The "and everybody clapped" scene makes me cringe every single time I watch this episode. I definitely consider this episode as an example (albeit a rare one) of JMS being hamfisted with his writing.
Oh, "praises the wisdom of its own position" is SUCH a pet peeve of mine. Right up there with "our main characters make harsh judgements about other people based on no evidence, and future events will prove they were 100% correct".
Well, the latter is the _show_ to the former's _tell._ Both are otherwise the same. (Yes, I similarly find it irritating. Mind, I have to notice it, and I suspect I sometimes find myself agreeing too hard to do so.)
Recently, I had a dream about confronting a bully I had in high school and it ended with me making an "inspiring" speech that got everyone clapping. Thankfully, it was just a dream, because I feel like I would have died of cringe if I did that IRL.
During that argument I found myself imaginging being Zack. I'd have pointed out that they're both being incredibly unfair. Garibaldi doesn't recognize that not everyone lived in a self sufficient space station to secede from. I'd then have blasted Lochley for acting like they seceded over policy disagreements as if they didn't like the new tax forms instead of, you know, seceding over the proven murder of the former president and the slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians. I guess it was realistic for both of them to make strawmen out of each others, but it didn't make for a very interesting watch.
Copying what I said to another in a comment about her knowledge, looking just at what was publicly reported and anyone there could see: Even assuming that all the stuff after Santiago's murder escaped her notice, that everything Psi-Corp did was hidden, and even a captain good enough to get Sheridan's approval honestly didn't know, there's no way she missed the public events that Clark pulled. There was S3 E09 where in response to the Senate investigating him, Clark declared martial law and used the military to arrest or kill his enemies. There was S3 E10 where Clark decided to bomb Mars for not obeying his orders, and then sent the military to take over the vaguely independent news for reporting that he was doing that. Or S4 E14-15 where military ships were sent to fire on civilian ships and planets. That's overthrowing the lawfully elected government in a blatant coup, murdering civilians for the crime of not accepting a coup, and killing and arresting reporters for the crime of just stating exactly what he did. And she's hiding behind "well I wasn't told to do it". That's even worse because in S3-4 there were officers who saw this and decided to openly turn against Clark. She didn't do anything herself, but she sure stood by, looked the other way, and provided a ship and leadership that freed up other people Clark could use to do his dirty work.
Personally I think Season 5 really picks up steam as soon as the whole telapath arc ends and we focus more on Londo's arc which I feel is one of the highlights of the series.
The corollary to Lockley's defence is that "I was just obeying orders" was not allowed as a defence at Nurnberg. Following orders you know are wrong and immoral and evil is not ever an acceptable choice.
Point there is they didn't even receive such orders. I am sure Clark or at least his goons made sure to know (especially after miscalculating to hard with captain Sherrypie) which ship and which captain can be pushed how far and those like Lockley on some places with less problematic mission description so it makes sense. But it's also the laziest, most boring one and something (pure speculation) that just feels like a last minute chicken-out change.
@@jankostrhun8725 I think she either knew something was very wrong and chose full ostrich mode, or if she truly didn't know that something was very wrong then she would be so stupid as to never have been promotable at all, much less to captain. I don't like either way. This video does at least present one possible alternative that she was treating both sides information as equal and then refused to pick, but honestly that still makes me feel like it would be a dereliction of duty not to pursue that type and level of allegation and find out the truth or falsity of it. Plus I still find it very hard to believe that Clark gave no orders to her or others. He was pulling out all the stops in the end. I cannot think of anywhere her ship could have been stationed where they would not have been ordered to take part. All the colonies were freed by Sheridan's forces and then all the way through to Earth, so even if they had just been told to guard some colony and nothing else they would have been attacked at some point. Maybe she could have been sent out on some really far out deep space patrol but they would have just said that. I think her answer indicates that she was not on such a mission. Unless she was ordered to guard a specific empty point in space for 2+ plus years that no one approached I can't see how she didn't get involved in some way, shape, or form. Unless...one thought just occurred to me, maybe she was captain of a tugboat or a ferry, but then that would be a bigger jump to lead B5 than even Sinclair. 😂
@@jankostrhun8725 I'm not the one you were speaking to, but as I see it there's no way she didn't know what was going on. Even assuming that all the stuff after Santiago's murder escaped her notice, that everything Psi-Corp did was hidden, and even a captain good enough to get Sheridan's approval honestly didn't know, there's no way she missed the public events that Clark pulled. There was S3 E09 where in response to the Senate investigating him, Clark declared martial law and used the military to arrest or kill his enemies. There was S3 E10 where Clark decided to bomb Mars for not obeying his orders, and then sent the military to take over the vaguely independent news for reporting that he was doing that. Or S4 E14-15 where military ships were sent to fire on civilian ships and planets. That's overthrowing the lawfully elected government in a blatant coup, murdering civilians for the crime of not accepting a coup, and killing and arresting reporters for the crime of just stating exactly what he did. And she's hiding behind "well I wasn't told to do it". That's even worse because in S3-4 there were officers who saw this and decided to openly turn against Clark. She didn't do anything herself, but she sure stood by, looked the other way, and provided a ship and leadership that freed up other people Clark could use to do his dirty work.
