The idea that the Gate of Divinity is made out of Hornsent corpses actually retroactively makes the Saint Jars make much more sense. It seems that their ritual actually CAN provide some kind of holy power, and Marika managed to get enough influence among the the Hornsent that she turned their ritual against them in a way
Frankly I think your Elden Ring videos alongside Vaati's are starting to make me think more critically about the characters in a setting more so than the greater theme of the setting itself, and I'm not just trying to glaze. Genuinely good work.
@@chandradefiant595 I think thats the GRRM difference. Previous Souls games had good characters, but Elden Ring seems to be on a different level in terms of giving them multi-layered complexity, which is something that GRRM excels at in his own works.
@@DustDemonTwilight Echoing the recommendation for Tarnished Archaeologist. I've learned so much about Elden Ring, Mesopotamia, stratigraphy, Rome, archaeology, burial rites, etc. watching that channel. It would be worth watching even if I didn't play FromSoft games.
Marika chose to enact a flesh-warping ritual that mirrors how her people were tortured. She tore out the threads of life from countless hornsent, that becoming her final act as a human. I think that decision to be wrathful as she became a goddess is why her golden order was so hypocritical and flawed. She had chosen to make a perfect world by performing abhorrent blood magic.
Very solid point, she tore the literal life strands from the hornsent and probably fused them all together to create the first great rune. At least it's a solid idea. Only issue is, wasn't she already gifted a great rune by the greater will at this point?? A lot of vagueness makes this very difficult to put together 😵💫
I don't think they ever claimed to be peaceful and perfect. Rather they owned the fact that they were built on conquest. I agree with the flawed part but I wouldn't call them hypocrites for being consistent in their practice.
@@swinglow6580 Well, given Metyr and the Two Fingers were already long abandoned by the Greater Will, she probably didn't have any Great Runes until the forging of the Elden Ring or her ascencion to Divinity.
I think that's a good point. It might be interesting if it's not necessarily the specific thing that she did that matters, but more the spirit of it. Miquella didn't quite pull Marika-level genocide, but clearly he also attained divinity. Perhaps there isn't a specific thing that one has to do to become a god at the Gate, but what you do to reach the Gate determines what kind of god you will be.
Enor Ilim is Akkadian for “The Bedchamber of God”, the spiralling architecture is reminiscent of early Sumerian monuments, as well as other Mesopotamian civilisations. It’s also very important to point out that many armoured enemies in the DLC (Divine Lion/Divine Bird warriors) are inspired by these very civilisations. The entire last area of SOTE is literally a Ziqqurat, at which peak gods walk amongst humans.
What's ironic is they look Divine but they're actually weak to Holy dmg. (At least the Divine Bird Warriors are) don't exactly know if the Divine Lion warriors are too. 🤔
@@Rybore13the Bedchamber in Sumera was literally a bedroom, with a bed and everything that would have been in a royal bedchamber except for one thing, servants. In fact there would only be one human in it, a maiden who was selected for her beauty. She would sleep in the bed, and a god was said to have slept with her. Essentially she was the mortal bride of the head Sumerian God. In that way the mortal and the immortal were joined through marriage. Elden Ring draws a lot of lore from Sumerian literature
I always figured that Mohg handled the blood sacrifice aspect of the ritual. After he was charmed, he started making blood sacrifices in Miquellas name to turn him into a god. And Mohgs palace makes it very clear that they amassed enough blood to create literal rivers. So I feel like Mohg unknowingly handled the bloody aspects, and Miquella went the extra step of "purifying" himself with the different divestments he made, to be a pure god, one with his own vision, not one dictated by the will of another
I don't know if you meant it this way but it doesn't state anywhere that Mohg did blood sacrifices only after Miquella's enchantment. And in fact, there is good reason to believe that he had his own blood cult waaay before itself. We have to remember that Mohg is the vessel of the formless mother who yearns for blood sacrifices. Apologies if i misunderstood your comment.
@@Butwhy23 Im aware he made Blood Sacrifices to the Mother of Truth beforehand, but after Miquella charmed him, he started making them in Miquellas name instead in order to turn Miquella into a Blood God after he emerged from his cocoon
@@Butwhy23 I remember reading that Morg's dynasty in the beginning while blood letting etc was still "kinder" until it gradually got worse and worse, perhaps that change could be attributed to Miquella's involvement
It’s worth mentioning that the Hornsent are very adept at molding flesh to suit their needs, having a variety of tools for just such a purpose. So, it stands to reason that Marika used the Hornsents’ own tools and techniques to mold the gate of divinity out of their bodies. But the thing about the hornsent’s flesh-melding is that it doesn’t kill. It’s likely that every body that makes up the gate was still alive during its formation.
Marika DID go through the gate. Look at the trailer footage again. Outside the gate, the sky is dark with heavy clouds. Inside the gate is a golden sky with thinner clouds. This gate is a dimensional portal. Marika here is likely opening the gate, hence why the wind suddenly picks up as she holds the threads
Personally, I theorize she didn't technically go through, but rather it unfolded and overlapped with her. That golden sky through the gate is the Lands Between, being separated from the Realm of Shadow, and Marika included herself and perhaps some of her allies with it-kind of like if the border between two countries moved, but the people who've lived in a little village their whole lives are suddenly in a different country because a line was drawn on a map.The shape of the Realm of Shadow neatly fits into the open spaces/seas of the Lands Between, too.
I feel like so many fromsoft lore channels are more concerned with the hidden lore than what the story itself tells you about a character and how it presents them to the player in a direct way. I’m glad we’ve got people covering this angle now!
Because let’s be honest, the game doesn’t ever explicitly tell you a whole lot. its always a few sentences of lore. No real explanation, because as Bret says in the video. The writers don’t bother explaining because to THEM it doesn’t matter.
It's because the dlc story was bad and they're reaching to pump out any relevant content before the algorithm gives up on their channels. The story and lore was beyond lacking and most channels have already covered everything that isn't speculation.
@KingSleaze916 I wish it wasn't true I see the same from every channel. What can we get out before the masses don't care about this anymore. I love the lore don't get me wrong but I'm not gonna call something that was clearly bad good.
My theory is that Marika's a total lush, and every "inscrutable", mysterious, horrid, and vicious decision she made happened after she was heavily inebriated. And Any defeats she suffered, or hardship she was forced to tolerate, just encouraged her to drink more. Behold, the "Drunk Marika Theory". Remembers what the hornsent did to her? Some "Celestial Dew" washes the memories down. Godwyn, her golden boy, deciding to ally with the dragons and marry one instead of killing them all? She needed lots of "Celestial Dew" that day. Children are born cursed? Nothing more Celestial Dew can't fix. Golden Order lost to the Carians? imbibe the "Celestial Dew" to cope. Godwyn killed? Well, the Elden Ring wasn't the only thing that got smashed. Fighting the Elden Beast, before getting crucified? Takes plenty of liquid courage, I image. And By that point, Marika has hit Rock bottom.
I feel like whatever she did at the gate is meant to be ambigious. Its something so terrible that your own imagination goes wild with ideas, and revealing what happened would ruin any anticipation of it. You're meant to picture your own idea of what a sin so fowl would be that it curses her entire bloodline. So awful that anything that she does with her godhood afterwards will be stained with this original sin.
that's fair but we are just talking about the timeline, timeline isn't that ambiguous imho, it's an important part of the story. either she was a god before the DLC trailer or she wasn't, either she created the Divine gate or she didn't, if she wasn't a god yet then that leads to question how she was able to kill all those Hornsent without godly powers, unless they were killed by someone else
@@joesaiditstrue I think that's in part where the seduction arose from. Marika didn't have to kill the hornsent to build the gate, by working people (esp high and mighty hornsent) into a religious frenzy it's possible she practically had them sacrificing themselves for it, only to ascend and reveal the real plan to finish off the rest of the hornsent after she inherited that kind of power.
@@TheCrazyrubberducky the idea of Hornsent sacrificing themselves on Marika's behalf coincides with some dialogues implying that she was a saint born out of their jars also that's where the betrayal comes too. If she was their saint I'm pretty sure they would do everything for her to become their god since Hornsent were always so "religious" about the Shaman people
Miquella: “Hey Mom, I got you this Jar- Godwyn: “Miquella no!” Miquella: “What’s the problem? It’s just a jar.” Marika: (Horrifying Jar Related Flashbacks)
I’m of the stock that marika was a successful jar saint created by the hornsent. It could explain why she was still able to live among them and was even revered; being a “perfect” amalgamation of life even though she was of shaman decent , who were targeted specifically for said ritual. It could also explain radagons red hair , since there seem to have been giants in the LOS whose flesh could’ve been used, since I found it off that radagon would be the one cursed by the giants when it was Godfrey who was leading the charge. It seem to provide a plausible reason as to how marika would even have the leverage to betray the hornsent in the first place, considering her lineage , and allow her to attain such status and influence. In the end though it seems her intention wasn’t to become a god but to attain the power of one
I think Radagon came far after Marika ascended to godhood. He's likely the result of Marika attempting to purge the Fell curse's influence after she battled the god of the giants. She "split" herself off so she wouldn't be entirely tainted by the fell curse, but it was a flawed split, meaning Radagon had the physical characteristics of the Giants, but also held onto Marika's blind faith in the Greater Will.
@@kikrinman1450 I had thought so too but the only reason I’d be inclined to believe otherwise is the birth of messmer. As we know descendants of radagon bear his red hair which messmer plainly has. While not outright stated it’s heavily inferred , why else would his hair be the exact same color? Also we’ve seen that sacrifices must be made in order to reach the gate of divinity, miquella divulged his very flesh and being while Marika sacrificed tons of hornsent and possibly certain aspects of herself that could’ve resulted in the birth of radagon. While of course it’s all speculation , I too used to think radagon was born sometime after her ascendency , but with the introduction of messmer being marikas firstborn son (speculatively) , now I’m not so sure
but there was a god before Marika, the god of Placidusax. And there is the Fell God. So even if the Gate is Marika creation, there has always been a way for mortals to reach godhood.
That’s a good point and totally possible. Also consider, that If Marikas arc rune is a detail we can cling to for timeline analysis, then we have to take notice that her rune present in the Farum Azula representation of the Elden ring. She may have been the god of that society as well.
When you think about it, the furnace golems might’ve been designed to be Marika and Messmer’s “jars” for the Hornsent: A massive, animated entity powered by living beings stuffed inside it to keep it active.
I think your reasoning that godhood is an equivalent to power and that makes the difference between them and "mortals" is spot on. Runes perfectly encompass this. Power trickles down in the land between, showing even the most common rats (who drop runes) can grow to an unnatural size and ability. This is further shown by your character the tarnished, a regular human guided by grace and given the strength of runes- through the Erdtree. It's also why you aren't as strong in the lands of shadow, and have to collect Scadutree fragments to gain power in that land.
I think that considering Japanese culture and what constitutes a Japanese "kami" or god makes it even clearer. The Japanese conception of a god is not the same as our western one, a Japanese god is a powerful spiritual being and thats pretty much it. A human could even ascend to "kami" status by gaining enough power.
