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I think those kind of odd 12/8 meter you wanted to find are used a lot in flamenco, music from Spain. It divides the meter in odd times named palos. I'm not sure, but I think one known example would be Solea from the album Sketches of Spain by Miles Davis.
Hi I would just like to ask is it possible to do a video on the 11/8 time signature. I am writing a piece that implements this for school and I find it to be a bit bland so I was wondering if you could showcase a few songs that use 11/8. Thank you :)
When I hear Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" I hear 12/8, but it's written in 4/4 with triplets. I discussed this with a friend and fellow music theory enthusiast and she reminded me that during Beethoven's time 12/8 was associated with pastoral and folk songs. In other words in his time composers wouldn't have chosen to notate a CLASSICAL piece in 12/8 even if it sounded like 12/8. Interesting, isn't it.
Interesting! It comes down to the different relationship that classical composers have to time signatures than modern songwriters… for a classical composer, the default medium in which they delivered their music was as a score, so they made quite conscious decisions about which time signature to notate in. However a modern songwriter will rarely actually commit their song to sheet music personally so they won’t necessarily have to even consider which time signature their song is in 😊
Moonlight Sonata isn't just triplets, though. It also uses the dotted 8th + 16th rhythm in the melody, which is probably why it was notated in 4/4 instead.
Beethoven's Sonata 23, "Appassionata" the first movement in F minor is in 12/8 Time. I've only ever seen the Moonlight Sonata ever written in 4/4 time. I've also got some Copeland piano works which are written in 12/8 and changes to 7/8. 🙄
From my experience, the 12/8 time signature is perfect for a workout song. A sizable amount of my workout mix uses it. The swinging/shuffle rhythm just really gets you moving at a steady pace.
This is a great point, especially because the body's natural rhythms are triplets and not duplets. I was reminded of this regularly by one of my instructors when I studied percussion in college.
Also its quite good for running. When i play 4/4 songs while running, its sort of funny but i tend to naturally step harder on the foot thats on the strong beat. With 12/8, 6/8, etc your foot on the strong beat switches each time bc of the triplets, so you run more evenly
All the songs in the latest Disney film "Encanto" are in 4/4, except for "Waiting on a miracle", which is in 12/8, to reflect that Mirabel is literally at a different rhythm than the rest of the family.
Τhank you Carlos. This is the best song for nine and ten y. old musicians (like mine) to practice compound times! We' ve learned about coumpound times recently, and I'm now looking for catchy songs to practice their theory.
Lin-Manuel Miranda said, that it's 3/4 This fact is what made me (never studied music theory) try to learn about the beats, thanks to David for the videos!
Everybody Wants To Rule The World is weird. I recreated the song, and some parts are looped in 4/4 and some are looped in 12/8, the Snare and kick is in 12/8 while the HiHat is 4/4. The bass is also a mix of 12/8 and 4/4. If that makes any sense. And for use of drum machines they are pretty complicated.
@@thisisachannel.9727 You'd probably do better if the song wasn't pitched up higher the standard 440 Hz. I try too lol, its not easy. But then again I'm also a terrible singer.
"City of Tears" from Hollow Knight by Christopher Larkin uses a harp that plays every beat in the 12/8 time signature. It is really cool because as the harp goes in the background, the melody only emphasizes the four main beats which makes it sound fast and slow at once. Fun to play on piano too!
Love how you brought up the 4/4 triplets thing! This year in choir we had to sing a song where a section in 4/4 had those same kinds of triplets played over a straight 4/4 melody - it was really frustrating to read and nobody could understand how it was supposed to sound. It was only once I actually listened to the song with a 12/8 feel that I actually got how it was supposed to sound
I don‘t play, but from watching drummer‘s videos on UA-cam I‘ve learned that the Rosanna shuffle is a rite of passage. If you‘ve mastered it, you‘ve made it out of the beginner level, you‘re now a real deal.
8:42 There's a genre of music that uses that pattern a lot; flamenco, a genre of music and dance of Spain. There are different styles of flamenco (known in Spanish as "palos") and there's one named "bulerías" whose rhythmic pattern consists in two groups of three and three groups of two (it's in 12/8). But that's not the only "palo" that uses that pattern, also the "soleá", the "bulería por soleá", the "alegrías", etc, whose time signatures are 12/8 too. The pattern is like this: 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 But it has a detail: the accent isn't in the first pulse of each group of three and two, but at the end of each other, like this: 1 2*3* 1 2*3* 1*2* 1*2* 1*2*
12/8 is such a versatile time signature as it lends itself to so many possibilities. Playing poly-rhythmic patterns or multi-meter stuff is especially great in 12/8. THis is a great video with insightful information. Thank you for sharing.
The song "Schism" by Tool is a pretty good example of the irregular 12/8 rhythm you came up imo. It even juxtaposes it against the regular 12/8 rhythm!
This is the best example of "odd" 12/8 that I can think of, since how often is 12 divided into 5 and 7? It also serves as a great way to show how 12/8 and 4/4 can pass back and forth, since it often is easier to think of the breakdown in 4/4 and then go back to 12/8 when it goes back into the verse.
Never been a music student. I would just sometimes see people in the comments of songs discussing the time signature they were in and I got curious. I have to say that you really helped me understand this, so thanks. It's pretty difficult to learn when you have no prior knowledge in this subject, and after a LOT of videos, this has helped me the most.
@@hatujemeletsplayeryheskyce6460 Yeah, I should have mentioned Stevie Wonder's "Higher Ground", which I think is an even better example than the video's "Master Blaster" mention.
