Just realizing how heavily Roderika parallels Marika. I mean the grafting and the Shaman jars, the spirit tuning, the hair, the relationship with Hewg...
Roderika is probably the representation of a younger Marika when she just a shaman growing into confidence of herself. Hell she carries the last four letters of Marika’s name! A once meek girl losing all the people she loved to have to a flesh ritual. After being help from an outside force finds a power that she can use and learns to have self confidence. But this is where I feel Roderika and Marika paths diverge.
I love the idea that Marika herself was just a successful jar saint. It explains why she was able to rise to such a prominent position in the hornsent civilization despite her not being one of them, they probably viewed her as their ultimate achievement of creating their own divine beings (we know that the hornsent were an extremely proud and arrogant people). Only for her to pull an eclipse on them at the top of the gate of divinity and ascend to true godhood by way of slaughtering the people who put her in that position out of revenge. This would also explain why the hornsent considered what Marika did a “betrayal” they genuinely thought they were doing Marika and the shamans a favor by subjecting them to this awful ritual. Really chilling stuff.
A little point. Japanese translation calls the jar saint not in a holy way, but in a "nice person" way. So, nothing holy and no ascention, it was just a punishment with a nice excuse. Even because Shamans are just a key ingredient, the prisoners are the proper victim of the jars. (Of course they are all victims, but in this way Shamas weren't even seen as humans.)
St Trina's death is alot like a flower in nature with her being removed from the body of Miquella like a flower being plucked from it's roots, it's slowly wilting and withering away.
My favorite two Radagon theories: 1) Radagon was melded into Marika during a jar saint ritual. 2) Much like Miquella and St. Trina, Radagon was always a part of Marika, but she then cast him away because she saw him as detrimental to her apotheosis. Later again they merged (voluntarily or not).
Or also to do a trick. To rule you need a God and a Elden Lord, and i think Marika didn't really want to share power with others, so why not put herself as both Elden Lord and God? Even because he's called King Consort, a role less important than QUEEN. Ps. Jar saint is a mistransaltion. They are not saint as Holy or a try to ascention, is Saint as Good Person. Literally is a punishment to make people "better person." when in reality was just a torture for prisoners.
The "merging again" part is whats lacking. Theres is never any precedent of that happening in game. They never hinted at any "merging back after casting out your other half".
@@KodFrostwrath Umm... they HAD to merge, to be in the state we find them in during the game. The game 'does' say that Radagon left Rennala and returned to the Erdtree, to be with Marika. The notion that they had a 4-way marriage was debunked by the DLC by including St. Trina and Miquella separately.
My headcanon is that Radagon, be him an artificial Lord (like Silver Tears) or a random Zamor, houses the soul of the Fell God... that's the only way i see him wielding the Flame and "hating his own red locks". I know it's probably not correct, but THERE HAS TO BE MORE ABOUT RADAGON OTHER THAT "ASPECT OF MARIKA".
As of the release of Elden Ring, Queen Marika is my favorite Fromsoft character. She's done inspirational and horrifying things both, caused wide scale devastation in shattering the Elden Ring, and yet she did so because she's oh so very human.
She was so human, in good and bad way. A lot bad. Mostly bad. Also, is cool how technically she's "dead" during all the game but she guide us more than Gwyn during Dark Souls.
If it matters, the Nox in the games files are called Marika Lineage, and the eternal cities are called Marika Ruins. In the one point oh version of the game, they were called the Empyrean Family as well, also Diallos drops a Numen rune, and many Numen runes are found along the Ainsel, I think theres another one hanging off the side of the Divine Tower of Caelid, I'm not sure if theres more but its clearly not JUST Marika and the Black Knives.
Possibly Diallos is a descendant and Roderika too. Also, Numen is a world about Light, while Nox is about Night-Dark, so possibly Nox are a piece of Numen who hated GW and, as rebellion, they cover their golden eyes.
No but I'm actually convinced literally everyone we meet (not literally sorry but ranni melina melenia miquella etc) all are fractures or aspects of Marika and she like the "one great" was one entity that split into many
I believe that the main reason that Marika sought death is because of how the fingers and metyr are broken. If they had already lost connection to the greater will by the time Marika was chosen, the last message must have been something like “select and empyrean and create a god” and the fingers have been repeating that ever since. But rather than divesting herself like Miquella, she bonded herself to the elden ring to acquire godhood, so when more empyreans are chosen, it flies in the face of what she was told by her two fingers, and fundamentally upsets the foundation of her godhood and her belief in her own divinity. She ultimately decided she was functionally imprisoned and sought death. Coincidentally, Ranni’s plans exposed the flaws of her order, so she shattered herself to create turmoil from witch Ranni could arise as the new god and allow marika’s death, but Radagon and Radahn ruined that. So she still wants Ranni to succeed her, despite Ranni killing godwyn, as it’s her best chance of actually dying
for the St-Trina's parallel. When we kill MIquella's soul, St-Trina dies. They can exist separately but they are indeed one and the same and different character at the same time.
I think d is parallel to Marika Miquella is one soul two mind, but d is two souls, one body When miquella die st trina also die But when D died, his brother took control the body
Interesting to talk about translations from Japanese. If George RR Martin wrote the foundation of Elden Ring initially, that means Elden Ring was written in English, translated into Japanese, FromSoftware writes what happened next, then the notes in game are translated back to English. If you've ever done an exercise of translating from one language, then back to another, then back again, you'll know how crazy a concept can sound in the end lol
Even because a lot of rules of Elden Ring are related to Buddhism and Shintoism, so english rules created by japanese culture, translated in japanese and then again in english. Even just "Time is Convoluted" in Dark souls changed all the plot.
GRRM didn't write anything related to the actual game plot as it is, he simply wrote a bunch of mythos which then were twisted and tweaked by Miyazaki to his liking. So the original language is always Japanese.
@@padrenuestreMartin said it in itw, he litteraly wrote what is the elden ring, what are the runes, and all the shattering war era, if that's not directly related to the actual game plot i don't know what game you did play but it wasn't Elden Ring
@@MilesRavis so? What you're saying doesn't contradict my words. Whatever GRRM provided was altered to Fromsoft liking, he wasn't involved with the actual game plot, he only wrote the myths (which like you said most likely included the runes, Erdtree, Elden Ring and why not), the barebones for Miyzaki's inspiration.
There's a quote from Marika that Melina says that makes me thik Radagon and Marika werent always one entity "O Radagon, leal hound of the golden order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god"
What about the line that literally comes after it? "Let us be shattered, both, mine other self?" I mean, the two of them being separated entities that later fused is still a valid theory. I just find it jarring that some people tend to leave that part of the quote out when using it as evidence to support that theory.
I think the DLC pretty much answers this, without saying it directly. They very much seem to have been two separate people who even had 2 children before becoming one person. And it's also hinted at that they separated at some point again, and then joined as one once again when they married.
So, my interpretation of this dialogue is that Marika is still the dominant personality in control of their shared body. Marika is still the god, and she is talking to Radagon, who has yet to become the dominant personality and seize Marika's godhood. Radagon is a part of Marika(Mine other self) but isn't a god yet. I believe Radagon and Marika have come into conflict with each other(see the shattering of Eldne Ring cinematic) and are wrestling ea h other for control of the godly body they share. When Marika was speaking to Radagon "the leal hound of the Golden Order" in this dialogue, she is still mostly in control of their shared body, but Radagon has plans to take complete control of their shared body and take Marika's place as the god. She tells him that she will shatter the Elden Ring and therefore shatter both herself and Radagon. By the time we make it into the Erdtree, Radagon is fully in control or, at the very least, he is now the more dominant personality. Marika knew what Radagon was up to and that this hostile takeover of her godly flesh would eventually come to be, so she shattered the Elden Ring/Golden Order and set up an elaborate plan to bring the Tarnished back as a final gamble to kill the now in control god Radagon and free herself from the "cage" of godhood. She even enslaved a blacksmith named Hewg and cursed him with the task of creating a weapon capable of killing a god(Radagon and herself) for her returned Tarnished warriors(including the ultimate Chad and her Warlord ex-consort Godfrey.
@@shellshocksound I forgot that was the last bit of it, but Darian and Devin seem to be in a similar situation where they share the same soul but they don't act as one entity per se, maybe Marika and Radagon share 1 soul but were born separate and merged later
I wish there was just a brief flashback cutscene of Marika's last trip to the Shaman Village when you grab the Minor Erdtree incantation or the Golden Braid. I wouldn't even need dialogue or a view of her face. I get why they didn't do it, though.
We need a (good, non-propaganda-ridden) animated TV series about the events that take place before the game, honestly. Imagine getting the entire Marika backstory, Shattering civil war, and the series ending after Malenia and Radahn end up failing to win the war, getting an epilogue of the state of the Lands Between, and a teaser of the Tarnished who would become Lord and ending it there.
@cincameron I see where you're coming from, although I'm not sure why you felt the need to include that bit in the parentheses. I want more answers and a part of me wants the exact anime prequel you suggested, too. I would just hate to get answers I don't like. At least our minds are free to speculate.
@@vincentlorusso689 A lot of TV shows lately decide to focus on marketing that's related to current controversial topics instead of just focusing on the fantasy world. That's what I mean. I don't think anyone wants an Elden Ring show to end up being like Rings of Power or Acolyte.
Queen Marika won Elden Ring. She got out. We're living in the aftermath of that victory, where Radagon is trying to keep the game going long, while the Silver Mimic that was constructed in Marika's place refuses to play along with the deception any further.
Won my ass she is currently trapped inside the Erdtree hoping that the Tarnished can even breach the damn thing, even if only to fall to the Elden Beast.
@@Skintopster What's left of her is locked inside the Erd Tree. We never meet Marika. We only ever see the parts of her that she leaves behind. She is unattainable.
My belief is that Marika was the only successful Jar Saint due to the ingredients she was bonded with, that being something to do with each of the outer cosmic forces. Embodying every force made her already divine, and then these traits are later inherited by her children. Melenia=God of Rot, Godwyn= Greater Will, Messmer=Abyssal Serpent, Melina= Death Bird, Ranni= Dark Moon, and so on. The ritual she performed at the top of the tower was not just her claiming godhood, it was her creating a new Great Rune to serve as the foundation of the Elden Ring so it could never be separated from her. The seduction was her beseeching the Greater Will for power to create a new order and a new world suited to her vision. She believed that her new world would be beautiful and wanted it to be eternal so she would never lose anyone she loved ever again. And so she plucked the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring during the ritual at the tower after the slaughter of the Hornsent. This was the betrayal that caused the Greater Will to forsake the Lands Between. When Ranni stole a fragment of the Rune of Death and killed Godwyn with it, Marika snapped and broke herself and the world because none of her past efforts mattered. I believe at the moment we unseal the rune of death again that is the time that Marika physically dies, but not the Radagon half. I believe her spirit is the Guidance of Grace and she is guiding only those capable enough to make a new order. At the end we can still use her shattered body despite her death as the vessel of the Elden Ring, or we can choose another path such as Ranni dissolving Marika entirely.
But if this is the case the godskin godhunt would have been before this as the gloam eyed queen was in control of the rune of death and was chosen by the fingers (it never explicitly says 2 or 3 fingers chose her) as an empyrean. Just an interesting thought that the story gets a bit more challenging with timelines since SOTE
I always thought that Marika unintentionally got Godwyn killed by letting Ranni get a piece of the rune of death. This would make her responsible! I just dont see why she would let Godwyn die if she knew it was going to be him.
9:34 while this is true explicitly, it seems to be implied that Diallos Hoslow is Numen because of his item drop at the end of his questline. Marika's story in the DLC is also a tale told with a lot of blood
17:47 Also, if she wanted us to defeat Ranni instead of helping her, you’d assume we would no longer be able to see the grace at a certain point in Ranni’s quest.
