9fs we’re designed to be able to run on any type of line, they’re praised for there versatility. It’s good that the hornby counterparts channel that. Awesome video as always 🎉
Perhaps, but I think even the 9Fs might have struggled on a little branch line or light railway. Doesn't take away from what the new Hornby model can do though! Thanks for watching 😃
The 9F really is an impressive machine. I think it's the closeness of the driving wheels which makes it detectable on the track which allows it to run. No large gaps between the drive wheel sets like the J27.
This is just a loco collection video in disguise XD. I’d love to see more of these experiment videos in future. Hope you had a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Haha, I really should do another loco collection video in the future - it's expanded quite a bit since the last time I did one. Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 😃
Yeah that was a bit of a surprise to be honest! I contacted them shortly after I finished filming the series (everything was filmed/edited in advance) to ask whether they would be interested in featuring it in the magazine. I don't think I heard back from them and then I discovered it had made it to print when I picked up a copy earlier this month 😆 Thanks for watching 👍
Very interesting video, it's good to see and know what goes around 1st radius, the biggest shocker was the 9f, that went round no problem, happy new year 😀
Yeah I was really surprised by the 9F too! Like I said in the video, I wouldn't want to put the loco through that on a regular basis but the 9F in particular seemed fairly happy on the layout! Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 😃
Interesting experiment! I have some “off scene” first radius curves and some the stuff that goes round them is very interesting. Never had any problem with any Bo-Bo diesels or EMU/DMU’s. The 9F was a surprise although clearly the driver was struggling as he was nearly falling out the window!
Yeah I definitely think a lot of us want to try using 1st radius off scene to keep the size of fiddle yards down, so that's good to know you rarely have any problems. I agree about the 9Fs driver though, a bit too much mulled wine I think! Thanks for watching 😃
This reminds me of when Sams trains did a test similar to this. But he was pushing them to the limits. Like how small can a curve be for a train to stay? Or how high can you make a "bump" in the tracks without the train derailing. Along with many different other tests for tracks and trains. He try them with many different locomotives and its worth a watch. I think he gots a video and a live stream segment for the tests. Again this just reminded me of it and so i thought i tell you since you seem to want to look more into track testing. Oh that would be a awesome collab sams trains and you doing track tests together. Lol. Time will only tell.
Yes, from what I remember he was testing an 0-4-0 round very extreme curves where I was more interesting in seeing what large locos could run on standard Setrack. I'd certainly be up for doing a collab with Sam though if he was ever interested 😅 Thanks for watching 👍
Heyy this is a helpful video as recently I had to downsize my layout to 1st radius unfortunately but I still have large locomotives so why don't u recommend it will it cause problems?
While the larger locos could technically make it round the curves it was obvious they were struggling. They also couldn't do much more than a crawl and it's a lot easier running light engine than with rolling stock behind. Personally I wouldn't want to do that to them consistently and I imagine they'll wear out quite quickly if you did. Thanks for watching 👍
nice experiment! it's surprising how many locos can actually go round 1st radius track. quick question, how would i go about making a curve on a 4 track mainline using setrack?
Yeah I was pretty surprised too! To do a 4 track curve using only Setrack I'd imagine you'd have to use R1 for the inside line, R2 for the next one out and so on up to R4 for the outermost line. Not sure how well it would work in practice though. Thanks for watching 😃
It's had a few minor tweaks and upgrades over the years but it works 👍 The key thing I've found is to keep it short. It always annoys me when videos have an intro that is 2 mins long which is why mine is under 10secs! Thanks for watching 😃
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy I've been actually watching since day one but I've had many different UA-cam names. Keep up your good work! Sadly funds never permit to become a member or anything, but I hope my views and likes contribute something to your fantastic channel. I've got a suggestion for you, perhaps re-wire Pickwick Yard and you could perhaps integrate it into your modular layout? That'd look incredible!
Very good vid, and great information. Some things may look very unrealistic but if you’re planning on having your radius 1 curves hidden anyway that’s not an issue. Thanks for sharing this!
Yes definitely not at all what I was expecting, I thought it was all over after the Schools Class to be honest! Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 🥳
A fun video and a lovely little Winter Layout. Charming. I have an Oxford Rail J27 and it would derail on a turn out onto a radius one siding. Investigating it I found the turn out was not lying perfectly flat. Adding an extra track pin to hold it down perfectly flat solved the problem. The J27 seems to have very fine wheel flanges and therefore is a real stickler for flat level track, more so than any of my other locos. It now runs on the radius 1 curves though absolutely fine.
