I MESSED UP IN A GOOD WAY....... MAYBE! N54 ENGINE ASSEMBLY
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- Опубліковано 9 бер 2022
- I MESSED UP IN A GOOD WAY....... MAYBE! N54 ENGINE ASSEMBLY
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When ever I use a torque wrench I generally have some stress. I hope it works. Good luck buddy, looking forward to this engine firing up 👍🏻
Great Info, thanks for sharing your honest experience!
Thanks for the update!! Glad for some good news. Rebuilt an ls1 using eBay headstuds, but ended up using some leftover arp lubricant from my trucks head studs for good measure. Torqued perfectly!
Thanks for this update Andrew. Good luck. Dutch regards, Nico.
Thanks, you too!
Such a plot twist, but luckily for the good. Looking forward to see next videos and progress :)
Wouldn't be surprised if the ATF was causing a bit of hydraulic lock in the threads. Would explain why the bolts went tight then loose.
That's a really good observation. Perhaps the ones that were going loose he was using more ATF and because they're blind holes pressure was building up and then dropping. I don't know but I like it.
This has nothing to do with anything hydro locking. Engine oil also will not compress. If anything engine oil would do it sooner than ATF as it's much thicker. The ATF would make its way further up the threads than engine oil as the bolt started to compress the oil in the bottom of the hole. Anyway, my theory is the opposite, threads binding and ATF woking more like a cleaning agent than a lube. The bolts have a oil on them, either to work as a lube or stop them going rusty before being fitted. But the ATF definitely causes some problems.
@@ZeroTo60Tube Maybe the ATF drips down under the bolt where as the oil stays on the thread. ATF is used in gearboxes (derrr) both auto and manual as well as transfer cases. Should provide plenty of lube. If it makes you feel any better if i had ATF laying around i probably would have used it too.
certain ATF have really bizarre friction modifiers in them, that can probably cause really strange readings when torquing studs/bolts, this is my theory. Watching your build videos, you remind me of myself, has been quite entertaining! Well done and keep it coming, big fan over in eastern USA
Great point!
Fair play to you for doing all this work.
I'm going to be bald by the time this build is done. **
Someone on the Northstar V8 forums recently tried upgrading their stripped out M11x1.5mm head bolts with new M12x1.5mm head bolts from a 2001-2015 Duramax Diesel V8 engine. As he tried to torque his bigger head bolts to 60 ft*lb, they stripped out in the block, and he had to use the NS300L thread repair kit, which was successful for him
There's a shop in Palatine, IL that strictly uses these NS300L thread inserts with Northstars, and they haven't had any comebacks. I know you can get these inserts for an N54, but they cost around $340 US.
They actually have a blurb written from someone that pushed 1000 horsepower on an N54, with no issues with these thread inserts
I ran 38 psi on my stock bolts haha no issues with head lifting. Having said that I was being a knob with the shop car testing the limits of the stock engine, but I'm putting it back together with forged internals on the stock bolts too.
Ps. Loving this build progress. I'm excited to see what she can do!
Stock bolts stretch eventually at high boost
@@bimmerfab I'm sure they do
@@HassanEido1 why not just use headstuds and not worry about it ?
@@bimmerfab just scared it'll strip the block . So many horror stories. Never had an issue with the stock bolts yet
I had read about so many people stripping the block which is why I assumed so quickly that’s what this was. However can confirm the block in good condition will torque down to 155nm
Awesome news! We have all learned something on this. Ived used antiseiez on the Volvos and Toyotas that I've done heads on but they were iron blocks so I don't know if it would be an issue with an alloy block. The arp head studs on those engines call for anti seieze but I used it on stock head bolts too with no problem.
The guy i know who has done a heap of turbo BMW motors always just dips the bolts in engine oil. Very carelessly to be honest haha. I think the ATF is less of a lube than oil, then i was being cautious with the ATF not wanting to use too much. ATF working more like a cleaning agent than a lube i think.
@@ZeroTo60Tube and the friction modifiers in some atf may have contributed.
Whaaat!? What a roller coaster ride.
And I’ve learnt something 😀
Bit of that Penrite assembly lube on the bolts is the go.. I mean woooh head bolt upgrade hell yeah 😁🤘
Good content bro
ARP/Moly grease is the best to use for this, assembly lube is good, plain oil will do if you have nothing else, but I'd never use ATF. Remember to put some on both sides of the washer too. Those torque to yeild bolts feel freaking horrible the first time you do them up, and you generally can't reuse them unless you've measured the overall stretch to see if it is within the required parameters. Glad to hear the block isn't damaged though, and if you can upgrade to a slightly larger diameter bolt, that in theory should provide better clamping force and longer durability under boost than the standard ones. Will be interested to see what bolts you've sourced, and what the specs are for it.
