Next Generation AC75 Wings
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- With the latest generation AC75 expected to all hit the water this month, some in a matter of days, what do we expect from the next iteration of AC75 wing design? This video with Rob Gullan and Tom Partington takes a deep dive into the features we may see in Barcelona.
0:00 - Intro
1:00 - T foil or Y foil?
6:15 - Blended Bulbs
11:30 - Foil arm fairings
16:26 - ETNZ to use legacy wings?
17:32 - When will the new boats launch
Recon video and photos credit to Recon Photographer / @America's Cup
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Your analisys on foils, wing positioning, bulbs, presures, compromises...just brilliant, enlightening ! GREAT thank you. I wasn't following for long time the technical progresses and you put me on the edge spot on. You are much more scientific than italian commentators for sure. Keep up guys.
I dont sail, i know nothing about sailing but i am loving the analysis and discussion and learning loads without full understanding of all the elements. I'm enjoying it!
Thank you
You 3 do a better job of explaining the cup than any. Of the highly paid professional analysts 👏👏👏👏
I love starting my day with a new video from Mozzy Sails! This is wondrously the nerdiest sailing channel ever.
I feel more invested/excited/informed than any previous AC thanks to this channel, keep up the great analysis.
Loving this discussion. Thanks heaps once again!
Mozzy. I talked to an alinghi Lady on the dock yesterday and asked when they were going to launch. Alinghi 13th and she thought Prado 12th. I wont divulge her job with alinghi but think she was being on the level. I am a kiwi living in Barcelona.
thank for the information, that's interesting. Busy week to come!
It's going to get busy for you lot soon! But keep the good work coming I much appreciated your videos during the last AC and am looking forward to this year's series. Thanks guys!!!
I used to photograph F1 testing at the Barcelona track and this feels the same. Its the calm before the storm. Teams thinking how positive are we that our boat performance makes us the fastest boat?
I'm thinking how much is a flight to Barcelona?
Even as a non-yachting spectator, you guys nerd out at such a high level with enthusiasm, it becomes riveting to watch
Arr sailing tech. It just another visualisation of why we love engineering, design and racing, an you guys do a great job at digging down into it. The never ending quest to find the best design of compromises to limit losses and maximise the gains. Great information guys. Keep it up. Really enjoying it, Si, Aircraft Engineer, NZ.
Thanks guys for another fascinating tec insight into these incredible boats,
I crewed a pacer at the age of 14 / 15 and won the nationals (cadets) at Pagham in our boat snufkin. sailed 470 / 505 & absolutely loved our cherub ❤, we did the chichester snow flake ❄ 🥶 in the cherub (so alot of time in the water). All pre family & commitments. Nearly 40 yrs later, Mozzy has rekindled my love for sailing.
I'm bringing my mums laser back to life with a little fibre glass & gell coat, new sail, dagger board, boom , (triggers).
I wish these foiling boat were a thing when I was young and bang into it. The cherub was pretty hairy with the big kite up in a blow.
Thanks Mozzy & co. Can't wait for your next installment.
I would love to see a discussion about the drone used in Bermuda’s America’s cup.
Great discussion! It’s getting exciting!!!
Great analysis. Always loving listening to your work
Much appreciated!
Thanks for the insights
Thanks Mozzy Sails
Thank you Mozzy and panel, looking forward to more of these discussions from you in the run up. I realise you focus mainly on technicalities but what about a video at some point reviewing the teams? For those of us that are only now tuning back into the AC world again, your views would be very interesting. Thanks and keep them coming!
Great discussion guys.
I'm really looking forward to seeing the new boats.
And I'm here! Loveley!
I am not an engineer, but I love following the details of the details. 👍
What .... no beer for this discussion ??!
gin this week, it's BST now
That is a big glass for gin ....
Where are NZ up to regarding transport? Suez? Panama Canal? Flying it over? Sailing it?😎😎
@@jonathanseal5155 they are launching in Aukland and commissioning the yacht there before moving it to Barcelona for the preliminary regatta in August. I don't know whether they will ship or fly.
@@MozzySailsthank you, Mozzy blokes👍👍🍺🍺
Brilliant extensive analysis once again but … no beer? really???
Haha I noticed the lack of speculation juice too
Was there anything more in the speculation that they might not have flaps at all on the foils and they are doing all the control with the rudder?
Thanks.
Excellent analysis and insighta as always. you touched on teams launching with old foils to hide final design. Made me wonder, how many foils can teams develop for the 75
They only have 3 new foils, all same design, so essentially two race foils and a spare
Danke!
