| TRAGEDY OF TUSKYS | Late Joram Kamau started the supermarket 30 years ago [Part 1]

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  • Опубліковано 14 січ 2025

КОМЕНТАРІ • 239

  • @marthaauma7503
    @marthaauma7503 4 роки тому +139

    Someone once said, it takes years and decades to build up generational wealth, but it only takes one greedy family member to destroy it all.what a shame!

    • @mwanikimwaniki6801
      @mwanikimwaniki6801 4 роки тому +6

      Facts. Watoto wanaeza kumaliza

    • @praveenakhan4251
      @praveenakhan4251 Місяць тому

      They why you don't leave anything for your children you put it in a Living Trust for them like they way most smart people. Like the way Odinga's did for Fidel son and the way Moi did for his children. When property is in Trust it means they children and sell of mis manage it. They can just enjoy it and pass it on to the next generations. Because you appoint law firms or companies who manage trust and they follow what is in your Living Trust

  • @livsm1917
    @livsm1917 4 роки тому +44

    The problem with us Africans when we struggle when we were kids when we get wealth we spoil our kids we don’t teach them how and the important of keeping the wealth we just want them to inherit we should learn from Indians and generation wealth

  • @patrickstv2010
    @patrickstv2010 4 роки тому +69

    Wow! Stealing from themselves? They truly didn't deserve their father. So shameful.

    • @michaelodhiambo6696
      @michaelodhiambo6696 5 місяців тому

      two siblings stealing from what belongs to the family.

  • @jamesgathaiya6450
    @jamesgathaiya6450 4 роки тому +72

    You work so hard usiku na mchana to raise such big company alafu watoto wenye waliachiwa nita ngoma

    • @rachaelkinyua7453
      @rachaelkinyua7453 4 роки тому +2

      Very true....james nakuona tu .. still asking ama active commenters hulipwa kama other youtubers....u win🤣🤣🤣

    • @jamesgathaiya6450
      @jamesgathaiya6450 4 роки тому

      @@rachaelkinyua7453 😂😂😂😂nakuona ukipita pita huku uko ajy

    • @hellespont1
      @hellespont1 4 роки тому

      Ngoma piu!!

  • @joseky254
    @joseky254 4 роки тому +27

    Greed can bring down an empire within a minute, its sad indeed

  • @elsiewathiai7108
    @elsiewathiai7108 4 роки тому +70

    I so much admire how waihiga does his reports...wish I could be like him

  • @comickamaa
    @comickamaa 4 роки тому +19

    Waihiga Mwaura is something else!I watch this report over and over because of this G.O.A.T

    • @Gikash
      @Gikash 4 роки тому +5

      wacha jokes ,Just coz you recently started using the words GOAT doesn't mean you get to use it anyhowly Calling Waihiga the GOAT is an insult to the Investigative likes of Moha Ali, John Allan & Onkari

    • @twirrybird8039
      @twirrybird8039 4 роки тому

      That's their choice to call who they resonate with the G.O.A.T.

    • @benmichael4265
      @benmichael4265 2 роки тому

      @@Gikash Umesahau akina Jeff Koinange

  • @jasperetale6916
    @jasperetale6916 4 роки тому +30

    "an inheritance gained hastily at the beginning will not be blessed at the end" proverbs 20 :21.

    • @MilesReileigh
      @MilesReileigh 5 місяців тому

      That is not true.What of Nakumatt,was it gained hastily?

  • @emmaculategithara
    @emmaculategithara 4 роки тому +44

    I will miss furniture window shopping at Tuskys..

    • @kensimba7868
      @kensimba7868 4 роки тому +5

      Hehehe I've always done that at tuskys buruburu. Those furniture blowed my mind. Will miss this too

  • @registrationinnovation5497
    @registrationinnovation5497 4 роки тому +21

    What I learn from this is that A family business is successive when done in unity but when they separate,,,it falls

  • @janewangui3984
    @janewangui3984 4 роки тому +34

    The C.E.O knows something that the family doesn't know.

  • @lizziep5215
    @lizziep5215 4 роки тому +122

    Kenyans need to learn from this reporter that you can be heard with a mask correctly worn. You don’t need to hang it on your chin/neck just because you are talking!