1:29 The blocking. If you're ever not sure what's wrong with a scene, take a step back, and look at how the scene is visually framed. Notice that the two in the background never really move save to step forward to keep themselves in shot, and they're moving awkwardly, like stepping to the side. The lighting hurts too, as the way it's framed, they should be turning their heads slightly to not be blinded by it, but then we couldn't see their faces.
It's been ... fifteen or so years since I've rewatched the series, but I remembered Learning Curve as one of my favorites, and it's for the flower scene. I guess I'd forgotten all the other stuff in it.
The villain for this episode was so laughably pathetic that I just couldn't care less. "Babylon 5 belongs to me! I'm so tough and strong! Grr!" What a loser.
They actually have good warranties and a help line designed to be straightforward and connect you to a person. They overran the interstellar economy within a year of joining it.
Chuck, when doing B5 don't forget the Lurkers Guide. Part of why old range seems odd. I guess he couldn't remember his lines and they had to use cue cards to help him out. But it likely killed the chemistry
1:13 Oh god no. It’s the late great Trevor Goddard of JAG. Fitting that the show started with a future Belsario Star and comes to an end with another in this season. 6:23 *Starts Clapping*
@@jamesabernethy7896 That was due to the J.A.G. tv show i think? People just loved that accent from him as he came of very arogant and pompous while doing it.
Honestly nothing about Lockley works for me. From small things like makeup to writing and general portrayal. I know Ivanova had much more time to settle into the role but that comparison is unavoidable and even early on had a certain bearing that helped her jumping over "pretty face in costume-uniform". Lockley looks like HR lady on some themed company event. But writing is obviously the big one and major part of it is how wasted the idea is. I am sure Clark or at least his goons made sure to know (especially after miscalculating to hard with captain Sherrypie) which ship and which captain can be pushed how far and those like Lockley on some places with less problematic mission description so it makes sense. But it's also the laziest, most boring one and something (pure speculation) that just feels like a last minute chicken-out change. Obviously you don't want your character to be active and willing participant in something like this (yes yes, Londo and know, but that's pretty different) but there are still other avenues to explore. Maybe she was captain or even just XO on a ship that was chalk full of Clark loyalists so any mutiny would be just her and ship's cook against most of the ship so only realistic option was to at least minimalize the damage. Just an example if you want to have "Clean" character and you can obviously go deeper into the grey area even without being willing participant (like just transporting soldiers and material that then turned entire rebel colony into concentration camp). But point is that this setup really makes her look like having a character who is a 'nam vet, like that's his whole thing in the story, and then you find out dude was sweeping floors in some Japanese depo. I mean, technically was in the army and served during Vietnamese war and was drafted because of it, but it's not really what most people have in mind, let alone all that interesting background to explore.
I think Scoggins is a decent enough actress, she performed some emotionally driven scenes, this being one of them. I do agree that the character of Lockley didn't fit into B5. Even if she was never given an illegal order at the time, any Commander worth their salt would have doubts. Even if those doubts didn't lead to actions at the time, there should be some soul-searching later. Takashima would have been a great choice if Tamlyn Tomita had come back... if she was even asked.
@@jamesabernethy7896 I am not necessarily commenting of the actresses acting chops but her delivery never really worked her for me here. Even that speech again felt more like irritable clerk at the office. It might have been general writing or just miscasting but it just never clicked, I was always watching an actor and never the cahracter. Yeah that' partially what I've meant later on. You can still contribute warcrimes without comiting some (the Mr. Pump explaining to Moist how many people he has on his conscience despite never killing anyone) but you know at least something. I know this is still a TV show but mutiny, desertion or flat out side flipping is as serious as it can get so I can't really blame someone for going through it with little to no tangible information (remember that even high ranking officers have very limited info about things that doesn't have to do directly with their little segment of the war). Because these things can backfire (the the 30 second mutiny in the Expanse). I'm not saying you can't do anything with the route they took but it seems like the most limiting and least interesting option. Apart from second guessing yourself only really interesting thing you can do might be perhaps confrontation with the crewmen from the anti-Clark ship she fought... if there is indeed such a ship, I can't recall the show having enough balls to even this level of info but that might be on me not really rewatching S5.
