For more about how our brains use imagination to solve problems, check out: ua-cam.com/video/-lzzI4jRY7E/v-deo.html Maybe grad school is the best brain training game? Check out: ua-cam.com/video/elamGFfeDGg/v-deo.html
Disagree brain training games do work its just that the portol players were not getting thier brains taxed anywhere near as much as the lumosity group so when it came to testing the Lum groups brains were most likely exhausted and the portal players were ready to go and fresh.
That is wrong. This research only includes gamers not non gamers. And also, after 8 hours, lumosity gamers are tired. So their score down Portal gamers was not tired like lumosity gamers, because lumosity is little harder for brain. Conclusion = This 8 hours research is not scientific
I didn't expect these kind of results tbh xD I think because Portal awakes not only the logical side but also the creative one, thinking out of the box, that it's similar to when you meditate and use the deep thinking for self improvement.
I do not have a PhD in learning science, nor any education in this area, but I would imagine the best way to "train your brain" generally is to simply be routinely intellectually engaged in a diverse range of activities.3
Hi, for my part, I noticed an incredible evolution following the daily use of brain game cognifit and neuronation, after 3 months. I've noticed a clear improvement, especially in reading speed, speed of execution for work tasks and better organization. Not to mention an improvement in my ability to maintain a work session without losing concentration.
6:58 Stating to just "focus on the skills that you really want to get better at" is very reductive and unhelpful. Many people (myself included) are looking for a software to help train skills such as focus, spacial reasoning, etc. that's all in one place and is easy to be consistent with. Many of us are too busy or distracted throughout the day to organize a regiment for training these skills. It's really about a necessity for convenience and practicality.
Great video, but some feedback: Were the Lumosity users just more fatigued from working harder? You should talk about whether the tests happened right before/after the training. If they did, you could reason the Lumosity group was more taxed/tired from training harder. Please talk about effect size. It's my biggest pet peeve when science communicators just talk about increases or improvements. By how much?? It could be 0.00001 vs 0.00002 and it's still an improvement. Maybe it would've been ruled as statistically insignificant and stated as such but it's good for your listeners to hear how significant it was. I *always* want to hear about the size of an effect, and how relevant it might be compared to other effect sizes.
I care about effect size, too. And I'll try to incorporate that more. But the main point is that brain training programs don't work. That Portal happened to beat Lumosity in this particular test is more of a fun intro to this idea. Comparing effect sizes to each other across studies also brings its own complications. People have asked me questions about their methods - that's precisely why I cite the article. You can pull it up and read the methods section yourself. I cannot include every single methodological detail and guessing which alternative explanations people are going to propose that more details from me would help resolve is practically impossible. If it wasn't this explanation ("maybe the Lumosity people were more fatigued"), it would be some other explanation that people would have.
No. Your Phd is showing. You used the example in your video, then provide the actual difference. They didn't ask for irrelevant or unrelated data; it pertained to precisely what you're trying to prove. Thank you for calling this out! He's just as wrong or misleading, IMO. I sure don't want to go down a rabbit hole based on some egotistical Chad's perspective.
Dont have to bring every detail juat the key details, lol. How hard is it to bring up 1 more, like a key detail. I wonder if you were personally offended at your low scores. Maybe luminosity just hurt your feelings @@benjaminkeep
Great video! I am someone who is looking to improve their spatial reasoning skills. Do you have any recommendations / would you consider doing a video on this topic?
Checking these apps as a gamer i was thinking the same thing, surely i'm doing more tasks in varied ways constantly with games. I think they would be good for someone recovering from a brain injury to get back to basics but its a na from meh
When you said, teh best way to exercise your brain i strough exercise, do you mean like physical exercise, or like mental exercises ? Like puzzles, memory games, etc ?
That's a reasonable thought, but doesn't really apply in this case. The training took place over a number of sessions (each participant spent 10 hours in the study) over the course of a couple of weeks and the last session was solely for administering the post-training battery of tests, days after the training was completed.