    • @Girl_Maasai
      @Girl_Maasai 4 роки тому +35

      We even remove mask just to hear what someone is saying 🤗🤗🤗

    • @lizziep5215
      @lizziep5215 4 роки тому +4

      @@Girl_Maasai 😅😅.

    • @wambui4590
      @wambui4590 4 роки тому +2

      @@Girl_Maasai 😂😂😂

    • @osimano1
      @osimano1 4 роки тому +2

      Stfu

    • @ellahpraiser9714
      @ellahpraiser9714 4 роки тому +1

      Ooh My Goodness this Comment oooh😂😂😂

  • @jaihind4601
    @jaihind4601 4 роки тому +34

    Siblings rivalry and greed destroyed tuskys

  • @de-fibanter3359
    @de-fibanter3359 4 роки тому +21

    "The country's retail Silicon Valley: Nakuru County." I like it.❤

  • @oloem268
    @oloem268 4 роки тому +5

    I'm shocked, naivas is now the leading supermarket in Kenya? When I was there 10 years back , it was nakumatt followed by tuskys and now both of those have followed uchumi to the ground. In those days naivas was more of a poor people's shopping place, I hope they still are and I wish them prosperity.

  • @kwaru1
    @kwaru1 4 роки тому +14

    Brilliant investigative work by Citizen TV. Outstanding by Wahiga Mwaura.

  • @virginiawanjiru4500
    @virginiawanjiru4500 4 роки тому +10

    waeke vibandaski za hotdog zao msee😂😂❤️tutashukuru

  • @kagamedimaria4787
    @kagamedimaria4787 4 роки тому +29

    Better you,youre fighting for the wealth while others are fighting what to put on table

  • @pamelaimbaya510
    @pamelaimbaya510 4 роки тому +14

    I really hope to see Naivas stand in their place. It's my closest retail shop

  • @marabouk2598
    @marabouk2598 4 роки тому +47

    Does it really matter whether the company is operating or dead? The owners will still remain millionaires.

    • @thevineyard7149
      @thevineyard7149 4 роки тому +2

      True

    • @davidonyango596
      @davidonyango596 4 роки тому +24

      To students of entrepreneurship, it does!!
      You seem to miss the purpose of the exposé!

    • @marabouk2598
      @marabouk2598 4 роки тому +4

      @@davidonyango596 hehehe, such business models were never to last, they are obsolete whether the expose is there or not.

    • @MrMajani
      @MrMajani 4 роки тому +7

      ukweli. Wenye wanaumia ni suppliers na bankers. The supermarket owners have made their money

    • @mwanamuciare100
      @mwanamuciare100 4 роки тому +4

      Yes it matters alot, I have a brother who lost his job na ako na familia ndogo..

  • @jasperetale6916
    @jasperetale6916 4 роки тому +8

    "a friend loves at all times. And a brother is born for adversity. Proverbs 17:17.

  • @nickmachogu4199
    @nickmachogu4199 4 роки тому +12

    The other day, Tuskys was trying to rescue Nakumatt.

  • @bonfacewahome6468
    @bonfacewahome6468 4 роки тому +13

    Bad times create good men, good men create good times, good times create bad times.

  • @reservedartist1141
    @reservedartist1141 4 роки тому +14

    Father of 9 !!!! He should have for seen it. There is bound to be discord when you are rich and have many kids

  • @RK-xv1si
    @RK-xv1si 4 роки тому +4

    Greedy siblings without thinking about tomorrow!

  • @benmzuri
    @benmzuri 4 роки тому +10

    I think this is just a sign of the collapsing economy. More to come. We have wasted the last 10 years on Jubilee aka KANU nonsesense and now we are seeing the results...really hard times may be coming our way.

  • @mwafrika4
    @mwafrika4 4 роки тому +9

    This is why family business do not usually last more than three generations

    • @kim1570
      @kim1570 4 роки тому

      You mean, family businesses 'in Kenya'... because of the kienyeji way in which we run them.