And on that note, I'll go back to playing with my M20B25, cast iron block and standard bolts, knowing this will never be an issue 😂😂
I think next time i will invest in some moly grease. Definitely got my head around torquing head bolts this week. When we did the engine that's in the e92, it was such a "blah" step, bolts got dipped carelessly in engine oil and bam in the block and torqued up. I was worried about too much oil, and my thinking is the 2 that were a problem were a little too dry, they bound up early on the threads, then pushed through, but the second i felt it go loose i was thinking id stripped the block as so many people seem to do. ATF is much thinner than the engine oil i used on the test block. Anyway lesson learned. And lol at your cast iron perfection.
Well done mate
thanks man, what an interesting week! lets hope the solution actually works for the upgraded bolts
That is why bmw say to not use any type of lube, when you use atf you seal the threads not letting the air inside escape. That is why they stop because you have too much pressure inside the hole that force the bolt to stop. And yes I know that you can compress air.
Nah, not enough in there for that. Keep in mind water or normal oil also doesn’t compress. But it’s something to do with the thread sheering through the atf and binding. Using engine oil seems fine.
Yeah I unbolted the crank hub on my N54 by being a knob and setting my launch control to 5k. I had to replace the head because I bent all the valve I had a good cylinder head from a blowup motor. When I was Twerking my head it felt like three of my head bolt stripped but I just sent it and trusted the torque wrench. I made 19th psi on my first drive and never had any problems with cylinder head sealing
Twerk that head
Love the purple chair lol
ARP Lube should be identical to MoS2 Grease. Have both here and can´t even see or feel much difference between the fingers. Used the MoS2 on a lot of bolts and it works great.
Ahhhh that’s interesting figured it was something similar but good to know how similar. Next time.
Don't use the torque settings/ sequence for the bmw m11, but use the specs suggested for the current bolt you want to use, that would be the correct way to achieve the correct stretch
It’s a challenge. Need to stretch the bolt to its yield point, but the bolt is designed for cast iron block so it’s factory torque is crazy.
Glad it's not the disastrous news assumed from the last episode
I have spoken to so many mechanics since this and no one has ever had ATF do this. Lucky first i guess.
You guys are awesome
Awesome at learning anyway! haha
hope good news next vedio great work
Many many thanks
Just looked in Bentley manual and it doesn't suggest any lube for torquing and warns to have no oil or any liquid in the holes
I think a lot of people don’t realise the bolts are supplied oily.
Well some good news! I’ve done the same befor, torqued up a head ran engine up n still blowing bubbles, checked all head bolts n all lose, didn’t have copper grease so used engine oil on the bolts on my mk4 escort, soon learnt why they say not to use engine oil to talk bolts lol
Have a look at N54 racing channel he’s now built his engine n having issues 🙈
Interestingly in my testing the engine oil has been fine. Its a 10w50 fully syn, so fairly thick good oil mind you. I think the ATF is just too thin and under load the threads are breaking through. I wasnt using much atf. but my guess the ATF cleaned the pre oil off the bolts, then under load sheered and the bolt was direct on the thread in the head and bound up early in the torque sequence.
If you change the headbolts to a bigger diameter not originally intended for that engine how do you now recompute the required torque sequence and degrees to turn in order to get these new bolts to their particular yield point?
From dim knowledge I thought that unless a head bolt is to brought to its yield point then they may not retain their clamping pressure with the engines constant heat cycles.
Correct. However now after this week I am familiar with feeling when a bolt stretches and when it bites. I think I have a sequence I am happy with for these but it takes it an incredible amount of torque way more than people use for arp
What type of head gasket are you using? The OE mls gasket wouldn’t be my choice if you’re pushing 30+ psi.
OEM gasket can take over 1000hp without issues, no reason to go aftermaket, you will keep the car realibale if you can use oem parts, the more you use aftermaket parts, the more issues you will have, nothing is more tested than oem parts. If they can hold do not go aftermaket, keep things simple.
Gonna run an elring on this one now. However was planning to try a cheaper China one. I have elring in the e92 it’s been fine.
What you think bout the new cts turbos that came out??
They look good but so do all them. Need to see them on some motors and how they perform.
I have used all standarts bolts 11mm including 1and 6 cyl affter Arp pull tread cyl 6 and lift head after 1000km on full build engine.
Its amazing how many people i have heard who have had the ARPs pull. Did you have the longer ARP? I know there are 2 versions getting sold for N54s.
@@ZeroTo60Tube yes i think thats was wrong one ,do research and found some people claim its Chevy Arp studs the longer version
@@ImTheDud3 its a shame, i have heard of a few of even the longer ARPs pulling as well.