That was my favorite part. I honestly don't get how people don't make the connection. Maybe looking in the reeds too much. But it seemed obvious to me that the gods of whatever time were just the ones who amassed the most power first. It works better when you know the world origin. The whole one great thing, where everything was all one thing and split off into bespoke things and forms of energy. That would mean that the demigods are made of the same stuff as everyone else. They're just the biggest and brightest collections of stardust. I think goldmask himself probably happened upon similar truths in his pursuits of golden order fundamentalism, which when you delve deeper into yourself, may realize that it works an awful lot like glintstone magic and that incantantions and sorceries actually aren't different things drawing on different power. He was all like "So these gods are just people with lots more of the same power that makes everything else exist, and power like that doesn't need wielders with no better wisdom or innate divinity than your average noble." Truly, the universe of Elden Ring is ITSELF the divine thing. Everything else is just someone who came along trying to categorize it in ways that would trickle more of that divine power their way. Because of that, anyone can become a god, but never a truly perfect divine being. The power that makes gods is the power of all life and all things. It will always be bigger than any one vessel can hold. Everything and everyone that exists is just one part of the whole, and thus cannot themselves become the whole. What you get will always be incomplete. And perhaps it could be argued that bottling up that power to use to your own ends is what severs your connection to actual divinity.
14:21 i believe it's more Miquella sensing that Radahn was on the verge of breaking free, so he had to attach himself to Radahns back to keep him in control
This is what Lore videos need: A clear hypothesis, research to back it up and an narrative spun around it that you can follow. Congratulations: You excelled in what many lore videos only did somewhat okay. Thank you!
I’m not entirely discounting the idea of femme fatale Marika. But the idea seems like a stretch to me. Words like “seduction” and “affair” are not strictly sexual terms (even if they’re commonly used that way). It’s more likely, in my opinion, that Marika simply gained the Hornsent’s trust and admiration, then eventually betrayed them. Marika being called a “strumpet” could just be a baseless insult. Since we have no reason to believe that Hornsent old woman ever knew Marika directly or indirectly. Yet we know she has a lot of reasons to hate Marika for what she did to the Hornsent. While Marika being barely clothed in the scene seems more like the writers are symbolizing Marina’s rebirth as a god. Since nakedness is sometimes associated with birth and rebirth.
miquellas ritual was killing the tarnished guided by him, hornsent talks about it at Scadu Altus "blood must spill at that god forsaken place, blood of your kind"
I agree with your theory. *_Marika wanted to die._* She had learned what St Trina was desperate to prevent Miquella from finding out. That's why she conspired with her Numen assassins to merk her favorite son, she knew he would probably be the victor in the coming sibling battle and took his life as a mercy. Then she shattered the elden ring trying to sever the Greater Will's influence upon the lands between. Marika watched as her beautiful utopia stagnated and crumbled, yet she herself was unable to change.
St. Trina knew it... godhood is a curse. To become a host, a shell, for an outer being's power and will to enact whatever order they deemed with no empathy for you or anyone else's desires. Who ever or whatever you are utterly lost to the order. Even as all crumbles and fades and tarnishes you will remain... alone.. at the the behest of your God. With grim determination this hammer shattered the anvil. I remain at the precipice. Let the world go on free of Gods. Let it heal without cruel hands. Mercy, mercy for the poor, wizened child.
Interesting video. One minor thing that I would point out about Marika's golden bracelet is the shape. It's a spiral, a holy symbol among the Hornsent. In all likelihood, it was put there by the Hornsent, perhaps even as some sort of wedding band, denoting status or at the very least celebrated alliance.
The affair and seduction could mean that marika was seduced to summon an outer god or invite it into her bodyas a host. If you you think about Eternal Darkness, Pious had to build a tower of flesh too as a requirement to summon a specific ancient into this dimension. This also plays into the theme of power as oftentimes these outer gods are constantly trying to extend their influence over the others. Also when Marika is holding up the threads of gold in the air it is the song that is played during the eldenbeast fight.
Bro I love that you remember eternal darkness probably one of the best horror games I have ever played and remember your character ended up part of the tower I was soo haunted by that damn you brought me back with that
Worth mentioning: the Marika statues in the Land of Shadow have not just a more inviting pose but a bare leg forward and a specific emphasis on her hips that the more recent statues don’t. She’s also wearing less jewelry than the recent statues or even the story trailer. At risk of reading into it TOO much, she seems like an object of worship before she fully ascended to godhood, and a few item descriptions suggest she briefly had a cult within the tower society
The Gate of Divinity reminds me of achieving immortality through the creation of a Philosopher's Stone (from the anime, Fullmetal Alchemist). Many have to be sacrificed to reach ultimate power.
I'm a fan of the theory that Marika has some sort of relationship to The Gloam Eyed Queen, they're either dopplegangers, twins, two beings sharing the same body, something. But they are equal and opposite of each other Gideon considers himself some sort of Expert on the back story of Marika. Notice that after defeating his Demigods that he mentions, he gives you first a Golden Order spell followed by a Gloam Eyed Queen spell. The DLC trailer shows the sky surrounding Marika being half dusk, half golden It also says An affair from which gold arose (Marika), and too was shadow born (Gloam Eyed Queen) I also believe that Melina and Messmer are twin siblings of Radagon+Gloam eyed Queen. The Abductor Virgins I believe depict Marika stealing a child. The game never outright states that Melina and Messmer are children of Marika, it's left intentionally ambiguous
@@joesaiditstrueI thought messmer was referred to as Marika’s son multiple times. When he dies he says “mother… marika…” and Melina is implied to be messmer’s younger sister. Melina also says in the base game that she was born at the foot of the erdtree.
@@joesaiditstrue Well to build on that, the mound of flesh Marika pulls the golden strands from at the gate of divinity seems awfully similar to the skin the godskin apostles wear. What if the corpse Marika pulls the strands from is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, ridding herself of her other half in much the same way Miquella discards St. Trina in his own quest for divinity? Except Marika didn't just discard her part, she actively sacrificed it in a vile ritual. It obviously clashes with us being told Maliketh killed the GEQ though, but one could stretch it being Marika propaganda as to cover up her vile act and the identity of the GDQ, especially with how incredibly vague anything related to her is.
@@perstongravey4556 you're assuming he knows who his real mother is. Marika abducted him as an infant, as well as Melina. Messmer believes his mother is Marika. I think it's more likely that Melina actually knows her mother was the Gloam Eyed Queen, but that's pure speculation
@@joesaiditstrue Honestly, this might not be far from the truth...take miquella and st trina, marika and radagon. GRRM's fascination with human heart in conflict with itself quite personified multiple times on multiple occassions.
I find it kind of interesting that the Gate of Divinity is vulvic in form. We see Marika remove something from a mass of flesh that looks like a vulva, and ascend bloody stairs to an opening to "birth" her age into being.
Something interesting. The music during the story trailer supports the theory of marika and the elden ring, as the song playing during the part of her at the gate is the elden beast theme. Something i find interesting is how from soft tells a lot about story through the soundtrack, which makes me wonder, why is it rominas theme that plays during the display of messmers crusade? One of the shots even depicts someone on the ground with a blade that looks very similar to the one on rominas halberd. In my opinion, this clearly means romina has some great significance to all of this.
I think each of the Demigods tell the story Marika. Goddrick grafting is similar the shaman pots. Radahn seals the fate of the stars similar to sealing the rune of death. Ranni betrays the Golden Order similar to Marika betraying the hornsent. Mohg scrafices Miquella so he can become a god similar to the gate of divinity covered in blood in the DLC trailer. Malenia is similar to Maliketh.
He's a sentence. Varré is the perfect replication of a true believer, a fanatic. Dude is going out and spreading the word, getting others to follow Mohg. He adores and worships the blood with orgasmic delight.
Hundreds of petrified corpses can also be seen in Nokstella, one of the eternal cities. As I was running a friend through the area, I noticed these which reminded me of the gate in Enir. Also when she is ripping golden threads out of that "thing," that to me doesn't look like a mass of flesh. It looks like something bundled up in cloth and the round bit is probably a head. So she ripped the gold hair off the head off something. Was it her child with whom she had with someone? Perhaps a hornsent?
You Just made me notice One important thing: Radagon's inside, so the elden Beast, HAS the Radagon Seal within, but NOT the rune arc that Marika creates during this ritual. The Scarseal of both Marika and Radagon states:" These seals represent the lifelong duty of those chosen by the gods." While She was chosen at the beginning and made this rune, He was able to create It when in the end merged with Marika
But he marked his rune to someone before the ER was shattered as we found it in one of Caelid's castles. So maybe he was capable to do it even before the end. P.s: If rune rappresent people, Radagon's rune reminds the symbol of Raya Lucaria Gates, something very important for him.
What if the bodies that make up the gate of divinity aren’t Hornsent, but actually Shamans? Shaman flesh melds together so this could explain how it’s made out of bodies.
I don't know why people keep thinking the gate is made up of Hornsent. It makes more sense that it's made from Shamans. What would be shocking, is if Marika is the one who told the Hornsent to use her people's flesh to achieve this.
@@natanelle1277 There's pictures online where it shows the gate isn't made entirely of Hornsent. There are plenty of older, hornless corpses mixed throughout the gate.
When Marika shatters the Elden Ring in the opening Cinematic, the immediate next scene is of her kneeling over while her body crumbles as she is the vessel for the Elden ring.
Knowing that the Hornsent made those jars out of bodies, Hornsent could have built that gate akin to that but since Marika was the only one in this shot, it must be a twisted reflection of the Shaman's torture
My theory? The reason the Hornsent were so desperate to create Saints was because the Gates of Divinity were created from a similar, if not the same process. The Hornsent were using captives of war to create a literal doorway to godhood, either having discovered the method to create the gate through immense, inhumane experimentation, or they had discovered the Gates of Divinity and the Saints were their attempts at reverse engineering the process. I think the former theory would be more appropriate, as the Hornsent's attempt at creating a God would result in the creation of a God who was born to hate and despise them, their captive Queen Marika assembling the forces to wipe them out.
Shaman's flesh has gold in it. The mention of betrayal specifically in this scene. What's possible is that she sacrificed her own people to build it. Possibly taking some inspiration from the Hornsent Jar experiment. The only shaman's we ever see are Merika, jar people, and the Grandmother's corpse.
Great video, one of the best lore takes I've seen about Shadow of the Erdtree. These games naturally invite speculation: what happened, who exactly did what and so on. But while fun, it is important to filter important questions from less important ones. Speculating about details of biography of Marika is one thing, but determining what it meant is another. It is of great value to concentrate on these crucial themes first. What you said here puts into new perspective the rest of Marika's life. On the side note it is kind of hilarious and From Soft-like that most of it could be inferred from the trailer alone. They are good at teasing us.
i like the idea that the sacrifice demanded of Marika was send by Metyr, essentially everything Marika did, every hornsent she killed to achieve her perfect world was pointless, it was never there, she was never going to get her perfect world, same goes for Miquella, every piece he discarded, Trina, Malenia, his promises to his people, in the end it didn’t matter, their struggles mean nothing, their all just broken things following other broken things, repeating this cycle over and over again, the flaw was already planted before any of them were born, all that came from the One Great are flawed
This is a really good observation and explination. She is the arc and this 'crucifx' pose of all her statues only paints her as a sacrificual god to those familiar with Christ. In reality, it's the very real body language of her power, the arc. It's why arc runes EMPOWER which ever othr rune we have equiped. Why did I not piece this together. She is the arc/spine and this empowers the rest of the 'ring'. Good stuff!
FatBrett mentions (regarding Marika's ascension) that we don't know what happened and CAN NOT know what happened. Which is interesting to me because it reminds me of the Golden Braid item flavor text: "What was her prayer? Her wish, her confession? There is no one left to answer."
Hey Brett! Great work! Awesome introspection and analysis as always! Love that you point out Marika's clothing and jewelry. Wanted to point out in the dlc trailer we see Marika's bracelet, it is gold sure, but it's also coiled around her wrist like a snake. Her posing as a cross? To me says she was some kind of "golden cow", an idol of worship and given what we learn of her people's fate? Likely a sacrificial lamb. I can't help but think that the gate of divinity has something to do with her jarred and sacrificed people, only for whatever ritual it was meant to be got turned on its head.