Run Away With Me by Carly Rae Jepsen. What’s amazing to me is despite the fact that this song is solidly in 12/8 it doesn’t feel like a shuffle or a swing at all
I came here to say this! It doesn't really feel like a shuffle or swing because the vocals in a lot of sections are really strongly subdivided into eighth note triplets, I think. Really great 12/8 song.
Carry On by Fun. is one of my favorite songs, and also a good example of using polyrhythms in 12/8. Its main piano riff switches from dividing the bar into 6 pairs of 2 eight notes, and 4 trios of 3 eight notes. It gives the song a lot of rhythmic interest, especially when contrasted with the drums, which remain steady and constantly divide the bar into 4 strong beats, even when the other instruments don't. Edit: It's also where I first saw the trend of transcribing songs that could be in 12/8 as 4/4 with triplets, like what you mentioned in the video :)
In the song Distan Early Warning by Rush, the little bridge section that's played many times throughout the song is made up by four bars of 7/8 and two bars of 12/8. The 12/8 is divided into 3+2+3+2+2. This is the only example I can think of 12/8 used without the triplet feel. Great video thanks!
Oh wow David, been here since day one. The persistent quality of your videos is honestly intimidating in the best way. Also I've never known 12/8 existed so this'll be interesting :)
Hey man I just wanted to say that you've recently become one of my favourite UA-cam channels, by far my favourite music channel. The work you do is incredibly thorough and captivating. Keep it up man!
I listen to most of your videos while I am working. I have learned a TON and it is amazing how digestible you make complex concepts. Sadly, I have been shit about hitting Like on each video, but love them all, and slowly working my way back through and liking them :).
I'm pretty sure "3's and 7's" by Queens of the Stone Age switches from 4/4 to 12/8 when it goes into the bridge. I think it's a really interesting effect and can't believe I never noticed it in Bohemian Rhapsody
i found your song on the second channel first, and was trying to figure out the grouping. Thanks for this! I'm a big fan of different meters, swing/shuffle feel, and odd groupings; probably comes from listening to a lot of Genesis and Dave Brubeck, and from that jazz chart of Pictures at an Exhibition we had in high school. One movement was in 11/8 (3-3-3-2), and it had this lilting feel. I wonder if the choice of 6/8 vs 12/8 could also be influenced by the tempo or the length at which the backing instrumentation repeats.
As very much a lay-person who enjoys playing at musicianship I was listening to schism by tool ages ago and thought "6/8?" Afriend was playing it on the bass one day and he says it was 6/4 so thought "okeedokee, chunks of 6 in either case" and figured he used the sheet music. A couple years later a different friend was like 'no way, dude.' (not an exact quote, lol) We looked it up and it said alternating 5/4 and 7/4 (and other pedantic stuff coz it's tool, of course they did it that way). Later I looked up a video of a bass player playing while the sheet music scrolled past and I realized that I was tapping out the rhythm half as fast, my groups of 6 were equivalent to the transcribed groups of 12 which had been subdivided into the alternating 5 and 7. What i had thought were quarter notes were actually half notes. Ratios, man. Math sure is something.
I was just gonna mention Schism! I break it down even further in my head when I hear that song: 2-3-2-2-3. Of course 5 and 7 is probably the more logical way to do it, but honestly I've always seen odd time signatures as being some combination of 3 and 2 beat groupings. Because unless the strong beats occur every single beat or only once per bar, they'll almost always land on some 2nd or 3rd beat. 7/4 is just 3-2-2 or 2-2-3, or 2-3-2.
@@marcusrange5509 the groups of 2s and 3s does kinda ring true for me too now that i think of it! Before I knew that time signatures like 7/4 existed I heard Solsbury Hill by peter Gabriel as alternating 3s and 4s. And with tool songs, the way I get to their time signatures is with sets of 3 until I get to an extra 2. Doesn't always work especially with heavily syncopated things. but at that point i get back to being a kid in the halls of a musical building for which I'll likely never see the blue prints for. And that's fine 😊
@@kariemE Truthfully time signatures are confusing hahaha. A lot of it comes down to convention, or what the transcriber thinks is the most sensible way to write it. Lots of it is up to interpretation. There are some hard and fast rules in music theory, but in my experience time signatures are not among them. The top number tells you how many beats are in a bar and that's about where the strict rules end. how you divide or group those beats is largely down to interpretation. Some people would write Tool's "Schism" in 12/8, since there are 12 pulses between repeating phrases (especially if listening to the bass line), some write it as alternating bars of 5 beats and 7 beats (either 5/4-7/4 OR 5/8-7/8, essentially the same either way). David Bennett himself cited Tool's "Schism" in a previous video on the 6/4 time signature if I recall correctly, which is another way of conceptualizing the song that's technically correct. Different people hear musical phrases differently. That's art for you!
oh my god I was literally just writing a song in 12/8 today when I wondered if you'd done a video on the time signature I could use to better understand how it works. thank you so much for posting this at the perfect time!
Thanks for the good explanation! I've found a few pop and rock songs in recent years that I love so much because of the rolling feel of the rhythm and I couldn't figure out until I tried to establish the time signature. When I wasn't sure if I was counting right, your video confirmed it. My brain just really loves 3/4, 6/8, and 12/8 rhythms for some reason, with 12/8 taking the cake!
This is one of the greatest blues rhythms I think? When you listen to early Fleetwood Mac for example, you can hear those triplets over 4 beats. I had to check if "Need Your Love So Bad" was 12/8 and indeed it is. I always loved that rhythm.
it’s interesting also to discuss the use of “half note triplets“ or what we in african and Afro-Cuban study sometimes call “the big three“ and all the way up to 24/16 learning to navigate from that base point and through all the permutations of three against four and placing the accents in all the possible locations is essential for mastering African based rhythms.
