CORRECTIONS: - Solitaire has T4, not three. - The 'example' troupe has a cost of 200pts, not 190 - you could perhaps lose a couple of their unique melee weapons for a less pricy unit though.
Also Rising Crescendo includes fall back and shoot and all infantry and the skyweavers (bikes) have this keyword. The fall back and shoot stratagem is more useful for Voidweavers primarily.
They are strong, yes, but I do respect how their strength comes from a place that makes sense, based on their style and strategy - opposed to just "this unit is big and strong because it is big"
As an ork player I'd say I feel personally attacked, but green tide 30-mobs don't work worth a damn with the current morale rules anyway so it's more like "this unit is big and weak because it is big" instead. :)
The basic point I was trying to explain to someone (who plays Quinns yet still insists that the Quinns aren't good) is that it doesn't matter if you only have a few choices when all your choices are basically A+ or S Tier units
Hot take right here, but because of the limited unit selection in addition to really strong rules to complement their aesthetic (i.e. these clowns go fasta, these quins are super lucky etc) is why the league of votann are an inteesting selection. HOWEVER votann are lacking in my head those aesthetic rules to really make them shine in addition to some rules reworks
You know what? Good. Harlequins are a niche army within a niche army, hyperspecialized and focused. And if you play them like that, they work great. Plus they add a neat lore to the game. After years of not existing, it is nice to see them flourish. And if they flourish, GW may add more to the range.
They are powerful because of the state of the meta. Tough armour of contempt across the board makes generally low volume, high ap, high damage absolutely necessary, which in turn is very suboptimal vs quins. Anti infantry weapon profiles really do not struggle vs harlequins but are just not that good against other factions in the meta.
@@patinho5589 I think it is safe to say that, even with the nerfs they will take a giant dump on it. They may end up with more even win rates, but that is likely to be at the cost of wildly skewed match-uos. In terms of how this will effect Quin's, it is hard to say. Votan seem likely to totality a invalidate several armies, including knights and most armies that just want to castle up in the mid board and hold objectives. The latter of these are usually what Quins do well against anyway, so the loss of these easier wins may drive win % down. Playing directly into Votan seems doable for Quins, but I would expect an increase in mobile firepower armies like CWE and especially Tau, and these are some of the harder matchups for Quins IMO. On the other hand, Votan having super AoC may lead to more people bringing even heavier guns, which is almost always good for the clowns.
Honestly I think there is a small group of elite players that lift Harlequins but overall they have many counters that all based on stats beat Harlequins more often than not >50% win rates- Imperial Knights / Orks / Chaos Knights / Bile CSM / ETC. If the army got nerfed again I could definitely imagine a future where we see no one playing this faction.
A couple of points if you haven't played against Quin's before: 1. Luck of the Laughing God re-rolls are NOT the same as CP re-rolls. They can't be used on charge rolls, psychic tests or morale checks. Unlike a CP re-roll though, they CAN be used on units embarked in a transport, so fusion pistol drive-bys can benefit from them. 2. Flip belts are not the same as fly. Flip belts work when making a charge move, not just a regular move, advance or fall-back. This is a huge advantage, and makes screening Harlequins much harder. On the flip side (🤣), they do still suffer movement penalties for difficult terrain. The benefit of flip belts and the small base sizes on Harlequins make sabotaging heroic interventions very easy, so watch out for that. HI happens in the charge phase, and only if a model is not within engagement range of an enemy. This means a Harlequin player can get a model just within 1' of a character but also in engagement range of and closer to another enemy. The character can't HI, because it is already in engagement range. Then the harlequin activates first and piles into the closest unit and away from (and out of engagement range of) the character, who now can't HI and can't activate at all.
they can be used on psychic and stuff, it’s just you reroll one of the dices. Flip belts aren’t a thing anymore, and work on normal moves and advances.
@@web_082 literally the only thing that is correct in that statement is that technically flip belts are rolled into the 'hatlequin's panoply' rule, and so don't exist as a standalone rule. However: 1.Luck dice CAN NOT be used on charge and psychic tests. The ability specifies exactly what rolls it can be used on - quoting from page 144 of the codex: 'Each luck re-roll can be used to re-roll one hit roll, wound roll, damage roll, saving throw or advance roll made for a unit from your army with the Luck of the Laughing God ability'. 2. Flip belts are represented in the second bullet point of the Harlequin's panoply rule, which specifies 'each time this unit makes a normal move, advances, falls back OR MAKES A CHARGE MOVE, until that move is finished, models in this unit can move horizontally through models and terrain features . . .'
@@samhunter1205 the only things you can use luck rerolls for are hit wound save advance or damage roll that’s it no charge or psychic or number of hits none of that
@@Trinine9 yeah, that is basically what I said, although I didn't mention the number of shots, which I suppose could come up on shadowseer or skyweavers. My main point though is that they are NOT like cp - so many people seem to get confused by that, for reasons I have never understood.
@@ЭльдрадУльтран that Harlequins were the strongest for a while after the new codex came out, then were crushed with a massive nerf-hammer, after which the outcry fizzkled out, but it seems that despite this they're still incredibly good
Yup I checked it too. I used to play harlequins in the rogue Trader era and am coming back to 9th and heard there were some balance changes so I wanted up to date info! Thanks for this summary!
My only experience with harlequins was my deathwing being tabled and my opponent forgot about 200 points of models in deep strike. In summery 1800 points of harlequins tabled 2000 points of deathwing. Still a fun game, despite the shelacking
@@web_082 he shot and/or stabbed my guys, and rolled 3s then 5s and 6s then I rolled 1s and 2s and my models were removed. Same reason my bike captain with arbiters gaze, combi melta and thunder hammer charged into his troupe master and did 0 wounds then was immediately killed in return. Dice be like that sometimes.
From a painters views, I hate how few models Harlequins have compared to pretty much anyone else. It is one of the reasons I never picked them up; I chose Necrons and Tyranids, they have way more models to paint.
The combo of picking behind enemy lines with the harlequin specific secondary is strong. There are 4 conditions to the harlequin secondary. If they remove the one condition about being in the enemy's deployment zone but keep the other 3 it will tone them down just enough without having to next units or change points.
