That cylinder is a mass dampener also known as a J dampener in physics.The purpose is to neutralize high frequency low amplitude oscillations.Mass dampeners are currently used in Moto GP and were banned in F1 in the mid 2000s.The mass dampener can also be placed on the fork,above the bottom bracket and as shown on the rear swing arm/triangle on a full suspension bike.
As with most of everything that is being used and tried is something that is just being carried over from some other sport and just adapted to the application. Should we just call it "shake weight".
Dak, I know you put a ton of pressure on yourself but me and other normies are extremely impressed by your massively improved mental game. Yeah it hurts emotionally to not achieve your goal but from most people’s perspective you did fantastic. Every year you get better.
Some submachine guns use metal filings or sand in the bolt carrier to stop bolt bounce. Same as a dead blow mallet. It essentially helps dissipate energy. Would be cool if it was a mass suspended by springs similar to a j damper.
A valve/ weight suspended in oil and probably lightly sprung from either side is my guess. I’d imagine you could add or subtract tungsten weights and the valve would be adjustable to fine tune the mechanism
that is not a j-damper. J-dampers are connected between the moving part and the main frame. The suspension movement is transferred to flywheels by a cog rail. what you are describing is a mass damper. If the mass has been determined by smart people, it becomes a tuned mass damper.
idk if he meant to say it. he didn't react for a 5:43 he says weight at the axle so my theory is most likely right he's running weight to keep that back wheel down and maybe balance the bike a bit by putting weight opposite the cassette.
If it was for weight they would not have made the fixture out of 3D printed titanium (looks like titanium but could be alu too) AND make "cutouts" in it to shave of some weight, if it was for weight they would have made it out of a heavy material too, same with the canister. It's a mass-damper, 95% sure, you want the fixture and "shell" to be as lightweight as possible to not add to much unsprung weight, the weight in it is the important weight, not the casing. Also, if it was purely for weight, they would just have bolted some tungsten plates onto the screws and and not go through all the effort of 3D printing metal AND machining a canister
It has to be a mass damper. I cant imagine just adding more unsprung mass would do much good. But I can imagine something like that perhaps reducing unwanted oscillations in the rear triangle, depending on bike. The only real question is: What's inside? Lead or gold? 😅
This definitely seems the most likely explanation. Especially as he refuses to say 'mass dampener' multiple times - Almost like there's been an NDA signed with those words specifically quoted in it. That, on top of all the talk about minimizing vibrations by changing the frequency points to a mass dampener imo.
Would the cylinder work with viscous liquid to absorb the vibration? I can only imagine how smooth the riding would feel. I would use liquid and make a center divider with slots top and bottom to allow circulation of the liquid instead of sloshing up and down. That way the liquid will be able to absorb more vibration
Sounds like a fluid damper, there are high performance fluid dampers for cars that connects the crank to the accessories belt that absorbs vibration of the crank for higher rpms, it can help to slow down fast motions, on the rear because it's where there is more unsprung wheight, on a rock section for example the bumps will be throwing the unsprung wheight up and this can help reduce some of that, it's important because it's weight that isn't being absorbed by the shock only by the tire, basically it's an oil and it has a baffle system inside, this is just my theory and on paper it sounds reasonable, also the further back the more imfluence this damper will have, is it enough to make a difference? Thought something like this would have to at least weight 100grams of fluid mass...
tuned mass damper for the disc vibrations, might improve braking, likely not needed on the front as fork fluid itself does the same thing. that small a mass is not going to meaningfully impact overall frame vibrations
Amazing that the racing world is rediscovering these now. Fun fact: They were on all 4 wheels of the least performance vehicle of all, the original 2CV in 1949! Those were (partially?) oil filled. Have fun playing and you're welcome, AndyB
I played in one as a young kid, my uncle had one in storage. Although I am mechanically inclined and have a fondness for those death traps it’s something that I didn’t know about them, thank you !
Let’s not forget the fact that Dakota Norton is still using wired Apple ear buds in 2024. From his bars, to his speed and to his choice of earphones, the guys pretty unique. 😮
I fill all my bars with spray foam insulation. It weighs nothing, but it makes a noticeable difference damping vibrations. What they should do is fill the whole frame with it. Although, it might damage carbon, I’m not sure. Some are running something similar to the mass damper inside the fork tube, where you can’t see it.
i thought "damper" was to deaden or dull. and that "dampener" involves get something wet/to make something damp and not related to the concept of suspension/vibration
As an engineer I dare confidently say that it's a Tuned Mass Damper. And I don't understand the reason for the secrecy. Any competitors engineer is going to figure that out by just looking at where it's placed
That's the low hanging fruit. But why near the axle and not the main frame if it is just to calm the ride? Maybe that way they can run faster rebound or higher tire pressure without the wheel starting to hop exessively. The TMD is tuned to just one frequency. It seems a lot easier to determine a frequency you want to calm on a street racing vehicle. But a DH bike with such ground variation?