  • @WanjiruMuya
    @WanjiruMuya 4 роки тому +25

    Did they get their nephew released from jail? There was a story from the Tuskys family in Nakuru at Inooro TV. Maybe the tears of that Widow is haunting them who knows😒

    • @sharlynnchingy2078
      @sharlynnchingy2078 4 роки тому +1

      Very true

    • @margaretmaina9613
      @margaretmaina9613 4 роки тому +1

      Ooh yer nakumbuka .karma

    • @TeacherNyoks5258
      @TeacherNyoks5258 4 роки тому +1

      apana huyu jamaa alikua kijana wa mtoi wa mwenye NAIVAS sio tuskys

    • @eddahwambui1306
      @eddahwambui1306 4 роки тому

      @@TeacherNyoks5258 that's the nephew of the tusky siblings

    • @TeacherNyoks5258
      @TeacherNyoks5258 4 роки тому

      @@eddahwambui1306 alikua nephew wa wenye naivas...c hio story iko you tube...njera ini citu na simon kibe

  • @mwenyejii
    @mwenyejii 4 роки тому +37

    Sibling doesn't mean child of. It means brother or sister. Kiswahili equivalent is ndugu

    • @kingvinmo130
      @kingvinmo130 4 роки тому

      He is right he means the siblings like the whole of them..bro jua kizungu mzuri

    • @mwenyejii
      @mwenyejii 4 роки тому +1

      @@kingvinmo130 sibling to mean child of? Siblings of Joram Kamau cannot mean children of Joram Kamau. It means brothers & sisters of Joram! From 9.55

  • @anilshah7290
    @anilshah7290 4 роки тому +1

    The only person who managed to run a successful Supermarket in Kenya was a man called Mr Suresh Shah. He was given responsibility to run Uchumi Supermarkets when it was in debt back in the 1970’s. He turned around the company and made it into an icon during his reign but after he left it is history. Hard work and talented and last thing luck. To run a successful business any where is focus and hard work and above all trust by all the stack holders including customers, staffs, suppliers, and financiers.
    Good luck comes at the bottom.

  • @salimmachila5736
    @salimmachila5736 4 роки тому +10

    In short: corruption within killed the business

  • @nikkicole8587
    @nikkicole8587 4 роки тому +15

    Na venye I had lots of tuskys bonus points 😭😂😂😂machoos

    • @joanmulindi117
      @joanmulindi117 4 роки тому

      Someone helped out by advising me to make use of the points....

  • @ngurejohn7452
    @ngurejohn7452 4 роки тому +12

    Sad. My first official employer.

  • @evemaina7718
    @evemaina7718 4 роки тому +6

    Citizen needs to get the views of all the other 6 siblings..

  • @erickojoy
    @erickojoy 4 роки тому +3

    Kindly bring part 2 and expose the 2 MAIN PEOPLE BEHIND THIS FALL AND EVERYTHING THAT THEY OWN, DIRECTOR Stephen MUKUHA AND CEO dan GITHUA, they should be very ashamed

  • @MrGeorgeqs
    @MrGeorgeqs 4 роки тому +6

    Hawa watoto ni ng'ombe sana

  • @mumenguvuze2093
    @mumenguvuze2093 4 роки тому +2

    The fish rot from the head, The employees followed their bosses art of stealing. I once went to Nakumatt Kisumu to buy a fridge , The attendant was so eager to sell me a more expensive LG fridge but with the price of the little one I had chosen only if I added some 5 k for his pocket. The expensive one was going for 28k and I wanted the 16k one. I refused and tried to make him understand , that he is stealing from his employer and when the company goes down, he will be jobless. All I got was , "wewe si mjanja . that was 2014 , I went to tuskys in 2017 , still in Kisumu and this time nilikuwa na buy mattress , Same carrot was dangled to me and I repeated the same , this time the guy was like HATA HII NI KUANGUKA INAANGUKA , I felt defeated .

  • @hakeemahmed2874
    @hakeemahmed2874 4 роки тому +8

    And some people are blaming the Govt! Blame those greedy siblings

  • @djharry254harryson6
    @djharry254harryson6 4 роки тому +14

    i hope Naivas learn from them.....

    • @alexidage2647
      @alexidage2647 4 роки тому +2

      they are related the owners of naivas are cousins to tuskeys my dad used to work with them as an engineer after pulling out in 2014...

    • @AnnKanini
      @AnnKanini 4 роки тому

      @@alexidage2647 why cant the cousins take over Tuskys

    • @jeicollins1673
      @jeicollins1673 4 роки тому

      @@AnnKanini they said naivas has a partner who refused the bailout of tuskys due to conflict of interests of being relatives

  • @eunicenjeru215
    @eunicenjeru215 4 роки тому +2

    But once a company gets into public, they get shareholders and thus should be more rooted and firm. The collapse may be more dye to other issues and not covid lock down. Management is to blame.