Thank god. I was biting my nails!
Will any oil in the thread bore not cause a hydrolock type of situation! Giving false torque readings?
It can if there is too much, but that wasn't the case. Less atf on the bolts than probabaly needed if anything
Long story short, the correct M11x1.5 ARP stud is called "ATP5.975-2B"
It is 151. 77 mm long, the original N54 head bolt is roughly 133 mm under the washer/head
+ about 16 mm for the washer and head, giving 149 mm total length.
The "2B" moniker at the end of the name tells me that this stud is made of a alloy ARP
calls ARP2000.
The maximum torque of a M11 ARP2000 stud is 122 Nm ( 90 ft/lbs ) when ARP assembly
lube is used. With regular engine oil the torque setting is different and I do not have these.
An important point is the the ARP M11 stud also doubles up as an 7/16-20" stud, so when
the M11x1.5 end is inserted into the N54 block, you will need 7/16-20" nuts and washers.
I have no idea what kit the ATP5.975-2B stud is used in.
For a N54B30 block you will need:
ARP assembly lube:
1 pc 100-9908
Studs ( M11x1.5 - 7/16-20" ):
10 pcs ATP5.975-2B studs
Nuts ( 7/16-20" ): Choose one of the following
1 pc 200-8635 nuts ( package with 10 nuts, 5/8" hex socket )
1 pc 300-8394 nuts ( package with 10 nuts, 9/16" 12pt socket )
Washers ( There are washers with 2 different outside diameters, choose one of the following )
1 pc 200-8532 ( package with 10 washers, 19.05 mm OD ) this will fit fine.
1 pc 200-8558 ( package with 10 washers, 22.23 mm OD ) this should fit, but check
washer outside diameter on an original N54 bolt to make certain.
To take this one step further is to drill and tap the M9x1.25 bolts to M11x1.5...........
You will need 4 studs, washer and nuts + drill out the 4 small holes in the head to 11.5 mm.
--------------------
And of course your mileage may vary, the reason I know about this stud, I was searching for
an upgraded stud to an VW VR6 R32 engine with M10x1.5 head bolts.
The VR6 R32 engine needs 7 pcs ATP5.975-2B studs and 13 pcs ATP4.650-2LB studs,
the later is one set for a BMW L6 S54 head stud kit, 201-4303. 😁
That is brilliant info. Thank you very much for this.
@@ZeroTo60Tube You are welcome. A little bit of knowledge can go a long way.....
You might find with ATF that the thread has actually stopped rotating in the head and you are twisting the bolt along its length. That’s the only explanation I have for why the torque would drop but the thread hadn’t stripped.
I think thats whats happened. The load on the threads is sheering through the ATF and then the bolt was binding.
@@ZeroTo60Tube and then once it stops the bolt is actually yielding but not in tension like it’s meant to but in torsion
If you’re looking for things to do in your spare time run another experiment where you keep tightening the bolt. It will ‘neck’, get smaller in diameter at one location before failing. Once it starts to neck the torque goes to zero because the area gets so small. I remember doing this in uni 30 years ago
@@paulsimpson8990 i might do that when i have some more energy lol. On the test block i wanted to see how hard it was to pull the threads and eventually gave up at that 155nm, it was too hard to hold the block in place on the floor and keep going.
Yay!
ATF? Who would have thought... I honestly thought that it would be ok. Good find mate. Maybe hydraulic lock between threads was created by it. Weird
Definitely not hydraulic, there was bugger all in there. I think its more so the the ATF being too thin to provide consistent lubrication.
@@ZeroTo60Tube true man, true.
Why are you using M12 bolts? I am looking and it seems like the OEM head bolts are M11? Just find some M11 bolts that are a bit longer that are 12.9 grade and use new 12,9 washers and torque them. That torque is plenty as long as its a MSL gasket on the head. I dont see the head lifting at all. I think the OEM bolts might even be 12.9
A 12mm bolt will be stronger and less likely to lift, so is preferable. Drilling the block for a deeper bolt would be better and I would be keen if I had a way to 100% on drilling straight. If I didn’t have so much waiting on this one I’d give it a try. But didn’t want to risk any more delays.
Completely unrelated but what are your thoughts on the n54 open deck?
They are fine up to 600whp then you start playing a waiting game.
ATF FLUID IS A HYDRAULIC FLUID
so you pretty much hydro-locking the bolt
Nah, not enough in there for that. Keep in mind water or normal oil also doesn’t compress. But it’s something to do with the thread sheering through the atf and binding
Don’t believe the head bolts should be installed with any form of lubricant. I do know in oil and gas if we specify a torque value it is based on no coating or lubricant if there is a coating or lubricant we have a conversion factor to adjust the torque value.
