Vapour Barrier Liners ( VBL ) Part 1: Hands & feet / gloves & socks in Alaska's extreme cold. [4K]
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- Опубліковано 28 кві 2023
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Alex's new channel, Arguably: / @arguably-alexhibbert5085
I'm doing two episodes dedicated to a prickly topic amongst cold weather outdoors folks. If you sleep outdoors in the deep cold without the comfort of a hut/cabin/truck for multiple nights, moisture becomes an issue. Frostbite, hypothermia or just general discomfort can result if you ignore the early signs of damp or iced clothing. This is specific to serious cold, and not a viable method for those dealing with freeze/thaw conditions, where rain/sleet complicates things.
In the first episode, I'm covering the use of Vapour / Vapor Barrier Liners for feet and hands. A sleeping bag VBL guide will follow.
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Alex's new channel, Arguably: / @arguably-alexhibbert5085
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It’s nice to see someone who actually has experience giving advice based on iteration and real world use instead of promoting fancy flashy expensive gear!
Wow quite the setup interesting battery rig
Great to learn from a experienced pro. Friends and me camp out during the winter the coldest was -20C and occasional snow. We are at a campsite sometimes even with electricity. So it is camping out for sissies. But still great to do.
Whilst I live in Australia and have to deal with high temps from day to day, I have British Heritage and cope with cold temps much better than the hot ones. I would love to try dealing with sub zero days in this manner, but dont have the means to do so. This is why I love watching you as more content comes out. Cant wait till you manage to take Alan out and subject him to the original impact of arctic expeditions. :) Thanks Alex :)
You could try working in the frozen food section of the local supermarket the big freezes are about -21C... Which I find nice and refreshing ..I'm also a Brit and like you can't cope with heat but like the cold ..
@@stephensmith1118 Yeah ive done that over the years, I used to do security with Coles and Woollies to cover the booze sections. That was a long time ago though, im over 50 years old now and would really like to do the extreme exploration work, but its beyond me. Life just extends beyond you after a while. such is life.
@@whisperzzar3321 hey your still a youngster.... I suggest watching the last of the summer wine for tips on how to survive the more mature years ... I escaped blighty and move to Canada... So adventure is just p the road aways.... Have fun....
Super cool thanks
I used to ride my bicycle up to the forested ridges above Boise and have the weather get very cold late in the day, and I would go screaming down the paved road back home. Some plastic shopping bags (which I kept stuffed into my handlebars) came in very handy to keep my hands and feet warm on the way down.
Thanks for this!
i use surplus nordic military mittens: wool insert, duck canvas shell with leather palms. Easily dried, and easy off/on. My snow travel is never flat, so steaming fingers is vital temp reg kit
That pack looks like, it's gonna get you warm, one more time🤣
I'm looking forward to the sleeping bag VBL video.
Never thought of all that
Reminds me of my first winter in Montreal, -26 c, first time I hear snow sqeek as I walked on it... I'm going try the vapour barrier method for motorcycling in cold weather....
:-) i'm well into the age of 'using the car' rather than abusing my hands, feet, eyes. That said i'm a daily commuter still, but the go anywhere at any time of year biker in me has retired 😀 Mind you I do find british army goretex boot liners and goretex lined combat gloves really good on the bike from the dry point of view rather than adding to the warm etc.
@@alan-sk7ky ah gortex the greatest thing since waxed cotton.... And it doesn't leave waxy Stains on white shirts on the hotter days.... Lol
a, brilliant. A peak on the inside! love it =)
Cheers
When I wear any sort of nitrile gloves I put on thin cotton inspection gloves underneath. They absorb sweat well, and make removing the gloves easier. If you're doing mechanical work and your gloves tip, the ones underneath will help keep your hands clean.
If you are ok with drying out a pair of thin liners each evening, then that's a fair system.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals the inspection gloves I'm thinking of are disposable. They come in a dozen pairs. They are thin and dry quickly in direct sun and over a hot stove.
Oh I see. Not sure how long they would last / how many needed. Cotton takes forever to dry once damp. Polypropylene or silk, if very thin, could work in this outdoor scenario.
p.s. I love your mitten modifications!
Cheers
Grandma used bread loaf bags on me feet over the shoes and socks but inside the rubber overshoes . I got to play outside at -20f but not at -40 because of lung freezing. Thing.
Cheap plastic grocery store bags work to traipse from the house to the car. 😉
It almost looks like you are near my property/cabin. If you do not mind me asking where did you record the tutorial? Liners and layers are a must in colder climates, especially if you are going to be outdoors for extended periods of time. It is always good to see you came back to my great state.
This particular clip was near the Matsu valley. Cheers!