The J27 does seem to be very fussy but that's interesting about it now working on R1 curves. Were all the wheels making contact with the rails then, since on mine the centre wheelset didn't have enough side play. Thanks for watching 😃
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy I noticed that on your video, I wonder if your back to back needs a minor adjustment? I don't seem to have that issue. I also, very carefully filed away the sharp edges of the inside of the metal steps with a needle file just to give a little more clearance for the coupling rods. that seems to allow a little nore side play. Did it very gingerly though so as not to damage anything.
Nice little experiment. I had a feeling the 0-4-0 would make it round with no trouble and it seems 0-6-0s with shorter and long wheelbases work very well too. After watching this, I think tank engines, particularly the smaller ones like 0-4-0s and short based 0-6-0s are best suited for layouts with 1st radius curves.
Yes if a layout is mostly made up of R1 curves then 0-4-0s and 0-6-0s are definitely the way to go. If you just have one random R1 curve leading into a siding to save space though, it doesn't automatically rule out some of these larger models. Thanks for watching 😃
Great experiment. I thought I was destined to only old tender drive engines due to a few 1st radius curves on my layout. But there is hope for some modern loco's. Now I just need to figure out how to pay for one!
Yep it's definitely not as clear cut as the manufacturers make out although I can definitely see why so many have a 2nd Radius Minimum. Paying for the larger locos though is another issue entirely though! Thanks for watching 😃
Great little experiment mate. Even I was surprised that the 9F was running around the 1st radius curves with no issues! It just shows that models that are made today are capable of things like that. Happy new year. - Nicholas.
Absolutely, my impression was that the modern, highly detailed locos would complain more about the tight curves but that wasn't necessarily the case. Thanks for watching 😃
Going back forty years and EVERYTHING went around radius 1, whether it was The Flying Scotsman or a 9F - and the rear pony trucks sat on the tracks with flanges. Of course the models were not so detailed back then, but you can't have everything!! (lol)
Absolutely, but like you said we've seen locos become a lot more realistic and more detailed over the last decade or so and that comes at a cost. It's interesting that some of the more recent larger models do kind of run though. Thanks for watching 😃
While besides a Bachmann 37 I don't have the largest of locos, I've only encountered 1 so far that can't handle 1st radius curves: The Hornby B12 - and only anticlockwise. The brake stand on the left side of the tender conflicts with the loco footplate when turning to the left. Not a problem when running clockwise I'd be interested to see 1st-radius curve tests in reviews - if only as a 'how does it fare' rather than a proper assessment. Being a review it's always good to see the extremities of performance as a baseline that people will only see better than on their own layouts
That's interesting about the B12. It certainly seems that the larger locos tend to be more fussy and tiny little things like you mention can make a big difference. It would be interesting to include it in reviews but I'm just not sure how I'd do it since I don't have the space to keep North Poleton setup all year round 🤔 Thanks for watching 👍
Because I have a small layout, EVERYTHING has to be able to negotiate 1st radius curves and not look silly. Your video just goes to show that you can't rule anything out. 😊
Interesting experiment with some surprising results as far as the 9F. I have eliminated even R2 curves on my layout so this shouldn't be a worry for me but I can see that some will still consider R1 due to space constraints, think I'd rather go a smaller scale in that case.
Yeah I think really if your layout is mostly going to be made up of R1 curves you're better sticking to the smaller locos or go for N, TT or 009. That said, if you have one or two R1 curves leading into a shed or siding for example, it's handy to know that the larger locos won't automatically derail in most cases. Thanks for watching 😃
The Hornby Eurostar will go around a 1st radius curve. But it will not clear lineside objects. Sometimes when it says 2nd radius, what it means is that there is insufficient clearance, rather than the loco cannot take the curve! You can make a loco go through a 1st radius by widening the gauge slightly. Thanks for uploading.
Yes that's what I was trying to demonstrate when I showed that certain locos wouldn't go under the bridges, or in the case of the Class 47 through the platform, because of the clearance issues. Thanks for watching 😃
Carriages and certain wagons can cause more issues than the locomotives with track radius. MK3 coaches can be difficult to gauge on a layout with curves less than radius 3 which is why you see more modern image layouts with stations only tending to do straight platforms rather than curved. I would dread to see a Oxford Rail railgun attempt a radius 1 layout.
