First 20:00 roll in is also really strong after shielding the safe move since forward roll is invul on frame 4. If they mash jab you can punish. If they shield, by the time they react you'll be positive if they try to shield drop or do an oos option. If they do nothing to try and read the roll then they're opening themselves up to get shield grabbed etc.
Sometimes, your character has a perfect move that counters the tactic your opponent is mashing, and when you start using it over and over again, they just stop and take a look at you probably thinking "how dare you".
Nice concept for the video, but with a script and some cut edits I'm sure the content could be covered a lot faster. Also, would be cool to have a guest like Tweek who plays very anti mash to help showcase it in an arena. There were many mashing and counterplay strategies not covered here for gimmicks like spotdodge cancelling, fastfall neutral airdodge into buttons, whiff baits into buttons, roll behind approaches etc that'd be very eye opening to many people. Perhaps a sequel?
i like how you mentioned having stage is a resource that we use and keep track of. It seems there is like a million and a half interactions that i feel like i need to keep track of, i think a video about picking a choosing what to look for in the opponent to avoid overthinking during a match.
That's a good idea. The answer to that is probably just "as much as you can keep track of" though. I usually just look for 1) whether I should pressure or whiff punish, 2) what they do after I start a combo, and 3) how they get up from ledge.
Develop your auto pilote mode and when you have enough practice you do things more automatically so you can focus more deeply on other things during a match without it being a problem. I'm currently trying to.
I never played this game, but this is very interesting. I like the strategic information you are providing for those who play competitively. Keep up the good work.
Best advice for playing against zoners is first learn their range of comfort (that space is diff for every zoner), learn the tools they use to zone, learn the counterplay to those moves (some you should try to parry, some you should try to jump over, some should you dash shield, etc), lastly learn how to break their zones. Easier said than done ofc but it takes work
Definitely appreciate this thorough breakdown of the small interactions in Smash and how much they matter. I only recently started scratching the surface of this concept but this really helped solidify it for me!
amazing video i learned so much! would love a more in depth video on parrying in the future as I feel its a really underutilised option at mid levels and would help a lot of people especially me haha
@@devin2445 bro yuo don’t get it when I use neutral air out of shield because you touched it for a nano second I actually have to input the entire length of the number pie with my controller to hit you 😎
As a character with a high full hop, I like to full hop out of shield so I can react to and punish them. If they press another button or even spotdodge, I’m already above them and can land with an aerial
I just straight up don't have the reaction time for any of this stuff. Like, its pretty obvious how to punish and deal with certain scenarios, but when things are happening within 15 frames, I just can't keep up. So most of my playstyle is just reads and option select because hot damn trying to react to mashing even when its obvious is difficult.
I think something that might help the problem of speaking to no one but a camera is imagining a tilted person in front of you and dealing with them. I think it will better put you into the mindset of dealing with the people you are actually aiming this at.
I’m not completely sure. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt cuz he’s playing a video game and many gamers record in the middle of the night lol
Really good and thorough guide on what to do in these kinds of situations, but wow Sakurai went way overboard with nerfing shields. He must've hated Smash 4 more than the players themselves did lol.
I would love to see a video on how to play defensively. I play Greninja and can't do the normal playing out of shield, and commonly run into projectiles (PK Fire, Mario fireball, etc) covering the area I'm trying to whiff punish from, and it gets really hard to deal with. There are just some matchups that get really hard to play defensively in, but are also really hard to approach. What other defensive options should I be trying to use? My specific situation when playing with my friends: The main one I'm running into is playing against a Doc in online friendlies. I know you are supposed to camp him, but I don't know how to do that without straight up timing him out (which I don't want to do in friendlies). I can't punish anything he does on my shield without parrying (Greninja things), which I sometimes do but its very risky because of Doc's Down B. I can also try to dash back and whiff punish, but then the pills come out and covers that area, and now I feel have to play aggressive, which causes me to get whiff punished or out of shielded. I know Greninja should just ruin Doc with mobility, but we usually go close to 50/50 and I want the edge. What should I try/work on?