I guess it insulates them against nerfs to some extend. If they would nerf any of those few choices, the army would basically go from powerful to pitifully weak or borderline unplayable in an instant.
It's a lot of fun as Ynnari having all these options/flavor. Even if Ynnari has been getting sacked for the last for years, can't say I'll be giving it up. I even prefer having Harlequins within the ynnari banner rather than having them in their own patrol. Weaker than on their own, but the flavor is *chefs kiss*. With threads of fate and those extra vicious revenant spells, it's a lot of fun.
Their durability and speed is insane. I really don’t think people should be able go mid board, hide from nothing. Ignore the heaviest of shooting, and then score massive points. There is def something broken about a faction if they have a 59% win percentage and everyone else is hovering around 50% or below. There is a point where your rules are just better than other armies. I play Tau and we were broken as hell before indirect fire got nerfed. Now I expect harlequins to be reined in a lot compared to others now.
Any pointers on using the “Traveling Players” rule for including just one attachment of them with an otherwise ordinary Craftworld list? Like what Craftworlds units they more clearly outclass? I’m a new player just starting Eldar (after like two years of watching you and battle reports so I’m not exactly the typical new player lol) and like Harlequins enough to do one detachment if it could work well, maybe instead of melee aespect warriors? I do love Shining spears so I’d rather use them than the Harlequin bikes and I also really like the models of Fire Prisms but Void weavers are def cool too so I’m looking at maybe a detachment with a Starweaver transport with Troops inside, and Void Reavers alongside it? Idk just thinking outloud… oh and how difficult do you think bringing their strength to bear would be for a player like me, compared to ordinary Craftworld’s units? I know I’ve chosen a faction with a lot of synergies and that isn’t the easiest to learn for a new player but like I said due to my much greater knowledge of the game (and of Craftworlds) than a typical new player I’m pretty sure I can handle it, I’m also the type that remembers rules and strategems and the like pretty easily… however it’s still a concern of mine. Oh and one last question, Shadowseer vs Far Seer if I was to include one of them in my theoretic detachment of Harlequins? I’ve looked at the Shadow Seer powers and they do seem more tricky to use well than Farseer’s but I do really like the model and lore for the Shadowseer. Any unique specific synergies that the Shadowseer could bring to the table for ordinary Craftworlds units?I’d also consider the Solitaire, another cool model. Any tips would be appreciated!
Harlequins as an army have always been strong ever since their debut in September 1988 due to their super elite ultimate glass cannon army nature. Rogue Trader, 2nd Edition, 3rd Edition, Harlequins were always strong and steamrolling the tables under experienced players ever since. I miss 3rd Edition Harlequin Wraithlords.
Great video, but the solitarie has T4, and with “Prince of sins” you anyway subtract 2 from hit rolls (And they cannot be re-rolled) of the attacks made against him: his primary weakness in defence are his only 5W
@@liveac3694 They can stack, but the end result can't modify the roll by more than 1. So, while in most cases it is going to, effectively, be -1, there will be cases where units with a +1 to hit buff will still end up only hitting at -1.
He actually only has a -1 in melee same as all harlequins that aren’t vehicles the prince of sins gives him a flat -1 to everything so he gets a -1 to ranged and -2 only in melee
The thing is player who play this aren't new. They are people who have played for a long while maybe the 3rd army they are piloting. The skill ceiling is high with harlequins. So that means the win rate may be based on say 300 really good players vs the 10000 people who play a space marine of some sort. So the percentage win rate is not a good representation. Give a few troupe to a unskilled player and those 6 wound troupe are toast.
who woulve thunk -1 to be hit, -1 to be wounded, no rerolls, 4++, very high mobility would be good? And people complained about custodes no reroll stratagem?
Slightly different. They’re not -1 to wound. And their vehicles are no hit re rolls. Custodes strat was any unit in the army to he no hit wound or dmg re rolls. That was too OP
@@user-zh8dr1qt1s The Custodes stratagem is also only applicable to one unit per phase, and it costs CP. Harlequins can get -1 to incoming wound rolls through an aura on a Shadowseer.
@@user-zh8dr1qt1s Troupes are a major mainstay of Harlequin lists. They are much better than most factions' troops. The aura also applies to characters, which can be important, for example, for Solitaires, who have good chances of surviving melee retaliation.
I'm afraid you were also slightly incorrect on the Mirage Launchers - the Skyweavers and Starweavers have different versions. The -1 to hit is on ranged attacks only for Starweavers and melee only on Skyweavers. Otherwise top video - thanks for making it!
-1 to hit in melee on BIKERS is the "harlequin's mask" ability; also deny rerolls to hit for "skyveawer mirage launchers" ability. -1 to hit ranged/melee and deny rerolls to hit on VEHICLE is the "mirage launchers" ability.
harlequins are only good at secondaries but necrons are better at that and have higher damage output. they have a high win rate but very few bad players play the army
It is like that with many games that have factions. There usually is one that is hard to do well in and deters noobs, but all the good players like it because it is rewarding and offers options the beginner friendly factions don't. One other example is the PC military MMO game of "War Thunder". That has changed a bit, but for the first 5 years or so the game was mostly about WW2 era propeller aircraft fighting each other and it was separated into nation factions. The most beginner friendly factions where Americans (very fast, lots of fire power), Russians (good at everything, no wonder in a Russian game) and to a lesser extend British (very maneuverable with decent speed) and Japanese (very maneuverable and easy to fly, but rather slow). Germans were very hard to do well in because their big strength was basically flight maneuver acrobatics. They weren't as fast as Americans or as maneuverable as Japanese and British, but they were good in vertical maneuvers. Doing loops and out-climbing the enemy and so on. You needed to know how to do advanced combat maneuvers and know the theories of air combat to do well in German planes, but those good players who knew their shit, could outclass every other faction when flying them and that exacerbated the problem, because those top ace players racked up huge win rates in German planes and so the developers kept nerfing German planes by increasing their repair costs and their battle rating (basically the War Thunder equivalent to Power Levels in 40k), so in the end when you flew German early war fighters you had to face late war or even post war fighters from the other factions, which made it ridiculously hard to play that faction for new or mediocre players.