“Is It Over” - Jon Batiste He actually plays out each eighth note individually during the first ‘and she said….’ section. Im learning this and it literally makes me sway. Totally makes sense. This video was awesome.
The verses before the break in Iron Maiden's Rime Of The Ancient Mariner are in 12/8 with the same 6:4 polyrhythm as Everybody Wants To Rule The World (though the bass drum is just playing dotted quarter notes rather than the shuffled extra hit).
I'm surprised no one's mentioned "My Generation" by "The Who" yet. I've seen its rockscore transcribed in 12/8. It's also a good example of duplets in 12/8 because the bass solo includes both duplets and triplets.
MG doesn't feel to me to be in swing time or shuffle. The lyrics and general melody are straight 4. The triplets the bass does can be called out as such in the score, imho.
I was worried that we wouldn't get a Beatles reference based on the video thumbnail. Luckily that was sorted out at 5:34. Now it finally feels like a proper David Bennett video 😊
3:04 I've always wondered about this: thank you! Another delightful video... excellence is routine on here, but we know that the effort required is not "routine". We appreciate these videos!
Your "odd grouping" of 12/8 sounded a great deal like the intro to Smooth Operator by Sade (but I don't the details of Smooth Operator so I don't know if it was an example you were seeking
Most pure flamenco is in a 12 count as well. 2 groups of 3 and 3 groups of 2. West side story "I love to live in America" is a great example of the accents in flamenco Bulerias etc...it starts on 12: 12, ¹,²,3 ,⁴,⁵,6,⁷,8,⁹,10,¹¹.
Back in 2019, I jammed for the very first time with some friends. I was on the drums. I had this shuffling, rolling 4/4 beat, swinging away, and it was funky. A few weeks ago, i tried to notate it, and it wasn't working at all. It wasn't translating correctly. After watching this video, I now realise that I was playing a 12/8 pattern without even realising it! Thanks so much David for putting me onto how 12/8 can sometimes be mistaken for 4/4. You're a legend and you've helped my song writing process. Peace from Australia!
I never realised the similarity of the bass line between "Everybody wants to rule the world" and Michael Jacksons "The way you make me feel". Thank you for that.
Another opportunity to mention the „When I hold you in my arms…“ section in „Happiness Is a Warm Gun“, where the song shifts to 12/8, but Ringo keeps on drumming in 4/4.
@@catsofsherman1316 Thats nonsense. Not even Purdie himself claims to play on all songs but only on 21 of them. Most likely he had an appearance on some of the very early tracks where he replaced Pete Best and later confused it (which is not so surprising given his huge back catalogue). I recommend this video: ua-cam.com/video/hz9EGGiOuso/v-deo.html
In Grateful Dead's Anthology songbook, "Truckin' " is the only song called out in 12/8. "Sugaree" would easily qualify, but they put it in 4/4, called it out as "with a 12/8 feeling, and used triplets through the whole score. Other songs, such as "He's Gone," are placed in 4s, but called out in swing time with the "2 eighths = a quarter and an eighth triplet" up top. Of particular amusement to me was what they did with Estimated Prophet, which I'd assumed was in 7/8. It's actually something of a shuffle, but rather than put it in 21/8, they used the swing time notation and placed the song in alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4!
I find the best way to decide if it's 12/8 or 4/4 with a swing or shuffle is whether any notes fall on the second of the three quavers in the beat. if nothing lands there, or very few notes, it's probably best notated as 4/4 swung, but if it's frequently using all three or the second quaver, best to use 12/8
Thank you. This is something that always confused . When something was written as 4/4 with triplets. I knew it wasn't 4/4 and that something else was going on
"What A Wonderful World" by Louis Armstrong is counted in 4/4 time, but with a shuffled rhythm. Also, a much older example would be Lacrimosa, which was first done at the funeral of its composer, Mozart.
Mariah Carey’s “Vision of Love” is another example of a song in 12/8; it’s a mid tempo ballad with a bluesy style and chord progression to it. Her debut single and first #1 hit too!
I think of No One Knows by Queens Of The Stone Age as being in 12/8 at a very fast tempo, although it seems more like 4/4 with triplets because it's fast and the rhythm in the verses mainly only accents the 4 beats
You mentioned one Steely Dan song, but by far my favorite 12/8 Purdy/ half time shuffle of all time is "Babylon Sisters". That groove is so deep in the pocket it's madness.
I believe Christine McVie wrote “Don’t Stop” in 12/8 but is one of those songs that could also be 4/4. I’d also consider “Ordinary Day” by Vanessa Carlton and “Minute By Minute” by the Doobie Brothers to be 12/8
In The Cage by Genesis starts out in a typical 12/8 shuffle, but then has a more interesting take on the 12/8 rhythm, more like 4 bars of 3/4 with a 1 2+ 3 count
Its really a pity that David does not listen to Genesis. Their music is so rich on tricky time signatures and other cool stuff. David, if you read this comment: Genesis were the Radiohead of the 70s! Dive into it and you will love it!
When I first heard Mater Blaster in 1980, I thought of it as a nod to Reggae, which had been popularized by Bob Marley in the late 70s. Thus the fewer number of eight notes emphasized.
I absolutely loved Bernard Purdie. AJA by Steely Dan ( he only played on 2 of 7 songs on the album) is a great example, which you used with Home At Last. You used so many good examples, I was wondering how long it would take you to slid in a Beatles song. The answer is 05:34 I love your video's. keep up the great work David.
The first song that came to my mind while listening to that last 12/8 odd meter pattern was “Devil inside” by INXS, but I can’t really tell if it’s the same pattern.