I think that's more of a mechanical aid for the player to not get lost, so in lore the player's wants and desires are guided by the grace which at that point are to help ranni, so the guidance of grace points to what will help us achieve our goals
The point about Ranni potentially being an Empyrean because of her mastery over spiritual skills is a genuinely fantastic insight, and she is the one who gives you the spirit calling bell too, it fits so well as speculation! It really would explain why she is the only Empyrean besides the twin prodigies who have the game clearly explain why they have that special status, and it also shows the importance of being able to transcend through spiritual power essentially being a necessity to attain apotheosis (as Miquella also shows), tying into Marika's unique status as a Shaman/Miko, something that was also likely a characteristic the Numen possessed more than anyone else, when you consider the etymology behind the name and the information we get about them in the lore. I do wish Shadow of the Erdtree had a description or two outright using the term "Numen," it could have helped tie a lot of theorization together narratively. Oh well. Another great video as usual!
I'm sure Tarnished Archaeologist will eventually do a whole video about this, but the overt Babylonian imagery of the Hornsent and Ancient Dynasty civilizations makes me certain that the devs want us to identify young Marika with Inanna/Ishtar: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna Ishtar, tellingly, is both a goddess of love AND war. Given her association with abundance and the language used around her, I feel confident that Marika rose to power as the leader of some kind of fertility cult in Hornsent society (with all the sexual impropriety that implies). Eventually, she gathered enough influence to carry out a scheme that would lead to her ascension as a god and the birth of the Erdtree. After that, well...we know how the war goddess bit came into play. Elden Ring to a large degree is a fantasy version of real-world Western history and mythology. Ishtar has long been an obsession for anthropologists for the way she persisted throughout different civilizations, with many arguing that she eventually became or merged with the Greek Aphrodite. Marika herself remains a consistent object of worship in Elden Ring even as the world changes around her.
8:19 There is more evidence supporting that the Black Knives serve Miquella because they are guarding the haligtree alongside the alburnics. Now, Ranni betrayed them and Miquella. Godwyn was supposed to have a proper death as a martyr according to the finger maiden in his zone. If not Radahn, then it was Godwyn he wanted to die a true death, for the eclipse. But Ranni didn’t tell them she only gave half of the rune, that the victims of the black knives were ALL killed with half of that death rune. Remember, the tarnished completes the rune of death meaning no one else did 16:57 And Rennala would have been essential for this. Evolving and adapting, if we defeat every boss…only three carians are left standing (well…rykard’s head is technically laying down). Making Rennala the rightful ruler of the lands between in the stars ending
I agree with you that Marika wanted to die. There was probably a desire to sever the connection of the greater will, and maybe she thought shattering the Elden Ring would accomplish both. That's also why she had Godwyn merked, she knew he was likely going to be the next to ascend and she wanted to spare him her fate. It was a mercy. At least, she thought it was.
Problem is nothing in game say that Godwyn was an Empyrean. And, if that was mercy, why dont just kill him instead of an eternity of not-life not-death? That sounds a little worse than Godhood.
@@themaniae4803 Godwyn himself is not undead, his soul was destroyed by Ranni, everything that made him Godwyn was killed by destined death. The body that is still alive and deformed/mutated beyond belief is not Godwyn, just his body.
13:10 I have wondered why Godfrey attacks us here. Going by the (I think) generally accepted theory that the Tarnished were originally an army that followed Godfrey into the unknown, you would think our character would immediately recognize him as their former Lord and Commander and acknowledge him as such.
He is but every tarnished has been risen by Marika and they all are rivaling for the throne and bringing new age. Godfrey is also pissed about Morgott dying when we meet him so him acknowledging Tarnished doesn't matter to him that much. That's also the whole reason why tarnished like Gideon try to out you if you find something interesting or conflict with plan of bringing age they want.
Think this. Tarnished are the ex army of Godfrey, yes, but ORIGINAL TARNISHED. We are descendant of them. Centuries or Millenials are passed and, as the game say, once all Tarnished were warriors, then other classes started to appear. (Clerics, Deathbed companions, Sorcerers. Gideon looks everything than a Warrior.) Even because we find an Ancient Tarnished, one who really was in Godfrey's army, Istvan (The one who help us in Demihumans cave and then we kill during Volcano Manor Quest)
The crazy thing about Marika is that what do we know about her actions that was her actual decision and not by the influence of Metyr or the Elden Beast? There is so much speculation about her and not one of us truly knows what she was like when she was still functioning.
It's very difficult. Metyr was hidden away who knows how long, while the Elden Beast as far as we know only awakened when we entered the arena and began to manipulate Radagon. Following the logic of the runes that we see with Fia, Dungeater and Goldmask, a rune is born from the death of someone, so it wouldn't be strange to think that Elden Ring was born from the death of the Elden Beast and remained dormant until Marika hurt it. Also, it would be very anticlimactic to find out that Marika was manipulated/possessed by others. The beauty of her character is that, for better or worse, she was very human.
The black knife assassines are like the furies in greek mythology , since their captain is named Allecto they punish criminals and enact revenge , they dont have any particular loyalty
I always thought Radagon and Marika were one being for two specific reasons: 1. Ranni was an empyrean and had to shed her body because she hated being tied to the two fingers. Makes more sense that she was born into divinity, hence why her body was 'tainted' by the two fingers from the beginning. 2. The big turtle says that it was weird how Radagon was called back to the capital to become the 2nd elden lord when he was just a champion. Either Marika wanted his knowledge of the stars and picked him, or she wanted that knowledge and specifically sent him to learn more about the stars (and then come back and include intelligence into the golden order fundamentalism).
For the n.2: She probably called him back because she needs a Elden Lord because Magic says you rule only with an Elden Lord... and that was a great move, because she is also God and Elden Lord and she can rule without other will than hers. (Not a case Godfrey is called King in japanese, while Radagon King Consort, someone NOT at the same level of the Queen.)
You never miss Professor Brett. I am so glad I found your channel because you expand on so much lore not just for Elden Ring, but GOW and The Last of Us, etc. You are the GOAT fr
19:29 And taking in consideration that you meet the mother of fingers in the DLC who is suppose to rely the messages from the greater will to the fingers and you learnt that to begin with she or it has lost its connection to the greater will meaning that the mother was who was giving orders to the fingers and not the greater will it makes everything even more confusing.
16:15 there’s a very unique relationship status represented by that “/“. Not that of a step mother being so close to their step daughter that you can equate it to a biological relationship, but literally being both a biological and step child lol
On the topic of the hornsent. What if they did stuff her in a jar, and whatever ritual they were doing actually worked and what emerged was a Marika with a connection to the Greater will and a split personality, Radagon. One of the topics this game teased and didn't really go too far with was the practice of Grafting, you see it at the start and then a few enemies but the only other time you'd actually encounter a sort of grafting was the ritual the hornsent were doing by putting people inside of jars. What if Marika had been grafted Radagon only to later split with him during the Carian uprising?
Jar saint is a mistranlastion. They are not Saint in a Holy and Trascendental way, but Saint as Good person. Jars were just a torture for prisoners with the """holy excuses""" to turn them into better people. After all is a culture of Inquisitors, i bet they did a lot of bad things to their own people.
In the Black knives armor set: "Traces of power yet remain in its CONCEALED VEIL, which MUFFLES the SOUND of footsteps." Assassin's Gambit: "Grants near INVISIBILITY and SILENCES footsteps." Assassin's Approach: very similar but the description includes "Incantation of the TWO FINGERS' SERVANTS, who ONCE SERVED as assassins for the ROUNDTABLE HOLD. The assassins were charged with ELIMINATING TARNISHED who had STRAYED FROM GRACE." I dont know what this means yet or if theres more connections... but I bet theres something there besides Ranni and Rykard's involvment (You buy the Assassins Gambit in Gelmer from Bernahl... the RECUSANT, who was considered a CHAMPION (like Godfrey?) capable of becoming a LORD until his maiden threw herself into "the" fire. so... we have a former Lord-to-be turned enemy/blasphemer who supplies the enemies of the Two Fingers WITH incantations stolen FROM the Two Fingers who may have supplied the Dark Knife Assassins under the guidance of... who? The most likely answer is either Ranni or Rykard but again... If Marika is involved in the given order, she may have just GIVEN the damn things to Bernahl so the Night of Black Knives could happen, setting it all in motion. maybe?
I just realized, Ranni and Marika are the only two Empyrians that we see have shadows, so did Malenia and Miquella get shadows that were eventually discarded or died, or did the the two fingers favor Ranni in a way?
Interesting observation. I'll also add that Miquella is the only one of the empyrians that has an other self, Trina. And Malenia's great rune description states that "...her Great Rune should have been the most sacred of all." So maybe, in a way, all 3 empyrian children were imperfect, part of the whole that Marika was, that is - possesing the greatest rune of the elden ring, having an other self, and a shadow granted by the fingers.
Perhaps their lack of Shadows could be considered a sign of lack of favour from the Greater Will; Malenia is born a vessel of Rot (an outer god opposed to the Greater Will) and Miquella is perpetually "immature" (an incomplete vessel) Otherwise, the presence of a Shadow could be an exclusive sign of favour (a distinction akin to being declared *the* Crown Princess, rather than *just* a Prince)
@@arghscuffelbut3226 did the two fingers even chose Miq and Malenia like they did Ranni and Marika or were they granted an Empyrean status "automatically" because they were born from a single god?
I loved the commentary about the black knifes. About ranni, I often leave her dead, rather than put a ring on her, right after she slays her own 2 fingers.
I believe Marika seduced the hornsent with the promise of Power; she was a Miko, one of the people who were connected to the spiritual, and the hornsent were OBSESSED with their pursuit of Godhood. Perhaps she showed them the way to the ritual, to the construction of the gate of divinity, guided by the secrets of the finger ruins, or perhaps with simply the spiritual knowledge of her people. I believe she told them what they wanted to hear; that she could bring them divinity. But when she led the ritual, she only brought it to herself, crafting her Great Rune.