@@Lothrean Thanks. From my experiences with War Thunder and other comparable games, I'm afraid if they would nerf Harlequins, the top notch tournament players would probably still play them and still do well with them, but it would make them unplayable for regular and new players.
This sounds like the ideal army for me. I like elves. Their snobbish aloofness and overeducatedness. And if I lose I can just laugh. Call it a tragedy or tragicomedy and ask the opponent if he enjoyed the performance. And I also consider myself quite pretty so you know elves really synergise with that
I would say Harlequins 100%, they are an absolute blast to play, whereas wraiths are pretty mono-dimensional and you may get bored of them. The only thing is Quin's are a massive ballache to paint, even if (like me) you don't do the pissing fiddly diamonds.
I have all eldar factions and if you like a army that takes a higher skill lvl to play well I would suggest quins but if you are just starting eldar crafworld is the better choice Dark eldar aren’t bad ether if you like the transport theme for your army
Ayy I would agree with you for the most part, since Nids can actually build different types of Armys. However, i feel like until the "High AP and High Dmg" meta for weapons does not change harlequins are just way better against that type of weaponry. (But jeah, the moment GW fixes their AP values, and people take normal weapons again, Harlequins value will plummet to the ground, and will be no where near top tier)
@@holokom3330 in that regard yeah, but the huge mw output, the strenght and versatility of their hive fleet ( leviatan mostly) and the synapsis abilities all create a huge combos of strong rules that can easily destroy mid and low tier armies and put heavy blows on other top tiers
Because movement gives good players the most room to differentiate themselves from more average players, and Harlequins are probably the best mobility army. If a lot of people who haven't run them before give the faction a go, they find them quite hard - it is a low floor but very high ceiling army.
Given the available data, they do need toning down a bit. Not hard to do though. Just nudge points costs on Troupes and Starweavers up a wee bit and they'll probably be golden.
Maybe, although as other posters have said, Harlequins are benefitting very much from AoC and the general weakness of hordes at the moment. The main stuff that counters quin's very cheaply (mass low quality fire) isn't being run, which is an ideal meta for them. Any move in the meta and you will see them drop back without the need for any nerfs.
@@samhunter1205 I'm not buying that argument tbh. Let's balance for the current meta and not a theoretical meta where everyone runs Assault Cannons. 🤪 Honestly the whole line of thinking reminds me a lot of when Drukhari players were saying Drukhari didn't need nerfs, people needed to bring more Autocannons. It wasn't true then, and I don't believe it to be true now.
@@d.t.m8393 maybe. Quins are now in a difficult position to balance. Over-arching faction rules have been nerfed, but points nerfs are more difficult to manage well for an army with a very small selection of data sheets. I suppose a 1pt increase to troupes may not be the worst, it would have a modest impact on a lot of lists and more heavily punish the light Saedath trouoes-in-boats spam. But I do think it is wise to consider if a particular meta is heavily skewed and why, and what impact that is having on a relatively small data set. Also, it really should be remembered that win % is a very blunt measurement, and isn't necessarily that informative. Harlequins are a hard to play niche army, and tend to be taken to tournaments by experienced players. You might expect their win rate to be slightly overstated as a result.
@@samhunter1205 I don't think Quins are in a tough spot to balance at all actually. Their rules are by and large fine now, they feel and play like Harlies should. They just have a few too many units on the table atm. Troupes up 2ppm and Starweavers up 5ppm and I bet they settle back in around the low 50s rather than the high 50s/low 60s. And I should point out that I'm not just making these claims based on WR alone. I do look at all the stats, including things like over-rep which have Harlies sitting at around 1.8x. As in, they place 1.8 times more than you'd expect given their player numbers. Such a high over-rep is another strong indicator of an overtuned faction(Custodes for example have a .5 over-rep, meaning they place half as much as you'd expect given the amount of games being played by them -a good indicator that they are actually struggling more than might be evident by their roughly 50% WR).
@@d.t.m8393 sure, Harlequins are certainly slightly overperfirming atm, we should be aiming for win rates of 45-55%. Maybe 2ppm for trouoes and 5 for starweavers would be fine, but again, I think some recognition of what AoC has done to the meta is merited. I suppose my perspective is partly as someone who deliberately doesn't play the most powerful subfraction, where I think the current points costs are fine. But points have to balanced against the most powerful rules until GW decide to either reign in the power of faction abilities or price units differently for them, which isn't going to happen. I guess we shall wait and see what happens
Aeldari are a super faction. They can ally, and there is a special rule for a Craftworld or Drukhari to take a single patrol of Quin's, but it isn't correct to say they 'have more units now'. In particular, you can't get access to their mono faction buff, luck if the laughing god, if you take any allied Aeldari.
I feel you. It's ridiculous that Nids ran roughshod over the scene for 6 months and still haven't been toned down that much but Dwarfs don't even get all their models releases before they're hit with basically the biggest nerfs any army has *ever* seen
@@priorityordersdiscarded7868 Pretty much. I'm not saying that some nerfs werent warranted, but I think they went a bit too far, but theres been 70+% winrate armies for months. And from what I've heard, these aremies were trashing unnerfed LOV anyway. At least wait for results instead of listening to people that claim to have play tested for 6 weeks with rules leaked 3 weeks priot
Thanks for going over this. I get that these guys have crazy acrobatic skills and a fanatical philosophy, but should they be THIS strong in game, rising above Space Marines and other factions?
Well other questions: Why Should the main Factions be the strongest? And its not like they are overtuned on Purpose like votann, they just always happend to be the most mobile "Sub-Faction" of all armys, and at the moment being mobile is way better than anything else. If the meta shifts more towards a "big Numbers Grind" they would drop hard in win rate.
@@holokom3330 interesting points. They have the appropriate skill sets, it just so happens that those skills make them the most effective at the game mechanics that matter.