I think you're thinking about your gameplan as too black and white. You can't treat those characters with strong projectiles (wolf, mario, pikachu, ness etc) like you'd treat a swordy. The differences required in playstyle are very nuanced but not pointless If you're struggling to react to fireball/pill you're probably close enough to straight up punish him for picking that option. Takes a defensive read though to avoid the pill at close range You're greninja though and you can definitely afford to take that risk in neutral because you'll likely get 30-60 damage for the neutral win
Does anyone have recommendations for using walking and dashing to escape pressure as a slower character? I play Incineroar and I find that I can't usually use my dash or walk to get away.
Your content is a fucking blessing, dude. I feel so much more hopeful about getting to understand this game better, with this specific videos. I find that Ultimate feels very unintuitive, compared to other Smash games. It's very hard for me to solve interactions by just playing the game, as I've always had.
will you be doing one to talk about campers? especially during the wifi era, campers are incredulously hard to deal with because you have to add at least 3 frames of delay to the gameplay, meaning reactions and parrying are sometimes off the table (and also you made a video to counter mashers like myself and i for one feel called out that u chose roy instantly. this isnt fair.)
On the topic of stage control as a resource; why do so many people corner or platform camp? Like on the surface I understand it; by running away from the opponent's threat range with a life lead (or against an impatient opponent) you force them to approach you, which you can stuff out. This is especially effective with characters that have long range/quick burst options, as they can threaten or harass from a distance. But when you consider stage control as a defensive resource, my personal understanding of the concept kinda falls apart; why do so many people give up this defensive resource to play defensively? Is running into the corner/onto a platform not just putting yourself in a disadvantageous position?
matchup is important for this, creating space with a lead can buy time to setup charges/item which can be seen as winning neutral If you can do that without giving up too much stage control, that would be better, but the corner isn't that bad with a lead since whiff punishing is god in this game It's a player thing as well, some players are more confident in their platform/corner play, are betting that their opponent isn't strong (either the player or the character) against those positions, or are bad at open space neutral. a valid fear could be crossups in the center, since the attacker doesn't degrade their position much
@@charlie2443 Ok, so you camp for different reasons depending on if you want to setup stuff, or if the opponent/opponent's character struggles with a certain type of camping. How would you best figure this out, matchup to matchup?
@@notpuffermcsparkleface i would join both character discords and ask what they lose to, and counterplay for it on the fly it's not realistic, you need to train in the matchup. player habits matter way more imo
@@charlie2443 Ooooh actually I think the Sheik discord (which is my current main) has a list of what playstyle to use against the different characters, so that'll be a good starting point. And player habits will just come from experience eh, both figuring out your local scene and getting better at learning player's habits quicker. Another question on all this though; when you're using a strategy against someone, how can you tell if what you're doing is effective against the character or the player? For example, I regularly time out my local Steve player, but I'm not sure if camping is effective against Steve in general or if the Steve player just doesn't know how to deal with it. I'm leaning towards the latter since I always hear people saying to pressure Steve and not let him get resources, but how can I know for sure? Does this just go back to research/character discords?
@@notpuffermcsparkleface I think camping with a lead is optimal in general (of course while punishing unsafe approaches), and that your local Steve hasn't found the answer to your way of camping I would say that the strategy is working against the player, but a counterargument could be Little Mac vs anyone, and how it wouldn't be crazy to say "just throw him offstage" is an effective strategy. Maybe an objective look is to compare the characters' options in situations that would commonly arise from using that strategy, and the relative difficulty to "win" in a situation (what are the possible outcomes' effects on win conditions? what's the frequency of this situation if we play like this?). Since it's a fighting game and situations would overlap heavily across all strategies, I think that playing strategies (even only partially) inherently leaks habits, which is the biggest factor in winning
I'm playing a friend of mine. I'm a Pit main and even though I can beat him with many of his other characters, I can't beat his captain falcon. I can edgeguard, ledgetrap and rule an advantage state about as good as him but it's hard for me to gain advantage state. Does anyone know how to deal with neutral Mix-ups (cf has grab, raptor boost and air to ground approaches, and falcon kick and I'm having trouble figuring out how to win neutral).
