a fraction of a second boost due to the loss of barrel friction?
I’ve got my last 4 deer with a 222
Not the Drew in question, but I’ve used .222 with success on whitetail.
.22 mag has killed a few around me...years ago...allegedly.
Meant to type in 225 win
t c missed lugs the size of bolt body by about 45 years !!!! mark five weatherby🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Can you talk about the 303 British. Also why don’t manufacturers make new rifles in 303?
Coming from southeast Missouri the 222 has killed a lot of deer!
"NO" not enough power. 1500 ftp for deer. 1800+ for elk/moose. 2500+ for Big Bears, African Dangerous Game.
As hunters we owe it to the game we take, for clean and Humane kill! ❤
Absolutely agree with you 💯 percent!
Is youtube trying to see how many commercials they can put in a 41 min video
Roebuck yes. Here in Deutschland,
A good hunter can take most anything with most any round.
But a man must know his limits as well as limits of the round he uses.
I still shoot 250-3000 in a model 99 .... I am an old fart but when I shoot they fall down .....that's all I know
In the Canadian Arctic the.222 REM reigned supreme for decades as a seal rifle and for Caribou. However, the Arctic Islands are flat as a pancake, a wounded animal is easily ran down on a snowmobile. The Caribou are of the Perry’s race, a 140 pound bull is a serious stud. The NWT government sanctions the use of the .222 on caribou only above the tree line, because in bush country with tall waist high grass, it is a different story, where animals that run off for more then 50 yards can be very hard to find.
I have seen many caribou shot with all the different 22 centre fires. With a proper bullet placement they kill just as fast as larger calibers.
Quite a few polar bears are killed with the .222 REM, either head shot at close range or into the heart through the thin skin around the arm pit. Although this is not exactly allowed even there.
Question one: yes. (but not suitable)
Question two: no
Ron
I love your discussions and the information you provide, BUT these excessive commercial interruptions are a game killer for me. There were at least 10 interruptions during this video. Can't do it.
In nz 222 was a favourite amongst feral deer cullers and that’s mostly red deer
,223 ...60 grain nosler partition!
Not In Canada but yeah! We can't "legally" hunt big game ungulates with anything under 23 cal.
Professional deer cullers in New Zealand took thousands of red deer
Game kings rule on deer
I got one 222mag. It will not shoot 222. What is the difference in the two. KELVIN
Kelvin, these are two significantly different cartridges. The 22 Win Mag is a rimfire, the 222 Rem. is a centerfire. The 22 WM is 1.35" long and .24" wide and shoots a 50-gr. bullet about 1,500 fps. The 222 Rem. is 2.13" long, .376" wide and throws the same 50-gr. bullet 3,150 fps.
The 222 Rem Mag has the same dimensions as the 222 Rem except the mag has a slightly longer case therefore they will not interchange..
Ron: Did you mean elbow? You kept saying shoulder. A deer's heart is between its elbows.
Are you sure you aren't confusing elbow with shoulder? How a deer stands determines whether the heart is under the shoulder or just behind it.
@@ArnieD17 The elbow is where the heart is.
🤔😳😂
What hat are you wearing
My grandfather killed a lot of deer with a 222
I like State Laws that say .243 Min. Caliber for Big Game. I am sure some get dramatic results with .22 Cal. But I am sure there are some Dramatic Failures ! Just my 2 cents.
Here's my 2 Cents.
I don't like state laws that establish the .243 as a minimum big-game caliber at all. They haven't made sense since the advent of controlled-expansion lead core .224" bullets 40 years ago and they make even less sense in the here and now where monolithic copper or gilding metal .224" bullets are commonplace.
The only dramatic failure I ever experienced in a sport hunting situation was with the .300 Weatherby Magnum . I had a Ruger No,1 B chambered to that and made the longest sport-hunting shot of my life with it at 278 yards on a big broadside mule deer. My first two shots left two cauterized primary wound channels through the lungs. The third one took out the heart.
I accidentally learned the hard way why Sierra doesn't recommend their 190 grain .308" Match King bullets for game hunting. In my haste, I grabbed the wrong ammo out of the back of my '73 Bronco I had back then. It's the only time in my life I've ever had to shoot a game animal more than once.
Adding two more cents to the kitty, I'd venture to say that "Dramatic Failures" have more to do with the bone-head toting the rifle than the rifle itself or the caliber it is chambered for, at least where deer are concerned.
Why does anyone still shoot 222 when 223 exists.
My dad gave me one rifle out of his dizzying collection, and it was the only one I would have picked: a Remington 788 in.222. He glass bedded it in a thumbhole stock, and he won several trophies with it. I remember as a boy, seeing him load three bullets, taking me to the range, shooting them, and taking notes, then going back home, loading three more, and going again to the range. One hole groups all day, once the powder charge was just right. I can't shoot that good myself, or reload as precisely, but I can't shoot anything as well as that rifle.
@@rotisseriebear5394 thanks for sharing. Great story.
.222's are extremely accurate. They were the bench rest standard for 40 years.
@@JT-py9lv My dad always said that the barrel being one one thousandth tighter squeezed the bullet tighter than a 223 barrel, making it engage the rifling better. What do the cool kids say about that?
@@rotisseriebear5394 I've re-barreled many rifles. When you purchase a barrel blank, the manufacturer does not ask if it's for a .222 or a .22-250 - He just sends you a barrel that's cut for .224. Here is one from a popular barrel mfg:
.224 CF
- 6.5" * Ratchet rifled 4 groove
- 7" for bullets up to 90 gr.
- 7.5" * Ratchet rifled 4 groove
- 8" for bullets 80 gr. and under
- 8" * Ratchet rifled 4 groove
- 9" for bullets up to 70 gr.
- 10" * for bullets up to 65 gr.
- 12" for bullets up to 63 gr.
- 14" for bullets up to 55 gr.
- 14" * Ratchet rifled 4 groove
Not appropriate for deer. End of story.
That’s what you think buddy.
@johnbozak1662 yes, that's what I think. Lol
No
Why would you want to?
Just say no to clickbait arrows.
aint got tha ASSS . Stop it .