Seriously, the flavor of just jumping over everything, including buildings, or unloading from a transport to charge a unit only to then scurry back into the transport after fighting while laughing is the most unserious, childish way to play Warhammer and I'm all about it.
That is in the eye of the beholder. Granted, I never played with or against them, because I just came back to the hobby after a 10 year hiatus, but I have played a lot between 3rd Edition and 6th Edition and I would say losing against one of those tricky glass hammer armies is less annoying than losing against one of those cheesy Space Marine lists that hides behind their thick armor and tons of special abilities that don't require finesse or brains to use. Maybe now, currently Space Marines aren't particularly strong, but as someone who had to face those ridiculously overpowered Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights codices back in 5th Edition, I don't see a problem with the shoe being on the other foot for a while. And back then there basically were no post release nerfs. When you got some overpowered Space Marine codex, you had to live with being stomped and basically reduced to a punching bag by and for those chosen factions for 4 or 5 years. Nobody gave a shit about how people playing fragile Dark Eldar armies felt facing the spam of Dark Angels armies full of Terminators with missile launchers, or how that impacted their tournament results and whether whole factions just vanished from tournaments altogether for years. Back then GW didn't really care about tournaments and subsequently they didn't really care about balancing. Tournaments was just something the customers did among themselves but none of GW's business. A bit like BMW doesn't care whether the people buying their cars do street racing with them or not. For the first time in the 35 year long history of this game, the fragile and fast glass hammer armies are doing well and are not just there so fluff-players can provide stuff to shoot to Space Marine players. So for me as a time traveler from that era, those calls for nerfing Harlequins don't elicit much sympathy, I have to say. Also, the fact that 40k has morphed into this tournament focused sporty game now means that fast armies with interesting special rules and abilities will always do better than beginner friendly Jack of all trades armies like Space Marines, because advanced top notch players naturally prefer the fast and tricky armies that give them more options and allow them to outplay their opponent instead of just relying on thick armor and throwing lots of dice at each other in some simplistic slug fest. I think that is the real reason why Space Marines aren't doing so well and it has less to do with actual balancing between the codices. It is a phenomenon that is universal to all competitive games. Top notch players always prefer the fast stuff because they rather rely on their skills than on armor to stay alive. Look at a MMO PC game like "World Of Tanks" for example. All the newbees and mediocre players lumber around in thickly armored Heavy Tanks, while all the elite players buzz around in fragile but fast Light Tanks. Nerfing Harlequins won't change that fundamental rule. Space Marines are inherently a beginner friendly heavily armored faction and as such they will always have a glass ceiling to what they can do, unless GW fucks up totally and makes them ridiculously OP, which would ruin the tournament focused sports thing they have going now. As long as the game stays focused on tournament play, Space Marines will remain a noob faction and no nerfs to any other faction will change that.
@@georgestauber2636 how many mortal wounds can your army put out in a turn you need to deal more when you bring 2,000 points of Eldar you don't have that many wounds on the table if you just hit the troop squads with like some spore mines they're gone
Death Jester cannot firing from light starweavers. From Starweavers can be shoot Pistols only. DJ have Shrieker Cannon with Assault profile. And Solitaire has Т4.
Nope. If the Starweaver has a model/models embarked upon it, those models can shoot out irrespective of if they're equipped with pistols or not. The only exception is if it's locked in combat.
CORRECTIONS:
- Solitaire has T4, not three.
- The 'example' troupe has a cost of 200pts, not 190 - you could perhaps lose a couple of their unique melee weapons for a less pricy unit though.
Also Rising Crescendo includes fall back and shoot and all infantry and the skyweavers (bikes) have this keyword. The fall back and shoot stratagem is more useful for Voidweavers primarily.
They are strong, yes, but I do respect how their strength comes from a place that makes sense, based on their style and strategy - opposed to just "this unit is big and strong because it is big"
As an ork player I'd say I feel personally attacked, but green tide 30-mobs don't work worth a damn with the current morale rules anyway so it's more like "this unit is big and weak because it is big" instead. :)
@@richmcgee434 damn, and here necron warriors get the “This unit is big and strong because it can get back up”
@@TheCrimsonSpork Yeah, your mob rule works fine. Ours appears to have gotten broken, probably due to careless handling by some grot. :)
Their limited unit roster isn't a weakness when tournament winning lists basically run 4 unit types and still slap ridiculous face.
Having to remember less helps a lot.
The basic point I was trying to explain to someone (who plays Quinns yet still insists that the Quinns aren't good) is that it doesn't matter if you only have a few choices when all your choices are basically A+ or S Tier units
Exactly.
I'd rather have less than 10 highlights than 30 or so mediocre to okay options.
Harlequins aren't strong they are flat out broken.
Hot take right here, but because of the limited unit selection in addition to really strong rules to complement their aesthetic (i.e. these clowns go fasta, these quins are super lucky etc) is why the league of votann are an inteesting selection. HOWEVER votann are lacking in my head those aesthetic rules to really make them shine in addition to some rules reworks
You know what? Good. Harlequins are a niche army within a niche army, hyperspecialized and focused. And if you play them like that, they work great. Plus they add a neat lore to the game. After years of not existing, it is nice to see them flourish. And if they flourish, GW may add more to the range.
pretty sure they're as strong as they are due to the strength of character it takes to paint all that checkerboard
I have a tiny square brush that I just dap on in a checkerboard, I have to make it myself through
I do galaxy print instead of checkers.
@@Jakkgusa how did you do that? Nice idea!
They are powerful because of the state of the meta. Tough armour of contempt across the board makes generally low volume, high ap, high damage absolutely necessary, which in turn is very suboptimal vs quins. Anti infantry weapon profiles really do not struggle vs harlequins but are just not that good against other factions in the meta.
I really hope GW remember this when writing the next balance dataslate . . .
How will votann affect the meta?
@@patinho5589 I think it is safe to say that, even with the nerfs they will take a giant dump on it. They may end up with more even win rates, but that is likely to be at the cost of wildly skewed match-uos.
