the problem is that, just like it is with old tuning videos, it will probably be out of date in a year or two as betaflight is being developed continuously
@18:19 in the video, I think there is an argument that a slightly under-damped tune will feel the best. The quad will reach the setpoint faster, and the tiny bit of overshoot will not be noticeable, practically speaking. Every time I've tried to do a tune that hit the ideal "critically damped" response, the tune felt more "fragile" in that small changes in the setup would push the tune out of the critically damped region. I just felt I liked the slightly under-damped feel better. I guess what I would say is, given the choice between under-damped and over-damped, I would err towards under-damped. Especially because it's difficult to tell the difference between critically damped and over-damped when looking at real world data.
@@Font_University I totally agree 💯!!! After watching the video and then reading the comments from each of the “Three Amigos” would make a SUPER VIDEO… I’m glad I didn’t skip reading through the comment section! Should be required reading!! 👍👍
@@Font_University I agree, the amount of knowledge between those Three is insane. JB could do a livestream on Thursdays, with Chris and Mark, Tech Thursdays, that goes into tuning and building with a FINE tooth comb. Maybe once a month so jb has a couple nights off a week at least haha.
You are the only one doing PowerPoint slides on FPV on UA-cam in 2021 and I love you for that. Haha. Great content and I love the way you have simplified the understanding of PID. For someone like me that has studied a lot of maths, your approach is pretty entertaining!
Thank you for this Chris! Would love to see a video on ESC tuning. Demag, PWM freq, motor timing, ramp-up power etc etc. would love to see how all that stuff fits in to all of this.
I would be interested in such content but rather from a knowledge aspect because from my testing I did not find ESC settings to have that much of an impact. And without any means of measuring thrust or smoothness it is difficult to find the settings that are best for your specific quad and purpose.
Thank you for providing a mid 2021 state of the art step by step tuning guide! If you watch through the UAV tech videos of the past years already, most of that reveals itself to you... and I'm sure that's what you have been doing too.. but having that all in this compact form is absolutely amazing! And you added a few things I didn't actually know yet: Use that master slider for D-Term (definitely gonna try that), use a fixed low pass on D as biquad (I found a high dynamic LP setting that worked wonders, but still have D-Term noise... so gonna try that too!), use the correct templates for BBL (ooof, I probably just picked the wrong file out of that folder ;D). Also I never could really figure out what these PID terms really do and that wiki-article kinda started tooo high in the maths for me to decipher. Really great explanation on how these are calculated and what they actually do! Thanks for that part! - high i gains are indeed fascinating - just got and tested my babyhawk II HD today, stock tuning has I in the 150s (P&D around 55) which felt quite weird to me but I gave it a try on stock tune and it handles surprisingly well and prop wash handling is superb - even though it doesn't come with rpm filtering. That was quite surprising. Might try this on my other quads too. - agreed on the PD Balance Slider - how many of us are suffering from this? I really hope this is fixed soon. - I think the slight over- vs. underdampening comes really down to the actual feel you want that quad to have. I bet this could at some point in the future be similar to sports mode and comfort mode of a car - the underdampening will make the quad feel very agile and responsive - so best for freestyle and racing, the overdampening makes it more behaved, feeling bigger and slower - I think for cinematic shooting this might be the better choice also to the part of jello in the video that actually comes from these overshooting events - what do you think? A few wishes I have for further vids: - provide real examples of how an overtuned quad sounds and how you distinguish a well sounding motor from one with to much D-Term/D-Term Oscillations - many who start in that hobby use cheaper bind & fly's without propper logging. (thank you OpenLager for existing, though :D). Also Mark made a vid where he got the D just right at the point where he could hear oscillations, but it wasn't quite distinguishable in the video... This would really be something great to listen to before tuning a quad in real life. - example-footage of how you do your testflights would be cool - and then looking at the logs. I think I know what to do but... sometimes you just think you understood a description while in real life you are messing it all up - completely unkowingly ;D - All my quads overshoot in snap jaw-turns even if setpoint tracking is pretty good on the roll and pitch. Is that a normal behaviour? On the other axis you would add D to the mix which supposedly isn't existing on Yaw. How does your AOS 5 behave in this discipline? What's a good behaviour here and how do you get there?
These video series are a must see for anybody that's in the FPV hobby flying quadcopters! Thanks for your hard work Chris! Very informative & educational guide to tunning ! Just what I needed 😀
best explanation of how a PID works I've found on the internet. I don't own a drone, but your explanation is outstanding and I think I finally have it figured out. Thanks!
A clean aos-5 build makes tuning a breeze. My new daily driver, just ordered a second frame. Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful contributions to the hobby Chris.
This guy is a beast engineer. Huge thanks for this amazing explanation, your teaching methods are super easy to comprehend and this adds a lot of valuable knowledge to this community. Great work Chris!
Love this thank you! It's been a mission to tune the 3 inch Cinewhoop and the 8 inch Cinelifter and have tried to grasp the concept of tuning by reading the Blackbox.. but it's like hieroglyphics. Loads of us need this. Thanks again!
JB can learn from your teaching method, the visualizations and support text effort are really making you one of the best To go to! Just add 2 minutes of flying every video, just for aesthetic en entertainment, and you are the next biggest quad Guru out there!
Chris's visualizations and teaching style are fantastic. Because of the large number of videos that I publish (including livestreams, between 5 and 7 videos a week, for nearly four years running), it's often not possible to put as much time into each individual video as Chris does. A lot of my earlier videos were more academic and involved slide shows and diagrams, but with guys like Chris and Mark Spatz making amazing academic content, I have focused more on practical problem solving. My "visual aids" these days are more likely to be a quadcopter on the bench or a screen recording of a Betaflight menu.
Everyone has their niche. I feel like I'm doing more academic content and theory where PowerPoint graphics and text are more appropriate. When I need to get something configured properly I search JBs channel, his step by steps are the best in the business for getting your hardware set up and working.
@@ChrisRosser He became a guru by time, you become a guru by plan. Just saying that you could use some of JB's '' fun stuff'' and he could use some more charts and graphics. Both phenomenal drone content makers! I meant no offense, just some positive reinforcement !