Great ideas :) wondering if the snake-like bracelets & snake-like Godskin-esque corpse could imply Marika rose to become the consort to a God-like being who she sacrificed to make her new Rune?
I'm beginning to think that Markia's betrayal was two fold, that she betrayed her own people and the hornsent. I think she figured out the idea of melding flesh, and offered aid in experimenting on her own people to the hornsent. Then when the hornesnt perfected it, she snatched God hood from them at the last moment. It would line up with her genocide and efforts to hide all this land in shadow, as such a horrific betrayal is certainly something she would want erased from history. I always thought it was a little strange she would hide it all just for one war. Even a genocide, in a setting like this, could probably be brushed aside as "they were all evil. We are holy they were unholy, therefore we did nothing wrong". I get that she was probably hiding the gate too, but it seems to me she did something way worse than just the crusade.
I agree with your point that she betrayed her people too, in one way or another. Think about how the jar innards were left behind in the shadow realm to rot. I always read "There was no one left to heal" with a double meaning; there is no one left, and no one would have accepted her healing.
Would make her revenge on the Hornsent a little strange if she was complicit in the torture of her own people as well. Then again, nothing is off limits for Marika if she was feeling extra pragmatic to get what she wants.
@VictorIV0310 I'm thinking it wasn't for revenge but to silence them. They know her secret and could use it to ruin her new order. She can sweep a lot of atrocities under the rug as the greater good, but the whole sale betrayal and slaughter of her people for the sake of power would be impossible to justify. Although now I'm wondering, if all who knew her secret (the hornsent and her own people) are dead, how did miquella learn all of this? I guess Marika could have told him, but why just tell someone after so much effort to hide it? Maybe he charmed her into telling him?
Speculation: the "seduction" and "betrayal" might indicate that the hornsent were actively trying to make Marika into a god. The jar rituals are already meant to produce saints. What if Marika played along and convinced them to do the same on a more grand scale? And what makes it a betrayal is that once they gave her the power, she turned it against them. Not sure how the Elden ring fits with this though. We know that Elden beast is the elden ring, and that it arrived to lands between in a golden star. Did the ritual bind the Elden beast to her? Or was she already its vessel (if so, would she not already be a god?)? Or did the beast cpme only after? I'm leaning to the ritual sealing the Elden beast in her or transforming it into the Elden ring, because - the main game ties divinity tightly to Elden beast. You get the "god slain" message when you kill it. - Elden stars item description says "which would later become the Elden Ring." Wo the beast was not always the Elden ring, but became it.
When I see the petrified corpses, I'm reminded of the stone figures in the eternal cities, especially in the dragonkin boss room. I'd be interesting if Marika found a way to essentially industrialize her people's shamanic practice using the spirits of others as fuel for things like the ghost glovewort we find under the giant chairs.
A few people have pointed out that Miquella's godhood was founded upon bloodshed too. The way into the dlc requires you to ascend up Mohg's palace; a palace built upon blood. Miquella divesting himself of his body is an act of purification. To cleanse himself of the evils he forced other to commit in order to claim godhood. He is much like his mother, both wanting to create their ideal world and slaughtering untold numbers of people to do so.
I can't be the only person - and I only say 'only person' because I'm yet to spot a comment saying it - that thinks the gate looks like a vagina? The womb of creation. The gateway of birth. Makes a lot of sense.
Can i just say. Ive barely stumbled upon your channel and i absolutely ADORE the way you analyze media. You go so in depth and have us view the story in a way that many others would not notice or even think to notice. It feels like im getting a lessoon from a professor. I fucking love your channel!!!!!
Personal opinion, i think the seduction isnt something Marika did intentionally. I think personally, based on the whip marks on her arm, the hornsent successfully turned her into a saint. The seduction was Marikas first ascension into a saint, maybe Marika even convinced them somehow that her sainthood lent favor to the hornsent. The betrayal i would then believe is her convincing the hornsent to build the gate of divinity through bloody ritual, perhaps with a promise that they would ascend with her to godhood, fully planning on ascending and then burning the shadow realm for what the hornsent did to her people.
Interesting video. I wouldnt compare Marika to a femme fatale archetype, for to me, the violence and chaos that erupts from her puts me more in mind of the greek tragedy of Medea. A sort of proto-woman scorned, if you will.
It hadn't really occurred to me that Marika's bracelets might imply some amount of power/wealth/influence prior to the ritual. I think an important point that supports this interpretation (rather than her still being enslaved, but adorned for the prestige of those subjugating her) is that we know from the statues that Marika continues to wear those bracelets well into her rule. Marika went very far out of her way to eradicate things that evoke her pre-ascension trauma, enemies, etc., even if those vestiges are her own children. Only big exception I can think of is her sanitized recreation of the Saint Jar ritual, which would probably be the most distasteful to her personally were it not strongly implied to be an essential element of maintaining the crucible current from which she derives power. If those bracelets were associated with her subjugation, it doesn't seem in her character to keep them around, especially as the narrative has nothing to say about them. I think it's still quite possible that the Hornsent were complicit in constructing the gate itself. We know that they were obsessed with communing with the crucible current and that many Hornsent aspired to divinity, though it's not obvious what their goal was. Did they simply regard such communion as manifestly good? Were they just curious? Were they trying to create their own god? We know that in some twisted way they genuinely revered the jar saints, which are basically the divine gate on a smaller scale. It's a little ambiguous whether they actually worshipped any other gods, as it appears that they were mostly focused on the crucible current directly. It seems they might have tolerated the church of the bud, were haunted by the Fell God, regarded the Frenzied Flame with extreme caution. The body that Marika pulls the threads from still makes me think of Godskin robes, so maybe the gloam-eyed queen was there. We do know that her death rites prevented the accumulation of putrescence. Might be an intentional ambiguity that sticks with us forever.
These videos are so well-made that it takes me a little bit of time for me to watch through them. Sometimes you don’t even realize that the last video was almost 2 weeks ago😅
This could be wild speculation on my part but did we ever get the origin of the Death Bed Companions? Marika might have been something of an origin point for that taking/stealing the vitality from Hornsent to gain enough power to eventually betray them in their weakened state with the practice twisting and becoming seen as more noble by the current age.
i think the music of the gate scene tells a story in itself. as marika walks up the stairs we hear the music from her home village, and when she holds up the runes and her hair lifts up the Elden Beast music plays or at least the same music as when he comes out of radagons body. i think thats all supposed to imply we might be watching the moment she turned from mortal to god
Jesus man, you subs have SKY ROCKETED lately! and for good reason! I've been subbed since you had about 18k subs - You constantly pump out quality content, well researched, well formatted, well written, you take constructive feedback on the chin and use it to improve your future content. Well done my friend, well deserved. Keep it up.
Assuming that Marika created the Divine gate, that would mean she was already a powerful god prior to that DLC trailer who was capable of mass murdering hundreds of Hornsent, or she had a powerful army under her command as a normal Numen
Or the deception was her offering to bring the hornsent into godhood with her after coming out of a jar. She has the whip marks, and she is stated to have RETURNED home. My assumption is she became a saint through the jar method, and because of that, the hornsent saw her as a holy symbol. I would think Marika, harboring hatred for the hornsent, would command them to make the gate of divinity, offering them ascension, but in reality, plotting their demise as she ascends to godhood alone, only to return later to finish putting the hornsent to the torch.
@@joshuamagruder2241 Good point. At the same time, where is Godfrey, or at the time, Hoarah Loux in all this? We've seen in Elden Ring that every god needs a consort, and he was the First Elden Lord. It makes sense if she seduced him and used his strength to escape or sacrifice the hornsent there. Granted, I dont think he's mentioned in the DLC, so its speculation at this point.
Everytime you say "while you watch this, think about..." I get reminded of my time back in school, when the teachers would put on a video or short clip but tell you to take note of certain things in the video. Nothing wrong with it, I just feel like I'm back in a learning environment again.
If Elden Ring gets a second DLC I genuinely think it'll cover the outer gods and what godhood really means. Feels like the Elden Ring equivalent to DS3 and the Ringed City
@@buckyhurdle4776 could be manus. Dont think it was ever confirmed though. Meant moreso the lineage of the furtive pygmy with the circle of chairs in gael's fight. Along with the last lord clawing away from Gael in the cutscene
What I am really confused about which I am not sure is talked about is the fact Marika still lives and is the only living one out of her entire family tree as you need to kill every single child of hers to get the elden ring/rune, but how the shattering even began was because of her son godrick dying so it baffles me that she invited all the tarnished back to literally kill the rest of her children is really confusing to me. I know in the story something about Marika tricking us that Gideon talks about but clearly he was wrong as we do become a Lord in the end and we do kill gods so Marika knew fully well someone would eventually kill all her children but that begs the question of why? As the entire start of the story is based off her child dying. I also feel like a sequel is plausible as Marika still being alive is pretty clearly intentional for the fact her entire family dies yet she still lives. (Also I am confused of why our character clearly kneels to put Marika's head on because we know fully well that Marika is the whole reason this game in general happened so I feel like there's a lot of missing pieces to why our character still clearly respects Marika.)
The thing is, the Tower of Babel wasn’t built because the Sumerians were arrogant. I remember reading somewhere that the Tower of Babel was built for their gods as a sort of temple for worship, rather than because they were arrogant, although the Book of Genesis says otherwise. Maybe that could factor into something or make something become clearer by looking into the Mesopotamian mythos? Bab-ilu is the Sumerian name for Babel, which means “The Gate of God.” This is definitely worth looking into further for the lore, in my opinion, at least.
I mean, the book of Genesis actually says that they built it as a symbol of unity, then God got really scared of the idea of us working together, so created different languages to separate us.
What you’re saying doesn’t conflict actually. Man is tricked by lesser pagan spirits (gods) into extending their reach past what they are made for / able to handle. They build the Gate of God to become like God in a promethean type gambit that causes a backfire. Since divinity is impossible for mortals a myriad of failsafes and punishments befall them for their hubris. Thus satiating the one that tricked them in the first place. The tower of babel was always about usurpation. You can’t serve the highest good if you seek the highest power for yourself.
@@stevendouglas3781 "If they achieve this there will be no limit to what they can accomplish." Says something along those lines right before confusing our languages. And it fits with other moments too. Like in the garden where God is scared we'll eat from the tree of eternal life after gaining knowledge and being like him. It's oddly consistent that the god of the bible is threatened by the idea of us getting smart and independent.
@@quietone2674 again, you’ve cleary learned about this stuff through gnosticism. If God exists why would he be afraid of us? Afraid of what? Beating him up like Goku? Very silly. You’re also assuming that the power the tower represented was purely good. That we should be able to do whatever we want. If humanity had a one world government things would become incredibly tyrannical. If a father has a son with a deathly peanut allergy, he’s not abusive for smacking the jar of skippy from his hands before it’s too late.
5:34 While it doesn’t alter your overall point all that much, part of being “a bull in a china shop” is that the bull breaking things is *unintentional,* because it’s a big animal surrounded by fragile items. Shadow of the Erdtree is, by contrast, very much intentional.
I've found it weird how people latch onto the words "seduction" and "betrayal" and act like Marika is some big bad villain and the Hornsent are these poor, helpless innocemts when we know for fact that it was the exact opposite.