Perfect timing - I am just doing a song/mix using quotes from The Warhol's America doco and have always wondered about the way those shuffles were achieved in most of the songs you featured - so 12/8 it is for my song and/or the 4 and 6 idea you showed towards the end may get a look in.
A lot of Spanish music uses 12/8, mainly corridos. Speaking of, could you make a video going over Spanish sounding music? ‘Spanish’ scales and chords and explain the theory behind what gives it a Spanish feel to it
12/8, 6/8, 3/4, they're all the same. The only difference in notating them comes about when you consider the length of the of the phrase. I really like what you did creating the 12/8 odd time signature near the end. Very creative
Head to nordvpn.com/davidbennett to get a 2-year plan plus 1 additional month with a huge discount, and you'll get a 30 day money-back guarantee 😊
Watch the full version of the outro piece over on the 2nd channel: ua-cam.com/video/iTQ5Um0-JOo/v-deo.html 🎹
I think those kind of odd 12/8 meter you wanted to find are used a lot in flamenco, music from Spain. It divides the meter in odd times named palos. I'm not sure, but I think one known example would be Solea from the album Sketches of Spain by Miles Davis.
Hi I would just like to ask is it possible to do a video on the 11/8 time signature. I am writing a piece that implements this for school and I find it to be a bit bland so I was wondering if you could showcase a few songs that use 11/8. Thank you :)
@@coolbro7627 Right in two, by Tool.
@@coolbro7627 11/8 has been on my radar for a while so I’ll keep it in mind 😀 thanks!
Thanks for this. I would like to know the practical difference between 6/8 vs 12/8
When I hear Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" I hear 12/8, but it's written in 4/4 with triplets. I discussed this with a friend and fellow music theory enthusiast and she reminded me that during Beethoven's time 12/8 was associated with pastoral and folk songs. In other words in his time composers wouldn't have chosen to notate a CLASSICAL piece in 12/8 even if it sounded like 12/8. Interesting, isn't it.
Interesting! It comes down to the different relationship that classical composers have to time signatures than modern songwriters… for a classical composer, the default medium in which they delivered their music was as a score, so they made quite conscious decisions about which time signature to notate in. However a modern songwriter will rarely actually commit their song to sheet music personally so they won’t necessarily have to even consider which time signature their song is in 😊
Moonlight Sonata isn't just triplets, though. It also uses the dotted 8th + 16th rhythm in the melody, which is probably why it was notated in 4/4 instead.
I saw the video where some guy told that Beethoven wrote Moonlight Sonata in 2/2, not 4/4.
@@MaggaraMarine oh yeah, on the melody part, nice
Beethoven's Sonata 23, "Appassionata" the first movement in F minor is in 12/8 Time.
I've only ever seen the Moonlight Sonata ever written in 4/4 time.
I've also got some Copeland piano works which are written in 12/8 and changes to 7/8. 🙄
From my experience, the 12/8 time signature is perfect for a workout song. A sizable amount of my workout mix uses it. The swinging/shuffle rhythm just really gets you moving at a steady pace.
That’s a good point!
This is a great point, especially because the body's natural rhythms are triplets and not duplets. I was reminded of this regularly by one of my instructors when I studied percussion in college.
Got any suggestions or a play list?
Also its quite good for running. When i play 4/4 songs while running, its sort of funny but i tend to naturally step harder on the foot thats on the strong beat. With 12/8, 6/8, etc your foot on the strong beat switches each time bc of the triplets, so you run more evenly
It really gets a groove going
All the songs in the latest Disney film "Encanto" are in 4/4, except for "Waiting on a miracle", which is in 12/8, to reflect that Mirabel is literally at a different rhythm than the rest of the family.
Interesting!
Τhank you Carlos. This is the best song for nine and ten y. old musicians (like mine) to practice compound times! We' ve learned about coumpound times recently, and I'm now looking for catchy songs to practice their theory.
I think it's actually in 3/4 But it's quite fast and is in 4 bar phrases
@@abicrumpets5266 you’re correct. To me, though, it sounds more like 6/8
Lin-Manuel Miranda said, that it's 3/4
This fact is what made me (never studied music theory) try to learn about the beats, thanks to David for the videos!
Two years ago I mixed "Everybody Wants To Rule The World" with "You've Got A Friend In Me" and now I understand why it worked.
Did you post it? I'd like to see that
Everybody Wants To Rule The World is weird. I recreated the song, and some parts are looped in 4/4 and some are looped in 12/8, the Snare and kick is in 12/8 while the HiHat is 4/4. The bass is also a mix of 12/8 and 4/4. If that makes any sense. And for use of drum machines they are pretty complicated.
@@elevatormaniacgames yeah that explains why songs instrumental sounds kinda odd.
I remember I had to sing the song. I did not go well loL.
@@thisisachannel.9727 You'd probably do better if the song wasn't pitched up higher the standard 440 Hz. I try too lol, its not easy. But then again I'm also a terrible singer.
"City of Tears" from Hollow Knight by Christopher Larkin uses a harp that plays every beat in the 12/8 time signature. It is really cool because as the harp goes in the background, the melody only emphasizes the four main beats which makes it sound fast and slow at once. Fun to play on piano too!
Wait until you hear nightmare king grimm’s theme
I love Hollow Knight's OST!
And yeah it is pretty fun to play :]
One of my favourite instances of 12/8 is the second half of Muse's Knights of Cydonia. I love the rollicking energy when the drums kick in.
YYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS
kickass song
I love it
I love how 12/8 sounds insanely exotic but its really just 4/4 in triplets
thats the power of triplets for ya
and it is
opeth uses a lot of 12/8 with exotic scales on their prog albuns
I always use Fleetwood Mac’s “Hypnotized” when I demonstrate 12/8 to my classes…no mistaking that feel there!
one of the best fleetwood mac songs
Love how you brought up the 4/4 triplets thing! This year in choir we had to sing a song where a section in 4/4 had those same kinds of triplets played over a straight 4/4 melody - it was really frustrating to read and nobody could understand how it was supposed to sound. It was only once I actually listened to the song with a 12/8 feel that I actually got how it was supposed to sound
SO GLAD you brought up Purdie. I look forward to teaching every one of my drum students the shuffle once they're up to that level.
Purdie is a legend!
starting drum lessons soon and i can’t wait until i can play it
I'm not a drummer, but I'm gonna learn it anyway; I've heard it all over the place, it would be cool to play it.
I don‘t play, but from watching drummer‘s videos on UA-cam I‘ve learned that the Rosanna shuffle is a rite of passage. If you‘ve mastered it, you‘ve made it out of the beginner level, you‘re now a real deal.
Anyone that can do the Purdie shuffle can jam with me anyway. That man is an absolute legend
8:42
There's a genre of music that uses that pattern a lot; flamenco, a genre of music and dance of Spain. There are different styles of flamenco (known in Spanish as "palos") and there's one named "bulerías" whose rhythmic pattern consists in two groups of three and three groups of two (it's in 12/8). But that's not the only "palo" that uses that pattern, also the "soleá", the "bulería por soleá", the "alegrías", etc, whose time signatures are 12/8 too.
The pattern is like this:
1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 1 2
But it has a detail: the accent isn't in the first pulse of each group of three and two, but at the end of each other, like this:
1 2*3* 1 2*3* 1*2* 1*2* 1*2*
i’d guess it could described as a odd grouping but is say it’s more of a dual meter thing 6/8 the 3/4 a huapango
12/8 is such a versatile time signature as it lends itself to so many possibilities. Playing poly-rhythmic patterns or multi-meter stuff is especially great in 12/8. THis is a great video with insightful information. Thank you for sharing.
The song "Schism" by Tool is a pretty good example of the irregular 12/8 rhythm you came up imo. It even juxtaposes it against the regular 12/8 rhythm!
This is the best example of "odd" 12/8 that I can think of, since how often is 12 divided into 5 and 7? It also serves as a great way to show how 12/8 and 4/4 can pass back and forth, since it often is easier to think of the breakdown in 4/4 and then go back to 12/8 when it goes back into the verse.
So Did We by ISIS does a similar thing, but the 5 and 7 are in reverse order, if that makes sense. So the subdivision is 2+2+3+2+3
"Thunder" by Passenger does so too. It's a 3+2+3+2+2. Took me a while it figure it out back when I listened to it.
When it comes to Tool and 12/8 I always think of Pushit. That's definitely got the more traditional 12/8 feel as opposed to the wildness of Schism.
A simple polyrythm
“Home at Last” and “Fool in the Rain” were the two songs that I thought of first. Well done, as usual. Thanks!
Never been a music student. I would just sometimes see people in the comments of songs discussing the time signature they were in and I got curious. I have to say that you really helped me understand this, so thanks. It's pretty difficult to learn when you have no prior knowledge in this subject, and after a LOT of videos, this has helped me the most.
Most of the intro section to Yes's "Close to the Edge" is in a pretty overt 12/8. Other sections modulate that into more of a 6/4 grouping.
Of course, but he never puts these as an example since they aren't mainstream songs
@@hatujemeletsplayeryheskyce6460 Yeah, I should have mentioned Stevie Wonder's "Higher Ground", which I think is an even better example than the video's "Master Blaster" mention.
Close to the edge is an astounding album. Still a classic after 50 years.
Huh. I always hear that as 6/8.
ua-cam.com/video/OAoy4FjSUzE/v-deo.html
Run Away With Me by Carly Rae Jepsen. What’s amazing to me is despite the fact that this song is solidly in 12/8 it doesn’t feel like a shuffle or a swing at all
its only really when i listen to the synth bass that i notice it!
I came here to say this! It doesn't really feel like a shuffle or swing because the vocals in a lot of sections are really strongly subdivided into eighth note triplets, I think. Really great 12/8 song.
Carry On by Fun. is one of my favorite songs, and also a good example of using polyrhythms in 12/8. Its main piano riff switches from dividing the bar into 6 pairs of 2 eight notes, and 4 trios of 3 eight notes. It gives the song a lot of rhythmic interest, especially when contrasted with the drums, which remain steady and constantly divide the bar into 4 strong beats, even when the other instruments don't.
Edit: It's also where I first saw the trend of transcribing songs that could be in 12/8 as 4/4 with triplets, like what you mentioned in the video :)
In the song Distan Early Warning by Rush, the little bridge section that's played many times throughout the song is made up by four bars of 7/8 and two bars of 12/8. The 12/8 is divided into 3+2+3+2+2. This is the only example I can think of 12/8 used without the triplet feel. Great video thanks!
12/8 has always been one of my favourite time signatures. I just love that shuffle vibe. Thanks for this video
Paul Simon's "Crazy Love Volume II' is an example.
IIYC, the classical "Walk" by Pantera is in 12/8. The main riff really digs this time signature
For whom the bell tolls is also in 12/8
Oh wow David, been here since day one. The persistent quality of your videos is honestly intimidating in the best way. Also I've never known 12/8 existed so this'll be interesting :)
Thank you! 😀
Your composition at the end was the best part of the video. Stunning chord progression ✌️
Thanks!