Just from what I believe: 1) I think Marika shattered the Elden Ring because of a multitude of reasons. But there's three big things that could have triggered this. First, the death of Godwyn (assuming she was betrayed by her fellow Numen) would have devastated her. She wanted an Age with no death, perhaps desiring some form of "heaven" for her chosen society--after subjugating everything that didn't represent her ideal order, of course... And she lost her son and discovered the Rune of Death was being used. Second, she at some point delved into trying to better understand the Order they served... She likely discovered the Two Fingers (and maybe the Elden Beast) were lying about receiving Guidance from the Greater Will, thus she was acting on their whims. I could see this infuriating her. Lastly, I believe Radagon attempted to usurp Marika by taking over her body... For context, I do not believe Radagon was originally part of Marika, nor do I believe Marika was a Jar Saint (I'll get into that in a later topic), but Radagon aspired to become complete, and we know he worshipped the Golden Order obsessively, maybe even greedily. Taking Marika's body would make him "perfect" in his perspective, I think... As a result, Marika plotted to have Hewg craft a weapon to slay Radagon and the Elden Beast in the event she fails and would require one of her demigod children to slay Radagon... Or if even that fails, call upon the Tarnished, which lines up for me. 2) Radagon's existence is still the biggest mystery in the story. People believe he was cut off from Marika, or just an alternate personality, but I do believe this all relies too much on imagination. I instead believe he was born from the Warrior Jars that were being used after Marika's ascension. It would explain a great number of anomalies revolving around him, especially his and Marika's children. He has red locks which are associated with Fire Giants, and he inherited their smithing abilities in some way, but he seems humanoid... Also, it is likely during the final boss, HIS body was the vessel for Marika and the Elden Ring, explaining his stone-like body being similar to the Jars and Silver Tears (Perhaps a connection to the Ancient Dragons since the Nox seemed interested in their traits). All of the Warrior Jars aspire to become a great champion. Radagon became the Champion of the Golden Order before assaulting Liurnia. I believe he was born somewhere between the long period after the Fire Giants were slaughtered and obviously before the Liurnian Wars. As for his children with Marika, aspects of himself are taken from other beings, and likely his genetics would have a strange effect with Marika's. It would also explain why the children are all touched by some Outer God's curse. Messmer via something adjacent to Giant's Flame and a Serpent, Melina by Destined Death (which is sealed, so it's not apparent until the Rune of Death is unbound and she is still alive), Miquella by whatever gave him Nascence (resulting in St. Trina), and Malenia via the Rot God. 3) This is impossible to say for certain because we don't know what happened at what time with 100% certainty, but I believe Marika was brought to the top of Enir Ilem with the Hornsent intending to turn her into a Jar Saint, but Marika ended up using Maliketh (and perhaps Hoarah Loux) to slaughter everyone (both would have been in her service by now since she's ascending to Godhood minutes later). Marika used the Tower Folk to create the Divine Gateway and stripped grace/rune arcs from the corpses and then communed with the Elden Beast to become the bearer of the Elden Ring. The rest of the Hornsent would not know what happened during this event since all witnesses are dead or loyal to Marika at this point, so it would make sense for them to just assume she became their saint, when it was all just a lie. Why else would the Hornsent assist Marika's reign for so long until after Godfrey and the Tarnished were banished? It makes sense to me, idk. 4) I don't think Marika planned the Night of the Black Knives. I believe this was solely a Ranni and Melina incident. BUT the time-frame of the plot is unclear because Rogier suggests the Rune of Death was swiped a long time before Godwyn's murder, but an item suggests it may have happened over one night. Assuming the former, Melina attempting to burn the Erdtree allows one to travel to Farum Azula, so either Ranni took advantage of Melina's attempt to burn the tree to take a fragment of the rune of death. Since Destined Death wasn't fully released, the tree remained mostly unharmed, but this would've prompted Marika to imprison Melina (what's left of her, anyways). As for the Numen women who assassinated Godwyn, they probably realized Marika had gone mad from her quest of revenge and thus attempted to undermine her by slaying her first-born. But Ranni fumbled this idea by performing the black knife ritual on herself simultaneously to kill her body while only Godwyn's soul was killed. And as a side-note, I believe this event might have been the reason why the Nox were sent underground. They earned the ire of the Greater Will, and the Fingerslaying blade is said to have been born from a corpse and was a result of "high treason". Thus, Marika sent the Numen underground as punishment for killing her son. I'm skipping a lot of the topics because I think I somewhat answered them from my point of view (which is probably completely wrong, but hey). 5) Godfrey's origin is a mystery, but with the dlc, we can probably assume he was a Highland warrior who was searching for a powerful beast to defeat in combat. He likely hunted the Great (Red) Bears. His fighting style as Hoarah Loux does resemble the bear-claw swipes, uplifting the ground, and the bear roar. Him defeating a powerful Great Bear may have earned him respect from Serosh and the Hornsent, elevating him to a high status in their society, and thus an ideal spouse for Marika's ascension. I didn't mean to make a wall of text, but even so I feel like I condensed everything a lot, so most of my claims may just seem outright insane, but hey... I'm not taking hours to explain my flimsy opinion LOL
i think radigon is like a created machine gohlum that marika can use as a physical body but when she used him the "greater will" gave him life and his own will, but merika could still control him but so could himself which left him with the internal conflict of life and death which is why all their kids are both alive and dead
31:35 it’s amazing that there’s enough evidence to go both ways, it feels like we’re looking through the history of this foreign world through a bystander which is so cool
The 1.00 description of the nox monk hood said that the Nox are descendants of Queen Marika but, even without that description Gowry says that Sellians are descendants of the Eternal (presumably of Queen Marika the Eternal). So, Sellians have night sorceries which are associated with the Eternal City and Rogier says that the Black Knives were their scions. Putting that information with the description of the BKA armor then perhaps the ties they have with Marika are blood related.
I’ve always theorized that Marika was playing 4D chess throughout our playthrough. Now that we’ve played the dlc and got more info this theory can be further supported. After realizing the error of her ways in attaining godhood as well as the greater will, Marika realized the fallacy of her order and decided to scrape it all. We know Marika has a by any means necessary type of action so she was willing to gamble it all in this long term plan of stopping her while also getting rid of the greater will/outer god all together. We dub it as Marika crashing out but I think she saw this as the only way of getting rid of the outer god, especially since the erdtree was basically a parasite. Which also relates to her involvement in the night of black knives. Ranni was also apart of the plan as well but that’s for another day. I think this theory is pretty strong and can be backed up since the varying perspectives correlate. We know Marika constructed an elaborate scheme as for what it’s not clear but she started something and wanted to make sure it was finished by any means necessary 🤷🏿
one thing to note about Miquella and Marika mirroring each other that i don't think you have considered is that while yes, Miquella and Trina have always existed alongside one another, that doesn't necessitate the same for Marika and Radagon. Marika has produced multiple offspring with a dual nature, Miquella, Malenia, Messmer, and arguably Melina and/or Ranni. Save for Ranni, the other four are either confirmed or heavily implied to be children specifically born of the single-god union of Radagon/Marika, so they likely "inherited" dual natures as a sort of recessive gene where her other children did not due to a "dominant" nature of being born normally giving them normal natures. While her children born with dual natures likely inherited this trait it doesn't necessitate that she went through the same process so theories like the jar theory or her being changed at the gate of divinity still hold water unless we can find evidence of Radagon being active or expressed before Marika's ascension. In fact, given his notable absence as a character in the DLC, I can't help but feel that he was formed after or contemporary with her ascension.
9:10 I’ve always held the headcanon that the Black Knives were betrayed. By Ranni or Marika or even both, then they simply all splintered and chose their own allegiances. Some of them stuck with Marika, while other chose to attempt revenge, some even simply wander with no true purpose.
There is another connection between the Hornsent and Marika, specifically through the Specimen Storage Room. While we can superficially link the tablets stored there to those in Marika’s bedchamber, the connection runs much deeper than most people realize. The Black Keep consists of two parts: the newly built Messmer Keep and the older storage room. The symbol we see atop the storage room is also part of Messmer’s emblem, which combines both his fire insignia and the symbol of the storage room. In addition to the specimens and tablets, we frequently encounter Hornsent ghosts who, even in death, continue to manage the collection within the storage room. We can infer their purpose from other sources that describe Hornsent archaeological studies in ancient Rauth. The Horned Warriors we encounter in Rauth and the Dancing Lion are part of an expeditionary force tasked with retrieving artifacts from Rauth to be studied by the Hornsent scholars-scholars who were ultimately murdered during the crusade. The presence of both stone tablets and scrolls made from birch bark suggests that they were actively translating these artifacts. One of the translated texts, which reveals the prophecy of Miquella, suggests that the tablets and scrolls hold similar prophetic significance. This explains why Marika has them in her bedchamber; she was studying ancient Rauth lore to gain insight into the future. It seems likely that Messmer and the Hornsent had a scientific cooperation agreement, aiming to learn more about the Crucible, prophecy, and Rauth in general. However, after Marika ordered Messmer to eliminate them, the Fire Knights simply executed all the researchers.
I really like your video about queen marika , the best part is the comments triggered by you, just to know how the fans see a character in different POVs but the evidances is still the same is a sign shows to me that the story tellling in this game are far more superior and geniuse then any average works out there either it is a game movie or story ..love to see it keep up the good work.
I think the point is to put us in their place and, from imperfect original conditions, make us decide what we should do. Marika is like The Joker, telling us we too would bring about an imperfect Era, for reasons beyond our control.
My favorite pet theory is that there is no "greater will". It's something people attribute events to, but there's no actual entity behind it. The Elden Ring, the god of Rot, Metyr, the onyx and alabaster lords, Astel, the fallingstar beasts, the formless mother, the flame of frenzy, the crucible, etc., these are all basically space aliens. They're powerful beings whose abilities, motivations and logic we may never truly understand.
One theory I favor is that Ranni specifically targeted Godwin for assassination because Ranni was selected by Marika to be her heir, and Godwin was selected to be her Elden Lord. Ranni, of course, rejects being a puppet god of the current order and thus takes measures to ensure the proposed inheritance doesn't occur. Ranni does want to rule, but only by her own system and not the broken system she grew up in.
I firmly think that Radagon and Marika used the Rune of the Unborn to create a body for Radagon. When he gave that to Rennala he merged back into Marika. Rennala was truly in love with him and knows that egg was essentially his body and she carries it always as the last remnant of him that's separate from her love.
I really love Frat butt's analysis video it always expands our minds in thinking a different perspective that is off yet still makes sense It's complex
Great observation about the grace site that appears after Ranni leaves. I never thought about how the grace lines were used before and it got me thinking. I don’t Marika wants us to help Ranni. The way I see it, Marika uses those lines to point us in the direction of something she wants us to kill, or to lead us to a great rune. Hard to know which one since we always kill whatever is there and take the rune. Lol. But except in Ranni’s case. Which makes me think Marika wants us to kill Ranni, or she never discarded her great rune to begin with and in fact still has it in her possession.
1-Godwyn's death=Deathblight and Those who live in death everywhere and the break of the "perfect cicle" of eternal life created by Marika, all her direct children cursed or dead, 2 of her half's children starting to rebelling against the sistem and Miquella/Malenia doing their things, 3 empyrean=Fingers maybe wants to push her aside, Radagon taking more and more power.... as Ranni says, she was pushed at her limit. 2-Yeah, and just want to add a point. Saint Trina possibly looks so... less complete because she was torn apart by Miquella, while Radagon was separated in a peaceful way. 3-Until more research, yeah, who knows. 4-THANKS. Also, about the Nox-Assassin's relationship, they are said to be scions of the Eternal Cities, and look a moment, which city we found very connected to the Eternals? Sellia, who looks very similar to Ordina, where we find a lot of assassins. And Sellia is said to be a city where sorceres created Night spells to kill other sorceres. 5-For Morne, i think she wants us to take the sword that, technically, was created after the last battle of Godfrey, maybe a challenge to see if we are strong enough or a way to take Godfrey's inheritance. Miquella i think, I THINK, in one of her few moment of love, wanted to protect him from Godhood, and yeah possibly protect everyone from Age of Compassion. For Ranni also yes, but Ranni is not going to kill Greater Will, just moving the Elden Ring away. 6-As you say, we have no answer about the Fingers. As cretures who talk to GW, at least from what they say, they were probably similar to seers. Also, taking Dark Souls, in my opinion they resembled the role of the Primordial Serpents, creatures highly regarded and kept as advisors. 7-In truth, it's pretty in the mood of the game that we don't know the relationship between GW and Marika... if there was a relationship. GW is a being above everything else, away and care pretty little about the world. It's like "God" in Demon Souls, something we know very little and the story is not about that. 8-Nothing to say, but nice the idea Ranni was chosen for that. Even because she's the only girl, and Miko were only girls. (Classic Miyazaki thing, women magic/nature is different, only women can be Firekeepers, etc etc) 9-Jar Saint is a mistranslation, they have nothing to do about ascention. For relationship with Hornsents, maybe she was something like Midra, a not-hornsent with a great influence. 10-Possibly he would have had to fight Radagon and Elden Beast anyway. Next that? Possibly an Order all about strenght and fight, even just a "I have the Elden Ring. Come and fight me to conquer it."
One interesting thing I’ve thought regarding Marika, Radagon and Miquella/St Trina: I don’t think that gods themselves can wield power in the world of Elden Ring. Rather, gods must influence the world through their mortal avatars/followers. And I think this applies to ascended gods like Marika and Miquella as well. So when Marika became a god she separated herself into Marika/Radagon so that her Marika half could take up divinity while her technically mortal Radagon half wielded its power. A sort of sneaky exploit, so to speak. Which is why divine Marika ultimately sought to destroy the ring later: her two halves no longer saw eye to eye, but her divine half could not wield the own power and had no choice but to destroy it. Miquella saw this and decided that the fundamental problem was placing divine in the hands of someone with mortal foibles. So he instead simply rid himself of those foibles and sought to wield power as a god by simply mind-controlling the mortal who would channel his power.
