I think I saw something in Early Music Sources that suggests, maybe, the classical 9/8 view might take strong influence from very early music, and mensural notation. What we think of as 9/8, in mensural notation, becomes perfectum maior (circle with a dot in the middle). Imperfectum maior would be 6/8 to us (semi-circle with a dot in the middle). I wonder how much of this influence carried forward to how we teach music today, rather than a more modern thinking espoused here, where we may subdivide in whatever way we choose to generate the rhythms we seek in our compositions, and not get too hung up on the time signature used to convey this meaning.
As Adam Neely put in his video, most people are taught music as the specific style of 18th century Europe, and not as anything relevant for the modern composer. Music education truly needs change right now
Not only that, but in classical music, this kind of "mixed meters" (2+2+2+3 or whatever) simply weren't a thing until the 20th century. Before 1900, all 9/8 classical pieces were 3+3+3, which is why that's how it's traditionally taught. So, in classical circles, 9/8 pretty much always means 3+3+3. The problem arises when classically trained musicians try to explain the concept to people whose main interests aren't in classical music. These classical musicians aren't familiar with pop/folk songs that would use 9/8 in another way, so of course their first explanation is going to be "compound triple meter". That's the 9/8 they are familiar with. Similarly, the "4/4 with an added 8th note" explanation is useless to most classical musicians, because most of the time, that's not how 9/8 is felt in classical, and it's actually going to be counterproductive to try to feel a classical 9/8 piece in that way. A good musician (no matter whether they have a classical, jazz or pop background) will understand that in different styles people do different things, and they won't say something like "9/8 is always compound triple", even if that's the first example of the time signature they are going to give. The problem is, a lot of people who talk about this stuff online aren't really properly educated (or don't have enough understanding of the different context in which you are going to see this time signature). They have heard somewhere that 9/8 is 3+3+3, so they take that as an "objective rule" and don't even consider any other possibilities. A theory book usually has a genre focus, so if a theory book that focuses on classical says that 9/8 is 3+3+3, then that's really not incorrect - this does apply to basically all classical music. You just shouldn't generalize this "rule" to all music - you need to understand the context of the book. Similarly, if a counterpoint book says "avoid parallel fifths", you should understand the context in which that is said, and not try to apply that rule to all music.
I'm from the Balkans and 9/8 is so engraved into our culture that people with no musical background, almost completely tonedeaf, can follow the rhythm without any problem, dance, and sing along to them. Always found it odd (no pun intended).
i have a funny story abt 9/8. first of all im Greek and most of our traditional music is in odd time, usually 7/8 or 9/8. So Im in this band and our instructor had a gig where they played such songs and they had trouble figure out a part in 9/8 i think. thay had been talking abt it and of the guys goes: dont worry if you fall out of the beat just follow the audience's clapping. he did indeed fall out of the beat but because the audience was clapping the 3+2+2+2 pattern (without them even knowing) he jumped right back in. idk if it is just me that finds it fascinating😂
That is really funny, normally you'd expect the audience's clapping mistakes to muck things up and not the other way around. Hope that guy put in some practice after that though, pretty embarrassing to get called to play simple odd meter patterns like that and be so lost that the crowd has to bail you out haha. At least it sounds like everyone was having fun though, in the end that's all that matters right?
Every culture usually has a link to a very unique pre-modern music that the kids are just born into it. I assume people around the Mediterranean can clap in 9/8 and they don't even know. Indians in their own, black Americans have gospel and blues etc
Great explanation of 9/8 (and related) timing. You're right, your explanation is much clearer than the more traditional tutorials I've watched. Thanks!
You should do a video sometime on how to make 4/4 NOT sound like 4/4. Similar to how you explained there's a lot of ways you can write in 9/8 instead of three groups of three, there's also ways to "prog up" 4/4 :)
simply using odd subdivisions triplets quintuplets septuplets can give that feel switch them in and out and it can sound crazy and all over by just learning to count different subdivisions
I just wanted to point out that 9/8 is very common in Greek, Turkish and probably more eastern music traditions (and thus not especially confusing to our ears). For example the fast karsilama rythm which is counted as 12 12 12 123. And of course the zeibekiko dance which is a very slow 9, nearly feels like a 4+5.
Thanks Jake! This is the first time I've ever heard someone describe 9/8 in a useful and practical manner. Harpsichord music was commonly written in 9/8, but never really explained very well. The funny thing is, when counted as triplets it's a standard waltz beat or rhythm. Not very modern, but quite practical.
It's one of those your-timing-was-perfect situations for me. I have literally just finished a demo mix of a song I've made using only 9/8. Haven't watched the video yet, but now I'm looking forward to the insights you will provide. They may prove very useful to me! Thanks, anyway! You are great!
Thank you so much for this video man. I've been writing in 9 for a while and it's just really nice to have someone really flesh it out and contextualize how 9 works.
This is a very good explanation. All I would add is that if a person is counting above 6, it's generally useful to count 7 as 'sev' to keep to 1-sylable counting.
I feel like a lot of people here in comments who say "I'm feeling 9/8 as 3+3+3" or "I'm feeling 9/8 as 2+2+2+3" are missing the point. 9/8 shouldn't be felt in one way. The way you should feel 9/8 depends on the context. In older classical music, it's basically always 3+3+3 (and this is where the idea of 9/8 being a compound triple meter comes from - old theory books describe it in this way, because they focus on classical music, where this is the way 9/8 is felt, at least the vast majority of time). In more modern music, there are more options (either 3 groups of 3, or some combination of 3 groups of 2 and one group of 3).
TBH I would count nearly all of these as konnakol but I didn't want to open up that can of worms yet. One day I'll do a video on konnakol syllables and how/why I use them
@@samuelconnolly347 😆 yeah, i think the worst part was when it actually clicked, because I had been drilling it so much at that point, that everything I heard (people talking, random noise, literally everything) became a konnakol phrase to my brain, and it actually started to interfere with day to day life. It was hilarious, and really bad at the same time.
