Lot of comments about the 1-2% prevalence rate of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) we cite in the episode. To give some more information, this is the number used by the American Psychology Association, which is based on a 2022 study: www.psychiatry.org/news-room/apa-blogs/what-is-narcissistic-personality-disorder www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10187400/ While there are other numbers out there, most findings cluster between 1-2%. One review of five epidemiological studies in 2018 found that the median prevalence was 1.6%. Another study from 2010 found that the mean among 7 reasonably high-quality prevalence studies was 1.06%. psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-00745-010 pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20579503/ There are outliers. For example, one study based on the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found rates as high as 6.2%. Others have gone even higher than that, though I'd recommend against over-inferring from outlier studies. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669224/ These are studies of prevalence rates in the general population, NOT the clinical population. Researchers are not dumb, they're aware that people with NPD tend to avoid treatment, and they attempt to correct for this by relying on other forms of information gathering. Even so, estimated rates of NPD in the clinical population tend to be much higher than in the general population (comorbidity is likely a significant contributor to this). All that said, these numbers are fuzzy, vague, and imperfect. It’s hard to say with certainty how many people have any mental health issue, in part because we need to decide what we’re trying to measure. Egocentrism is present in NPD, but merely being egocentric, antisocial, or whatever else makes a person annoying to interact with is not necessarily enough to qualify for a formal diagnosis. Someone who hits “only” three of the nine criteria for a diagnosis of NPD might be frustrating, difficult, or even dangerous to be around...without technically being NPD. This is one of the many possible reasons a person might feel their experience is not well-captured by a prevalence rate of 1-2%. Other common possibilities include: 1. Your family of origin includes someone with heavy narcissistic traits/NPD. Our families and early experiences have an outsized impact on our lives, so even one bad apple can create plenty of problems. 2. You tend to be in environments that include a disproportionate number of people with narcissistic traits. 3. You tend to be attracted to people with narcissistic traits. This isn't something to be ashamed of - people with narcissistic traits are often very good at making themselves attractive!
@@ForrestHanson thanks for the facts and thanks for the awareness you are bringing to the issue. There are so many “ camps “ that say there is only xyz % and my opinion is whatever brings people to healing, therapy & awareness is what matters. I have no shame in my personal experiences and have used my trauma to help other women so thanks for the validation.
Thank you for this, I'm wondering if there is also overlap with neurodivergence (and if so, how to find resources/papers on this)? I'm diagnosed autistic and a lot of my family are dysfunctional in the ways described here. I'm just not sure whether it's entirely down to personality disorders or undiagnosed autism of their own (combined with many traumas, of course). Regardless, all the resources you've shared are very helpful, thank you and Rick for doing such great work.
@@mmhmmmificate this is definitely something I should have mentioned directly during the episode itself, @kirbycobain1845 had an excellent comment about related issues. The best study I could find on the topic is probably this one? pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37983956 After a quick scan, it looks like the two diagnoses don't co-occur particularly often, but it's an important rule-out for clinicians. It's also one that can be a bit tricky, probably due to reasons similar to the ones kirby mentioned.
Love your depth and wonderful content . Also appreciate your feedback as how to navigate around and away from these relationships . Any chance you could research the connection of neuro diverse getting to why they can get into toxic relationships thanks if able 💙
I wish this wasn’t posting publicly but alas. As a survivor, I hate putting my info out there but this is too important. First, thank you for acknowledging how flippantly these terms/labels are thrown around now. Nobody - and I mean nobody - has any idea how horrible dealing with these people are unless you’ve lived it. It is not just self-centeredness; it is literally that they are the only ones who matter and exist. You do not and you never will. Every single time you have the audacity to take up space, to state your needs, to mirror back to them their failure to treat you well, you will be met with whatever punishment they know will put you back in your place the best - ignoring you, cheating on you, convincing you that you’re insane, degrading you, etc. For the real lucky ones, we get to experience all of the above over the years. You will spend hours trying to get them to apologize, to remotely care about how their behavior affects you. By the end of the conversation, they will have you convinced you owe them an apology, instead. Up is down and down is up. The sky is green because they say it is. The only way to somewhat manage their horrible treatment is to stay as small, as quiet, and as submissive as humanly possible. To need and want for nothing but them and their needs and wants. You will fail, because you are a living human being with living human being thoughts, feelings, and needs. Only when you get to the place of realizing that the only way to keep them happy is for you to not be a living human being, do you realize the emergent situation you are in. It will be up to you and you alone to courageously decide that you deserve to live and there’s no shame in living with human needs. By the time we reach this point of needing to escape, we rarely have anyone left in our life to help. Never forget that there are DV help lines. It’s the most insidious, destructive abuse and many people struggle to survive. But, here we are, step by step, learning how to do that very thing. For anyone this resonates with, don’t give up. You deserve to take up space, to have needs, to be human.
@@Pathfinder11 coercive control is at least starting to be recognized as a cause for a restraining order. It’s difficult when this dynamic involves children and parental rights or if it gets into the legal sphere at all because our current adversarial, pay-to-play legal systems more often enable the abuse and turn the personal abuse into governmental betrayal which feels all the more heavy and inescapable. These people are getting something from you beyond their satisfaction of the power itself - sex, money, crime.
Thank you pathfinder for writing this out. Still trying to find my way out of living with an n mom and hoping I will eventually find a job and get my mental health back so I can one day feel at peace.
Yes, the only way to survive this invisible prison is to merge with them, to no longer exist. And in the end they disappear like you and the years you spent never existed. I am thankful now that there was an ex, similar in personality type, that took my place. Otherwise I probably wouldn't exist
They are often gratified knowing they have offended or hurt you in some way. When you finally come out of denial that a person you trusted and thought genuinely cared, the truth is very painful and hard to accept. But, like you said, when the mask is removed, there is no going back. Be gentle with yourself. Freedom is on the other side of grief.
I want to express my deep gratitude to you, Forest and Rick, for guiding me in my recovery. As a 38-year-old man, I spent most of my life confused and lost due to how I was mistreated by my parents-they controlled every aspect of my life. Since discovering your podcast, I’ve begun reading and learning about my trauma, and I’ve even started therapy. The journey ahead is long, but I’m grateful to finally be moving in the right direction.
Very proud of you to see the need and to address it by getting professional help. I wish the best in you understanding the evil dynamics . May you move increasingly forward in the truth.....with increased peace and healing. Please by living and patient with yourself......association with such evil people takes a toll of mind fuckery. Hugs to you. Keep the moving forward........it's worth it!
I grew up in a great family with amazing parents who are always learning and growing and I still spent about 15 years attracting these types of people. We hear so much about people who wind up in these relationships because they’re familiar, but not as much about people who wind up here because they simply don’t have defenses against these types of people. My paradigm from childhood was “people are fallible but kind and they always learn and grow.” I’d say it that’s still my worldview just with some edits. 😂 Now it’s more like “people are always fallible and assholes often, but sometimes manage to learn and grow and I’ll wish them luck from afar.” LOL
I know how “out there” this must sound…. But Dr. Rick just comes across as so kind and safe. After watching the news and seeing the constant hostility on social media, it’s just so calming to come on here and watch you gentlemen 💛
I’ve never seen my ex shine more brightly as a totally fake character putting on a show, than he did in front of a therapist. Not only did she buy it, she seemed to be into him. He cornered me, took my cell phone, and threatened to kill me later that night. Also a narcissist is unlikely to go to a therapist, because there is nothing wrong with them. (In their mind) They would only go if absolutely desperate to reel you back in after serious incidents that should all be deal (relationship) breakers, and likely they’ll only go 1-2 times. A narcissist is desperately insecure but cares desperately what people think about them. The resulting defence mechanisms are extremely damaging for those close to them. They CANNOT mentally handle being wrong but they do so many wrong things. So they will lie, blame, attack, escalate, deny clear proof, but never admit fault. If you are not for them, you’re against them in their eyes. Even if it has nothing to do with them. The terrifying thing is that it can take years to realize who you’ve gotten involved with, and they only reveal it a drop at a time, and every reveal is matched with equal campaigns of drawing you in, with commitment, proximity, financially, while simultaneously breaking you down so you lack the strength to leave and make a better victim, so it’s SO gradual, that before you know it you’re living in a prison of misery that it’s almost impossible to escape, or to make anyone else truly understand.
@caroleminke6116 it's also legal for the GB police to falsify records and destroy evidence of crimes with zero recourse unless you can prove they done so with malice which is nigh on impossible.
I understand completely what you have been through. I was married to one of these people for 37years and I left him 1 year ago. He is still trying to reel me back in because it's so damaging to his image that his wife has left him. I am now painted as crazy because it couldn't possibly be his fault in any way that the marriage has failed. I am so upset with myself for taking this long to see the problem and do something about it.
It's when people pretend to have decent human empathy, compassion, yet, full of envy, hate and malicious intent! And you don't see them coming! The shock, the aftermath of harm, of trauma these people cause!