Really great stuff - make a song out of it!
Hey man I just wanted to say that you've recently become one of my favourite UA-cam channels, by far my favourite music channel. The work you do is incredibly thorough and captivating. Keep it up man!
I listen to most of your videos while I am working. I have learned a TON and it is amazing how digestible you make complex concepts. Sadly, I have been shit about hitting Like on each video, but love them all, and slowly working my way back through and liking them :).
Thank you! I’m really glad that you find them useful 😃
Love these videos of yours using popular and contemporary examples.
Best way to learn theory by far.
Thanks! 😊😊
No matter how you learn, examples bring it to life. But for many people, examples are the entrance door.
@@AndrewBlucher
Yes examples make you go “Oh that’s what I’m hearing and enjoying.”
I'm pretty sure "3's and 7's" by Queens of the Stone Age switches from 4/4 to 12/8 when it goes into the bridge. I think it's a really interesting effect and can't believe I never noticed it in Bohemian Rhapsody
i found your song on the second channel first, and was trying to figure out the grouping. Thanks for this! I'm a big fan of different meters, swing/shuffle feel, and odd groupings; probably comes from listening to a lot of Genesis and Dave Brubeck, and from that jazz chart of Pictures at an Exhibition we had in high school. One movement was in 11/8 (3-3-3-2), and it had this lilting feel. I wonder if the choice of 6/8 vs 12/8 could also be influenced by the tempo or the length at which the backing instrumentation repeats.
Here is an instrumental piece of music in 11/8. It is a very sad tune, but I hope you like it.
ua-cam.com/video/biJReZ6cxkU/v-deo.html
Every song is in 4/4 if we all stop being nerds about it
lol. Well…🤷♂️
@@rtholman83 I agree, RT. I guess ya can’t fix stupid…🤷🏻♂️
I agree.
Very helpful lesson, David! Thanks for including all the variations of 12/8 timing as well. You are a wonderful teacher! 👍😊
Your outro piece was incredibly soothing. 🤍
Thank you!
As very much a lay-person who enjoys playing at musicianship I was listening to schism by tool ages ago and thought "6/8?" Afriend was playing it on the bass one day and he says it was 6/4 so thought "okeedokee, chunks of 6 in either case" and figured he used the sheet music. A couple years later a different friend was like 'no way, dude.' (not an exact quote, lol) We looked it up and it said alternating 5/4 and 7/4 (and other pedantic stuff coz it's tool, of course they did it that way). Later I looked up a video of a bass player playing while the sheet music scrolled past and I realized that I was tapping out the rhythm half as fast, my groups of 6 were equivalent to the transcribed groups of 12 which had been subdivided into the alternating 5 and 7. What i had thought were quarter notes were actually half notes. Ratios, man. Math sure is something.
I was just gonna mention Schism! I break it down even further in my head when I hear that song: 2-3-2-2-3. Of course 5 and 7 is probably the more logical way to do it, but honestly I've always seen odd time signatures as being some combination of 3 and 2 beat groupings. Because unless the strong beats occur every single beat or only once per bar, they'll almost always land on some 2nd or 3rd beat. 7/4 is just 3-2-2 or 2-2-3, or 2-3-2.
@@marcusrange5509 the groups of 2s and 3s does kinda ring true for me too now that i think of it! Before I knew that time signatures like 7/4 existed I heard Solsbury Hill by peter Gabriel as alternating 3s and 4s. And with tool songs, the way I get to their time signatures is with sets of 3 until I get to an extra 2. Doesn't always work especially with heavily syncopated things. but at that point i get back to being a kid in the halls of a musical building for which I'll likely never see the blue prints for. And that's fine 😊
I'm 100% confused now 🤔
@@kariemE lol, I'm confused most of the time too. Thankfully there's folks like David Bennett who can do-the-knowing-about-it stuff for us!
@@kariemE Truthfully time signatures are confusing hahaha. A lot of it comes down to convention, or what the transcriber thinks is the most sensible way to write it. Lots of it is up to interpretation. There are some hard and fast rules in music theory, but in my experience time signatures are not among them. The top number tells you how many beats are in a bar and that's about where the strict rules end. how you divide or group those beats is largely down to interpretation. Some people would write Tool's "Schism" in 12/8, since there are 12 pulses between repeating phrases (especially if listening to the bass line), some write it as alternating bars of 5 beats and 7 beats (either 5/4-7/4 OR 5/8-7/8, essentially the same either way). David Bennett himself cited Tool's "Schism" in a previous video on the 6/4 time signature if I recall correctly, which is another way of conceptualizing the song that's technically correct. Different people hear musical phrases differently. That's art for you!
oh my god I was literally just writing a song in 12/8 today when I wondered if you'd done a video on the time signature I could use to better understand how it works. thank you so much for posting this at the perfect time!
Thanks for the good explanation! I've found a few pop and rock songs in recent years that I love so much because of the rolling feel of the rhythm and I couldn't figure out until I tried to establish the time signature. When I wasn't sure if I was counting right, your video confirmed it. My brain just really loves 3/4, 6/8, and 12/8 rhythms for some reason, with 12/8 taking the cake!
This is one of the greatest blues rhythms I think? When you listen to early Fleetwood Mac for example, you can hear those triplets over 4 beats. I had to check if "Need Your Love So Bad" was 12/8 and indeed it is. I always loved that rhythm.
thanks man your channel has really helped a lot of music theory click for me all the sudden. after a long time trying to understand this stuff.
it’s interesting also to discuss the use of “half note triplets“ or what we in african and Afro-Cuban study sometimes call “the big three“ and all the way up to 24/16 learning to navigate from that base point and through all the permutations of three against four and placing the accents in all the possible locations is essential for mastering African based rhythms.
