More companies need to realize that being brave and honest as Pivot has been to do an interview like this, raises your brand integrity for the better by a factor of 10 fold.
A better method would be not putting your riders in danger with bikes that fold like a cheap lawn chair. Reminds me of the Titan Sub, but without the designer suffering the consequences.
@@Videomorgue they all but said that in the interview, we are happy to take this risk as it’s cheaper, but it’s the riders who take the risk, shouldn’t they decide?
There's a guy that's local to me and has a UA-cam channel. One of the bike shops was there with a tent. I was talking to one of the guys and the UA-camr rolled up. They made a comment about his new Pivot frame. Not sure which model but it was a nice light green metallic. He was relaying that he paid 1k for a new frame under crash warranty. Then he said it really wasn't a crash but that his bottom bracket hit a rock and broke his frame. I guess from being an outsider listening, that he didn't 100% get denied a crash replacement for 1k was good. He didn't get hurt which is the most important thing unlike the brand Orange who really did a UA-camr wrong after his frame broke and he got injured. Back in the early days of carbon fiber there were some fatalities. I think that was a wakeup call for a lot of brands to start over building them, hence the weight difference isn't like it used to be when carbon was really light. I ride all carbon, including rims. I frequently look it over to make sure I don't see any cracked paint from stress fractures. I'm just glad Bernard didn't get hurt, and I'm sure Pivot will do everything possible to make sure they stay on top of quality.
Cracked frames are the dirty secret of the mountain biking industry. Huge respect to Pivot for being so open and honest about the issues. More manufacturers need to do this.
The frame wasn't actually cracked, it's more like the carbon tubes linked by piece of metal in the front of the bike "fell off" of it, like the piece of metal separated itself from the carbon.
Saw a vid about santa cruz making a rider pay because it crack it the way it wasnt intended for the design. Basically the rider made a small drop but landed on a loose rock. That loose rock hit the frame, so it's no covered under their "lifetime warranty". I'd never buy carbon bikes, and from santa cruz. First, all trails I go to have loose rocks. 2nd, if you're a company and sell your bike lifetime warranty, shouldn't you back your product? I have 2 santa cruz sitting in garage, those are the last frame I buy from them.
This video is a marketing masterpiece ! How to turn a major and public frame breakage into an advertisement for the quality and passion of those bikes ! These marketing people need a huge bonus
And it shows that Pivot takes this seriously. I’ve had 5 pivots and their quality is second to none. As an engineering Director in Aerospace I can tell you stuff like this happens. What separates great companies from mediocre ones is how respond to adversity. From afar, it seems their response is text book for a segment leader.
This is the best way to handle it. Straight forward with honesty. The engineers found the root cause. Addressing it any other way would do way more harm to Pivot. I have no doubt that Pivot as a company will get this behind them and strive to be even better than there already are.
I was thinking the same thing. This looks like a "documentary" about an incident. But it's actually a paid PR piece via the biggest mtn biking media platform.
Testing to failure is a well-respected path to success. Pivot - you guys rock. This video puts more confidence in Pivot as a brand - not less. PB - best video of the year. Well done!!
When the accident happened, I was like, "F...Pivot and its prototype". And I dont think I was alone in that. However, Pivot didnt hide; owned the mistake and corrected it. After the accident, BK continued riding as a madman (see new Hardline feature) and the prototype held its ground. And now Pivot owns the mistake once more and moves on with a new version of the Phoenix 29. Good for them and BK.
In engineering the idea of a prototype is to test concepts and ensure the theory is realised in reality. Often this results in failures (fail fast, Learn and move forwards) so BK breaking a prototype should be no surprise. Better break a few prototypes than 100’s of production bikes. I think that’s one of the reasons for running a pro team also.
BK is probably the greatest ambassador for Mtnbiking, he’s a fantastic mentor to newer riders ( not just his own team). Thank you Pivot for supporting him and building great bikes for them.
I have loved watching the development of this bike, and super cool seeing some more of the behind the scenes. I really appreciate pivot being so open with this process, so many companies do all the work behind closed doors, which i get but I love seeing the process and the upgrades, the ups and downs. I will be a pivot fan for life and always support the teams.
I agree the open times on the glue and contamination on lugs from people touching them etc won't help but the fact the 2 tubes went into the lug parallel to eachother is what makes it possible for them to pull out. Combined with the lug only bonding to the outside of the tube is just less strong than how Atherton does their frames for example.
They admit to acid etching the aluminium but when you do so the acid is never neutralised so it will continue corroding the alloy indefinitely. The way they applied the bonding glue is amateur, if you don't actually physically press it into the pores of the material it will just sit on-top, most contract and shrink while curing so it will not expand into the pores
That is hardly the reason. The bond takes the most load and those are shearing forces. I wouldn't be surprised if the mechanical interlock of tubes connected in a triangle could be overcome with one hand.
@@a.r.8850I'm not an engineer, but having bonded 10cm square 1.2mm thick pieces of steel to foam with some bendy sheet plastic over the top, in order to hang an adult bed off it, for an international trailer manufacturer, I can assure you that the ONLY strength that bonded material has is when it's loaded in sheer. Anything else and it'll just peel off. It's always the problem with high end tech and engineers pushing the limits. It requires the product to be manufactured PERFECTLY, or it WILL fail. Hence the reason I don't walk on those glass floors 40 stories up in buildings with an over hang. I just don't trust that it's been made perfectly or hasn't been compromised since installation. If Pivot is full of engineers and geeks, I have every faith they know what they're doing. All info on how to use the glue, best practices in prep, etc. will all have come from the manufacturers of the carbon sheet and the bonding agent. So anyone else using the same products will be building bikes using the same process. It's not like Pivot have invented the carbon and the glue and are using a best guess attitude to how to put it all together. Massive kudos for owning up to their mistake and explaining what went wrong on camera. No-one else in the industry would have done that. Well done Pivot.