Yes there's also the clearance to consider as well with longer coaches. It's the same issue that the Class 47 had on the platforms and bridges! Thanks for watching 😃
Hi I’ve built a first radius layout I tested my Bachmann 3f tender loco and the 4-4-0 dukedog will go round quite nicely. Great video this gave me the inspiration to build my 👍🚂
Its logical that the 9f will handle the curve as its flangeless centre wheel effectively converts it into two smaller wheelbase locos a 2-4-0 and an 0-4-0 with sufficient space between them to follow the curve, while the Pacific's have a rigid and shorter wheel base. The hush hush seems to have a long wheelbase that allows it to stay on the track. Fun video!
Yes that was essentially my thinking too, although with the Pacifics and the Hush Hush I have to admit I was expecting the shorter wheelbase A3 to perform better than the longer W1 - but to be honest I think the older Hornby A3 is quite a fussy model. Thanks for watching 😃
Absolutely, in a similar way I've used setrack points in my fiddle yard mostly because they allowed me to get a bit of extra length into all the loops! Thanks for watching 😃
Great vid. I have half a loop first radius - more kinda semi storage/decorative than to be regular use track inside my two main loops - second and third radius ones. I did run my Bachmann class 37 on the first radius semi loop to see what happens, and it was fine. However, when I put a carriage on it, it derailed. Not a surprise! Thanks for sharing 👍 😊
That's really interesting about the Bachmann Class 37 as I've just had a comment from someone else who said that loco would run on even 2nd radius! Thanks for watching 😃
Yes I do think that could be the key. The 9F though doesn't have much slack but it does have the flangeless centre wheel set which I think really helps in that case. Thanks for watching 😃
Not this one, this is the brand new 9F that was redesigned from ground up as a brand new model according to Hornby and released a few months ago. Thanks for watching 😃
That's really interesting! I know that Hornby supposedly try to make their locos compatible with lots of Setrack configurations but perhaps Bachmann prefer to focus more on the detail end of things which is why the A4 has more trouble. Thanks for watching 😃
I think all pre-1990 Triang and Triang/Hornby engines should run on 1st radius curves. One of the reasons that the 9F ran so well is that the chassis is still basically the same dimensions as the one from the 1970s. And that engine was designed to run on 1st radius curves.
If that was the case though wouldn't the A3 would have worked well too since that's roughly the same dimensions as the old Triang model. With the 9F I think it's more down to the smaller wheels and the flangeless centre wheel-set. Thanks for watching 😃
Back in the day Hornby Dublo came in one radius, and that was 15"... or 381mm for those that have embraced the metric system. Blind centre drivers were the order of the day on any 6 coupled wheel set or larger. That and lots or side play in the chassis. So it's amazing to see more modern larger locos running on tight radius. They look shit doing it but it's interesting information for behind the scenes work to get engines turned in tighter space.
Yeah, they definitely don't look realistic doing it but it's certainly interesting to see what these larger modern locos are capable of considering how much more complicated they are in comparison to their predecessors. Thanks for watching 😃
I dont run the same gauge as you, being N and Z, but I have to say I really enjoyed this video, what a great practical demo, also I really enjoyed your modelling and locos. I have some N gauge trains that just will not run on tight gauge turns !
Thanks, I'm glad you still enjoyed it! If you like the look of the layout, I just finished up a 5 part series where I showed how it was built from start to finish. Thanks for watching 😃
You opens me some interesting perspectives gentleman... For an industrial/branchline/light railway with nothing larger than a 0-6-0, R1 can be used as you see. For the big four, that put us in action engines like the LNER J15, the LMS 3F, the GWR Pannier tanks outside the 94xx (maybe not for this one, I have to try...) and the SR Terrier (maybe the E4 0-6-2, this one had to be tested...). As diesels, anything outside a shunter like a class 03 or a Gronk is out, but maybe a class 20 or 24 can be used, I will test this. I have to rule out DMUs, too long except the 4 wheels BR type. Also, it is important to match the wagons and coaches.I think anything with bogies is out, except if very short. For passenger trains, you have to rule out the BR Mk 1 and coaches like the 63ft Thompson. The new range of 4 and 6 wheel coaches from Hattons and Hornby is potentially what can be used. Everything is a question of compromises in model trains. R1 has limitations, but for specific settings, it's good to know you can get away with it. I have an idea for a light railway layout, and the engines I want to run on it are all R1 compatible. I just need to rethink all the plans for it, thanks for the test !