SPOT ON about the fuzz… that’s why it took me so long to leave because I couldn’t figure things out. Now my boundaries are fuzz=out of my life. I loved the positive energy in this video.
Yup, they seem so nice. Married 18 years to a person who was eventually diagnosed a Covert Narcissist and it’s a relief to know I wasn’t crazy. It cracked when he was under pressure and it all came out. When the mask falls it can get really scary.
I feel it's important to mention that sometimes autistic communication patterns can be mistaken for narcissism. This is often a result of the double empathy problem; we (autistic people) may not respond in a way that allistic (non autistic) people understand as empathetic. One thing I heard here (and many other sources on this topic) is that if someone talks mostly about themselves and doesn't ask questions about you, that it could be a red flag for narcissism. It sounds straightforward, but in my experience (and many other) thats actually a common difference in communication style with autistic people. I have a tendency to mostly say things about myself, and expect the other person to follow up with something about themselves if they're interested in sharing. Most neurodivergent people I've talked to follow this pattern as well and it works for us, but it can make things awkward when talking to neurotypical people. It's not that I'm not interested, I just don't usually think to ask, that piece just doesn't come naturally to me and it can be difficult to remember to ask. I do hope people respond with something about themselves because I am genuinely interested, but I forget to give the right "cues"
So true. Overall, I think this conversation style is one of the easier traits to spot, but it MUST be accompanied by other narcissistic traits over time to discern whether a person displays a narcissistic personality style, or whether it's something else, like autism. Examining my own family, I've come to believe that autistic people can also be narcissists, and that an autistic person's nervous system may make them more susceptible to early childhood trauma, leading them to develop unconscious narcissistic (and/or psychopathic, sociopathic, Machiavellian, or sadistic) traits.
I really would appreciate it as someone who is neurodivergent if this could be properly covered! I think psychiatric professionals need to do more talks and research with neurologists! @@ForrestHanson
If someone has been raised by a highly narcissistic parent, they may be highly empathetic themselves but have learned a narcissistic style of communicating, which they may later grow out of through life experience but the conditioning is so strong that it can be hard to wake up and realise your parent is highly narcissistic or NPD., it can take decades. Also talking about oneself, presenting yourself the way you wish to be perceived, can also be a learned habit in order to protect oneself from being criticised or manipulated by an NPD parent. As an adult child of an NPD parent, years of psychotherapy may not be enough to help a person recognise Narcissism in their parent. It is terrifying for a child to realise they cannot rely on a parent for love and safety. In adulthood we may gradually come to understand that this is the case, but it may take decades, but experiencing this reality in a felt way after years of shutting down such feelings is so difficult, yet essential for healing. A person cannot heal while they are still experiencing narcissistic and emotional abuse and neglect. As a child I thought I would never find the words. It wasn't alcoholism or drug addiction but something else. As an adult I found the book - Marie Cardinal wrote a novel based on her life called "The Words to Say it".
This was a really helpful episode for me. It helped validate my experience, especially the description of "fuzzy" communication or behaviour. Rick's description of the "right arm" talking back, surprising the toxic person, resonated more the 2nd time I listened to this episode between my listens, I had listened to a podcast from Jessica Knight who used the analogy that toxic people treat the people around themselves like their "teddy bears". Teddy Bears take whatever treatment the narcissist person doles out, but participate and enable the narcissist's narrative. Behaving like anything besides a teddy bear is unacceptable to the narc. I'm still working on how to navigate and cut ties with the difficult person in my life. It's brutal and taking too long.
Forrest, you articulate the experience of interacting with a narcissistic type so perfectly...especially the playbook strategies like " if you're really my friend... " Ugh...so manipulative and the more sensitive of us are more vulnerable because we are highly empathetic.
You are a GREAT TEAM. You explain clearly the condition in easy to understand terms for the layperson. Very practical and usable info. Im a layoerson abd had to do MUCH reading and podcast vuewing. Your info is SOoo good and compregensive that i think im going to use your podcasts to review and strengthen what uve learned. It has taken years at understanding dynamics to start understanding and to begin healing. Thank God, I'm feeling better and more myself and want to thank you for your part in this sad and difficult process. Im in a very rural area so finding GOOD professional help is next to impossible. You provide an invaluable service. THANK YOU for your part!
This is one of the best talks on this topic I've heard yet and I've been listening for about 2 years now to a number of different speakers, having experienced a relationship with a person that would score extremely high in the dark triad and is the covert narcissist type. This talk made me feel like I wish we were sitting at a table with coffee. Just discussing this. She got through to a lot of people in ways they'll understand and you've helped a lot so thank you. 😊
The idea that there’s something that feels “fuzzy” about them is excellent. I’ve experienced that many times, but I didn’t have a term for it. Thank you Forrest!
Wish I knew this 5 years ago. I didn’t even realize my own father was a malignant narcissist and I have a masters in psychology. We didn’t discuss this or even talk about this 13 years ago in grad school. I ended up being fooled by a covert narcissistic person. We share a child and it’s been one of the worst experiences ( besides my own father). I’ve met about 4 narcissists in my life. It’s hard to tell.
I have followed Rick Hanson's work for some time. This podcast has the best information I have ever found on this topic. It really clarified what I'm dealing with, giving concrete info to help navigate these unfortunate situations. Thank you both.
Deep gratitude for this episode. What came up for me as I listened was sadness (that I didn't know what this was for so long) and joy (that I feel better equipped to handle it). It is through your podcast, my own resilience, equanimity, therapy and solid friends/family that confirm I am not crazy and give me strength. A friend told me about your podcast years ago, it was truly a catalyst for my growth. Thank you 🙏💖
Excellent discussion.. great insights. At the end of the day, we're all just imperfect humans. Humility and appreciating one another as doing the best we can with what we have in each moment. It isn't easy being green, as my favorite wise Muppet Frog tells us! 😉🐸
My ears pricked up when I heard you talk about "regulating their behavior" when you're speaking of someone else. That's A red flag for me! Being a people-pleaser and codependent who would try to head off the potential conflict and anger that could be coming from the bully/ narcissist in my life -- trying to regulate their behavior -- as I'm in the midst of recovery (ACA) THAT is what I fight to *NOT* do. "You cannot control other's behavior." Also -- eggshell walking means you're being abused -- whether physically or emotionally.
The difference with a full on Sociopath is they learn to be good at these things and still not have any emotion behind them. They use it as a tool of control.
Thank you. I so appreciate Dr Hanson’s professional expertise combined with Forrest’s practical and thoughtful applications. This was very thorough for such a broad topic. I really appreciated it.
I’m grateful that you addressed the fact that some of us listening may have some of these traits. While I aspire to be a kind and considerate person, for a variety of reasons I seem to have become more and more self focused over the years, and notice things about myself (an inability to tolerate criticism, a tendency to give more than I take, to be somewhat transactional, or to be more unkind and reactive behind closed doors) that are kind of concerning. It’s so hard to make proactive changes rather than just getting bogged down in shame.
I can’t thank you enough for this video and your amazingly insightful and well articulated understanding of these personality traits. I have researched for years after I realized that these behaviors from others in my life were not acceptable and not “ normal “ and this video is so well explained about these behaviors and I feel heard. Instead of trying to explain these issues to others about what I have experienced, I will share this video and tell them this explains it all.
Rick I have " little things" too. "Not my puzzle to solve." " No judge, no grudge. " And yes, self differentiation. " I have a right to protect my own safety. "
@@sindigoroygbiv5743 Could be karmic. Being targeted by a sociopathic type does not involve consent and could be consciously rejected, in which case the sociopathic type pushes further.
They're like a box of bee's beneath the surface. Whilst its true that none of us relish criticism those further along the spectrum of these personality issues really really can not withstand any push back or differs of opinions. They react with anger and pure rage. Thus there is no room for growth or improvements
Excellent content. As a woman who cared too much, I have had to learn healthy boundaries and also have learned the constant rejection is indeed God's protection. Civil court must have personality testing to determine custodial parents as parents who bully, create children who bully. This behaviors are enabled and causing trauma in public schools. It goes further than that because teachers pensions are heavily invested in pharmaceutical companies.
There's more. There coming. You have the information and tools to stay protected. Stay vigilant with a balanced heart and opened 3rd eye. Desernment. That was a good-looking kid growing up and I got to tell you there was a lot of discrimination. Still to this day people assume things are easy for me. Remember we would have to walk in the person's shoes to really understand what they've gone through.
Would be interesting to see a guest who studies macro level societal psych...i find i have encountered alot more extremely self absorbed people in the workplace in the last 5 years...they genuinely dont care about consequences of their actions to others or the organization. Also in volunteering i do. Not diagnosed disorders but pretty extreme selfishness seems to be more socially acceptable currently. The Hyper individual culture and social media has helped to foster this....
Concur….there’s a lot of talk about bullies in childhood, but many become the bullies at work later on….employees who think they can “fire” or exclude others they don’t like…sadistic bosses, dismissive, contemptuous, unethical…..the list goes on.