So it means we can say that Lumiosity games cannot improve cognitive functions of a person, but it can be used for checking cognition of a persons brain.
The decreased scores could be explained by mental fatigue. The brain games are more mentally taxing than portal2. If i played brain games for 8 hours i'd want to shut my brain off and watch tv. If i did that with portal 2 i'd feel like a lazy piece of shit and want to do something productive.
See the big paper cited in the description on brain training games. I'm on board with its analysis. Essentially, no, not for meaningful transfer. Dual N Back is what a lot of brain training software was originally based on.
About a year ago I tried lumosity. There was some kind of test as part of getting started, it was so lame and monotonous I just started pushing keys as fast as possible to get through it The results came back I was somewhere below the 75% tile. As you can imagine that was humiliating and provided me the perfect reason to say F-Off and delete the app promptly. So proud of my decision now sometimes you must listen to your gut.
Dual-n-back is precisely what Lumosity was based on. You can read more about why it doesn't generalize to far transfer tasks in this piece, which is cited in the description: Simons, D. J., Boot, W. R., Charness, N., Gathercole, S. E., Chabris, C. F., Hambrick, D. Z., & Stine-Morrow, E. A. (2016). Do “brain-training” programs work?. Psychological Science in the Public Interest, 17(3), 103-186. (available at www.ontwerpenvoordementie.nl/assets/simonsetal_2016-braintraining.pdf)
Aren't small improvements important and can cause a masire change through time?. Also how can we judge an by only 8 hours of training. Another element you should consider, the fact u saying they did an experiment isn't the same as the people they conducted a research about the app? I mean the only difference I would point at is the research for sure covered more area and was for a longer period which makes your only point unvalid. Thanx for the video tho
If the improvements are so small, that you do worse on the test after them, there's probably a better way to spend your time. The apps are incentivised to tell you they're great, the possibility of bias there is obvious. What I'm trying to say is to make your small improvements elsewhere. Learn new skills, acquire knowledge.
I think it's important to make a distinction between "brain training" - which is what Lumosity tries to do - and "knowledge accumulating / skill acquiring" - which is what Brilliant tries to do. Brilliant is trying to teach people specific things; Lumosity is trying to generically improve working memory (among other general cognitive abilities).
Are you looking at the population that plays these games? Brain training games are played by older subjects that are in cognitive decline possibly. The other games might be played by younger players that are developing. We have to see if the studies methods are scientific sound.
3:51 I wouldn't be surprised if playing Wario Ware would be better than these "brain training" gimmicky things. Just hope miyamoto doesn't notice them, he has a certain loveboner for dumb gimmicks 🤣
You are comparing apples to oranges so this is not really a valid assessment of whether or not lumosity or Portal 2 wins the contest of which one improve your cognitive ability. If you are only focused on spatial reasoning, it makes sense that the 3D game portal would be more effective in some ways to train your brain to adjusting to various special environments etc because portal two offers and environment where you live in a special 3D environment already, thereby increasing your ability to solve problems based in a spatial setup. This does not mean that lumosity does not work on other types of skills or that Portal 2 is better at training the brain for cognitive abilities that are more likely to be used in the real world. There are some advantages to both, but there are also a lot of negative results when your brain plays video games that Portal 2 over long periods of time. Common Sense must be used with any of these applications and the best therapy really is to get off the matrix and outdoors because the best teacher is from life experience!
Next up from Ben: the exercises you need to train your brain! Get killer abs, to go with your killer brain! Oh wait.. that sales pitch might need to be tweaked...
You can't really expect your brain to improve within 8 hours. You havent even slept to help it recover😅😅. At the end of the day, brain training is better than scrolling or consuming youtube. It costs more energy, thereby practices your brain.