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Ahh ok . I was thinking possibly right outside of Palmer. You really couldn't of gotten a better day get this video done and enjoy the outdoors. Another great video man and hope you make it back up here.
To funny. We are off gridders living outside Willow. Just across the pass from Palmer.
@@coffeehouseforge5632 *too funny
Who’da thought the bread bags we wore in the 1960s in Minnesota were so high tech!
Hi Alex, What kind of bindings are those?
Recently came over your channel and it's amazing to hear from someone with so much experience. Would really like to hear all about what kind of skis, bindings, and skins you now prefer and why, maybe a new video.
Also, have you tried Alfa boots with the pin binding (like rottefella bc), if so, how do like them?
Hi. These are Flexi bindings made by IceTrek. On my own skis I have a modified design I made myself.
Alfas? No. Not a fan at all of Nordic rigid bindings and the awful boots that slice up peoples' feet!
Hi Alex, I have nothing against VBLs but I have had bad personal experiences, especially with blisters on the under side of my foot. At the moment I use mitts and boots with removable insulation (Hestra Arny Leather Heli Mitts and Lundhags Expedition BC respectively) which I dry in my sleeping bag at night. I am going out in Scandinavian conditions which are not as cold as Alaska. When I use VBLs I also use a thin liner sock (synthetic / wool blend), and a thick woollen sock over the VBL. The clammy micro-climate inside the VBL does make one's skin softer and more vulnerable. Have you had problems with blisters and if so what do you do to prevent them?? Taping? Powder?
Drying things into a sleeping bag is a very short term solution, as it ices up the sleeping bag. Really for extended travel you need a system that keeps gear consistently dry.
With good liner socks I've not had any blister issues. I use soft boots and foam liners. Occasionally I get a little rubbing on my shin, but that's easily sortable by shaving a zone and pre-taping. Powder doesn't really work for day to day use. A quality skin cream is good for the evenings in the tent for fingers and feet.
Be careful with leather gloves. Unless kept dry they can turn to solid ice.
I also had theses issues many years ago, I use pretty much the same setup as Alex for feet, what solved the problem for me was higher quality gear that fitted better.
@@AlexHibbertOriginalsI hate any type of VBL and never use them in boots, gloves, nor in a sleeping bag. But I've nothing against people using a VBL system, and have many friends who swear by their efficiency during prolonged cold trips or expeditions. I think we all have different ways of remaining dry, warm and comfortable during weather extremes.
Thank you for sharing your valuable knowledge!! Eric Philips mentions that "there's no need for a VBL with Intuition boot liners, as they are made from closed-cell foam" though I guess one needs to dry out them inside at the end of the day but maybe with just kitchen paper it can be done. I use VBL's but I don´t like them (having to dry the damp and not so flowery smelly socks against your body). Btw, do you know how the innuit dealt with this matter (as obvioulsy they did not use VBL's)? Thanks!!
Yes, I did a separate test that showed Inuitions do take on plenty of moisture - just less than Baffin liners. If you're doing a summer Antarctic trip, there's plenty of scope to dry them overnight. In winter/spring trips, or without heading back to a warm place each night, less so.
Have you tried Sealskinz waterproof socks? I always take a pair when on multi day hikes
Nightmarish for prolonged use. I'll do a proper review perhaps. And they release moisture into boots.
You can generally tell by the modifications when a person knows what they are doing
Hi Alex, very interesting videos. question: I have a pair of sealskin waterproof socks: could they be used as vbl? I would use them on top of the thick wool sock, so I would have to dry socks out very day with a hot water bottle, but would they be effective to keep the boots dry? thanks.
It depends on the model, but generally 'waterproof' socks also claim to be breathable, and wouldn't work as a VBL. A VBL needs to resist vapour as well as large drops of water.
I love the rab vapour liner socks they are cheap and durable
But short, and with a HH of only 1500, certainly not a vapour barrier! They are just pu coated nylon.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals hmm I have had a lot of success with them and they held like plastic bags they are definitely short
If you used these over multiple days and weeks with sole and heel pressure from sweating feet, plenty of moisture will escape. Nylon absorbs water very readily, and thin polyurethane coatings only do so much.
Just to add, you dont want your boot liners to get damp for a couple of reasons. One, your feet get cold. Obviously. But two, because they freeze to the bottoms of your boots. When you attempt to remove the liners at the end of the day, you rip the bottoms off and thats game over.
I worked years in the Canadian oilfield and this happened constantly with my -100c rated boots until I learned this layering system. So many repurchased liners.
The key lesson I've learned is to immediately throw away Baffin liners!