That worked really well. I have a severely underpowered quad I like to fly but has always been horrible. I wasnt as aggressive with the filters but through your process figure out the D was half of what it needed to be. Incredible difference thanks
thanks you kris just a great tuto i learned how to tune a quad with facility (i dont now anyfing about tuning beefore) and i like so much the nice power point to explain all the fing perfectly you make very great video 👍👍
The rate at which you are producing high quality videos is amazing. Thank you. I will definitely try the "D first" approach with tuning. I like it because it is robust meaning that you end up with a better tune than before even if you stop your tuning session midway (bad weather, no more batteries, ...).
Awesome video!! I have been flying on the stock betaflight tune and am a beginner 5 inch pilot and this video really helps me understand PID tuning a little more.
Between this and @UAV Tech one pack slider tune video, my quads have never flown so well! Thank you both for distilling this down to something straight forward and practical.
Hi @Chris Rosser this guide is still valid on Betaflight 4.4 ? I prefer this guide over the new one you have released because i think this is more "pilot based" and i can do it on the filed using betaflight osd or EdgeTx betaflight lua script. Thank you for your answer 🙏
this is 🔥🔥🔥 My 800g thiccboi porker Titan XL5 have never flown better than after following these tips on tuning filters and PIDs! Thank you Chris! Now I just need to get good at flying 😜
Great video again mate.. Anyone changing 'pidsum limit' who uses more than one PID profile should make sure it has changed for said profiles in the CLI. My Change only affected profile zero. Fly high guys!
WOW MY QUAD FLIES AMAZING!! THANKYOU SO MUCH CHRIS!! i thought this tuning lark was all hype..i been running stock pids for a few years....i feel like i robbed myself lol
Thanks again Chris! I always put off fine-tuning my fleet at the bottom of my list until you started making this easy to follow series. I also ordered your frame and can't wait to build it. Bring on the final vid!11
Perhaps a career as a professor is not a bad idea, a very intensive and extensive explanation about something that still requires quite a bit of attention!
Great explanation! Thanks a lot :) Did I understand it right, following your filter/tuning recommendation gives the quad a very good performance, but still leaves some room in case of new props/badly bent props or if I don't mount a gopro (tuning with mounted gopro)? Or should I be afraid of smoking motors?
Great videos! Thank you for going through this. It does seem like all of this can and should be automated somehow in order to get a very precise tune. All of the data is there that can be fed into an automated tool. I remember in the early days of arducopter a self tune feature was developed where the FC would command/read/adjust.
Hi Chris, I have some questions for you. First, do higher kv motors have better PID handling/ are they easier to tune? My thinking is more power means the quad can respond to PID errors quicker. Second, if the previous is true, could (for example) having 1950kv motors with a throttle limit that mimics the feel of a 1750kv motor mean that a pilot could have the throttle feel that they would prefer while also having superior PID control? The reason I ask is I currently run a 2550kv motor with a motor output limit of 70%. But if I could raise that to 75% and have a throttle limit of 5%, I wonder if the quad would indeed fly better. I tested this myself, but frankly, I don't feel a difference. Perhaps there is a difference, but at my skill level, I can't tell. I don't have blackbox logging, so maybe you could see whether there truly is a difference or not. Looking forward to your response. Whether I'm right or wrong, it will be fascinating to hear what you have to say
Could you do a video on how to tune both PIDs and filters on a a 65mm whoop? The listening for bounce-back is super useful but it'd be great to see an example and also some insight on how to choose which filters to run and filter settings since whoops are so popular and lots of people are swapping to higher KV motors so the stock tune/filter often no longer works well.
Sorry for the dumb question. What do "rough" motors sound like? I am currently tuning my AOS 5 and am not sure if I have pushed the PID master slider to high? At 2.0 the motors are warm to the touch, but I would like to know if I should be listening for issues with the motors at that agressive a tune. Thanks
I just built a quad, so should I start with your filtering video first? It was a Frankenstein of a build, fc and parts from other quads. Input would be great. Thanks for the vids.
Chris, I have a question. Does it matter if you tune rates before PID's? For example, I prefer quite "slow" rates, so even a full stick deflection produces sorta slow responce. So according to my logic we should get different PID's for different rates, am I right here?
Your PIDs affect how your rates feel. So we always go filters, PIDs, rates in that order so we don't have to go back and repeat steps. If you do rates first then tune PIDs you will need to go back and adjust rates because they may feel different after.
Hi Chris,thanks for you videos!! , I have a doubt , at 33:01 , to much FF (overshoot) what the quad actually do ? can you be more especify , “example “ thanks in advance “
I've got another question Chris. On BLHELI 32, which do you recommend on pwm frequency, 24 or 48? I've always used 24. I saw a video talking from Joshua and another person talking about 24 and 48. It was from a 2019 video. They recommended 48. I still would like to know your thoughts on this. And also, why would you recommend that number. Thank you in advance!
I'm sure you've heard if not had this question. Could we have 2 or more filter/pid profiles based on raw noise from our gyro? So if bend a prop it can switch to a more conservative pid tune? Say to fly home or finish a race? I'm sure I'm not the only pilot that clips a turn and is going to finish the race or break something no in between.
I am glad I found your channel, it taught me lots and lots about tuning and frame design. As I am currently designing a frame for a sub-250 class drone it is very useful. I have lots of mavic mini motors as I am repairing dji drones and I wanted to build a microlongrange style quad that has mavic mini motors and I can put a naked gopro on top. For weeks I cannot tune it properly and I am not sure why. The frame has side stiffeners and in the BBE I can see no excessive vibrations. However I cannot tune it properly, it wobbles a LOT when flying. I wont give up and in a few days I will try this approach of tuning, maybe it helps. Is there a way of consultation if I run out of ideas? :)
Hi Chris, just want to thank you for bringing some "engineering" and "Science" into this hobby. I do watch other FPV channels where many are intuition or experience-based. However, I find your videos more than informative. I managed to do my first PID tune (understand what I'm doing and knowing what I expect) for the first time! Keep up the good work! Also, I m wondering if there another way than Patreon to support the channel? I am pretty sure there are some viewers among the 10k who prefer a once-off contribution! Thanks again!
I'm glad you enjoy the channel. If you'd like to support in a different way then you could consider the AOS 5 frame which I designed. aos-rc.com lots of people who've bought one say it's the best flying frame they have.
So filters have to be done firts and pid after filters are set?? Chris with this video I had learned more about pid tunnig than for the last 3 years thanks
So this video says "even without blackbox". But at the beginning you say one needs to go through your filter tuning video first for the first 3 steps. In that video, you depend on blackbox data. So how to proceed?