Ok now that you've taken the time to generalize these options and responses to button mashing Now take the time to show us every character's button mashing option in the game and how you should respond This is a University is it not? Where's my information I don't want to read a textbook saying America was founded in a day We must elaborate further! Knowledge is power More content! Thank you
What I want to now is how to deal with all the rude toxic people that complain ever time dlc comes out if it’s not then its the political correctness freaks. Smash was racists by not choosing the black female character from arms. The persona five has a song in it that’s offensive to people with learning disability. No pyra and Methyra our not a male fan service power fetish fantasy playable character.
idk man none of this seems like its going to help me as a piranha plant main getting ran down by mashing roys lmao what, parry more and hope a faster character spaces worse on accident? none of this feels like it has to do with *mashing*, just priority and advantage i might as well pick a new main instead of playing what i enjoy if frames are all there is to worry about
I feel the opposite. I lose to worse players who all use a textbook style but can't be punished due to the lag online and being completely unpredictable by mashing when I who would assume better options from an actual good player.
I love how you used Terry's theme for this
It's almost like a sign of some sorts.
The Masher National Anthem.
Terry is god of mashing.
As a Terry main
Yeah fair enough
D tilt d tilt d tilt d tilt d tilt d tilt d tilt d tilt d tilt d tilt d tilt d tilt d tilt d tilt
"why should i expand my brainpower if you cant deal with one cell?"
one *neuron* would have been more accurate but the quote stays so great nevertheless.
He said expend
Hey man
First
20:00 roll in is also really strong after shielding the safe move since forward roll is invul on frame 4. If they mash jab you can punish. If they shield, by the time they react you'll be positive if they try to shield drop or do an oos option. If they do nothing to try and read the roll then they're opening themselves up to get shield grabbed etc.
Not quite
@@nolanj.3897 T.T
@@nolanj.3897 it's a good option just use it sparingly
@@devsiva8497 my comment was pre edit
Sometimes I don't know if rolling being that good is good design or just another example of Ultimate having too many safe options
Sometimes, your character has a perfect move that counters the tactic your opponent is mashing, and when you start using it over and over again, they just stop and take a look at you probably thinking "how dare you".
Mining with Steve Lmao
Game and Watch up b
Pikachu...existing
Pikachu's Up B to reach you.
@@Veyoya2 i love doing that, then they come at You with something stupid and easy to punish
Nice concept for the video, but with a script and some cut edits I'm sure the content could be covered a lot faster. Also, would be cool to have a guest like Tweek who plays very anti mash to help showcase it in an arena. There were many mashing and counterplay strategies not covered here for gimmicks like spotdodge cancelling, fastfall neutral airdodge into buttons, whiff baits into buttons, roll behind approaches etc that'd be very eye opening to many people. Perhaps a sequel?
i like how you mentioned having stage is a resource that we use and keep track of.
It seems there is like a million and a half interactions that i feel like i need to keep track of,
i think a video about picking a choosing what to look for in the opponent to avoid overthinking during a match.
That's a good idea. The answer to that is probably just "as much as you can keep track of" though. I usually just look for 1) whether I should pressure or whiff punish, 2) what they do after I start a combo, and 3) how they get up from ledge.
yeh I also kind of struggle with that in this game
Develop your auto pilote mode and when you have enough practice you do things more automatically so you can focus more deeply on other things during a match without it being a problem. I'm currently trying to.
With experience you’ll be able to naturally keep track of dozens of things.
I never played this game, but this is very interesting. I like the strategic information you are providing for those who play competitively. Keep up the good work.
Can you guys make a video to help deal with zoners? Projectile characters, MinMin, etc
Love your guy’s content!
You mean zoners?
Best advice for playing against zoners is first learn their range of comfort (that space is diff for every zoner), learn the tools they use to zone, learn the counterplay to those moves (some you should try to parry, some you should try to jump over, some should you dash shield, etc), lastly learn how to break their zones. Easier said than done ofc but it takes work
My friend use the galaxy brain tactics camp them little Oofers
Don't forget some Pyra and chrom who like to spam ftilt.