Maybe Ranni is the one who is actually controlling the guidance of grace while allowing the Tarnished to take out her rivals etc. The Tarnished that succeeds would be strong enough to be a lord a possible requirement for her own ascension. I'd argue that the first merchant you encounter is a low level agent of Ranni stationed to monitor the exit from the chapel of anticipation into the lands between. That is how he knows Blaidd and how Ranni hears about someone riding Torrent so quickly.
The gods seem to always have extreme versions of illnesses and disorders it's possible Marika has DID (the multiple personality's theory) and when she became a god the power gave Radagon the ability to change the body to his self which drove him even more mad that he couldn't "fix" his red hair on command, I'll have to watch the rest but I think it would be cool if he was always there annoying her with his perfectionism
Something to note: In cut dialogue, there was a period at the beginning of the game where Godfrey actually addresses the Tarnished directly AS THEIR LORD, and he reveals that he KNOWS the Elden Ring will shatter at some point, and commands the Tarnished to be ready for when it happens. This dialogue doesn't contradict anything, but rather was likely unimportant or had no place to be put in the beginning of the game. But what's important is that it hints a little more at Godfrey and Marika's relationship. Before I listened to this dialogue, I was of the mind that Godfrey was just used by Marika as a weapon, but the cut dialogue implies that not only did she confide in him, but also TRUSTED him enough to reveal her intent to shatter the Elden Ring. I now believe that they actually did have a genuine relationship, and Godfrey believed, if not in the Golden Order, but in Marika and her leadership. They planned the Long March of the Tarnished together, which implies that they were more than just means to an end for each other.
I think one of the benefits of the story being written as it was, at least from the reader's perspective, was that we get to fill in the blanks with our own narrative. To me, that is a method of telling an excellent story.
The dynamic between Marika and Radagon bears a BIG similarity to the story of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. In the story Mr. Hyde is meant to be the manifestation of some part of Jekyll’s mind that he is in some way ashamed of. It is possible that Marika and Radagon’s relationship is the same way, Radagon is the manifestation of a part of Marika’s mind so powerful that it manifested and a new being existing within her body. I think your theory that Marika wanted to die is correct, but I think Radagon is the manifestation of the part of Marika that wanted to stay alive and stay in power, which is why she was so against letting Radagon gain control of her body.
Have you read Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? Hyde wasn't a separate personality, he was Jekyll with his vices brought to the surface. Jekyll loved being Hyde as an outlet right until his serum started making the change permanent. There is never a conversation or disagreement between the two because they're always the same person on the same page. It's more like if Steve Roger's had to keep taking the super soldier serum to become Captain America, and then did heinous stuff because he wasn't a good guy to begin with.
@@JoshuaAndres it's very much not a comparison that works though. Banner and Hulk would be more accurate, as one is a piece of the mind made manifest in the same body who speaks and conflicts with the original, even halting his suicide. Jekyll and Hyde would better parallel characters like Mesmer, Morgott, Godfrey, and Rykard, who pretend to be civil and proper but ultimately show their true colors when they can't bottle them up anymore.
I think where Elden Ring leaves gaps it wants us to fill them not from a lore perspective but a thematic one. Rather than asking was Radagon always part of Marika, we should ask what is being conveyed by M/R's dual nature? What is it saying about her? About her relationship to the golden order and the ethos/hierarchy it represents? Then the question of whether Radagon was always part of her becomes even more interesting.
I hoped to see the question of what happened to all the heads of the statues of Marika in the Land of Shadow. Why cut off the heads without toppling the statues? The statues are mostly in places controlled by Mesmer's army, and Mesmer is a momma's boy. They like Marika, even worship her still. Someone cut off the heads for a reason instead of toppling the statues. Question #11 - Where is the closet full of heads from all the Marika statues that depicted ger with horns?
Slight correction between Marika and Ranni: Ranni is the daughter of Marika/Radagon. Ranni's hair is on the reddish orange color pallet; demi Gods cannot be an Empyrean, and there are the Cuckoo knight of order and sages with sealed mouths, indicating that Rennela was raising a basterd.
I might be completely wrong since I'm no loremaster but I was under the impression the Hornsents were kinda transmuting flesh inside their jars to try and trenscend the very limits of mortality. They finally achieve their ultimate goal with Marika, making her a Rebis (a perfect divine being that is at the same time a "white queen" and a "red king" in western alchemical theories) by mixing her flesh with every powers and strong concepts of the world, including the ones inherited from the outer gods present in this world. When she's reached the gates of divinity to finally ascend as a god, she did it for her own sake and turned on the ones who've remade her against her will. That was her betrayal. I say they've probably mixed Marika with every kind of power existing in the world because I believe that's how these very powers were transmitted later on to her sons and daughters, as if they were leaking out of her, and I feel like that's how you try to make a god in the first place, by stuffing a person with power until they ascend or die in the process. I also think that strange power she and her offsprings have to separate parts of themselves is derived from the way Marika was recreated in a jar. So, yeah, to me the whole "she was in a jar" theory makes perfect sense but then again, I'm no loremaster, just a lowly tarnished who barely understands item descriptions at times. 😅
while it is cut dialogue and so its canonicity is dubious at best, godfrey does have cut voice lines where he talks directly to marika, says he’s returning to her, and calls her “dearest.” i think that lends more evidence for the love theory than the cold hearted seduction one, because we don’t have any real evidence implying the latter
About Godfrey,you forgot to mention that his talisman The talisman of Lords Bestowal is found in Messmers Shadow Keep.Its very likely that Godfrey was one of Marikas most trusted soldiers in the battle with the hornsent and probably the first to be gifted with the power of crucible (as the talisman says,one of the first to receive the precious sap=probably the sap of the scadutree) after she took the gate of divinity for herself. Cut dialogue also suggests Godfrey deeply cared about Marika and his tarnished,thats why in the final battle with him he treats us with respect and fights honorably,even considering you worthy of fighting him as his warrior self Hoarah Loux.
Marika wanting to help ranni makes sense if you believe she shattered the Elden ring in rebellion against the two fingers and greater will. Ranni would not only release marika of her duty to the GW but sever its connection to the lands between by taking its influence far away into the nights sky.
Kind of sad the game most likely won't get a sequel as I feel like there is still some things to expand upon like the lands beyond the lands between and what it would be like ruling it and having Marika by your side maybe you get invaded or you invade other places. I feel like they purposefully left it open ended for a possible sequel but unlikely sadly. Edit: Thinking about it a prequel would make more sense as well, playing as Godwyn fighting the giants and the Misbegotten and taking over stormveil castle would be nice to see.
8:30 The didn’t kill Iji, the went to protect him, the color of the flames lets you know he was killed by a Godskin. They went to protect Blaid too but he had lost control after Ranni left and killed them.
Maybe Queen Marika realized Godwyn was actually cursed and Ranni said she could destroy his body and let his soul live on, getting rid of the curse? Ranni could have had Marika help plan the night of black knives using the black knife assassins, help ranni "steal" a fragment of the rune of death, and then goy tricked by Ranni into killing Godwyn in body rather than soul. The Night of Black Knives could have been both a coverup for godwyns death and a culling by Queen Marika, which she references in her own dialouge "if you become nothing at all, yee shall become not but sacrifices"
consider the unusual texture unique to both radagon and marika. cracked and hollow, containing an elden ring, it does kind of point toward pottery. I recall this being mentioned in a video, if it was brett, oops, its all a blur, but in case it wasnt i thought i'd mention it
Honestly I think Marika and Radagon were thrown into a vessel together and they fused together. The idea comes from the Alchemical Rebis, the White Queen and the Red King. They became the perfect being in the eyes of the Hornsent. Perhaps they reached out to the Golden Order to make them whole and used them in their revenge, at least Marika did.
I think you left out one interesting mystery: why did Marika abandon Godfrey? Did she want to make room for Radagon? Did she blame Godfrey for Morgot and Mohg being born omen, cursed beings that reminded her of the hornsent who slaughtered her people?
Ranni was the most like Marika in reality, she had the will *and* the strength to defy the Two Fingers, to do what Marika was unable to do. Sure Marika caused the Shattering, but it took likely everything she had to accomplish it.
There are Finger Ruins near Shaman Village. I think the Fingers are operating under outdated orders to establish "Order" in the Lands Between and saw young Marika as a suitable figurehead. They gave her knowledge and power that allowed her to trick and manipulate the Hornsent into worshipping her. And I'm still partial to the idea that the Golden threads we see during the godhood ritual are part of the Erdtree seed gifted to her by the Fingers.
you brushed against this in the two fingers section, but if Marika wanted her order and therefore her life to continue eternally, why did she have children in the first place? It obviously wasn't because of her loving and nurturing nature. One twisted idea is that these children were always intended as a way of purging her own misdeeds, but why were Miquella and Malenia not shunned along with their older siblings? Maybe Marika had decided by that point to undo herself and the Golden Order, but we know Radagon would not have gone along with that if he knew her plan.
I believe the guidance of Grace leads the Tarnished to Castle Morne because it initates the Frenzied Flame ending through Irina/Hyetta's quest line. If Marika's goal is to die, then I believe that the Frenzied Flame ending is fine by her. If she is to die, so can the world as far as she cares.
Just realizing how heavily Roderika parallels Marika. I mean the grafting and the Shaman jars, the spirit tuning, the hair, the relationship with Hewg...
Radagon - Marika - Roderika
Theres something here lol
@@buckyhurdle4776Don't start bro 💀
nah let bro cook
Roderika is probably the representation of a younger Marika when she just a shaman growing into confidence of herself. Hell she carries the last four letters of Marika’s name!
A once meek girl losing all the people she loved to have to a flesh ritual. After being help from an outside force finds a power that she can use and learns to have self confidence. But this is where I feel Roderika and Marika paths diverge.
Nah
I love the idea that Marika herself was just a successful jar saint. It explains why she was able to rise to such a prominent position in the hornsent civilization despite her not being one of them, they probably viewed her as their ultimate achievement of creating their own divine beings (we know that the hornsent were an extremely proud and arrogant people). Only for her to pull an eclipse on them at the top of the gate of divinity and ascend to true godhood by way of slaughtering the people who put her in that position out of revenge.
This would also explain why the hornsent considered what Marika did a “betrayal” they genuinely thought they were doing Marika and the shamans a favor by subjecting them to this awful ritual. Really chilling stuff.
The ascension ritual also looks like a jar saint ritual at massive scale
@@johnbd9765 Maybe she even needed all the shaman bodies still available as glue for that massive mass of flesh 🙂
Imagine Griffith wanting to put an end to himself after going through similar events
A little point. Japanese translation calls the jar saint not in a holy way, but in a "nice person" way. So, nothing holy and no ascention, it was just a punishment with a nice excuse. Even because Shamans are just a key ingredient, the prisoners are the proper victim of the jars. (Of course they are all victims, but in this way Shamas weren't even seen as humans.)
Never happened. The jar ritual was a torture experiment and nothing else. It never went 'correctly'. It's just punishment.
St Trina's death is alot like a flower in nature with her being removed from the body of Miquella like a flower being plucked from it's roots, it's slowly wilting and withering away.
More like my surge protector. When it's not plugged in it won't charge my phone and it dies.
yeah like flower from berserk! berserk reference
My favorite two Radagon theories: 1) Radagon was melded into Marika during a jar saint ritual. 2) Much like Miquella and St. Trina, Radagon was always a part of Marika, but she then cast him away because she saw him as detrimental to her apotheosis. Later again they merged (voluntarily or not).