Thanks Chris, your vids have been making my quads fly a lot better! I have a 2.5" build that I fly in various configurations; open props, prop guards, 2s 3s, and sometimes with a SMO/naked gopro, or a 360Go camera. My question is, when adding weight to a quad like this, what settings should I focus on when tuning to compensate for the added weight? Also Because this quad can fly in so many combinations of setups, is there a way to have more than just 3 profiles in betaflight? Or should i just save a different DIFF for each setup? Thanks!
@@ChrisRosser so should I just up my master gain slider when adding the extra weight? Or Just Re-Tune all together? I don't like tuning with the expensive camera on if I crash or get a weird launch from takeoff. I may just 3d print a dummy camera for tuning...
Great video! I like how well prepared your content is. PowerPoint might sound boring, but for this kind of educational video it's easier to follow and understand as if you'd just speak to the cam. Maybe I'll finnally get my copters tuned properly and see if it affects my ability to rip more aggressively thru the spots ;)
I find that a tight tune really helps with my confidence. I'm not worried about propwash and I feel like the quad will 'be there' when I need to make a quick correction to dodge a branch. I hope you enjoy your tuned quads even more!
12:23 this seems like also a good chart for if you have multiple pid modes set up fly high d, but turn right down if you crash, before flying back and inspecting
Yes. Absolutely, that's what I recommend for people who fly high D gain. Have a second profile with stock filters and PIDs to fly home on if you crash 👍
Hey, great vid - thank you. But I have troubles with one thing: in the title you mention that your method works "even without blackbox" but in the intro you reference your filter video in which you rely on balckbox logs. So my question is: What would be your recommendation for tuning a whoop which often (most times) do not have a possibility of logging? Do you have any recommendation for properly setting up filters "blindly"?
@@ChrisRosser Alright, thank you - that is basically what I have been doing till now: Enable bi-directionsl DSHOT for RPM filtering - leave the PIDs at default set dynamic notch width to 0 and see how far I can move the filter sliders to the right until I get hot motors or oscillations. In your filtering video you disable a lot of filters in favor of the RPM filter - what would be your recommendation of order in which to disable the filters?
I'm trying to use your approach with a 3 inch kwad. What difference should I expect in term on Filtering and PID. ? Thank a lot for your video you, UAVtech and JB are opening my mind one video at a time !
Just brainstorming, could it be theoretically possible to do logging through BetaFlight OSD, recording the footage on goggles and extracting that with a special tool from the video stream. Maybe using the first x lines/columns of the video feed?
Hi Chris. Thank you very much for the amazing video series. Because of your viedeos I am currently on a deeep dive into quad tuning :-) - and I love it. At 16:18 you talk about enabling iterm relax. Which are the settings you can recommend? What do the values exactly mean and how do they change the behaviour of the quad? # get iterm_relax iterm_relax = RP profile 0 Allowed values: OFF, RP, RPY, RP_INC, RPY_INC iterm_relax_type = SETPOINT profile 0 Allowed values: GYRO, SETPOINT iterm_relax_cutoff = 15 profile 0 Allowed range: 1 - 50 Thank you very much.
Hi Chris, first of all thank you for this incredible series of videos. I would like to ask you a couple of small clarifications: 1) When checking for max D-term and then for PD balance, the "Stick Response Gain" slider shall be in the center position on 1.0 or shall I turn it to 0.0 on the leftmost position ? What about feedforward transition ? 2) Is there any particular BLHeli32 / BLHeliS setting that you recomend before this tuning procedure ? Thank you in advance!!
Thanks Chris for this awesome approach, my quad flies amazing, but I still have a small problem: I turned the master-slider all the way up to 2.0 and still had cool motors and no wobbles or funny behavior. I followed all the steps before, but what I cant get rid of, is bounceback on the pitch axis on full stick flips, any suggestions? I have to say, that I fly a pretty heavy quad, beacuse I carry a Hero 9.
I think you are right. But I do think that having the rates correctly matching your 'muscle memory' will be the most beneficial even with untuned default PID values. I grew up flying airplanes and favour the IMAC/F3A style flying (I am also quite old for a multicopter pilot) and therefor have deeply embedded muscle memory. I hate it when the quad does not move with speed that matches my expectations in relation to my stick movement.
This is interesting. I've been following Mark Spatz general guide, but with build I know will have low authority I've been upping the master slider first before starting PD balance.
I like cranking up the master slider first because it makes bounceback and overshoot easier to hear and see in the logs. It gets sooo much sharper and louder with all the gains turned up. Helps a bunch with tuning PD balance!
Hi Chris. Do you think this method of tuning is appropriate for 1s 3inch toothpicks? (babytooth from kababfpv) I followed this without black-box, unfortunately. The babytooth seems to fly ok with the filter settings you suggested for clean builds. I did manage to get some amazing flight feel following this guide but cant seem to tune out oscillations in snap movements. Snap yawing also causes wobbling outside of the yaw axis too and motor 3 seems to dip. This issue does not occur on kababfpv's suggested pids though
Tuning without balckbox is very tricky. Filter settings should be OK if you're using my recommended settings. As for PIDs I would start with kababs recommended. If you want to go more agressive just multiply all values by 1.1. That will keep the ratios the same. If that is good multiply all by 1.1 and keep repeating until you see osciallations then step back.
Hello Chris, First of All THANK YOU for sharing this master piece, very usefull!!!! Also i would like to ask you a question: Since the last release of BF there is no "D min" to turn off. Do i need to turn off something else or is it fine like that? Thank you in advance for your help. Best
Really good video. In 31.05 Somekind of dilemma adding some ff or P. Because too much P slightly feel likely add of rate and too much ff much more likely turbo rate during full roll. Please advice. 🙏
If your PIDs are well tuned then flight feel is controlled by your rates only. Don't tune your PIDs based on feel just get the tracking good then adjust rates to get the best feel. 👍
Great video, thanks for sharing your thoughts. In my experience higher I-Term produces a "stiff" flight feeling. Additionally on HD cruising flights it sometimes produces windup wich give me a "pumping" HD video. It depends on what motor I use for a quad, I found week motors to be more sensitive to this.
Chris I'm curious about how hot a motor can be after a flight and still be safe? On your AOS5 are your motors cold or are they pretty warm but still able to keep your fingers on them without discomfort? I'd really like to know an exact temp (i.e. 150F for example) for what is a safe temp.