@@Necrocidal oh noooooo... I’m sorry man, that’s one hairy rabbit hole to get caught up in. Not sure if you know who Matthias Ecklund is, but he has a pretty good basic explanation. ua-cam.com/video/wlY7rp9xm0I/v-deo.html
This was really cool and inspirational. Thanks for another fantastic video. You’re a gifted teacher and really have a knack for simple explanations. Keep up the great work!
The song "jambi" by tool is actually a really good example of the difference grouping can make. The drums on the intro play the pseudo 4/4 you mention (1 and 2 and 3 and 4 trip let) and then in the verse the kick drum goes to more the compound feel (1 trip let 2 trip let 3 trip let)
Great video as always. When I write in less common time signatures, I like to write the subdivision as a text next to my music, so it's clear and I really watch my beaming as it can get pretty dense. Love those time signatures, because you can fluently shift between different subdivisions and play with listeners perspective. Suddenly you can shift from disjointed, herky jerky rythm to really fluent and groovy steady puls
Thank you for this resource. I enjoy your pragmatic approach to teaching. Once again we can restate the age-old argument: "the creation should always lead the theory, not the theory (and theorists) leading the creation".
I literally can't think of the song in my head as 9/8 which is what is quite funny to me...I always truncate it down to 7/8 because the frenzied rhythm makes me feel like the song wants to hurry along...but 9/8 is slightly delayed from 4/4 so it throws me off and I remember it as a 2 + 2 + 3 pattern
I very much agree with what your saying (at around 12:30). I never had any formal musical training, I learned a lot a long the way from sheet music and books on theory (much later...). When I started playing guitar, I got myself a drum computer (Boss Dr. Rhythm). A measure was divided into 16th notes (for 4/4). You could change the length of a measure to create 7/8 or combine different lengths to create 9/8 or 5/4. Or you could switch to triplets. This made the measures really visualize. Later I started working with tab programs, first Tabledit and for quite a while Guitar Pro. But in my head, the way I used to program drums on my trusted Dr. Rhythm works through in how I think about rhythms, and particularly drums. When I got more into theory of (odd) time signatures I started to perceive measures as combinations of 2's and 3's (I think I got this idea from how time signatures were perceived in Hungarian dances, but it's a more common thought). So 4/4 can be 4 groupings of 2, or 3+3+2. And so on. This way you can combine most time signatures and it makes much more sense. So perceiving 9/8 only as 3x3 is incorrect and unnecessary limiting. I think it's a typical western (classical?) thought to have things neatly even divided. But life isn't always neatly divided. And still people have a hard time with uneven 9/8 times. Take for example Sting's I Hung My Head which is in 9/8 (5+4) which is also performed by Johnny Cash (American IV) and Bruce Stringsteen (live only as far as I know), but both straightened it out to 4/4 (in Cash version the guitar strums a 3+3+2 rhythm, in Springsteen version a straight 8th note pattern with no syncopation).
Terrific video and your explanation was flawless. Years ago I played a snare drum in a pipes and drums band in Montreal, we had several tunes that had a 9/8 time signature and I always found them very fun to play and had an ineffable quality that was quite stirring. Thank you for a great views video!
I got your notification after so long Jake❤️, hope you are doing well :) your videos transformed my guitar playing from a clueless beginner to a confident intermediate over a past 1.5 years
Another great vid as always Jake. I really like these ones on rhythm and time signatures. Would love to see one on some tips to make smooth transitions between different time signatures.
And it's so dramatic and big sounding too, who knew you could make a progression that's essentially just major chords sound so ominous and menacing! Really sells the end of the world vibe going on there
Great video Jake. 9/8 is definitely one of the strangest and most interesting time signatures out there. Try listening songs by Halid Beslic. He's a folk singer from Bosnia and Herzegovina, quite popular in the Balkans. His songs "Necu necu dijamante" and "Budi budi uvek srecna" are great examples of 9/8 used in folk music, and definitely are worth listening to. Also, "Nocas mi se s tobom spava" by late folk singer from Serbia, Saban Saulic, is also a great 9/8 folk song. Cheers
It was a great approach to provide visibility and understanding about the elements and variations regarding to the concepts. Thanks for another nice lesson , Jake !
I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain. 6/8 and 9/8 are well established as shorthand for 3+3/8 and 3+3+3/8. When you'd rather write in another specific meter like 2+2+2+3/8 or 3+4+2/8 you can just write that (using a narrow font if that helps). When you'd rather write in a meter that changes from measure to measure but always adds up to 9, you could make a note that your 9/8 signifies this, or, better yet, make up a modified symbol (like 9ᵐ/8 or something) instead of just 9/8. If other composers like it they'll adopt it and it'll end up as the standard notation for a freely changing meter that adds up to a count. (9/8 is already standard notation for one specific meter that adds up to 9.)
I love your videos for the way you portray the info. Let me say with your voice, I'm surprised you aren't a DJ (do they exist anymore?) Keep it up, we use your videos! I was in bands in the early to late 90's. I discovered how to make beats sound interesting as my bassist really understood how to add funk to music to make it more "hooky". Ever since then I knew I had to learn how to do this. Well, I didn't. But now that I homeschool, I'm picking it up again and we use your videos a lot. Big thanks, you're really great at explaining it, and you bringing joy into the lives of those who are learning this. Of course, I smashed that "like" button on every one of your videos we watch. Stay safe and happy.
Excellent video ! You can check how Wagner is using 9/8 in the overture of Tannhauser. It starts in 3/4, and the accompaniement is progressively shifting to 9/8 , but keeping the main theme in 3/4. I think in this case, one could interpret that being triplet in 3/4, but it's easier to read as an 9/8 bar.