@@jankostrhun8725 That's how many people Mr. Pump blames Moist for killing, not how many people are on Moist's conscience. Part of the reason Moist was able to do what he did is because (rightly or wrongly) those people _weren't_ on his conscience.
I've said this elsewhere - season 5 of B5 is a lot like season 7 of TNG - they ran out of ideas. The decision to resolve the Earth Civil War arc in season 4 ended up biting JMS in the ass.
@@MrSaywutnow That's definitely not it. They had lots of ideas, most of them introduced in the season before. The post war reconstruction, the discomfort between the rebels and the people who stayed loyal to Clark, the telepath war, the fall of Centauri Prime. There were entire seasons of ideas. What they didn't have was time to make them work.
@@gargamellenoir8460 It's a combination of things not getting a chance to gel with ideas transplanted from earlier in the story that were forced out by the rushed not-an-ending. The telepath story line is a very obvious example of something that was almost certainly originally part of the Terran Civil War but was mostly excised until season five.
@@MrSaywutnow They didn't "decide" to end the civil war in S4, it was supposed to be S5. Their network was announced as getting closed down as S4 started, so they had no S5 in place. An 11th hour deal with TNT got them S5 just before S4 wrapped.
The "and everybody clapped" scene makes me cringe every single time I watch this episode.
I definitely consider this episode as an example (albeit a rare one) of JMS being hamfisted with his writing.
Oh, "praises the wisdom of its own position" is SUCH a pet peeve of mine. Right up there with "our main characters make harsh judgements about other people based on no evidence, and future events will prove they were 100% correct".
Oh, that one is _really_ irritating, too!
Well, the latter is the _show_ to the former's _tell._ Both are otherwise the same.
(Yes, I similarly find it irritating. Mind, I have to notice it, and I suspect I sometimes find myself agreeing too hard to do so.)
Recently, I had a dream about confronting a bully I had in high school and it ended with me making an "inspiring" speech that got everyone clapping.
Thankfully, it was just a dream, because I feel like I would have died of cringe if I did that IRL.
During that argument I found myself imaginging being Zack. I'd have pointed out that they're both being incredibly unfair. Garibaldi doesn't recognize that not everyone lived in a self sufficient space station to secede from. I'd then have blasted Lochley for acting like they seceded over policy disagreements as if they didn't like the new tax forms instead of, you know, seceding over the proven murder of the former president and the slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians.
I guess it was realistic for both of them to make strawmen out of each others, but it didn't make for a very interesting watch.
0:40
You? A nerd? I never would have guessed! You hide it so well, Star Trek reviewer on the internet.
Copying what I said to another in a comment about her knowledge, looking just at what was publicly reported and anyone there could see:
Even assuming that all the stuff after Santiago's murder escaped her notice, that everything Psi-Corp did was hidden, and even a captain good enough to get Sheridan's approval honestly didn't know, there's no way she missed the public events that Clark pulled.
There was S3 E09 where in response to the Senate investigating him, Clark declared martial law and used the military to arrest or kill his enemies. There was S3 E10 where Clark decided to bomb Mars for not obeying his orders, and then sent the military to take over the vaguely independent news for reporting that he was doing that. Or S4 E14-15 where military ships were sent to fire on civilian ships and planets.
That's overthrowing the lawfully elected government in a blatant coup, murdering civilians for the crime of not accepting a coup, and killing and arresting reporters for the crime of just stating exactly what he did. And she's hiding behind "well I wasn't told to do it". That's even worse because in S3-4 there were officers who saw this and decided to openly turn against Clark.
She didn't do anything herself, but she sure stood by, looked the other way, and provided a ship and leadership that freed up other people Clark could use to do his dirty work.
Personally I think Season 5 really picks up steam as soon as the whole telapath arc ends and we focus more on Londo's arc which I feel is one of the highlights of the series.
Honestly, if Lochley had give your argument, I would have been alot more sympathetic for her watching it originally.
Chuck's defense being better than the actual writing of the episode...that tracks.
The corollary to Lockley's defence is that "I was just obeying orders" was not allowed as a defence at Nurnberg.