Gentlemen, this was a really well balanced assessment on dealing with the dark triad and an offers very practical ways of managing yourself when managing them. Thank you.
From what I’ve read, the percentage of antisocial personality disorder in the general population is 3.6%. Then you’re looking at about 2% for narcissistic personality disorder. That’s over 5%, that’s a lot of troublemakers with full-blown personality disorders, so I wouldn’t minimize that. More than one in 25. That explains a lot about how things are.
He had zero tells… ZERO. In hindsight, only a few things stand out. With knowledge… I see it. Covert narcissist with sociopathic tendencies. A loving way to steal my life for 30 years. His goddess. Completely manipulated & used me. Millions of lies. He was always right. Rarely said he was sorry. Soooo kind all the time. Loves children and animals. He helped me heal from childhood pain. He “taught me” unconditional love. Only to rip me to shreds. 4 years of intense therapy. Neuro/Biofeedback, 8 ketamine treatments with a psychologist, weekly emdr. These people are dangerous.
Growing up being the baby, of a very large, strict protestent religious family, it was so chaotic, and in upheaval coupled with a narrative that developed where the elder sons & daughter were the golden children and the two youngest were the scapegoats and neglected and blamed & shamed..and then, when became adults; estranged. These attitudes were very toxic, and won't ever have a connection with them
My medically diagnosed Sociopath brother is easier to deal with when I arm myself with knowledge of their behavior and I always remind myself that this is who he is and will act like a sociopath. Latest example is too funny, he approached me, I told him I was in a bad mood and it would be best if he left me alone for the moment. We went back and forth until he put his fistup and saiid "want to fight" in a "playful" manner- also known as gaslight me and I turned it around on him and said- " no brother I want to cry .. not fight" .. he literally cringed and proceeded to leave.. I yelled out - run brother run cuz you may have to care.... I felt so proud that I knew how to deal with him. I love knowing how to handle him better..... sociopaths hate when you cry or show emotions.
Compassion to you who describe your mom ❤️🩹. That sadistic streak is very real, they can hide it well and people with BPD are a quite diverse group- sometimes it feels like something akin to racism is how one’s comments about one’s lived experiences are received. Take care, breathe inwards and know your light is within you - was was, is and will always be there.
Thank you both for this content. Both of my parents were narcissists, my mother a covert one. My husband is deeply narcissistic, of course, and I can also have these tendencies. In fact, my default, I can now see, used to be narcissistic behaviour - as that was all I'd learned. It's taken a huge amount of work for me to be able to operate more healthily, but it's still a work in progress. In my experience with many narcissists (yay) these people are SO incredibly damaged and see themselves as victims and "in the right". They are insidious and Forrest's observation about covert narcs being dangerous in particular is I think, spot on.
I don’t know if I agree about the ‘labeling’ point made here. I find that 99 percent of people don’t think at all in terms of defining people as narcissistic or sociopathic. I think that’s why and how those on the triad get away with doing so much harm. We have never been taught about it. We aren’t socially conscious of it, and this lack of awareness can put us in the wrong relationships again and again, with these people. Who harm us. As well, these people get themselves in positions of power, and then we are underneath them and having to try to reason with them, and they are unreasonable at their core.
Here's something to mull over too: It's a little shady to me to say narcissists "like" being what they are when they're very likely never experienced anything else. Back in the day I had a sponsor who would always say "Alcoholics loooove chaos!", and I disagree. Alcoholics know chaos. Can you imagine being so confined and tight mentally that you would say, "Oatmeal is my favourite, and I'm never trying anything else."? Screw ice cream, broccoli, bagels, lentils, shrimp, chocolate, lemonade... I just think it is quite imperative to always cast judgment and labels with a good dose of compassion. We would never shame someone who is colour blind for not being able to just see the colour red as we do.
I can see what you’re saying because I see for example that two of my children were so brainwashed by their psychopath father that they actually believed that his behavior and lifestyle was “ normal “ , so they became as he was. I feel like for my two children it was like Stockholm syndrome situation with their father. Also for myself growing up in a toxic home watching my father be abusive to my mother, I assumed this behavior was normal and acceptable all throughout my early adulthood, until my second marriage was so traumatic and my husband was so abusive and I went to therapy and realized that this wasn’t okay, wasn’t “normal”and I didn’t have to endure it.
Boundaries yes. But much unmentioned is the other side of those, which is asking ‘specific requests’ as of expressing needs, so you know where you are at with this person. Often the ones who are choosing to be with such people have not much trained their ‘needs muscle’.
I experienced something really off to say the least in a clinical setting.. it looks like bullying where the team have all joined in - mobbing etc. However my most disturbing experience is my strong sense that someone in the background has psychopathic traits.
There is a very high density of people working in the mental health field here in the UK of toxic personality types , it's a Ideal opportunity for them when dealing with vulnerable people,they have a captive audience "narcissistic supply"&get paid very well.Also they are protected because people are more likely to believe the MH worker than the client, there's a lot research going on in this area right now.
@@Ann-eb8dp yes absolutely, these predictors are attracted to positions of power, that's why I don't agree with Forest Hansons father on this occasion about is comments on psychotherapists near beginning of the video.There's plenty with all the fancy credentials that manage to slip the net, at best some of them are very unresolved,they haven't dealt with their own issues &go in to these proffesions in a bid to bypass there unresolved conflicts.Daniel McKellar covers this very well in is videos,ex psychotherapist,why he withdrew from the field.
antisocial personality disorder is 4% of the population according to the DSM five. I don’t know where you’re getting your statistics, narcissism is also more than one percent! in the family I grew up in, two out of five are diagnosed as antisocial personality disorder. And it’s not mild!!! They do damage everywhere they go. This makes me wonder if you’re a bit naïve, or if you’ve just been fortunate to not encounter people like this, because they are everywhere, if you know what to look for.
Hi, do you have references for this research that you have noted please. If not the full paper article, then just the names of the researchers or the research group . Thanks.
As I mentioned on another comment, this is simply not how we find those estimates. People who do research in the field are aware that people with full NPD are unlikely to opt-in to treatment.
Wealth creates a bubble of protection which can lead to dehumanization of the other human who is less privileged. Not surprising that the quote “There but for the grace of God go I” A judge is privileged with a moral imperative to blind justice they may or may not have the moral integrity to uphold
Would you do something on sadistic people? That’s rarely addressed by anyone. There used to be a sadistic personality disorder category. It’s not in the DSM anymore, but I grew up with someone that fits it perfectly. I had a parent like that, and they can do a tremendous amount of damage. The malevolence and pleasure in harming others is something to behold.
Thank you for highlighting that a real diagnosis is rare. Everyone seems to be a narcissist nowadays and I've wondered if it's really appropriate to throw that label around so much.
@@kleinereverie8763 whatever brings people, to therapy , healing, awareness and safety is more important than throwing around a label.. who cares how people define it? This whole statement takes away from the damaging impact of a narcissistic person. Giving the Perp more grace than the victim is a form. Smh 🤦♀️
@@OswaldfiveoHave to agree! Never helpful to call someone out on it, but if you ask 300 people if their Narc had a diagnosis I'm gonna bet 300 of them did not. Narcissist expression is far more common than NPD & it lives in us all. The only narcissist we need to devote our attention to is the one that lives in us. My experience of people constantly talking about narcissism & seeing it in others, are people that don't see it in their own behavior, infrequently or otherwise. There can be no true understanding of something we are not willing to see EVERYWHERE it presents. Not just in our naughty parents & ex's we can point at. 😏 Come on now.... Mirrors. We can look if we want to.
@@jb-ze1yh Well, if you watch the video, Forest actually says it does indeed matter if you throw around the label, not just for the other person, but for yourself too. Very extreme for you to label my curiosity (I wonder...) as taking away from the damage caused. Don't assume what other people have or haven't experienced in regards to narcissistic behaviour. That said, I could have guessed such a video topic would provoke strong responses.
Excellent discussion! But a crucial lack of discussion of neurodivergent and autism. For example, I talk so much but if someone talks to me I enjoy and listen. I have combined ADHD. So find it hard to focus. But I do try!
The best way I found to explain to my family and friends why I stayed in an abusive relationship for 13 was to describe it as choosing to live with a lion in a cage. At first it's kind of cool that this lion let's you hang out in their cage. You feel chosen and special for it. The lion is dangerous, but you can learn everything about this lion. You can learn what the lion's favourite foods are, when to feed them, what music to play, what words to say to soothe them. This doesn't always work, but it works most of the time. Slowly, the lion gets bored and what used to work, doesn't anymore. You start to scramble. This is now a bit of an embarrassing situation. You can't tell your friends that you can't go out that night because you're afraid the lion will have a tantrum and change the locks while you're out of the house. They'd think you're an idiot just for allowing yourself to be in this situation. Of course, they don't know that your finances, car key and so on, are not under your control any longer. The risk is a lot higher than anybody realises, even though they know the lion could eat you. The lion can also starve you. So you stay. Because after all, yes, this is not a good situation and you don't like this lion any more, but you do know the lion's favourite foods. And while you're in the cage with this lion, the other lions can't get you.