Think of every component up the chain to the arms starting with the tires. Starting with FIRST PRINCIPALS, essentially anything that can vibrate and is coupled to other components will transmit resonant frequencies/energy throughout the system. If you can prevent the energy transfer in the first place, you can eliminate these bandaid damper hacks. BTW, when you hear these mystical people talking about raising their frequency, they are full of BS! High frequencies suck! For instance, forks are designed to absorb large input perturbations such as rocks, ruts, roots, jumps, etc. and some of the smaller stuff. The vibrations that mess with your eyes are the coming from the residual energy that still comes up from that wheel/fork and even passed in through the rear shock/rear wheel and triangle. If you want to get first hand what the energy "feels like", just grab a bare wheel and bang it against the concrete floor. Those vibrations are what I'm talking about that get into your bike system up to your bars/grips. You could use different wheel material (steel, aluminum, carbon fiber) or apply a dampening material applied to the wheel which probably adds weight and other issues. Same idea applies to the forks, bars, etc. Materials that deaden sound would work but also add weight. Front end: 1. front tire/tube pressure, tire compound, tread pattern 2. wheel/spokes 3. Fork - stanchions, internal fork components, stem 4. rear shock 5. Bars/grips Rear end: 1. rear tire/tube pressure, tire compound, tread pattern 2. wheel/spokes/chain rings 3. rear triangle 4. rear shock 5. pedals/bottom bracket/cranks The dampers applied to the rear wheel drop out area address vibrations transmitted from the rear wheel. But this adds more unsprung weight to the bike. Dampers added bottom bracket are probably intended to attenuate resonances from both front and rear wheels as well as lower the center of gravity due to the added weight. So the dampers may work but will introduce lag due to the added weight. It's all a compromise.
its weight. like the others are running weights under their bottom bracket to center the bike. maybe he is running weight on the back to try and keep the back end down. he says its for grip and that's all I could think of
I think you need to read up on physics and the idea of sprung vs unsprung weight. Yes, obviously they have weight, but it`s not just straight up weight, it has to be internally suspended in some way to be beneficial.
It looks like ABS and a counter weight vs the RD cogs. There's diaphragm inside, I think a stiff spring. May the top cap opens the pressure gauge. It's so obvious bec it's on the brake side. Locking brakes are prone to skidding, hence losing traction.
Chevy installed two of these canisters in the trunk of the first gen Camaro convertible. They absorbed the harmonics of the flimsy unibody flexing/vibrating over bumps. High tech back in the 60's.
While TMDs can theoretically be applied to the unsprung mass (such as wheels, tires, and suspension components), they are less commonly used in this context because the primary goal of suspension tuning is to control the behavior of the sprung mass to enhance ride quality and handling. We have seen them on DH uppder crowns this week online however! , TMDs are more typically utilized on the sprung mass to address issues related to vibrations and resonance, improving overall vehicle dynamics." Pretty much the piggy back of ballance
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
That cylinder is a mass dampener also known as a J dampener in physics.The purpose is to neutralize high frequency low amplitude oscillations.Mass dampeners are currently used in Moto GP and were banned in F1 in the mid 2000s.The mass dampener can also be placed on the fork,above the bottom bracket and as shown on the rear swing arm/triangle on a full suspension bike.
I doubt it. There's no good reason for them wanting to make the mass damp or lessen the mass by adding more weight. It's probably a mass damper.
As with most of everything that is being used and tried is something that is just being carried over from some other sport and just adapted to the application. Should we just call it "shake weight".
Isn't the Rockshox buttercup effectively a mass dampener?
A J damper and a mass damper are two different things.
Might be a large washer inbetween two elastomers or springs.....but what do I know.
Dak, I know you put a ton of pressure on yourself but me and other normies are extremely impressed by your massively improved mental game. Yeah it hurts emotionally to not achieve your goal but from most people’s perspective you did fantastic. Every year you get better.
Hell yeah! Amen to that bro
the forbidden shake weight
Some submachine guns use metal filings or sand in the bolt carrier to stop bolt bounce. Same as a dead blow mallet. It essentially helps dissipate energy. Would be cool if it was a mass suspended by springs similar to a j damper.
A valve/ weight suspended in oil and probably lightly sprung from either side is my guess.
I’d imagine you could add or subtract tungsten weights and the valve would be adjustable to fine tune the mechanism
that is not a j-damper. J-dampers are connected between the moving part and the main frame. The suspension movement is transferred to flywheels by a cog rail. what you are describing is a mass damper. If the mass has been determined by smart people, it becomes a tuned mass damper.