In terms of how this will effect Quin's, it is hard to say. Votan seem likely to totality a invalidate several armies, including knights and most armies that just want to castle up in the mid board and hold objectives. The latter of these are usually what Quins do well against anyway, so the loss of these easier wins may drive win % down. Playing directly into Votan seems doable for Quins, but I would expect an increase in mobile firepower armies like CWE and especially Tau, and these are some of the harder matchups for Quins IMO. On the other hand, Votan having super AoC may lead to more people bringing even heavier guns, which is almost always good for the clowns.
@@patinho5589 they won’t singly handedly change it. also on high volume low ap, burst cannons are crazy good
If that was true daemons would dominate
Honestly I think there is a small group of elite players that lift Harlequins but overall they have many counters that all based on stats beat Harlequins more often than not >50% win rates- Imperial Knights / Orks / Chaos Knights / Bile CSM / ETC. If the army got nerfed again I could definitely imagine a future where we see no one playing this faction.
It's a strange kind of terror when the last thing you'll hear is the diabolical cackles of the Laughing God!.
🎭🃏🏴☠️
A couple of points if you haven't played against Quin's before:
1. Luck of the Laughing God re-rolls are NOT the same as CP re-rolls. They can't be used on charge rolls, psychic tests or morale checks. Unlike a CP re-roll though, they CAN be used on units embarked in a transport, so fusion pistol drive-bys can benefit from them.
2. Flip belts are not the same as fly. Flip belts work when making a charge move, not just a regular move, advance or fall-back. This is a huge advantage, and makes screening Harlequins much harder. On the flip side (🤣), they do still suffer movement penalties for difficult terrain. The benefit of flip belts and the small base sizes on Harlequins make sabotaging heroic interventions very easy, so watch out for that. HI happens in the charge phase, and only if a model is not within engagement range of an enemy. This means a Harlequin player can get a model just within 1' of a character but also in engagement range of and closer to another enemy. The character can't HI, because it is already in engagement range. Then the harlequin activates first and piles into the closest unit and away from (and out of engagement range of) the character, who now can't HI and can't activate at all.
they can be used on psychic and stuff, it’s just you reroll one of the dices. Flip belts aren’t a thing anymore, and work on normal moves and advances.
@@web_082 literally the only thing that is correct in that statement is that technically flip belts are rolled into the 'hatlequin's panoply' rule, and so don't exist as a standalone rule. However:
1.Luck dice CAN NOT be used on charge and psychic tests. The ability specifies exactly what rolls it can be used on - quoting from page 144 of the codex: 'Each luck re-roll can be used to re-roll one hit roll, wound roll, damage roll, saving throw or advance roll made for a unit from your army with the Luck of the Laughing God ability'.
2. Flip belts are represented in the second bullet point of the Harlequin's panoply rule, which specifies 'each time this unit makes a normal move, advances, falls back OR MAKES A CHARGE MOVE, until that move is finished, models in this unit can move horizontally through models and terrain features . . .'
@@samhunter1205 the only things you can use luck rerolls for are hit wound save advance or damage roll that’s it no charge or psychic or number of hits none of that
@@Trinine9 yeah, that is basically what I said, although I didn't mention the number of shots, which I suppose could come up on shadowseer or skyweavers. My main point though is that they are NOT like cp - so many people seem to get confused by that, for reasons I have never understood.
Was I the only one who checked the date for this video
What? what's the catch?
@@ЭльдрадУльтран that Harlequins were the strongest for a while after the new codex came out, then were crushed with a massive nerf-hammer, after which the outcry fizzkled out, but it seems that despite this they're still incredibly good
Yup I checked it too. I used to play harlequins in the rogue Trader era and am coming back to 9th and heard there were some balance changes so I wanted up to date info! Thanks for this summary!
My only experience with harlequins was my deathwing being tabled and my opponent forgot about 200 points of models in deep strike. In summery 1800 points of harlequins tabled 2000 points of deathwing.
Still a fun game, despite the shelacking
how would quins table you? they have no offensive power
@@web_082 he shot and/or stabbed my guys, and rolled 3s then 5s and 6s then I rolled 1s and 2s and my models were removed. Same reason my bike captain with arbiters gaze, combi melta and thunder hammer charged into his troupe master and did 0 wounds then was immediately killed in return. Dice be like that sometimes.
So they're solitaire never made it into the field is what I'm hearing?
@@Jakkgusa no it was, it killed my bladeguard and apothecary then scrambled to an objective where it scored points for the rest of the game
From a painters views, I hate how few models Harlequins have compared to pretty much anyone else. It is one of the reasons I never picked them up; I chose Necrons and Tyranids, they have way more models to paint.
Thanks for making this video! I've been collecting Harleys for years (sadly, but painting) and love their style.
They have been the strongest army for anyone who knows how to properly play them since their codex came out.
The combo of picking behind enemy lines with the harlequin specific secondary is strong. There are 4 conditions to the harlequin secondary. If they remove the one condition about being in the enemy's deployment zone but keep the other 3 it will tone them down just enough without having to next units or change points.
Finally my Troupe Members get some love :)
I have an ongoing harlequins crusade and it is very fun
I actually love harlequinns having limited roster but doing so well
I guess it insulates them against nerfs to some extend. If they would nerf any of those few choices, the army would basically go from powerful to pitifully weak or borderline unplayable in an instant.
Wish GW would bring back the Mimes (Troops) and Master Mime (HQ) as well as Shadowseer Acolytes (Elites). Marionettes as Heavy Support.
@@Azoth86730 agreed, that would be nice - also a named character or two (that isn't part of the imperium)
@@darko-man8549 quins don’t have named characters due to their mysteriousness
You can not comprehend the sinister grin that's on my face, having ordered Harlequins last Friday on fluff alone.
You won't be disappointed.
Having so few units available is a bonus in this situation: get at least 1 of EVERYTHING and they'll make your list.
It's a lot of fun as Ynnari having all these options/flavor. Even if Ynnari has been getting sacked for the last for years, can't say I'll be giving it up. I even prefer having Harlequins within the ynnari banner rather than having them in their own patrol. Weaker than on their own, but the flavor is *chefs kiss*. With threads of fate and those extra vicious revenant spells, it's a lot of fun.