That's a good point, however, if the Hornsent are indeed what makes up the Gate, Marika did the exact same act that was done to her: two wrongs don't make a right. Also someone suggested that perhaps some of the Gate was also made up of Nemune, they're the race that has the mailable flesh after all. So perhaps the betrayal was to her own people
@@bubblegumnnebula Oh I completely agree, Marika went off the deep end and did some really fucked up shit. I'm just saying that people tend to forget how it started and that the Hornsent aren't blameless.
@@bubblegumnnebula Do we know that shaman flesh is truly malleable like the Hornsent say?When playing, I just assumed that was a Hornsent excuse to justify their actions. A lot of Genocides in history were inspired by made up reasons to justify their actions. The Hornsent were obsessed with divinity, and their rituals. The way I look at it, the Hornsent saw the peaceful shamans as easy targets for their rituals, but knew that what they were doing was evil. So they made up the shaman flesh being more malleable bs, as a way to justify their actions.
Writing this now while the idea is still fresh in my head. This is a big what if: What if the Hornsent successfully created the Saint, and it was Marika. Combining all the bodies in jars always seemed to result in feminine forms being primarily carrying the rest of the blob. So what if Marika was a success, and the Hornsent listened to this Saint of theirs who then used their belief to burn them. That’s the only thing that would make sense regarding why any of the Hornsent would trust her enough to consider what she did a betrayal. It would also give context to why Godrick (and by extension Godefroy) would use grafting as a way of increasing their power. Something I always assumed was that something about Marika was plant like (self fertilization) and her offspring also had plant like features (grafting). So if the Saint was basically a bunch of people grafted together into one being, like a sort of man made crucible, then the Hornsent would happily listen to the words of this being and believe it without question until it was too late.
While I do love learning about the physical events that happen in the lore, I also really appreciate having a look into the characters themselves. Your previous video on Marika has made her even more fascinating as a character to me, especially how her fundamental flaws became her own undoing. On the topic of fallen civilizations, I would love to see you analyzing the story and characters of Warframe. Behind it's power fantasy, there is a very well-written but often overlooked story with equally fascinating characters. If you somehow manage to come across this comment, FatBrett, PLEASE make a series on Warframe, I would absolutely love to hear your take on it!
I made a post, not two days ago, theorizing that Marika was responsible for the Gate of Divinity construction. I speculated that she not only betrayed the Hornsent by stealing divinity for herself, but also betrayed her own people. She sacrificed her people in their entirety, to meld the bodies that comprise the Gate together. I don't believe that the Hornsent 'jarred' the Shamans into extinction, because then they wouldn't be able to make any more jars
I think you cracked it, Bret! I love this idea, that Marika is the first, most important, foundational rune of her Golden Order. I think that she must have studied the vile jar ritual the hornsent performed on her people and found a way to turn it against them. A way to avenge them while also stealing their lives, their faith, their power for themselves.
I don't know if this will make sense but Marika reminds me of King Midas especially with how their desires came before their morality. Marika didn't seem to care what she had to do to ascend to godhood and people like Godfrey or her children were simply tools she could use to fulfill her goals which even without her knowledge, was build on a lie
And in the end she realized far to late what she became, which i why i like to imagine before she shattered the elden ring she looked into a mirrior and saw either two different things, herself as a hornsent or worst morgott and mogh bloody and beaten, staring back angry, hatred filled, scared, then the mirror shatters when she trys touching it showing what she has become/done
Miss Chalice has a really good pair of videos on this topic, splitting the matter into a video about the hornsent and a video about the shamans. She draws a link between the shamans that could manipulate flesh, the jars which were constructed using the bodies of the shamans and other organic matter, the goal of the hornsent to reach divinity through the tower of Babel like structure, and the subsequent betrayal of the hornsent by Marika and vengeful genocide, which could be seen as retribution for how the hornsent used her people as a material for their ends.
@@eveexeTV oh, we've got a sage here. Please tell me, what are those pile of flesh and who's seduced who and what we're the details of Marika's ascension?
One thing that supports marika being a femme fatale is that in the bewitching branch, miquella LEARNED how to compel affection. Had to learn it from someone…
Your approach to the story is what I believe most of Fromsoftware games are about. They only show us what is relevant to what they are trying to say, we dont need to know the full story, some points are irrelevant and are made for us to fill the gaps. One of the few creators pointing it out
I think the Divine gate was connected to the divine bridge in Leyndell (were the golem lies next to the talisman) I think its placement matches and it leads directly to Leyndell/the Erdtree. IIt is on a very high vantage point when you look down at the water and before the Shadowlands were veiled maybe it was the first place Marika set foot as a God. Maybe the Roundtable keep were built in its base to protect it after some time.
Power - in most but not all cases - is not corrupt/cursed on it's own. It's the gunman who pulls the trigger, not the gun itself. What Marika aquired was just it, the power, the figurative "gun", that could've been used in any possible way. She chose the way, and it was revenge. That part alone doesn't make her pure evil. It doesn't even make her into any sort of villian. After aquiring godhood she simply became an instrument of retribution, avenging her tortured and murdered shaman folk. And there's nothing wrong or right about this. It's just how human nature works. Now, what the real problem is, whatever Marika did, power was the only thing she gained. No cosmic wisdom, no greater insight on the nature and structure of the world. Just. Pure. Power. How she used it in her rule was entirely wrong. Mind me, her ignorance doesn't justify her actions and only the ultimate sacrifice she made in the end can somehow redeem her, but doesn't it ring any bells? Fromsoft has showed us earlier, that power is not what makes a god, as a human mind with all its flaws cannot use this power in a rightful way. And Marika is not just a human (numen/shaman/whatever, doesn't make any difference her, as her mind is still a mind of a being similar to us), she's traumatized. And everything she did, including but not limited to destroying the hornsent, removing Rune of Death, shattering the Elden Ring was dictated by her trauma, not by any kind of corruption or curse.
Beautifully said. I was thinking about this earlier, what does it take to ascend? What makes a God different from a human besides power levels? Why is someone more qualified to be a God versus another? Gods are omniscient and omnipotent beings, and with such power, a God must be devoid of human nature. Otherwise we get Gods like Marika, who use their power in violent and vengeful ways. Human nature is to seek retribution, to be selfish, to put oneself first, often times to the detriment of others. That's what makes us human, our inherent flaws. And the other side of the discussion, is Marika at fault for wanting and becoming a God? Her intentions initially were pure, to create a better world without the despair that death brings, but the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is fundamentally true, especially in Marika's case. The Hornsent were evil in what they did to herself and her people, was eradicating them a net positive? I love these questions Elden Ring presents, I could spend hours combing through the sheer amount of philosophical questions.
@@bubblegumnnebula and here we have Miquella, who devoided himself of human nature. Pure and radiant, he wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. There is nothing more terrifying. It's not about devoiding oneself from their "past" nature. It's transcending it without losing the connection and understanding. It's where both of them failed, with Marika staying human too much (I cannot help myself, but to compare her to Gwyn), wielding power beyond human comprehension without knowledge and responsibility, and Miquella straying too far away from his human self, wielding love as a weapon of tyranny without a faintest illusion of free will. So the fault is not in wanting to become a god, but in not realizing what it takes to be one. As for the Hornsent being evil - it might be our perspective. Or Marika's for sure. But the truth is, they were a different culture/civilization. Whatever they did it was morally right from their perspective. As their eradication was morally right in Marika's eyes. But yet again, it's not inherently positive or negative, it's the way a new civilization takes over an old one, absorbing and adapting or destroying everything "alien" to itself. We've seen it happening numerous times in our history.
My theory is this, the gate of divinity is an "altar" not a gate, The horn bastards were killing the shamans and mashing them together to try I get divinity, Marika took a page of that book, killed a whole lot of those bastards and made the "Gate", so much bloodsheed drew the attention of one of the ourter gods, in this case the owner of the elden beast, and that god granted power to Marika but also created Radagon as an enforcer to keep Marika in check.
The idea that the Gate of Divinity is made out of Hornsent corpses actually retroactively makes the Saint Jars make much more sense. It seems that their ritual actually CAN provide some kind of holy power, and Marika managed to get enough influence among the the Hornsent that she turned their ritual against them in a way
Oh, you can achieve spiritual power by mashing corpses together? Ok, bet. Watch this
@@buckyhurdle4776 well atleast she pulled something from the corpses soo there must be some logic to it
It would explain why she worked so hard to slaughter them. How best to keep anyone else from attempting it than to try and purge the world of Hornsent
@@skyler1469it looks like she pulled a rune from a godskin apostle/Noble corpse, it looked like stitched skin
this makes brett always calling marika a schemer make even more sense lol
Frankly I think your Elden Ring videos alongside Vaati's are starting to make me think more critically about the characters in a setting more so than the greater theme of the setting itself, and I'm not just trying to glaze. Genuinely good work.
The character writing of elden ring’s characters is very impressive, especially for a video game
@@chandradefiant595 I think thats the GRRM difference. Previous Souls games had good characters, but Elden Ring seems to be on a different level in terms of giving them multi-layered complexity, which is something that GRRM excels at in his own works.
@@zoid_on_youtube Yes there is definitely some of that GRRMness to it. Especially with the incest themes
i'd suggest you check out Kosmos for deep character analysis and tarnished archeologist for map analysis.
@@DustDemonTwilight Echoing the recommendation for Tarnished Archaeologist. I've learned so much about Elden Ring, Mesopotamia, stratigraphy, Rome, archaeology, burial rites, etc. watching that channel. It would be worth watching even if I didn't play FromSoft games.
One really interesting detail: if you slash at the Gate of Divinity's stone staircase, _it bleeds._ Kinda tells you a lot about Marika's mindset.
I mean you can see visibly that the whole thing is Made of corpses
Berserk anyone?
@@Snailshroom yeah the berserk refrence is all around the board. Like in every From Soft game
How @@Snailshroom
@@KINGOFTHESPARKS755 Petrified corpses, the fact that it bleed suggests that the flesh isn't actually dead.
Marika chose to enact a flesh-warping ritual that mirrors how her people were tortured. She tore out the threads of life from countless hornsent, that becoming her final act as a human. I think that decision to be wrathful as she became a goddess is why her golden order was so hypocritical and flawed. She had chosen to make a perfect world by performing abhorrent blood magic.
And then our stupid ass comes in and now has to probably double time it as elden lord and god, as well unlike her we're just the clean up crew
Very solid point, she tore the literal life strands from the hornsent and probably fused them all together to create the first great rune. At least it's a solid idea. Only issue is, wasn't she already gifted a great rune by the greater will at this point?? A lot of vagueness makes this very difficult to put together 😵💫
I don't think they ever claimed to be peaceful and perfect. Rather they owned the fact that they were built on conquest. I agree with the flawed part but I wouldn't call them hypocrites for being consistent in their practice.
@@swinglow6580 Well, given Metyr and the Two Fingers were already long abandoned by the Greater Will, she probably didn't have any Great Runes until the forging of the Elden Ring or her ascencion to Divinity.
I think that's a good point. It might be interesting if it's not necessarily the specific thing that she did that matters, but more the spirit of it. Miquella didn't quite pull Marika-level genocide, but clearly he also attained divinity. Perhaps there isn't a specific thing that one has to do to become a god at the Gate, but what you do to reach the Gate determines what kind of god you will be.
Enor Ilim is Akkadian for “The Bedchamber of God”, the spiralling architecture is reminiscent of early Sumerian monuments, as well as other Mesopotamian civilisations.
It’s also very important to point out that many armoured enemies in the DLC (Divine Lion/Divine Bird warriors) are inspired by these very civilisations.
The entire last area of SOTE is literally a Ziqqurat, at which peak gods walk amongst humans.
huh. rare Sumarian video game influence.