@@Thatglasseskun potatoe potatoe
Loving the content guys, I really hope this channel keeps growing
“Dashback”
Me *cries in 18 frame dash animation as a robin main*
Also short hop aerials do even less shield stun because of the short hop aerial multiplier (I think it’s x0.85)
That multiplier doesn't apply to shieldstun
@@jesusnegrete6018 oh really
Definitely appreciate this thorough breakdown of the small interactions in Smash and how much they matter. I only recently started scratching the surface of this concept but this really helped solidify it for me!
2:57 Was that the Kevin Hart HELP ME lmaooo
Man, I am lovin this series! Can't wait to see what's next!
Don't forget to add this video to the Smash University guides playlist so people could find it easily later on! :D
I don't know how many joints the guy had before shooting but I bet it's some good shit.
I wish I got to fight the "masher" type players on elite. All I seem to get are the "I'm going to run from edge to edge" type players lol.
People really complaining about Roy mashing when Terry, Young Link, the rats, and Mario exist.
People really acting like Roy isn’t the biggest masher in the game
@@Reallyjoyboyfr Mario can def mash harder than Roy with his safer aerials
Pac man fair is so irritating
Oh my GOD thank you for this. My friends mash too damn hard lol.
amazing video i learned so much! would love a more in depth video on parrying in the future as I feel its a really underutilised option at mid levels and would help a lot of people especially me haha
Agreed and I would go for it if I wasn't scared of missing the timing online
Wow, love to the level of technicality in the video! Just subscribed 🙂
The counter to mashing is to mash harder than them /s
why did it take so long to find this channel this is awsome
Great video, but my man totally took big hit before going on cam lol. Respect
VoiD sent me
I always used to believe that to deal with mashes, you gotta know what they're gonna do.
Works, to some extent
Void sent me here 💜
Great content! I would love a video explaining how to better react to an opponent's attacks & parrying!
My man looks cooked asf
Tweek sent me👌
And this still isn’t the mashiest S(mash) game. Looking at you, Melee.
Mashing is just aggressive turtling
bro fr sometimes attacking is faster than pressing a defensive option
Me: "Yeah I hate mashers I hope I can beat them."
Also me: Spams nair with Mii Brawler and Bair with Byleth in neutral
Byleth nair safe on everything
100% spammable
@@devin2445 bro yuo don’t get it when I use neutral air out of shield because you touched it for a nano second I actually have to input the entire length of the number pie with my controller to hit you 😎
gosh dang this is good! So in depth! Subbed!
honey wake up new smash university video
As a character with a high full hop, I like to full hop out of shield so I can react to and punish them. If they press another button or even spotdodge, I’m already above them and can land with an aerial
I just straight up don't have the reaction time for any of this stuff. Like, its pretty obvious how to punish and deal with certain scenarios, but when things are happening within 15 frames, I just can't keep up.
So most of my playstyle is just reads and option select because hot damn trying to react to mashing even when its obvious is difficult.
I NEEDED THIS VIDEO
I think something that might help the problem of speaking to no one but a camera is imagining a tilted person in front of you and dealing with them. I think it will better put you into the mindset of dealing with the people you are actually aiming this at.
This video is intended for people to spend their time and learn properly i.e. not tilted people
Man, when I'm sick of mashers online I just pick Terry or Richter. I lose my dignity but seeing people struggle against 1 or 2 moves is just so funny
Am I the only one who thought the first dude was completely blazed lol
Is he not? LOL
I’m not completely sure. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt cuz he’s playing a video game and many gamers record in the middle of the night lol
But I don’t care lol
Caught this one early!!!
Really good and thorough guide on what to do in these kinds of situations, but wow Sakurai went way overboard with nerfing shields. He must've hated Smash 4 more than the players themselves did lol.
I've been waiting for this
Mans eyes are part blaziken
This video is godlike thank you so much
My man is so high
I would love to see a video on how to play defensively. I play Greninja and can't do the normal playing out of shield, and commonly run into projectiles (PK Fire, Mario fireball, etc) covering the area I'm trying to whiff punish from, and it gets really hard to deal with. There are just some matchups that get really hard to play defensively in, but are also really hard to approach. What other defensive options should I be trying to use?