I've already watched this video about 4 times. I always get so excited when Jake uploads a video, ESPECIALLY when it applies directly to stuff I am searching for, but without success! Perfect timing yet again, my friend. The only way it'd be better is if it was even sooner! ;D
In prescriptive rules (dogma) vs descriptive rules, descriptive always wins. In an art form as subjective as music, it's hard to understand why anyone would place any hard limits or rules on what you can do - The only limit is your imagination to create things!
The song Miracles Out of Nowhere by Kansas also makes really great use of 9/8 right at the beginning. It alternates between 4/4 and 9/8, and they even bring in 7/8 at some points. It’s a really interesting song to analyze when it comes to time signatures, in my opinion.
I think it was a good idea to show a general creative approach to 9/8 before a steady compound triple meter feel. it starts the viewer off with the creativity mindset. really well made video!
5:50, this sounds like a Jazz version of Dream Theater 7:02: there we go :D Also, "traditional" depends on region, in Asia/eastern-Europe the traditional/folklore is 2+2+2+3, whilest in the west is 3+3+3 (which is the obvious time beat that Waltz) Thanks for a nice and thorough vid, learned quite a few things even if knew some others :)
"one-two-three-four-one-two-three-four-five-ONE" (grooves goes on) -> that sounded really cool and spooky, you should make a track using exclusively a drum track and your voice counting out beats as monotonously as possible while still stopping some times. Will have some nice creepy "numbers station" vibe.
10:17 9/8 is basically 3/4 with Triplets on each beat. Likewise 18/16 (it's in the 26th Variation in Bach's Goldberg Variations) is basically 3/4 with Sextuplets on each beat. The difference lies within how they're written, but other than that it's all the same
I see it as weights on a grid of accents projected. A player can purposefully slip some of these accents and deftly move between rhythms. If you're into counting and secrets in music, check out the music of Jaki Liebezeit!
Thanks patreons, for supporting Jake help those of us who are not in the financial position to do so and cannot afford music lessons. I really do appreciate all of you guys!❤👍 And Thank you Jake this lesson did help clear the confusion I've had since 'learning' music theory in school, actually all of your lessons do. ✌🙂👍❤🇦🇺
It’s fun to go back and forth between the duple and compound meter feels in 9/8. It’s a really simple way to get the feeling of a metric modulation. I also agree that the best way to view these type of meters is to figure out all the different subdivisions you can use and go from there. There’s no right or wrong approach!
I think that it is just easier to use 2/2, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, etc. instead of 6/8, 9/8/12/8, 15/8 except maybe in jazz swung rhythm because the quarter+8th, or 8th+16th is easier than the amorphous extend the first note of the two 8ths beamed in most scores. Pop music has few 9/8 songs, and if you are improvising, it is so much easier to integrate other songs in simple time if the drummer is just changing his 4/4 tempo. You could use only 4/4 and 3/4 time considering that phrases can begin and end anywhere in a bar except in some forms of classical music where it was dictated by the genre.
This may already have been mentioned, but I think that when you let the ride play even quarter notes over two bars (and the riff also takes to bars to repeat) then we could just call it 9/4. But again, what matters isn't what is "formally correct" but what makes it understandable.
Yep, I could say that the cymbal is playing in 9/4, but I'm really just exploring the options of 9/8 beyond a single measure of it. The rest of my band is clearly thinking about 2 measures of 9/8, and thats how I'd write it. But it's fun to play 9/4 on top as demonstrated!
@@SignalsMusicStudio Either way, I think that the trick of letting a ride or hi-hat play play "straight" over two bars so that it falls on the offbeat half the time is a really neat trick and helps tie things together. I think the first time I heard and reflected on this was in Sting's "I Hung My Head". Great song, btw.
As a Middle Eastern Belly dance performer/instructor, I love and understand the Karsilama. It is so much fun to explore, counting it in sets of maybe 3, 3 3 or 4, 2,2,1 and so forth. You can play it, dance it in any way shape or form.
Interesting. I wrote a heavy rock song recently with the main riff in 9/8 with accents on the one, four, five and 8. Then switching to 4/4 in the chorus and back to 9/8 again. I love the result. Cheers
I think the first way you describe is a much more natural way to think about time, particularly for guitarists. Piano is a very percussive instrument, and I think the traditional view is somewhat more amenable to percussive technique -- you care a lot more about strong/weak relationships when thinking about percussion than when playing lead. I tend to think of all time as 'strings of eighth notes grouped in some way' -- counting the groupings directly (e.g., 1-2-3-4 1-2 1-2-3 as opposed to counting 1-& or whole-beat counting or anything). Doing this makes the rhythm I intend much more clear with appropriate beaming, and lets me have a much free-er -- but still locked in -- feeling to my time.
Voices is such a good example, especially if you listen to the drums. Portnoy plays 9/4 on one of his cymbals which makes the placement of the "hit" shift between bars. Pretty cool stuff.
The 2 songs in 9/8 that comes to my mind and I have listened to are "Voices" Dream Theater (The Mirror Album), and Supper´s Ready Genesis (Apocalypse in 9/8).
It's funny cause that song specifically is always played with so much rubato that's very hard for me to hear any metric structure without looking at the sheet music
In Greece our traditional music (mostly dances) is filled with 9/8 and usually they count 2+2+2+3. They play, dance and sing on that time signature and it definitely sounds nothing like prog rock, which is a testament to how that time signature can be used and offer completely different feels.
Just a though... if you are making the last "half quarter note" (like in 5:50) extend to the next bar, wouldn't it be more appropriate to write it as a 18/8 time signature?