  • @magdalinemwangi1163
    @magdalinemwangi1163 4 роки тому +3

    The greed towards the siblings has dropped Tuskeys down
    Then as a parent it was good if the father leave them each their own part of business if it fails there will be no these courts and going down thing

  • @dominicmido5632
    @dominicmido5632 4 роки тому +2

    Poor management and greed will always cost Kenyan firms. Tuskys would have easily dominated the Kenyan market by 2022

  • @oscar-kibet
    @oscar-kibet 4 роки тому +1

    Greed and lack of discipline from the sons brought down this chain.Quite unfortunate.

  • @ninatheresaoywero8451
    @ninatheresaoywero8451 4 роки тому +3

    I wonder to revive tuskys can the brothers agree to each run different regional stores ?

  • @JesusChristSaves4ever
    @JesusChristSaves4ever 4 роки тому

    Earthly riches doesn't last forever *BUT* heavenly salvation is 4ever.

  • @alfanm.8221
    @alfanm.8221 4 роки тому +18

    Shida aliachia mali watoto wote kuliko kuwapa kila moja supermarket yake ata mtu akishindwa kuendesha supermarket yake atomlaumu yeyote zaidi ya nafsi yake

    • @blessedemily3652
      @blessedemily3652 4 роки тому

      True

    • @anngathogo3610
      @anngathogo3610 4 роки тому +3

      Supermarket branches operate as a unit and their assets are under one ambrella, huwezi gawanyisha kampuni hivo

    • @alfanm.8221
      @alfanm.8221 4 роки тому

      @@anngathogo3610 but now luk at where the company is it's collapsing it can't even pay it's worker.

    • @anngathogo3610
      @anngathogo3610 4 роки тому +1

      @@alfanm.8221 its because of greed. Those directors have taken their millions and invested them individually. Division of wealth does not count here

  • @cikuciku2355
    @cikuciku2355 4 роки тому +1

    Children should learn to respect their parents always either poor or rich they should and must maintain the respect to their parents....Sad how some people allows themselves to be guided by money and later results to greed and finally to a tremendous fall.

  • @Aalliiiq
    @Aalliiiq 4 роки тому +6

    It’s because of such nonsense that the rest of us find it difficult to attain credit facilities. Loans are granted by banks who are fully aware that the business will default.
    I feel for the employees they may never be paid

  • @kim1570
    @kim1570 4 роки тому +1

    We as Kenyans need to stop running our family businesses in a kienyeji manner. Its high time we implemented corporate professionalism in the way we do things, otherwise generational wealth is squandered within one generation.
    Also, can Citizen tv do a feature on what makes Nakuru the Silicon Valley of retail business - is it the environment, the culture of the people there.. that would be very insightful to know.

  • @erickojoy
    @erickojoy 4 роки тому +4

    When will suppliers and staff be paid??

    • @Aalliiiq
      @Aalliiiq 4 роки тому +1

      It’s already under liquidation so most probably they have agreed to a payment plan.
      However, the employees may not be as lucky in getting their wages.

  • @karadeno2001
    @karadeno2001 4 роки тому +8

    Exit tuskys enter Quickmatt

    • @illuminate4969
      @illuminate4969 4 роки тому +4

      True...and quickmart has come with better facilities and looks more mordern....hopefully they'll stay longer

  • @Silver_lining1
    @Silver_lining1 4 роки тому +14

    I feel bad for the employees

  • @annekanyi
    @annekanyi 4 роки тому +2

    Sad indeed 😢

  • @ayubmetah1558
    @ayubmetah1558 4 роки тому +5

    Where's the link to Part-2 please?

  • @martinakula8421
    @martinakula8421 4 роки тому +2

    Greed is a bad thing.

  • @zb684
    @zb684 4 роки тому +14

    They expanded too fast....where have I heard that before🤔

    • @BrianNderu
      @BrianNderu 4 роки тому +2

      Quick mart. Calf being fattened for slaughter.