Bitte schön!
If you need to fix a tap,ask a plumber,if you want to race a boat ,ASK A KIWI
My view of why they put those shrouds on the cant arms is less about weight distribution and more about turning radius, imagine in a turn with both cant arms are down, its like having two center boards far apart, they will not have a natural ability to turn, so the rudder has to do a huge turning effort, but if you add turning surfaces to the can’t arms you can now tune the turn radius which in turn will increase your maneuver speed in a turn and hence keep you on the foils through a turn with better likelihood . The advantage is those shrouds are only in the water during a turn when both cant arms are down. Another reason for them could also be a low speed lifting device, at low speed they are submerged and can be by angling the cant arms essentially lifting surfaces, or at least turn the cant arms into more of a lifting surface at low speed to assist with getting the boat onto the foils, basically like large flaps for the cant arms
Any ideas on asymmetrical wings (as in different inboard and outboard wing)?
I also believe that the blended foils worked fine in smooth water but don’t handle the waves as well.
Not sure if this was mentioned but moving the weight forward and the foils rearward will increase the pitch stability significantly and also make the work the rudder foil has to do far less in terms of having to control pitch. Ideally the rudder foil should at all times provide either positive or negative lift and not have to alternate between the two to control pitch. The bulbs in front of the leading edge is to bleed the pressure into the leading edge, the more you can bleed this pressure the more active foil area you will have to create lift, so in other words the junction of the canting arm to the foil will reduce lift at the junction because the pressure distribution at the junction disrupts the leading edge pressure from the bulb outwards down the span. The reason why the bulbs can now get smaller is that the foils are further back and so the bleed of pressure from the bulb no longer requires a large bulb as you have a longer distance to active the pressure bleed, the result is that the bulb can now blend back into the foil root again creating a larger effective lifting area that is unaffected by the bulb pressure.
I have been watching the recent kiwi test boats and also most of the last cup racing and practicing boats out on the Hauraki gulf. I’m no expert but I do skipper very high speed vessels that has nothing to do with the Americas cup. What I have noticed is not the outright speed which I can only just match but rather the speed at which direction can be changed… what I have seen recently is is absolutely incredible…. The g forces they must pull are right up there. The unveiling of the new vessels will be very interesting…. Think about how fast a dolphin can change direction in and out of water while maintaining stability….
www.youtube.com/@pieterbarneveld9518 Hi pete
Could Ineos use of the W foil have been a test at scale to check on how everything else changed vs. the W foil that was baseline from last cycle?
Hiya Mozzy,
I’d like to head out to Barcelona this year and watch/ see some of the Americas cup. What are my options for this? Places to see/ locate around. Ways to watch it etc, any help would be greatly appreciated.
Hugh
The NZ foil looks like a glider. Something that has to be ultra efficient in air.
Or a drone
Did u c Alinghi’s boat 1? It looks pretty awesome!! If this is a preview of what we can expect, I can’t wait. Looking forward to hear what most sail has to say👍🏼. Cheers
ua-cam.com/video/a2ifsoQolx8/v-deo.html
Great work getting the guys together! Very informative, and good to put some predictions out there.
Will be interested on your initial reviews of the hulls which I’m sure you are excited to see! Also I know you were reviewing training mileage last year; might be a good idea to do a summary video at some point to get a feel for the sailors time on water leading up to the big boats being tested.
Thanks for this. Interesting as ever. At some point can you do a bit more on the location of additional mass in the arms. You are of course correct that moving mass to the tips increases righting moment. But I think this a fairly marginal effect because of the outboard movement of mass in the foil doing the lifting. The benefit must come from the asymmetry created by the windward foil being further from the centre line than the lee foil. One of your diagrams showing this would be great as I can’t quite get how long the arms are or the angles they move through. To put it another way how far can the centre of mass of the combined foil arms be moved from the from the centre line of the boat. Apologies if this has all been covered before.
It doesn't add righting moment because the weight is in both arms so any movement outwards is further from the pivot point on one side but closer on the other which cancels out.
@@jasonpickens9839 so why put lead into the arms? I think the Lee foil must be closer to the centre line than the windward foil but I’m not sure by how much
Nuther noice vid! 😊
Still waiting on the switch one design video
ha, okay okay, I'll drop Shock a message
@@MozzySails Tell him the kid from thailand varuna was asking for it he should know who your talking about. My name is Henry
Question: why is Rob not having a beer 😂?