Following orders you know are wrong and immoral and evil is not ever an acceptable choice.
Point there is they didn't even receive such orders.
I am sure Clark or at least his goons made sure to know (especially after miscalculating to hard with captain Sherrypie) which ship and which captain can be pushed how far and those like Lockley on some places with less problematic mission description so it makes sense. But it's also the laziest, most boring one and something (pure speculation) that just feels like a last minute chicken-out change.
@@jankostrhun8725the problem I have with that is it requires Lockley and others to either be mind numbingly stupid or willfully ignorant. 🤔
@@cpmf2112 In what sense exactly?
@@jankostrhun8725 I think she either knew something was very wrong and chose full ostrich mode, or if she truly didn't know that something was very wrong then she would be so stupid as to never have been promotable at all, much less to captain.
I don't like either way. This video does at least present one possible alternative that she was treating both sides information as equal and then refused to pick, but honestly that still makes me feel like it would be a dereliction of duty not to pursue that type and level of allegation and find out the truth or falsity of it.
Plus I still find it very hard to believe that Clark gave no orders to her or others. He was pulling out all the stops in the end. I cannot think of anywhere her ship could have been stationed where they would not have been ordered to take part.
All the colonies were freed by Sheridan's forces and then all the way through to Earth, so even if they had just been told to guard some colony and nothing else they would have been attacked at some point. Maybe she could have been sent out on some really far out deep space patrol but they would have just said that. I think her answer indicates that she was not on such a mission. Unless she was ordered to guard a specific empty point in space for 2+ plus years that no one approached I can't see how she didn't get involved in some way, shape, or form.
Unless...one thought just occurred to me, maybe she was captain of a tugboat or a ferry, but then that would be a bigger jump to lead B5 than even Sinclair. 😂
@@jankostrhun8725 I'm not the one you were speaking to, but as I see it there's no way she didn't know what was going on. Even assuming that all the stuff after Santiago's murder escaped her notice, that everything Psi-Corp did was hidden, and even a captain good enough to get Sheridan's approval honestly didn't know, there's no way she missed the public events that Clark pulled.
There was S3 E09 where in response to the Senate investigating him, Clark declared martial law and used the military to arrest or kill his enemies. There was S3 E10 where Clark decided to bomb Mars for not obeying his orders, and then sent the military to take over the vaguely independent news for reporting that he was doing that. Or S4 E14-15 where military ships were sent to fire on civilian ships and planets.
That's overthrowing the lawfully elected government in a blatant coup, murdering civilians for the crime of not accepting a coup, and killing and arresting reporters for the crime of just stating exactly what he did. And she's hiding behind "well I wasn't told to do it". That's even worse because in S3-4 there were officers who saw this and decided to openly turn against Clark.
She didn't do anything herself, but she sure stood by, looked the other way, and provided a ship and leadership that freed up other people Clark could use to do his dirty work.
1:29
The blocking. If you're ever not sure what's wrong with a scene, take a step back, and look at how the scene is visually framed. Notice that the two in the background never really move save to step forward to keep themselves in shot, and they're moving awkwardly, like stepping to the side. The lighting hurts too, as the way it's framed, they should be turning their heads slightly to not be blinded by it, but then we couldn't see their faces.
It's been ... fifteen or so years since I've rewatched the series, but I remembered Learning Curve as one of my favorites, and it's for the flower scene. I guess I'd forgotten all the other stuff in it.
The villain for this episode was so laughably pathetic that I just couldn't care less.
"Babylon 5 belongs to me! I'm so tough and strong! Grr!"
What a loser.
The Pak Marah (or however you spell that) must be REALLY good traders if they can do it so well despite refusing to speak anyone else's language.
They actually have good warranties and a help line designed to be straightforward and connect you to a person. They overran the interstellar economy within a year of joining it.
I was pleasantly surprised to not see a guest spot on The Bill or Lovejoy as thug number one on the gentleman's IMDB credits.
Chuck, when doing B5 don't forget the Lurkers Guide. Part of why old range seems odd. I guess he couldn't remember his lines and they had to use cue cards to help him out. But it likely killed the chemistry
1:13 Oh god no. It’s the late great Trevor Goddard of JAG. Fitting that the show started with a future Belsario Star and comes to an end with another in this season.
6:23 *Starts Clapping*
Last time I saw that one guy he was getting his neck snapped by Sonya Blade.
Trevor Goddard when you need a cartoonishly evil character he will chew the scenery at every moment.
Sadly he passed away before his prime at 41.