I heard the term etch used but no specific mention of acid. Aluminium can be electrolytically etched too, as in anodising, which also gives a surface suitable for adhesive adsorption.🎉
great video, I was watching the race when BK face planted and I held my breath. Fantastic that he was alright. Not sure you have explained exactly what failed and why, but it was interesting to watch.
Pivot and South Mountain are synonymous, if you can make a bike that will last out there it usually last anywhere. Kerr is an absolute beast and AZ is awesome!
As a casual bystander, I would have liked to see a little more of the frame failure details and a short comment from BK on the incident. Just curious since it was the basis of the story.
My gut told me the split second I watched that race incident that I bet the carbon was unbonding itself from the lugs that made this happen. I also said that this could happen to any manufacturer, and this is what prototyping is. It's not a finished product, but a product in the making. Personally I own a Switchblade and that video had no effect on me, because it's got nothing to do with my bike at all. It also didn't matter to me as of trust in the company, because as I mentioned above this was a prototype bike. I've also seen how professional they have been with the whole thing, so this video being released now is simply a testament of that very thing. If you ask me, I think even Ladaman would approve.
The comments about the cornering characteristics of common high pivot bikes resonates. I briefly owned a Druid v2 after decades of virtual pivot type bikes of varying layouts. It’s was alarming how unpredictable cornering was. I went back to a VPP type layout, Maestro specifically, that provides a degree of rearward/upward axle path and the predictability returned.
For a "documentary" about a serious incident, there was a lot of marketing angles and shiny slow-mo shots of the new bike. Yeah there was some well edited candid interviews (nothing too scathing)...but the whole thing smelled like reverse marketing for Pivot. These days the lines between editorial and marketing are so f*cked-up.
The first thing I thought seeing this video is "I want a bike from Pivot" not "Oh Pivot makes bikes that break." When a company is honest, it pays. Especially in todays market, regardless of the field.
Of course this marketing piece is part of convincing you them being "honest". Also, don't you notice how they subliminally condition you from the beginning saying and repeating several times that they get their bikes tested to failure (don't big brand bikes do?). Bam! And now they got you. 😅 Sure... things do break. But something breaking catastrophically at the pinnacle of DH racing is totally unacceptable.
@@ericsn6158 not really. Breaking things is necessary for finding the limitations of the bike, so they can figure out what to do to fix it. And its the most important because its the one people have been lusting over since that lugged prototype was shown off, and the one everyone has been talking about
Great vid. I am too old and broken for down hill now. The energy and honesty that the guys in Pivot brought to the table makes me want to buy one anyway. Keep it up guys :)
I love the honesty and humility from everyone on the Pivot team. Kudos to you. This is how you improve and create really great products. Sometimes things just break…
Of course this marketing piece is part of convincing you them being "honest". Also, don't you notice how they subliminally condition you from the beginning saying and repeating several times that they get their bikes tested to failure (don't big brand bikes do?). Bam! And now they got you. 😅 Sure... things do break. But something breaking catastrophically at the pinnacle of DH racing is totally unacceptable.
It’s actually great to see that the reason for the debonding of Bernard’s bike is that they were doing a demo of the process to the media and they took just a bit too much time doing it. I’m glad the video quickly explains what happened and then moves on. Seemingly minor issues like that can make the difference between winning a race and eating dirt!
I FINALLY pulled the trigger on a Mach 4SL after deciding the Epic SWorks was just too harsh. Initially I was concerned because in my mind I was already riding the fastest, highest quality XC bike available. I was so wrong. The Mach 4 SL is simply more comfortable while have a similar race geometry and completely solid and silent. Maybe a comparison would be between a Chevy Camaro (EPIC) to a BMW M SERIES. I’m rambling. Sorry. If your looking for a seriously nice XC bike try the Pivot. It’s so good
@@ericsn6158 yeah sure. But what isn't a marketing video I'm MTB nowadays? I'm a little disappointed because the whole video didn't go into dept as I would have liked to
9:26 THIS! "hell yeah you should be worried!" And proceed to bring the bikes in and build new bikes. In the whole spectrum of things the brand could do in this situation, for all the reasons that such decisions are based, such descisions also show the base posture and mindset of the brand. For such type of company, the cost of a decision like this for Pivot could be scary high, and avoiding such cost is a logic step. Just not the right one. And this atitude shows their principles, at least to me, and those are to make it right after mistakes. Which is natural for companies because companies are made of people, and people can and will make mistakes. I never looked into Pivot much. But I respect this A LOT.
I wasn't crazy about that mixed frame design. So glad BK walked away from that catastrophic failure and the new Phoenix design is killer, albeit a little late. As the saying goes, better late than never. Hope to see BK take Red Bull Hardline one more time on this frame.
I remember when sem came out with metal to metal high strength glue. In the beginning all the salesmen sold this product as " it's stronger than a weld". Well years later that is no longer the case. Personally, I wouldn't ride a bike with a frame that has 2 different materials glued together. Pivot does make a great bike though no doubt.