Did they play for 8 hours straight? Maybe their brain just got overtaxed / they got tired, and that's why there performance went down. that would be like saying cardio exercise doesn't help people's endurance because after running 8 hours straight participants scored lower on endurance tests (how far they could run without getting exhausted) vs people who walked for 8 hours straight or lay down for 8 hours straight. the most important effect of these apps would be medium or long term improvements after consistent use (probably with rest periods, as in physical exercise), not the cognitive boost from the same day. not saying these apps work but i'm not convinced by this one study Edit: I looked at the study, they had 3*3 hour sessions across 1-2 weeks, with the first session including the pre-test, and a 4th session with only the post test, so my critique doesn't really apply that much btw, Portal is a (great) puzzle game, so I see why it would help you with brain skills. I wonder why luminosity made scores go down, would they have gone down anyway, or does lumosity potentially actually do the opposite of what it says and make you dumber?
For more about how our brains use imagination to solve problems, check out: ua-cam.com/video/-lzzI4jRY7E/v-deo.html
Maybe grad school is the best brain training game? Check out: ua-cam.com/video/elamGFfeDGg/v-deo.html
Disagree brain training games do work its just that the portol players were not getting thier brains taxed anywhere near as much as the lumosity group so when it came to testing the Lum groups brains were most likely exhausted and the portal players were ready to go and fresh.
@@silverpro8356 agree, how ever lumosity doesn´t work.
Every kid will be using this video to tell their parents that video games are good for their brain
That is wrong. This research only includes gamers not non gamers. And also, after 8 hours, lumosity gamers are tired. So their score down
Portal gamers was not tired like lumosity gamers, because lumosity is little harder for brain.
Conclusion = This 8 hours research is not scientific
I didn't expect these kind of results tbh xD I think because Portal awakes not only the logical side but also the creative one, thinking out of the box, that it's similar to when you meditate and use the deep thinking for self improvement.
I do not have a PhD in learning science, nor any education in this area, but I would imagine the best way to "train your brain" generally is to simply be routinely intellectually engaged in a diverse range of activities.3
Hi, for my part, I noticed an incredible evolution following the daily use of brain game cognifit and neuronation, after 3 months. I've noticed a clear improvement, especially in reading speed, speed of execution for work tasks and better organization. Not to mention an improvement in my ability to maintain a work session without losing concentration.
I'm not procrastinating, I'm playing portal 2 and improve my brain :)
i train my brain 6 hs in portal :)
Go learn major system and actually train your brain
I won't play a " killing game" to improve my brain. No part of me aligns with this. Stickin' to Luminosity.
There are no killings in Portal 2, only puzzles and some plot
Grandma, there are no killings in portal it’s only puzzles
6:58 Stating to just "focus on the skills that you really want to get better at" is very reductive and unhelpful. Many people (myself included) are looking for a software to help train skills such as focus, spacial reasoning, etc. that's all in one place and is easy to be consistent with. Many of us are too busy or distracted throughout the day to organize a regiment for training these skills. It's really about a necessity for convenience and practicality.
I’d love you to come up with a similar comparisons of short term memory apps
Great video, but some feedback:
Were the Lumosity users just more fatigued from working harder? You should talk about whether the tests happened right before/after the training. If they did, you could reason the Lumosity group was more taxed/tired from training harder.
Please talk about effect size. It's my biggest pet peeve when science communicators just talk about increases or improvements. By how much?? It could be 0.00001 vs 0.00002 and it's still an improvement. Maybe it would've been ruled as statistically insignificant and stated as such but it's good for your listeners to hear how significant it was. I *always* want to hear about the size of an effect, and how relevant it might be compared to other effect sizes.
I care about effect size, too. And I'll try to incorporate that more. But the main point is that brain training programs don't work. That Portal happened to beat Lumosity in this particular test is more of a fun intro to this idea.
Comparing effect sizes to each other across studies also brings its own complications.