If you can hold the motor for as long as you want its definitely less than 60C (based on ISO60601 skin contact temperatures) and that's fine. On my AOS 5 the motors only get very slightly warm even with no dynamic notch and D gains of 55.
Hey Chris’s, what are your thoughts about hybrid frames? Like running in den front 5 inch arms and on the back 6 inch arms but still using 5 inch props. For the cleaner air. Do you think this is good or just a Mythos ?
Making arms longer than they need to be is not great from a vibration standpoint so I would need to see significant evidence of improvement to recommend that approach.
Hey Chris I really love your videos and I'm doing my best to follow along and implement things into my tune but I'm having an issue. I have your aos 5.5 frame with fpvcycle 25mm motors and everything is clean and no vibes on stock bf 4.2.9 but anytime I do a snap flip front or back on the pitch axis the quad wigs out and does a violent flutter sound and the quad doesn't want to do snappy front or backflips.. I get over or undershooting or bounceback it seems like... any ideas what I can do?? My favorite move is the juicy Flick and I can't seem to do it with the aos but if I drop the same stack and motors ect in my other frames it flies great... I'm at a loss
Yes. You may get a slightly cleaner trace with FF off. If you leave FF at default and increase the master slider FF is often low enough not to bother pidtoolbox in my experience. In my fine tuning video I advise FF to zero before tuning PD because it's a fine tune.
Really nice video! Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the D-term isn't based on the Pid-error. It's just based on the gyro. That's why the D doesn't interact at the beginning at sharp inputs(even without fast setpoint-tracking when the Pid-error is high) . ✌️
Chris, how does an advanced RC link like ELRS or Ghost interact with stick response gain and feed forward? For example, with ELRS @ 500hz I have my ff_sp_interpolate = on and my smoothing factor set to 40. On stock pids and min filter sliders the quad is very locked in and I feel very little latency in the controls. Does stick response gain still need to be increased in this instance?
@@ChrisRosser any chance we could get an update when it all works out? As I'm really looking forward to buying your frame. Literally no other frame interests me as much as this one, not even close. Keep up the awesome work, friend! And thanks for your reply!
I've said it before; but worth repeating. The best, easiest to understand and follow, good guide to quadcopters. You need to write a book 🙂
the problem is that, just like it is with old tuning videos, it will probably be out of date in a year or two as betaflight is being developed continuously
@@pgmcr5413 My 4.3 Guide is already underway. I've got you covered.
@@ChrisRosser Thank you so much for your works 🤗
Easiest way to tune " Switch to KISS" click a preset, done!
@18:19 in the video, I think there is an argument that a slightly under-damped tune will feel the best. The quad will reach the setpoint faster, and the tiny bit of overshoot will not be noticeable, practically speaking. Every time I've tried to do a tune that hit the ideal "critically damped" response, the tune felt more "fragile" in that small changes in the setup would push the tune out of the critically damped region. I just felt I liked the slightly under-damped feel better. I guess what I would say is, given the choice between under-damped and over-damped, I would err towards under-damped. Especially because it's difficult to tell the difference between critically damped and over-damped when looking at real world data.
I agree with this too. In my experience, the quad feels better in the air with an under damped tune.
Agreed JB. Like if having a plane balanced. Make sure a little noise heavy if erroring one way or another. In this case, error toward Under Damped.
Cool to have all three masters(JB, UAVt and Chris) active in this comment section. You guys should make a video together.
@@Font_University I totally agree 💯!!! After watching the video and then reading the comments from each of the “Three Amigos” would make a SUPER VIDEO… I’m glad I didn’t skip reading through the comment section! Should be required reading!! 👍👍
@@Font_University I agree, the amount of knowledge between those Three is insane. JB could do a livestream on Thursdays, with Chris and Mark, Tech Thursdays, that goes into tuning and building with a FINE tooth comb. Maybe once a month so jb has a couple nights off a week at least haha.
You are the only one doing PowerPoint slides on FPV on UA-cam in 2021 and I love you for that. Haha.
Great content and I love the way you have simplified the understanding of PID. For someone like me that has studied a lot of maths, your approach is pretty entertaining!
Wow, I finally feel like I have a grasp on this pid crap. You are a natural teacher! Thanks!
This is the best explanation of Betaflight PID tuning that I have seen so far. Good work.
Glad it was helpful!
That's very clear explanation about PID I've ever seen yet.... 🔥
This is what I've been looking for for three years, and here it is. Thank you very much.
Your last video on setting up filters was also very helpful😊.
This kind of explanation I haven’t seen neither during college, you’re simply the best teacher! Thank you for all!!
Thank you for this Chris! Would love to see a video on ESC tuning. Demag, PWM freq, motor timing, ramp-up power etc etc. would love to see how all that stuff fits in to all of this.
I'll add it to the list. So much content so little time!
I would be interested in such content but rather from a knowledge aspect because from my testing I did not find ESC settings to have that much of an impact. And without any means of measuring thrust or smoothness it is difficult to find the settings that are best for your specific quad and purpose.
Great video! This level of detail is superb and very easy to follow. BTW my AOS 5 is really super clean! I think it’s gonna be my go-to frame. Thx
I'm only at step 4 but my quad has already improved a lot!
Thank you so much. It's very much appreciated!
Great to hear!
Thanks Chris, nobody explained those teams as clearly and easy to understand as you. You are my new idol.
You're very welcome!
This is the most systematic and methodical PID tuning guide that I have seen. Well done 👍😀
Wow, thanks!
Thank you for providing a mid 2021 state of the art step by step tuning guide! If you watch through the UAV tech videos of the past years already, most of that reveals itself to you... and I'm sure that's what you have been doing too.. but having that all in this compact form is absolutely amazing! And you added a few things I didn't actually know yet: Use that master slider for D-Term (definitely gonna try that), use a fixed low pass on D as biquad (I found a high dynamic LP setting that worked wonders, but still have D-Term noise... so gonna try that too!), use the correct templates for BBL (ooof, I probably just picked the wrong file out of that folder ;D). Also I never could really figure out what these PID terms really do and that wiki-article kinda started tooo high in the maths for me to decipher. Really great explanation on how these are calculated and what they actually do! Thanks for that part!