Wow, only excuses and nothing else. Just have seen yesterday what crap Pivot is building. Not enough spacers for the fork so that it is moving and no secured screw for the crank that this was getting loose. Pivot = High Price and low Quality
I don't understand how people think it's bad for this to have happened. Bernard is paid to break these frames so we don't. This actually made me more likely to buy a Pivot bike than not. They stand behind their products out front in the open for all to see. I would rather that than hidden on private land trails and everything on the bike hidden or covered up. But then again I'm a Gen X'r and we broke bikes daily pushing the boundaries of what was thought possible.
I looked at a Pivot a couple months ago based on their reputation. I will however never buy and other frame with a pressfit BB again. I have a 100% failure rate on 2/2 frames of them compared to not a singe failure on a threaded BB going back to my 78 Paramount that hangs above my desk right now. That is something like 15 other bikes. Shame as they seem like a very good company. I purchased a SC Megatower frame instead and will be building it up this winter. Perhaps Pivot has better tolerances and manufacturing, but that is what I was also told about my Cervello that squeaked like a MF the last time I had it outside.
I liked the video, its interesting but also an example of good crisis management. While it was good they found the source of the fault, they could have reassured by saying something like " we reproduced the problem joint and confirmed it was (say, 5x) weaker than a proper joint. And we changed procedures so the mistake would be impossible to ever happen again."
I don't understand why it failed though - in the video he says that the part with the glue was left out too long. Didn't the frame snap though? How would having a poorly bonded part from the glue sitting out too long cause a frame to snap?
The adhesive failed because the bike smacked into a tree hard on practice before the final run. Bernard commented at the time on how much the bike compressed. It was lucky he wasn’t hurt in that incident.
The part in the beginning where they kept repating over and over about the breaking, testing to failure, etc... is just subliminal conditioning. And some are so easily swayed.
@@vilimiryordanov8502 Its basicall carbon - aluminium - carbon and the aluminium has different electric characteristics than the carbon which is why corrosion might appear at the joints. We always tried to avoid that by adding an insulating layer of glass fibre on the joint
@@lukaslanger5068 as long as the resin and bonding material insulate the carbon from the aluminium, galvanic corrosion shouldn't be an issue. Was this a case here? Hard to say.
BK was fukin cruising and 50/50’d a triple. When you are riding at that level no bike is invincible. Coming from BMX to Mtb I don’t understand the big deal when someone breaks a frame.
This makes me want to buy a Pivot more now, rather than less. Why more brands don't recognize this is beyond me. . Companies really need to start realizing that transparency is a great thing for us customers... Personally I know that I've never come away feeling less confident (in a product) after the company reports on a failure. It's as simple as that.
Unfortunately all you get from this is: they don’t really know why the lugs broke other than they might have left the glue to long but not sure I think it’s a great thing to use for testing stage but I wouldn’t spend my money on one, and when it’s private money you have to worry about the glue age etc
Great news, no one in the world can buy one that is glued in like that. That was only for prototype testing. The production model that's available for purchase is full carbon with no lugs and no glue.
@@glennbroad2543 You can think whatever you want. Just because you think things doesn't make them true. Pivot was talking about that frame before the break happened and had said their intention was not to sell it as a lugged bike. According to them, they were doing the lugged design in order to be able to change geometry/kinematics easily and be able to dial in their bike before going to a full carbon build. People have been doing lugged bikes for years so it's not like the Atherton bike (which is a sick bike) all the sudden gave them permission to follow suit. According to an interview (I THINK it was a podcast, I can't remember which anymore) the designer had said the lugged construction was not going to be for sale and was being used only for ease of iterating prototypes with a full carbon model to follow at the conclusion of development.
Great film! Except all the weird music and sounds! Love the bravery of every e involved to talk about this ! I’d still buy a pivot!! Except I’m a poor teacher!lol
I'm a bike mechanic, I do DH for hobby as well! 15 years ago, I was working at Airbus, producing Carbon fiber Airplane parts..... First, I will never buy or ride a carbon frame! It is a high tech and high end material, of course! But stones and rocks, and impacts after Fu.. Ed Up landings are just " old School" frame killers🤣😎‼️ Second thing : the bikes become too expensive! A good alloy DH Bike with porno parts costs 5 to max 7 thousand dollars. Santa crus, Trek and pivot just double those prices......
All I heard in this video was a theory on why the frame failed. No further investigation or tests to back it up. Piss poor root cause analysis. Video then proceeds with a lot of Pivot warm fuzzy stuff. I have nothing against Pivot, but the contents of this video fell far short of what the title claims.
Bullshit. He said they analyzed the frames made before and after and couldnt find bonding issues. And they replaced all the frames of all the riders just to be sure. And guess what, not another failure since then.
@@Ganiscolsome people refuse to be satisfied. Yet I'm sure their favorite company has had failures, I guess it's nice for them to have not been broadcast live. Some serious head in the sand logic.
To my knowledge it started off with roadbikes not long after carbon monocque frames coming into use. So about 20 years ago i think.. I love it how people were saying Pivot was copying Atherton, but they didnt say the same about Specialized Gravity. The only reason Specialized didnt look "like an Atherton" was because they used Ohlins suspension. If Specialized Gravity used Fox like Atherton & Pivot did, then Specialized would have looked "like an Atherton" too. Actually more so because Specialized used carbon lugs, like Atherton did, vs Pivot who used CNC machined lugs.. And yet after all that, Atherton werent even the first to use lugs, just the first WC MTB frame to..