Yes I definitely think if a layout is made up mostly of R1 curves then you need to stick to the smaller locos and rolling stock. They'll look much better too than a large loco trying to lumber it's way round. I actually run the Hattons and Hornby 4&6 wheel coaches on this layout and they look great especially for a light railway or branchline setting. R1 would definitely be perfect for a layout like that, best of luck with the planning and thanks for watching 😃
You're definitely not a million miles away! They're actually both Scottish engines so it makes sense that they share some similar design features. Thanks for watching 😃
Fun experiment. I think modern locos is the key here that’s why the W1 and the 9F work and not the flying Scotsman. I have Atlas track who’s second radius is slightly tighter than Hornby. My older x-6-x models can have problems specifically the Tornado and A1 Great Northern
I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that. Much older models from the 80s/90s (and before) were far less detailed and were more capable of running round these tight curves. As locos started becoming more detailed in the early 2000s though, they were more intricate/delicate and weren't so keen on going round R1 curves. As the manufacturers get better and better it seems they've found a happy medium now where they can still add all the detail but get the locos to run round all types of track - though they'll probably still keep recommending R2 as a minimum for good reason. Thanks for watching 😃
Yep it definitely goes to show that you can get away with the odd R1 curve here and there if you really need to. Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 🥳
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy My new layout is now entirely made of R1 (and a few points). I can't run larger locomotives, but it's only 95x85 cm and I like it very much.
most large locos dont mind R1 curves, except the like of the A4 were the bogie is resticted, i have not alot of space so have used R1 for years no problems, luckly i have managed to fit R2 on my layout now so much better all round, great video anyway 🙂
It does seem to depend on the individual loco as some of the medium sized locos didn't like the tight curves but then things like the Hush Hush were mostly ok! Like I said in the video though, I would still definitely recommend R2 where possible. Thanks for watching 😃
Only if you have R1 curves before/after it. The R1 curve is what causes the centre wheelset to not sit on the rails and so when it goes over the point it rides up on the check rails. I do have some setrack points in the fiddle yard of my larger layout and the J27 is able to cope with those (just) but like I said in the video, it's very fussy and bumps/jumps around quite a bit anyway. Thanks for watching 😃
Though I am no fan of the Hornby Schools, I wonder whether its poor performance was due to its having traction tyres? Or was it, even worse, a tender drive loco? Happy New Year!
They certainly didn't help but I think even if they were removed there was still too much of a wobble for the loco to fit on the track properly. Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 🥳
The 9F was absolutely fine. I still wouldn’t recommend running it on R1 unless you really have to but on my normal layout it’s one of my best runners. Thanks for watching 😃
Very surprised to see that a 9F can make it but the Pacific can't, I thought the smaller wheel sets of the Pacific would allow it to sneak through. but seeing that I realise I may have bought the wrong model for my layout... Suppose that's just another reason for me to get a 9F then haha. Lovely video!
I think the flangeless centre wheel set on the 9F has a big part to play with why it was able to run more consistently. The Pacific is a also an older model from a time where (I personally think) Hornby locos were much more delicate. Thanks for watching 😃
Really interesting video. I'm resigned to the fact that, unless I can get more space, I'm sticking with smaller loco's like Hornby Pecketts, Terriers (thankfully they are fantastic) and some smaller tender engines. I've been selling off my longer coach rolling stock so I could buy some Hatton's Genesis ones...they're not as prototypical but they look far better to me than a rake of 61ft coaches does going around a tight curve...seeing long coaches on tight curves has always looked ridiculous to me.
Hey Jonathan, it sounds like you've got the makings of a great Light Railway there! Pecketts and Terriers hauling short 4 & 6 wheel coaches would be perfect for that and the best thing about a Light Railway is that they were so varied you can basically run what you like! Thanks for watching 😃
Yep you really have to have some extreme curves to upset an 0-4-0... but with shorter wheelbases stalling can become an issue too so swings and roundabouts. Thanks for watching 😃
There's a 4-6-0 at 06:48 which is pretty close. That particular one seemed to run pretty well even without any floating or flangeless wheel sets. Thanks for watching 😃
You want to try the new Bachmann 37. Total rubbish the bogies hardly swing at all. Had to remove PECO set track curved points which are supposed to be radius 2. Bachmann told me themselves they know of the problem and offered money back.