@@a.r.8850 that’s why I said similar to a j damper
idk if he meant to say it. he didn't react for a 5:43 he says weight at the axle so my theory is most likely right he's running weight to keep that back wheel down and maybe balance the bike a bit by putting weight opposite the cassette.
If it was for weight they would not have made the fixture out of 3D printed titanium (looks like titanium but could be alu too) AND make "cutouts" in it to shave of some weight, if it was for weight they would have made it out of a heavy material too, same with the canister. It's a mass-damper, 95% sure, you want the fixture and "shell" to be as lightweight as possible to not add to much unsprung weight, the weight in it is the important weight, not the casing. Also, if it was purely for weight, they would just have bolted some tungsten plates onto the screws and and not go through all the effort of 3D printing metal AND machining a canister
It contains a weight suspended in oil.
@@Jeppelellevery good point. This is why I read the comments. Thanks
It is the „my time will come“ attatchment.
It has to be a mass damper. I cant imagine just adding more unsprung mass would do much good. But I can imagine something like that perhaps reducing unwanted oscillations in the rear triangle, depending on bike.
The only real question is: What's inside? Lead or gold? 😅
A weighted piece of something suspended in a viscous somethjng.
This definitely seems the most likely explanation. Especially as he refuses to say 'mass dampener' multiple times - Almost like there's been an NDA signed with those words specifically quoted in it.
That, on top of all the talk about minimizing vibrations by changing the frequency points to a mass dampener imo.
The ones I’m familiar with for shooting sports are mercury filled.
Powdered tungsten is used in archery dampers
Flux capacitor
Could it be to counter-act the forces of unsprung mass at higher speeds?
Don't worry, they'll soon be available in a plastic variant for just 349 bucks.
Would the cylinder work with viscous liquid to absorb the vibration? I can only imagine how smooth the riding would feel. I would use liquid and make a center divider with slots top and bottom to allow circulation of the liquid instead of sloshing up and down. That way the liquid will be able to absorb more vibration
Sounds like a fluid damper, there are high performance fluid dampers for cars that connects the crank to the accessories belt that absorbs vibration of the crank for higher rpms, it can help to slow down fast motions, on the rear because it's where there is more unsprung wheight, on a rock section for example the bumps will be throwing the unsprung wheight up and this can help reduce some of that, it's important because it's weight that isn't being absorbed by the shock only by the tire, basically it's an oil and it has a baffle system inside, this is just my theory and on paper it sounds reasonable, also the further back the more imfluence this damper will have, is it enough to make a difference? Thought something like this would have to at least weight 100grams of fluid mass...
tuned mass damper for the disc vibrations, might improve braking, likely not needed on the front as fork fluid itself does the same thing. that small a mass is not going to meaningfully impact overall frame vibrations
seems like recoiless mallet with leadshot inside)
Amazing that the racing world is rediscovering these now. Fun fact: They were on all 4 wheels of the least performance vehicle of all, the original 2CV in 1949! Those were (partially?) oil filled. Have fun playing and you're welcome, AndyB
I played in one as a young kid, my uncle had one in storage. Although I am mechanically inclined and have a fondness for those death traps it’s something that I didn’t know about them, thank you !
Let’s not forget the fact that Dakota Norton is still using wired Apple ear buds in 2024. From his bars, to his speed and to his choice of earphones, the guys pretty unique. 😮
It's better for sound quality for the interview!
That new Saint caliper looks sweet too
Yep, very neat !
Probably XTR
Disc Cooler?
I fill all my bars with spray foam insulation. It weighs nothing, but it makes a noticeable difference damping vibrations. What they should do is fill the whole frame with it. Although, it might damage carbon, I’m not sure. Some are running something similar to the mass damper inside the fork tube, where you can’t see it.
Can definietly be done. Originally carbon was wrapped around a foam core and the foam was later melted with acid... Carbon is very resistant
i thought "damper" was to deaden or dull. and that "dampener" involves get something wet/to make something damp and not related to the concept of suspension/vibration
Like that hammer doesn’t recoil
Its a Calmnister.
Fox already filed a patent for a tuned mass damper inside the fork, which is probably being tested in dak’s bike..
As an engineer I dare confidently say that it's a Tuned Mass Damper. And I don't understand the reason for the secrecy. Any competitors engineer is going to figure that out by just looking at where it's placed
That's the low hanging fruit. But why near the axle and not the main frame if it is just to calm the ride? Maybe that way they can run faster rebound or higher tire pressure without the wheel starting to hop exessively. The TMD is tuned to just one frequency. It seems a lot easier to determine a frequency you want to calm on a street racing vehicle. But a DH bike with such ground variation?
Hasn’t Rossignol been doing this since about 1983?
Russel Brand is a mad rider.