Is this an advertorial? I can't believe the comments below, all in support of Pivot 'owning' the massive huge blunder on live TV. Pivot better hope it doesn't happen again on live TV.
@@chrisanderson8578 I don't need to, I'm sure people are smart enough to see through it for what it is. Sure, you will have your die hard Pivot fans that will cherish the moment Pivot 'owned' up to it and they will post glowing and loving comments. On the other hand, Pivot has a problem, there's people like me who will never go near a Pivot because there was the one time on live TV their frame snapped for the whole world to see. Notwithstanding the frame in question would/should have had the best of engineering and construction along with every conceivable inspection etc. No amount of brainwashing advertorials will change our mind and the reason is MTB can be deadly and you're a second away from a life changing injury. We know the risks but we still do it, do you really want to be on a bike that you can't trust. For example, I don't recall ever seeing a Pivot at Red Bull Rampage (I might be wrong) but I can't recall one.
@@chrisanderson8578 I don't need to, I'm sure people are smart enough to see through it for what it is. Sure, you will have your die hard Pivot fans that will cherish the moment Pivot 'owned' up to it and they will post glowing and loving comments. On the other hand, Pivot has a problem, there's people like me who will never go near a Pivot because there was the one time on live TV their frame snapped for the whole world to see. Notwithstanding the frame in question would/should have had the best of engineering and construction along with every conceivable inspection etc. No amount of brainwashing advertorials will change our mind and the reason is MTB can be deadly and you're a second away from a life changing injury. We know the risks but we still do it, do you really want to be on a bike that you can't trust. For example, I don't recall ever seeing a Pivot at Red Bull Rampage (I might be wrong) but I can't recall one.
Has anyone noticed that the Phoenix has the same chain stay length for every size? From reach sizes 440mm to 520mm the bike has 440mm chain stays. Why? I ride an xl frame and it doesn’t make sense that I would ride the same chain stay as a small frame.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
More companies need to realize that being brave and honest as Pivot has been to do an interview like this, raises your brand integrity for the better by a factor of 10 fold.
Rather than gaslight the customer for ‘external forces’ on repeatable frame cracks on the same frames. ⛰️
A better method would be not putting your riders in danger with bikes that fold like a cheap lawn chair.
Reminds me of the Titan Sub, but without the designer suffering the consequences.
@@Videomorgue they all but said that in the interview, we are happy to take this risk as it’s cheaper, but it’s the riders who take the risk, shouldn’t they decide?
There's a guy that's local to me and has a UA-cam channel. One of the bike shops was there with a tent. I was talking to one of the guys and the UA-camr rolled up. They made a comment about his new Pivot frame. Not sure which model but it was a nice light green metallic. He was relaying that he paid 1k for a new frame under crash warranty. Then he said it really wasn't a crash but that his bottom bracket hit a rock and broke his frame.
I guess from being an outsider listening, that he didn't 100% get denied a crash replacement for 1k was good. He didn't get hurt which is the most important thing unlike the brand Orange who really did a UA-camr wrong after his frame broke and he got injured.
Back in the early days of carbon fiber there were some fatalities. I think that was a wakeup call for a lot of brands to start over building them, hence the weight difference isn't like it used to be when carbon was really light.
I ride all carbon, including rims. I frequently look it over to make sure I don't see any cracked paint from stress fractures.
I'm just glad Bernard didn't get hurt, and I'm sure Pivot will do everything possible to make sure they stay on top of quality.
I Work at a shop that sells pivot, I ride a pivot, hands down my favorite bike and company I’ve ever ridden and seen in this industry.
This is the first high quality video in awhile from PB where I watched the whole thing
Yeah me too, really interesting stuff.
right
Really i came here for the comments
Cracked frames are the dirty secret of the mountain biking industry.
Huge respect to Pivot for being so open and honest about the issues.
More manufacturers need to do this.
Evil and Orange could both take a lesson.
The frame wasn't actually cracked, it's more like the carbon tubes linked by piece of metal in the front of the bike "fell off" of it, like the piece of metal separated itself from the carbon.
Yeah ilove how pivot come forward and own the fault and don't hide a thing
@@apersonontheinternet8034 Norco they easily crack, my Norco Sight cracked after 2 days in Whistler same for my friends Norco Range, Aurum and Truax
Saw a vid about santa cruz making a rider pay because it crack it the way it wasnt intended for the design. Basically the rider made a small drop but landed on a loose rock. That loose rock hit the frame, so it's no covered under their "lifetime warranty". I'd never buy carbon bikes, and from santa cruz. First, all trails I go to have loose rocks. 2nd, if you're a company and sell your bike lifetime warranty, shouldn't you back your product? I have 2 santa cruz sitting in garage, those are the last frame I buy from them.
This video is a marketing masterpiece !
How to turn a major and public frame breakage into an advertisement for the quality and passion of those bikes !
These marketing people need a huge bonus
And it shows that Pivot takes this seriously. I’ve had 5 pivots and their quality is second to none. As an engineering Director in Aerospace I can tell you stuff like this happens. What separates great companies from mediocre ones is how respond to adversity. From afar, it seems their response is text book for a segment leader.
This is the best way to handle it. Straight forward with honesty. The engineers found the root cause. Addressing it any other way would do way more harm to Pivot. I have no doubt that Pivot as a company will get this behind them and strive to be even better than there already are.
I was thinking the same thing. This looks like a "documentary" about an incident. But it's actually a paid PR piece via the biggest mtn biking media platform.
If it weren't for this video I would have been completely unaware that Pivot had launched a new downhill bike.
