I don’t think the movies did a good enough job showing legolas’ loyalty. He believed so much in Aragorn he left his princely duties & would follow Aragorn into battle anywhere, even refusing to leave middle earth until after Aragorn passed.
His father did tell him to go and find one of the northern rangers known as stryder. Right there Legolas knows exactly who he’s going to find. It’s a good scene in battle of the five armies
@@evenstar1608 I think what they are getting at is they don’t feel the movies showed the depth of their friendship enough, nor Legolas’ loyalty to Aragorn. They highlighted Legolas’ friendship with Gimli more. At least that’s how I took it 💚
@@ScrappyKitty15 Based on the book, there is not much said about Aragorn and Legolas friendship too. It is only in the Hobbit triology that they mentioned Strider so that there is a bridge between the 2 triologies. 🙄🙄
I do think Tolkien would have included Legolas in the Hobbit rewrite. Elves still seemed to loom large in his legendarium, description of Glorfindal in the The Lord of the Rings. He had Legolas in an advanced state of being in The Lord of the Rings. I can see him filling in the backstory in the Hobbit. IMHO
I wish there was more background story about Oropher. Including a more deep storyline between him and his son Thranduil. That last battle where they fought together really would have been an incredible story to read in and of itself.
Legolas said if he were to "meet an Ent he would indeed feel young again"... This makes me think in line with the remark about Rohan that Legolas was older than 500 years, probably close to a thousand.
Agree with you. Considering elven culture in which they can’t have children during war, my assumption is he was born early of Third Age (same as Elrond’s children) or at the latest during the watchful peace of Third Age.
Oropher and his line are Sindar. Oropher was close to King Thingol, maybe even a relative and lived in Doriath. He was appointed by the Silvans to be their king after the ruin of Beleriand.
First of all, Oropher's name was mentioned in Unfinished Tales, Appendix B, Sindarin Princes of Silvans along with Celeborn, and Thranduil. Among Elves, the title of prince was not given to anyone who had no ties to royal family. Celeborn was called a prince as he was Thingol's grandnephew. Why is Oropher called a prince? Because he was a prince before even going to Greenwood. We also know he didn’t govern a princedom in Doriath because Oropher lived in Menegroth and he wasn’t ruling anything. Certainly Tolkien would not have named Oropher and Thranduil in a segment about "Sindarin Princes" if they hadn't been real princes like Celeborn. And much like Celeborn, they "came from Doriath" so Oropher and Thranduil are Sindarin Princes of Doriath. Let's talk about Amdír/Malgalad and his son, Amroth too. Amdír was also called a "Sindarin Prince" and he too became a king of Silvans. He ruled over Lórinand (Lórien's early name). All those four proved to be great kings and they aided the Silvan elves: “Under the leadership of these they [silvan elves] became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom”. Amdír was considered a “wise” ruler. Amroth was also said to be a "valiant and wise" king. Oropher was a great king and possessed "wisdom" as Tolkien says. He foresaw the coming of Sauron and moved his people to north of Greenwood. Despite disliking Galadriel’s influence in Lorinand, he still stayed in touch with his kin in the Golden Wood. Thranduil protected his people in perilous times and without fancy rings, formed many relationships and alliances with men and dwarves in order to preserve his kingdom. He admired Thingol and followed his way. When Greenwood became Mirkwood, Thranduil asked the dwarves to aid him in the construction of his halls, which he modeled after Menegroth. There is an Enchanted River that kinda works like Melian Girdle. Thranduil initially seems to have been written as an unnamed Thingol after all. He also had the wisdom to predict Sauron’s coming: “But there was in Thranduil’s heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of Mordor and could not forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun, and though he knew that it was now broken and deserted and under the vigilance of the Kings of Men, fear spoke in his heart that it was not conquered for ever: it would arise again.” Legolas also showed kingly wisdom. He revitalized the realm of Ithilien and made it the fairest country in Middle-Earth and ruled over his colony there. So Amdír, Amroth, Oropher, Thranduil and Legolas all possess an inherent lordship and kingly wisdom. They all ran their dominions successfully. Being a ruler was not an easy job by any means; the art of kingship and ruling was not taught to mere nobodies in those days. Add that to the fact that in order be a Sindarin prince , they have to be related to the Sindarin monarch, King Thingol. I believe that is enough to signify a relation between Oropher's family and Thingol's. But if some people want more evidence, don't worry, there are even more hints. Perhaps we should see how Oropher was related to Thingol: Oropher definitely was not of Thingol's descendants nor his brother, Olwë's. Those family trees have been fully fleshed out. That leaves Thingol's other brother, Elmo. Elmo was Thingol's younger brother who stayed with him in Beleriand instead of heading to Valinor. His only role was to make Celeborn and Thingol related (due to a throwaway reference in The Silmarillion to Celeborn being "kinsman to Thingol”), Elmo was Celeborn's paternal grandfather. Celeborn was another character with a vague and overcomplex history. Tolkien wrote at least 3 versions of history for Celeborn. The interesting thing about Elmo is his descendants' names and their meanings: Galadhon: Elmo's son and Celeborn's father. Galadhon means "trees", plural form of galadh, a Sindarin word for tree. Galadhon had two sons: Celeborn and Galathil. Celeborn: his name means "Silver-Tree". "Cele" means silver and "orn" means tree. Celeborn was also the Sindarin name of the silver tree of Tol Eressëa. Keep in mind that galadh and orn are not synonymous. A galadh was more thick, dense and branching than an orn. Birch, ash and oak are of the orn kind. Orn also appears in Mallorn, the golden trees of Lorien. Galathil: It seems to come from the name Galathilion, which was the Sindarin name for White Tree of Tirion. It could also mean "silver-tree” or “shining-tree”. The elements are galadh + thil (silver sheen) Nimloth: Daughter of Galathil, wife of Dior and princess of Doriath. Her name means "White blossom". See the pattern? Elmo's descendants all have tree names. It is not a coincidence. According to Unfinished Tales, "Celeborn's close kins had tree-names." That is pure Tolkien canon word for word. What does Oropher mean? Oropher: it means "high beech-tree". That name consists of oro (mountains, high) + fêr (beech-tree) Another tree-name! Thranduil: it means "vigorous spring" consists of tharan (vigorous) and duil (spring) It's a bit different but it still fits the pattern like Nimloth's name. Legolas: green-leaves. It is in fact the silvanized form of a Sindarin name Laegolas Since I brought them earlier, let’s have a look at Amdír/Malgalad and his son, Amroth as well. Amdír/Malgalad: Amdir without the long i means “hope" or “looking-up”, however its meaning is not clear when written with a long i which is the correct way of writing this elf’s name. Another name has been brought up for Amdír: Malgalad. Malgalad could mean "Golden-Tree", its elements could be: Mal (gold as can be seen in Mallorn) + galad (an outdated, Silvanized form of galadh). One of these names is a birth name, the other is most likely an epessë/nick-name. The name Amdír was used more often and it has an unclear meaning, so perhaps that one was the nickname. And Malgalad actually sounds like an Elvish birth name. Going by that Malgalad name, he was probably blond like his son. Amroth: it means "upclimber". It's been said in Unfinished Tales that Amroth was not the character's birth name but rather a nickname or epessë which he received because he was the first elf in Lórien to have come up with the high flets. He lived high up in the woods. When elves get nicknames, they are recognized by them in songs and legends, and perhaps by their family and friends too. Ereinion was always recognized by his epessë, Gil-galad. Artanis usually has been called Galadriel. Perhaps Amroth's real name was something related to the trees as well. So they all have tree names and they all happen to be called "Princes of Sindarin origins" (except Nimloth who was a princess). And again, kinsmen of Celeborn had tree-names. That is Tolkien's canon. And the names are a big deal in this legendarium as Tolkien had always put much emphasis on language. Going by all this, Celeborn and Oropher are most likely related by blood, thus Oropher and his family have a biological tie to Elu Thingol through Elmo. There does seem to be a closer relation between Amdír and Oropher. First Amdír/Malgalad deferred to Oropher in Battle of Dagorlad and trusted his judgement instead of Gil-galad’s. Why would he do that when they were both kings? Perhaps they are related and it also explains why Oropher was constantly in touch with Lorinand despite his distrust of Galadriel. Also Amroth and Thranduil share many similarities: both are Sindarin princes of Doriath origins who began ruling over Silvans after the deaths of their fathers in Dagorlad and they both have golden hair. The last one is a big deal because golden hair was mainly a trait of Vanyar and very rare among non-Vanyarin elves. Two Sindar with golden hair? Coincidence? Such relations explains why the ever cheerful Legolas feels oddly melancholic and emotional about Amroth’s tragic fate. So I found that professor Tolkien was inspired by his King Thingol and conceived to write a whole story of Prince Elmo’s clan like the story of Galadriel and Celeborn. But unfortunately, this work was unfinished with a lot of unedited notes and stories kept in the mind. Because it was supposed to be a new story, professor Tolkien didn’t gave us more information about this Elmo’s descendants.