Oh luv. You're absolutely right. Im so sorry you had to go through hell. I hope its over now, and that you're mending .. the mending takes time.. love yourself through it ALL♥️
My ex husband started raging at our son when he was about 4. At first I didn't know what to do other than put myself in between my cowering child and this raging man who had become a horrifying stranger. I fought back. I defended my son. But somehow I was begged/coerced into having another pregnancy at around this time, and I thought maybe if I gave him another child he would be kinder. Wrong! He gradually became more and more cruel to my son--contempt was his go to treatment of my son. I was busy doing backbends trying to please my husband, a monster from raging at us. He said a second child is what he really wanted. I kept trying different things to make him be "nice" and stop being so cruel. I was suddenly feeling like a trapped slave and my son & I were always walking on eggshells. Alas, after decades of abuse and difficulty my son took his life, despite therapy, my unconditional love, my constant advocacy for him... These dark triad types are very, very dangerous. A year before my son took his life, his father told him what a burden he was, and how because of his existence, he would never be able to retire. I watched my beautiful son crumple. I was enraged but my husband kept yelling and screaming at us with very tiny pupils and I feared for my life. It turns out I was right. I'm so angry at my abusive, selfish, contemptuous, raging, divisive triangulating for slowly killing my son and making him feel like a nothing.
I know its trendy these days to pathoologize social dysfunction, but its not the direction id like to see you two join. Lets staty focused on how we can heal and be more accepting of our not yet perfect relational capacity.
I have a Master's Degree in Counseling and Psychology. It didn't take too long to recognize this pattern in my neighbor and her son but the most recent behaviors of the two was a bit chilling to me. I have discontinued all contact with them because it made me SO uncomfortable. The details are so many and too long to write. If it's possible to contact you in some other way, I would like to. If not, I pretty much know what to do. This was a very informative video and I'm happy that I found you both!
What they show depends on what your relation to them is. When you are on the 'outside' and there is something to gain from the relationship they can be quite friendly, cooperative etc. However when there is nothing to 'earn' or win, or when you cannot leave (such as in a marriage) they show their nasty behaviour. And it can change in a split second when the doorbell rings.
Thoughts about the evolutionary advantages of dark triad. Precursors might be warriors and hunters, both needed in many hunter-gatherer environments. The hunter would be impaired if they have too much empathy for the animal they kill. This happened in a context where all nature is sacred, so it’s solved by a prayer of thanks to the god of the deer, rabbit or other prey, but still requires a detachment from empathy for the life sacrificed for food. The warrior is similar, but now it requires a lack of empathy for another human.
I'm sure the dark triad personality is on a spectrum. It's been very hard learning how to communicate that I am the child of a mother on that spectrum. After almost 30 years of therapy I have heard her described as my "tormentor" more than once. I dissociated the first time when I was 5 because her psychological machinations were so demonic.
In case the narcissist is your ex, i can advise to communicate about the kids via email. Not by phone, not by whatsapp. Email allowed me to create the request or response and let it sit in the Concepts for a few days. And then i could strip the texts from emotion* and unnecessary comments. This not only helped me in the recovery, but it is good to have all agreements on paper. Also emailing has the opportunity to forward/reply.the message. Useful for me when i reminded him to answer on a mail, so he could not say that he had not received that earlier mail. *) the most emotional unnecesarry comment that i allowed myself was the following: "you may find it difficult that everything is 50/50 now". But that comment was useful as it silenced his many complaints about the splitting of the money.
@@serenalivinginvegas here's a good article on it: ourworldindata.org/how-do-researchers-study-the-prevalence-of-mental-illnesses Researchers typically combine a variety of approaches. These kinds of numbers are always going to be a bit fuzzy and inaccurate, but they're our best guesses based on current information.
I'm licky as a technician that I can use my help desk ticket system to list what I did and when. It's gotten so bad that I also open a second ticket to write notes that they don't want recorded (boss said don't detail what you did as they say it made them feel "inept" - saying I turned it on and it worked could bring a person to feel bad, but I know it goes beyond - maybe they said it as they don't want it recorded that they are allowing their employee to do XYZ). In short, I'm lucky I get to limit things to ticket comments ONLY.
Can these types of romantic relationships become addictive in the sense that cognitively, there is awareness, but emotionally and physically, the attraction overrides cognition and derails wise decisionmaking?
Absolutely!! This is because of ‘intermittent reinforcement’ - the person goes hot and cold on you, triggering the neurochemical reactions for addiction! “Hot and cold” pattern is one of the biggest signs of an emotional abuser overall (whether narcissist or not!)
Yes, it is possible. I am seeing it unfold right now. My friend and group mate (we study psychology together, getting our masters degree) got into a relationship with a sociopath. She got out, but still feels intensely drawn to him, understanding that it’s dangerous for her she stays away… but it is hard for her
Forrest, can you do an episode about Jungian therapy (I don’t know much about it) or the BITE model for authoritative control and ways to not fall for controlling tactics (my situations for authoritative control relate to childhood and a former working environment that was unhealthy). There was lots of bullying behavior and after a while it just wears down a person and makes them vulnerable for more controlling tactics.
My husband though not formally diagnosed, I believe to be in the high end of spectrum disorder. I could have it wrong and he is moderately narcissistic. I have found myself shrinking away into nothing because everything is about him. It is no longer pleasurable relationship after 20 years. Feel stuck at 65 years. He is 70. He has more income. Myself none so feel constrained to take action to not wilt away. I want to live again. I want to come back to the light. Wondering how narcissist relates to traits of high functioning Asperger's?
Lot of comments about the 1-2% prevalence rate of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) we cite in the episode. To give some more information, this is the number used by the American Psychology Association, which is based on a 2022 study:
www.psychiatry.org/news-room/apa-blogs/what-is-narcissistic-personality-disorder
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10187400/
While there are other numbers out there, most findings cluster between 1-2%. One review of five epidemiological studies in 2018 found that the median prevalence was 1.6%. Another study from 2010 found that the mean among 7 reasonably high-quality prevalence studies was 1.06%.
psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-00745-010
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20579503/
There are outliers. For example, one study based on the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found rates as high as 6.2%. Others have gone even higher than that, though I'd recommend against over-inferring from outlier studies.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669224/
These are studies of prevalence rates in the general population, NOT the clinical population. Researchers are not dumb, they're aware that people with NPD tend to avoid treatment, and they attempt to correct for this by relying on other forms of information gathering. Even so, estimated rates of NPD in the clinical population tend to be much higher than in the general population (comorbidity is likely a significant contributor to this).
All that said, these numbers are fuzzy, vague, and imperfect. It’s hard to say with certainty how many people have any mental health issue, in part because we need to decide what we’re trying to measure. Egocentrism is present in NPD, but merely being egocentric, antisocial, or whatever else makes a person annoying to interact with is not necessarily enough to qualify for a formal diagnosis. Someone who hits “only” three of the nine criteria for a diagnosis of NPD might be frustrating, difficult, or even dangerous to be around...without technically being NPD. This is one of the many possible reasons a person might feel their experience is not well-captured by a prevalence rate of 1-2%. Other common possibilities include:
1. Your family of origin includes someone with heavy narcissistic traits/NPD. Our families and early experiences have an outsized impact on our lives, so even one bad apple can create plenty of problems.
2. You tend to be in environments that include a disproportionate number of people with narcissistic traits.
3. You tend to be attracted to people with narcissistic traits. This isn't something to be ashamed of - people with narcissistic traits are often very good at making themselves attractive!
@@ForrestHanson thanks for the facts and thanks for the awareness you are bringing to the issue. There are so many “ camps “ that say there is only xyz % and my opinion is whatever brings people to healing, therapy & awareness is what matters. I have no shame in my personal experiences and have used my trauma to help other women so thanks for the validation.
Thank you for this, I'm wondering if there is also overlap with neurodivergence (and if so, how to find resources/papers on this)? I'm diagnosed autistic and a lot of my family are dysfunctional in the ways described here. I'm just not sure whether it's entirely down to personality disorders or undiagnosed autism of their own (combined with many traumas, of course).
Regardless, all the resources you've shared are very helpful, thank you and Rick for doing such great work.
@@mmhmmmificate this is definitely something I should have mentioned directly during the episode itself, @kirbycobain1845 had an excellent comment about related issues.
The best study I could find on the topic is probably this one? pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37983956
After a quick scan, it looks like the two diagnoses don't co-occur particularly often, but it's an important rule-out for clinicians. It's also one that can be a bit tricky, probably due to reasons similar to the ones kirby mentioned.
I have lived in NYC for 60 years and NPDs are annoyingly everywhere.