I'm genuinely fascinated. Admittedly my experience in cold weather is a Scottish midwinter but I always found plastic bags created an unbearable 'dampness' in the foot area. I guess the more extreme the cold the better it is. Given that companies are churning out all sorts of specialist kit and charging the earth for it surely some marketing guy would have said 'let's make a foot/hand shaped bin bag and charge 50 quid for it'?
They have, but all have relied on treated nylon fabric, which isn't really waterproof. The seams were an issue too.
I'd never use VBLs for cold wet conditions, where you'd get a freeze-thaw cycle.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals thanks for the response
Great video, I found it informative. I've battled cold hands and feet for years. I'm going to give your system a try next winter. I do have a question. Did you rip a fart when you fell over in the snow as you were removing your boot?.... Because dude it sure sounded like you did, go back and listen 😂....ok I've reviewed it like 5 times now.., Totally it's a fart.
Cheers. And no!
@@AlexHibbertOriginals It was... the creaky snow, he thought, po-faced... 😀
12:00 are you using buck-boost voltage regulators, or something linear like an 7805? I only ask because linear regulators maintain constant current while dropping the voltage (IE, 12v 1a in, 5v 1a out, 7 watts lost as heat). Depending on your circumstances, I could see arguments where the waste heat is a good thing - but it does come at the expense of battery life (as a buck boost with 5v 1a output would be much closer to 12v 0.5a input).
Hi Paul - yep buck-boost, and somewhere between 85-95% efficient depending on who you believe.
Ice fishers gloves are solid rubber, flexible and waterproof. "Verkkokalastuskäsineet" is the keyword. Some have also insulation and work well below -20C.
Useful for a different purpose really. Here we need over-mitts, and the under-gloves kept dry from perspiration. And always nice when the Finns keep their words short and simple!
And neoprene socks are not mentioned either. Available at nearest scuba gear shop. They sort of cling to your skin, so there is no chafing.
And Of course there is the Finnish army way, namely toe rags. Because they are sheets they dry up fast. Using toe rags requires some learning, luckily there instructional videos, where the magic words are "Jalkarättien laittaminen",
@@AlexHibbertOriginals I meant as undermittens, instead some complex combo of many.
Again, neoprene is a difficult foam to dry out. I've found face-masks made from it take ages over direct heat to puff out their damp.
All sorts of other fabrics are ok for fishermen, lumberjacks etc and those working to and from heated tents, cabins or vehicles. But here we are aiming for as near to zero fabric moisture retention as possible.
It's worth also saying that some techniques are for a freeze-thaw cycle, like you get in the Nordics outside of deep winter or high summer. VBLs aren't used in these circumstances.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Neoprene does not get wet. Apropos -- it looks like the best multipurpose waterproof socks are made right there in UK by "Sealskinz". £38.00
what is your backcountry ski set-up with the baffens?...especially the bindings...thanks
I make my own bindings. Or use the UHMWPE ones from IceTrek. Skis - usually Fischer 99s.
🤙
8:37 That’s what she said
How much of a bigger size boot do you need for this system?
I tend to just go one size up, but it l depends on the boot brand.
I have always had problems with moisture in boots. That is an extremely hazardous situation in a survival situation.
Thr solution, that was recommended, that actually works are military-type black or white cold weather boots. Tbe insulation is behind rubber. It doesn't matter how much water that is in thr boots, the insulation stays dry.
Having a totally sealed insulation zone in a boot isn't a bad idea, but it doesn't solve the sock issue my video addresses.
Anybody have the ski pole camera video, can't find it?
It was just a mention before - no dedicated film of it. It's merely tripod mounts epoxied onto the tops.
Do Baffin boots do NNNBC boots
I think they do a 'guide' boot with a NNN fitting
@AlexHibbertOriginals hi Alex thanks for reply ah that's handy to know. What was the inner boot brand again please. And do you know how Baffin compares to Alfa ? Yours looked like they'd go colder ...
Inuition. Baffins are soft boot / mukluk style, totally different to rigid sole boots like Alfas. I've seen the latter rip people's feet to shreds, but Norwegians swear by them.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals thanks and that's interesting to know and food for thought
Do you know Chris Townsend? He's a friend I'll ask him about those boots and thar soft boot approach.
Do you take your half skins off at night?
I'm only just touching the tip of the iceberg with this stuff not even stood on skis yet but ordered some and wax. Do you use glide wax on glide zone of skis?
It's fascinating what you do and why lol I heard the maldives are warmer 😆
Your biggest mistake is the direction of travel, i would most definitely prefer equator, over Alaska
this isn't project Binky.
You're right.
If you're going to show your feet on UA-cam, you shouldn't be so gratuitous. You should put more ads. 😉🤣😂