I don't know why exactly, but I have a feeling that Legolas was significantly older than 500 years old by the time of LOTR. First of all was the comment he made about being significantly older than "you children" when referring to the rest of the Fellowship (minus Gandalf by that point - the next oldest would have been Gimli at 139 years of age by the time of their meeting at the Council of Elrond) and while that could also mean he was "only" 500 years old, there's also a comment about if he were to meet an Ent, he would feel young again. The other aspects are, his father is very, very old by the time of LOTR, having been born in the First Age and having lived with Elu Thingol in Doriath. That does not mean of course that Legolas was born back then and we do not know much about his mother, but I think it is more likely that Legolas was born when Thranduil was much younger than we see him in the Hobbit films, perhaps as far back as the Second Age or early Third Age. Since Legolas is not specifically mentioned as being a part of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men that Oropher his grandfather and Thranduil were a part of, it is likely that Legolas had not yet been born or perhaps was only a child when Thranduil ascended to the throne. Even if we take early Third Age as the time of Legolas' birth, that would still make him around three thousand years old by the time of LOTR. That, to me, would fit better with his statements about almost feeling young again if he met an Ent, etc. My final consideration is that after Aragorn's death, he and Gimli travelled over the Sea of Belegaer to the Undying Lands. While Galadriel had warned Legolas of the effect of hearing seagulls crying on the wind in terms of awakening the sea-longing of his race, the usual reason Elves went to the Undying Lands was weariness of their lives in Middle Earth. While it is possible that he emigrated at that point in time because Gimli was still alive, but presumably aged at around 262 years of age and time was starting to run out for his friend, it is also possible that he had finally wearied of Middle Earth and it was also time for him to depart. To me, this weariness would take a lot longer than 500 years (or even 623 years by then, if we consider that Aragorn died at 210 years of age, vs 87 in the LOTR books).
Except we know he was experiencing sea longing and that he stayed in ME until Aragorn passed. It seems to me that he chose to go West because he had already been struggling with sea longing for over 100 years, not because of his age. Plus we know for certain that many elves clearly much older stayed in ME without becoming weary of the world. I’ve always thought he was younger than most named elves because he had never been to Lothlorien even though he really wanted to see it and he had never seen the sea. or been near Fanghorn. He hasn’t traveled even as much as Aragorn.
@@Sullivanin Does the sea-longing mean that you need to sail over the sea though (to Aman), or does it mean you need to be close to the sea potentially on this side of Belegaer? All the Galadriel warning stated was that he would not know peace in the forests again. I took to mean as a Sindar Elf, the sea has a much greater hold on him than the Silvan Elves his father ruled over. I had assumed that the main reason Legolas hadn’t traveled far was that Thranduil’s kingdom was an insular one, a bit like medieval Japan.
@@sweeperboy in the song he sings about it he is clearly talking about sailing to Valinor. : To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying, The wind is blowing, and the white foam is flying. West, west away, the round sun is falling. Grey ship, grey ship, do you hear them calling. The voices of my people that have gone before me? I will leave, I will leave the woods that bore me; For our days are ending and our years failing. I will pass the wide waters lonely sailing. Long are the waves on the Last Shore falling, Sweet are the voices in the Lost Isle calling, In Eressea, in Elvenhome that no man can discover, Where the leaves fall not: land of my people for ever!’
@@sweeperboy Legolas has never been to Lórien before he travels there with the Fellowship. Therefore, we can assume that he was not with his grandfather’s people when they left Lórien for Northern Mirkwood. Before the Shadow of Dol Guldur fell on Mirkwood in TA 1000, Legolas’ people spent time amongst their Lórien neighbors.but when the Shadow fell, they “retreated before it as it spread ever northward until at last Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground.” So probably Legolas’ birth-date was after TA 1000 when the Kingdom of Northern Mirkwood was created. That makes him 2,000 years old at the very oldest and he could be considerably younger. Since elves are cautious about world conditions when having babies, I think he was probably born during the watchful peace making him between 600 and 1,000 years old. That makes him younger than Arwen.
@@Sullivanin That's interesting, I wasn't aware of Legolas' people staying with the Galadhrim of Lothlórien, as I thought Thranduil took them directly over the Forest River to the Halls at the foot of the Black Mountains. It was my understanding that this occurred when Sauron's spirit returned from the fall of Númenor towards the end of the Second Age (SA 3,319). The key point is Amon Lanc I believe had been abandoned for quite some time before Sauron finally moved in and turned it into Dol Goldur around TA 1,000 - so around 1,122 years. If the Woodland Realm people did indeed spend some time in Lórien prior to going to the North of Mirkwood, then it may have happened earlier than you thought and thus Legolas could be older by a few hundred years (although he could also be just as young as a few hundred years too, we just don't know because there isn't the important triangulation point of any details regarding his mother's life and death), up to the 3,000 year mark. I guess we will never know. Even 2,000 years though is quite a bit older than 500, going back to my original point.
Thank you. I don't recall any references to Thranduil, but there was a Legolas Greenleaf involved in the Fall of Gondolin story. Christopher Tolkien also hinted at a connection between the Legolas of The Lord of the Rings and Gondolin in his History of Middle Earth books. So Legolas has a MUCH longer history than this video covers.
@@leonardofaber5823 Still not sure I agree. Legolas Greenleaf would not be the first character to make it from the 1st to 3rd ages, or from Gondolin to the War of the Ring. Glorfindel was a key character in the fall of Gondolin and was one of Elrond's most trusted elves in the 2nd and 3rd ages. Gondolin had a mad mix of Noldorin and Sindarin elves drawn by Turgon to Gondolin.
@@danielhenegan5438 the problem with that is that we have texts from Tolkien supporting Glorfindel of Gondolin as the same from Rivendell; a reincarnated elf. Legolas is different: not only we have nothing connecting both Legolas, but we also know Rings' Legolas is son of Thranduil son of Oropher of Doriath. Both Oropher and Thranduil lived in Doriath and left for Lindon then to the eastern side of Misty Mountains. No draft connecting them to Gondolin, and no text saying the Sindar of Gondolin came from Doriath - which is unlikely, for no elf (save Beleg and Mablung) came to the wars after the Girdle of Melian was put to work. Plus the fact of Tolkien reusing names from non-canon drafts into canon texts; and from canon to canon was well. I know you and others may still have doubts, but we have more pointing to "different elves with same name" than otherwise.
@@danielhenegan5438 Oropher and Thranduil were from Doriath, ruled by Thingol, who had absolutely no use for the Noldor. Gondolin was a Noldor city founded by Turgon of the royal house of the Noldor. Given the bad state of relations between the Doriath and the Noldor it's highly unlikely Legolas of Gondolin was Sindar. There is also a reference in HOME (Book of Lost Tales II I think but I am not sure) to Legolas of Gondolin returning to Tol Eressëa at some point.
Just wanna say that I love the artwork in this video. Especially the illustration by Otis Frampton of Legolas and Gimli back to back all rad and badass. =D
I kinda agree with your opinion of Legolas love life. I do prefer to imagine him having a love life. Not as drama as shown in the hobbit though, more to the wive (or his love life) doesn’t mentioned coz it’s not necessary to the story in LOTR. We knew some elves character in first age get similar treatment, nothing mentioned about their love life coz it’s basically not related in the story.
Reading LotR back in the 80s, I gave a passing interest to Legolas. Only the Skyrim, WoW Hunters, and Drizzit have really given me an aversion to this character.
I do buy Legolas and Aragon already knowing each other before the council of Elrond. When he stood up to Boromir during the meeting, I always saw that as him defending his friend. However like you I didn't like him going to find him straight after the battle of five armies. The worst type of fan service.
This is partially the problem I have with the films (Hobbit and LOTR) there is excessive simplification and reworking of the original narrative so it is understood by those that have not bothered reading any of Tolkien's work.
I agree. I also never liked the fact that Tom Bombadill never made it into the movies. But the movies have grown on me. I've seen them many times and the amount of research into Tolkien's writings was immense. The cinematography is extraordinary. The acting is superb on most counts. The soundtracks are tremendous. Overall, the depictions of geography and characters are so close to what I imagined when reading the written works that I'm blown away by how well the stories are portrayed.
@@danielhenegan5438 8ndeed, I am : in the words of my partner "...just unnecessarily extra..." some of the landscapes certainly fit, but the cut and paste attitude to characters and story focuses is what I am eternally saddened by.