- high i gains are indeed fascinating - just got and tested my babyhawk II HD today, stock tuning has I in the 150s (P&D around 55) which felt quite weird to me but I gave it a try on stock tune and it handles surprisingly well and prop wash handling is superb - even though it doesn't come with rpm filtering. That was quite surprising. Might try this on my other quads too.
- agreed on the PD Balance Slider - how many of us are suffering from this? I really hope this is fixed soon.
- I think the slight over- vs. underdampening comes really down to the actual feel you want that quad to have. I bet this could at some point in the future be similar to sports mode and comfort mode of a car - the underdampening will make the quad feel very agile and responsive - so best for freestyle and racing, the overdampening makes it more behaved, feeling bigger and slower - I think for cinematic shooting this might be the better choice also to the part of jello in the video that actually comes from these overshooting events - what do you think?
A few wishes I have for further vids:
- provide real examples of how an overtuned quad sounds and how you distinguish a well sounding motor from one with to much D-Term/D-Term Oscillations - many who start in that hobby use cheaper bind & fly's without propper logging. (thank you OpenLager for existing, though :D). Also Mark made a vid where he got the D just right at the point where he could hear oscillations, but it wasn't quite distinguishable in the video... This would really be something great to listen to before tuning a quad in real life.
- example-footage of how you do your testflights would be cool - and then looking at the logs. I think I know what to do but... sometimes you just think you understood a description while in real life you are messing it all up - completely unkowingly ;D
- All my quads overshoot in snap jaw-turns even if setpoint tracking is pretty good on the roll and pitch. Is that a normal behaviour? On the other axis you would add D to the mix which supposedly isn't existing on Yaw. How does your AOS 5 behave in this discipline? What's a good behaviour here and how do you get there?
Underrated comment
The only comments he replied to or hearted are the ones that thank him and boost his ego a ton. weird coincidence lol
You are the best dude! I have learned more than I'll ever realistically need to know from you and I have loved every minute of it.
You're welcome, I hope it helps you get your quads flying even better.
It’s like you knew what I was looking for, this video came at the right moment . Thank you
These video series are a must see for anybody that's in the FPV hobby flying quadcopters! Thanks for your hard work Chris! Very informative & educational guide to tunning ! Just what I needed 😀
You're welcome 😁
Great job. First time in 6 years of trying that I have understood P I D.
Many thanks.
That's wonderful to hear! Thanks 👍
best explanation of how a PID works I've found on the internet. I don't own a drone, but your explanation is outstanding and I think I finally have it figured out. Thanks!
A clean aos-5 build makes tuning a breeze. My new daily driver, just ordered a second frame. Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful contributions to the hobby Chris.
So glad to hear it! Thanks for your support 👍
This guy is a beast engineer. Huge thanks for this amazing explanation, your teaching methods are super easy to comprehend and this adds a lot of valuable knowledge to this community. Great work Chris!
You're very welcome! Glad that you found the information useful!
Love this thank you! It's been a mission to tune the 3 inch Cinewhoop and the 8 inch Cinelifter and have tried to grasp the concept of tuning by reading the Blackbox.. but it's like hieroglyphics. Loads of us need this. Thanks again!
You're welcome!
JB can learn from your teaching method, the visualizations and support text effort are really making you one of the best To go to! Just add 2 minutes of flying every video, just for aesthetic en entertainment, and you are the next biggest quad Guru out there!
Chris's visualizations and teaching style are fantastic. Because of the large number of videos that I publish (including livestreams, between 5 and 7 videos a week, for nearly four years running), it's often not possible to put as much time into each individual video as Chris does. A lot of my earlier videos were more academic and involved slide shows and diagrams, but with guys like Chris and Mark Spatz making amazing academic content, I have focused more on practical problem solving. My "visual aids" these days are more likely to be a quadcopter on the bench or a screen recording of a Betaflight menu.
Different goals, both fantastic content creators.
Everyone has their niche. I feel like I'm doing more academic content and theory where PowerPoint graphics and text are more appropriate. When I need to get something configured properly I search JBs channel, his step by steps are the best in the business for getting your hardware set up and working.
@@ChrisRosser @Joshua Bardwell The P-D balance (professor-diagnostician) is optimized. Keep up guys, your works mark this hobby.
@@ChrisRosser He became a guru by time, you become a guru by plan. Just saying that you could use some of JB's '' fun stuff'' and he could use some more charts and graphics. Both phenomenal drone content makers! I meant no offense, just some positive reinforcement !
Very informative, thanks. I'm about to start tuning a 10" quad using iNav and it appears the teachings in this video are mostly applicable. :)
That worked really well. I have a severely underpowered quad I like to fly but has always been horrible. I wasnt as aggressive with the filters but through your process figure out the D was half of what it needed to be. Incredible difference thanks
Glad it helped! Happy flying.
thanks you kris
just a great tuto i learned how to tune a quad with facility (i dont now anyfing about tuning beefore) and i like so much the nice power point to explain all the fing perfectly
you make very great video 👍👍
You're welcome, glad it helped.
The rate at which you are producing high quality videos is amazing. Thank you. I will definitely try the "D first" approach with tuning. I like it because it is robust meaning that you end up with a better tune than before even if you stop your tuning session midway (bad weather, no more batteries, ...).
Yep I tried to design the process so that each step just makes things better and you can stop at any stage and still have a good result.
Thank you for all these wonderful videos you've been putting out. It just so happens I have a 5 inch to tune and I'll give your method a go.
Awesome video!! I have been flying on the stock betaflight tune and am a beginner 5 inch pilot and this video really helps me understand PID tuning a little more.
Thanks 👍 I appreciate your support.
This is quality. Thank you for sharing.
In essens, this is «Pid tuning for dummies - Explained». I needed that 👍🏻
Awesome explanation on the powerpoint. 10/10 would recommend. Subscribed!
Welcome aboard!
Hey Chris, is there anyway to contact you via Facebook or anything? tia
Between this and @UAV Tech one pack slider tune video, my quads have never flown so well! Thank you both for distilling this down to something straight forward and practical.
what a clean explanation,thanks a loot Chris,master of tunning,oneday these videos will be more famous in fpv world
I hope so too!
This is a 400-level college course, offered as a free video. Seriously, you are a fucking treasure, Chris.