Love your depth and wonderful content . Also appreciate your feedback as how to navigate around and away from these relationships . Any chance you could research the connection of neuro diverse getting to why they can get into toxic relationships thanks if able 💙
I wish this wasn’t posting publicly but alas. As a survivor, I hate putting my info out there but this is too important. First, thank you for acknowledging how flippantly these terms/labels are thrown around now. Nobody - and I mean nobody - has any idea how horrible dealing with these people are unless you’ve lived it. It is not just self-centeredness; it is literally that they are the only ones who matter and exist. You do not and you never will. Every single time you have the audacity to take up space, to state your needs, to mirror back to them their failure to treat you well, you will be met with whatever punishment they know will put you back in your place the best - ignoring you, cheating on you, convincing you that you’re insane, degrading you, etc. For the real lucky ones, we get to experience all of the above over the years. You will spend hours trying to get them to apologize, to remotely care about how their behavior affects you. By the end of the conversation, they will have you convinced you owe them an apology, instead. Up is down and down is up. The sky is green because they say it is. The only way to somewhat manage their horrible treatment is to stay as small, as quiet, and as submissive as humanly possible. To need and want for nothing but them and their needs and wants. You will fail, because you are a living human being with living human being thoughts, feelings, and needs. Only when you get to the place of realizing that the only way to keep them happy is for you to not be a living human being, do you realize the emergent situation you are in. It will be up to you and you alone to courageously decide that you deserve to live and there’s no shame in living with human needs. By the time we reach this point of needing to escape, we rarely have anyone left in our life to help. Never forget that there are DV help lines. It’s the most insidious, destructive abuse and many people struggle to survive. But, here we are, step by step, learning how to do that very thing. For anyone this resonates with, don’t give up. You deserve to take up space, to have needs, to be human.
Trauma bonded
@@Pathfinder11 coercive control is at least starting to be recognized as a cause for a restraining order. It’s difficult when this dynamic involves children and parental rights or if it gets into the legal sphere at all because our current adversarial, pay-to-play legal systems more often enable the abuse and turn the personal abuse into governmental betrayal which feels all the more heavy and inescapable. These people are getting something from you beyond their satisfaction of the power itself - sex, money, crime.
Sorry you experienced this but thank you for sharing as I have experienced this exact situation as well.
Thank you pathfinder for writing this out. Still trying to find my way out of living with an n mom and hoping I will eventually find a job and get my mental health back so I can one day feel at peace.
Yes, the only way to survive this invisible prison is to merge with them, to no longer exist. And in the end they disappear like you and the years you spent never existed.
I am thankful now that there was an ex, similar in personality type, that took my place. Otherwise I probably wouldn't exist
They are often gratified knowing they have offended or hurt you in some way. When you finally come out of denial that a person you trusted and thought genuinely cared, the truth is very painful and hard to accept. But, like you said, when the mask is removed, there is no going back. Be gentle with yourself. Freedom is on the other side of grief.
I absolutely learned that these people can be and ultimately are very dangerous and never to underestimate this.
I want to express my deep gratitude to you, Forest and Rick, for guiding me in my recovery. As a 38-year-old man, I spent most of my life confused and lost due to how I was mistreated by my parents-they controlled every aspect of my life. Since discovering your podcast, I’ve begun reading and learning about my trauma, and I’ve even started therapy. The journey ahead is long, but I’m grateful to finally be moving in the right direction.
Very proud of you to see the need and to address it by getting professional help. I wish the best in you understanding the evil dynamics . May you move increasingly forward in the truth.....with increased peace and healing. Please by living and patient with yourself......association with such evil people takes a toll of mind fuckery. Hugs to you. Keep the moving forward........it's worth it!
I grew up in a great family with amazing parents who are always learning and growing and I still spent about 15 years attracting these types of people. We hear so much about people who wind up in these relationships because they’re familiar, but not as much about people who wind up here because they simply don’t have defenses against these types of people. My paradigm from childhood was “people are fallible but kind and they always learn and grow.” I’d say it that’s still my worldview just with some edits. 😂 Now it’s more like “people are always fallible and assholes often, but sometimes manage to learn and grow and I’ll wish them luck from afar.” LOL
Same here. Love that last point
@@veronikaljungberg7149 🩵🩵🩵
I know how “out there” this must sound…. But Dr. Rick just comes across as so kind and safe.
After watching the news and seeing the constant hostility on social media, it’s just so calming to come on here and watch you gentlemen 💛
thank God for sweet men
I’ve never seen my ex shine more brightly as a totally fake character putting on a show, than he did in front of a therapist. Not only did she buy it, she seemed to be into him. He cornered me, took my cell phone, and threatened to kill me later that night. Also a narcissist is unlikely to go to a therapist, because there is nothing wrong with them. (In their mind) They would only go if absolutely desperate to reel you back in after serious incidents that should all be deal (relationship) breakers, and likely they’ll only go 1-2 times.
A narcissist is desperately insecure but cares desperately what people think about them. The resulting defence mechanisms are extremely damaging for those close to them. They CANNOT mentally handle being wrong but they do so many wrong things. So they will lie, blame, attack, escalate, deny clear proof, but never admit fault. If you are not for them, you’re against them in their eyes. Even if it has nothing to do with them. The terrifying thing is that it can take years to realize who you’ve gotten involved with, and they only reveal it a drop at a time, and every reveal is matched with equal campaigns of drawing you in, with commitment, proximity, financially, while simultaneously breaking you down so you lack the strength to leave and make a better victim, so it’s SO gradual, that before you know it you’re living in a prison of misery that it’s almost impossible to escape, or to make anyone else truly understand.
Coercive control is now punishable by law in GB
@caroleminke6116 it's also legal for the GB police to falsify records and destroy evidence of crimes with zero recourse unless you can prove they done so with malice which is nigh on impossible.
I understand completely what you have been through. I was married to one of these people for 37years and I left him 1 year ago. He is still trying to reel me back in because it's so damaging to his image that his wife has left him. I am now painted as crazy because it couldn't possibly be his fault in any way that the marriage has failed. I am so upset with myself for taking this long to see the problem and do something about it.
Sally 💯. I have had the therapy experience too.
Susan you are free. That is a great achievement. Enjoy the rest of your life in the simplest ways possible.
It's when people pretend to have decent human empathy, compassion, yet, full of envy, hate and malicious intent! And you don't see them coming! The shock, the aftermath of harm, of trauma these people cause!
Absolutely! I have met some people like this and the mask eventually falls off.
Dad’s list at 52 min in…hit me hard. Thanks for validating my feelings.
SPOT ON about the fuzz… that’s why it took me so long to leave because I couldn’t figure things out. Now my boundaries are fuzz=out of my life. I loved the positive energy in this video.
Yup, they seem so nice. Married 18 years to a person who was eventually diagnosed a Covert Narcissist and it’s a relief to know I wasn’t crazy. It cracked when he was under pressure and it all came out. When the mask falls it can get really scary.
I feel it's important to mention that sometimes autistic communication patterns can be mistaken for narcissism. This is often a result of the double empathy problem; we (autistic people) may not respond in a way that allistic (non autistic) people understand as empathetic. One thing I heard here (and many other sources on this topic) is that if someone talks mostly about themselves and doesn't ask questions about you, that it could be a red flag for narcissism. It sounds straightforward, but in my experience (and many other) thats actually a common difference in communication style with autistic people. I have a tendency to mostly say things about myself, and expect the other person to follow up with something about themselves if they're interested in sharing. Most neurodivergent people I've talked to follow this pattern as well and it works for us, but it can make things awkward when talking to neurotypical people. It's not that I'm not interested, I just don't usually think to ask, that piece just doesn't come naturally to me and it can be difficult to remember to ask. I do hope people respond with something about themselves because I am genuinely interested, but I forget to give the right "cues"
For sure, great point.
So true. Overall, I think this conversation style is one of the easier traits to spot, but it MUST be accompanied by other narcissistic traits over time to discern whether a person displays a narcissistic personality style, or whether it's something else, like autism. Examining my own family, I've come to believe that autistic people can also be narcissists, and that an autistic person's nervous system may make them more susceptible to early childhood trauma, leading them to develop unconscious narcissistic (and/or psychopathic, sociopathic, Machiavellian, or sadistic) traits.
I doubt autistic people are consistently manipulative and exploitative. It annoys me when an exploitative person uses autism as an excuse.