@@Wind-nj5xz The 9/8 version shows that my steady beat occurs at 90 BPM and is written as a dotted quarter note. The 3/4 version ALSO shows that my steady beat is 90 BPM but those are now quarter notes.
About the counting - I personally would count the 3x3/8 as "one-two-three, two-two-three, three-two-three", just as I count regular 6/8 as "one-two-three, two-two-three" :)
Honestly, the "traditional method" makes more sense to me. I came here looking for a way to count a 9/8 time signature for a piece that I'm writing (which I realized is naturally 9/8) and the fact that a compound meter breaks the 8th notes up into 3 sections of 3 beats makes so much more sense to me than anything. Also, just thought that I would point out that 16th notes are counted as "1-E-and-a".
16th notes would be counted as “1-&-a” in a three-note grouping of 8th note and two 16th notes, which is what he was referring to. He doesn’t like using 1-&-a for a long beat 9/8 beat because to him, that means 8th + two 16th. I agree with you in the sense that I think learning the traditional version first makes more sense. That’s the starting point; then you move to the other variations.
Great video. Try saying "SEV" instead of SEVEN when counting fast, it's WAAAAY better when you have to include seven. SEV. I started and never looked back. I could a lot of 7/8 as 1 3 5 Sev, 1 3 5 Sev, and it's so much easier.
King Gizzard uses 9/8 quite a lot. One of their recent songs 'Interior People' is in 9/4, and another one 'Catching Smoke' goes 3 bars of 4/4 and 1 bar of 9/8
Tengo 45 años y soy baterísta "a oído" desde los 13 y "todo" lo que sé, es por aprender de memoria los temas de mis bandas favoritas. Además, mi dominio del Inglés es aún más básico que mi conocimiento de la Teoría Musical. Sin embargo, NUNCA ME HABÍA QUEDADO TAN CLARO el funcionamiento de los 9/8.👏👏👏👏👏👏. Gracias MAESTRO por entregar su saber a quienes desean aprender a pesar de la distancia y de las fronteras de un idioma cualquiera que éste sea..🙏. Saludos desde Chile🇨🇱..
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I think I saw something in Early Music Sources that suggests, maybe, the classical 9/8 view might take strong influence from very early music, and mensural notation. What we think of as 9/8, in mensural notation, becomes perfectum maior (circle with a dot in the middle). Imperfectum maior would be 6/8 to us (semi-circle with a dot in the middle). I wonder how much of this influence carried forward to how we teach music today, rather than a more modern thinking espoused here, where we may subdivide in whatever way we choose to generate the rhythms we seek in our compositions, and not get too hung up on the time signature used to convey this meaning.
Yes thats correct
Not gonna lie, at first I read that as menstrual notation and thought "dang, early musicians really made music according to a woman's cycle, TIL."
@@stuffandsundry Times were *really* different then. - grin -
As Adam Neely put in his video, most people are taught music as the specific style of 18th century Europe, and not as anything relevant for the modern composer. Music education truly needs change right now
Not only that, but in classical music, this kind of "mixed meters" (2+2+2+3 or whatever) simply weren't a thing until the 20th century. Before 1900, all 9/8 classical pieces were 3+3+3, which is why that's how it's traditionally taught. So, in classical circles, 9/8 pretty much always means 3+3+3.
The problem arises when classically trained musicians try to explain the concept to people whose main interests aren't in classical music. These classical musicians aren't familiar with pop/folk songs that would use 9/8 in another way, so of course their first explanation is going to be "compound triple meter". That's the 9/8 they are familiar with.
Similarly, the "4/4 with an added 8th note" explanation is useless to most classical musicians, because most of the time, that's not how 9/8 is felt in classical, and it's actually going to be counterproductive to try to feel a classical 9/8 piece in that way.
A good musician (no matter whether they have a classical, jazz or pop background) will understand that in different styles people do different things, and they won't say something like "9/8 is always compound triple", even if that's the first example of the time signature they are going to give. The problem is, a lot of people who talk about this stuff online aren't really properly educated (or don't have enough understanding of the different context in which you are going to see this time signature). They have heard somewhere that 9/8 is 3+3+3, so they take that as an "objective rule" and don't even consider any other possibilities.
A theory book usually has a genre focus, so if a theory book that focuses on classical says that 9/8 is 3+3+3, then that's really not incorrect - this does apply to basically all classical music. You just shouldn't generalize this "rule" to all music - you need to understand the context of the book. Similarly, if a counterpoint book says "avoid parallel fifths", you should understand the context in which that is said, and not try to apply that rule to all music.
I'm from the Balkans and 9/8 is so engraved into our culture that people with no musical background, almost completely tonedeaf, can follow the rhythm without any problem, dance, and sing along to them. Always found it odd (no pun intended).
I second this from Turkey. 9/8 sounds like wedding to me.
thats really interesting. i heard that indian music uses 7/8 a lot which is hard to imagine.
I third this from Greece. 9/8, 7/8, 5/8 is common in Balkan music
@@pankats1222 We called it Zeimbekiko if anyone wants to listen to what it sounds like
I love the balkan 11/8ths as well! Like in Lidijina Igra. So many fun rythms!
i have a funny story abt 9/8. first of all im Greek and most of our traditional music is in odd time, usually 7/8 or 9/8. So Im in this band and our instructor had a gig where they played such songs and they had trouble figure out a part in 9/8 i think. thay had been talking abt it and of the guys goes: dont worry if you fall out of the beat just follow the audience's clapping. he did indeed fall out of the beat but because the audience was clapping the 3+2+2+2 pattern (without them even knowing) he jumped right back in. idk if it is just me that finds it fascinating😂
That is really funny, normally you'd expect the audience's clapping mistakes to muck things up and not the other way around. Hope that guy put in some practice after that though, pretty embarrassing to get called to play simple odd meter patterns like that and be so lost that the crowd has to bail you out haha. At least it sounds like everyone was having fun though, in the end that's all that matters right?