Testing to failure is a well-respected path to success. Pivot - you guys rock. This video puts more confidence in Pivot as a brand - not less. PB - best video of the year. Well done!!
Thanks!
@@pivotcyclesusaSeriously! In BMX Racing, snapping, frames, forks and bars is not exactly uncommon.
When the accident happened, I was like, "F...Pivot and its prototype". And I dont think I was alone in that. However, Pivot didnt hide; owned the mistake and corrected it. After the accident, BK continued riding as a madman (see new Hardline feature) and the prototype held its ground. And now Pivot owns the mistake once more and moves on with a new version of the Phoenix 29. Good for them and BK.
In engineering the idea of a prototype is to test concepts and ensure the theory is realised in reality. Often this results in failures (fail fast, Learn and move forwards) so BK breaking a prototype should be no surprise. Better break a few prototypes than 100’s of production bikes. I think that’s one of the reasons for running a pro team also.
BK is probably the greatest ambassador for Mtnbiking, he’s a fantastic mentor to newer riders ( not just his own team). Thank you Pivot for supporting him and building great bikes for them.
BK is Pivot Factory Racing. He’s always pushing the limits!
I have loved watching the development of this bike, and super cool seeing some more of the behind the scenes. I really appreciate pivot being so open with this process, so many companies do all the work behind closed doors, which i get but I love seeing the process and the upgrades, the ups and downs. I will be a pivot fan for life and always support the teams.
This was awesome. Thanks Pinkbike. Bravo, Pivot, keep pushing. Nothing good is easy.
I agree the open times on the glue and contamination on lugs from people touching them etc won't help but the fact the 2 tubes went into the lug parallel to eachother is what makes it possible for them to pull out. Combined with the lug only bonding to the outside of the tube is just less strong than how Atherton does their frames for example.
Agree totally re; the parallel entry of the top & down tubes into the head tube. No way that is ideal as you say.
They admit to acid etching the aluminium but when you do so the acid is never neutralised so it will continue corroding the alloy indefinitely. The way they applied the bonding glue is amateur, if you don't actually physically press it into the pores of the material it will just sit on-top, most contract and shrink while curing so it will not expand into the pores
That is hardly the reason. The bond takes the most load and those are shearing forces. I wouldn't be surprised if the mechanical interlock of tubes connected in a triangle could be overcome with one hand.
@@a.r.8850I'm not an engineer, but having bonded 10cm square 1.2mm thick pieces of steel to foam with some bendy sheet plastic over the top, in order to hang an adult bed off it, for an international trailer manufacturer, I can assure you that the ONLY strength that bonded material has is when it's loaded in sheer. Anything else and it'll just peel off. It's always the problem with high end tech and engineers pushing the limits. It requires the product to be manufactured PERFECTLY, or it WILL fail. Hence the reason I don't walk on those glass floors 40 stories up in buildings with an over hang. I just don't trust that it's been made perfectly or hasn't been compromised since installation. If Pivot is full of engineers and geeks, I have every faith they know what they're doing. All info on how to use the glue, best practices in prep, etc. will all have come from the manufacturers of the carbon sheet and the bonding agent. So anyone else using the same products will be building bikes using the same process. It's not like Pivot have invented the carbon and the glue and are using a best guess attitude to how to put it all together. Massive kudos for owning up to their mistake and explaining what went wrong on camera. No-one else in the industry would have done that. Well done Pivot.
I heard the term etch used but no specific mention of acid. Aluminium can be electrolytically etched too, as in anodising, which also gives a surface suitable for adhesive adsorption.🎉
I respect them for this. Complete honesty and support being offered. This is what people want to see in a company.
What a great Company and people there. Awesome ! Love to watch❤
great video, I was watching the race when BK face planted and I held my breath. Fantastic that he was alright. Not sure you have explained exactly what failed and why, but it was interesting to watch.
Bravo to the pivot crew for taking responsibility for what happened. Cheers 🍻 from Tennessee
Now if they only stopped with press fit bottom brackets, and I might actually consider one.
Pivot and South Mountain are synonymous, if you can make a bike that will last out there it usually last anywhere. Kerr is an absolute beast and AZ is awesome!
Good doco. Pb needs to do a feature on Zerode a real backyard world changing bike 🚲 company
As a casual bystander, I would have liked to see a little more of the frame failure details and a short comment from BK on the incident.
Just curious since it was the basis of the story.
This is basically a puff piece marketing video for Pivot!
My gut told me the split second I watched that race incident that I bet the carbon was unbonding itself from the lugs that made this happen. I also said that this could happen to any manufacturer, and this is what prototyping is. It's not a finished product, but a product in the making.
Personally I own a Switchblade and that video had no effect on me, because it's got nothing to do with my bike at all. It also didn't matter to me as of trust in the company, because as I mentioned above this was a prototype bike. I've also seen how professional they have been with the whole thing, so this video being released now is simply a testament of that very thing.
If you ask me, I think even Ladaman would approve.
It's an attitude. I'll test your shit to failure, as long as you're willing to pick up the pieces when it DOES fail.
The comments about the cornering characteristics of common high pivot bikes resonates. I briefly owned a Druid v2 after decades of virtual pivot type bikes of varying layouts. It’s was alarming how unpredictable cornering was. I went back to a VPP type layout, Maestro specifically, that provides a degree of rearward/upward axle path and the predictability returned.