You can can only use strands of fate on units that have it on their Datasheet so only crafteorld units no quins
@@Trinine9 yup yup! Gosh it sucked when they lost it entirely lol. Well, at launch of the codex with the weird wording.
Their durability and speed is insane. I really don’t think people should be able go mid board, hide from nothing. Ignore the heaviest of shooting, and then score massive points. There is def something broken about a faction if they have a 59% win percentage and everyone else is hovering around 50% or below. There is a point where your rules are just better than other armies. I play Tau and we were broken as hell before indirect fire got nerfed. Now I expect harlequins to be reined in a lot compared to others now.
Finally a video long enough to fall asleep to
The Solitaire actually has Strength and toughness 4
Please! Do video about knights, chaos or imperial!
Ahh...yes, the better drukhari
Any pointers on using the “Traveling Players” rule for including just one attachment of them with an otherwise ordinary Craftworld list? Like what Craftworlds units they more clearly outclass? I’m a new player just starting Eldar (after like two years of watching you and battle reports so I’m not exactly the typical new player lol) and like Harlequins enough to do one detachment if it could work well, maybe instead of melee aespect warriors? I do love Shining spears so I’d rather use them than the Harlequin bikes and I also really like the models of Fire Prisms but Void weavers are def cool too so I’m looking at maybe a detachment with a Starweaver transport with Troops inside, and Void Reavers alongside it? Idk just thinking outloud… oh and how difficult do you think bringing their strength to bear would be for a player like me, compared to ordinary Craftworld’s units?
I know I’ve chosen a faction with a lot of synergies and that isn’t the easiest to learn for a new player but like I said due to my much greater knowledge of the game (and of Craftworlds) than a typical new player I’m pretty sure I can handle it, I’m also the type that remembers rules and strategems and the like pretty easily… however it’s still a concern of mine. Oh and one last question, Shadowseer vs Far Seer if I was to include one of them in my theoretic detachment of Harlequins? I’ve looked at the Shadow Seer powers and they do seem more tricky to use well than Farseer’s but I do really like the model and lore for the Shadowseer. Any unique specific synergies that the Shadowseer could bring to the table for ordinary Craftworlds units?I’d also consider the Solitaire, another cool model. Any tips would be appreciated!
Harlequins as an army have always been strong ever since their debut in September 1988 due to their super elite ultimate glass cannon army nature. Rogue Trader, 2nd Edition, 3rd Edition, Harlequins were always strong and steamrolling the tables under experienced players ever since. I miss 3rd Edition Harlequin Wraithlords.
I wish non-codex armies would get combat patrols.
Great video, but the solitarie has T4, and with “Prince of sins” you anyway subtract 2 from hit rolls (And they cannot be re-rolled) of the attacks made against him: his primary weakness in defence are his only 5W
Hit modifiers won't stack. It's -1 to hit at most, never -2.
@@liveac3694 ahhhh thanks, i did’t know this
@@liveac3694 They can stack, but the end result can't modify the roll by more than 1.
So, while in most cases it is going to, effectively, be -1, there will be cases where units with a +1 to hit buff will still end up only hitting at -1.
Imagine of you lightning fast him too so he is minus 3. Lol jokes
He actually only has a -1 in melee same as all harlequins that aren’t vehicles the prince of sins gives him a flat -1 to everything so he gets a -1 to ranged and -2 only in melee
All of a troupe masters pivotal roles are really strong the other one gives 2+ for wounds in melee
They are not clowns, they are the entire circus.
The thing is player who play this aren't new. They are people who have played for a long while maybe the 3rd army they are piloting. The skill ceiling is high with harlequins. So that means the win rate may be based on say 300 really good players vs the 10000 people who play a space marine of some sort. So the percentage win rate is not a good representation. Give a few troupe to a unskilled player and those 6 wound troupe are toast.
Bow down Mon'keigh!
Aeldari be like, do not underestimate S/T3 armies
who woulve thunk -1 to be hit, -1 to be wounded, no rerolls, 4++, very high mobility would be good? And people complained about custodes no reroll stratagem?
Slightly different. They’re not -1 to wound. And their vehicles are no hit re rolls. Custodes strat was any unit in the army to he no hit wound or dmg re rolls.
That was too OP
@@user-zh8dr1qt1s The Custodes stratagem is also only applicable to one unit per phase, and it costs CP.
Harlequins can get -1 to incoming wound rolls through an aura on a Shadowseer.
@@thetaomegatheta erm. It’s core. That’s two units in the codex. One of those units it can’t keep up with.
@@user-zh8dr1qt1s Troupes are a major mainstay of Harlequin lists. They are much better than most factions' troops.
The aura also applies to characters, which can be important, for example, for Solitaires, who have good chances of surviving melee retaliation.
I'm afraid you were also slightly incorrect on the Mirage Launchers - the Skyweavers and Starweavers have different versions. The -1 to hit is on ranged attacks only for Starweavers and melee only on Skyweavers. Otherwise top video - thanks for making it!
-1 to hit in melee on BIKERS is the "harlequin's mask" ability; also deny rerolls to hit for "skyveawer mirage launchers" ability. -1 to hit ranged/melee and deny rerolls to hit on VEHICLE is the "mirage launchers" ability.
I was not expecting this.
Send in the clowns.
Bought a harlequin army in 8th. Gave them all fusion pistols.
Very sadge.
Thanks!
Also the hardest army to paint well.
Literally this
Doing great work you are, keep it up.
harlequins are only good at secondaries but necrons are better at that and have higher damage output. they have a high win rate but very few bad players play the army
Yes, necrons are mostly played by beginners, while harlequins are never the first army a player buys.
@@Lothrean Necrons and space marines. Not a coincidence they're both in get started kits, eh?
It is like that with many games that have factions. There usually is one that is hard to do well in and deters noobs, but all the good players like it because it is rewarding and offers options the beginner friendly factions don't.