Are you still Greek?
@@macescoolchannel what kinda question is that? If your born Greek you stay Greek.
@@huechoob I am aware, it's just that I feel sorry for him for having been born under such conditions.
Every culture usually has a link to a very unique pre-modern music that the kids are just born into it. I assume people around the Mediterranean can clap in 9/8 and they don't even know. Indians in their own, black Americans have gospel and blues etc
In Turkey it's very common, especially in areas closer to Balkans. Gypsys love this for some reason, evey gypsy folk song is in 9/8 in Turkey.
Great explanation of 9/8 (and related) timing. You're right, your explanation is much clearer than the more traditional tutorials I've watched. Thanks!
You should do a video sometime on how to make 4/4 NOT sound like 4/4. Similar to how you explained there's a lot of ways you can write in 9/8 instead of three groups of three, there's also ways to "prog up" 4/4 :)
16th note syncopation with eighth note triplets (12th notes) layered on top
You could always use Poly-rhythms with one of the rhythms in 4/4, that should certainly prog it up.
Tool - The Pot. I couldn't believe it was 4/4 at first
That's kind of what this video is, although it's just one example: ua-cam.com/video/GhlLtd19szw/v-deo.html
simply using odd subdivisions triplets quintuplets septuplets can give that feel switch them in and out and it can sound crazy and all over by just learning to count different subdivisions
4:50 I immediatly see why the grouping is important. As the hihat is not grouped differently for the second bar, I get confused with the bass timing
Yeah I mention it in the description, it's an unfortunate error that I didn't catch till far too late!
Both approaches are useful to me Jake. Thanks for actually bringing them both.
I just wanted to point out that 9/8 is very common in Greek, Turkish and probably more eastern music traditions (and thus not especially confusing to our ears). For example the fast karsilama rythm which is counted as 12 12 12 123. And of course the zeibekiko dance which is a very slow 9, nearly feels like a 4+5.
Second that. It's interesting to see the difference in how people from various backgrounds and cultures perceive the same thing with different ways.
Exactly.In my coui Greece is a very common rythm.Even small kids know this kind of rythm.
i came here because i learned a song i like, Τα παιδιά της γειτονιάς σου, uses it
Thanks Jake! This is the first time I've ever heard someone describe 9/8 in a useful and practical manner. Harpsichord music was commonly written in 9/8, but never really explained very well. The funny thing is, when counted as triplets it's a standard waltz beat or rhythm. Not very modern, but quite practical.
It's one of those your-timing-was-perfect situations for me. I have literally just finished a demo mix of a song I've made using only 9/8. Haven't watched the video yet, but now I'm looking forward to the insights you will provide. They may prove very useful to me! Thanks, anyway! You are great!
Thank you so much for this video man. I've been writing in 9 for a while and it's just really nice to have someone really flesh it out and contextualize how 9 works.
I always find the best explanations about complex rhythm stuff right here. SMS is awesome at this!
Impressively clear explanation. The work you’ve put into the graphics and examples is really amazing. This is very high quality. Thank you.
I like your style of teaching, nice pace, friendly, informative and clear, and inspiring. Thanks
This is a very good explanation.
All I would add is that if a person is counting above 6, it's generally useful to count 7 as 'sev' to keep to 1-sylable counting.
Genius
I feel like a lot of people here in comments who say "I'm feeling 9/8 as 3+3+3" or "I'm feeling 9/8 as 2+2+2+3" are missing the point. 9/8 shouldn't be felt in one way. The way you should feel 9/8 depends on the context. In older classical music, it's basically always 3+3+3 (and this is where the idea of 9/8 being a compound triple meter comes from - old theory books describe it in this way, because they focus on classical music, where this is the way 9/8 is felt, at least the vast majority of time). In more modern music, there are more options (either 3 groups of 3, or some combination of 3 groups of 2 and one group of 3).
Time signatures like this are the reason I encourage every musician to learn basic konnakol.
TBH I would count nearly all of these as konnakol but I didn't want to open up that can of worms yet. One day I'll do a video on konnakol syllables and how/why I use them
I love studying konnakol. It's tough, but so rewarding when your brain finally clicks! I agree - it's such a powerful exercise for any musician.
@@samuelconnolly347 😆 yeah, i think the worst part was when it actually clicked, because I had been drilling it so much at that point, that everything I heard (people talking, random noise, literally everything) became a konnakol phrase to my brain, and it actually started to interfere with day to day life. It was hilarious, and really bad at the same time.
Well I went down a nice wikipedia rabbit hole after googling "konnakol"
@@Necrocidal oh noooooo... I’m sorry man, that’s one hairy rabbit hole to get caught up in. Not sure if you know who Matthias Ecklund is, but he has a pretty good basic explanation. ua-cam.com/video/wlY7rp9xm0I/v-deo.html
Video: Why is the 9/8 time signature so confusing?
Random Turkish guy: Hold my Ayran
I often use 9/8 when transcribing waltzes with a swing rhythm, similar to how 6/8 can be used to transcribe a 4/4 swing.
This was really cool and inspirational. Thanks for another fantastic video. You’re a gifted teacher and really have a knack for simple explanations. Keep up the great work!
As soon as that 9th note hit, it was like Google earth zooming in on the Balkans.