This is the coolest comment ever. Tell me more
What's ironic is they look Divine but they're actually weak to Holy dmg. (At least the Divine Bird Warriors are) don't exactly know if the Divine Lion warriors are too. 🤔
@@Rybore13watch the most recent Tarnished Archeologist video. Eye opening.
@@Rybore13the Bedchamber in Sumera was literally a bedroom, with a bed and everything that would have been in a royal bedchamber except for one thing, servants. In fact there would only be one human in it, a maiden who was selected for her beauty. She would sleep in the bed, and a god was said to have slept with her. Essentially she was the mortal bride of the head Sumerian God. In that way the mortal and the immortal were joined through marriage. Elden Ring draws a lot of lore from Sumerian literature
I always figured that Mohg handled the blood sacrifice aspect of the ritual. After he was charmed, he started making blood sacrifices in Miquellas name to turn him into a god. And Mohgs palace makes it very clear that they amassed enough blood to create literal rivers. So I feel like Mohg unknowingly handled the bloody aspects, and Miquella went the extra step of "purifying" himself with the different divestments he made, to be a pure god, one with his own vision, not one dictated by the will of another
I don't know if you meant it this way but it doesn't state anywhere that Mohg did blood sacrifices only after Miquella's enchantment. And in fact, there is good reason to believe that he had his own blood cult waaay before itself. We have to remember that Mohg is the vessel of the formless mother who yearns for blood sacrifices.
Apologies if i misunderstood your comment.
@@Butwhy23 Im aware he made Blood Sacrifices to the Mother of Truth beforehand, but after Miquella charmed him, he started making them in Miquellas name instead in order to turn Miquella into a Blood God after he emerged from his cocoon
i actually love this, it just makes sense that Miquella would take advantage of all that sacrifice, and he kinda make it his own by controlling Mohg.
@@dorrianbrooks9408 oh cool. That is why i mentioned that i might be misunderstanding what your comment meant.
My bad.
@@Butwhy23 I remember reading that Morg's dynasty in the beginning while blood letting etc was still "kinder" until it gradually got worse and worse, perhaps that change could be attributed to Miquella's involvement
It’s worth mentioning that the Hornsent are very adept at molding flesh to suit their needs, having a variety of tools for just such a purpose. So, it stands to reason that Marika used the Hornsents’ own tools and techniques to mold the gate of divinity out of their bodies. But the thing about the hornsent’s flesh-melding is that it doesn’t kill. It’s likely that every body that makes up the gate was still alive during its formation.
Marika DID go through the gate. Look at the trailer footage again. Outside the gate, the sky is dark with heavy clouds. Inside the gate is a golden sky with thinner clouds. This gate is a dimensional portal. Marika here is likely opening the gate, hence why the wind suddenly picks up as she holds the threads
Personally, I theorize she didn't technically go through, but rather it unfolded and overlapped with her. That golden sky through the gate is the Lands Between, being separated from the Realm of Shadow, and Marika included herself and perhaps some of her allies with it-kind of like if the border between two countries moved, but the people who've lived in a little village their whole lives are suddenly in a different country because a line was drawn on a map.The shape of the Realm of Shadow neatly fits into the open spaces/seas of the Lands Between, too.
That’s a really solid idea
I feel like so many fromsoft lore channels are more concerned with the hidden lore than what the story itself tells you about a character and how it presents them to the player in a direct way. I’m glad we’ve got people covering this angle now!
Because let’s be honest, the game doesn’t ever explicitly tell you a whole lot. its always a few sentences of lore. No real explanation, because as Bret says in the video. The writers don’t bother explaining because to THEM it doesn’t matter.
It's because the dlc story was bad and they're reaching to pump out any relevant content before the algorithm gives up on their channels. The story and lore was beyond lacking and most channels have already covered everything that isn't speculation.
@@HemoclysmLmao damn that was brutal
@KingSleaze916 I wish it wasn't true I see the same from every channel. What can we get out before the masses don't care about this anymore. I love the lore don't get me wrong but I'm not gonna call something that was clearly bad good.
@@Hemoclysm what makes it clearly bad in your opinion?
All I know is.. Marika's body count seems to increase with every lore video ☠️
There's her body count and then her BODY count. This woman really gets around!
Indeed it does.
She’s for lands between smh
One of these numbers is MUCH higher than the other.
My theory is that Marika's a total lush, and every "inscrutable", mysterious, horrid, and vicious decision she made happened after she was heavily inebriated.
And Any defeats she suffered, or hardship she was forced to tolerate, just encouraged her to drink more.
Behold, the "Drunk Marika Theory".
Remembers what the hornsent did to her? Some "Celestial Dew" washes the memories down.
Godwyn, her golden boy, deciding to ally with the dragons and marry one instead of killing them all? She needed lots of "Celestial Dew" that day.
Children are born cursed? Nothing more Celestial Dew can't fix.
Golden Order lost to the Carians? imbibe the "Celestial Dew" to cope.
Godwyn killed? Well, the Elden Ring wasn't the only thing that got smashed.
Fighting the Elden Beast, before getting crucified? Takes plenty of liquid courage, I image. And By that point, Marika has hit Rock bottom.
I feel like whatever she did at the gate is meant to be ambigious. Its something so terrible that your own imagination goes wild with ideas, and revealing what happened would ruin any anticipation of it. You're meant to picture your own idea of what a sin so fowl would be that it curses her entire bloodline. So awful that anything that she does with her godhood afterwards will be stained with this original sin.
that's fair but we are just talking about the timeline, timeline isn't that ambiguous imho, it's an important part of the story. either she was a god before the DLC trailer or she wasn't, either she created the Divine gate or she didn't, if she wasn't a god yet then that leads to question how she was able to kill all those Hornsent without godly powers, unless they were killed by someone else
I believe she slept with all of them...
Until they died...
Real
@@joesaiditstrue I think that's in part where the seduction arose from. Marika didn't have to kill the hornsent to build the gate, by working people (esp high and mighty hornsent) into a religious frenzy it's possible she practically had them sacrificing themselves for it, only to ascend and reveal the real plan to finish off the rest of the hornsent after she inherited that kind of power.
@@TheCrazyrubberducky the idea of Hornsent sacrificing themselves on Marika's behalf coincides with some dialogues implying that she was a saint born out of their jars also that's where the betrayal comes too. If she was their saint I'm pretty sure they would do everything for her to become their god since Hornsent were always so "religious" about the Shaman people
Miquella: “Hey Mom, I got you this Jar-
Godwyn: “Miquella no!”
Miquella: “What’s the problem? It’s just a jar.”
Marika: (Horrifying Jar Related Flashbacks)
*"i made you this jar"
Hey Mom, I made you a sandwich. I used some jam I found in a cool jar. It tastes like mushrooms!
This is my jar! This jar was made for me!!!
Pottery day at demigod school must have been a nightmare for the Eternal household.
Jars in original game: Cute little strange creatures.
Jars in DLC: *Trauma*
I’m of the stock that marika was a successful jar saint created by the hornsent. It could explain why she was still able to live among them and was even revered; being a “perfect” amalgamation of life even though she was of shaman decent , who were targeted specifically for said ritual. It could also explain radagons red hair , since there seem to have been giants in the LOS whose flesh could’ve been used, since I found it off that radagon would be the one cursed by the giants when it was Godfrey who was leading the charge. It seem to provide a plausible reason as to how marika would even have the leverage to betray the hornsent in the first place, considering her lineage , and allow her to attain such status and influence.
In the end though it seems her intention wasn’t to become a god but to attain the power of one
I think Radagon came far after Marika ascended to godhood. He's likely the result of Marika attempting to purge the Fell curse's influence after she battled the god of the giants. She "split" herself off so she wouldn't be entirely tainted by the fell curse, but it was a flawed split, meaning Radagon had the physical characteristics of the Giants, but also held onto Marika's blind faith in the Greater Will.
@@kikrinman1450 I had thought so too but the only reason I’d be inclined to believe otherwise is the birth of messmer. As we know descendants of radagon bear his red hair which messmer plainly has. While not outright stated it’s heavily inferred , why else would his hair be the exact same color? Also we’ve seen that sacrifices must be made in order to reach the gate of divinity, miquella divulged his very flesh and being while Marika sacrificed tons of hornsent and possibly certain aspects of herself that could’ve resulted in the birth of radagon. While of course it’s all speculation , I too used to think radagon was born sometime after her ascendency , but with the introduction of messmer being marikas firstborn son (speculatively) , now I’m not so sure
but there was a god before Marika, the god of Placidusax. And there is the Fell God. So even if the Gate is Marika creation, there has always been a way for mortals to reach godhood.
That’s a good point and totally possible. Also consider, that If Marikas arc rune is a detail we can cling to for timeline analysis, then we have to take notice that her rune present in the Farum Azula representation of the Elden ring. She may have been the god of that society as well.
Always a good day when Plus Size Bret uploads
Plus size 😂
Awesome
Plus Size Brett fans when they meet Thinbrett enjoyers
I know I feel the same way
This comment made my day lol
@@tremainej4945 Alwasy
When you think about it, the furnace golems might’ve been designed to be Marika and Messmer’s “jars” for the Hornsent: A massive, animated entity powered by living beings stuffed inside it to keep it active.
"Is there anything sexual about this scene?" Plays add for Monoply Go
No joke, it was a Kalvin Klein ad for me, with a ripped half naked dude exiting the water.
Silly people, youtube doesn't have ads.
I think your reasoning that godhood is an equivalent to power and that makes the difference between them and "mortals" is spot on.
Runes perfectly encompass this. Power trickles down in the land between, showing even the most common rats (who drop runes) can grow to an unnatural size and ability.
This is further shown by your character the tarnished, a regular human guided by grace and given the strength of runes- through the Erdtree.
It's also why you aren't as strong in the lands of shadow, and have to collect Scadutree fragments to gain power in that land.
I think that considering Japanese culture and what constitutes a Japanese "kami" or god makes it even clearer. The Japanese conception of a god is not the same as our western one, a Japanese god is a powerful spiritual being and thats pretty much it. A human could even ascend to "kami" status by gaining enough power.
That was my favorite part. I honestly don't get how people don't make the connection. Maybe looking in the reeds too much. But it seemed obvious to me that the gods of whatever time were just the ones who amassed the most power first.
It works better when you know the world origin. The whole one great thing, where everything was all one thing and split off into bespoke things and forms of energy.
That would mean that the demigods are made of the same stuff as everyone else. They're just the biggest and brightest collections of stardust.
I think goldmask himself probably happened upon similar truths in his pursuits of golden order fundamentalism, which when you delve deeper into yourself, may realize that it works an awful lot like glintstone magic and that incantantions and sorceries actually aren't different things drawing on different power. He was all like "So these gods are just people with lots more of the same power that makes everything else exist, and power like that doesn't need wielders with no better wisdom or innate divinity than your average noble."
Truly, the universe of Elden Ring is ITSELF the divine thing. Everything else is just someone who came along trying to categorize it in ways that would trickle more of that divine power their way. Because of that, anyone can become a god, but never a truly perfect divine being. The power that makes gods is the power of all life and all things. It will always be bigger than any one vessel can hold. Everything and everyone that exists is just one part of the whole, and thus cannot themselves become the whole. What you get will always be incomplete. And perhaps it could be argued that bottling up that power to use to your own ends is what severs your connection to actual divinity.
14:21 i believe it's more Miquella sensing that Radahn was on the verge of breaking free, so he had to attach himself to Radahns back to keep him in control
This is what Lore videos need:
A clear hypothesis, research to back it up and an narrative spun around it that you can follow.