I agree the Professor would have at least mentioned Legolas in a Hobbit revision, though how detailed the inclusion would have been is debatable. Would Legolas gone to Erebor or would he have stayed behind as regent while Thranduil led the relief party/army? There's a lot of room for speculation...still not crazy at the execution of the concept in the Hobbit adaptations
@@vixendoe2545 Why? He really didn't do anything other than become friends with Gimli. He shot some wolves, shot down a fell beast, and walked on top of the snow. Even Tolkien himself wrote that Legolas did the least of anyone in the fellowship. Considering the fellowship includes Pippin that's saying a lot. Legolas was just basically an afterthought character anyway. Tolkien was originally going to have Glorfindel travel with the fellowship but realized having a highly powerful reincarnated first age elf traveling with them would kind of not fit with "secrecy and stealth". Thus Legolas was "born" to take Glorfindel's spot.
I expect Tolkien would have included Legolas in The Hobbit, but I don't think he would have given him a major role - certainly not to the extent he was portrayed in the movies. So the inclusion of Legolas is not one of the (many) issues I have with the second and third Hobbit movies. Nor is the creation of Tauriel.
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
My most beloved Elf is Galadriel. She was said to be the most beautiful of the Elven women of Valinor, that's some kind of freaking beauty and she was said to be as powerful as Feanor, but wiser.
@@ScrappyKitty15 That is just fan fiction, no Hollywood fiction, a Tolkien fan wouldn't write it like this. I cannot see her after spending hundreds of years in Doriath with Melian and then Celeborn of the trees acting like that. She and Celeborn thought that the war against Morgoth was futile under the ban of the Valar. They stay out of the wars except Celeborn who stayed behind in Eregion after Galadriel went through Khazad Dum with Celebrian to what would become Lothlorien. She was not like this foolish actress jumping out of ships far out to sea. This is just typical Hollywood fare and calling it Tolkien based after getting the rights to a few pages of appendixes doesn't make it Tolkien. Could be Marvel for the way it's written.
Imagine if there were a TV series of Middle Earth called, Middle Earth: The First Age, Middle Earth: The Second Age, Middle Earth: The Third Age, and Middle Earth: The Fourth Age. That'd be dope although it'd take months and years.
Legolas is pretty ancient. I remember him saying to Tauriel about how his mother died @ Gundabad, that war took place in the first part of the second age. So our guy should've been born before this war
At the end of The Battle of the Five Armies movie, when Thranduil met Legolas after the war and Legolas said "I cannot go back", I assumed he said so since Tauriel was grief stricken at Kili's death and Legolas realised she may never love him in the same way. However, many other theorists say it was because he was disappointed in his father's actions. I still stick to my theory as it ties perfectly into the statement that Legolas abandoned romance for friendship since he had felt so strongly for a possible female Elf who did not reciprocate his feelings.
Why don’t we just accept that Legolas and gimli are together And they both feel attraction to men also why couldn’t Legolas have had man as a love interest before which could still play into the abandoned love go for friendship theory but would make it much more complex as it could discover the homophobia in a world created at that time
I believe Tolkien may well have intended to include Legolas, or at least hint at his presence, in the revised version of The Hobbit. Also, although there is, of course, no direct evidence of it, I have heard it theorized that Legolas' mother may have been from Lothlorien, that he may have been conceived when his father led the diminished Mirkwood troops there for a rest following the Last Alliance, and that his parents may not have been married. The evidence that's been offered for this is that Legolas refers to himself as a "kinsman here" in Lothlorien, the fact that his birth and mother are never recorded, the fact that Thranduil appears to have no queen, and the fact that the Silvan and Sindarin Elves of Mirkwood are said to have lived in a way "more natural" than their Noldorin counterparts. (Thus it's been argued that while for Noldorin Elves sexual intercourse equates marriage, it may not necessarily be the same for others.) That's not much potential proof, of course, and I'm not sure I would consider this theory fully legitimate, but I do think it's interesting enough to share. At the very least it might explain some things.
Legolas Greenleaf was born in the years of the Sun in the First Age. He was a Scout in Gondolin, which fell in FA 510. "Yet Idril spoke against this, and persuaded the lords that they trust not to the magic of that way that had aforetime shielded it from discovery: ‘for what magic stands if Gondolin be fallen?’ Nonetheless a large body of men and women sundered from Tuor and fared to Bad Uthwen, and there into the jaws of a monster who by the guile of Melko at Meglin’s rede sat at the outer issue that none came through. But the others, led by Legolas Greenleaf of the house of the Tree, who knew all that plain by day or by dark, and was night-sighted, made much speed over the vale for all their weariness, and halted only after a great march. Then was all the Earth spread with the grey light of that sad dawn which looked no more on the beauty of Gondolin; but the plain was full of mists - and that was a marvel, for no mist or fog came there ever before, and this perchance had to do with the doom of the fountain of the king. Again they rose, and covered by the vapours fared long past dawn in safety, till they were already too far away for any to descry them in those misty airs from the hill or from the ruined walls."
You made the same comment in Red Books' recent video on Elrond and Elros and he explained to you why you are wrong. Basically, Oropher and Thranduil were from Doriath, ruled by Thingol, who had absolutely no use for the Noldor. Gondolin was a Noldor city founded by Turgon of the royal house of the Noldor. Given the bad state of relations between the Doriath and the Noldor it's highly unlikely Legolas of Gondolin was Sindar. There is also a reference in HoME (Book of Lost Tales II) to Legolas of Gondolin returning to Tol Eressëa at some point. How does he end up in Mirkwood thousands of years later? Where were his grandfather and father during these times?
@@istari0 Thanks for your reply and for letting me know that my comment on the Red Book's video received replies. I've been back to look. Strangely, neither those replies nor yours in this video was actually notified to me by UA-cam: I'd always relied on that notification system. The Tol Eressëa connection is definitely problematic on multiple levels. I hadn't picked-up on that, and it may be fatal to the 'one Legolas' position. Apart from the difficulty of TA Legolas living on Tol Eressëa and failing to see the sea, it's difficult to explain how a Sindar elf, son and grandson of Sindar elves, found themselves on Tol Eressëa. That... is all most unfortunate. (^_-)
@@tsuchan He might have come with Glorfindel.. thats the only solution to that problem. (Note: Glorfindel returned back to ME, either before or after the Istari, last I know it was in about 1600TA, thus before the Istari)
An elf named Legolas was briefly mentioned in the fall of gondolin even though this is probably a different Legolas there is still a possibility that he is the same
Hypothetical questions and plot-lines are pointless. Too many people try to make Middle Earth an all-enclosed mythology, but it was never complete even in Tolkien's mind.
There's a setence in the fall of gondollin where's a elf called "Legolas Greenlief", i don't know if they are 2 diferent carachters but since we don't know the age and birthplace of Legolas of the third age, that makes us think
@@adamlombard3771 I would take it as canon. Especially since the story was reworked and integrated into the Annals of Beleriand, the Silmarillion, a prose version and a poem. It certainly wasn't a one-off legend. Tolkien spent an immense amount of time developing the story, which was central to the mythology. Elrond is a direct descendant of Turgon, the last king of Gondolin.
Legolas still would have the opportunity to marry in Valinor. Plus, Elrond himself did not marry for quite a while. But it is a nice theory of yours regarding Legolas and romance.
We could also assume that, knowing what happened at the war of the last alliance, had his son stay behind and watch over the woodland realm. Since Legolas seems unfamiliar with death during the lord of the rings he may not have been a part of the Battle of the five armies. I also think Legolas is closer to the 2000 year old number that people mention. Lots of children are born directly after war(in the real world) so we could also think that before Thranduil left or when he came back from the battle of the last alliance Legolas was concieved.
Hey Mellon, i know there isn't much information on Ecthelion(elf lord not Denethors father) if you could do a video about him it would definitely be awesome! He's my favorite because he can play a flute, then totally whoop some ass. The fact that orcs fear his name thousands of years later is quite remarkable.
I do think that Tolkien would have included Legolas in any rewrite of the Hobbit. And I do think that Legolas was hurt in love before LOTR. I say this because in "Morgoth's Ring" it is stated that Elves got married. Rarely did they remain single. But with two notables exceptions (a rabbit hole of epic proportions in Morgoth's Ring) Elves only married or fell in love once. So given this and Legolas' leaving Mirkwood a little bit after the beginning of the Fourth Age it is easy to surmise that Legolas had lost his one great romantic love some time way before the events of LOTR. Again a quality video, Jake!
Yet they rarely marry during times of strife, and Thranduil knew Sauron was defeated. (A Big fear of his, as he had seen the Darkness in Mordor) So he kept his gaurd up, wouldnt suprise me if thats the reason why Legolas wasnt married. .... Yet.
Legolas is the most badass elf for me. Not with magical power but just a fucking badass warrior and makes most of his work look fairly easy. Though given his fathers power it’s no surprise.