For a "documentary" about a serious incident, there was a lot of marketing angles and shiny slow-mo shots of the new bike. Yeah there was some well edited candid interviews (nothing too scathing)...but the whole thing smelled like reverse marketing for Pivot. These days the lines between editorial and marketing are so f*cked-up.
I will now consider a Pivot when I buy a new bike. I feel like Pivot taking this on transparently as they did says a lot of good things about them.
The first thing I thought seeing this video is "I want a bike from Pivot" not "Oh Pivot makes bikes that break."
When a company is honest, it pays. Especially in todays market, regardless of the field.
I don't know why I expected anything other than a long form advertisement from Pinkbike.
Pretty interesting and well done, also felt like a long form advertisement
Easily the most important bike release this year. I really love the honesty here
Of course this marketing piece is part of convincing you them being "honest". Also, don't you notice how they subliminally condition you from the beginning saying and repeating several times that they get their bikes tested to failure (don't big brand bikes do?). Bam! And now they got you. 😅
Sure... things do break. But something breaking catastrophically at the pinnacle of DH racing is totally unacceptable.
@@ericsn6158 not really. Breaking things is necessary for finding the limitations of the bike, so they can figure out what to do to fix it.
And its the most important because its the one people have been lusting over since that lugged prototype was shown off, and the one everyone has been talking about
I broke many Pivot frames.. And they stood behind everyone!!
Great vid. I am too old and broken for down hill now. The energy and honesty that the guys in Pivot brought to the table makes me want to buy one anyway. Keep it up guys :)
I love the honesty and humility from everyone on the Pivot team. Kudos to you. This is how you improve and create really great products. Sometimes things just break…
Of course this marketing piece is part of convincing you them being "honest". Also, don't you notice how they subliminally condition you from the beginning saying and repeating several times that they get their bikes tested to failure (don't big brand bikes do?). Bam! And now they got you. 😅
Sure... things do break. But something breaking catastrophically at the pinnacle of DH racing is totally unacceptable.
It’s actually great to see that the reason for the debonding of Bernard’s bike is that they were doing a demo of the process to the media and they took just a bit too much time doing it. I’m glad the video quickly explains what happened and then moves on. Seemingly minor issues like that can make the difference between winning a race and eating dirt!
Great video pivot team
How can anyone enjoy this? This is just a huge advertisment piece, where they try to minimize the damage to their reputation.
Exactly, some are just very impressionable and dont discern that they are already being "conditioned" from the beginning of this "advertisement". 😅
I FINALLY pulled the trigger on a Mach 4SL after deciding the Epic SWorks was just too harsh. Initially I was concerned because in my mind I was already riding the fastest, highest quality XC bike available. I was so wrong. The Mach 4 SL is simply more comfortable while have a similar race geometry and completely solid and silent. Maybe a comparison would be between a Chevy Camaro (EPIC) to a BMW M SERIES. I’m rambling. Sorry. If your looking for a seriously nice XC bike try the Pivot. It’s so good
I think I've just fell inlove with bernard and pivots relationship. Now this ìs a bike family
We are happy to have him and all the PFR racers part of the global Pivot family.
oh no! saddle wasn't straight! 16:31
BK is an animal! He is so good for Pivot. They have stepped up and owned the mistake, though, so well done Pivot.
you can tell by the first 30 seconds that this is going to be a masterclass video :)
Yes... a "marketing" masterclass video indeed. And they really got you just within 30 seconds. 😅
@@ericsn6158 yeah sure. But what isn't a marketing video I'm MTB nowadays? I'm a little disappointed because the whole video didn't go into dept as I would have liked to
9:26 THIS! "hell yeah you should be worried!" And proceed to bring the bikes in and build new bikes.
In the whole spectrum of things the brand could do in this situation, for all the reasons that such decisions are based, such descisions also show the base posture and mindset of the brand.
For such type of company, the cost of a decision like this for Pivot could be scary high, and avoiding such cost is a logic step. Just not the right one. And this atitude shows their principles, at least to me, and those are to make it right after mistakes. Which is natural for companies because companies are made of people, and people can and will make mistakes.
I never looked into Pivot much. But I respect this A LOT.
In the other corner we have Shimano and their Hollowtech cranks
I wasn't crazy about that mixed frame design. So glad BK walked away from that catastrophic failure and the new Phoenix design is killer, albeit a little late. As the saying goes, better late than never. Hope to see BK take Red Bull Hardline one more time on this frame.
Can I get a tune ID at 10:10?
Ariel Shalom - reload
@@mattnewfoxred big ups
Great video. Watched all.the way to the end. Need to make one explaining high pivot bikes.
I remember when sem came out with metal to metal high strength glue. In the beginning all the salesmen sold this product as " it's stronger than a weld". Well years later that is no longer the case. Personally, I wouldn't ride a bike with a frame that has 2 different materials glued together. Pivot does make a great bike though no doubt.
Poor Bernard. At least he didn't get impaled and was ok.
i‘d like the real ted cruz to be that chill
I think Cannondale had a similar 2 chain high pivot bike with the drive sprocket on the left side and the chainline on the right?, decades ago
Great interview. Thanks everyone
Wow, only excuses and nothing else. Just have seen yesterday what crap Pivot is building. Not enough spacers for the fork so that it is moving and no secured screw for the crank that this was getting loose. Pivot = High Price and low Quality
I don't understand how people think it's bad for this to have happened. Bernard is paid to break these frames so we don't. This actually made me more likely to buy a Pivot bike than not. They stand behind their products out front in the open for all to see. I would rather that than hidden on private land trails and everything on the bike hidden or covered up. But then again I'm a Gen X'r and we broke bikes daily pushing the boundaries of what was thought possible.