Or also to do a trick. To rule you need a God and a Elden Lord, and i think Marika didn't really want to share power with others, so why not put herself as both Elden Lord and God? Even because he's called King Consort, a role less important than QUEEN.
Ps. Jar saint is a mistransaltion. They are not saint as Holy or a try to ascention, is Saint as Good Person. Literally is a punishment to make people "better person." when in reality was just a torture for prisoners.
The "merging again" part is whats lacking. Theres is never any precedent of that happening in game. They never hinted at any "merging back after casting out your other half".
@@KodFrostwrath Umm... they HAD to merge, to be in the state we find them in during the game. The game 'does' say that Radagon left Rennala and returned to the Erdtree, to be with Marika. The notion that they had a 4-way marriage was debunked by the DLC by including St. Trina and Miquella separately.
He’s the animus its a metaphor for jungean psychology radagon is Matilda male alter ego who is the “doer”
My headcanon is that Radagon, be him an artificial Lord (like Silver Tears) or a random Zamor, houses the soul of the Fell God... that's the only way i see him wielding the Flame and "hating his own red locks".
I know it's probably not correct, but THERE HAS TO BE MORE ABOUT RADAGON OTHER THAT "ASPECT OF MARIKA".
As of the release of Elden Ring, Queen Marika is my favorite Fromsoft character. She's done inspirational and horrifying things both, caused wide scale devastation in shattering the Elden Ring, and yet she did so because she's oh so very human.
She was so human, in good and bad way. A lot bad. Mostly bad. Also, is cool how technically she's "dead" during all the game but she guide us more than Gwyn during Dark Souls.
If it matters, the Nox in the games files are called Marika Lineage, and the eternal cities are called Marika Ruins. In the one point oh version of the game, they were called the Empyrean Family as well, also Diallos drops a Numen rune, and many Numen runes are found along the Ainsel, I think theres another one hanging off the side of the Divine Tower of Caelid, I'm not sure if theres more but its clearly not JUST Marika and the Black Knives.
They're also a player race choice
Possibly Diallos is a descendant and Roderika too. Also, Numen is a world about Light, while Nox is about Night-Dark, so possibly Nox are a piece of Numen who hated GW and, as rebellion, they cover their golden eyes.
Maybe Queen Marika is the friends we made along the way
Next DLC, Torrent reveal to be Marika's souls all this time.
No but I'm actually convinced literally everyone we meet (not literally sorry but ranni melina melenia miquella etc) all are fractures or aspects of Marika and she like the "one great" was one entity that split into many
Nah Marika is the Marika we made along the way
bot
take my like and get out lol
I believe that the main reason that Marika sought death is because of how the fingers and metyr are broken. If they had already lost connection to the greater will by the time Marika was chosen, the last message must have been something like “select and empyrean and create a god” and the fingers have been repeating that ever since. But rather than divesting herself like Miquella, she bonded herself to the elden ring to acquire godhood, so when more empyreans are chosen, it flies in the face of what she was told by her two fingers, and fundamentally upsets the foundation of her godhood and her belief in her own divinity. She ultimately decided she was functionally imprisoned and sought death. Coincidentally, Ranni’s plans exposed the flaws of her order, so she shattered herself to create turmoil from witch Ranni could arise as the new god and allow marika’s death, but Radagon and Radahn ruined that. So she still wants Ranni to succeed her, despite Ranni killing godwyn, as it’s her best chance of actually dying
Sounds solid
for the St-Trina's parallel. When we kill MIquella's soul, St-Trina dies. They can exist separately but they are indeed one and the same and different character at the same time.
I think d is parallel to Marika
Miquella is one soul two mind, but d is two souls, one body
When miquella die st trina also die
But when D died, his brother took control the body
@@chingchief2721 oh your right totally forgot about D
Interesting to talk about translations from Japanese.
If George RR Martin wrote the foundation of Elden Ring initially, that means Elden Ring was written in English, translated into Japanese, FromSoftware writes what happened next, then the notes in game are translated back to English.
If you've ever done an exercise of translating from one language, then back to another, then back again, you'll know how crazy a concept can sound in the end lol
Even because a lot of rules of Elden Ring are related to Buddhism and Shintoism, so english rules created by japanese culture, translated in japanese and then again in english. Even just "Time is Convoluted" in Dark souls changed all the plot.
GRRM didn't write anything related to the actual game plot as it is, he simply wrote a bunch of mythos which then were twisted and tweaked by Miyazaki to his liking. So the original language is always Japanese.
@@padrenuestreMartin said it in itw, he litteraly wrote what is the elden ring, what are the runes, and all the shattering war era, if that's not directly related to the actual game plot i don't know what game you did play but it wasn't Elden Ring
@@MilesRavis so? What you're saying doesn't contradict my words. Whatever GRRM provided was altered to Fromsoft liking, he wasn't involved with the actual game plot, he only wrote the myths (which like you said most likely included the runes, Erdtree, Elden Ring and why not), the barebones for Miyzaki's inspiration.
There's a quote from Marika that Melina says that makes me thik Radagon and Marika werent always one entity "O Radagon, leal hound of the golden order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god"
What about the line that literally comes after it? "Let us be shattered, both, mine other self?"
I mean, the two of them being separated entities that later fused is still a valid theory. I just find it jarring that some people tend to leave that part of the quote out when using it as evidence to support that theory.
And let not forget about the item description that implies radagom is a descendant of the giants
I think the DLC pretty much answers this, without saying it directly. They very much seem to have been two separate people who even had 2 children before becoming one person. And it's also hinted at that they separated at some point again, and then joined as one once again when they married.
So, my interpretation of this dialogue is that Marika is still the dominant personality in control of their shared body. Marika is still the god, and she is talking to Radagon, who has yet to become the dominant personality and seize Marika's godhood. Radagon is a part of Marika(Mine other self) but isn't a god yet. I believe Radagon and Marika have come into conflict with each other(see the shattering of Eldne Ring cinematic) and are wrestling ea h other for control of the godly body they share.
When Marika was speaking to Radagon "the leal hound of the Golden Order" in this dialogue, she is still mostly in control of their shared body, but Radagon has plans to take complete control of their shared body and take Marika's place as the god. She tells him that she will shatter the Elden Ring and therefore shatter both herself and Radagon.
By the time we make it into the Erdtree, Radagon is fully in control or, at the very least, he is now the more dominant personality. Marika knew what Radagon was up to and that this hostile takeover of her godly flesh would eventually come to be, so she shattered the Elden Ring/Golden Order and set up an elaborate plan to bring the Tarnished back as a final gamble to kill the now in control god Radagon and free herself from the "cage" of godhood.
She even enslaved a blacksmith named Hewg and cursed him with the task of creating a weapon capable of killing a god(Radagon and herself) for her returned Tarnished warriors(including the ultimate Chad and her Warlord ex-consort Godfrey.
@@shellshocksound I forgot that was the last bit of it, but Darian and Devin seem to be in a similar situation where they share the same soul but they don't act as one entity per se, maybe Marika and Radagon share 1 soul but were born separate and merged later
Thank god… we had a lore drought for a minute there.
There’s not much here bud. Just more questions.
I wish there was just a brief flashback cutscene of Marika's last trip to the Shaman Village when you grab the Minor Erdtree incantation or the Golden Braid. I wouldn't even need dialogue or a view of her face. I get why they didn't do it, though.
We need a (good, non-propaganda-ridden) animated TV series about the events that take place before the game, honestly.
Imagine getting the entire Marika backstory, Shattering civil war, and the series ending after Malenia and Radahn end up failing to win the war, getting an epilogue of the state of the Lands Between, and a teaser of the Tarnished who would become Lord and ending it there.
@cincameron I see where you're coming from, although I'm not sure why you felt the need to include that bit in the parentheses. I want more answers and a part of me wants the exact anime prequel you suggested, too. I would just hate to get answers I don't like. At least our minds are free to speculate.
@@vincentlorusso689 A lot of TV shows lately decide to focus on marketing that's related to current controversial topics instead of just focusing on the fantasy world. That's what I mean. I don't think anyone wants an Elden Ring show to end up being like Rings of Power or Acolyte.
Always here for another Fatbrett video
Queen Marika won Elden Ring. She got out. We're living in the aftermath of that victory, where Radagon is trying to keep the game going long, while the Silver Mimic that was constructed in Marika's place refuses to play along with the deception any further.
Won my ass she is currently trapped inside the Erdtree hoping that the Tarnished can even breach the damn thing, even if only to fall to the Elden Beast.
@@Skintopster What's left of her is locked inside the Erd Tree. We never meet Marika. We only ever see the parts of her that she leaves behind. She is unattainable.
My belief is that Marika was the only successful Jar Saint due to the ingredients she was bonded with, that being something to do with each of the outer cosmic forces. Embodying every force made her already divine, and then these traits are later inherited by her children. Melenia=God of Rot, Godwyn= Greater Will, Messmer=Abyssal Serpent, Melina= Death Bird, Ranni= Dark Moon, and so on. The ritual she performed at the top of the tower was not just her claiming godhood, it was her creating a new Great Rune to serve as the foundation of the Elden Ring so it could never be separated from her. The seduction was her beseeching the Greater Will for power to create a new order and a new world suited to her vision. She believed that her new world would be beautiful and wanted it to be eternal so she would never lose anyone she loved ever again. And so she plucked the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring during the ritual at the tower after the slaughter of the Hornsent. This was the betrayal that caused the Greater Will to forsake the Lands Between. When Ranni stole a fragment of the Rune of Death and killed Godwyn with it, Marika snapped and broke herself and the world because none of her past efforts mattered. I believe at the moment we unseal the rune of death again that is the time that Marika physically dies, but not the Radagon half. I believe her spirit is the Guidance of Grace and she is guiding only those capable enough to make a new order. At the end we can still use her shattered body despite her death as the vessel of the Elden Ring, or we can choose another path such as Ranni dissolving Marika entirely.
But if this is the case the godskin godhunt would have been before this as the gloam eyed queen was in control of the rune of death and was chosen by the fingers (it never explicitly says 2 or 3 fingers chose her) as an empyrean. Just an interesting thought that the story gets a bit more challenging with timelines since SOTE
@@Kameraspie The Gloam-Eyed Queen was chosen by Metyr. We can see Metyr's fingerprint in the blackflame sigil when casting blackflame incantations.
infused shamans look grotesque, marika looks perfectly fine..idk how you people think she is multiple persons infused together
I always thought that Marika unintentionally got Godwyn killed by letting Ranni get a piece of the rune of death. This would make her responsible! I just dont see why she would let Godwyn die if she knew it was going to be him.
Even because, if she wanted Godwyn dead she literally has a giant dog with a Death sword as her pet. And Maliketh killed other Demigods before.
9:34 while this is true explicitly, it seems to be implied that Diallos Hoslow is Numen because of his item drop at the end of his questline. Marika's story in the DLC is also a tale told with a lot of blood
"The tale of House Hoslow is told in blood."
17:47 Also, if she wanted us to defeat Ranni instead of helping her, you’d assume we would no longer be able to see the grace at a certain point in Ranni’s quest.
I think that's more of a mechanical aid for the player to not get lost, so in lore the player's wants and desires are guided by the grace which at that point are to help ranni, so the guidance of grace points to what will help us achieve our goals
@@guythasawesomebut the grace doesnt help with every quest. It couldve pointed to another quest instead
@@AstralJustus but it does point to quests essential to getting endings
The point about Ranni potentially being an Empyrean because of her mastery over spiritual skills is a genuinely fantastic insight, and she is the one who gives you the spirit calling bell too, it fits so well as speculation! It really would explain why she is the only Empyrean besides the twin prodigies who have the game clearly explain why they have that special status, and it also shows the importance of being able to transcend through spiritual power essentially being a necessity to attain apotheosis (as Miquella also shows), tying into Marika's unique status as a Shaman/Miko, something that was also likely a characteristic the Numen possessed more than anyone else, when you consider the etymology behind the name and the information we get about them in the lore. I do wish Shadow of the Erdtree had a description or two outright using the term "Numen," it could have helped tie a lot of theorization together narratively. Oh well. Another great video as usual!