My guesses as to Legolas' age come down to two likely time frames. Since it is written that Elves usually have their children during times of peace my first guess would be in the Second Age sometime after Sauron's defeat in the War of Elves and Sauron when he retreated into the east for a time. Peace reigned until he made his way back. The other, more likely, would be in the first half of the Third Age following the War of the Last Alliance. Sauron was gone after Isildur cut off the Ring and wouldn't return for a long time. Once Thranduil got over the loss of his father he may have decided to start a family while the Woodland Realm was at its height in terms of size, encompassing nearly all of the forest, and before Amon Lach became Dol Guldur. One other possibility may be during the 450-plus year long Watchful Peace later in the Third Age when Sauron fled back East. Anyway fun stuff.
An issue I have with what they say of his age... Is that Legolas only stated that the red leaf's had fallen 500 in Mirkwood since then.. That don't mean he has witnessed it. Only that it has happened. Just like I can say "Since the human race appeared on Earth, 2 world wars there have been".. That don't mean I have been present during them. So the statement means very little to me when figuring out the age of the Elf..
I don't know about that Drizzit might be a competitor for most famous and beloved. He has much more page time lol Edit: I just thought about Link, so yeah
I’m listening to the fall of gondolin and Legolas is mentioned a few times as a guide so that means way older his day was from the first age and Elrond is the same so he’s around that same age
i agree that there most have been a female elf like tauriel in legolas life, having his heart broken can explain why he never sought happiness in love and marriage, but lived with the friendship of gimli as the only and true life companion.
There is an indication that Legolas was born between; after the time the dwarves left Khazad-Dum, T.A. 1980, and shortly before smaug came to Erebor, T.A. 2770. This is derived from the origin of Bilbo's mithril vest the books state "it was made for a young elf prince long before the quest for erebor" the Quest of Erebor was T.A. 2941. 171 years might not be "long before" to an elf, but to a dwarf or hobbit, maybe? And judging by the size it was made for a child elf, or as a shirt for an adult (this is obviously speculation). But the only other elven princes in the third age mentioned in Tolkien's work are Elrond's sons, Elladan and Elrohir. It can't have been made for either of them because they were born in the early Third Age, so unless there is some reason why the dwarves kept it from Elrond for more than 2500 years, this makes no sense. It also doesn't make sense for it to be kept from Thrandril for an extended period without good reason, the dwarves of Erebor traded with the elves of Mirkwood. This would indicate that Legolas was born nearer to the reign of Smaug than the abandonment of Khazad-Dum. Assuming elves age a little slower then men as children to adults a birth year of around T.A. 2750 is probably a close estimate. Making him only about 270 at the time of the lord of the rings. The only thing that discounts this would be unmentioned elven princes/sons of princes or Elrond having it made for one of the Dunedain princes in his care (the dwarves having been misinformed or presuming it being for an elf prince).
I was wondering are shadow of war and Mordor at all canon in anyway? I love lord of the rings but got a bit lost in the story of shadow of war and when it’s meant to be set
I think the relationship between Gimli and Legolas is not necessarily platonic but could very well be romantic but even if it is platonic we could consider that Legolas had a previous love story then we should consider that that previous love interest could be a man and they weren’t able to live their love because of the homophobia in this world and would make the story way more interesting and touching. Also Legolas could be aromantic which could also explain his disinterest in relationship
Very good point about Tauriel, and Legolas abandoning romance for friendship. I never considered that motivation for including her character. Although to be fair, some fans ship Legolas and Gimli pretty hard 😅
The shippers are so desperate for affirmation they cannot understand friendship as Tolkien presents it. Plus ruining treasures like Tolkiens works are part of the woke agenda.
@@ladyalaina42 people ship random characters in any fandom, and it's hardly "ruining" it. Try not to worry so much about what other people do and I promise you'll be much happier.
@@ladyalaina42 I think Tolkien would most likely disagree with you, based on his letters and words. He was very much anti-bigotry in all forms. And I promise you, LGBT people pose no more of a danger to children than straight people do. Less, in fact. Most of the folks who harm children are cisgender men.
@@JRBDWD haha I like your comment. But no there are really people that are genuinely happy without it. Like me, I'm grateful and happy to live life alone, being a hermit. Just me, my dog and the nature. I wouldn't change it for anything :)
Tolkien just wanted this story to be full of bromances, while the women are nothing but an afterthought if written about at all. He was probably secretly gay and didn't have the imagination or interest to write interesting female characters because women are boring to him.
I've always seen Legolas and Gimli as aromantic, we usually value friends more than people who do do feel romantic attraction :) it's often assumed we don't feel romantic attraction because of trauma or whatever, but it's just like any other romantic, sexual, or gender orientation
I don’t think the movies did a good enough job showing legolas’ loyalty. He believed so much in Aragorn he left his princely duties & would follow Aragorn into battle anywhere, even refusing to leave middle earth until after Aragorn passed.
His father did tell him to go and find one of the northern rangers known as stryder. Right there Legolas knows exactly who he’s going to find. It’s a good scene in battle of the five armies
How much loyalty do you want??? Legolas kept following Aragorn anywhere and everywhere. Is that not enough for you?
@@evenstar1608 I think what they are getting at is they don’t feel the movies showed the depth of their friendship enough, nor Legolas’ loyalty to Aragorn. They highlighted Legolas’ friendship with Gimli more. At least that’s how I took it 💚
@@ScrappyKitty15 Based on the book, there is not much said about Aragorn and Legolas friendship too. It is only in the Hobbit triology that they mentioned Strider so that there is a bridge between the 2 triologies. 🙄🙄
Thanks to orlando bloom's portrayal of the character. Legolas is my favourite character in the lord of the rings.
@@dasherif1271 love Legolas
I do think Tolkien would have included Legolas in the Hobbit rewrite. Elves still seemed to loom large in his legendarium, description of Glorfindal in the The Lord of the Rings. He had Legolas in an advanced state of being in The Lord of the Rings. I can see him filling in the backstory in the Hobbit. IMHO
I wish there was more background story about Oropher. Including a more deep storyline between him and his son Thranduil. That last battle where they fought together really would have been an incredible story to read in and of itself.
The only things really wrote were how his army was at the black marshes and they went forward before they were supposed too and mass loss of life
Marry me- dammit I'm already married.
Legolas said if he were to "meet an Ent he would indeed feel young again"... This makes me think in line with the remark about Rohan that Legolas was older than 500 years, probably close to a thousand.
My thoughts exactly
Agree with you. Considering elven culture in which they can’t have children during war, my assumption is he was born early of Third Age (same as Elrond’s children) or at the latest during the watchful peace of Third Age.
Legalas is old by human standards, but young by Elven standards
@Chrissy Zhu I thought he was like, 2753 or something. What does that translate into in human years?
@Chrissy Zhu this is a movie only fact. Legolas’ age is not revealed.
Oropher and his line are Sindar. Oropher was close to King Thingol, maybe even a relative and lived in Doriath. He was appointed by the Silvans to be their king after the ruin of Beleriand.
that's why their halls looks similar to Menegroth in Doriath
@@kotarojujo2737 exactly.
First of all, Oropher's name was mentioned in Unfinished Tales, Appendix B, Sindarin Princes of Silvans along with Celeborn, and Thranduil.
Among Elves, the title of prince was not given to anyone who had no ties to royal family. Celeborn was called a prince as he was Thingol's grandnephew. Why is Oropher called a prince? Because he was a prince before even going to Greenwood. We also know he didn’t govern a princedom in Doriath because Oropher lived in Menegroth and he wasn’t ruling anything.
Certainly Tolkien would not have named Oropher and Thranduil in a segment about "Sindarin Princes" if they hadn't been real princes like Celeborn. And much like Celeborn, they "came from Doriath" so Oropher and Thranduil are Sindarin Princes of Doriath.
Let's talk about Amdír/Malgalad and his son, Amroth too. Amdír was also called a "Sindarin Prince" and he too became a king of Silvans. He ruled over Lórinand (Lórien's early name).
All those four proved to be great kings and they aided the Silvan elves: “Under the leadership of these they [silvan elves] became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom”. Amdír was considered a “wise” ruler.
Amroth was also said to be a "valiant and wise" king.
Oropher was a great king and possessed "wisdom" as Tolkien says. He foresaw the coming of Sauron and moved his people to north of Greenwood. Despite disliking Galadriel’s influence in Lorinand, he still stayed in touch with his kin in the Golden Wood.