I've seen so many of these "pivots" with an extra pivot
Intro: Bernard’s fault for being a ham fisted rider.
I looked at a Pivot a couple months ago based on their reputation. I will however never buy and other frame with a pressfit BB again. I have a 100% failure rate on 2/2 frames of them compared to not a singe failure on a threaded BB going back to my 78 Paramount that hangs above my desk right now. That is something like 15 other bikes. Shame as they seem like a very good company. I purchased a SC Megatower frame instead and will be building it up this winter. Perhaps Pivot has better tolerances and manufacturing, but that is what I was also told about my Cervello that squeaked like a MF the last time I had it outside.
Awsome to see the effort and reason behind pivots prototype dh. Great also to see some archive bk footage :)
I liked the video, its interesting but also an example of good crisis management. While it was good they found the source of the fault, they could have reassured by saying something like " we reproduced the problem joint and confirmed it was (say, 5x) weaker than a proper joint. And we changed procedures so the mistake would be impossible to ever happen again."
So its actually the guys fault and not the construction of the bike as I understand the Pivot Ceo.
Slow clap. This is why I've owned seven Pivots and a Titus.
I don't understand why it failed though - in the video he says that the part with the glue was left out too long. Didn't the frame snap though? How would having a poorly bonded part from the glue sitting out too long cause a frame to snap?
The frame didn't snap. The tubes pulled out of the headtube lug because the adhesive failed.
The adhesive failed because the bike smacked into a tree hard on practice before the final run. Bernard commented at the time on how much the bike compressed. It was lucky he wasn’t hurt in that incident.
So a high-pivot will flex in corners increasing head tube angle 🤔.
So basically it was the rider, and not the carbon fiber frame?
got it! 😂
I wonder if any of us could have broken that bike? Like it said at the beginning, he breaks a lot of bikes.
He might ride faster but i guess compared to us he is riding way better lines so you would also have snaped the bike.
@@sloops4398 fair point.
The part in the beginning where they kept repating over and over about the breaking, testing to failure, etc... is just subliminal conditioning. And some are so easily swayed.
I wonder how they account for galvanic corrosion, I honestly thought that was the reason maybe
Galvanic corrosion between which two metals?
You have carbon touching aluminum lugs. Is that a concern for galvanic corrosion?
@@vilimiryordanov8502 Its basicall carbon - aluminium - carbon and the aluminium has different electric characteristics than the carbon which is why corrosion might appear at the joints. We always tried to avoid that by adding an insulating layer of glass fibre on the joint
@@lukaslanger5068 as long as the resin and bonding material insulate the carbon from the aluminium, galvanic corrosion shouldn't be an issue. Was this a case here? Hard to say.
If you design it for Bernard, the product will survive 99% of the customer base. This is research and capitalism at it's raw and honest best.
Transparency and honesty, the key to respect, and bike sales.
My next bike will be a Pivot 🔥🙏🏼
Such a great little documentary.
Happy to have this company in my backyard. PHX AZ!
BK was fukin cruising and 50/50’d a triple. When you are riding at that level no bike is invincible. Coming from BMX to Mtb I don’t understand the big deal when someone breaks a frame.
Prototypes are meant to be taken to the limits, this was good for that
Not in competition. That's what in-house testing is for.
This makes me want to buy a Pivot more now, rather than less. Why more brands don't recognize this is beyond me.
.
Companies really need to start realizing that transparency is a great thing for us customers... Personally I know that I've never come away feeling less confident (in a product) after the company reports on a failure. It's as simple as that.
Bernard Kerr is like the Marine Corp of product testing. If it can be broken, he'll find out how
2:55 I have an amateur rider friend that broke 3 of your Phoenix carbon race in less than 2 seasons. Just sayin.
Unfortunately all you get from this is: they don’t really know why the lugs broke other than they might have left the glue to long but not sure
I think it’s a great thing to use for testing stage but I wouldn’t spend my money on one, and when it’s private money you have to worry about the glue age etc
Great news, no one in the world can buy one that is glued in like that. That was only for prototype testing. The production model that's available for purchase is full carbon with no lugs and no glue.
@@DontWorryImAPilotit's tried and tested, giant was doing it in the 90s.
@@DontWorryImAPilot Atherton’s are for general public sale and before this crash I think they were going to follow suit
@@glennbroad2543 You can think whatever you want. Just because you think things doesn't make them true.
Pivot was talking about that frame before the break happened and had said their intention was not to sell it as a lugged bike. According to them, they were doing the lugged design in order to be able to change geometry/kinematics easily and be able to dial in their bike before going to a full carbon build.
People have been doing lugged bikes for years so it's not like the Atherton bike (which is a sick bike) all the sudden gave them permission to follow suit. According to an interview (I THINK it was a podcast, I can't remember which anymore) the designer had said the lugged construction was not going to be for sale and was being used only for ease of iterating prototypes with a full carbon model to follow at the conclusion of development.
@@thegarageluthier I guess by "one" I was meaning a lugged Pivot DH bike. One of my old road bikes had lugs on the tubes. It looked awesome!
Great film! Except all the weird music and sounds!
Love the bravery of every e involved to talk about this ! I’d still buy a pivot!! Except I’m a poor teacher!lol
I'm a bike mechanic, I do DH for hobby as well! 15 years ago, I was working at Airbus, producing Carbon fiber Airplane parts.....