I'm sure Tarnished Archaeologist will eventually do a whole video about this, but the overt Babylonian imagery of the Hornsent and Ancient Dynasty civilizations makes me certain that the devs want us to identify young Marika with Inanna/Ishtar: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna
Ishtar, tellingly, is both a goddess of love AND war. Given her association with abundance and the language used around her, I feel confident that Marika rose to power as the leader of some kind of fertility cult in Hornsent society (with all the sexual impropriety that implies). Eventually, she gathered enough influence to carry out a scheme that would lead to her ascension as a god and the birth of the Erdtree. After that, well...we know how the war goddess bit came into play.
Elden Ring to a large degree is a fantasy version of real-world Western history and mythology. Ishtar has long been an obsession for anthropologists for the way she persisted throughout different civilizations, with many arguing that she eventually became or merged with the Greek Aphrodite. Marika herself remains a consistent object of worship in Elden Ring even as the world changes around her.
My best guess is that the Black Knife Assassins are just sell swords whose loyalty is to whoever's paying them at the moment.
31:08 cut dialogue of Godfrey confirms this, he did love Marika
Cut content is not to be considered canon unless backed by other uncut sources. It is cut for a reason.
@@5chneemensch138it's the best we have.
Great video as always. I don't know if its a good idea, but I'd love to watch a deconstruction of villany about the Illusive Man from Mass Effect.
8:19 There is more evidence supporting that the Black Knives serve Miquella because they are guarding the haligtree alongside the alburnics. Now, Ranni betrayed them and Miquella. Godwyn was supposed to have a proper death as a martyr according to the finger maiden in his zone. If not Radahn, then it was Godwyn he wanted to die a true death, for the eclipse. But Ranni didn’t tell them she only gave half of the rune, that the victims of the black knives were ALL killed with half of that death rune. Remember, the tarnished completes the rune of death meaning no one else did
16:57 And Rennala would have been essential for this. Evolving and adapting, if we defeat every boss…only three carians are left standing (well…rykard’s head is technically laying down). Making Rennala the rightful ruler of the lands between in the stars ending
I agree with you that Marika wanted to die. There was probably a desire to sever the connection of the greater will, and maybe she thought shattering the Elden Ring would accomplish both.
That's also why she had Godwyn merked, she knew he was likely going to be the next to ascend and she wanted to spare him her fate. It was a mercy. At least, she thought it was.
Problem is nothing in game say that Godwyn was an Empyrean. And, if that was mercy, why dont just kill him instead of an eternity of not-life not-death? That sounds a little worse than Godhood.
@@themaniae4803 Godwyn himself is not undead, his soul was destroyed by Ranni, everything that made him Godwyn was killed by destined death. The body that is still alive and deformed/mutated beyond belief is not Godwyn, just his body.
13:10 I have wondered why Godfrey attacks us here. Going by the (I think) generally accepted theory that the Tarnished were originally an army that followed Godfrey into the unknown, you would think our character would immediately recognize him as their former Lord and Commander and acknowledge him as such.
He is but every tarnished has been risen by Marika and they all are rivaling for the throne and bringing new age.
Godfrey is also pissed about Morgott dying when we meet him so him acknowledging Tarnished doesn't matter to him that much.
That's also the whole reason why tarnished like Gideon try to out you if you find something interesting or conflict with plan of bringing age they want.
Think this. Tarnished are the ex army of Godfrey, yes, but ORIGINAL TARNISHED. We are descendant of them. Centuries or Millenials are passed and, as the game say, once all Tarnished were warriors, then other classes started to appear. (Clerics, Deathbed companions, Sorcerers. Gideon looks everything than a Warrior.)
Even because we find an Ancient Tarnished, one who really was in Godfrey's army, Istvan (The one who help us in Demihumans cave and then we kill during Volcano Manor Quest)
The crazy thing about Marika is that what do we know about her actions that was her actual decision and not by the influence of Metyr or the Elden Beast? There is so much speculation about her and not one of us truly knows what she was like when she was still functioning.
It's very difficult. Metyr was hidden away who knows how long, while the Elden Beast as far as we know only awakened when we entered the arena and began to manipulate Radagon. Following the logic of the runes that we see with Fia, Dungeater and Goldmask, a rune is born from the death of someone, so it wouldn't be strange to think that Elden Ring was born from the death of the Elden Beast and remained dormant until Marika hurt it.
Also, it would be very anticlimactic to find out that Marika was manipulated/possessed by others. The beauty of her character is that, for better or worse, she was very human.
The black knife assassines are like the furies in greek mythology , since their captain is named Allecto they punish criminals and enact revenge , they dont have any particular loyalty
I always thought Radagon and Marika were one being for two specific reasons:
1. Ranni was an empyrean and had to shed her body because she hated being tied to the two fingers. Makes more sense that she was born into divinity, hence why her body was 'tainted' by the two fingers from the beginning.
2. The big turtle says that it was weird how Radagon was called back to the capital to become the 2nd elden lord when he was just a champion. Either Marika wanted his knowledge of the stars and picked him, or she wanted that knowledge and specifically sent him to learn more about the stars (and then come back and include intelligence into the golden order fundamentalism).
For the n.2: She probably called him back because she needs a Elden Lord because Magic says you rule only with an Elden Lord... and that was a great move, because she is also God and Elden Lord and she can rule without other will than hers. (Not a case Godfrey is called King in japanese, while Radagon King Consort, someone NOT at the same level of the Queen.)
A Kage Bunshin basically, left to wander enough time so as to grow into a new personality.
You never miss Professor Brett. I am so glad I found your channel because you expand on so much lore not just for Elden Ring, but GOW and The Last of Us, etc. You are the GOAT fr
19:29 And taking in consideration that you meet the mother of fingers in the DLC who is suppose to rely the messages from the greater will to the fingers and you learnt that to begin with she or it has lost its connection to the greater will meaning that the mother was who was giving orders to the fingers and not the greater will it makes everything even more confusing.
16:15 there’s a very unique relationship status represented by that “/“. Not that of a step mother being so close to their step daughter that you can equate it to a biological relationship, but literally being both a biological and step child lol
On the topic of the hornsent. What if they did stuff her in a jar, and whatever ritual they were doing actually worked and what emerged was a Marika with a connection to the Greater will and a split personality, Radagon.
One of the topics this game teased and didn't really go too far with was the practice of Grafting, you see it at the start and then a few enemies but the only other time you'd actually encounter a sort of grafting was the ritual the hornsent were doing by putting people inside of jars. What if Marika had been grafted Radagon only to later split with him during the Carian uprising?
Jar saint is a mistranlastion. They are not Saint in a Holy and Trascendental way, but Saint as Good person. Jars were just a torture for prisoners with the """holy excuses""" to turn them into better people. After all is a culture of Inquisitors, i bet they did a lot of bad things to their own people.
In the Black knives armor set: "Traces of power yet remain in its CONCEALED VEIL, which MUFFLES the SOUND of footsteps."
Assassin's Gambit: "Grants near INVISIBILITY and SILENCES footsteps."
Assassin's Approach: very similar but the description includes "Incantation of the TWO FINGERS' SERVANTS, who ONCE SERVED as assassins for the ROUNDTABLE HOLD. The assassins were charged with ELIMINATING TARNISHED who had STRAYED FROM GRACE."
I dont know what this means yet or if theres more connections... but I bet theres something there besides Ranni and Rykard's involvment (You buy the Assassins Gambit in Gelmer from Bernahl... the RECUSANT, who was considered a CHAMPION (like Godfrey?) capable of becoming a LORD until his maiden threw herself into "the" fire.
so... we have a former Lord-to-be turned enemy/blasphemer who supplies the enemies of the Two Fingers WITH incantations stolen FROM the Two Fingers who may have supplied the Dark Knife Assassins under the guidance of... who? The most likely answer is either Ranni or Rykard but again...
If Marika is involved in the given order, she may have just GIVEN the damn things to Bernahl so the Night of Black Knives could happen, setting it all in motion. maybe?
I just realized, Ranni and Marika are the only two Empyrians that we see have shadows, so did Malenia and Miquella get shadows that were eventually discarded or died, or did the the two fingers favor Ranni in a way?
Interesting observation. I'll also add that Miquella is the only one of the empyrians that has an other self, Trina. And Malenia's great rune description states that "...her Great Rune should have been the most sacred of all."
So maybe, in a way, all 3 empyrian children were imperfect, part of the whole that Marika was, that is - possesing the greatest rune of the elden ring, having an other self, and a shadow granted by the fingers.
Perhaps their lack of Shadows could be considered a sign of lack of favour from the Greater Will; Malenia is born a vessel of Rot (an outer god opposed to the Greater Will) and Miquella is perpetually "immature" (an incomplete vessel)
Otherwise, the presence of a Shadow could be an exclusive sign of favour (a distinction akin to being declared *the* Crown Princess, rather than *just* a Prince)
@@arghscuffelbut3226 did the two fingers even chose Miq and Malenia like they did Ranni and Marika or were they granted an Empyrean status "automatically" because they were born from a single god?
at 16:20, my opinion is that we are led to all 3 empyreans to allow us the choice of how we can aid them, despite only 1 option being available
I loved the commentary about the black knifes.
About ranni, I often leave her dead, rather than put a ring on her, right after she slays her own 2 fingers.
I believe Marika seduced the hornsent with the promise of Power; she was a Miko, one of the people who were connected to the spiritual, and the hornsent were OBSESSED with their pursuit of Godhood. Perhaps she showed them the way to the ritual, to the construction of the gate of divinity, guided by the secrets of the finger ruins, or perhaps with simply the spiritual knowledge of her people.
I believe she told them what they wanted to hear; that she could bring them divinity. But when she led the ritual, she only brought it to herself, crafting her Great Rune.
Just from what I believe:
1) I think Marika shattered the Elden Ring because of a multitude of reasons. But there's three big things that could have triggered this. First, the death of Godwyn (assuming she was betrayed by her fellow Numen) would have devastated her. She wanted an Age with no death, perhaps desiring some form of "heaven" for her chosen society--after subjugating everything that didn't represent her ideal order, of course... And she lost her son and discovered the Rune of Death was being used. Second, she at some point delved into trying to better understand the Order they served... She likely discovered the Two Fingers (and maybe the Elden Beast) were lying about receiving Guidance from the Greater Will, thus she was acting on their whims. I could see this infuriating her. Lastly, I believe Radagon attempted to usurp Marika by taking over her body... For context, I do not believe Radagon was originally part of Marika, nor do I believe Marika was a Jar Saint (I'll get into that in a later topic), but Radagon aspired to become complete, and we know he worshipped the Golden Order obsessively, maybe even greedily. Taking Marika's body would make him "perfect" in his perspective, I think...
As a result, Marika plotted to have Hewg craft a weapon to slay Radagon and the Elden Beast in the event she fails and would require one of her demigod children to slay Radagon... Or if even that fails, call upon the Tarnished, which lines up for me.
2) Radagon's existence is still the biggest mystery in the story. People believe he was cut off from Marika, or just an alternate personality, but I do believe this all relies too much on imagination. I instead believe he was born from the Warrior Jars that were being used after Marika's ascension. It would explain a great number of anomalies revolving around him, especially his and Marika's children. He has red locks which are associated with Fire Giants, and he inherited their smithing abilities in some way, but he seems humanoid... Also, it is likely during the final boss, HIS body was the vessel for Marika and the Elden Ring, explaining his stone-like body being similar to the Jars and Silver Tears (Perhaps a connection to the Ancient Dragons since the Nox seemed interested in their traits). All of the Warrior Jars aspire to become a great champion. Radagon became the Champion of the Golden Order before assaulting Liurnia. I believe he was born somewhere between the long period after the Fire Giants were slaughtered and obviously before the Liurnian Wars.