People have asked me questions about their methods - that's precisely why I cite the article. You can pull it up and read the methods section yourself. I cannot include every single methodological detail and guessing which alternative explanations people are going to propose that more details from me would help resolve is practically impossible. If it wasn't this explanation ("maybe the Lumosity people were more fatigued"), it would be some other explanation that people would have.
No. Your Phd is showing. You used the example in your video, then provide the actual difference. They didn't ask for irrelevant or unrelated data; it pertained to precisely what you're trying to prove. Thank you for calling this out! He's just as wrong or misleading, IMO. I sure don't want to go down a rabbit hole based on some egotistical Chad's perspective.
Dont have to bring every detail juat the key details, lol. How hard is it to bring up 1 more, like a key detail. I wonder if you were personally offended at your low scores.
Maybe luminosity just hurt your feelings @@benjaminkeep
Where is the control group
Great video! I am someone who is looking to improve their spatial reasoning skills. Do you have any recommendations / would you consider doing a video on this topic?
Checking these apps as a gamer i was thinking the same thing, surely i'm doing more tasks in varied ways constantly with games. I think they would be good for someone recovering from a brain injury to get back to basics but its a na from meh
When you said, teh best way to exercise your brain i strough exercise, do you mean like physical exercise, or like mental exercises ? Like puzzles, memory games, etc ?
hi! Dont you think that it could be the case that the luminosity exercises fatigued the brain more than portals leading to worse score results after?
That's a reasonable thought, but doesn't really apply in this case. The training took place over a number of sessions (each participant spent 10 hours in the study) over the course of a couple of weeks and the last session was solely for administering the post-training battery of tests, days after the training was completed.
@@benjaminkeep i see, thanks a lot for clarification☺️
I know i'm 2 years late but, did try to play Talos principle? It's similar game as Portal.
Hey doc, do you think I should play portal 1 before 2, or straight to portal 2? My intention is just brain training.
So it means we can say that Lumiosity games cannot improve cognitive functions of a person, but it can be used for checking cognition of a persons brain.
The decreased scores could be explained by mental fatigue. The brain games are more mentally taxing than portal2. If i played brain games for 8 hours i'd want to shut my brain off and watch tv. If i did that with portal 2 i'd feel like a lazy piece of shit and want to do something productive.
Sounds more like someone touting portal games than a true comparison
Liked and Subscribed!!
What’s your opinion on Dual N Back? Does it work or not?
See the big paper cited in the description on brain training games. I'm on board with its analysis. Essentially, no, not for meaningful transfer. Dual N Back is what a lot of brain training software was originally based on.
About a year ago I tried lumosity. There was some kind of test as part of getting started, it was so lame and monotonous I just started pushing keys as fast as possible to get through it The results came back I was somewhere below the 75% tile. As you can imagine that was humiliating and provided me the perfect reason to say F-Off and delete the app promptly.
So proud of my decision now sometimes you must listen to your gut.
Getting portal 2 now
Can you make a video about dual n back, there is satisfactory research that it works for generalization on different tasks.
Dual-n-back is precisely what Lumosity was based on. You can read more about why it doesn't generalize to far transfer tasks in this piece, which is cited in the description:
Simons, D. J., Boot, W. R., Charness, N., Gathercole, S. E., Chabris, C. F., Hambrick, D. Z., & Stine-Morrow, E. A. (2016). Do “brain-training” programs work?. Psychological Science in the Public Interest, 17(3), 103-186.
(available at www.ontwerpenvoordementie.nl/assets/simonsetal_2016-braintraining.pdf)
AS being a gamer I agreed with your video 😂
Aren't small improvements important and can cause a masire change through time?. Also how can we judge an by only 8 hours of training. Another element you should consider, the fact u saying they did an experiment isn't the same as the people they conducted a research about the app? I mean the only difference I would point at is the research for sure covered more area and was for a longer period which makes your only point unvalid. Thanx for the video tho
If the improvements are so small, that you do worse on the test after them, there's probably a better way to spend your time. The apps are incentivised to tell you they're great, the possibility of bias there is obvious. What I'm trying to say is to make your small improvements elsewhere. Learn new skills, acquire knowledge.