First, I will never buy or ride a carbon frame! It is a high tech and high end material, of course! But stones and rocks, and impacts after Fu.. Ed Up landings are just " old School" frame killers🤣😎‼️
Second thing : the bikes become too expensive! A good alloy DH Bike with porno parts costs 5 to max 7 thousand dollars.
Santa crus, Trek and pivot just double those prices......
All the enduros are carbon now. Lot of companies aren’t making alloy frames.
So is it full alu now or they stuck with the lugs?
Amazing video, amazing bike, and great to see Pivot owning their mistakes... Now can we please have one with a gearbox in it?? Please?
I love that pivot owned the situation and did everything to learn from the situation and still bang out top of the line product 🔥🔥🔥
I turned it off after the first 5 minutes of excuses.
we need more of these short documentarys
This is a marketing piece made to look a documentary. And you fell for it so easily. 😅
@@ericsn6158Yeah almost everything is marketing in todays world, but i still like the documentary style of videos
those Kerr screenshots in the beginning lol
Can Pinkbike do a documentary about how the bike industry covers the medical costs of the athletes that they use for the testing of their products?
If the Titan Sub was a bicycle
Video is an attempt for Pivot to try and save face. “Bernard breaks everything.” 🤣 Never would buy a Pivot.
My buddy snapped a Trek in the same spot. It happens
this is an 18 minute advertisement.
ADVICE: Buy bikes that have no questions asked lifetime warranty, rest of them even if the bikes are great and they make cool ads with pinkbike avoid
What a great group of individuals.👍
It is history how meme became viral and gave new fans to the brand :)
Bike looks insane, wish I had that type of money lol
Well done Pivot for this video. 🥂
All I heard in this video was a theory on why the frame failed. No further investigation or tests to back it up. Piss poor root cause analysis. Video then proceeds with a lot of Pivot warm fuzzy stuff.
I have nothing against Pivot, but the contents of this video fell far short of what the title claims.
Bullshit. He said they analyzed the frames made before and after and couldnt find bonding issues. And they replaced all the frames of all the riders just to be sure. And guess what, not another failure since then.
Couldn’t agree more! It’s basically just a fluff piece promoting Pivots new bike.
@@Ganiscolwell at least no failures that were live streamed…
@@Ganiscolsome people refuse to be satisfied. Yet I'm sure their favorite company has had failures, I guess it's nice for them to have not been broadcast live. Some serious head in the sand logic.
Who started the lug version, is it Atherton or someone else?
Robot
To my knowledge it started off with roadbikes not long after carbon monocque frames coming into use. So about 20 years ago i think.. I love it how people were saying Pivot was copying Atherton, but they didnt say the same about Specialized Gravity. The only reason Specialized didnt look "like an Atherton" was because they used Ohlins suspension. If Specialized Gravity used Fox like Atherton & Pivot did, then Specialized would have looked "like an Atherton" too. Actually more so because Specialized used carbon lugs, like Atherton did, vs Pivot who used CNC machined lugs.. And yet after all that, Atherton werent even the first to use lugs, just the first WC MTB frame to..
@@crasymummabefore robot bikes gt did the lobo.
Gt did the lobo and sts like 15/20 years ago.
I was going with I think robot where the first to have lugs and tubes. Enabling them make bespoke bikes etc.
Loved this video. Such a good approach
So this was essentialy just an advert for pivot bikes.
For a minute I thought it would be an untold story. Then I realized it was just a paid spot. Of course.
He ran straight into a tree at speed the same day before finals.
Is this an advertorial? I can't believe the comments below, all in support of Pivot 'owning' the massive huge blunder on live TV. Pivot better hope it doesn't happen again on live TV.
What do you suggest as an alternative response?
@@chrisanderson8578 I don't need to, I'm sure people are smart enough to see through it for what it is. Sure, you will have your die hard Pivot fans that will cherish the moment Pivot 'owned' up to it and they will post glowing and loving comments. On the other hand, Pivot has a problem, there's people like me who will never go near a Pivot because there was the one time on live TV their frame snapped for the whole world to see. Notwithstanding the frame in question would/should have had the best of engineering and construction along with every conceivable inspection etc. No amount of brainwashing advertorials will change our mind and the reason is MTB can be deadly and you're a second away from a life changing injury. We know the risks but we still do it, do you really want to be on a bike that you can't trust. For example, I don't recall ever seeing a Pivot at Red Bull Rampage (I might be wrong) but I can't recall one.
@@chrisanderson8578 I don't need to, I'm sure people are smart enough to see through it for what it is. Sure, you will have your die hard Pivot fans that will cherish the moment Pivot 'owned' up to it and they will post glowing and loving comments. On the other hand, Pivot has a problem, there's people like me who will never go near a Pivot because there was the one time on live TV their frame snapped for the whole world to see. Notwithstanding the frame in question would/should have had the best of engineering and construction along with every conceivable inspection etc. No amount of brainwashing advertorials will change our mind and the reason is MTB can be deadly and you're a second away from a life changing injury. We know the risks but we still do it, do you really want to be on a bike that you can't trust. For example, I don't recall ever seeing a Pivot at Red Bull Rampage (I might be wrong) but I can't recall one.
No one has watched the entire video yet 😮
Has anyone noticed that the Phoenix has the same chain stay length for every size? From reach sizes 440mm to 520mm the bike has 440mm chain stays. Why? I ride an xl frame and it doesn’t make sense that I would ride the same chain stay as a small frame.
Ne Rahmenlehre muss ich mir auch noch bauen.