Don't sling off at the pomms designs. I think incorporating the sleek lines of a P76 into an AC75 is art.
Nice job, Tom. Too bad you're not wearing your customary woolly jumper!
Next time!
can't Y-foils allow to sail higher up-wind? kinda bringing a daggerboard-surface against drift?
they can sail with less leeway (or the yacht hull more yawed depending on frame of reference) by using more flap on the inboard (more vertical) half of the wing. However, less leeway (more yacht yaw) doesn't always mean an actual higher angle in reference to the wind (often it can feel like you are crabbing up to windward, but the reality is the yacht is just rotated slightly relative to its path (yaw). That all said, they would have freedom to sail more modes and whilst the optimum VMG may still be at the same course to true wind angle they may have freedom to sail either side of this optimum with less drop off in VMG. So in circumstances where you can force your opponent to sail the same mode it doesn't matter that it isn't optimum, as long as it is better than your opponent!
The inverted Y
Gonna need plenty of foils if we keep crashing into things ! View on the crash with Spain and whether we should have a non foiler single hander skippering the gbr team boat ? Seemed to be a lot blame culture on board !
I wonder if the INEOS W foil was inspired by some Mercedes tech, since it's so reminiscent of their F1 car front wing. I would hope not, since we're talking of fluids of entirely different properties.
The 3 Amigos ride again, the countdown begins and sailing is the winner. For those that don't want to call this sailing is it because of the lack of sails on these boats ?
As always a very interesting discussion. However rather surprised that the panel didn't touch on the issues of cavitation and lift vs resistance with respect to the different foil solutions that have been trialled. However I am sure they will necessarily be covered at some point. My thanks.
Imo that’s not some thing you can really analyze with visual inspection alone. You need access to technical data it’s too precise
I was waiting for skimming foils with inside downward verticals so they can start hydrodynamic and swich to surfboardstyle and keep the vertical section
You guys need to be part of a team.....
Come on, ben, get the cheque book out.
If you launched with legacy foils and then changed foils later wouldn’t it affect your training and learning how to optimise performance with your best foils?
yes, I think the legacy foils would be pretty useless for doing anything on hydrodynamic performance wise, so it would cost them in that regard. But it would mean they could get all the other systems up running and commissioned. Maybe even do some sail development before bringing in race foils. It could maybe get you a few extra weeks or month of design time of your race foils. So really a trade off between design time versus refinement and tuning.
coming from the world of displacement hull surfboards, what about a bulb that's more displaced at the bow(?), and tapered toward the stern(?/tail). opens up a world; angling the slope to the tail. ykwim?
next americas cup if still foiling will have trailing edge whale fluke shape with ribs like the mammal
I don't think that the elbow on the foil arm has much at all to do with righting moment. It is on both sides so moving the weight out means that it is further from the pivot point on the windward side but closer on the leeward side which cancels out. Your animation only showed the weight on one arm. Now the foil angles aren't identical so they don't necessarily cancel out exactly like it would for a fixed wing but it would be even more negligible than what Rob suggested. My guess is that it helps to drop the foil arms quicker. It's also possible that it helps in some way to get onto the opposite foil during a turn with how angular momentum works as the windward foil gets tucked under.
They don’t cancel each other out. The moment arm is from the leeward foil in the water not the CL of the boat. So assume they are 100kg. Multiply by the arm and you will see the leeward one is not contributing any fighting moment I.e. 0m x 100kg where as the windward one is 10m (approx) x 100kg = 1000kg.m righting moment.
@@rbcg105 your statement is correct in that if you add 100kg in each foil you have more righting moment. But it seems pointless. You get the same righting moments from 200kg dead centre, which would seems easier. However I think they must get the windward foil further from the centre line than the leeward foil. But I was hoping mozzy could show us by how much. It might be to increase the moment of inertia along the centre line to allow the controls more time to respond but I think the mast must dominate this. It could be stability with both foils down
@@tallteacher good point. There used to be a rule about self righting which meant the boats needed weight in the foils. It didn’t work anyway so dropped this time round. Equally there is a minimum foil weight and if you want to have small foils you need to put the weight in the arm rather than the wings. Or in a bulb but that’s drag. Can’t just put it in the hull. So I think we all agree the RM effect is pretty small vs having way less draggy foils
@@rbcg105 I'm not saying that weight in the foil provides no righting moment. I'm saying it makes no difference if you move it further out. If you move 100kg 1m inboard then you have 1m x 100kg + 9m x 100kg which is the same as 0m x 100kg + 10m x 100kg.