Thranduil protected his people in perilous times and without fancy rings, formed many relationships and alliances with men and dwarves in order to preserve his kingdom. He admired Thingol and followed his way. When Greenwood became Mirkwood, Thranduil asked the dwarves to aid him in the construction of his halls, which he modeled after Menegroth. There is an Enchanted River that kinda works like Melian Girdle. Thranduil initially seems to have been written as an unnamed Thingol after all. He also had the wisdom to predict Sauron’s coming:
“But there was in Thranduil’s heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of Mordor and could not forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun, and though he knew that it was now broken and deserted and under the vigilance of the Kings of Men, fear spoke in his heart that it was not conquered for ever: it would arise again.”
Legolas also showed kingly wisdom. He revitalized the realm of Ithilien and made it the fairest country in Middle-Earth and ruled over his colony there. So Amdír, Amroth, Oropher, Thranduil and Legolas all possess an inherent lordship and kingly wisdom. They all ran their dominions successfully. Being a ruler was not an easy job by any means; the art of kingship and ruling was not taught to mere nobodies in those days. Add that to the fact that in order be a Sindarin prince , they have to be related to the Sindarin monarch, King Thingol.
I believe that is enough to signify a relation between Oropher's family and Thingol's. But if some people want more evidence, don't worry, there are even more hints. Perhaps we should see how Oropher was related to Thingol:
Oropher definitely was not of Thingol's descendants nor his brother, Olwë's. Those family trees have been fully fleshed out. That leaves Thingol's other brother, Elmo. Elmo was Thingol's younger brother who stayed with him in Beleriand instead of heading to Valinor. His only role was to make Celeborn and Thingol related (due to a throwaway reference in The Silmarillion to Celeborn being "kinsman to Thingol”), Elmo was Celeborn's paternal grandfather. Celeborn was another character with a vague and overcomplex history. Tolkien wrote at least 3 versions of history for Celeborn.
The interesting thing about Elmo is his descendants' names and their meanings:
Galadhon: Elmo's son and Celeborn's father. Galadhon means "trees", plural form of galadh, a Sindarin word for tree.
Galadhon had two sons: Celeborn and Galathil.
Celeborn: his name means "Silver-Tree". "Cele" means silver and "orn" means tree. Celeborn was also the Sindarin name of the silver tree of Tol Eressëa.
Keep in mind that galadh and orn are not synonymous. A galadh was more thick, dense and branching than an orn. Birch, ash and oak are of the orn kind. Orn also appears in Mallorn, the golden trees of Lorien.
Galathil: It seems to come from the name Galathilion, which was the Sindarin name for White Tree of Tirion. It could also mean "silver-tree” or “shining-tree”. The elements are galadh + thil (silver sheen)
Nimloth: Daughter of Galathil, wife of Dior and princess of Doriath. Her name means "White blossom".
See the pattern? Elmo's descendants all have tree names. It is not a coincidence. According to Unfinished Tales, "Celeborn's close kins had tree-names." That is pure Tolkien canon word for word.
What does Oropher mean?
Oropher: it means "high beech-tree". That name consists of oro (mountains, high) + fêr (beech-tree)
Another tree-name!
Thranduil: it means "vigorous spring" consists of tharan (vigorous) and duil (spring)
It's a bit different but it still fits the pattern like Nimloth's name.
Legolas: green-leaves. It is in fact the silvanized form of a Sindarin name Laegolas
Since I brought them earlier, let’s have a look at Amdír/Malgalad and his son, Amroth as well.
Amdír/Malgalad: Amdir without the long i means “hope" or “looking-up”, however its meaning is not clear when written with a long i which is the correct way of writing this elf’s name. Another name has been brought up for Amdír: Malgalad. Malgalad could mean "Golden-Tree", its elements could be:
Mal (gold as can be seen in Mallorn) + galad (an outdated, Silvanized form of galadh). One of these names is a birth name, the other is most likely an epessë/nick-name. The name Amdír was used more often and it has an unclear meaning, so perhaps that one was the nickname. And Malgalad actually sounds like an Elvish birth name. Going by that Malgalad name, he was probably blond like his son.
Amroth: it means "upclimber". It's been said in Unfinished Tales that Amroth was not the character's birth name but rather a nickname or epessë which he received because he was the first elf in Lórien to have come up with the high flets. He lived high up in the woods. When elves get nicknames, they are recognized by them in songs and legends, and perhaps by their family and friends too. Ereinion was always recognized by his epessë, Gil-galad. Artanis usually has been called Galadriel. Perhaps Amroth's real name was something related to the trees as well.
So they all have tree names and they all happen to be called "Princes of Sindarin origins" (except Nimloth who was a princess). And again, kinsmen of Celeborn had tree-names. That is Tolkien's canon. And the names are a big deal in this legendarium as Tolkien had always put much emphasis on language. Going by all this, Celeborn and Oropher are most likely related by blood, thus Oropher and his family have a biological tie to Elu Thingol through Elmo.
There does seem to be a closer relation between Amdír and Oropher. First Amdír/Malgalad deferred to Oropher in Battle of Dagorlad and trusted his judgement instead of Gil-galad’s. Why would he do that when they were both kings? Perhaps they are related and it also explains why Oropher was constantly in touch with Lorinand despite his distrust of Galadriel.
Also Amroth and Thranduil share many similarities: both are Sindarin princes of Doriath origins who began ruling over Silvans after the deaths of their fathers in Dagorlad and they both have golden hair. The last one is a big deal because golden hair was mainly a trait of Vanyar and very rare among non-Vanyarin elves. Two Sindar with golden hair? Coincidence?
Such relations explains why the ever cheerful Legolas feels oddly melancholic and emotional about Amroth’s tragic fate.
So I found that professor Tolkien was inspired by his King Thingol and conceived to write a whole story of Prince Elmo’s clan like the story of Galadriel and Celeborn. But unfortunately, this work was unfinished with a lot of unedited notes and stories kept in the mind. Because it was supposed to be a new story, professor Tolkien didn’t gave us more information about this Elmo’s descendants.
@@chiooda7924
If true, 2 of the Three Hunters (Aragorn, Legolas) are distantly related to Elu Thingol, thus they are distant cousins.
@@chiooda7924 wow that explains a lot
Thranduil and Legolas weren't Silvan elves, they were Sindar elves.
I don't know why exactly, but I have a feeling that Legolas was significantly older than 500 years old by the time of LOTR. First of all was the comment he made about being significantly older than "you children" when referring to the rest of the Fellowship (minus Gandalf by that point - the next oldest would have been Gimli at 139 years of age by the time of their meeting at the Council of Elrond) and while that could also mean he was "only" 500 years old, there's also a comment about if he were to meet an Ent, he would feel young again.
The other aspects are, his father is very, very old by the time of LOTR, having been born in the First Age and having lived with Elu Thingol in Doriath. That does not mean of course that Legolas was born back then and we do not know much about his mother, but I think it is more likely that Legolas was born when Thranduil was much younger than we see him in the Hobbit films, perhaps as far back as the Second Age or early Third Age. Since Legolas is not specifically mentioned as being a part of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men that Oropher his grandfather and Thranduil were a part of, it is likely that Legolas had not yet been born or perhaps was only a child when Thranduil ascended to the throne. Even if we take early Third Age as the time of Legolas' birth, that would still make him around three thousand years old by the time of LOTR. That, to me, would fit better with his statements about almost feeling young again if he met an Ent, etc.
My final consideration is that after Aragorn's death, he and Gimli travelled over the Sea of Belegaer to the Undying Lands. While Galadriel had warned Legolas of the effect of hearing seagulls crying on the wind in terms of awakening the sea-longing of his race, the usual reason Elves went to the Undying Lands was weariness of their lives in Middle Earth. While it is possible that he emigrated at that point in time because Gimli was still alive, but presumably aged at around 262 years of age and time was starting to run out for his friend, it is also possible that he had finally wearied of Middle Earth and it was also time for him to depart. To me, this weariness would take a lot longer than 500 years (or even 623 years by then, if we consider that Aragorn died at 210 years of age, vs 87 in the LOTR books).
Except we know he was experiencing sea longing and that he stayed in ME until Aragorn passed. It seems to me that he chose to go West because he had already been struggling with sea longing for over 100 years, not because of his age. Plus we know for certain that many elves clearly much older stayed in ME without becoming weary of the world.
I’ve always thought he was younger than most named elves because he had never been to Lothlorien even though he really wanted to see it and he had never seen the sea. or been near Fanghorn. He hasn’t traveled even as much as Aragorn.
@@Sullivanin Does the sea-longing mean that you need to sail over the sea though (to Aman), or does it mean you need to be close to the sea potentially on this side of Belegaer? All the Galadriel warning stated was that he would not know peace in the forests again. I took to mean as a Sindar Elf, the sea has a much greater hold on him than the Silvan Elves his father ruled over.
I had assumed that the main reason Legolas hadn’t traveled far was that Thranduil’s kingdom was an insular one, a bit like medieval Japan.