I really would appreciate it as someone who is neurodivergent if this could be properly covered! I think psychiatric professionals need to do more talks and research with neurologists! @@ForrestHanson
If someone has been raised by a highly narcissistic parent, they may be highly empathetic themselves but have learned a narcissistic style of communicating, which they may later grow out of through life experience but the conditioning is so strong that it can be hard to wake up and realise your parent is highly narcissistic or NPD., it can take decades. Also talking about oneself, presenting yourself the way you wish to be perceived, can also be a learned habit in order to protect oneself from being criticised or manipulated by an NPD parent. As an adult child of an NPD parent, years of psychotherapy may not be enough to help a person recognise Narcissism in their parent. It is terrifying for a child to realise they cannot rely on a parent for love and safety. In adulthood we may gradually come to understand that this is the case, but it may take decades, but experiencing this reality in a felt way after years of shutting down such feelings is so difficult, yet essential for healing. A person cannot heal while they are still experiencing narcissistic and emotional abuse and neglect. As a child I thought I would never find the words. It wasn't alcoholism or drug addiction but something else. As an adult I found the book - Marie Cardinal wrote a novel based on her life called "The Words to Say it".
This was a really helpful episode for me. It helped validate my experience, especially the description of "fuzzy" communication or behaviour.
Rick's description of the "right arm" talking back, surprising the toxic person, resonated more the 2nd time I listened to this episode between my listens, I had listened to a podcast from Jessica Knight who used the analogy that toxic people treat the people around themselves like their "teddy bears". Teddy Bears take whatever treatment the narcissist person doles out, but participate and enable the narcissist's narrative. Behaving like anything besides a teddy bear is unacceptable to the narc.
I'm still working on how to navigate and cut ties with the difficult person in my life. It's brutal and taking too long.
Forrest, you articulate the experience of interacting with a narcissistic type so perfectly...especially the playbook strategies like " if you're really my friend... " Ugh...so manipulative and the more sensitive of us are more vulnerable because we are highly empathetic.
Pedantic shout out for not confusing geeky with nerdy. As a non-geeky nerd, that's a pet peeve of mine. 😊
Ahh! The ‘fuzz’ factor! Very inciteful… Thank you Forrest!
You are a GREAT TEAM. You explain clearly the condition in easy to understand terms for the layperson. Very practical and usable info. Im a layoerson abd had to do MUCH reading and podcast vuewing. Your info is SOoo good and compregensive that i think im going to use your podcasts to review and strengthen what uve learned. It has taken years at understanding dynamics to start understanding and to begin healing. Thank God, I'm feeling better and more myself and want to thank you for your part in this sad and difficult process. Im in a very rural area so finding GOOD professional help is next to impossible. You provide an invaluable service. THANK YOU for your part!
This is one of the best talks on this topic I've heard yet and I've been listening for about 2 years now to a number of different speakers, having experienced a relationship with a person that would score extremely high in the dark triad and is the covert narcissist type. This talk made me feel like I wish we were sitting at a table with coffee. Just discussing this. She got through to a lot of people in ways they'll understand and you've helped a lot so thank you. 😊
This is a very special channel. I’m so grateful I subscribed two years ago. Love this duo.
The idea that there’s something that feels “fuzzy” about them is excellent. I’ve experienced that many times, but I didn’t have a term for it. Thank you Forrest!
Wish I knew this 5 years ago. I didn’t even realize my own father was a malignant narcissist and I have a masters in psychology. We didn’t discuss this or even talk about this 13 years ago in grad school. I ended up being fooled by a covert narcissistic person. We share a child and it’s been one of the worst experiences ( besides my own father). I’ve met about 4 narcissists in my life. It’s hard to tell.
Your entire field of study caters to these types IMHO.
@@bloodstripeleatherneck1941 I won’t even bother to understand what you mean. ..
Stay strong, God's guidance 🙏 is there for us, heal and release.
@@kimparke6653 thank you!!! 🙏 my faith is 100% stronger. I truly know God is real.
@@jb-ze1yh no you don't. You can't. You're supposed to have faith.
I have followed Rick Hanson's work for some time. This podcast has the best information I have ever found on this topic. It really clarified what I'm dealing with, giving concrete info to help navigate these unfortunate situations.
Thank you both.
The Sociopath Next Door is a great book. I think the memoir Dr. Hanson was referring to is Confessions of a Sociopath.
Deep gratitude for this episode. What came up for me as I listened was sadness (that I didn't know what this was for so long) and joy (that I feel better equipped to handle it). It is through your podcast, my own resilience, equanimity, therapy and solid friends/family that confirm I am not crazy and give me strength. A friend told me about your podcast years ago, it was truly a catalyst for my growth. Thank you 🙏💖
Excellent discussion.. great insights. At the end of the day, we're all just imperfect humans. Humility and appreciating one another as doing the best we can with what we have in each moment. It isn't easy being green, as my favorite wise Muppet Frog tells us! 😉🐸
The rapport between father and son is so heartwarming. Thanks for all of this practical information. Very validating. ❤️
My ears pricked up when I heard you talk about "regulating their behavior" when you're speaking of someone else. That's A red flag for me! Being a people-pleaser and codependent who would try to head off the potential conflict and anger that could be coming from the bully/ narcissist in my life -- trying to regulate their behavior -- as I'm in the midst of recovery (ACA) THAT is what I fight to *NOT* do.
"You cannot control other's behavior."
Also -- eggshell walking means you're being abused -- whether physically or emotionally.
The difference with a full on Sociopath is they learn to be good at these things and still not have any emotion behind them. They use it as a tool of control.
Thank you. I so appreciate Dr Hanson’s professional expertise combined with Forrest’s practical and thoughtful applications. This was very thorough for such a broad topic. I really appreciated it.
I’m grateful that you addressed the fact that some of us listening may have some of these traits. While I aspire to be a kind and considerate person, for a variety of reasons I seem to have become more and more self focused over the years, and notice things about myself (an inability to tolerate criticism, a tendency to give more than I take, to be somewhat transactional, or to be more unkind and reactive behind closed doors) that are kind of concerning. It’s so hard to make proactive changes rather than just getting bogged down in shame.
I can’t thank you enough for this video and your amazingly insightful and well articulated understanding of these personality traits. I have researched for years after I realized that these behaviors from others in my life were not acceptable and not “ normal “ and this video is so well explained about these behaviors and I feel heard. Instead of trying to explain these issues to others about what I have experienced, I will share this video and tell them this explains it all.
Rick I have " little things" too. "Not my puzzle to solve." " No judge, no grudge. " And yes, self differentiation. " I have a right to protect my own safety. "
This was amazingly brilliant, thank you!
Can you do a video on people who tend to be particularly vulnerable to narcissistic type people?
I believe these folks are experiencing codependency.
@@sindigoroygbiv5743 Could be karmic. Being targeted by a sociopathic type does not involve consent and could be consciously rejected, in which case the sociopathic type pushes further.
@@woodspritefulthis!!
Empaths
They're like a box of bee's beneath the surface. Whilst its true that none of us relish criticism those further along the spectrum of these personality issues really really can not withstand any push back or differs of opinions. They react with anger and pure rage. Thus there is no room for growth or improvements
Excellent content. As a woman who cared too much, I have had to learn healthy boundaries and also have learned the constant rejection is indeed God's protection. Civil court must have personality testing to determine custodial parents as parents who bully, create children who bully. This behaviors are enabled and causing trauma in public schools. It goes further than that because teachers pensions are heavily invested in pharmaceutical companies.
Excellent pod cast thank you ❤
There's more. There coming. You have the information and tools to stay protected. Stay vigilant with a balanced heart and opened 3rd eye. Desernment. That was a good-looking kid growing up and I got to tell you there was a lot of discrimination. Still to this day people assume things are easy for me. Remember we would have to walk in the person's shoes to really understand what they've gone through.
thank you for this conversation!
Would be interesting to see a guest who studies macro level societal psych...i find i have encountered alot more extremely self absorbed people in the workplace in the last 5 years...they genuinely dont care about consequences of their actions to others or the organization. Also in volunteering i do. Not diagnosed disorders but pretty extreme selfishness seems to be more socially acceptable currently. The Hyper individual culture and social media has helped to foster this....
Narcissism is the new normal… think Trump! About 49 per cent of our population is self centered
Concur….there’s a lot of talk about bullies in childhood, but many become the bullies at work later on….employees who think they can “fire” or exclude others they don’t like…sadistic bosses, dismissive, contemptuous, unethical…..the list goes on.
Have a look for Dina McMillan. She does this work, she is a social psychologist. Her TED talk unmasking the abuser is good.
Gentlemen, this was a really well balanced assessment on dealing with the dark triad and an offers very practical ways of managing yourself when managing them. Thank you.
Thanks for addressing this. It’s sometimes hard to tread the line between caution and paranoia with this type of thing…
i am studying congnitive, moral & faith development in graduate school this week. excellent and timely discussion for me. thanks guys!
love you guys, this one really helped me start to heal some wounds
From what I’ve read, the percentage of antisocial personality disorder in the general population is 3.6%. Then you’re looking at about 2% for narcissistic personality disorder. That’s over 5%, that’s a lot of troublemakers with full-blown personality disorders, so I wouldn’t minimize that. More than one in 25. That explains a lot about how things are.
Its hard to believe but there's a good percentage within the mental health profession and social work
He had zero tells…
ZERO.
In hindsight, only a few things stand out.
With knowledge… I see it.