Virtually anything will negotiate first radius curves, but will they pull large pieces of rolling stock with significant overhang without causing derailment - that it far more pertinent.
Except as we can see not everything will run happily on R1 curves, the Schools Class and the A3 being particularly notable. With regards to rolling stock, the shorter the better but bogie coaches would be more of a problem due to the clearance issues again. Thanks for watching 😃
Hmmm...well the 9F did very well, I think the class47 had a tougher time with the platform and tunnel clearances. I wonder how Mk1 coaches would do. The virtual 9F would be right off the rails!
Yeah the Class 47 really did struggle and I think it would be the same for Mk1s and any bogie coaches really. The long straight sides would just need so much clearance otherwise. Thanks for watching 😃
That's a tricky one, being smaller you'd think large N Gauge locos would have a better chance of going round tighter curves but the finer tolerances of the scale and lighter weight of the models might cause problems. Thanks for watching 😃
The old bachmann 37 will cringe about it but will go round the odd bit of 1st The new one will only round 2nd and above but only if its perfectly laid I have some older peco and hornby 2nd radius and it whont run I found that it was a few degrees out of tolerances And the bachmann 9f hahahah forget it that thing needs 4th radius or above lol But u have completely sold me on the new hornby 9f thank you I have Been on the fence about it for so long
Yes from what I've heard Bachmann locos do seem to be more fussy so I wonder if Hornby are more conscious of the train set market who may not necessarily have a large layout, therefore they ensure their locos are capable of going round tighter curves. The new Hornby 9F is really good though, definitely one of my favourite locos at the moment. If you haven't seen it already it might be worth checking out my review video of it to have a closer look. Thanks for watching 😃
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy I find it with bachmann locos to be hit and miss but still find bachmann to be better over all in value and detail but that's only my preference of course but I do like some hornby locomotives
Generally RTR models are pretty good with gauging these days. They may be 0.1mm out here or there but for the most part they tend to be pretty consistent. Thanks for watching 😃
No but large locos don't look exactly realistic on 2nd or 3rd radius either. This was simply an experiment to see what these different locos could actually cope with. Thanks for watching 😃
These "radius 1, radius2, etc. designations tell me nothing. I don't know why the actual radius' can't be given. It seems silly to me Especially since a designation like "R1" can men almost anything.
R1 is short hand for a set radius. They don't mean "almost anything", in 00 gauge at least it's a standard of set track that the major manufacturers all recognise. For example, a PECO R1 curve is the same as a Hornby R1 curve. R1 = 371mm R2 = 438mm R3 = 505mm R4 = 572. If you're a beginner it can be a bit confusing to start off with but the easiest way to think about it is that R1 is the smallest/tightest curve with R4 and beyond being much larger/smoother curves. Hope that helps and thanks for watching 👍
9fs we’re designed to be able to run on any type of line, they’re praised for there versatility. It’s good that the hornby counterparts channel that. Awesome video as always 🎉
Perhaps, but I think even the 9Fs might have struggled on a little branch line or light railway. Doesn't take away from what the new Hornby model can do though! Thanks for watching 😃
The 9F really is an impressive machine. I think it's the closeness of the driving wheels which makes it detectable on the track which allows it to run. No large gaps between the drive wheel sets like the J27.