    • @kingmatolo8381
      @kingmatolo8381 4 роки тому +1

      Expansion is not a problem. There are way larger supermarket chains all around the world. The problem with expansion is opening a new branch in a location which is not profitable

    • @vanhelsing4041
      @vanhelsing4041 4 роки тому +2

      @@kingmatolo8381 It's also mismanagement, trivial politics, lack of accountability, pilfering etc

    • @aliceomarphiri9635
      @aliceomarphiri9635 4 роки тому

      @@kingmatolo8381 when you expand with money that you are suppose to pay suppliers? You award family members with supplying tenders at favourable prices but when the goods hits the shelves the prices must be marketable like other retailers

    • @kingpablo2103
      @kingpablo2103 4 роки тому

      @@BrianNderu Is QuickMart Kenyan owned???

  • @velmaroselyne8249
    @velmaroselyne8249 4 роки тому +4

    Part 2 iko?

  • @richnesslizaliz6198
    @richnesslizaliz6198 4 роки тому +1

    If the dad had invested in real estate,maybe this culdnt have happened,sad that families fight themselves and bring each other down in such a manner.

    • @ianjupher2214
      @ianjupher2214 4 роки тому +2

      The type of business is not the issue..... The issue is who is running the business... This is more about siblings rivalry and greed.

    • @richnesslizaliz6198
      @richnesslizaliz6198 4 роки тому +1

      True but i think it dse matter.with real estate its way different they can steal and squender the money but the building will still provide cash for the entire generation,anyway greed in family members is very dengerous i hope they dnt reach a point of killing each other.

  • @johnmbugua4923
    @johnmbugua4923 4 роки тому

    INTRODUCITON EDITOR WAIHIGA MWAURA WOULD YOU PROVIDE THE LINK TO THE ONE WHO DIDTHAT LETTER SOUND EFFECT . I WOULD BE GLAD TO HEAR FROM YOU.

  • @canale_mio_bonaa
    @canale_mio_bonaa 4 роки тому +5

    Classical drama of high school leavers. How can they undo that now and put the business on foot again?

    • @hellespont1
      @hellespont1 4 роки тому

      Not possible.. It only helps to be an example to others with ambitions to grow family and generational wealth. Make foolproof plan for generational handover..

  • @alexnjenga8184
    @alexnjenga8184 4 роки тому

    Tamaaaa greed will take you nowhere

  • @lilianlee9775
    @lilianlee9775 4 роки тому +3

    Huyu Yousef ni Mkora...he should be blamed for the fall of Tuskys.

    • @mohabatkhanmalak1161
      @mohabatkhanmalak1161 4 роки тому

      Why do you say that, he seems a good person. The other siblings are the ones doing all sorts of unconventional deals.

    • @lilianlee9775
      @lilianlee9775 4 роки тому

      Just my opion

  • @andygal5605
    @andygal5605 4 роки тому +3

    Yusuf seems to be wise

  • @favouredblessed2631
    @favouredblessed2631 4 роки тому

    Oh very sad, aki greed is bad

  • @zainabalbasry8652
    @zainabalbasry8652 4 роки тому +2

    ooooo my so sad.

  • @Ayella_256
    @Ayella_256 4 роки тому +2

    Good documentary but it's bad to assume everyone speaks swahili. Add English subs for swahili interviews

    • @R33Po
      @R33Po 4 роки тому

      Swahili is the national language of Kenya and Citizen TV which is a KENYAN tv channel is targeted to Kenyans. It is either you learn the language or stop complaining.

  • @malekihanan9508
    @malekihanan9508 4 роки тому +3

    The moment this brothers started fighting and separated that's where the problem begins

  • @kimberlytv7895
    @kimberlytv7895 4 роки тому +4

    This is sad

  • @corneliusmkenya586
    @corneliusmkenya586 4 роки тому +1

    This is the season,no supermarkets surely.

  • @decoloniz_afro
    @decoloniz_afro 4 роки тому

    Generational wealth need good guidance because greedy kids within. And extended families can cause trouble

  • @leon-gh4me
    @leon-gh4me 4 роки тому +1

    In uganda tuskys is history

  • @isabellamugure6403
    @isabellamugure6403 4 роки тому +1

    Part 2 please

  • @ngendowanyoike9985
    @ngendowanyoike9985 4 роки тому +2

    down sizing is still a good strategy if taken positively.... the owners should contact good biz consultants

  • @razorramoneentertainment9091
    @razorramoneentertainment9091 4 роки тому +4

    Aki wanaziua.......nakumatt ilikufa ivo sai ni tuskys..