“Is It Over” - Jon Batiste
He actually plays out each eighth note individually during the first ‘and she said….’ section. Im learning this and it literally makes me sway. Totally makes sense. This video was awesome.
The verses before the break in Iron Maiden's Rime Of The Ancient Mariner are in 12/8 with the same 6:4 polyrhythm as Everybody Wants To Rule The World (though the bass drum is just playing dotted quarter notes rather than the shuffled extra hit).
@davidbennettpiano your composition at the end is PERFECT telephone hold music!!!
I never noticed that some of these songs were in this complex signature. Thanks for making me open my musical mind.
The Purdie Shuffle! Now closer to figuring out why the beat for Death Cab for Cutie's "Grapevine Fires" is so good! Thanks for the video!
I'm surprised no one's mentioned "My Generation" by "The Who" yet. I've seen its rockscore transcribed in 12/8. It's also a good example of duplets in 12/8 because the bass solo includes both duplets and triplets.
MG doesn't feel to me to be in swing time or shuffle. The lyrics and general melody are straight 4. The triplets the bass does can be called out as such in the score, imho.
I was worried that we wouldn't get a Beatles reference based on the video thumbnail. Luckily that was sorted out at 5:34. Now it finally feels like a proper David Bennett video 😊
I love how you show music theory
Thank you!
This quality is amazing, thank you for all the work and time you spend on these for us to learn.
3:04 I've always wondered about this: thank you! Another delightful video... excellence is routine on here, but we know that the effort required is not "routine". We appreciate these videos!
Thank you Michael!
Your "odd grouping" of 12/8 sounded a great deal like the intro to Smooth Operator by Sade (but I don't the details of Smooth Operator so I don't know if it was an example you were seeking
Most pure flamenco is in a 12 count as well. 2 groups of 3 and 3 groups of 2. West side story "I love to live in America" is a great example of the accents in flamenco Bulerias etc...it starts on 12: 12, ¹,²,3 ,⁴,⁵,6,⁷,8,⁹,10,¹¹.
Back in 2019, I jammed for the very first time with some friends. I was on the drums. I had this shuffling, rolling 4/4 beat, swinging away, and it was funky. A few weeks ago, i tried to notate it, and it wasn't working at all. It wasn't translating correctly. After watching this video, I now realise that I was playing a 12/8 pattern without even realising it! Thanks so much David for putting me onto how 12/8 can sometimes be mistaken for 4/4. You're a legend and you've helped my song writing process. Peace from Australia!
My favourite variation of the Purdie shuffle is in Grapevine Fires by Death Cab For Cutie
Steve Gadd also borrowed that feel, and did it on "Chuck-E's in Love" and a bunch of Al Jarreau tunes.
Was just about to mention this lmao. Phenomenal song.
@@davidphipps9331 Agreed!
Nice man. Funnily enough, to my ears, your closing song sounds like bring in 3/4 to my ears… music is a beautiful thing!
Pentangle's "Night flight" can be seen as 12/8 - grouped as 5,5,2. Or one can say that each line is two bars of 5/4 and one of 2/4.
This is a great video, just like 12/8, which is a great time signature
Thank you! 12/8 is probably my favourite time signature!
8:47 Schism by Tool uses an agrupation of 5/8 + 7/8 as the main riff (counting as 12/8)
I consider that song to be in 6/4. However, ultimately non-compound 12/8 basically is 6/4 😀
Another great video David! Keep ‘em coming!! 🙌🏻
Thanks! 😀😀
When I think about 12/8, I automaticly think of Hold The Line, by Toto.
Great example!
Toto LOVES 12/8. Their first album seems to be purposefully trying to impress with lots of different rhythms.
@@TheGerkuman They really do. Hold The Line, obviously Rosanna as mentioned in the video, and even Africa feels like 12/8 to me.
And they use an odd grouping of 3-3-2-4-
Fascinating video David. Loved it! Another song that uses 12/8 time is the Moody Blues Classic "Nights In White Satin."
Great video David, your videos inspired me to dive into music theory more. Glad that i discoverd your channel last year
Excellent! Thank you
Great video - and great original piece at the end of it! You rock David!
Thanks Joe! 😀😀
I never realised the similarity of the bass line between "Everybody wants to rule the world" and Michael Jacksons "The way you make me feel". Thank you for that.
Blue Rondo A La Turk (arr. by Kris Berg) has the song go from a 9/8 beginning to a 12/8 solo section, then go back to the 9/8
Another opportunity to mention the „When I hold you in my arms…“ section in „Happiness Is a Warm Gun“, where the song shifts to 12/8, but Ringo keeps on drumming in 4/4.
Bernard Purdie played on all the Beatles songs which explains the characteristic shuffle of all their songs.
@@catsofsherman1316 He played bass on over half of them, too.
@@catsofsherman1316 Thats nonsense. Not even Purdie himself claims to play on all songs but only on 21 of them. Most likely he had an appearance on some of the very early tracks where he replaced Pete Best and later confused it (which is not so surprising given his huge back catalogue). I recommend this video: ua-cam.com/video/hz9EGGiOuso/v-deo.html
@@catsofsherman1316 The Beatles weren't a real band, it was just Bernard Purdie moving very fast.
@@catsofsherman1316 i hope that's a joke
In Grateful Dead's Anthology songbook, "Truckin' " is the only song called out in 12/8. "Sugaree" would easily qualify, but they put it in 4/4, called it out as "with a 12/8 feeling, and used triplets through the whole score. Other songs, such as "He's Gone," are placed in 4s, but called out in swing time with the "2 eighths = a quarter and an eighth triplet" up top.