One other example is the PC military MMO game of "War Thunder". That has changed a bit, but for the first 5 years or so the game was mostly about WW2 era propeller aircraft fighting each other and it was separated into nation factions. The most beginner friendly factions where Americans (very fast, lots of fire power), Russians (good at everything, no wonder in a Russian game) and to a lesser extend British (very maneuverable with decent speed) and Japanese (very maneuverable and easy to fly, but rather slow).
Germans were very hard to do well in because their big strength was basically flight maneuver acrobatics. They weren't as fast as Americans or as maneuverable as Japanese and British, but they were good in vertical maneuvers. Doing loops and out-climbing the enemy and so on. You needed to know how to do advanced combat maneuvers and know the theories of air combat to do well in German planes, but those good players who knew their shit, could outclass every other faction when flying them and that exacerbated the problem, because those top ace players racked up huge win rates in German planes and so the developers kept nerfing German planes by increasing their repair costs and their battle rating (basically the War Thunder equivalent to Power Levels in 40k), so in the end when you flew German early war fighters you had to face late war or even post war fighters from the other factions, which made it ridiculously hard to play that faction for new or mediocre players.
@@TrangleC perfect explanation!
@@Lothrean Thanks. From my experiences with War Thunder and other comparable games, I'm afraid if they would nerf Harlequins, the top notch tournament players would probably still play them and still do well with them, but it would make them unplayable for regular and new players.
This sounds like the ideal army for me. I like elves. Their snobbish aloofness and overeducatedness. And if I lose I can just laugh. Call it a tragedy or tragicomedy and ask the opponent if he enjoyed the performance.
And I also consider myself quite pretty so you know elves really synergise with that
I’m thinking of getting some eldar, but I don’t know which I like more, wraith constructs and cool aspect warriors or clowns?
Wraith host - all day, every day. Models look the absolute bomb.
I would say Harlequins 100%, they are an absolute blast to play, whereas wraiths are pretty mono-dimensional and you may get bored of them. The only thing is Quin's are a massive ballache to paint, even if (like me) you don't do the pissing fiddly diamonds.
Why not ALL of them? 🤔
I have all eldar factions and if you like a army that takes a higher skill lvl to play well I would suggest quins but if you are just starting eldar crafworld is the better choice Dark eldar aren’t bad ether if you like the transport theme for your army
I still think that nids are stronger but the clowns are a close second
Ayy I would agree with you for the most part, since Nids can actually build different types of Armys. However, i feel like until the "High AP and High Dmg" meta for weapons does not change harlequins are just way better against that type of weaponry.
(But jeah, the moment GW fixes their AP values, and people take normal weapons again, Harlequins value will plummet to the ground, and will be no where near top tier)
@@holokom3330 in that regard yeah, but the huge mw output, the strenght and versatility of their hive fleet ( leviatan mostly) and the synapsis abilities all create a huge combos of strong rules that can easily destroy mid and low tier armies and put heavy blows on other top tiers
Strongest? Maybe not. Most consistent? Absolutely. Even with yo-yo-ing costs, not a ton has really changed for Harlequins.
Nope. Definetly the strongest
in the gim dark of the far future... the stringiest army is the prettiest..
How are they nearly always the best
Cuz mobility is the strongest stat in 40k
*laughs in space clown*
Because movement gives good players the most room to differentiate themselves from more average players, and Harlequins are probably the best mobility army. If a lot of people who haven't run them before give the faction a go, they find them quite hard - it is a low floor but very high ceiling army.
Me new to Warhammer: What language is he speaking?
Also me: ok seriously, where’s the translate button?
Given the available data, they do need toning down a bit. Not hard to do though. Just nudge points costs on Troupes and Starweavers up a wee bit and they'll probably be golden.
Maybe, although as other posters have said, Harlequins are benefitting very much from AoC and the general weakness of hordes at the moment. The main stuff that counters quin's very cheaply (mass low quality fire) isn't being run, which is an ideal meta for them. Any move in the meta and you will see them drop back without the need for any nerfs.
@@samhunter1205 I'm not buying that argument tbh. Let's balance for the current meta and not a theoretical meta where everyone runs Assault Cannons. 🤪
Honestly the whole line of thinking reminds me a lot of when Drukhari players were saying Drukhari didn't need nerfs, people needed to bring more Autocannons. It wasn't true then, and I don't believe it to be true now.
@@d.t.m8393 maybe. Quins are now in a difficult position to balance. Over-arching faction rules have been nerfed, but points nerfs are more difficult to manage well for an army with a very small selection of data sheets. I suppose a 1pt increase to troupes may not be the worst, it would have a modest impact on a lot of lists and more heavily punish the light Saedath trouoes-in-boats spam. But I do think it is wise to consider if a particular meta is heavily skewed and why, and what impact that is having on a relatively small data set. Also, it really should be remembered that win % is a very blunt measurement, and isn't necessarily that informative. Harlequins are a hard to play niche army, and tend to be taken to tournaments by experienced players. You might expect their win rate to be slightly overstated as a result.
@@samhunter1205 I don't think Quins are in a tough spot to balance at all actually. Their rules are by and large fine now, they feel and play like Harlies should. They just have a few too many units on the table atm.
Troupes up 2ppm and Starweavers up 5ppm and I bet they settle back in around the low 50s rather than the high 50s/low 60s. And I should point out that I'm not just making these claims based on WR alone. I do look at all the stats, including things like over-rep which have Harlies sitting at around 1.8x. As in, they place 1.8 times more than you'd expect given their player numbers. Such a high over-rep is another strong indicator of an overtuned faction(Custodes for example have a .5 over-rep, meaning they place half as much as you'd expect given the amount of games being played by them -a good indicator that they are actually struggling more than might be evident by their roughly 50% WR).
@@d.t.m8393 sure, Harlequins are certainly slightly overperfirming atm, we should be aiming for win rates of 45-55%. Maybe 2ppm for trouoes and 5 for starweavers would be fine, but again, I think some recognition of what AoC has done to the meta is merited. I suppose my perspective is partly as someone who deliberately doesn't play the most powerful subfraction, where I think the current points costs are fine. But points have to balanced against the most powerful rules until GW decide to either reign in the power of faction abilities or price units differently for them, which isn't going to happen. I guess we shall wait and see what happens
Votann still look very strong
They are part of the Aeldari faction now? Doesn't that give then more options when it comes to units?