Covert narcissist with sociopathic tendencies. A loving way to steal my life for 30 years.
His goddess. Completely manipulated & used me. Millions of lies. He was always right. Rarely said he was sorry. Soooo kind all the time. Loves children and animals.
He helped me heal from childhood pain. He “taught me” unconditional love. Only to rip me to shreds. 4 years of intense therapy. Neuro/Biofeedback, 8 ketamine treatments with a psychologist, weekly emdr. These people are dangerous.
Growing up being the baby, of a very large, strict protestent religious family, it was so chaotic, and in upheaval coupled with a narrative that developed where the elder sons & daughter were the golden children and the two youngest were the scapegoats and neglected and blamed & shamed..and then, when became adults; estranged. These attitudes were very toxic, and won't ever have a connection with them
Totally needed this video! Thank you Forrest and family/friends for your channel and your approach and content!
Thank you. There is wisdom here. Simple advice 😎
Very grateful for this intelligent and inclusive conversation about a hot subject
My medically diagnosed Sociopath brother is easier to deal with when I arm myself with knowledge of their behavior and I always remind myself that this is who he is and will act like a sociopath. Latest example is too funny, he approached me, I told him I was in a bad mood and it would be best if he left me alone for the moment. We went back and forth until he put his fistup and saiid "want to fight" in a "playful" manner- also known as gaslight me and I turned it around on him and said- " no brother I want to cry .. not fight" .. he literally cringed and proceeded to leave.. I yelled out - run brother run cuz you may have to care.... I felt so proud that I knew how to deal with him. I love knowing how to handle him better..... sociopaths hate when you cry or show emotions.
Yep. Add in a healthy dose of BPD and a soupcon of sadism, and that's my mom. Thanks for this episode, it's tied a lot of things together for me.
Compassion to you who describe your mom ❤️🩹. That sadistic streak is very real, they can hide it well and people with BPD are a quite diverse group- sometimes it feels like something akin to racism is how one’s comments about one’s lived experiences are received. Take care, breathe inwards and know your light is within you - was was, is and will always be there.
Thank you both for this content. Both of my parents were narcissists, my mother a covert one. My husband is deeply narcissistic, of course, and I can also have these tendencies. In fact, my default, I can now see, used to be narcissistic behaviour - as that was all I'd learned. It's taken a huge amount of work for me to be able to operate more healthily, but it's still a work in progress. In my experience with many narcissists (yay) these people are SO incredibly damaged and see themselves as victims and "in the right". They are insidious and Forrest's observation about covert narcs being dangerous in particular is I think, spot on.
"As you move up the social ladder you acquire status that shields you from the consequences of these actions" (quoting Forrest) BOOM, what an insight!
You guys are way to nice in describing these people.
Excellent! Insightful and instructive. Thank you!
Often in the legal profession
Yep.
@@markartist8646 yep, where one can control the body through expertise or have extra powers and legal immunity (judges, cops, prosecutors)
A really good video, many thanks to you both.
I wish I knew how to tune into my breathing. And put up that glass wall trick a few years ago. I am definitely going to try that.
Great topic. I wonder if its worth doing a deeper dive on work relationships from this triad perspective specifically - perhaps with a guest.
What goes on in some workplaces including clinical, social services, therapeutic and academic is deeply disturbing
I don’t know if I agree about the ‘labeling’ point made here. I find that 99 percent of people don’t think at all in terms of defining people as narcissistic or sociopathic. I think that’s why and how those on the triad get away with doing so much harm. We have never been taught about it. We aren’t socially conscious of it, and this lack of awareness can put us in the wrong relationships again and again, with these people. Who harm us. As well, these people get themselves in positions of power, and then we are underneath them and having to try to reason with them, and they are unreasonable at their core.
Here's something to mull over too:
It's a little shady to me to say narcissists "like" being what they are when they're very likely never experienced anything else.
Back in the day I had a sponsor who would always say "Alcoholics loooove chaos!", and I disagree.
Alcoholics know chaos.
Can you imagine being so confined and tight mentally that you would say, "Oatmeal is my favourite, and I'm never trying anything else."?
Screw ice cream, broccoli, bagels, lentils, shrimp, chocolate, lemonade...
I just think it is quite imperative to always cast judgment and labels with a good dose of compassion.
We would never shame someone who is colour blind for not being able to just see the colour red as we do.
I can see what you’re saying because I see for example that two of my children were so brainwashed by their psychopath father that they actually believed that his behavior and lifestyle was “ normal “ , so they became as he was. I feel like for my two children it was like Stockholm syndrome situation with their father. Also for myself growing up in a toxic home watching my father be abusive to my mother, I assumed this behavior was normal and acceptable all throughout my early adulthood, until my second marriage was so traumatic and my husband was so abusive and I went to therapy and realized that this wasn’t okay, wasn’t “normal”and I didn’t have to endure it.
I will add that I don’t believe this viewpoint excuses their behaviors and I think at some point they know they are toxic.
Boundaries yes. But much unmentioned is the other side of those, which is asking ‘specific requests’ as of expressing needs, so you know where you are at with this person.
Often the ones who are choosing to be with such people have not much trained their ‘needs muscle’.
I experienced something really off to say the least in a clinical setting.. it looks like bullying where the team have all joined in - mobbing etc. However my most disturbing experience is my strong sense that someone in the background has psychopathic traits.
There is a very high density of people working in the mental health field here in the UK of toxic personality types , it's a Ideal opportunity for them when dealing with vulnerable people,they have a captive audience "narcissistic supply"&get paid very well.Also they are protected because people are more likely to believe the MH worker than the client, there's a lot research going on in this area right now.
I noticed this when l worked on mental health It seems to be an area that attracts a certain type
@@Ann-eb8dp yes absolutely, these predictors are attracted to positions of power, that's why I don't agree with Forest Hansons father on this occasion about is comments on psychotherapists near beginning of the video.There's plenty with all the fancy credentials that manage to slip the net, at best some of them are very unresolved,they haven't dealt with their own issues &go in to these proffesions in a bid to bypass there unresolved conflicts.Daniel McKellar covers this very well in is videos,ex psychotherapist,why he withdrew from the field.
That’s scary
antisocial personality disorder is 4% of the population according to the DSM five. I don’t know where you’re getting your statistics, narcissism is also more than one percent! in the family I grew up in, two out of five are diagnosed as antisocial personality disorder. And it’s not mild!!! They do damage everywhere they go. This makes me wonder if you’re a bit naïve, or if you’ve just been fortunate to not encounter people like this, because they are everywhere, if you know what to look for.
Hi, do you have references for this research that you have noted please.
If not the full paper article, then just the names of the researchers or the research group . Thanks.
Glad to be here... Thank you. You mean like the 45th who is a full blown narcissist ...
Like, the NPD poster child.
@@leahboydmathisNo! He has prevalent Narc traits but not necessarily NPD. We should refrain from diagnosing without a license!
@@barbaraguthrie5107 he obviously has NPD, who are you kidding?
All politicians are narcissists get your head out of your a$$
@@barbaraguthrie5107 Do have a license. :)
The elephant in the room is that some people are born this way . . .
You think? Ive wondered about this one forever! Nature? Nuture? Its hard to gather up a bunch of people with NPD to study..
28:33 That was so wholesome
Oh my gosh that is so true.
Narcissist and psychopath and sociopath don’t go for treatment. The statistic is much higher than one or 2%.
As I mentioned on another comment, this is simply not how we find those estimates. People who do research in the field are aware that people with full NPD are unlikely to opt-in to treatment.
@@ForrestHansonwrong
@@staciacrick3373 maybe it’s higher because the economic and legal system are themselves sociopathic
Wealth creates a bubble of protection which can lead to dehumanization of the other human who is less privileged. Not surprising that the quote “There but for the grace of God go I” A judge is privileged with a moral imperative to blind justice they may or may not have the moral integrity to uphold
Would you do something on sadistic people? That’s rarely addressed by anyone. There used to be a sadistic personality disorder category. It’s not in the DSM anymore, but I grew up with someone that fits it perfectly. I had a parent like that, and they can do a tremendous amount of damage. The malevolence and pleasure in harming others is something to behold.
I wish they talked more about this in rebalance to family systems.
Ran into a few university profs that fit the description !!
Thank you for highlighting that a real diagnosis is rare. Everyone seems to be a narcissist nowadays and I've wondered if it's really appropriate to throw that label around so much.
@@kleinereverie8763 whatever brings people, to therapy , healing, awareness and safety is more important than throwing around a label.. who cares how people define it? This whole statement takes away from the damaging impact of a narcissistic person. Giving the Perp more grace than the victim is a form. Smh 🤦♀️
@@OswaldfiveoHave to agree! Never helpful to call someone out on it, but if you ask 300 people if their Narc had a diagnosis I'm gonna bet 300 of them did not. Narcissist expression is far more common than NPD & it lives in us all. The only narcissist we need to devote our attention to is the one that lives in us. My experience of people constantly talking about narcissism & seeing it in others, are people that don't see it in their own behavior, infrequently or otherwise. There can be no true understanding of something we are not willing to see EVERYWHERE it presents. Not just in our naughty parents & ex's we can point at. 😏 Come on now.... Mirrors. We can look if we want to.