Of particular amusement to me was what they did with Estimated Prophet, which I'd assumed was in 7/8. It's actually something of a shuffle, but rather than put it in 21/8, they used the swing time notation and placed the song in alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4!
1:43 I haven't even listened to the regular 4/4 version, but as soon as you said that, i was like "Oh fuck this is going to sound so cursed"
This was an AWESOME!!
And you play beautifully!!👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾✨️
I find the best way to decide if it's 12/8 or 4/4 with a swing or shuffle is whether any notes fall on the second of the three quavers in the beat. if nothing lands there, or very few notes, it's probably best notated as 4/4 swung, but if it's frequently using all three or the second quaver, best to use 12/8
Thanks for this follow-up, David.
Thank you. This is something that always confused . When something was written as 4/4 with triplets. I knew it wasn't 4/4 and that something else was going on
I’m glad it helped 😀
Love that song you came up with at the end! Great video as always
I came here to say this too. That song really captured me.
"What A Wonderful World" by Louis Armstrong is counted in 4/4 time, but with a shuffled rhythm. Also, a much older example would be Lacrimosa, which was first done at the funeral of its composer, Mozart.
A lot of Gospel and traditional Soul/RnB use 12/8, especially the slow jams. A lot of 12/8 American music invokes a blues shuffle feel
Mariah Carey’s “Vision of Love” is another example of a song in 12/8; it’s a mid tempo ballad with a bluesy style and chord progression to it. Her debut single and first #1 hit too!
The song you wrote for the irregular rhythm is gorgeous.
Thanks!
I think of No One Knows by Queens Of The Stone Age as being in 12/8 at a very fast tempo, although it seems more like 4/4 with triplets because it's fast and the rhythm in the verses mainly only accents the 4 beats
Yeah, it might be more of a 4/4 with swung notes, but I definitely see where you’re coming from
You mentioned one Steely Dan song, but by far my favorite 12/8 Purdy/ half time shuffle of all time is "Babylon Sisters". That groove is so deep in the pocket it's madness.
I believe Christine McVie wrote “Don’t Stop” in 12/8 but is one of those songs that could also be 4/4. I’d also consider “Ordinary Day” by Vanessa Carlton and “Minute By Minute” by the Doobie Brothers to be 12/8
Great examples 😀😀
@@DavidBennettPiano thanks David, your videos are great as always! I always look forward to them 😊
Your videos are always so informative, thank you again, David.
Thanks Peter!
As I recall, Memory (from Cats) uses 12/8 for at least some of it, though it changes time signature a few times.
Your musical knowledge is gold for me.
The 12/8 meter always makes me think of old Doo-Wop songs from the 1950s, such as "In the Still of the Night."
The solo section of Rush's "Freewill" is a great example of 12/8
In The Cage by Genesis starts out in a typical 12/8 shuffle, but then has a more interesting take on the 12/8 rhythm, more like 4 bars of 3/4 with a 1 2+ 3 count
Its really a pity that David does not listen to Genesis. Their music is so rich on tricky time signatures and other cool stuff.
David, if you read this comment: Genesis were the Radiohead of the 70s! Dive into it and you will love it!
Just got Stills Young Band album from 1976-- with "12/8 Blues" on it. Your tutorial was very interesting as we researched 12/8.
The bridge between verses in Good Morning, Good Morning by The Beatles has always been fairly interesting to me x)
Good example! I actually analysed that song in this video: ua-cam.com/video/gBCPoiaqLjI/v-deo.html 😊
When I first heard Mater Blaster in 1980, I thought of it as a nod to Reggae, which had been popularized by Bob Marley in the late 70s. Thus the fewer number of eight notes emphasized.
Your part sounds Radiohead-ish, i like it
Thanks! 😀
Loved your example. Very pleasant.
yeah, most of these songs I can only hear 4/4
the details that makes a 12/8 are too subtle
With quarter notes yes, but when it comes to eighth notes that’s where all the difference lies
Means you got no swing, baby
I absolutely loved Bernard Purdie. AJA by Steely Dan ( he only played on 2 of 7 songs on the album) is a great example, which you used with Home At Last.
You used so many good examples, I was wondering how long it would take you to slid in a Beatles song. The answer is 05:34
I love your video's. keep up the great work David.
The first song that came to my mind while listening to that last 12/8 odd meter pattern was “Devil inside” by INXS, but I can’t really tell if it’s the same pattern.
Perfect timing - I am just doing a song/mix using quotes from The Warhol's America doco and have always wondered about the way those shuffles were achieved in most of the songs you featured - so 12/8 it is for my song and/or the 4 and 6 idea you showed towards the end may get a look in.
watched this video in 2x speed for 24/8 explination
A lot of Spanish music uses 12/8, mainly corridos.
Speaking of, could you make a video going over Spanish sounding music? ‘Spanish’ scales and chords and explain the theory behind what gives it a Spanish feel to it
just noticed how similar Bury a Friend and People Are Strange by the Doors sound! Possible influence perhaps?
I actually made a video about that before: ua-cam.com/video/t4ITk0yrISc/v-deo.html 😀
This is your best video. Love this rhythm and your music at the end - would love to put some words to it
We've been studying Back to Black by Amy Winehouse in my piano workshop which is in 12/8
I’d never noticed that before! Good example 😀
12/8, 6/8, 3/4, they're all the same. The only difference in notating them comes about when you consider the length of the of the phrase. I really like what you did creating the 12/8 odd time signature near the end. Very creative
Immediately I thought of Lost in Yesterday when I saw the title of the video!
I love that song 😀