@@sweeperboy in the song he sings about it he is clearly talking about sailing to Valinor. :
To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying,
The wind is blowing, and the white foam is flying.
West, west away, the round sun is falling.
Grey ship, grey ship, do you hear them calling.
The voices of my people that have gone before me?
I will leave, I will leave the woods that bore me;
For our days are ending and our years failing.
I will pass the wide waters lonely sailing.
Long are the waves on the Last Shore falling,
Sweet are the voices in the Lost Isle calling,
In Eressea, in Elvenhome that no man can discover,
Where the leaves fall not: land of my people for ever!’
@@sweeperboy Legolas has never been to Lórien before he travels there with the Fellowship. Therefore, we can assume that he was not with his grandfather’s people when they left Lórien for Northern Mirkwood. Before the Shadow of Dol Guldur fell on Mirkwood in TA 1000, Legolas’ people spent time amongst their Lórien neighbors.but
when the Shadow fell, they “retreated before it as it spread ever northward until at last Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground.” So probably Legolas’ birth-date was after TA 1000 when the Kingdom of Northern Mirkwood was created. That makes him 2,000 years old at the very oldest and he could be considerably younger. Since elves are cautious about world conditions when having babies, I think he was probably born during the watchful peace making him between 600 and 1,000 years old.
That makes him younger than Arwen.
@@Sullivanin That's interesting, I wasn't aware of Legolas' people staying with the Galadhrim of Lothlórien, as I thought Thranduil took them directly over the Forest River to the Halls at the foot of the Black Mountains. It was my understanding that this occurred when Sauron's spirit returned from the fall of Númenor towards the end of the Second Age (SA 3,319). The key point is Amon Lanc I believe had been abandoned for quite some time before Sauron finally moved in and turned it into Dol Goldur around TA 1,000 - so around 1,122 years.
If the Woodland Realm people did indeed spend some time in Lórien prior to going to the North of Mirkwood, then it may have happened earlier than you thought and thus Legolas could be older by a few hundred years (although he could also be just as young as a few hundred years too, we just don't know because there isn't the important triangulation point of any details regarding his mother's life and death), up to the 3,000 year mark.
I guess we will never know. Even 2,000 years though is quite a bit older than 500, going back to my original point.
I also think Legolas would have appeared in a rewritten Hobbit. It really seems like an obvious change he would have made to me.
Oropher was a Sindar elf from Beleriand originally, not one of Silvan he ended up ruling, it should be noted.
Thank you. I don't recall any references to Thranduil, but there was a Legolas Greenleaf involved in the Fall of Gondolin story. Christopher Tolkien also hinted at a connection between the Legolas of The Lord of the Rings and Gondolin in his History of Middle Earth books. So Legolas has a MUCH longer history than this video covers.
@@danielhenegan5438 different elves with same name.
@@leonardofaber5823 Still not sure I agree. Legolas Greenleaf would not be the first character to make it from the 1st to 3rd ages, or from Gondolin to the War of the Ring. Glorfindel was a key character in the fall of Gondolin and was one of Elrond's most trusted elves in the 2nd and 3rd ages. Gondolin had a mad mix of Noldorin and Sindarin elves drawn by Turgon to Gondolin.
@@danielhenegan5438 the problem with that is that we have texts from Tolkien supporting Glorfindel of Gondolin as the same from Rivendell; a reincarnated elf.
Legolas is different: not only we have nothing connecting both Legolas, but we also know Rings' Legolas is son of Thranduil son of Oropher of Doriath. Both Oropher and Thranduil lived in Doriath and left for Lindon then to the eastern side of Misty Mountains. No draft connecting them to Gondolin, and no text saying the Sindar of Gondolin came from Doriath - which is unlikely, for no elf (save Beleg and Mablung) came to the wars after the Girdle of Melian was put to work. Plus the fact of Tolkien reusing names from non-canon drafts into canon texts; and from canon to canon was well.
I know you and others may still have doubts, but we have more pointing to "different elves with same name" than otherwise.
@@danielhenegan5438 Oropher and Thranduil were from Doriath, ruled by Thingol, who had absolutely no use for the Noldor. Gondolin was a Noldor city founded by Turgon of the royal house of the Noldor. Given the bad state of relations between the Doriath and the Noldor it's highly unlikely Legolas of Gondolin was Sindar. There is also a reference in HOME (Book of Lost Tales II I think but I am not sure) to Legolas of Gondolin returning to Tol Eressëa at some point.
Including legolas in the events of the Hobbit is brilliant......the WAY they did it? Trainwreck
"The world's most FAMOUS and BELOVED ELF"❤❤❤
Eöl of course.
Dobby
With Hermey the Dentist a close second!
@@danthomas2146 I had forgotten about Hermey.
Just wanna say that I love the artwork in this video. Especially the illustration by Otis Frampton of Legolas and Gimli back to back all rad and badass. =D
I kinda agree with your opinion of Legolas love life. I do prefer to imagine him having a love life. Not as drama as shown in the hobbit though, more to the wive (or his love life) doesn’t mentioned coz it’s not necessary to the story in LOTR. We knew some elves character in first age get similar treatment, nothing mentioned about their love life coz it’s basically not related in the story.
Reading LotR back in the 80s, I gave a passing interest to Legolas. Only the Skyrim, WoW Hunters, and Drizzit have really given me an aversion to this character.
I do buy Legolas and Aragon already knowing each other before the council of Elrond. When he stood up to Boromir during the meeting, I always saw that as him defending his friend. However like you I didn't like him going to find him straight after the battle of five armies. The worst type of fan service.
This is partially the problem I have with the films (Hobbit and LOTR) there is excessive simplification and reworking of the original narrative so it is understood by those that have not bothered reading any of Tolkien's work.
I agree. I also never liked the fact that Tom Bombadill never made it into the movies. But the movies have grown on me. I've seen them many times and the amount of research into Tolkien's writings was immense. The cinematography is extraordinary. The acting is superb on most counts. The soundtracks are tremendous. Overall, the depictions of geography and characters are so close to what I imagined when reading the written works that I'm blown away by how well the stories are portrayed.
@@danielhenegan5438 8ndeed, I am : in the words of my partner "...just unnecessarily extra..." some of the landscapes certainly fit, but the cut and paste attitude to characters and story focuses is what I am eternally saddened by.
For some reason, I like the idea of Legolas being born at the same time the Wizards arrived in Middle-Earth in 1000 Third Age.
I agree the Professor would have at least mentioned Legolas in a Hobbit revision, though how detailed the inclusion would have been is debatable. Would Legolas gone to Erebor or would he have stayed behind as regent while Thranduil led the relief party/army? There's a lot of room for speculation...still not crazy at the execution of the concept in the Hobbit adaptations
Man I would have LOVED to hear a story on the deep friendship and adventures of Gimli and Legolas!
Next to farimir, Legolas is my favorite of tolkiens characters
yes yes everyone love the most fabulous elf out of all films
@@lamhuynh7201 He was pretty fabulous in the book, The Lord Of the Rings imho
@@vixendoe2545 Why? He really didn't do anything other than become friends with Gimli. He shot some wolves, shot down a fell beast, and walked on top of the snow. Even Tolkien himself wrote that Legolas did the least of anyone in the fellowship. Considering the fellowship includes Pippin that's saying a lot.
Legolas was just basically an afterthought character anyway. Tolkien was originally going to have Glorfindel travel with the fellowship but realized having a highly powerful reincarnated first age elf traveling with them would kind of not fit with "secrecy and stealth". Thus Legolas was "born" to take Glorfindel's spot.
@@waynepurcell6058 you say potato, I say potahtoe.
@@vixendoe2545 I'm from the Appalachian mountains, I say "tater" lol.
Legolas and the dwarf need there own movies 🍿🍿I'd be there 3rd row
I think it's very possible he was just secretly in love with Aragon, hence no love life
A God of War like LOTR co-op with Thranduil & Legolas would be cool.
I expect Tolkien would have included Legolas in The Hobbit, but I don't think he would have given him a major role - certainly not to the extent he was portrayed in the movies. So the inclusion of Legolas is not one of the (many) issues I have with the second and third Hobbit movies. Nor is the creation of Tauriel.
Well, I think Tolkien should figure out who Legolas' mother is and when he was born before he spends time weaving him into The Hobbit.
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
His "friend" Gimli, with whom he could not bear to be parted and brought with him to live forever.
yes... FREIND.... don't read anything into that
That kind of disgusting mentality created the new middle earth show,pathetic.
My most beloved Elf is Galadriel. She was said to be the most beautiful of the Elven women of Valinor, that's some kind of freaking beauty and she was said to be as powerful as Feanor, but wiser.