Hi there nice little layout.its amazing what can run@@ThatModelRailwayGuy
This is just a loco collection video in disguise XD. I’d love to see more of these experiment videos in future. Hope you had a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Haha, I really should do another loco collection video in the future - it's expanded quite a bit since the last time I did one. Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 😃
Well the 9F amused me greatly. Interesting video - happy new year to all :)
It's quite comical to see such a large loco running round such a tiny layout isn't it 😅 Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 👍
Nice to see a photo of the layout published in the new edition of Railway Modeller
Yeah that was a bit of a surprise to be honest! I contacted them shortly after I finished filming the series (everything was filmed/edited in advance) to ask whether they would be interested in featuring it in the magazine. I don't think I heard back from them and then I discovered it had made it to print when I picked up a copy earlier this month 😆 Thanks for watching 👍
Very interesting video, it's good to see and know what goes around 1st radius, the biggest shocker was the 9f, that went round no problem, happy new year 😀
Yeah I was really surprised by the 9F too! Like I said in the video, I wouldn't want to put the loco through that on a regular basis but the 9F in particular seemed fairly happy on the layout! Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 😃
Interesting experiment! I have some “off scene” first radius curves and some the stuff that goes round them is very interesting. Never had any problem with any Bo-Bo diesels or EMU/DMU’s. The 9F was a surprise although clearly the driver was struggling as he was nearly falling out the window!
Yeah I definitely think a lot of us want to try using 1st radius off scene to keep the size of fiddle yards down, so that's good to know you rarely have any problems. I agree about the 9Fs driver though, a bit too much mulled wine I think! Thanks for watching 😃
This reminds me of when Sams trains did a test similar to this. But he was pushing them to the limits. Like how small can a curve be for a train to stay? Or how high can you make a "bump" in the tracks without the train derailing. Along with many different other tests for tracks and trains. He try them with many different locomotives and its worth a watch. I think he gots a video and a live stream segment for the tests. Again this just reminded me of it and so i thought i tell you since you seem to want to look more into track testing. Oh that would be a awesome collab sams trains and you doing track tests together. Lol. Time will only tell.
Yes, from what I remember he was testing an 0-4-0 round very extreme curves where I was more interesting in seeing what large locos could run on standard Setrack. I'd certainly be up for doing a collab with Sam though if he was ever interested 😅 Thanks for watching 👍
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy +1 for the @samstrains collab! :)
Heyy this is a helpful video as recently I had to downsize my layout to 1st radius unfortunately but I still have large locomotives so why don't u recommend it will it cause problems?
While the larger locos could technically make it round the curves it was obvious they were struggling. They also couldn't do much more than a crawl and it's a lot easier running light engine than with rolling stock behind. Personally I wouldn't want to do that to them consistently and I imagine they'll wear out quite quickly if you did. Thanks for watching 👍
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy oh right thank you 😊
@ThatModelRailwayGuy also I use peco radius 1 which is a but wider then hornby
I was pretty amazed that my Bachmann WD 2-8-0 and the Hornby O1 ran on R1 curves and they didn't seem to have any problems!
Wow that's seriously impressive! Thanks for watching 😃
happy new year thanks for the content
Happy New Year to you too! Thanks for watching 😃
nice experiment! it's surprising how many locos can actually go round 1st radius track.
quick question, how would i go about making a curve on a 4 track mainline using setrack?
Yeah I was pretty surprised too! To do a 4 track curve using only Setrack I'd imagine you'd have to use R1 for the inside line, R2 for the next one out and so on up to R4 for the outermost line. Not sure how well it would work in practice though. Thanks for watching 😃
What I've noticed about you is you've kept the same intro from the start! That's commitment.
It's had a few minor tweaks and upgrades over the years but it works 👍 The key thing I've found is to keep it short. It always annoys me when videos have an intro that is 2 mins long which is why mine is under 10secs! Thanks for watching 😃
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy I've been actually watching since day one but I've had many different UA-cam names. Keep up your good work! Sadly funds never permit to become a member or anything, but I hope my views and likes contribute something to your fantastic channel. I've got a suggestion for you, perhaps re-wire Pickwick Yard and you could perhaps integrate it into your modular layout? That'd look incredible!
Very good vid, and great information.
Some things may look very unrealistic but if you’re planning on having your radius 1 curves hidden anyway that’s not an issue.
Thanks for sharing this!
Yeah definitely useful information for fiddle yard entries! Thanks for watching 😃
Interesting video and some surprises too! Happy New Year!
Yes definitely not at all what I was expecting, I thought it was all over after the Schools Class to be honest! Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 🥳
A fun video and a lovely little Winter Layout. Charming. I have an Oxford Rail J27 and it would derail on a turn out onto a radius one siding. Investigating it I found the turn out was not lying perfectly flat. Adding an extra track pin to hold it down perfectly flat solved the problem. The J27 seems to have very fine wheel flanges and therefore is a real stickler for flat level track, more so than any of my other locos. It now runs on the radius 1 curves though absolutely fine.