Thanks Frank! Comments like yours make it all worthwhile. Stay tuned for the BF 4.3 and Emu 1.0 tuning videos :)
Hi @Chris Rosser this guide is still valid on Betaflight 4.4 ? I prefer this guide over the new one you have released because i think this is more "pilot based" and i can do it on the filed using betaflight osd or EdgeTx betaflight lua script. Thank you for your answer 🙏
this is 🔥🔥🔥 My 800g thiccboi porker Titan XL5 have never flown better than after following these tips on tuning filters and PIDs! Thank you Chris!
Now I just need to get good at flying 😜
By the way, after betaflight 3.5, the D term is derivative of gyro, not derivative of Error anymore in case anyone else is also wondering.
Thanks I'll add a card in to clarify that. I learnt something today!
@@ChrisRosser github.com/betaflight/betaflight/wiki/Signal-Flow-Diagram
Great video again mate.. Anyone changing 'pidsum limit' who uses more than one PID profile should make sure it has changed for said profiles in the CLI. My Change only affected profile zero. Fly high guys!
WOW MY QUAD FLIES AMAZING!! THANKYOU SO MUCH CHRIS!! i thought this tuning lark was all hype..i been running stock pids for a few years....i feel like i robbed myself lol
Thanks again Chris! I always put off fine-tuning my fleet at the bottom of my list until you started making this easy to follow series. I also ordered your frame and can't wait to build it. Bring on the final vid!11
Thanks to this I understand feedforward good enough to write an excel simulation
Glad it was helpful!
@@ChrisRosser Thank you for the clean and structured presentation so I can always go back and rewatch some parts of videos you made
I’m really loving this hobby and this video is exactly what I needed for my next step in my FPV journey. Thanks so much for sharing this 👏👏👏
Perhaps a career as a professor is not a bad idea, a very intensive and extensive explanation about something that still requires quite a bit of attention!
Your a godsend my man this has been the easiest to understand of any I've watched so far! Thanks for everything you do for the hobby your awesome 🤟👌
So happy that you found the video useful!
Another great seminar proffesor rosser !
Subscribed! Awesome video - is there a D gain chart towards 7" and higher builds? great stuff, thank you.
What an awesome video/explanation. I can't wait to try this on my AOS. Thanks Chris!
How fascinating, can't wait for your frame to arrive an put this tuning guide to use, I ordered it over two weeks ago.
Yeah shipping is a nightmare at the moment. I hope it arrives soon!
@@ChrisRosser Me too, if I have any questions, how can I ask them of you?
@@princesfpvdrones aos-rc.com has a contact form. You can reach me there.
What a great video for my flyday morning! Thanks man! 🤘
Great explanation! Thanks a lot :)
Did I understand it right, following your filter/tuning recommendation gives the quad a very good performance, but still leaves some room in case of new props/badly bent props or if I don't mount a gopro (tuning with mounted gopro)? Or should I be afraid of smoking motors?
Great videos! Thank you for going through this.
It does seem like all of this can and should be automated somehow in order to get a very precise tune. All of the data is there that can be fed into an automated tool. I remember in the early days of arducopter a self tune feature was developed where the FC would command/read/adjust.
The robots will put me out of a job soon no doubt 😁
Once again, so methodic and easy to follow. Thank you.
Hi Chris, I have some questions for you. First, do higher kv motors have better PID handling/ are they easier to tune? My thinking is more power means the quad can respond to PID errors quicker. Second, if the previous is true, could (for example) having 1950kv motors with a throttle limit that mimics the feel of a 1750kv motor mean that a pilot could have the throttle feel that they would prefer while also having superior PID control?
The reason I ask is I currently run a 2550kv motor with a motor output limit of 70%. But if I could raise that to 75% and have a throttle limit of 5%, I wonder if the quad would indeed fly better. I tested this myself, but frankly, I don't feel a difference. Perhaps there is a difference, but at my skill level, I can't tell. I don't have blackbox logging, so maybe you could see whether there truly is a difference or not.
Looking forward to your response. Whether I'm right or wrong, it will be fascinating to hear what you have to say
What did we do before Chris Rosser??
Could you do a video on how to tune both PIDs and filters on a a 65mm whoop? The listening for bounce-back is super useful but it'd be great to see an example and also some insight on how to choose which filters to run and filter settings since whoops are so popular and lots of people are swapping to higher KV motors so the stock tune/filter often no longer works well.
Sorry for the dumb question. What do "rough" motors sound like? I am currently tuning my AOS 5 and am not sure if I have pushed the PID master slider to high? At 2.0 the motors are warm to the touch, but I would like to know if I should be listening for issues with the motors at that agressive a tune. Thanks
At idle the motors make a grinding noise. In the air it can sound like a rough trilling or buzzing noise.
Thanks@@ChrisRosser:-)
I just built a quad, so should I start with your filtering video first? It was a Frankenstein of a build, fc and parts from other quads. Input would be great. Thanks for the vids.
Chris, I have a question. Does it matter if you tune rates before PID's? For example, I prefer quite "slow" rates, so even a full stick deflection produces sorta slow responce. So according to my logic we should get different PID's for different rates, am I right here?
Your PIDs affect how your rates feel. So we always go filters, PIDs, rates in that order so we don't have to go back and repeat steps. If you do rates first then tune PIDs you will need to go back and adjust rates because they may feel different after.
Hi Chris,thanks for you videos!! , I have a doubt , at 33:01 , to much FF (overshoot) what the quad actually do ? can you be more especify , “example “ thanks in advance “
I've got another question Chris. On BLHELI 32, which do you recommend on pwm frequency, 24 or 48? I've always used 24. I saw a video talking from Joshua and another person talking about 24 and 48. It was from a 2019 video. They recommended 48. I still would like to know your thoughts on this. And also, why would you recommend that number. Thank you in advance!
I would use variable PWM 24-48kHz on BLHeli32 to get the best of both worlds.
@@ChrisRosser Oh, I'll have to find a tutorial on that. It's my first time hearing it. Thanks a lot!
Very clear explanation! Thank you!
You're welcome!
Very nice summing up and detailed explanation on thee process. even JB will learn somethings today ;)
Glad it was helpful!
I'm sure you've heard if not had this question. Could we have 2 or more filter/pid profiles based on raw noise from our gyro? So if bend a prop it can switch to a more conservative pid tune? Say to fly home or finish a race? I'm sure I'm not the only pilot that clips a turn and is going to finish the race or break something no in between.
It's a great idea. I know you can switch manually but I'm not sure about automatically that would be very sophisticated.