Congratulations: You excelled in what many lore videos only did somewhat okay.
Thank you!
I’m not entirely discounting the idea of femme fatale Marika. But the idea seems like a stretch to me. Words like “seduction” and “affair” are not strictly sexual terms (even if they’re commonly used that way). It’s more likely, in my opinion, that Marika simply gained the Hornsent’s trust and admiration, then eventually betrayed them.
Marika being called a “strumpet” could just be a baseless insult. Since we have no reason to believe that Hornsent old woman ever knew Marika directly or indirectly. Yet we know she has a lot of reasons to hate Marika for what she did to the Hornsent.
While Marika being barely clothed in the scene seems more like the writers are symbolizing Marina’s rebirth as a god. Since nakedness is sometimes associated with birth and rebirth.
I think Miquellas ritual did require a blood sacrafice as well, just that Mohg unknowingly handled it for him via his bloody fingers
miquellas ritual was killing the tarnished guided by him, hornsent talks about it at Scadu Altus "blood must spill at that god forsaken place, blood of your kind"
Miquella's sacrifice was himself.
I agree with your theory. *_Marika wanted to die._* She had learned what St Trina was desperate to prevent Miquella from finding out. That's why she conspired with her Numen assassins to merk her favorite son, she knew he would probably be the victor in the coming sibling battle and took his life as a mercy. Then she shattered the elden ring trying to sever the Greater Will's influence upon the lands between.
Marika watched as her beautiful utopia stagnated and crumbled, yet she herself was unable to change.
St. Trina knew it... godhood is a curse. To become a host, a shell, for an outer being's power and will to enact whatever order they deemed with no empathy for you or anyone else's desires. Who ever or whatever you are utterly lost to the order. Even as all crumbles and fades and tarnishes you will remain... alone.. at the the behest of your God.
With grim determination this hammer shattered the anvil.
I remain at the precipice.
Let the world go on free of Gods.
Let it heal without cruel hands.
Mercy, mercy for the poor, wizened child.
Interesting video. One minor thing that I would point out about Marika's golden bracelet is the shape. It's a spiral, a holy symbol among the Hornsent. In all likelihood, it was put there by the Hornsent, perhaps even as some sort of wedding band, denoting status or at the very least celebrated alliance.
The affair and seduction could mean that marika was seduced to summon an outer god or invite it into her bodyas a host. If you you think about Eternal Darkness, Pious had to build a tower of flesh too as a requirement to summon a specific ancient into this dimension. This also plays into the theme of power as oftentimes these outer gods are constantly trying to extend their influence over the others. Also when Marika is holding up the threads of gold in the air it is the song that is played during the eldenbeast fight.
Bro I love that you remember eternal darkness probably one of the best horror games I have ever played and remember your character ended up part of the tower I was soo haunted by that damn you brought me back with that
Worth mentioning: the Marika statues in the Land of Shadow have not just a more inviting pose but a bare leg forward and a specific emphasis on her hips that the more recent statues don’t. She’s also wearing less jewelry than the recent statues or even the story trailer. At risk of reading into it TOO much, she seems like an object of worship before she fully ascended to godhood, and a few item descriptions suggest she briefly had a cult within the tower society
The Gate of Divinity reminds me of achieving immortality through the creation of a Philosopher's Stone (from the anime, Fullmetal Alchemist).
Many have to be sacrificed to reach ultimate power.
The idea of a philosophers stone actually comes from real life mythology, Fullmetal Alchemist just adapted the idea :p
And it would neatly fit in the overarching theme of alchemy ER is based on.
Oh my god, I love the media literacy of this channel.
Marika 100% good
Hornsent 100% bad
@@Timebomb_19Nah.
@@papanurgle8393 yuh
Mediuh 🤓 liturasee 🤓👆
5:30 What you said reminded me of what Gideon said.
"WE ARE DESTINED TO STRUGGLE FOR ETERNITY."
Since he did saw a glimpse of Queen Marika's Will.
I'm a fan of the theory that Marika has some sort of relationship to The Gloam Eyed Queen, they're either dopplegangers, twins, two beings sharing the same body, something. But they are equal and opposite of each other
Gideon considers himself some sort of Expert on the back story of Marika.
Notice that after defeating his Demigods that he mentions, he gives you first a Golden Order spell followed by a Gloam Eyed Queen spell.
The DLC trailer shows the sky surrounding Marika being half dusk, half golden
It also says An affair from which gold arose (Marika), and too was shadow born (Gloam Eyed Queen)
I also believe that Melina and Messmer are twin siblings of Radagon+Gloam eyed Queen. The Abductor Virgins I believe depict Marika stealing a child. The game never outright states that Melina and Messmer are children of Marika, it's left intentionally ambiguous
@@joesaiditstrueI thought messmer was referred to as Marika’s son multiple times. When he dies he says “mother… marika…” and Melina is implied to be messmer’s younger sister. Melina also says in the base game that she was born at the foot of the erdtree.
@@joesaiditstrue Well to build on that, the mound of flesh Marika pulls the golden strands from at the gate of divinity seems awfully similar to the skin the godskin apostles wear. What if the corpse Marika pulls the strands from is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, ridding herself of her other half in much the same way Miquella discards St. Trina in his own quest for divinity? Except Marika didn't just discard her part, she actively sacrificed it in a vile ritual.
It obviously clashes with us being told Maliketh killed the GEQ though, but one could stretch it being Marika propaganda as to cover up her vile act and the identity of the GDQ, especially with how incredibly vague anything related to her is.
@@perstongravey4556 you're assuming he knows who his real mother is. Marika abducted him as an infant, as well as Melina. Messmer believes his mother is Marika. I think it's more likely that Melina actually knows her mother was the Gloam Eyed Queen, but that's pure speculation
@@joesaiditstrue Honestly, this might not be far from the truth...take miquella and st trina, marika and radagon. GRRM's fascination with human heart in conflict with itself quite personified multiple times on multiple occassions.
I find it kind of interesting that the Gate of Divinity is vulvic in form. We see Marika remove something from a mass of flesh that looks like a vulva, and ascend bloody stairs to an opening to "birth" her age into being.
Something interesting. The music during the story trailer supports the theory of marika and the elden ring, as the song playing during the part of her at the gate is the elden beast theme. Something i find interesting is how from soft tells a lot about story through the soundtrack, which makes me wonder, why is it rominas theme that plays during the display of messmers crusade? One of the shots even depicts someone on the ground with a blade that looks very similar to the one on rominas halberd. In my opinion, this clearly means romina has some great significance to all of this.
I think each of the Demigods tell the story Marika. Goddrick grafting is similar the shaman pots. Radahn seals the fate of the stars similar to sealing the rune of death. Ranni betrays the Golden Order similar to Marika betraying the hornsent. Mohg scrafices Miquella so he can become a god similar to the gate of divinity covered in blood in the DLC trailer. Malenia is similar to Maliketh.
And the tarnished is the greater will and marika, radagon, and horax lou abandoning them and also killing them off
Video Idea: Varre: A Deconstruction of Villainy
Varre doesn't have enough significance to be worth a deep dive, he'd have to be part of a Mohg analysis
@@kingdamazo7266He _did_ call us maidenless, tho…
@@goingblarghwhich is why all my playthroughs start with him a bloody paste on Limgraves grass.
He's a sentence. Varré is the perfect replication of a true believer, a fanatic. Dude is going out and spreading the word, getting others to follow Mohg. He adores and worships the blood with orgasmic delight.
Hundreds of petrified corpses can also be seen in Nokstella, one of the eternal cities. As I was running a friend through the area, I noticed these which reminded me of the gate in Enir.
Also when she is ripping golden threads out of that "thing," that to me doesn't look like a mass of flesh. It looks like something bundled up in cloth and the round bit is probably a head. So she ripped the gold hair off the head off something. Was it her child with whom she had with someone? Perhaps a hornsent?
You Just made me notice One important thing: Radagon's inside, so the elden Beast, HAS the Radagon Seal within, but NOT the rune arc that Marika creates during this ritual.
The Scarseal of both Marika and Radagon states:" These seals represent the lifelong duty of those chosen by the gods."
While She was chosen at the beginning and made this rune, He was able to create It when in the end merged with Marika
What does this mean
But he marked his rune to someone before the ER was shattered as we found it in one of Caelid's castles. So maybe he was capable to do it even before the end.
P.s: If rune rappresent people, Radagon's rune reminds the symbol of Raya Lucaria Gates, something very important for him.
What if the bodies that make up the gate of divinity aren’t Hornsent, but actually Shamans? Shaman flesh melds together so this could explain how it’s made out of bodies.
I don't know why people keep thinking the gate is made up of Hornsent. It makes more sense that it's made from Shamans.
What would be shocking, is if Marika is the one who told the Hornsent to use her people's flesh to achieve this.
You can clearly see the horns on the bodies…
@@natanelle1277 There's pictures online where it shows the gate isn't made entirely of Hornsent. There are plenty of older, hornless corpses mixed throughout the gate.
@@ultraspinalki11Midra doesn’t have horns but it’s an hornsent
It's such a small thing, but that sour-noted wind that blows through the gate of divinity, backed by those haunting vocals is just.. amazing.
When Marika shatters the Elden Ring in the opening Cinematic, the immediate next scene is of her kneeling over while her body crumbles as she is the vessel for the Elden ring.
21:18 this part made me giggle a little bit, considering Miyazaki’s interest in feet
Perfect lunch length video, let's go !
Knowing that the Hornsent made those jars out of bodies, Hornsent could have built that gate akin to that but since Marika was the only one in this shot, it must be a twisted reflection of the Shaman's torture
My theory? The reason the Hornsent were so desperate to create Saints was because the Gates of Divinity were created from a similar, if not the same process. The Hornsent were using captives of war to create a literal doorway to godhood, either having discovered the method to create the gate through immense, inhumane experimentation, or they had discovered the Gates of Divinity and the Saints were their attempts at reverse engineering the process.
I think the former theory would be more appropriate, as the Hornsent's attempt at creating a God would result in the creation of a God who was born to hate and despise them, their captive Queen Marika assembling the forces to wipe them out.
Shaman's flesh has gold in it. The mention of betrayal specifically in this scene. What's possible is that she sacrificed her own people to build it. Possibly taking some inspiration from the Hornsent Jar experiment. The only shaman's we ever see are Merika, jar people, and the Grandmother's corpse.
Great video, one of the best lore takes I've seen about Shadow of the Erdtree. These games naturally invite speculation: what happened, who exactly did what and so on. But while fun, it is important to filter important questions from less important ones. Speculating about details of biography of Marika is one thing, but determining what it meant is another. It is of great value to concentrate on these crucial themes first. What you said here puts into new perspective the rest of Marika's life.
On the side note it is kind of hilarious and From Soft-like that most of it could be inferred from the trailer alone. They are good at teasing us.
i like the idea that the sacrifice demanded of Marika was send by Metyr, essentially everything Marika did, every hornsent she killed to achieve her perfect world was pointless, it was never there, she was never going to get her perfect world, same goes for Miquella, every piece he discarded, Trina, Malenia, his promises to his people, in the end it didn’t matter, their struggles mean nothing, their all just broken things following other broken things, repeating this cycle over and over again, the flaw was already planted before any of them were born, all that came from the One Great are flawed
This is a really good observation and explination. She is the arc and this 'crucifx' pose of all her statues only paints her as a sacrificual god to those familiar with Christ. In reality, it's the very real body language of her power, the arc. It's why arc runes EMPOWER which ever othr rune we have equiped. Why did I not piece this together. She is the arc/spine and this empowers the rest of the 'ring'. Good stuff!