The song "jambi" by tool is actually a really good example of the difference grouping can make. The drums on the intro play the pseudo 4/4 you mention (1 and 2 and 3 and 4 trip let) and then in the verse the kick drum goes to more the compound feel (1 trip let 2 trip let 3 trip let)
i came to this video bc i’m trying to learn jambi on bass but the time signature was so odd to learn
Great video as always. When I write in less common time signatures, I like to write the subdivision as a text next to my music, so it's clear and I really watch my beaming as it can get pretty dense. Love those time signatures, because you can fluently shift between different subdivisions and play with listeners perspective. Suddenly you can shift from disjointed, herky jerky rythm to really fluent and groovy steady puls
Thank you for this resource. I enjoy your pragmatic approach to teaching. Once again we can restate the age-old argument: "the creation should always lead the theory, not the theory (and theorists) leading the creation".
Dave Brubeck introduced the 2 + 2 + 2 + 3 9/8 rhythm to Western audiences with “Blue Rondo a la Turk” (which was in turn inspired by Turkish music).
I literally can't think of the song in my head as 9/8 which is what is quite funny to me...I always truncate it down to 7/8 because the frenzied rhythm makes me feel like the song wants to hurry along...but 9/8 is slightly delayed from 4/4 so it throws me off and I remember it as a 2 + 2 + 3 pattern
As always, check the description for a few important points and corrections :)
I very much agree with what your saying (at around 12:30). I never had any formal musical training, I learned a lot a long the way from sheet music and books on theory (much later...). When I started playing guitar, I got myself a drum computer (Boss Dr. Rhythm). A measure was divided into 16th notes (for 4/4). You could change the length of a measure to create 7/8 or combine different lengths to create 9/8 or 5/4. Or you could switch to triplets. This made the measures really visualize. Later I started working with tab programs, first Tabledit and for quite a while Guitar Pro. But in my head, the way I used to program drums on my trusted Dr. Rhythm works through in how I think about rhythms, and particularly drums.
When I got more into theory of (odd) time signatures I started to perceive measures as combinations of 2's and 3's (I think I got this idea from how time signatures were perceived in Hungarian dances, but it's a more common thought). So 4/4 can be 4 groupings of 2, or 3+3+2. And so on. This way you can combine most time signatures and it makes much more sense.
So perceiving 9/8 only as 3x3 is incorrect and unnecessary limiting. I think it's a typical western (classical?) thought to have things neatly even divided. But life isn't always neatly divided. And still people have a hard time with uneven 9/8 times. Take for example Sting's I Hung My Head which is in 9/8 (5+4) which is also performed by Johnny Cash (American IV) and Bruce Stringsteen (live only as far as I know), but both straightened it out to 4/4 (in Cash version the guitar strums a 3+3+2 rhythm, in Springsteen version a straight 8th note pattern with no syncopation).
Terrific video and your explanation was flawless. Years ago I played a snare drum in a pipes and drums band in Montreal, we had several tunes that had a 9/8 time signature and I always found them very fun to play and had an ineffable quality that was quite stirring.
Thank you for a great views video!
I got your notification after so long Jake❤️, hope you are doing well :) your videos transformed my guitar playing from a clueless beginner to a confident intermediate over a past 1.5 years
Another great vid as always Jake. I really like these ones on rhythm and time signatures. Would love to see one on some tips to make smooth transitions between different time signatures.
I clicked in 9/8th of a second
Genesis- “Supper’s Ready”, Apocalypse in 9/8. Tony Banks still plays in 4/4. Crazy.
And it's so dramatic and big sounding too, who knew you could make a progression that's essentially just major chords sound so ominous and menacing! Really sells the end of the world vibe going on there
Guitars go 4+3+2 and drums go 3+3+3 in some parts.
Genesis seemed to love a bit of 9/8 in their music. Riding the Scree and ...In That Quiet Earth use it too.
From what I know Tony also played a few bars of 7/8 over the 9/8 backing track.
The way you explained and demonstrated this makes this seem SO simple and straightforward. Thank you thank you thank you!!
Great video Jake. 9/8 is definitely one of the strangest and most interesting time signatures out there.
Try listening songs by Halid Beslic. He's a folk singer from Bosnia and Herzegovina, quite popular in the Balkans.
His songs "Necu necu dijamante" and "Budi budi uvek srecna" are great examples of 9/8 used in folk music, and definitely are worth listening to.
Also, "Nocas mi se s tobom spava" by late folk singer from Serbia, Saban Saulic, is also a great 9/8 folk song.
Cheers
It was a great approach to provide visibility and understanding about the elements and variations regarding to the concepts. Thanks for another nice lesson , Jake !
I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain.
6/8 and 9/8 are well established as shorthand for 3+3/8 and 3+3+3/8.
When you'd rather write in another specific meter like 2+2+2+3/8 or 3+4+2/8 you can just write that (using a narrow font if that helps).
When you'd rather write in a meter that changes from measure to measure but always adds up to 9, you could make a note that your 9/8 signifies this, or, better yet, make up a modified symbol (like 9ᵐ/8 or something) instead of just 9/8. If other composers like it they'll adopt it and it'll end up as the standard notation for a freely changing meter that adds up to a count. (9/8 is already standard notation for one specific meter that adds up to 9.)
5:52 thats the best grooves that fits over it I think
I love your videos for the way you portray the info. Let me say with your voice, I'm surprised you aren't a DJ (do they exist anymore?) Keep it up, we use your videos! I was in bands in the early to late 90's. I discovered how to make beats sound interesting as my bassist really understood how to add funk to music to make it more "hooky". Ever since then I knew I had to learn how to do this. Well, I didn't. But now that I homeschool, I'm picking it up again and we use your videos a lot. Big thanks, you're really great at explaining it, and you bringing joy into the lives of those who are learning this. Of course, I smashed that "like" button on every one of your videos we watch. Stay safe and happy.
You make music theory so easy to understand. I always learn something new from you. Thanks!
Excellent video ! You can check how Wagner is using 9/8 in the overture of Tannhauser. It starts in 3/4, and the accompaniement is progressively shifting to 9/8 , but keeping the main theme in 3/4. I think in this case, one could interpret that being triplet in 3/4, but it's easier to read as an 9/8 bar.