Bmw says to not use any type of lub
The bolts are coated with oil in the packet. And I was told to add more by a guy who’s done a lot of them. He just said make sure you have plenty of oil…. Lol
@@ZeroTo60Tube yeah might of been experiencing “hydro locking” between the thread pitches..that slowly bleed off..I think I would be too paranoid and have to start over again with a new set of head bolts.
@@ZeroTo60Tube there is no reason to use oil ib bolts that are angular torque, that is the reason why bmw only use 30nm, because 30nm is safe to torque without bind, absolute torque is always very crazy thing bcause bolts start to binds and cause false torque readings, that is why is angular torque, that way you know that is properly torqued.
@@fabini14 Absolutely, which is why i think all the BMW techs who have done so many of these use extra oil, it wont actually affect the torquing. Just makes it easier i guess, instead of the threads binding. Binding would also increase the chance of damaging the threads. I haven't spoken to one mechanic, engine builder, DIYer who doesn't use some sort of lube on head bolts or studs. Also the OEM bolts are slightly coated with something out of the packet, not sure if its an anti corrosion oil or lube or both. But that will be why the dealer install guide says not to lube, which will be stop techs putting too much oil in there causing another issue, and the oil on the bolts should be sufficient.
no cock block 😆
They all stretch, just depends if its elastic or plastic (permanent) stretch.
Did you know the main crank bolt plastic stretches about 1mm longer after use compared to brand new?
That atf thing man, so weird, I've learnt something thank you 😎
These OEM bolts that i have been messing with, they have stretched about 2mm longer then the one thats come out of it this engine. It is crazy how much they can stretch.
ATF IS HYDRAULIC FLUID.. so yeah..
Please explain what your thoughts are here, i think a lot of people don't understand what is going on. But in case i am missing something. This has nothing to do with anything hydro locking. Engine oil also will not compress. If anything engine oil would do it sooner than ATF as its much thicker. The ATF would make its way further up the threads than engine oil.
@@ZeroTo60Tube my post keeps getting deleted by UA-cam not sure why. Tried 3 times I'll DM you. I figured out the cause when fucking around building a customers motor a couple days ago. Uses to have this issue with ARP head studs. It's to do with the steel washer on aluminum head combination with oil.
I'll explain better in dm
@@vdkk1269 Man youtube comments spam filter is weird to say the least. I dont really check instagram, email will be the quickest thing i see.
How did the motor run after this ?
Was ok until I got it on the dyno. It lifted the head on the dyno. The loads it up properly (hub dyno) was fine on the street. Rolled 640whp on a mainline hub with the head lifting.
@@ZeroTo60Tube what do you think was the issue ?
@@alexgonzalez7395 a combination of not surfacing the head and block by machine and elring head gasket. I am 99% sure thats why it let go. I dont think it pulled the head bolts, however i have not dissasembled it yet.
@@ZeroTo60Tube cool my man.
Good you are not using stock head bolts if your going to be pushing 30+ PSI. I know a lot of builds and every built n54 that has stock head bolts will lift the head with 30+ PSI of boost. Use upgraded head bolts for sure. Check this video out, this guy explains why you need upgraded head bolts.
ua-cam.com/video/3Di5rzBO-Yc/v-deo.html
Our single turbo car was 35psi 18deg of timing and never lifted the head. Lasted a few years and is still the second fastest n54 down the 1/4. However i have heard of a lot of built motors lifting with ARPs, so it is a bit strange.
check out this video on tty bolts for an ls engine.. ua-cam.com/video/n4wHPj9YxjI/v-deo.html
Checking it out now, the link went to the spam filter on the comments.
After all the people i have spoken to last week and what i learnt from them, that video makes perfect sense. I know a few mechanics who build and blow motors (not BMW) but they reuse TTY bolts a few times with no issues(purely to save money). This is why i re-used the 9mm bolts with out too much worry. However it does bring the question, why do TTY bolts exist and why are they OEM only. Im starting to think its purely down to getting around the difference between each tech, each engine, each wrench etc. That plastic stretch point is so large, the OEMs can rely on a degree range to ensure bolt gets safely in to that range regardless of all the variables (you could do it with out a torque wrench). I think they just exist to get around the fact people dont do things properly in workshops/dealerships. It doesn't mean they are one use only although by saying they are does make the OEMs more money. Interesting none the less and it was a great way to test and show the points in which they work. Thanks for the link.
@@ZeroTo60Tube back in 2016ish i worked at a shop the owner was my uncles friend and they were in to racing spec e30. i actually assembled a few of the engines that ended up in those cars and they had me reuse the head bolts and never had issues. granted an m20 is a lot lower power wise vs an n54, they were bmw engines still.