As for his children with Marika, aspects of himself are taken from other beings, and likely his genetics would have a strange effect with Marika's. It would also explain why the children are all touched by some Outer God's curse. Messmer via something adjacent to Giant's Flame and a Serpent, Melina by Destined Death (which is sealed, so it's not apparent until the Rune of Death is unbound and she is still alive), Miquella by whatever gave him Nascence (resulting in St. Trina), and Malenia via the Rot God.
3) This is impossible to say for certain because we don't know what happened at what time with 100% certainty, but I believe Marika was brought to the top of Enir Ilem with the Hornsent intending to turn her into a Jar Saint, but Marika ended up using Maliketh (and perhaps Hoarah Loux) to slaughter everyone (both would have been in her service by now since she's ascending to Godhood minutes later). Marika used the Tower Folk to create the Divine Gateway and stripped grace/rune arcs from the corpses and then communed with the Elden Beast to become the bearer of the Elden Ring.
The rest of the Hornsent would not know what happened during this event since all witnesses are dead or loyal to Marika at this point, so it would make sense for them to just assume she became their saint, when it was all just a lie. Why else would the Hornsent assist Marika's reign for so long until after Godfrey and the Tarnished were banished? It makes sense to me, idk.
4) I don't think Marika planned the Night of the Black Knives. I believe this was solely a Ranni and Melina incident. BUT the time-frame of the plot is unclear because Rogier suggests the Rune of Death was swiped a long time before Godwyn's murder, but an item suggests it may have happened over one night. Assuming the former, Melina attempting to burn the Erdtree allows one to travel to Farum Azula, so either Ranni took advantage of Melina's attempt to burn the tree to take a fragment of the rune of death. Since Destined Death wasn't fully released, the tree remained mostly unharmed, but this would've prompted Marika to imprison Melina (what's left of her, anyways). As for the Numen women who assassinated Godwyn, they probably realized Marika had gone mad from her quest of revenge and thus attempted to undermine her by slaying her first-born. But Ranni fumbled this idea by performing the black knife ritual on herself simultaneously to kill her body while only Godwyn's soul was killed.
And as a side-note, I believe this event might have been the reason why the Nox were sent underground. They earned the ire of the Greater Will, and the Fingerslaying blade is said to have been born from a corpse and was a result of "high treason". Thus, Marika sent the Numen underground as punishment for killing her son.
I'm skipping a lot of the topics because I think I somewhat answered them from my point of view (which is probably completely wrong, but hey).
5) Godfrey's origin is a mystery, but with the dlc, we can probably assume he was a Highland warrior who was searching for a powerful beast to defeat in combat. He likely hunted the Great (Red) Bears. His fighting style as Hoarah Loux does resemble the bear-claw swipes, uplifting the ground, and the bear roar. Him defeating a powerful Great Bear may have earned him respect from Serosh and the Hornsent, elevating him to a high status in their society, and thus an ideal spouse for Marika's ascension.
I didn't mean to make a wall of text, but even so I feel like I condensed everything a lot, so most of my claims may just seem outright insane, but hey... I'm not taking hours to explain my flimsy opinion LOL
i think radigon is like a created machine gohlum that marika can use as a physical body but when she used him the "greater will" gave him life and his own will, but merika could still control him but so could himself which left him with the internal conflict of life and death which is why all their kids are both alive and dead
31:35 it’s amazing that there’s enough evidence to go both ways, it feels like we’re looking through the history of this foreign world through a bystander which is so cool
The 1.00 description of the nox monk hood said that the Nox are descendants of Queen Marika but, even without that description Gowry says that Sellians are descendants of the Eternal (presumably of Queen Marika the Eternal). So, Sellians have night sorceries which are associated with the Eternal City and Rogier says that the Black Knives were their scions. Putting that information with the description of the BKA armor then perhaps the ties they have with Marika are blood related.
And Sellia looks very similar to Ordina, where we find a lot of assassins.
I’ve always theorized that Marika was playing 4D chess throughout our playthrough. Now that we’ve played the dlc and got more info this theory can be further supported.
After realizing the error of her ways in attaining godhood as well as the greater will, Marika realized the fallacy of her order and decided to scrape it all.
We know Marika has a by any means necessary type of action so she was willing to gamble it all in this long term plan of stopping her while also getting rid of the greater will/outer god all together.
We dub it as Marika crashing out but I think she saw this as the only way of getting rid of the outer god, especially since the erdtree was basically a parasite.
Which also relates to her involvement in the night of black knives. Ranni was also apart of the plan as well but that’s for another day. I think this theory is pretty strong and can be backed up since the varying perspectives correlate. We know Marika constructed an elaborate scheme as for what it’s not clear but she started something and wanted to make sure it was finished by any means necessary 🤷🏿
one thing to note about Miquella and Marika mirroring each other that i don't think you have considered is that while yes, Miquella and Trina have always existed alongside one another, that doesn't necessitate the same for Marika and Radagon. Marika has produced multiple offspring with a dual nature, Miquella, Malenia, Messmer, and arguably Melina and/or Ranni. Save for Ranni, the other four are either confirmed or heavily implied to be children specifically born of the single-god union of Radagon/Marika, so they likely "inherited" dual natures as a sort of recessive gene where her other children did not due to a "dominant" nature of being born normally giving them normal natures. While her children born with dual natures likely inherited this trait it doesn't necessitate that she went through the same process so theories like the jar theory or her being changed at the gate of divinity still hold water unless we can find evidence of Radagon being active or expressed before Marika's ascension. In fact, given his notable absence as a character in the DLC, I can't help but feel that he was formed after or contemporary with her ascension.
9:10 I’ve always held the headcanon that the Black Knives were betrayed. By Ranni or Marika or even both, then they simply all splintered and chose their own allegiances. Some of them stuck with Marika, while other chose to attempt revenge, some even simply wander with no true purpose.
There is another connection between the Hornsent and Marika, specifically through the Specimen Storage Room. While we can superficially link the tablets stored there to those in Marika’s bedchamber, the connection runs much deeper than most people realize.
The Black Keep consists of two parts: the newly built Messmer Keep and the older storage room. The symbol we see atop the storage room is also part of Messmer’s emblem, which combines both his fire insignia and the symbol of the storage room. In addition to the specimens and tablets, we frequently encounter Hornsent ghosts who, even in death, continue to manage the collection within the storage room.
We can infer their purpose from other sources that describe Hornsent archaeological studies in ancient Rauth. The Horned Warriors we encounter in Rauth and the Dancing Lion are part of an expeditionary force tasked with retrieving artifacts from Rauth to be studied by the Hornsent scholars-scholars who were ultimately murdered during the crusade. The presence of both stone tablets and scrolls made from birch bark suggests that they were actively translating these artifacts. One of the translated texts, which reveals the prophecy of Miquella, suggests that the tablets and scrolls hold similar prophetic significance. This explains why Marika has them in her bedchamber; she was studying ancient Rauth lore to gain insight into the future.
It seems likely that Messmer and the Hornsent had a scientific cooperation agreement, aiming to learn more about the Crucible, prophecy, and Rauth in general. However, after Marika ordered Messmer to eliminate them, the Fire Knights simply executed all the researchers.
Radagon is a manifestation of the greater will when she took in the elden ring
I really like your video about queen marika , the best part is the comments triggered by you, just to know how the fans see a character in different POVs but the evidances is still the same is a sign shows to me that the story tellling in this game are far more superior and geniuse then any average works out there either it is a game movie or story ..love to see it keep up the good work.
I Just noticed that the Gate of Divinity kinda looks Like Marika's Rune, the Rune Arc with the flowing Center
There was an assassin at the door to Marika's bedchambers, to complicate things
I have throughly enjoyed your Eldin Ring videos and hope you make more in the future. I am looking forward to your future content
I think the point is to put us in their place and, from imperfect original conditions, make us decide what we should do. Marika is like The Joker, telling us we too would bring about an imperfect Era, for reasons beyond our control.
My favorite pet theory is that there is no "greater will". It's something people attribute events to, but there's no actual entity behind it. The Elden Ring, the god of Rot, Metyr, the onyx and alabaster lords, Astel, the fallingstar beasts, the formless mother, the flame of frenzy, the crucible, etc., these are all basically space aliens. They're powerful beings whose abilities, motivations and logic we may never truly understand.
Really enjoyed your Elden Ring content and will be sticking around for whatever else it is you do. Cheers!
One theory I favor is that Ranni specifically targeted Godwin for assassination because Ranni was selected by Marika to be her heir, and Godwin was selected to be her Elden Lord. Ranni, of course, rejects being a puppet god of the current order and thus takes measures to ensure the proposed inheritance doesn't occur. Ranni does want to rule, but only by her own system and not the broken system she grew up in.
I firmly think that Radagon and Marika used the Rune of the Unborn to create a body for Radagon. When he gave that to Rennala he merged back into Marika. Rennala was truly in love with him and knows that egg was essentially his body and she carries it always as the last remnant of him that's separate from her love.
I really love Frat butt's analysis video it always expands our minds in thinking a different perspective that is off yet still makes sense
It's complex
Great observation about the grace site that appears after Ranni leaves. I never thought about how the grace lines were used before and it got me thinking. I don’t Marika wants us to help Ranni. The way I see it, Marika uses those lines to point us in the direction of something she wants us to kill, or to lead us to a great rune. Hard to know which one since we always kill whatever is there and take the rune. Lol. But except in Ranni’s case. Which makes me think Marika wants us to kill Ranni, or she never discarded her great rune to begin with and in fact still has it in her possession.
Excited for the ranni video! I wish st Trina had more for her to be looked at
28:50 "our seed will look back upon us, and recall... the age of the Gigachad!"
1-Godwyn's death=Deathblight and Those who live in death everywhere and the break of the "perfect cicle" of eternal life created by Marika, all her direct children cursed or dead, 2 of her half's children starting to rebelling against the sistem and Miquella/Malenia doing their things, 3 empyrean=Fingers maybe wants to push her aside, Radagon taking more and more power.... as Ranni says, she was pushed at her limit.
2-Yeah, and just want to add a point. Saint Trina possibly looks so... less complete because she was torn apart by Miquella, while Radagon was separated in a peaceful way.
3-Until more research, yeah, who knows.
4-THANKS. Also, about the Nox-Assassin's relationship, they are said to be scions of the Eternal Cities, and look a moment, which city we found very connected to the Eternals? Sellia, who looks very similar to Ordina, where we find a lot of assassins. And Sellia is said to be a city where sorceres created Night spells to kill other sorceres.
5-For Morne, i think she wants us to take the sword that, technically, was created after the last battle of Godfrey, maybe a challenge to see if we are strong enough or a way to take Godfrey's inheritance. Miquella i think, I THINK, in one of her few moment of love, wanted to protect him from Godhood, and yeah possibly protect everyone from Age of Compassion. For Ranni also yes, but Ranni is not going to kill Greater Will, just moving the Elden Ring away.
6-As you say, we have no answer about the Fingers. As cretures who talk to GW, at least from what they say, they were probably similar to seers. Also, taking Dark Souls, in my opinion they resembled the role of the Primordial Serpents, creatures highly regarded and kept as advisors.
7-In truth, it's pretty in the mood of the game that we don't know the relationship between GW and Marika... if there was a relationship. GW is a being above everything else, away and care pretty little about the world. It's like "God" in Demon Souls, something we know very little and the story is not about that.