FatBrett mentions (regarding Marika's ascension) that we don't know what happened and CAN NOT know what happened. Which is interesting to me because it reminds me of the Golden Braid item flavor text: "What was her prayer? Her wish, her confession? There is no one left to answer."
Hey Brett! Great work! Awesome introspection and analysis as always! Love that you point out Marika's clothing and jewelry. Wanted to point out in the dlc trailer we see Marika's bracelet, it is gold sure, but it's also coiled around her wrist like a snake. Her posing as a cross? To me says she was some kind of "golden cow", an idol of worship and given what we learn of her people's fate? Likely a sacrificial lamb. I can't help but think that the gate of divinity has something to do with her jarred and sacrificed people, only for whatever ritual it was meant to be got turned on its head.
I have seen my man change the thumbnail like 3 times "A god born of Seduction" sounded pretty good
I dunno "a god -behind the- born of slaughter" sounds metal
Great ideas :) wondering if the snake-like bracelets & snake-like Godskin-esque corpse could imply Marika rose to become the consort to a God-like being who she sacrificed to make her new Rune?
I'm beginning to think that Markia's betrayal was two fold, that she betrayed her own people and the hornsent. I think she figured out the idea of melding flesh, and offered aid in experimenting on her own people to the hornsent. Then when the hornesnt perfected it, she snatched God hood from them at the last moment. It would line up with her genocide and efforts to hide all this land in shadow, as such a horrific betrayal is certainly something she would want erased from history.
I always thought it was a little strange she would hide it all just for one war. Even a genocide, in a setting like this, could probably be brushed aside as "they were all evil. We are holy they were unholy, therefore we did nothing wrong". I get that she was probably hiding the gate too, but it seems to me she did something way worse than just the crusade.
I agree
I agree with your point that she betrayed her people too, in one way or another. Think about how the jar innards were left behind in the shadow realm to rot. I always read "There was no one left to heal" with a double meaning; there is no one left, and no one would have accepted her healing.
holy shit could this also explain why black knife numen Assassins sided with Ranni to kill Godwyn...?
Would make her revenge on the Hornsent a little strange if she was complicit in the torture of her own people as well. Then again, nothing is off limits for Marika if she was feeling extra pragmatic to get what she wants.
@VictorIV0310 I'm thinking it wasn't for revenge but to silence them. They know her secret and could use it to ruin her new order. She can sweep a lot of atrocities under the rug as the greater good, but the whole sale betrayal and slaughter of her people for the sake of power would be impossible to justify.
Although now I'm wondering, if all who knew her secret (the hornsent and her own people) are dead, how did miquella learn all of this? I guess Marika could have told him, but why just tell someone after so much effort to hide it? Maybe he charmed her into telling him?
Bro, the work this man is doing is gods work. I love it so much, and as an English teacher/ major, the story telling is fantastic.
Speculation: the "seduction" and "betrayal" might indicate that the hornsent were actively trying to make Marika into a god. The jar rituals are already meant to produce saints. What if Marika played along and convinced them to do the same on a more grand scale? And what makes it a betrayal is that once they gave her the power, she turned it against them.
Not sure how the Elden ring fits with this though. We know that Elden beast is the elden ring, and that it arrived to lands between in a golden star. Did the ritual bind the Elden beast to her? Or was she already its vessel (if so, would she not already be a god?)? Or did the beast cpme only after?
I'm leaning to the ritual sealing the Elden beast in her or transforming it into the Elden ring, because
- the main game ties divinity tightly to Elden beast. You get the "god slain" message when you kill it.
- Elden stars item description says "which would later become the Elden Ring." Wo the beast was not always the Elden ring, but became it.
Oh here it is! Another fatbrett upload!
Thank the gods. This is the channel getting me through the year.
When I see the petrified corpses, I'm reminded of the stone figures in the eternal cities, especially in the dragonkin boss room.
I'd be interesting if Marika found a way to essentially industrialize her people's shamanic practice using the spirits of others as fuel for things like the ghost glovewort we find under the giant chairs.
A few people have pointed out that Miquella's godhood was founded upon bloodshed too. The way into the dlc requires you to ascend up Mohg's palace; a palace built upon blood.
Miquella divesting himself of his body is an act of purification. To cleanse himself of the evils he forced other to commit in order to claim godhood. He is much like his mother, both wanting to create their ideal world and slaughtering untold numbers of people to do so.
I can't be the only person - and I only say 'only person' because I'm yet to spot a comment saying it - that thinks the gate looks like a vagina? The womb of creation. The gateway of birth. Makes a lot of sense.
Yep I saw it too, that's what i thought Brett would mention when he talked about that part.
I see a pair of giant feet.
@@blodiaaa6990yh it would alsonexplain how corruption got to the golden order or more less that it was always there thanks to Marika
The cavity from which she takes the golden thread is cleary shaped as a vagina. More than the gate itself I think
Also, it reminds both Marika's Rune and also the Eclipse of Dark Souls 3.
Can i just say. Ive barely stumbled upon your channel and i absolutely ADORE the way you analyze media. You go so in depth and have us view the story in a way that many others would not notice or even think to notice. It feels like im getting a lessoon from a professor. I fucking love your channel!!!!!
Personal opinion, i think the seduction isnt something Marika did intentionally. I think personally, based on the whip marks on her arm, the hornsent successfully turned her into a saint. The seduction was Marikas first ascension into a saint, maybe Marika even convinced them somehow that her sainthood lent favor to the hornsent. The betrayal i would then believe is her convincing the hornsent to build the gate of divinity through bloody ritual, perhaps with a promise that they would ascend with her to godhood, fully planning on ascending and then burning the shadow realm for what the hornsent did to her people.
It’s always a pleasant and welcomed surprise to see a FatBrett upload. What a wonderful day!
Interesting video. I wouldnt compare Marika to a femme fatale archetype, for to me, the violence and chaos that erupts from her puts me more in mind of the greek tragedy of Medea. A sort of proto-woman scorned, if you will.
I will say, you mention the golden bracelet as a status symbol, but they very well could be the jewlery of a consort.
That would still imply status. A consort that wears gold is different from a poor prostitute
It hadn't really occurred to me that Marika's bracelets might imply some amount of power/wealth/influence prior to the ritual. I think an important point that supports this interpretation (rather than her still being enslaved, but adorned for the prestige of those subjugating her) is that we know from the statues that Marika continues to wear those bracelets well into her rule.
Marika went very far out of her way to eradicate things that evoke her pre-ascension trauma, enemies, etc., even if those vestiges are her own children. Only big exception I can think of is her sanitized recreation of the Saint Jar ritual, which would probably be the most distasteful to her personally were it not strongly implied to be an essential element of maintaining the crucible current from which she derives power. If those bracelets were associated with her subjugation, it doesn't seem in her character to keep them around, especially as the narrative has nothing to say about them.
I think it's still quite possible that the Hornsent were complicit in constructing the gate itself. We know that they were obsessed with communing with the crucible current and that many Hornsent aspired to divinity, though it's not obvious what their goal was. Did they simply regard such communion as manifestly good? Were they just curious? Were they trying to create their own god? We know that in some twisted way they genuinely revered the jar saints, which are basically the divine gate on a smaller scale.
It's a little ambiguous whether they actually worshipped any other gods, as it appears that they were mostly focused on the crucible current directly. It seems they might have tolerated the church of the bud, were haunted by the Fell God, regarded the Frenzied Flame with extreme caution. The body that Marika pulls the threads from still makes me think of Godskin robes, so maybe the gloam-eyed queen was there. We do know that her death rites prevented the accumulation of putrescence. Might be an intentional ambiguity that sticks with us forever.
These videos are so well-made that it takes me a little bit of time for me to watch through them. Sometimes you don’t even realize that the last video was almost 2 weeks ago😅
This could be wild speculation on my part but did we ever get the origin of the Death Bed Companions? Marika might have been something of an origin point for that taking/stealing the vitality from Hornsent to gain enough power to eventually betray them in their weakened state with the practice twisting and becoming seen as more noble by the current age.
Another amazing video
Babe, wake up, More Brett analysis
I appreciate how much care and thought you put into these videos. You have my complete attention sir. Great video, I look forward to the next.
i think the music of the gate scene tells a story in itself. as marika walks up the stairs we hear the music from her home village, and when she holds up the runes and her hair lifts up the Elden Beast music plays or at least the same music as when he comes out of radagons body. i think thats all supposed to imply we might be watching the moment she turned from mortal to god
Jesus man, you subs have SKY ROCKETED lately! and for good reason! I've been subbed since you had about 18k subs - You constantly pump out quality content, well researched, well formatted, well written, you take constructive feedback on the chin and use it to improve your future content. Well done my friend, well deserved. Keep it up.
Assuming that Marika created the Divine gate, that would mean she was already a powerful god prior to that DLC trailer who was capable of mass murdering hundreds of Hornsent, or she had a powerful army under her command as a normal Numen
Or the deception was her offering to bring the hornsent into godhood with her after coming out of a jar. She has the whip marks, and she is stated to have RETURNED home. My assumption is she became a saint through the jar method, and because of that, the hornsent saw her as a holy symbol. I would think Marika, harboring hatred for the hornsent, would command them to make the gate of divinity, offering them ascension, but in reality, plotting their demise as she ascends to godhood alone, only to return later to finish putting the hornsent to the torch.
@@joshuamagruder2241
Good point.
At the same time, where is Godfrey, or at the time, Hoarah Loux in all this? We've seen in Elden Ring that every god needs a consort, and he was the First Elden Lord. It makes sense if she seduced him and used his strength to escape or sacrifice the hornsent there. Granted, I dont think he's mentioned in the DLC, so its speculation at this point.
@@silentedict4256i think that came later
The timeline confuses me hear but obv. they didn't die from old age. So somehow she had the means already to make a gate out of them.
The Hornsent did that. But she put their bodies there. The Hornsent too believed in divinity and built the spiral to be closer to their gods.
Everytime you say "while you watch this, think about..." I get reminded of my time back in school, when the teachers would put on a video or short clip but tell you to take note of certain things in the video. Nothing wrong with it, I just feel like I'm back in a learning environment again.
If Elden Ring gets a second DLC I genuinely think it'll cover the outer gods and what godhood really means. Feels like the Elden Ring equivalent to DS3 and the Ringed City
What happened with DS3 and the ringed city?
@@sk8legendz it showed how it all began in a way. Answered one of the biggest questions remaining in the lore (the furtive pigmy and the dark soul).
@@dumbledoresnape656 Huh? Who was the furtive pygmy? I thought it was Manus. Or did they just confirm it was Manus?
@@buckyhurdle4776 could be manus. Dont think it was ever confirmed though. Meant moreso the lineage of the furtive pygmy with the circle of chairs in gael's fight. Along with the last lord clawing away from Gael in the cutscene
We won't, as said by miyazaki
Definitely one of the best lore analysis channels, love your ER and AC6 videos
What I am really confused about which I am not sure is talked about is the fact Marika still lives and is the only living one out of her entire family tree as you need to kill every single child of hers to get the elden ring/rune, but how the shattering even began was because of her son godrick dying so it baffles me that she invited all the tarnished back to literally kill the rest of her children is really confusing to me. I know in the story something about Marika tricking us that Gideon talks about but clearly he was wrong as we do become a Lord in the end and we do kill gods so Marika knew fully well someone would eventually kill all her children but that begs the question of why? As the entire start of the story is based off her child dying. I also feel like a sequel is plausible as Marika still being alive is pretty clearly intentional for the fact her entire family dies yet she still lives. (Also I am confused of why our character clearly kneels to put Marika's head on because we know fully well that Marika is the whole reason this game in general happened so I feel like there's a lot of missing pieces to why our character still clearly respects Marika.)