How do you feel about how she is portrayed in The Rings of Power? I love Galadriel too 💚
@@ScrappyKitty15 That is just fan fiction, no Hollywood fiction, a Tolkien fan wouldn't write it like this. I cannot see her after spending hundreds of years in Doriath with Melian and then Celeborn of the trees acting like that. She and Celeborn thought that the war against Morgoth was futile under the ban of the Valar. They stay out of the wars except Celeborn who stayed behind in Eregion after Galadriel went through Khazad Dum with Celebrian to what would become Lothlorien. She was not like this foolish actress jumping out of ships far out to sea. This is just typical Hollywood fare and calling it Tolkien based after getting the rights to a few pages of appendixes doesn't make it Tolkien. Could be Marvel for the way it's written.
I would like to see the spin-off movies about Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli's life before and after the events from LOTR
Imagine if there were a TV series of Middle Earth called, Middle Earth: The First Age, Middle Earth: The Second Age, Middle Earth: The Third Age, and Middle Earth: The Fourth Age. That'd be dope although it'd take months and years.
Thanks to j_wish producers and "wokeism" we cant have nice things.
cool vid Jake really enjoyed it yeah i thing he would of included legolas in the hobbit
Legolas is pretty ancient. I remember him saying to Tauriel about how his mother died @ Gundabad, that war took place in the first part of the second age. So our guy should've been born before this war
Nothing he tells Tauriel is canon since she isn't either.
At the end of The Battle of the Five Armies movie, when Thranduil met Legolas after the war and Legolas said "I cannot go back", I assumed he said so since Tauriel was grief stricken at Kili's death and Legolas realised she may never love him in the same way. However, many other theorists say it was because he was disappointed in his father's actions. I still stick to my theory as it ties perfectly into the statement that Legolas abandoned romance for friendship since he had felt so strongly for a possible female Elf who did not reciprocate his feelings.
Why don’t we just accept that Legolas and gimli are together And they both feel attraction to men also why couldn’t Legolas have had man as a love interest before which could still play into the abandoned love go for friendship theory but would make it much more complex as it could discover the homophobia in a world created at that time
I believe Tolkien may well have intended to include Legolas, or at least hint at his presence, in the revised version of The Hobbit.
Also, although there is, of course, no direct evidence of it, I have heard it theorized that Legolas' mother may have been from Lothlorien, that he may have been conceived when his father led the diminished Mirkwood troops there for a rest following the Last Alliance, and that his parents may not have been married. The evidence that's been offered for this is that Legolas refers to himself as a "kinsman here" in Lothlorien, the fact that his birth and mother are never recorded, the fact that Thranduil appears to have no queen, and the fact that the Silvan and Sindarin Elves of Mirkwood are said to have lived in a way "more natural" than their Noldorin counterparts. (Thus it's been argued that while for Noldorin Elves sexual intercourse equates marriage, it may not necessarily be the same for others.) That's not much potential proof, of course, and I'm not sure I would consider this theory fully legitimate, but I do think it's interesting enough to share. At the very least it might explain some things.
Legolas Greenleaf was born in the years of the Sun in the First Age.
He was a Scout in Gondolin, which fell in FA 510.
"Yet Idril spoke against this, and persuaded the lords that they trust not to the magic of that way that had aforetime shielded it from discovery: ‘for what magic stands if Gondolin be fallen?’ Nonetheless a large body of men and women sundered from Tuor and fared to Bad Uthwen, and there into the jaws of a monster who by the guile of Melko at Meglin’s rede sat at the outer issue that none came through. But the others, led by Legolas Greenleaf of the house of the Tree, who knew all that plain by day or by dark, and was night-sighted, made much speed over the vale for all their weariness, and halted only after a great march. Then was all the Earth spread with the grey light of that sad dawn which looked no more on the beauty of Gondolin; but the plain was full of mists - and that was a marvel, for no mist or fog came there ever before, and this perchance had to do with the doom of the fountain of the king. Again they rose, and covered by the vapours fared long past dawn in safety, till they were already too far away for any to descry them in those misty airs from the hill or from the ruined walls."
You made the same comment in Red Books' recent video on Elrond and Elros and he explained to you why you are wrong. Basically, Oropher and Thranduil were from Doriath, ruled by Thingol, who had absolutely no use for the Noldor. Gondolin was a Noldor city founded by Turgon of the royal house of the Noldor. Given the bad state of relations between the Doriath and the Noldor it's highly unlikely Legolas of Gondolin was Sindar. There is also a reference in HoME (Book of Lost Tales II) to Legolas of Gondolin returning to Tol Eressëa at some point. How does he end up in Mirkwood thousands of years later? Where were his grandfather and father during these times?
@@istari0 Thanks for your reply and for letting me know that my comment on the Red Book's video received replies. I've been back to look. Strangely, neither those replies nor yours in this video was actually notified to me by UA-cam: I'd always relied on that notification system.
The Tol Eressëa connection is definitely problematic on multiple levels. I hadn't picked-up on that, and it may be fatal to the 'one Legolas' position. Apart from the difficulty of TA Legolas living on Tol Eressëa and failing to see the sea, it's difficult to explain how a Sindar elf, son and grandson of Sindar elves, found themselves on Tol Eressëa.
That... is all most unfortunate. (^_-)
@@tsuchan He might have come with Glorfindel.. thats the only solution to that problem. (Note: Glorfindel returned back to ME, either before or after the Istari, last I know it was in about 1600TA, thus before the Istari)
You have my Bow!
❤
An elf named Legolas was briefly mentioned in the fall of gondolin even though this is probably a different Legolas there is still a possibility that he is the same
This would mean that he would be very old
Why would it be a different Legolas? You know this is fiction right?
Hypothetical questions and plot-lines are pointless. Too many people try to make Middle Earth an all-enclosed mythology, but it was never complete even in Tolkien's mind.
There's a setence in the fall of gondollin where's a elf called "Legolas Greenlief", i don't know if they are 2 diferent carachters but since we don't know the age and birthplace of Legolas of the third age, that makes us think
Is the fall of gondollin cannon? I don't think it's 100% Canon...
@@adamlombard3771 i think is a compedium put together by his son, at least as i read it
@@adamlombard3771 I would take it as canon. Especially since the story was reworked and integrated into the Annals of Beleriand, the Silmarillion, a prose version and a poem. It certainly wasn't a one-off legend. Tolkien spent an immense amount of time developing the story, which was central to the mythology. Elrond is a direct descendant of Turgon, the last king of Gondolin.
Different elves with the same name
@@adamlombard3771 precisely. Just some parts of the original "fall" can be seen as canon
Legolas still would have the opportunity to marry in Valinor. Plus, Elrond himself did not marry for quite a while. But it is a nice theory of yours regarding Legolas and romance.
We could also assume that, knowing what happened at the war of the last alliance, had his son stay behind and watch over the woodland realm. Since Legolas seems unfamiliar with death during the lord of the rings he may not have been a part of the Battle of the five armies. I also think Legolas is closer to the 2000 year old number that people mention. Lots of children are born directly after war(in the real world) so we could also think that before Thranduil left or when he came back from the battle of the last alliance Legolas was concieved.
Totally awesome! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK MELLON!
Thanks! Will do! :D
Hey Mellon, i know there isn't much information on Ecthelion(elf lord not Denethors father) if you could do a video about him it would definitely be awesome! He's my favorite because he can play a flute, then totally whoop some ass. The fact that orcs fear his name thousands of years later is quite remarkable.
I do think that Tolkien would have included Legolas in any rewrite of the Hobbit. And I do think that Legolas was hurt in love before LOTR. I say this because in "Morgoth's Ring" it is stated that Elves got married. Rarely did they remain single. But with two notables exceptions (a rabbit hole of epic proportions in Morgoth's Ring) Elves only married or fell in love once. So given this and Legolas' leaving Mirkwood a little bit after the beginning of the Fourth Age it is easy to surmise that Legolas had lost his one great romantic love some time way before the events of LOTR. Again a quality video, Jake!
Interesting point...
Well, actually, Finwe fell in love twice.
@@Enerdhil yes...one of the exceptions to the rule the comment was referring to...
Yet they rarely marry during times of strife, and Thranduil knew Sauron was defeated. (A Big fear of his, as he had seen the Darkness in Mordor) So he kept his gaurd up, wouldnt suprise me if thats the reason why Legolas wasnt married. .... Yet.
Legolas is the most badass elf for me. Not with magical power but just a fucking badass warrior and makes most of his work look fairly easy. Though given his fathers power it’s no surprise.
My guesses as to Legolas' age come down to two likely time frames. Since it is written that Elves usually have their children during times of peace my first guess would be in the Second Age sometime after Sauron's defeat in the War of Elves and Sauron when he retreated into the east for a time. Peace reigned until he made his way back.