I've already watched this video about 4 times. I always get so excited when Jake uploads a video, ESPECIALLY when it applies directly to stuff I am searching for, but without success! Perfect timing yet again, my friend. The only way it'd be better is if it was even sooner! ;D
In prescriptive rules (dogma) vs descriptive rules, descriptive always wins. In an art form as subjective as music, it's hard to understand why anyone would place any hard limits or rules on what you can do - The only limit is your imagination to create things!
Great explanation. So many people put up a fight when I teach the modern 'accent pattern' approach. It yields so much more possibility.
The song Miracles Out of Nowhere by Kansas also makes really great use of 9/8 right at the beginning. It alternates between 4/4 and 9/8, and they even bring in 7/8 at some points. It’s a really interesting song to analyze when it comes to time signatures, in my opinion.
Well explained, animation was awesome! , I played it twice and took notes, great content.
Really cool video. I was looking for some 9/8 time signature examples, but this is much better.
Agreeed man! Preeeaaachh!! I’m so frustrated with getting my music BA right now.
I really like your lessons. Every time I take a snipet and apply it I end up writing new music. Thank you for the inspiration.
I think it was a good idea to show a general creative approach to 9/8 before a steady compound triple meter feel. it starts the viewer off with the creativity mindset. really well made video!
your lessons are golden
Really great visualizations in this video!
You create the best guitar lesson videos imho
The 1st 6 minutes were VERY helpful with counting the 9/8 notes. Seeing 👀 nites and hearing you the count. Thanks!!
I wrote a song that uses 9/4. Odd time signatures groove so much.
9/4 is an unusual signature to use. Sure it isn't 4/4 then 5/4?
@@guitar864 Yes
@@guitar864 how much does that distinction even matter? It just depends on how you mentally subdivide the phrase.
@@rome8180 well, yeah - if you divide the phrase then it isn't 9/4. 9 counts of a 4th note per bar is an obsurdly long bar.
Another super useful tutorial. +1 on coming up with more useful nomenclature.
5:50, this sounds like a Jazz version of Dream Theater
7:02: there we go :D
Also, "traditional" depends on region, in Asia/eastern-Europe the traditional/folklore is 2+2+2+3, whilest in the west is 3+3+3 (which is the obvious time beat that Waltz)
Thanks for a nice and thorough vid, learned quite a few things even if knew some others :)
another mindblowing class! and not only theory or practice!!
Check out "In Old England Town" by the Electric Light Orchestra for the 3×2+3 feel.
This is a really good video man. Nice explanation.
"one-two-three-four-one-two-three-four-five-ONE" (grooves goes on) -> that sounded really cool and spooky, you should make a track using exclusively a drum track and your voice counting out beats as monotonously as possible while still stopping some times. Will have some nice creepy "numbers station" vibe.
Like Car Bomb?
10:17 9/8 is basically 3/4 with Triplets on each beat. Likewise 18/16 (it's in the 26th Variation in Bach's Goldberg Variations) is basically 3/4 with Sextuplets on each beat. The difference lies within how they're written, but other than that it's all the same
I see it as weights on a grid of accents projected.
A player can purposefully slip some of these accents and deftly move between rhythms.
If you're into counting and secrets in music, check out the music of Jaki Liebezeit!
I found I always enjoy your tutorial videos
Time to get Twista on the next DT album
Maybe that's the only way to finally have LaBrie fired.
7/8, 7/8, 7/8, 9/8 TUBULAR BELLS by Mike Oldfield, as it repeats the phrasing, it starts to feel like a 4/4, and is AMAZING! Such a GREAT groove.
Thanks patreons, for supporting Jake help those of us who are not in the financial position to do so and cannot afford music lessons. I really do appreciate all of you guys!❤👍
And Thank you Jake this lesson did help clear the confusion I've had since 'learning' music theory in school, actually all of your lessons do.
✌🙂👍❤🇦🇺
In Turkey we call 9/8 "the Romani style". The band MFÖ uses it as they make catchy Romani inspired music. Check out their song Ele güne karşı.
One of the best videos out there about polyrythms....
You'd be surprised how often 9/8 comes up in hymns, usually the form of 3 sets of triplets.
thats the easiest way to digest it for me. its like how 12/8 is just 4/4 with triplets
It’s fun to go back and forth between the duple and compound meter feels in 9/8. It’s a really simple way to get the feeling of a metric modulation.
I also agree that the best way to view these type of meters is to figure out all the different subdivisions you can use and go from there. There’s no right or wrong approach!
classical example, prog rock example, and a rap example. Love the diversity in the video! It's great to see your take on this subject
Please, please continue making this rhythms videos🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
I Hung My Head written by Sting is in 9/8. It has the backbeat on 3 and 8.
I think that it is just easier to use 2/2, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, etc. instead of 6/8, 9/8/12/8, 15/8 except maybe in jazz swung rhythm because the quarter+8th, or 8th+16th
is easier than the amorphous extend the first note of the two 8ths beamed in most scores. Pop music has few 9/8 songs, and if you are improvising, it is so much easier to integrate other songs in simple time if the drummer is just changing his 4/4 tempo. You could use only 4/4 and 3/4 time considering that phrases can begin and end anywhere in a bar except in some forms of classical music where it was dictated by the genre.
You have the best theory vids.
you overcomplicated this so much with your method at the beginning, the traditional way instantly made sense to me rather than your way
Great video, Jake. My old drummer really helped me understand feels and accents.
This was great. Really helped me understand Rhythms better.
Super informative video thanks a lot for clearing this up.
This may already have been mentioned, but I think that when you let the ride play even quarter notes over two bars (and the riff also takes to bars to repeat) then we could just call it 9/4. But again, what matters isn't what is "formally correct" but what makes it understandable.