Marika is such a great character and you're analysis feels so spot on!
The thing is, the Tower of Babel wasn’t built because the Sumerians were arrogant. I remember reading somewhere that the Tower of Babel was built for their gods as a sort of temple for worship, rather than because they were arrogant, although the Book of Genesis says otherwise. Maybe that could factor into something or make something become clearer by looking into the Mesopotamian mythos?
Bab-ilu is the Sumerian name for Babel, which means “The Gate of God.” This is definitely worth looking into further for the lore, in my opinion, at least.
I mean, the book of Genesis actually says that they built it as a symbol of unity, then God got really scared of the idea of us working together, so created different languages to separate us.
@@quietone2674The God of the Bible isn’t scared of us working together lol. That’s gnostic headcanon.
What you’re saying doesn’t conflict actually. Man is tricked by lesser pagan spirits (gods) into extending their reach past what they are made for / able to handle.
They build the Gate of God to become like God in a promethean type gambit that causes a backfire. Since divinity is impossible for mortals a myriad of failsafes and punishments befall them for their hubris.
Thus satiating the one that tricked them in the first place. The tower of babel was always about usurpation. You can’t serve the highest good if you seek the highest power for yourself.
@@stevendouglas3781 "If they achieve this there will be no limit to what they can accomplish." Says something along those lines right before confusing our languages. And it fits with other moments too. Like in the garden where God is scared we'll eat from the tree of eternal life after gaining knowledge and being like him. It's oddly consistent that the god of the bible is threatened by the idea of us getting smart and independent.
@@quietone2674 again, you’ve cleary learned about this stuff through gnosticism. If God exists why would he be afraid of us? Afraid of what? Beating him up like Goku? Very silly.
You’re also assuming that the power the tower represented was purely good. That we should be able to do whatever we want. If humanity had a one world government things would become incredibly tyrannical.
If a father has a son with a deathly peanut allergy, he’s not abusive for smacking the jar of skippy from his hands before it’s too late.
Very good video. I like your logic and humility. Unlike some other Elden Ring UA-camrs who claim to know the truth.
5:34 While it doesn’t alter your overall point all that much, part of being “a bull in a china shop” is that the bull breaking things is *unintentional,* because it’s a big animal surrounded by fragile items. Shadow of the Erdtree is, by contrast, very much intentional.
"Akeechully" head ass
Thank you for uploading on this beautiful day 🥺🫶
I've found it weird how people latch onto the words "seduction" and "betrayal" and act like Marika is some big bad villain and the Hornsent are these poor, helpless innocemts when we know for fact that it was the exact opposite.
That's a good point, however, if the Hornsent are indeed what makes up the Gate, Marika did the exact same act that was done to her: two wrongs don't make a right. Also someone suggested that perhaps some of the Gate was also made up of Nemune, they're the race that has the mailable flesh after all. So perhaps the betrayal was to her own people
@@bubblegumnnebula Oh I completely agree, Marika went off the deep end and did some really fucked up shit. I'm just saying that people tend to forget how it started and that the Hornsent aren't blameless.
@@bubblegumnnebula Do we know that shaman flesh is truly malleable like the Hornsent say?When playing, I just assumed that was a Hornsent excuse to justify their actions. A lot of Genocides in history were inspired by made up reasons to justify their actions. The Hornsent were obsessed with divinity, and their rituals.
The way I look at it, the Hornsent saw the peaceful shamans as easy targets for their rituals, but knew that what they were doing was evil. So they made up the shaman flesh being more malleable bs, as a way to justify their actions.
@@Iamkobejames that's also a really good point and idea to explore!
Writing this now while the idea is still fresh in my head.
This is a big what if:
What if the Hornsent successfully created the Saint, and it was Marika.
Combining all the bodies in jars always seemed to result in feminine forms being primarily carrying the rest of the blob.
So what if Marika was a success, and the Hornsent listened to this Saint of theirs who then used their belief to burn them.
That’s the only thing that would make sense regarding why any of the Hornsent would trust her enough to consider what she did a betrayal.
It would also give context to why Godrick (and by extension Godefroy) would use grafting as a way of increasing their power.
Something I always assumed was that something about Marika was plant like (self fertilization) and her offspring also had plant like features (grafting).
So if the Saint was basically a bunch of people grafted together into one being, like a sort of man made crucible, then the Hornsent would happily listen to the words of this being and believe it without question until it was too late.
0/10 Not enough arrows at 26:00
While I do love learning about the physical events that happen in the lore, I also really appreciate having a look into the characters themselves. Your previous video on Marika has made her even more fascinating as a character to me, especially how her fundamental flaws became her own undoing.
On the topic of fallen civilizations, I would love to see you analyzing the story and characters of Warframe. Behind it's power fantasy, there is a very well-written but often overlooked story with equally fascinating characters. If you somehow manage to come across this comment, FatBrett, PLEASE make a series on Warframe, I would absolutely love to hear your take on it!
I made a post, not two days ago, theorizing that Marika was responsible for the Gate of Divinity construction. I speculated that she not only betrayed the Hornsent by stealing divinity for herself, but also betrayed her own people. She sacrificed her people in their entirety, to meld the bodies that comprise the Gate together. I don't believe that the Hornsent 'jarred' the Shamans into extinction, because then they wouldn't be able to make any more jars
I think you cracked it, Bret! I love this idea, that Marika is the first, most important, foundational rune of her Golden Order.
I think that she must have studied the vile jar ritual the hornsent performed on her people and found a way to turn it against them. A way to avenge them while also stealing their lives, their faith, their power for themselves.
I don't know if this will make sense but Marika reminds me of King Midas especially with how their desires came before their morality. Marika didn't seem to care what she had to do to ascend to godhood and people like Godfrey or her children were simply tools she could use to fulfill her goals which even without her knowledge, was build on a lie
And in the end she realized far to late what she became, which i why i like to imagine before she shattered the elden ring she looked into a mirrior and saw either two different things, herself as a hornsent or worst morgott and mogh bloody and beaten, staring back angry, hatred filled, scared, then the mirror shatters when she trys touching it showing what she has become/done
Miss Chalice has a really good pair of videos on this topic, splitting the matter into a video about the hornsent and a video about the shamans. She draws a link between the shamans that could manipulate flesh, the jars which were constructed using the bodies of the shamans and other organic matter, the goal of the hornsent to reach divinity through the tower of Babel like structure, and the subsequent betrayal of the hornsent by Marika and vengeful genocide, which could be seen as retribution for how the hornsent used her people as a material for their ends.
Let’s go more elden ring addiction 💪
As always, the quality of your videos are top-tier
It's so bizarre to me that the events in the trailer were never elaborated. What kind of fucked up bullshit happened there, I HAVE to know
Messmer crusade against Hornsent in Belurat and Marika's ascension
Right, I want to know in detail, even though knowing will possibly traumatize me and give me nightmares (oh hey there's a reoccurring theme here)
@@eveexeTV oh, we've got a sage here. Please tell me, what are those pile of flesh and who's seduced who and what we're the details of Marika's ascension?
I learn so much watching these. What is your background? Did you study this in school?
One thing that supports marika being a femme fatale is that in the bewitching branch, miquella LEARNED how to compel affection.
Had to learn it from someone…
Learning doesn't necessarily imply a teacher
Your approach to the story is what I believe most of Fromsoftware games are about. They only show us what is relevant to what they are trying to say, we dont need to know the full story, some points are irrelevant and are made for us to fill the gaps. One of the few creators pointing it out
I think the Divine gate was connected to the divine bridge in Leyndell (were the golem lies next to the talisman) I think its placement matches and it leads directly to Leyndell/the Erdtree. IIt is on a very high vantage point when you look down at the water and before the Shadowlands were veiled maybe it was the first place Marika set foot as a God. Maybe the Roundtable keep were built in its base to protect it after some time.
Asking the right questions is what made me subscribe
Power - in most but not all cases - is not corrupt/cursed on it's own. It's the gunman who pulls the trigger, not the gun itself.
What Marika aquired was just it, the power, the figurative "gun", that could've been used in any possible way. She chose the way, and it was revenge. That part alone doesn't make her pure evil. It doesn't even make her into any sort of villian. After aquiring godhood she simply became an instrument of retribution, avenging her tortured and murdered shaman folk. And there's nothing wrong or right about this. It's just how human nature works.
Now, what the real problem is, whatever Marika did, power was the only thing she gained. No cosmic wisdom, no greater insight on the nature and structure of the world. Just. Pure. Power.
How she used it in her rule was entirely wrong. Mind me, her ignorance doesn't justify her actions and only the ultimate sacrifice she made in the end can somehow redeem her, but doesn't it ring any bells? Fromsoft has showed us earlier, that power is not what makes a god, as a human mind with all its flaws cannot use this power in a rightful way.
And Marika is not just a human (numen/shaman/whatever, doesn't make any difference her, as her mind is still a mind of a being similar to us), she's traumatized. And everything she did, including but not limited to destroying the hornsent, removing Rune of Death, shattering the Elden Ring was dictated by her trauma, not by any kind of corruption or curse.
Beautifully said. I was thinking about this earlier, what does it take to ascend? What makes a God different from a human besides power levels? Why is someone more qualified to be a God versus another? Gods are omniscient and omnipotent beings, and with such power, a God must be devoid of human nature. Otherwise we get Gods like Marika, who use their power in violent and vengeful ways. Human nature is to seek retribution, to be selfish, to put oneself first, often times to the detriment of others. That's what makes us human, our inherent flaws.
And the other side of the discussion, is Marika at fault for wanting and becoming a God? Her intentions initially were pure, to create a better world without the despair that death brings, but the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is fundamentally true, especially in Marika's case. The Hornsent were evil in what they did to herself and her people, was eradicating them a net positive? I love these questions Elden Ring presents, I could spend hours combing through the sheer amount of philosophical questions.
@@bubblegumnnebula and here we have Miquella, who devoided himself of human nature.
Pure and radiant, he wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men.
There is nothing more terrifying.
It's not about devoiding oneself from their "past" nature. It's transcending it without losing the connection and understanding. It's where both of them failed, with Marika staying human too much (I cannot help myself, but to compare her to Gwyn), wielding power beyond human comprehension without knowledge and responsibility, and Miquella straying too far away from his human self, wielding love as a weapon of tyranny without a faintest illusion of free will.
So the fault is not in wanting to become a god, but in not realizing what it takes to be one.
As for the Hornsent being evil - it might be our perspective. Or Marika's for sure. But the truth is, they were a different culture/civilization. Whatever they did it was morally right from their perspective. As their eradication was morally right in Marika's eyes. But yet again, it's not inherently positive or negative, it's the way a new civilization takes over an old one, absorbing and adapting or destroying everything "alien" to itself. We've seen it happening numerous times in our history.
I find it hard to beleive radagon was ok with all of this.
My theory is this, the gate of divinity is an "altar" not a gate, The horn bastards were killing the shamans and mashing them together to try I get divinity, Marika took a page of that book, killed a whole lot of those bastards and made the "Gate", so much bloodsheed drew the attention of one of the ourter gods, in this case the owner of the elden beast, and that god granted power to Marika but also created Radagon as an enforcer to keep Marika in check.
So the god would eb tue god of the giants ?
@@kaosisback8376 what?
Thank you for all you do, big-and-tall section Brett!