I'm about to put a whole bottle of sealant in each tire.
idk why he cant talk about weighting he's back tire. it not aerospace tech. and if everyone else is doing it why hide it????
I bet they all signed an NDA
Reminds me of the fox/ specialized epic reservoir for the Brain shock. Maybe same concept(?)
with wireless bluetooth conection to the shock canister, yeah)
It totally has powedered tungsten in it
Brb filling my frame, handlebars, tires, and water bottle with sand.
Its simple, they are trying to change the resonance frequencies of the bike 🤷
Need to make a tuning fork . Which counter balance the hit.
What would inside of it?
A weight suspended on a spring
Or lead sand in nitrogen as a deadblow. Alot of weight in a small package out back could help settle the rear tire
Yeh mass damper similar to what Renault were doing with the F1 cars back in the early 2000s
Think of every component up the chain to the arms starting with the tires. Starting with FIRST PRINCIPALS, essentially anything that can vibrate and is coupled to other components will transmit resonant frequencies/energy throughout the system. If you can prevent the energy transfer in the first place, you can eliminate these bandaid damper hacks. BTW, when you hear these mystical people talking about raising their frequency, they are full of BS! High frequencies suck!
For instance, forks are designed to absorb large input perturbations such as rocks, ruts, roots, jumps, etc. and some of the smaller stuff. The vibrations that mess with your eyes are the coming from the residual energy that still comes up from that wheel/fork and even passed in through the rear shock/rear wheel and triangle. If you want to get first hand what the energy "feels like", just grab a bare wheel and bang it against the concrete floor. Those vibrations are what I'm talking about that get into your bike system up to your bars/grips.
You could use different wheel material (steel, aluminum, carbon fiber) or apply a dampening material applied to the wheel which probably adds weight and other issues. Same idea applies to the forks, bars, etc. Materials that deaden sound would work but also add weight.
Front end:
1. front tire/tube pressure, tire compound, tread pattern
2. wheel/spokes
3. Fork - stanchions, internal fork components, stem
4. rear shock
5. Bars/grips
Rear end:
1. rear tire/tube pressure, tire compound, tread pattern
2. wheel/spokes/chain rings
3. rear triangle
4. rear shock
5. pedals/bottom bracket/cranks
The dampers applied to the rear wheel drop out area address vibrations transmitted from the rear wheel. But this adds more unsprung weight to the bike.
Dampers added bottom bracket are probably intended to attenuate resonances from both front and rear wheels as well as lower the center of gravity due to the added weight.
So the dampers may work but will introduce lag due to the added weight. It's all a compromise.
Seems like it’s just a weight offset from the derailleur.
I'm guessing lead sand in nitrogen as a deadblow stated above
Looks like a nonlinear sand damper, it's a relatively new thing unlike previously seen mass dampers the secret is in the ball. Nah really. Balls. 😂
You can put your weed in there!
its weight. like the others are running weights under their bottom bracket to center the bike. maybe he is running weight on the back to try and keep the back end down. he says its for grip and that's all I could think of
If it was a simple weight it would no be that complex looking.
It's 100% not
" guys we need to add extra weight to our bikes"
Also:
"Guys our bike are too heavy to pedal we need to add an engine" 😂
I think you need to read up on physics and the idea of sprung vs unsprung weight.
Yes, obviously they have weight, but it`s not just straight up weight, it has to be internally suspended in some way to be beneficial.
Maybe it is filled with oil and big gold marble?
It’s effectively the handle bar weights on motorbikes
It looks like ABS and a counter weight vs the RD cogs. There's diaphragm inside, I think a stiff spring. May the top cap opens the pressure gauge. It's so obvious bec it's on the brake side. Locking brakes are prone to skidding, hence losing traction.
Dynamic damper
Unspung weight?
Chevy installed two of these canisters in the trunk of the first gen Camaro convertible. They absorbed the harmonics of the flimsy unibody flexing/vibrating over bumps. High tech back in the 60's.
Every season, bikes move away from fun having machines to some fucking formula 1 bs to sell shit for even more money
Forks would give low frequency vibrations, rear end would give high frequency vibrations.
Eyeballs and high frequency 💥
Basically we have made downhill bikes too light.
While TMDs can theoretically be applied to the unsprung mass (such as wheels, tires, and suspension components), they are less commonly used in this context because the primary goal of suspension tuning is to control the behavior of the sprung mass to enhance ride quality and handling. We have seen them on DH uppder crowns this week online however!
, TMDs are more typically utilized on the sprung mass to address issues related to vibrations and resonance, improving overall vehicle dynamics." Pretty much the piggy back of ballance
Cop sleuthing for his stash
The Formula 1 fans Renault what that is.
They are filled with oil....
Once you figure our what your talking about let us know.
He’s clueless to the tuning
That's just ridiculous. Why not balance the wheels then?