    • @irenewangari94
      @irenewangari94 4 роки тому

      You mean hakunanga nakumatt siku hizi?

  • @lincolnmwangi2150
    @lincolnmwangi2150 4 роки тому +10

    Wow ! It seems the red flags were there from 2012.

  • @X7XrAiNX7X
    @X7XrAiNX7X 4 роки тому +4

    Sad

  • @kevinjogoo8730
    @kevinjogoo8730 4 роки тому

    It’s just the culture of Kenya. Those in power plunder all they can with no regard to consequences

  • @MaEllaTam
    @MaEllaTam 4 роки тому +3

    Saddddd

  • @wanyamuthimookariuki2012
    @wanyamuthimookariuki2012 4 роки тому

    They were only able to manage each one station not several complicated ventures...

  • @janenjenga5639
    @janenjenga5639 4 роки тому

    Greedy have lead to down fall

  • @Kipro007-j5m
    @Kipro007-j5m 5 місяців тому

    They went public and realized they could steal millions of dollars. They should have remain private.

  • @muziki79
    @muziki79 4 роки тому +9

    Mwimba wa kujindunga huonewi huruma....let them fall so others can raise

  • @rigah1
    @rigah1 4 роки тому

    Can employers be jailed for not paying their employees due to gross misconduct?

  • @wanyamuthimookariuki2012
    @wanyamuthimookariuki2012 4 роки тому

    Thaangaarii,,huuko theerii...sorry Ngai witu..

  • @oyay2821
    @oyay2821 4 роки тому +3

    In Mombasa this Tusky did not employ even one local. The collapse in Tusky is much welcomed ndio next time wasi sahau locals also need jobs

  • @wanyamuthimookariuki2012
    @wanyamuthimookariuki2012 4 роки тому +1

    They dont look thieves,,maybe maa bro na ma dada wa kenya conn,conn like moles..be careful when you grow big you get exposed to the eye of the enemy '"friends"'be careful when itss soo rosey

  • @wanyamuthimookariuki2012
    @wanyamuthimookariuki2012 4 роки тому

    Management was too big to handle...

  • @sbiko7944
    @sbiko7944 4 роки тому

    Citizen clearly needs an investigative reporter with oomph.

  • @fndutakamau
    @fndutakamau 4 роки тому +2

    What😰

  • @gitobumanyara3249
    @gitobumanyara3249 4 роки тому +2

    The victims of the scam of these Groups of Supermarkets are the suppliers and employees, if you are one kama Hotpoint pole sana......and if your still supplying the remaining TWO, the trend is the same, wembe ni ule ule, cut your losses and run.

  • @RonaldL-x1n
    @RonaldL-x1n 4 роки тому +2

    You guys really rub in the salt, " the supermarket was lying on its death bed"

  • @seifhamisi2991
    @seifhamisi2991 4 роки тому

    The wages of corruption..

  • @bbc5043
    @bbc5043 4 роки тому +5

    These Kikuyus even steal from themselves you can imagine what they do to the government of Kenya coffers .

  • @clintonogero9263
    @clintonogero9263 4 роки тому +3

    Supermarket haina hata soda

    • @QimelyB
      @QimelyB 4 роки тому +1

      Wacha soda, chumvi hakuna

  • @wanyamuthimookariuki2012
    @wanyamuthimookariuki2012 4 роки тому

    Jack of all...finishing retailers..nimukuoonaa iciiii life like moles eat slowly with the pen then alas the tree falls with a bangh...muruuruumoo..

  • @justmeanduallthetime
    @justmeanduallthetime 4 роки тому

    Why do their pics look like mug shots 🤣😅

  • @prosperlilian1371
    @prosperlilian1371 4 роки тому +1

    Ni huku tuskys ndio mlionza kutulisha strange meat

  • @gemkachar
    @gemkachar 4 роки тому +7

    Wahiga Mwaura. Kazi safi. But please watch your waistline.

  • @samuelkagunyi7116
    @samuelkagunyi7116 4 роки тому +2

    I believe 'an investigative report' would bring into fore the new things not already in public domain.according to me,all Mwaura have done is to report.nevertheless, well done

  • @RK-xv1si
    @RK-xv1si 4 роки тому

    There was a video posted tuskys sister and brother fighting