He used an Aussie accent for most of his roles but he was actually from London.
@@jamesabernethy7896 That was due to the J.A.G. tv show i think? People just loved that accent from him as he came of very arogant and pompous while doing it.
But he's got heart...that he ate for lunch
Honestly nothing about Lockley works for me. From small things like makeup to writing and general portrayal. I know Ivanova had much more time to settle into the role but that comparison is unavoidable and even early on had a certain bearing that helped her jumping over "pretty face in costume-uniform". Lockley looks like HR lady on some themed company event.
But writing is obviously the big one and major part of it is how wasted the idea is.
I am sure Clark or at least his goons made sure to know (especially after miscalculating to hard with captain Sherrypie) which ship and which captain can be pushed how far and those like Lockley on some places with less problematic mission description so it makes sense. But it's also the laziest, most boring one and something (pure speculation) that just feels like a last minute chicken-out change.
Obviously you don't want your character to be active and willing participant in something like this (yes yes, Londo and know, but that's pretty different) but there are still other avenues to explore. Maybe she was captain or even just XO on a ship that was chalk full of Clark loyalists so any mutiny would be just her and ship's cook against most of the ship so only realistic option was to at least minimalize the damage. Just an example if you want to have "Clean" character and you can obviously go deeper into the grey area even without being willing participant (like just transporting soldiers and material that then turned entire rebel colony into concentration camp).
But point is that this setup really makes her look like having a character who is a 'nam vet, like that's his whole thing in the story, and then you find out dude was sweeping floors in some Japanese depo. I mean, technically was in the army and served during Vietnamese war and was drafted because of it, but it's not really what most people have in mind, let alone all that interesting background to explore.
I think Scoggins is a decent enough actress, she performed some emotionally driven scenes, this being one of them. I do agree that the character of Lockley didn't fit into B5. Even if she was never given an illegal order at the time, any Commander worth their salt would have doubts. Even if those doubts didn't lead to actions at the time, there should be some soul-searching later. Takashima would have been a great choice if Tamlyn Tomita had come back... if she was even asked.
@@jamesabernethy7896 I am not necessarily commenting of the actresses acting chops but her delivery never really worked her for me here. Even that speech again felt more like irritable clerk at the office. It might have been general writing or just miscasting but it just never clicked, I was always watching an actor and never the cahracter.
Yeah that' partially what I've meant later on. You can still contribute warcrimes without comiting some (the Mr. Pump explaining to Moist how many people he has on his conscience despite never killing anyone) but you know at least something.
I know this is still a TV show but mutiny, desertion or flat out side flipping is as serious as it can get so I can't really blame someone for going through it with little to no tangible information (remember that even high ranking officers have very limited info about things that doesn't have to do directly with their little segment of the war). Because these things can backfire (the the 30 second mutiny in the Expanse).
I'm not saying you can't do anything with the route they took but it seems like the most limiting and least interesting option.
Apart from second guessing yourself only really interesting thing you can do might be perhaps confrontation with the crewmen from the anti-Clark ship she fought... if there is indeed such a ship, I can't recall the show having enough balls to even this level of info but that might be on me not really rewatching S5.
@@jankostrhun8725 That's how many people Mr. Pump blames Moist for killing, not how many people are on Moist's conscience. Part of the reason Moist was able to do what he did is because (rightly or wrongly) those people _weren't_ on his conscience.
Season 5 does not exist.
It was weird and bad.
Why did you do this to us?
I've said this elsewhere - season 5 of B5 is a lot like season 7 of TNG - they ran out of ideas.
The decision to resolve the Earth Civil War arc in season 4 ended up biting JMS in the ass.
@@MrSaywutnow That's definitely not it. They had lots of ideas, most of them introduced in the season before. The post war reconstruction, the discomfort between the rebels and the people who stayed loyal to Clark, the telepath war, the fall of Centauri Prime. There were entire seasons of ideas. What they didn't have was time to make them work.
Don't blame Chuck - blame patron Emperor Michael Hardy.
@@gargamellenoir8460 It's a combination of things not getting a chance to gel with ideas transplanted from earlier in the story that were forced out by the rushed not-an-ending. The telepath story line is a very obvious example of something that was almost certainly originally part of the Terran Civil War but was mostly excised until season five.
@@MrSaywutnow They didn't "decide" to end the civil war in S4, it was supposed to be S5. Their network was announced as getting closed down as S4 started, so they had no S5 in place. An 11th hour deal with TNT got them S5 just before S4 wrapped.