What's a good way to train spatial reasoning?
Metroid prime trilogy ;)
How many research participants?
The reason the scores went down in Lumosity is because that part of their brain was exhausted lol.
Valve is a GOAT game development company.
What about something like brilliant? It is more like a structured lesson so, must be a bit better right?
I think it's important to make a distinction between "brain training" - which is what Lumosity tries to do - and "knowledge accumulating / skill acquiring" - which is what Brilliant tries to do. Brilliant is trying to teach people specific things; Lumosity is trying to generically improve working memory (among other general cognitive abilities).
I bought portal cos of this (and it was also 90% off) lol
Fantastic game!
Are you looking at the population that plays these games? Brain training games are played by older subjects that are in cognitive decline possibly. The other games might be played by younger players that are developing. We have to see if the studies methods are scientific sound.
This answer is cool
3:51 I wouldn't be surprised if playing Wario Ware would be better than these "brain training" gimmicky things. Just hope miyamoto doesn't notice them, he has a certain loveboner for dumb gimmicks 🤣
How in the hell can specific designed games for specific intelectual areas not work?
😮😮😮
Stop gaslighting
You are comparing apples to oranges so this is not really a valid assessment of whether or not lumosity or Portal 2 wins the contest of which one improve your cognitive ability. If you are only focused on spatial reasoning, it makes sense that the 3D game portal would be more effective in some ways to train your brain to adjusting to various special environments etc because portal two offers and environment where you live in a special 3D environment already, thereby increasing your ability to solve problems based in a spatial setup. This does not mean that lumosity does not work on other types of skills or that Portal 2 is better at training the brain for cognitive abilities that are more likely to be used in the real world. There are some advantages to both, but there are also a lot of negative results when your brain plays video games that Portal 2 over long periods of time. Common Sense must be used with any of these applications and the best therapy really is to get off the matrix and outdoors because the best teacher is from life experience!
Read the paper. They tested a huge range of cognitive skills that Lumosity claims to improve (and doesn't).
brain training skills go DOWN with Lumosity? find that hard to believe.
👍🏻
Portal link please
Next up from Ben: the exercises you need to train your brain!
Get killer abs, to go with your killer brain! Oh wait.. that sales pitch might need to be tweaked...
You can't really expect your brain to improve within 8 hours. You havent even slept to help it recover😅😅.
At the end of the day, brain training is better than scrolling or consuming youtube. It costs more energy, thereby practices your brain.
This is not how things work
@@ApatheticPerson not by mechanism, but statistically it does.
@@makisxatzimixas2372depends on how you use UA-cam, and how long you use it
Bottom line it. Quit proving what a waste a phd is
Lumosity is boring, its is relevant fact for research, dont force people in a boring things, its bad for brain
Lumosity is amazing 😮
Did they play for 8 hours straight? Maybe their brain just got overtaxed / they got tired, and that's why there performance went down.
that would be like saying cardio exercise doesn't help people's endurance because after running 8 hours straight participants scored lower on endurance tests (how far they could run without getting exhausted) vs people who walked for 8 hours straight or lay down for 8 hours straight. the most important effect of these apps would be medium or long term improvements after consistent use (probably with rest periods, as in physical exercise), not the cognitive boost from the same day. not saying these apps work but i'm not convinced by this one study
Edit: I looked at the study, they had 3*3 hour sessions across 1-2 weeks, with the first session including the pre-test, and a 4th session with only the post test, so my critique doesn't really apply that much
btw, Portal is a (great) puzzle game, so I see why it would help you with brain skills. I wonder why luminosity made scores go down, would they have gone down anyway, or does lumosity potentially actually do the opposite of what it says and make you dumber?