8-Nothing to say, but nice the idea Ranni was chosen for that. Even because she's the only girl, and Miko were only girls. (Classic Miyazaki thing, women magic/nature is different, only women can be Firekeepers, etc etc)
9-Jar Saint is a mistranslation, they have nothing to do about ascention. For relationship with Hornsents, maybe she was something like Midra, a not-hornsent with a great influence.
10-Possibly he would have had to fight Radagon and Elden Beast anyway. Next that? Possibly an Order all about strenght and fight, even just a "I have the Elden Ring. Come and fight me to conquer it."
One interesting thing I’ve thought regarding Marika, Radagon and Miquella/St Trina: I don’t think that gods themselves can wield power in the world of Elden Ring. Rather, gods must influence the world through their mortal avatars/followers. And I think this applies to ascended gods like Marika and Miquella as well. So when Marika became a god she separated herself into Marika/Radagon so that her Marika half could take up divinity while her technically mortal Radagon half wielded its power. A sort of sneaky exploit, so to speak. Which is why divine Marika ultimately sought to destroy the ring later: her two halves no longer saw eye to eye, but her divine half could not wield the own power and had no choice but to destroy it.
Miquella saw this and decided that the fundamental problem was placing divine in the hands of someone with mortal foibles. So he instead simply rid himself of those foibles and sought to wield power as a god by simply mind-controlling the mortal who would channel his power.
9:29 well there's Our Tarnished too if we pick that in the character creation menu
Amazing video as always!!
Maybe Ranni is the one who is actually controlling the guidance of grace while allowing the Tarnished to take out her rivals etc. The Tarnished that succeeds would be strong enough to be a lord a possible requirement for her own ascension. I'd argue that the first merchant you encounter is a low level agent of Ranni stationed to monitor the exit from the chapel of anticipation into the lands between. That is how he knows Blaidd and how Ranni hears about someone riding Torrent so quickly.
The gods seem to always have extreme versions of illnesses and disorders it's possible Marika has DID (the multiple personality's theory) and when she became a god the power gave Radagon the ability to change the body to his self which drove him even more mad that he couldn't "fix" his red hair on command, I'll have to watch the rest but I think it would be cool if he was always there annoying her with his perfectionism
Something to note: In cut dialogue, there was a period at the beginning of the game where Godfrey actually addresses the Tarnished directly AS THEIR LORD, and he reveals that he KNOWS the Elden Ring will shatter at some point, and commands the Tarnished to be ready for when it happens. This dialogue doesn't contradict anything, but rather was likely unimportant or had no place to be put in the beginning of the game. But what's important is that it hints a little more at Godfrey and Marika's relationship. Before I listened to this dialogue, I was of the mind that Godfrey was just used by Marika as a weapon, but the cut dialogue implies that not only did she confide in him, but also TRUSTED him enough to reveal her intent to shatter the Elden Ring. I now believe that they actually did have a genuine relationship, and Godfrey believed, if not in the Golden Order, but in Marika and her leadership. They planned the Long March of the Tarnished together, which implies that they were more than just means to an end for each other.
I think one of the benefits of the story being written as it was, at least from the reader's perspective, was that we get to fill in the blanks with our own narrative. To me, that is a method of telling an excellent story.
The dynamic between Marika and Radagon bears a BIG similarity to the story of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. In the story Mr. Hyde is meant to be the manifestation of some part of Jekyll’s mind that he is in some way ashamed of. It is possible that Marika and Radagon’s relationship is the same way, Radagon is the manifestation of a part of Marika’s mind so powerful that it manifested and a new being existing within her body. I think your theory that Marika wanted to die is correct, but I think Radagon is the manifestation of the part of Marika that wanted to stay alive and stay in power, which is why she was so against letting Radagon gain control of her body.
Have you read Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? Hyde wasn't a separate personality, he was Jekyll with his vices brought to the surface. Jekyll loved being Hyde as an outlet right until his serum started making the change permanent. There is never a conversation or disagreement between the two because they're always the same person on the same page. It's more like if Steve Roger's had to keep taking the super soldier serum to become Captain America, and then did heinous stuff because he wasn't a good guy to begin with.
@@Hypersaiyanike I never said Hyde was a separate personality I’m just trying to contribute to the conversation dude
@@JoshuaAndres it's very much not a comparison that works though. Banner and Hulk would be more accurate, as one is a piece of the mind made manifest in the same body who speaks and conflicts with the original, even halting his suicide. Jekyll and Hyde would better parallel characters like Mesmer, Morgott, Godfrey, and Rykard, who pretend to be civil and proper but ultimately show their true colors when they can't bottle them up anymore.
I think where Elden Ring leaves gaps it wants us to fill them not from a lore perspective but a thematic one.
Rather than asking was Radagon always part of Marika, we should ask what is being conveyed by M/R's dual nature? What is it saying about her? About her relationship to the golden order and the ethos/hierarchy it represents?
Then the question of whether Radagon was always part of her becomes even more interesting.
I hoped to see the question of what happened to all the heads of the statues of Marika in the Land of Shadow. Why cut off the heads without toppling the statues? The statues are mostly in places controlled by Mesmer's army, and Mesmer is a momma's boy. They like Marika, even worship her still. Someone cut off the heads for a reason instead of toppling the statues. Question #11 - Where is the closet full of heads from all the Marika statues that depicted ger with horns?
Slight correction between Marika and Ranni: Ranni is the daughter of Marika/Radagon.
Ranni's hair is on the reddish orange color pallet; demi Gods cannot be an Empyrean, and there are the Cuckoo knight of order and sages with sealed mouths, indicating that Rennela was raising a basterd.
I might be completely wrong since I'm no loremaster but I was under the impression the Hornsents were kinda transmuting flesh inside their jars to try and trenscend the very limits of mortality. They finally achieve their ultimate goal with Marika, making her a Rebis (a perfect divine being that is at the same time a "white queen" and a "red king" in western alchemical theories) by mixing her flesh with every powers and strong concepts of the world, including the ones inherited from the outer gods present in this world.
When she's reached the gates of divinity to finally ascend as a god, she did it for her own sake and turned on the ones who've remade her against her will. That was her betrayal.
I say they've probably mixed Marika with every kind of power existing in the world because I believe that's how these very powers were transmitted later on to her sons and daughters, as if they were leaking out of her, and I feel like that's how you try to make a god in the first place, by stuffing a person with power until they ascend or die in the process. I also think that strange power she and her offsprings have to separate parts of themselves is derived from the way Marika was recreated in a jar. So, yeah, to me the whole "she was in a jar" theory makes perfect sense but then again, I'm no loremaster, just a lowly tarnished who barely understands item descriptions at times. 😅
I think there's going to be a second dlc to wrap the story of Marika and probably themed around God godrick and his proximity to death
Miyazaki clearly stated there won’t be a second dlc
Queen Marika the Eternal is my favorite wanton strumpet
Really makes ya dance and cavort
09:47 most likely Marika's possible involvement with the shaman's sudden spirited away disappearance if her golden braid mentions a 'confession'
while it is cut dialogue and so its canonicity is dubious at best, godfrey does have cut voice lines where he talks directly to marika, says he’s returning to her, and calls her “dearest.” i think that lends more evidence for the love theory than the cold hearted seduction one, because we don’t have any real evidence implying the latter
"Why do you search for answers when there are only more questions?"
About Godfrey,you forgot to mention that his talisman The talisman of Lords Bestowal is found in Messmers Shadow Keep.Its very likely that Godfrey was one of Marikas most trusted soldiers in the battle with the hornsent and probably the first to be gifted with the power of crucible (as the talisman says,one of the first to receive the precious sap=probably the sap of the scadutree) after she took the gate of divinity for herself.
Cut dialogue also suggests Godfrey deeply cared about Marika and his tarnished,thats why in the final battle with him he treats us with respect and fights honorably,even considering you worthy of fighting him as his warrior self Hoarah Loux.
More likely the sap of the Erdtree in the Age Of Plenty, which quickly dried up.
Marika wanting to help ranni makes sense if you believe she shattered the Elden ring in rebellion against the two fingers and greater will. Ranni would not only release marika of her duty to the GW but sever its connection to the lands between by taking its influence far away into the nights sky.
Kind of sad the game most likely won't get a sequel as I feel like there is still some things to expand upon like the lands beyond the lands between and what it would be like ruling it and having Marika by your side maybe you get invaded or you invade other places. I feel like they purposefully left it open ended for a possible sequel but unlikely sadly. Edit: Thinking about it a prequel would make more sense as well, playing as Godwyn fighting the giants and the Misbegotten and taking over stormveil castle would be nice to see.
8:30 The didn’t kill Iji, the went to protect him, the color of the flames lets you know he was killed by a Godskin.
They went to protect Blaid too but he had lost control after Ranni left and killed them.
I am glad people have found enjoyment in exploring games. It is what all writers live for. Thank you for exploring Elden Ring Tarnished
23:26 ...Somehow it never occurred to me *that's* why Marika's people are called "Numen".
Maybe Queen Marika realized Godwyn was actually cursed and Ranni said she could destroy his body and let his soul live on, getting rid of the curse? Ranni could have had Marika help plan the night of black knives using the black knife assassins, help ranni "steal" a fragment of the rune of death, and then goy tricked by Ranni into killing Godwyn in body rather than soul. The Night of Black Knives could have been both a coverup for godwyns death and a culling by Queen Marika, which she references in her own dialouge "if you become nothing at all, yee shall become not but sacrifices"
I find it funny these past few elden ring videos he's like "I just realized smth. Now I gotta make a whole video about it after this"
consider the unusual texture unique to both radagon and marika. cracked and hollow, containing an elden ring, it does kind of point toward pottery. I recall this being mentioned in a video, if it was brett, oops, its all a blur, but in case it wasnt i thought i'd mention it
he has returned to bless us once more
Honestly I think Marika and Radagon were thrown into a vessel together and they fused together. The idea comes from the Alchemical Rebis, the White Queen and the Red King. They became the perfect being in the eyes of the Hornsent. Perhaps they reached out to the Golden Order to make them whole and used them in their revenge, at least Marika did.
Hey Brett, amazing video as always. If I may, I'd love to see your take on Mass Effect's Reapers and the Illusive Man!
I think you left out one interesting mystery: why did Marika abandon Godfrey? Did she want to make room for Radagon? Did she blame Godfrey for Morgot and Mohg being born omen, cursed beings that reminded her of the hornsent who slaughtered her people?
if you are looking for another game to cover The Forever Winter looks sick
All I know is, I greatly appreciate the new lore on Marika in the DLC.
Ranni was the most like Marika in reality, she had the will *and* the strength to defy the Two Fingers, to do what Marika was unable to do. Sure Marika caused the Shattering, but it took likely everything she had to accomplish it.
16:33 I would argue it does, since going to Castle Morne leads to Irina's death, who then becomes Hyetta.
There are Finger Ruins near Shaman Village. I think the Fingers are operating under outdated orders to establish "Order" in the Lands Between and saw young Marika as a suitable figurehead. They gave her knowledge and power that allowed her to trick and manipulate the Hornsent into worshipping her.
And I'm still partial to the idea that the Golden threads we see during the godhood ritual are part of the Erdtree seed gifted to her by the Fingers.
you brushed against this in the two fingers section, but if Marika wanted her order and therefore her life to continue eternally, why did she have children in the first place? It obviously wasn't because of her loving and nurturing nature. One twisted idea is that these children were always intended as a way of purging her own misdeeds, but why were Miquella and Malenia not shunned along with their older siblings? Maybe Marika had decided by that point to undo herself and the Golden Order, but we know Radagon would not have gone along with that if he knew her plan.
The Shaman's ability to meld flesh with others;
Godrick inherited this trait and hence, grafting was seen as a perversion.
I believe the guidance of Grace leads the Tarnished to Castle Morne because it initates the Frenzied Flame ending through Irina/Hyetta's quest line. If Marika's goal is to die, then I believe that the Frenzied Flame ending is fine by her. If she is to die, so can the world as far as she cares.