Re blended bulb
Comparison with racing piston aircraft suggests that blending is important at high CoL .mike Ronz suggests that bulb starting to reduce in crossectional area as wing leading edge starts or vice versa . This is much easier to accommodate structurally and is consistent with Biekers interceptors .
Your videos need to be longer. Stop cutting shit out. We want to see the humour and side banter. You guys are cool. Give us more please.
Thanks! Maybe we need to do some live shows during the launches?
Marginal gains matter😂
I usually find your musings quite informative but in this instance I felt I was watching three blokes talking absolute nonsense, enjoyable nonsense though. The technology being analaysed is so advanced that even those developing it are so unsure of which way to go and they are the very best boffins that money can buy, with all the data to build on. This is the purest of speculation, it can't be anything but, and the only credible things said are a reiteration of what the rules say. The way you guys make if seem like you know exactly what your talking about is fantastic and great to watch, but I do wonder if, on this occasion, a little too much wine had been consumed in advance of the record button being pressed. Needless to say it was still a great watch.
😂
Nah, INEOS's boats are the most beautiful 😂
"Two sailors talk to a pale youtuber."
Sorry man, but that's how it looks like five seconds in... ;-)
Hopefully it got better from then on 😉
@@MozzySails I love your channel. I'm subbed since surely a few years back. Thank you, keep going.
UA-camr 😂😂. We can give him some pointers when we beat him
We Love Yu mate's, where already All~Inn four A`A million kratte's of Banana's, Mango's n papaya's. (troglodyte's have aa trifecta disorder `d: ~ )_@m ~ ~
Beautiful intell'ia `Sir ❤
#AmericaMagic `😊
This format of American cup should be called foiling and not sailing, these boats and how they are operated has little to do with actual sailing…
Pretty sure though, that they are still boats, powered by sails, right?
I get it's a massive leap in form factor and physical principles compared to past rule changes. That will make these changes less popular.
Nevertheless, this is still a sporting contest, or a competition, so that will always cause innovation and change.
@@BlueMoonday19 foiling the boat using batteries to run the arms and now increasing automation of rigging…and soon we’ll have ai skip, might as well turn into foiling drone races 😂
@@cordobadebear lol yeah bit like all the driver aids in F1--- they largely got rid of those so the driver still had to drive the car. I agree is it a fine line to walk between making sure it is still a sailing competition and not a tech race, but like F1 it is part of the sport I suppose.
@@BlueMoonday19 yes, it ends up being a race of technologies and equipment and not the crews and sailing skill… I’m ok with boats getting lighter and materials getting stronger, but when handling sails and boat control are being automated… I see a race of foiling drones being operated with button pushers that happen to ride onboard the drone…
"Weight" v's "Mass"?
Why do Pommes & Yanks refer to "Mass" as "Weight"?
(Kiwis learn the difference at primary school).
Blame it all on the Brits for creating the imperial system. In the US we are mistakenly "taught" to use pounds for mass.
Because there are things called “Pound-Mass” & “Pound-Weight (actually Force)” to get people a bit confused. Works sorta ok on surface of the earth, metric system is cleaner. People could use the term “Slug” but nobody does. The slug is a derived unit of mass in a weight-based system of measures, most notably within the British Imperial measurement system and the United States customary measures system. Systems of measure either define mass and derive a force unit or define a base force and derive a mass unit " (cf. poundal, a derived unit of force in a force-based system). A slug is defined as a mass that is accelerated by 1 ft/s when a net force of one pound (Ibf) is exerted on it. Now that is clear as mud. Metric system is definitely less error prone but if you are an engineer in US, you get trained in to understand the “different” POUNDS. It is dumb but has to be dealt with, the rest of the people are along for the ride. Some time back, the US tried to go metric “inch by inch” but some genius bureaucrat changed their mind.
When will you truly implement The ISO system like the rest of the world?
@@MrVaticanRag
Seriously, probably never. Tried it once, spent a huge amount of money, then the geniuses in DC gave up. Actually who cares. You can get the same results both ways if you don’t make a mistake (which is less likely with metric system). Besides aircraft fly in feet altitude and have velocities in nautical miles per hour most places. Doesn’t effectively change anything, just requires more attention to know which dumb “customary unit” is being used.
@@Mentaculus42 only THE USA & Liberia yet to officially adopt ISO unit system .LoL