@@jb-ze1yheveryone deserves grace, even whoever you are defining as “the perp”. I believe anyone can be rehabilitated
@@DanielleAlcorn-jp7xb ok sure.
@@jb-ze1yh Well, if you watch the video, Forest actually says it does indeed matter if you throw around the label, not just for the other person, but for yourself too. Very extreme for you to label my curiosity (I wonder...) as taking away from the damage caused. Don't assume what other people have or haven't experienced in regards to narcissistic behaviour. That said, I could have guessed such a video topic would provoke strong responses.
Excellent discussion! But a crucial lack of discussion of neurodivergent and autism. For example, I talk so much but if someone talks to me I enjoy and listen. I have combined ADHD. So find it hard to focus. But I do try!
The best way I found to explain to my family and friends why I stayed in an abusive relationship for 13 was to describe it as choosing to live with a lion in a cage. At first it's kind of cool that this lion let's you hang out in their cage. You feel chosen and special for it. The lion is dangerous, but you can learn everything about this lion. You can learn what the lion's favourite foods are, when to feed them, what music to play, what words to say to soothe them. This doesn't always work, but it works most of the time. Slowly, the lion gets bored and what used to work, doesn't anymore. You start to scramble. This is now a bit of an embarrassing situation. You can't tell your friends that you can't go out that night because you're afraid the lion will have a tantrum and change the locks while you're out of the house. They'd think you're an idiot just for allowing yourself to be in this situation. Of course, they don't know that your finances, car key and so on, are not under your control any longer. The risk is a lot higher than anybody realises, even though they know the lion could eat you. The lion can also starve you. So you stay. Because after all, yes, this is not a good situation and you don't like this lion any more, but you do know the lion's favourite foods. And while you're in the cage with this lion, the other lions can't get you.
Oh luv. You're absolutely right. Im so sorry you had to go through hell. I hope its over now, and that you're mending .. the mending takes time.. love yourself through it ALL♥️
@@leahboydmathis Thank you for being so sweet
Fantastic
My ex husband started raging at our son when he was about 4. At first I didn't know what to do other than put myself in between my cowering child and this raging man who had become a horrifying stranger. I fought back. I defended my son. But somehow I was begged/coerced into having another pregnancy at around this time, and I thought maybe if I gave him another child he would be kinder. Wrong! He gradually became more and more cruel to my son--contempt was his go to treatment of my son. I was busy doing backbends trying to please my husband, a monster from raging at us. He said a second child is what he really wanted.
I kept trying different things to make him be "nice" and stop being so cruel. I was suddenly feeling like a trapped slave and my son & I were always walking on eggshells. Alas, after decades of abuse and difficulty my son took his life, despite therapy, my unconditional love, my constant advocacy for him... These dark triad types are very, very dangerous. A year before my son took his life, his father told him what a burden he was, and how because of his existence, he would never be able to retire. I watched my beautiful son crumple. I was enraged but my husband kept yelling and screaming at us with very tiny pupils and I feared for my life. It turns out I was right. I'm so angry at my abusive, selfish, contemptuous, raging, divisive triangulating for slowly killing my son and making him feel like a nothing.
As a city dweller, hard agree on the BMW drivers 😂
I know its trendy these days to pathoologize social dysfunction, but its not the direction id like to see you two join. Lets staty focused on how we can heal and be more accepting of our not yet perfect relational capacity.
I have a Master's Degree in Counseling and Psychology. It didn't take too long to recognize this pattern in my neighbor and her son but the most recent behaviors of the two was a bit chilling to me. I have discontinued all contact with them because it made me SO uncomfortable. The details are so many and too long to write. If it's possible to contact you in some other way, I would like to. If not, I pretty much know what to do. This was a very informative video and I'm happy that I found you both!
What they show depends on what your relation to them is. When you are on the 'outside' and there is something to gain from the relationship they can be quite friendly, cooperative etc. However when there is nothing to 'earn' or win, or when you cannot leave (such as in a marriage) they show their nasty behaviour.
And it can change in a split second when the doorbell rings.
I need examples of how people are misapplying “gaslighting”. It’s seems clear to me.
Thoughts about the evolutionary advantages of dark triad. Precursors might be warriors and hunters, both needed in many hunter-gatherer environments. The hunter would be impaired if they have too much empathy for the animal they kill. This happened in a context where all nature is sacred, so it’s solved by a prayer of thanks to the god of the deer, rabbit or other prey, but still requires a detachment from empathy for the life sacrificed for food. The warrior is similar, but now it requires a lack of empathy for another human.
I'm sure the dark triad personality is on a spectrum. It's been very hard learning how to communicate that I am the child of a mother on that spectrum. After almost 30 years of therapy I have heard her described as my "tormentor" more than once. I dissociated the first time when I was 5 because her psychological machinations were so demonic.
Wait, the book the sociopath next-door is not a memoir. I think he’s talking about a different book. The sociopath next-door is a pretty good book.
In case the narcissist is your ex, i can advise to communicate about the kids via email. Not by phone, not by whatsapp. Email allowed me to create the request or response and let it sit in the Concepts for a few days. And then i could strip the texts from emotion* and unnecessary comments. This not only helped me in the recovery, but it is good to have all agreements on paper.
Also emailing has the opportunity to forward/reply.the message. Useful for me when i reminded him to answer on a mail, so he could not say that he had not received that earlier mail.
*) the most emotional unnecesarry comment that i allowed myself was the following: "you may find it difficult that everything is 50/50 now". But that comment was useful as it silenced his many complaints about the splitting of the money.
Problem is that most narcissist never go seek help so that statistical number is not even close to accurate
As a note, prevalence rates aren't estimated solely based on who enters treatment.
@@ForrestHanson what is it based on?
@@serenalivinginvegas here's a good article on it: ourworldindata.org/how-do-researchers-study-the-prevalence-of-mental-illnesses
Researchers typically combine a variety of approaches. These kinds of numbers are always going to be a bit fuzzy and inaccurate, but they're our best guesses based on current information.
@@ForrestHansonThen with this population, it’s significantly inaccurate
@@staciacrick3373 what are you basing that on, other than vibes?
I'm licky as a technician that I can use my help desk ticket system to list what I did and when. It's gotten so bad that I also open a second ticket to write notes that they don't want recorded (boss said don't detail what you did as they say it made them feel "inept" - saying I turned it on and it worked could bring a person to feel bad, but I know it goes beyond - maybe they said it as they don't want it recorded that they are allowing their employee to do XYZ). In short, I'm lucky I get to limit things to ticket comments ONLY.
My brother who is 12 years older is one if these creatures. I havent seen him in years
Can these types of romantic relationships become addictive in the sense that cognitively, there is awareness, but emotionally and physically, the attraction overrides cognition and derails wise decisionmaking?
Absolutely!! This is because of ‘intermittent reinforcement’ - the person goes hot and cold on you, triggering the neurochemical reactions for addiction! “Hot and cold” pattern is one of the biggest signs of an emotional abuser overall (whether narcissist or not!)
@@ZoranaKnezevic-p8oI think it’s more about the brains predictive processing and its need for repulsion compulsion
Yes, it is possible. I am seeing it unfold right now. My friend and group mate (we study psychology together, getting our masters degree) got into a relationship with a sociopath. She got out, but still feels intensely drawn to him, understanding that it’s dangerous for her she stays away… but it is hard for her
Yes. ..And, its also even more complicated than that, but yes
Dead right in BMW drivers, lol, damn right!
Forrest, can you do an episode about Jungian therapy (I don’t know much about it) or the BITE model for authoritative control and ways to not fall for controlling tactics (my situations for authoritative control relate to childhood and a former working environment that was unhealthy). There was lots of bullying behavior and after a while it just wears down a person and makes them vulnerable for more controlling tactics.
Our recent episode on the shadow talks about Jung a bit, but we haven't talked with an expert about it yet. Maybe some day!
Thanks - I’ll check it out!
29:00 extremely important information here
My husband though not formally diagnosed, I believe to be in the high end of spectrum disorder. I could have it wrong and he is moderately narcissistic. I have found myself shrinking away into nothing because everything is about him. It is no longer pleasurable relationship after 20 years. Feel stuck at 65 years. He is 70. He has more income. Myself none so feel constrained to take action to not wilt away. I want to live again. I want to come back to the light.
Wondering how narcissist relates to traits of high functioning Asperger's?
Plz discuss the Dark Tetrad that includes sadism
Yes, no one ever does this. It’s extremely hard to find information on.
This might be a nuance, but I'll ask the question. If someone attempts to gaslight me, and I see right through it is it still called gaslighting?
So much of this is familiar. I dont know what to do.