The other, more likely, would be in the first half of the Third Age following the War of the Last Alliance. Sauron was gone after Isildur cut off the Ring and wouldn't return for a long time. Once Thranduil got over the loss of his father he may have decided to start a family while the Woodland Realm was at its height in terms of size, encompassing nearly all of the forest, and before Amon Lach became Dol Guldur.
One other possibility may be during the 450-plus year long Watchful Peace later in the Third Age when Sauron fled back East.
Anyway fun stuff.
I'd say he's closer to 1000 or more. But that's my opinion.
An issue I have with what they say of his age... Is that Legolas only stated that the red leaf's had fallen 500 in Mirkwood since then.. That don't mean he has witnessed it. Only that it has happened.
Just like I can say "Since the human race appeared on Earth, 2 world wars there have been".. That don't mean I have been present during them.
So the statement means very little to me when figuring out the age of the Elf..
Orophir and his progeny were sindarin elves, from doriath. Not Silvan elves. He built the stronghold in mirkwood based on his memories of doriath
Hope I look that good at 500.
Question here wasn’t Legolas mentioned in the fall of gondolin when tuor was making his escape true the mountains?
I don't know about that Drizzit might be a competitor for most famous and beloved. He has much more page time lol
Edit: I just thought about Link, so yeah
Great job on this vid
Yaay New video! Greetings from hungary!
Hello there! :)
I’m listening to the fall of gondolin and Legolas is mentioned a few times as a guide so that means way older his day was from the first age and Elrond is the same so he’s around that same age
We can't forget that Legolas witnessed the Fall of Gondolin, indeed he was mentioned several times as they wandered with Tuor.
i agree that there most have been a female elf like tauriel in legolas life, having his heart broken can explain why he never sought happiness in love and marriage, but lived with the friendship of gimli as the only and true life companion.
There is an indication that Legolas was born between; after the time the dwarves left Khazad-Dum, T.A. 1980, and shortly before smaug came to Erebor, T.A. 2770. This is derived from the origin of Bilbo's mithril vest the books state "it was made for a young elf prince long before the quest for erebor" the Quest of Erebor was T.A. 2941. 171 years might not be "long before" to an elf, but to a dwarf or hobbit, maybe? And judging by the size it was made for a child elf, or as a shirt for an adult (this is obviously speculation). But the only other elven princes in the third age mentioned in Tolkien's work are Elrond's sons, Elladan and Elrohir. It can't have been made for either of them because they were born in the early Third Age, so unless there is some reason why the dwarves kept it from Elrond for more than 2500 years, this makes no sense. It also doesn't make sense for it to be kept from Thrandril for an extended period without good reason, the dwarves of Erebor traded with the elves of Mirkwood. This would indicate that Legolas was born nearer to the reign of Smaug than the abandonment of Khazad-Dum. Assuming elves age a little slower then men as children to adults a birth year of around T.A. 2750 is probably a close estimate. Making him only about 270 at the time of the lord of the rings. The only thing that discounts this would be unmentioned elven princes/sons of princes or Elrond having it made for one of the Dunedain princes in his care (the dwarves having been misinformed or presuming it being for an elf prince).
Ye olde Legolas. My favorite character.
As I recall from an old trading card game that I had when I was a kid legolas is actually 6,000 years old at the time of the fellowship
I love your videos. I hope your new channel does just as well.
Yes, I think it highly possible that Legolas had a lover or wife but perhaps, she was tragically killed in the battle of five armies.
My memory might be wrong, but wasn't legolas mentioned in the fall of Gondolin?
Which would make him "first age old"...
Same name different dude.
🏹🌊🕊
Legolas was just on a gap year when Bilbo and co crashed the party.
Yay! 😀👍
:D :D
Can you do a video on the sons of elrond?
Video about the best middle-earth games soon?
I was wondering are shadow of war and Mordor at all canon in anyway? I love lord of the rings but got a bit lost in the story of shadow of war and when it’s meant to be set
No they arent. They can be headcanon if you want it.
This should be in Quenya 😎
I absolutely think Legolas would have made it into The Hobbit
I think the relationship between Gimli and Legolas is not necessarily platonic but could very well be romantic but even if it is platonic we could consider that Legolas had a previous love story then we should consider that that previous love interest could be a man and they weren’t able to live their love because of the homophobia in this world and would make the story way more interesting and touching. Also Legolas could be aromantic which could also explain his disinterest in relationship
Oh yea second comment haha love your videos
Thank you! :D
@@TheBrokenSword no no my good sirs thank you 😁
Some said Legolas is 3,000 years old.
I have a question!
There's a Legolas Greenleaf in The Fall of Gondolin, who was that?
Legolas and Gimli were Hedro-lifemates......possibly :)
What?
@@JRBDWD Meaning that neither married. We Know they were very good friends. They left to Valinor together. Maybe they were lovers
@@nevillesavage2012 OK idiot
According to the film Legolas kills 42 not 41 as you claim
I think so
We all know the story. Legolas was friendzoned by Tauriel and his dad told him to chill with the boys for a while. Namely Aragorn. 😏😂😒
Yeah but in reality she doesn’t actually exist anyway
Legolas is almost 3000 years old.
Only in film verse
I'll never understand what PJ was thinking when Thranduil told Legolas to seek out Aragorn. Aragorn at the time was 10....
So I guess Legolas is a babysitter now.
Video 47
Very good point about Tauriel, and Legolas abandoning romance for friendship. I never considered that motivation for including her character.
Although to be fair, some fans ship Legolas and Gimli pretty hard 😅
The shippers are so desperate for affirmation they cannot understand friendship as Tolkien presents it. Plus ruining treasures like Tolkiens works are part of the woke agenda.
@@ladyalaina42 people ship random characters in any fandom, and it's hardly "ruining" it. Try not to worry so much about what other people do and I promise you'll be much happier.
@@mikehowell2279 I disagree and I am intent on protecting classics and children.
@@ladyalaina42 I think Tolkien would most likely disagree with you, based on his letters and words. He was very much anti-bigotry in all forms. And I promise you, LGBT people pose no more of a danger to children than straight people do. Less, in fact. Most of the folks who harm children are cisgender men.
@@ladyalaina42 Very based and admirable Lady Alaina 👍
Why does someone need a love life? There's always this focus on it. Not everyone wants or need that in their lives. Like Legolas, perhaps.
Thats an excuse used by lonely,selfish or rejected people.
@@JRBDWD haha I like your comment. But no there are really people that are genuinely happy without it. Like me, I'm grateful and happy to live life alone, being a hermit. Just me, my dog and the nature. I wouldn't change it for anything :)
@@JRBDWD lmaooo I think you would pass out if you learned about asexual or aromantic people
@@runil5038 very respectable
@@countryhumansreuploads523 Why would i waste time reading about that autistic nonsense?
Bros before ho--
I read somewhere that Legolas HAS a wife called Maethoriel and that they had children. Is this fake or true.? Search up Maethoriel on the internet!
It’s probably very not true
Imagine Legolas showing Aragorn arwen and then Aragorn revealing Thranduil behind another banner, being so proud of his son
If Legolas and Gimli bicker like an old married couple, would that make Legolas the husband or wife?
Greetings! I wrote to you in the mail with a request for advertising and cooperation. I would be grateful if you answer.
Hi. We seen your email and watched your video. It looked cool but we didn't understand any of it and don't really get what's going on. Thanks anyway 👍
@@TheBrokenSword Please tell me, have you turned on subtitles?
@@TheBrokenSword this is important because the language of the video is Quenya)
@@TheBrokenSword Hope you take a look with subtitles and tell me what you've decided. I'll be waiting!
Why do you assume they weren’t romantic? They seemed like a nice couple
legolas 🌈 gimli
Some people wish......
I wouldn't care if they were 🌈, but this is the weirdest pairing ever!
Stop the autism,pls.
I think people are full of crap and the hobbit was perfected within Tolkiens life
Tolkien just wanted this story to be full of bromances, while the women are nothing but an afterthought if written about at all. He was probably secretly gay and didn't have the imagination or interest to write interesting female characters because women are boring to him.
I've always seen Legolas and Gimli as aromantic, we usually value friends more than people who do do feel romantic attraction :) it's often assumed we don't feel romantic attraction because of trauma or whatever, but it's just like any other romantic, sexual, or gender orientation
The woke mob: Legolas was gay!!!
I think in secret gimli and legolas were gay
Lol, gives up romance for friendship and was "bestfriends" with Gimli... y'all know they were lovers.
When they create a remake they will reintroduce Legolas and Gimli as a gay couple 😂
Don't give them any ideas lol. Seriously though I wouldn't be surprised if they went there. 🙄
Reeee..... let's all cancel the broken sword for thinking Legolas may have had another affiliation with a female elf lol 😆