My specific situation when playing with my friends:
The main one I'm running into is playing against a Doc in online friendlies. I know you are supposed to camp him, but I don't know how to do that without straight up timing him out (which I don't want to do in friendlies). I can't punish anything he does on my shield without parrying (Greninja things), which I sometimes do but its very risky because of Doc's Down B. I can also try to dash back and whiff punish, but then the pills come out and covers that area, and now I feel have to play aggressive, which causes me to get whiff punished or out of shielded. I know Greninja should just ruin Doc with mobility, but we usually go close to 50/50 and I want the edge. What should I try/work on?
I think you're thinking about your gameplan as too black and white. You can't treat those characters with strong projectiles (wolf, mario, pikachu, ness etc) like you'd treat a swordy.
The differences required in playstyle are very nuanced but not pointless
If you're struggling to react to fireball/pill you're probably close enough to straight up punish him for picking that option. Takes a defensive read though to avoid the pill at close range
You're greninja though and you can definitely afford to take that risk in neutral because you'll likely get 30-60 damage for the neutral win
Ness though, I have no clue how to counter that, I've tried these strats and damn. Still can't punish the fucker.
That Byleth skin is really pretty
Tweek Gang
Ness in general sent me here
no not just the mashy ones
Elite Smash
Does anyone have recommendations for using walking and dashing to escape pressure as a slower character? I play Incineroar and I find that I can't usually use my dash or walk to get away.
Algorithm squad
Your content is a fucking blessing, dude. I feel so much more hopeful about getting to understand this game better, with this specific videos. I find that Ultimate feels very unintuitive, compared to other Smash games. It's very hard for me to solve interactions by just playing the game, as I've always had.
will you be doing one to talk about campers? especially during the wifi era, campers are incredulously hard to deal with because you have to add at least 3 frames of delay to the gameplay, meaning reactions and parrying are sometimes off the table (and also you made a video to counter mashers like myself and i for one feel called out that u chose roy instantly. this isnt fair.)
Awesome video!
On the topic of stage control as a resource; why do so many people corner or platform camp? Like on the surface I understand it; by running away from the opponent's threat range with a life lead (or against an impatient opponent) you force them to approach you, which you can stuff out. This is especially effective with characters that have long range/quick burst options, as they can threaten or harass from a distance. But when you consider stage control as a defensive resource, my personal understanding of the concept kinda falls apart; why do so many people give up this defensive resource to play defensively? Is running into the corner/onto a platform not just putting yourself in a disadvantageous position?
matchup is important for this, creating space with a lead can buy time to setup charges/item which can be seen as winning neutral
If you can do that without giving up too much stage control, that would be better, but the corner isn't that bad with a lead since whiff punishing is god in this game
It's a player thing as well, some players are more confident in their platform/corner play, are betting that their opponent isn't strong (either the player or the character) against those positions, or are bad at open space neutral. a valid fear could be crossups in the center, since the attacker doesn't degrade their position much
@@charlie2443 Ok, so you camp for different reasons depending on if you want to setup stuff, or if the opponent/opponent's character struggles with a certain type of camping. How would you best figure this out, matchup to matchup?
@@notpuffermcsparkleface i would join both character discords and ask what they lose to, and counterplay for it
on the fly it's not realistic, you need to train in the matchup. player habits matter way more imo
@@charlie2443 Ooooh actually I think the Sheik discord (which is my current main) has a list of what playstyle to use against the different characters, so that'll be a good starting point. And player habits will just come from experience eh, both figuring out your local scene and getting better at learning player's habits quicker.
Another question on all this though; when you're using a strategy against someone, how can you tell if what you're doing is effective against the character or the player? For example, I regularly time out my local Steve player, but I'm not sure if camping is effective against Steve in general or if the Steve player just doesn't know how to deal with it. I'm leaning towards the latter since I always hear people saying to pressure Steve and not let him get resources, but how can I know for sure? Does this just go back to research/character discords?