I am glad I found your channel, it taught me lots and lots about tuning and frame design. As I am currently designing a frame for a sub-250 class drone it is very useful. I have lots of mavic mini motors as I am repairing dji drones and I wanted to build a microlongrange style quad that has mavic mini motors and I can put a naked gopro on top. For weeks I cannot tune it properly and I am not sure why. The frame has side stiffeners and in the BBE I can see no excessive vibrations. However I cannot tune it properly, it wobbles a LOT when flying. I wont give up and in a few days I will try this approach of tuning, maybe it helps. Is there a way of consultation if I run out of ideas? :)
Hi Chris, just want to thank you for bringing some "engineering" and "Science" into this hobby. I do watch other FPV channels where many are intuition or experience-based. However, I find your videos more than informative. I managed to do my first PID tune (understand what I'm doing and knowing what I expect) for the first time! Keep up the good work! Also, I m wondering if there another way than Patreon to support the channel? I am pretty sure there are some viewers among the 10k who prefer a once-off contribution! Thanks again!
I'm glad you enjoy the channel. If you'd like to support in a different way then you could consider the AOS 5 frame which I designed. aos-rc.com lots of people who've bought one say it's the best flying frame they have.
So filters have to be done firts and pid after filters are set??
Chris with this video I had learned more about pid tunnig than for the last 3 years thanks
Yes, always go filters, PIDs, rates in that order so you don't have to repeat steps.
Great video. Thank you so much!
So this video says "even without blackbox". But at the beginning you say one needs to go through your filter tuning video first for the first 3 steps. In that video, you depend on blackbox data. So how to proceed?
Thanks Chris, your vids have been making my quads fly a lot better! I have a 2.5" build that I fly in various configurations; open props, prop guards, 2s 3s, and sometimes with a SMO/naked gopro, or a 360Go camera. My question is, when adding weight to a quad like this, what settings should I focus on when tuning to compensate for the added weight? Also Because this quad can fly in so many combinations of setups, is there a way to have more than just 3 profiles in betaflight? Or should i just save a different DIFF for each setup? Thanks!
Probably a diff is the way to go for so many configurations.
@@ChrisRosser so should I just up my master gain slider when adding the extra weight? Or Just Re-Tune all together? I don't like tuning with the expensive camera on if I crash or get a weird launch from takeoff. I may just 3d print a dummy camera for tuning...
Great video! I like how well prepared your content is. PowerPoint might sound boring, but for this kind of educational video it's easier to follow and understand as if you'd just speak to the cam. Maybe I'll finnally get my copters tuned properly and see if it affects my ability to rip more aggressively thru the spots ;)
I find that a tight tune really helps with my confidence. I'm not worried about propwash and I feel like the quad will 'be there' when I need to make a quick correction to dodge a branch. I hope you enjoy your tuned quads even more!
12:23 this seems like also a good chart for if you have multiple pid modes set up
fly high d, but turn right down if you crash, before flying back and inspecting
Yes. Absolutely, that's what I recommend for people who fly high D gain. Have a second profile with stock filters and PIDs to fly home on if you crash 👍
Hi Chris will this tuning guide/logic will work on something similar to Betaflight (like Emuflight) or you will say only use this on BF quads?
yes, it will. more than that emu 1.0 is going to merge last BF changes so it will be even more equal than now
Hey, great vid - thank you. But I have troubles with one thing: in the title you mention that your method works "even without blackbox" but in the intro you reference your filter video in which you rely on balckbox logs. So my question is: What would be your recommendation for tuning a whoop which often (most times) do not have a possibility of logging? Do you have any recommendation for properly setting up filters "blindly"?
You can try my recommendation for filter setting and check for hot motors and oscillations. If you don't have any you're good to go.
@@ChrisRosser Alright, thank you - that is basically what I have been doing till now: Enable bi-directionsl DSHOT for RPM filtering - leave the PIDs at default set dynamic notch width to 0 and see how far I can move the filter sliders to the right until I get hot motors or oscillations. In your filtering video you disable a lot of filters in favor of the RPM filter - what would be your recommendation of order in which to disable the filters?
@@stylesuxx Set your d term filtering to my recommendation then gradually turn off the gyro low pass filters
@@ChrisRosser Awesome, thank you - will try that.
I'm trying to use your approach with a 3 inch kwad. What difference should I expect in term on Filtering and PID. ? Thank a lot for your video you, UAVtech and JB are opening
my mind one video at a time !
Perfect. An excellent video tutorial. Please also you can make one where you explain about the Rates. Thanks.
Just brainstorming, could it be theoretically possible to do logging through BetaFlight OSD, recording the footage on goggles and extracting that with a special tool from the video stream. Maybe using the first x lines/columns of the video feed?
Hi Chris. Thank you very much for the amazing video series.
Because of your viedeos I am currently on a deeep dive into quad tuning :-) - and I love it.
At 16:18 you talk about enabling iterm relax. Which are the settings you can recommend?
What do the values exactly mean and how do they change the behaviour of the quad?
# get iterm_relax
iterm_relax = RP
profile 0
Allowed values: OFF, RP, RPY, RP_INC, RPY_INC
iterm_relax_type = SETPOINT
profile 0
Allowed values: GYRO, SETPOINT
iterm_relax_cutoff = 15
profile 0
Allowed range: 1 - 50
Thank you very much.
@11:40 Does this also apply to 6inch builds? Thanks Chris
Hi Chris, first of all thank you for this incredible series of videos.
I would like to ask you a couple of small clarifications:
1) When checking for max D-term and then for PD balance, the "Stick Response Gain" slider shall be in the center position on 1.0 or shall I turn it to 0.0 on the leftmost position ? What about feedforward transition ?
2) Is there any particular BLHeli32 / BLHeliS setting that you recomend before this tuning procedure ?
Thank you in advance!!
When checking max D and PD balance turning down FF is a good idea. No need to change FF transition.
ESC tuning video incoming in the next few weeks!
Wonderful graphical presentation of PID terms, Chris! :-) Why are pidsum limits not 100% by default?
Not sure. Perhaps it's to prevent oscillations if your PIDs are very wrong.
Thanks Chris for this awesome approach, my quad flies amazing, but I still have a small problem:
I turned the master-slider all the way up to 2.0 and still had cool motors and no wobbles or funny behavior. I followed all the steps before, but what I cant get rid of, is bounceback on the pitch axis on full stick flips, any suggestions? I have to say, that I fly a pretty heavy quad, beacuse I carry a Hero 9.