Well yeah but then it wouldn't be Harlequins
@@priorityordersdiscarded7868 Haha! Right.
Aeldari are a super faction. They can ally, and there is a special rule for a Craftworld or Drukhari to take a single patrol of Quin's, but it isn't correct to say they 'have more units now'. In particular, you can't get access to their mono faction buff, luck if the laughing god, if you take any allied Aeldari.
I love the fluff.
i thought solitaire is T4?
Harlequins OP. Ban
e
The more things change the more they stay the same huh?
Let's ban them next! (seems that is the way things are done nowadays). If dwarves can't be kings.. why should petty elves always win? :D
Votann where gonna he much much stronger than harlequins. They deserved to be banned
Honk
Harls show everything that remains right in 40K. They don't get bloated like sisters with like 12 or 20 new unit bloat.
Just cry and ban them from events and they will be nerfed. Balance is easy now.
Better than having terribly unbalanced armies
@@antoninjanku3358 but we still do...
I feel you. It's ridiculous that Nids ran roughshod over the scene for 6 months and still haven't been toned down that much but Dwarfs don't even get all their models releases before they're hit with basically the biggest nerfs any army has *ever* seen
@@priorityordersdiscarded7868 Pretty much. I'm not saying that some nerfs werent warranted, but I think they went a bit too far, but theres been 70+% winrate armies for months. And from what I've heard, these aremies were trashing unnerfed LOV anyway. At least wait for results instead of listening to people that claim to have play tested for 6 weeks with rules leaked 3 weeks priot
Okay, you both made very good arguments! And I agree
Thanks for going over this. I get that these guys have crazy acrobatic skills and a fanatical philosophy, but should they be THIS strong in game, rising above Space Marines and other factions?
Well other questions: Why Should the main Factions be the strongest?
And its not like they are overtuned on Purpose like votann, they just always happend to be the most mobile "Sub-Faction" of all armys, and at the moment being mobile is way better than anything else. If the meta shifts more towards a "big Numbers Grind" they would drop hard in win rate.
@@holokom3330 interesting points. They have the appropriate skill sets, it just so happens that those skills make them the most effective at the game mechanics that matter.
They're basically the aeldari equivalent of custodes.
Seriously, the flavor of just jumping over everything, including buildings, or unloading from a transport to charge a unit only to then scurry back into the transport after fighting while laughing is the most unserious, childish way to play Warhammer and I'm all about it.
They need a nerf just annoying unfun to play against
That is in the eye of the beholder. Granted, I never played with or against them, because I just came back to the hobby after a 10 year hiatus, but I have played a lot between 3rd Edition and 6th Edition and I would say losing against one of those tricky glass hammer armies is less annoying than losing against one of those cheesy Space Marine lists that hides behind their thick armor and tons of special abilities that don't require finesse or brains to use.
Maybe now, currently Space Marines aren't particularly strong, but as someone who had to face those ridiculously overpowered Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights codices back in 5th Edition, I don't see a problem with the shoe being on the other foot for a while.
And back then there basically were no post release nerfs. When you got some overpowered Space Marine codex, you had to live with being stomped and basically reduced to a punching bag by and for those chosen factions for 4 or 5 years.
Nobody gave a shit about how people playing fragile Dark Eldar armies felt facing the spam of Dark Angels armies full of Terminators with missile launchers, or how that impacted their tournament results and whether whole factions just vanished from tournaments altogether for years.
Back then GW didn't really care about tournaments and subsequently they didn't really care about balancing.
Tournaments was just something the customers did among themselves but none of GW's business. A bit like BMW doesn't care whether the people buying their cars do street racing with them or not.
For the first time in the 35 year long history of this game, the fragile and fast glass hammer armies are doing well and are not just there so fluff-players can provide stuff to shoot to Space Marine players.
So for me as a time traveler from that era, those calls for nerfing Harlequins don't elicit much sympathy, I have to say.
Also, the fact that 40k has morphed into this tournament focused sporty game now means that fast armies with interesting special rules and abilities will always do better than beginner friendly Jack of all trades armies like Space Marines, because advanced top notch players naturally prefer the fast and tricky armies that give them more options and allow them to outplay their opponent instead of just relying on thick armor and throwing lots of dice at each other in some simplistic slug fest.
I think that is the real reason why Space Marines aren't doing so well and it has less to do with actual balancing between the codices.
It is a phenomenon that is universal to all competitive games. Top notch players always prefer the fast stuff because they rather rely on their skills than on armor to stay alive.
Look at a MMO PC game like "World Of Tanks" for example. All the newbees and mediocre players lumber around in thickly armored Heavy Tanks, while all the elite players buzz around in fragile but fast Light Tanks.
Nerfing Harlequins won't change that fundamental rule.
Space Marines are inherently a beginner friendly heavily armored faction and as such they will always have a glass ceiling to what they can do, unless GW fucks up totally and makes them ridiculously OP, which would ruin the tournament focused sports thing they have going now.
As long as the game stays focused on tournament play, Space Marines will remain a noob faction and no nerfs to any other faction will change that.
The army is flat out broken. The just run up the board and obliterate everything.
@@georgestauber2636 how many mortal wounds can your army put out in a turn you need to deal more when you bring 2,000 points of Eldar you don't have that many wounds on the table if you just hit the troop squads with like some spore mines they're gone
Its them and Tau but Harlequins beats Tau.
I mean it is appropriate that one of the most powerful armies in this stupid game is a bunch of clowns.
Death Jester cannot firing from light starweavers. From Starweavers can be shoot Pistols only. DJ have Shrieker Cannon with Assault profile. And Solitaire has Т4.
Nope. If the Starweaver has a model/models embarked upon it, those models can shoot out irrespective of if they're equipped with pistols or not. The only exception is if it's locked in combat.
Yeah, flat wrong on the DJ. Starweavers have open-topped, you can shoot anything out of them.