@@notpuffermcsparkleface I think camping with a lead is optimal in general (of course while punishing unsafe approaches), and that your local Steve hasn't found the answer to your way of camping
I would say that the strategy is working against the player, but a counterargument could be Little Mac vs anyone, and how it wouldn't be crazy to say "just throw him offstage" is an effective strategy. Maybe an objective look is to compare the characters' options in situations that would commonly arise from using that strategy, and the relative difficulty to "win" in a situation (what are the possible outcomes' effects on win conditions? what's the frequency of this situation if we play like this?). Since it's a fighting game and situations would overlap heavily across all strategies, I think that playing strategies (even only partially) inherently leaks habits, which is the biggest factor in winning
Is there a link to get this training mod?
Really good video
Simple answer: Be a Billy.
Now do one on how to deal with jump happy players.
Anti air
Where do I get that training room though I tried beat master hand too
I'm playing a friend of mine. I'm a Pit main and even though I can beat him with many of his other characters, I can't beat his captain falcon. I can edgeguard, ledgetrap and rule an advantage state about as good as him but it's hard for me to gain advantage state. Does anyone know how to deal with neutral Mix-ups (cf has grab, raptor boost and air to ground approaches, and falcon kick and I'm having trouble figuring out how to win neutral).
Tweek sent me
Cheers for the info
Should make a video about how to play from a deficit
This man looks stoned
Ok now that you've taken the time to generalize these options and responses to button mashing
Now take the time to show us every character's button mashing option in the game and how you should respond
This is a University is it not?
Where's my information
I don't want to read a textbook saying America was founded in a day
We must elaborate further!
Knowledge is power
More content!
Thank you
Would I be able to play against u sometime 😊
No Dark theme on twitter. My eyes 😫
Void sent me!
Thank you
15:11 and then there's brawler who's -2
Bro u good u look like you need a hug and some rest
Will the training mode mod attract attention from the Nintendo ninjas
Nah u good, just look up a guide to make sure that you know what you’re doing.
I see. I only have one switch and I assumed most or any mod could get your switch banned.
This mod could be worth the effort
how can i get this training mod
havent even watched the video yet but this is a GREAT topic
Why the f is Bayo up tilt on that spam list? It's like -12 on shield, has bad range and isn't even a good move
wouldnt try to punish roy dtilt, you lose everytime he doesent attack right away
I want to buy it but is it worth it in 2021 ?
yeahp
23:46 A message for Twitter
Void sent me here👌
What’s that training mod? It looks like uncle punch
Tweek sent me here
Came from VoiD
Void sent me
What I want to now is how to deal with all the rude toxic people that complain ever time dlc comes out if it’s not then its the political correctness freaks. Smash was racists by not choosing the black female character from arms. The persona five has a song in it that’s offensive to people with learning disability. No pyra and Methyra our not a male fan service power fetish fantasy playable character.
How do I download the training mod thing?
Search "training mode mod", it's a mod
Where is void?
idk man none of this seems like its going to help me as a piranha plant main getting ran down by mashing roys lmao
what, parry more and hope a faster character spaces worse on accident?
none of this feels like it has to do with *mashing*, just priority and advantage
i might as well pick a new main instead of playing what i enjoy if frames are all there is to worry about
I came bc I main captain falcon and was annoyed by mashing mythras. Do I have answers to my problem? Hmmm not really lmao
Alot of her buttons are - on shield you can usually punish mashing with grabs on bad spacing or catching the option after you shield
Boy look faded lmao
Is it true you get less stun with stale moves?
yes, check out ruben's smash calculator
Lesgo VoiD
Great content though I prefer the edited and more concise type of video. Having a script could help with that!
Dashhhhbaccccckkkk
I wish this game didn't punish poor gameplay so much, I'm tired of losing to better players 😪
I feel the opposite. I lose to worse players who all use a textbook style but can't be punished due to the lag online and being completely unpredictable by mashing when I who would assume better options from an actual good player.
@@obmarte3803 I was just joking with this, cause smash players complain about everything so I was just trolling
how can i get a training mod
just get one
Bam look ash 👀