You need to go off sliders and decrease your pitch P term.
I think you are right. But I do think that having the rates correctly matching your 'muscle memory' will be the most beneficial even with untuned default PID values.
I grew up flying airplanes and favour the IMAC/F3A style flying (I am also quite old for a multicopter pilot) and therefor have deeply embedded muscle memory. I hate it when the quad does not move with speed that matches my expectations in relation to my stick movement.
Finally those stupid 3 letters make sense to me 😃😃😍 I appreciate your great work m8 👌
This is interesting. I've been following Mark Spatz general guide, but with build I know will have low authority I've been upping the master slider first before starting PD balance.
I like cranking up the master slider first because it makes bounceback and overshoot easier to hear and see in the logs. It gets sooo much sharper and louder with all the gains turned up. Helps a bunch with tuning PD balance!
Hi Chris.
Do you think this method of tuning is appropriate for 1s 3inch toothpicks? (babytooth from kababfpv)
I followed this without black-box, unfortunately. The babytooth seems to fly ok with the filter settings you suggested for clean builds. I did manage to get some amazing flight feel following this guide but cant seem to tune out oscillations in snap movements. Snap yawing also causes wobbling outside of the yaw axis too and motor 3 seems to dip. This issue does not occur on kababfpv's suggested pids though
Tuning without balckbox is very tricky. Filter settings should be OK if you're using my recommended settings. As for PIDs I would start with kababs recommended. If you want to go more agressive just multiply all values by 1.1. That will keep the ratios the same. If that is good multiply all by 1.1 and keep repeating until you see osciallations then step back.
Hello Chris,
First of All THANK YOU for sharing this master piece, very usefull!!!! Also i would like to ask you a question:
Since the last release of BF there is no "D min" to turn off. Do i need to turn off something else or is it fine like that?
Thank you in advance for your help.
Best
It's now called dynamic damping and has its own slider in expert mode. You can move the slider down to zero to turn it off.
@@ChrisRosser Thank you again!! amazing works sir !! I love your videos, so interesting and very well explained. Keep on the amazing work 👍👌
Really good video. In 31.05 Somekind of dilemma adding some ff or P. Because too much P slightly feel likely add of rate and too much ff much more likely turbo rate during full roll. Please advice. 🙏
If your PIDs are well tuned then flight feel is controlled by your rates only. Don't tune your PIDs based on feel just get the tracking good then adjust rates to get the best feel. 👍
20:17 Any chance you could post a recording of what the single and double “zip” sounds like on an actual quad? Thanks!
Great video and explanation, thanks 👍
No problem 👍
Great video, thanks for sharing your thoughts. In my experience higher I-Term produces a "stiff" flight feeling. Additionally on HD cruising flights it sometimes produces windup wich give me a "pumping" HD video. It depends on what motor I use for a quad, I found week motors to be more sensitive to this.
The stiffness depends on the ratio between P, I and Feedforward in my experience. If you increase them all then I think the feel stays much the same.
Chris I'm curious about how hot a motor can be after a flight and still be safe? On your AOS5 are your motors cold or are they pretty warm but still able to keep your fingers on them without discomfort? I'd really like to know an exact temp (i.e. 150F for example) for what is a safe temp.
If you can hold the motor for as long as you want its definitely less than 60C (based on ISO60601 skin contact temperatures) and that's fine. On my AOS 5 the motors only get very slightly warm even with no dynamic notch and D gains of 55.
Great Video.Thx Chris
No problem 👍
Hey Chris’s, what are your thoughts about hybrid frames?
Like running in den front 5 inch arms and on the back 6 inch arms but still using 5 inch props. For the cleaner air. Do you think this is good or just a Mythos ?
Making arms longer than they need to be is not great from a vibration standpoint so I would need to see significant evidence of improvement to recommend that approach.
Hey Chris I really love your videos and I'm doing my best to follow along and implement things into my tune but I'm having an issue.
I have your aos 5.5 frame with fpvcycle 25mm motors and everything is clean and no vibes on stock bf 4.2.9 but anytime I do a snap flip front or back on the pitch axis the quad wigs out and does a violent flutter sound and the quad doesn't want to do snappy front or backflips.. I get over or undershooting or bounceback it seems like... any ideas what I can do?? My favorite move is the juicy Flick and I can't seem to do it with the aos but if I drop the same stack and motors ect in my other frames it flies great... I'm at a loss
Hi, sorry to hear you're having issues. Drop me an email with your logs and a few pics of the build and I'll take a look!
Hi great work. A question: is not better to check the pidtoolbox without ff? Thanks for the answer
Yes. You may get a slightly cleaner trace with FF off. If you leave FF at default and increase the master slider FF is often low enough not to bother pidtoolbox in my experience. In my fine tuning video I advise FF to zero before tuning PD because it's a fine tune.
Great video! Personally I turn off everything and tune PID only and use filters if needed. Im old school, lol
You need feedforward to avoid I term windup so it's worth using it if you are not already.
Really nice video!
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the D-term isn't based on the Pid-error. It's just based on the gyro. That's why the D doesn't interact at the beginning at sharp inputs(even without fast setpoint-tracking when the Pid-error is high) . ✌️
Yep, that's a mistake that was pointed out to me. Need to add a card.
@@ChrisRosser so isn't it true that the D Term is in charge of keeping the error constant?
Tks a lot for this tutorial !
Chris, how does an advanced RC link like ELRS or Ghost interact with stick response gain and feed forward? For example, with ELRS @ 500hz I have my ff_sp_interpolate = on and my smoothing factor set to 40. On stock pids and min filter sliders the quad is very locked in and I feel very little latency in the controls. Does stick response gain still need to be increased in this instance?
Yes. We'll talk about rates in another video. But setpoint tracking needs lots of feedforward regardless of your control link.
Hi, Chris. I really want to buy your AOS 5 frame. Problem is, I live in China and I don't really know where to buy it from. Any clues on that?
I'm working on Chinese manufacturing of the frame.
@@ChrisRosser any chance we could get an update when it all works out? As I'm really looking forward to buying your frame. Literally no other frame interests me as much as this one, not even close.
Keep up the awesome work, friend! And thanks for your reply!
@@sadboybushido Yep, I'll keep everyone up to date!