Yep, I could say that the cymbal is playing in 9/4, but I'm really just exploring the options of 9/8 beyond a single measure of it. The rest of my band is clearly thinking about 2 measures of 9/8, and thats how I'd write it. But it's fun to play 9/4 on top as demonstrated!
@@SignalsMusicStudio Either way, I think that the trick of letting a ride or hi-hat play play "straight" over two bars so that it falls on the offbeat half the time is a really neat trick and helps tie things together. I think the first time I heard and reflected on this was in Sting's "I Hung My Head". Great song, btw.
As a Middle Eastern Belly dance performer/instructor, I love and understand the Karsilama. It is so much fun to explore, counting it in sets of maybe 3, 3 3 or 4, 2,2,1 and so forth. You can play it, dance it in any way shape or form.
Great video. It helped me a lot in understanding 9/8
I'm writing a song based on a riff in 9/8 right now, this was very helpful!
Very helpful brother. Thank You!
Interesting. I wrote a heavy rock song recently with the main riff in 9/8 with accents on the one, four, five and 8. Then switching to 4/4 in the chorus and back to 9/8 again. I love the result. Cheers
I think the first way you describe is a much more natural way to think about time, particularly for guitarists. Piano is a very percussive instrument, and I think the traditional view is somewhat more amenable to percussive technique -- you care a lot more about strong/weak relationships when thinking about percussion than when playing lead. I tend to think of all time as 'strings of eighth notes grouped in some way' -- counting the groupings directly (e.g., 1-2-3-4 1-2 1-2-3 as opposed to counting 1-& or whole-beat counting or anything). Doing this makes the rhythm I intend much more clear with appropriate beaming, and lets me have a much free-er -- but still locked in -- feeling to my time.
Voices is such a good example, especially if you listen to the drums. Portnoy plays 9/4 on one of his cymbals which makes the placement of the "hit" shift between bars. Pretty cool stuff.
I love playing around with 9/8! It's not as easy as it seems, and there are so many ways to count it and create different, cool rhythms
The 2 songs in 9/8 that comes to my mind and I have listened to are "Voices" Dream Theater (The Mirror Album), and Supper´s Ready Genesis (Apocalypse in 9/8).
"Clair de Lune" is 9/8 and doesn't have a mediterranean feel.
It's funny cause that song specifically is always played with so much rubato that's very hard for me to hear any metric structure without looking at the sheet music
3 + 3 + 3 like wtf why is no one thinking that
apocalypse in 9/8 (Supper's Ready) by Genesis is my first introduction to 9/8!
In Greece our traditional music (mostly dances) is filled with 9/8 and usually they count 2+2+2+3. They play, dance and sing on that time signature and it definitely sounds nothing like prog rock, which is a testament to how that time signature can be used and offer completely different feels.
Just a though... if you are making the last "half quarter note" (like in 5:50) extend to the next bar, wouldn't it be more appropriate to write it as a 18/8 time signature?
10:58 Shouldn't the BPM be slowed down in the 3/4 version to match the speed of the 9/8 version?
Check the tempo markers!
@@SignalsMusicStudio So in 9/8 the dotted quarter note next to the tempo indicates it must be felt as quarter notes in 90 BPM but with triplets?
@@Wind-nj5xz The 9/8 version shows that my steady beat occurs at 90 BPM and is written as a dotted quarter note. The 3/4 version ALSO shows that my steady beat is 90 BPM but those are now quarter notes.
About the counting - I personally would count the 3x3/8 as "one-two-three, two-two-three, three-two-three", just as I count regular 6/8 as "one-two-three, two-two-three" :)
Honestly, the "traditional method" makes more sense to me. I came here looking for a way to count a 9/8 time signature for a piece that I'm writing (which I realized is naturally 9/8) and the fact that a compound meter breaks the 8th notes up into 3 sections of 3 beats makes so much more sense to me than anything. Also, just thought that I would point out that 16th notes are counted as "1-E-and-a".
16th notes would be counted as “1-&-a” in a three-note grouping of 8th note and two 16th notes, which is what he was referring to. He doesn’t like using 1-&-a for a long beat 9/8 beat because to him, that means 8th + two 16th.
I agree with you in the sense that I think learning the traditional version first makes more sense. That’s the starting point; then you move to the other variations.
Great video. Try saying "SEV" instead of SEVEN when counting fast, it's WAAAAY better when you have to include seven. SEV. I started and never looked back. I could a lot of 7/8 as 1 3 5 Sev, 1 3 5 Sev, and it's so much easier.
I do mention this on my vid on odd times :)
@@SignalsMusicStudio Oh, cool. I love your videos, you're a great teacher!
Whoever decided to make seven a two-syllable word was definitely not a musician trying to count measures...
Sev or sen. I learned sen but sev seems useful just the same!
Same with LEV for eleven!
Altered Beast II by King Gizzard and the Lizard makes use of 9/8, as I'm sure many of their other songs do
Altered Beast II is best Altered Beast
King Gizzard uses 9/8 quite a lot. One of their recent songs 'Interior People' is in 9/4, and another one 'Catching Smoke' goes 3 bars of 4/4 and 1 bar of 9/8
Tengo 45 años y soy baterísta "a oído" desde los 13 y "todo" lo que sé, es por aprender de memoria los temas de mis bandas favoritas. Además, mi dominio del Inglés es aún más básico que mi conocimiento de la Teoría Musical. Sin embargo, NUNCA ME HABÍA QUEDADO TAN CLARO el funcionamiento de los 9/8.👏👏👏👏👏👏. Gracias MAESTRO por entregar su saber a quienes desean aprender a pesar de la distancia y de las fronteras de un idioma cualquiera que éste sea..🙏. Saludos desde Chile🇨🇱..