The J27 does seem to be very fussy but that's interesting about it now working on R1 curves. Were all the wheels making contact with the rails then, since on mine the centre wheelset didn't have enough side play. Thanks for watching 😃
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy I noticed that on your video, I wonder if your back to back needs a minor adjustment? I don't seem to have that issue. I also, very carefully filed away the sharp edges of the inside of the metal steps with a needle file just to give a little more clearance for the coupling rods. that seems to allow a little nore side play. Did it very gingerly though so as not to damage anything.
My god! How on earth did that 9F make it around those curves?!? Great video!
I'm honestly still trying to figure that one out myself! Glad I got it on film or no-one would have believed me 😅 Thanks for watching 👍
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy Haha fair enough! Happy New Year!
Nice little experiment. I had a feeling the 0-4-0 would make it round with no trouble and it seems 0-6-0s with shorter and long wheelbases work very well too. After watching this, I think tank engines, particularly the smaller ones like 0-4-0s and short based 0-6-0s are best suited for layouts with 1st radius curves.
Yes if a layout is mostly made up of R1 curves then 0-4-0s and 0-6-0s are definitely the way to go. If you just have one random R1 curve leading into a siding to save space though, it doesn't automatically rule out some of these larger models. Thanks for watching 😃
Great experiment. I thought I was destined to only old tender drive engines due to a few 1st radius curves on my layout. But there is hope for some modern loco's. Now I just need to figure out how to pay for one!
Yep it's definitely not as clear cut as the manufacturers make out although I can definitely see why so many have a 2nd Radius Minimum. Paying for the larger locos though is another issue entirely though! Thanks for watching 😃
Great little experiment mate. Even I was surprised that the 9F was running around the 1st radius curves with no issues! It just shows that models that are made today are capable of things like that. Happy new year. - Nicholas.
Absolutely, my impression was that the modern, highly detailed locos would complain more about the tight curves but that wasn't necessarily the case. Thanks for watching 😃
Going back forty years and EVERYTHING went around radius 1, whether it was The Flying Scotsman or a 9F - and the rear pony trucks sat on the tracks with flanges. Of course the models were not so detailed back then, but you can't have everything!! (lol)
Absolutely, but like you said we've seen locos become a lot more realistic and more detailed over the last decade or so and that comes at a cost. It's interesting that some of the more recent larger models do kind of run though. Thanks for watching 😃
While besides a Bachmann 37 I don't have the largest of locos, I've only encountered 1 so far that can't handle 1st radius curves: The Hornby B12 - and only anticlockwise.
The brake stand on the left side of the tender conflicts with the loco footplate when turning to the left. Not a problem when running clockwise
I'd be interested to see 1st-radius curve tests in reviews - if only as a 'how does it fare' rather than a proper assessment. Being a review it's always good to see the extremities of performance as a baseline that people will only see better than on their own layouts
That's interesting about the B12. It certainly seems that the larger locos tend to be more fussy and tiny little things like you mention can make a big difference.
It would be interesting to include it in reviews but I'm just not sure how I'd do it since I don't have the space to keep North Poleton setup all year round 🤔 Thanks for watching 👍
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy That's understandable, thanks for considering it!
Interesting to see the 4-4-0 didn't like it. I wonder how the 0-4-4Ts would fare. (Hornby H Class, Bachmann Johnson).
Hmm that's an interesting one. The H Class has a fairly short wheelbase I think so that one possibly might be ok! Thanks for watching 😃
Because I have a small layout, EVERYTHING has to be able to negotiate 1st radius curves and not look silly. Your video just goes to show that you can't rule anything out. 😊
There's certainly a lot of options for locos to run on R1 curves, more than most people may think! Thanks for watching 😃
Interesting experiment with some surprising results as far as the 9F. I have eliminated even R2 curves on my layout so this shouldn't be a worry for me but I can see that some will still consider R1 due to space constraints, think I'd rather go a smaller scale in that case.
Yeah I think really if your layout is mostly going to be made up of R1 curves you're better sticking to the smaller locos or go for N, TT or 009. That said, if you have one or two R1 curves leading into a shed or siding for example, it's handy to know that the larger locos won't automatically derail in most cases. Thanks for watching 😃
The Hornby Eurostar will go around a 1st radius curve. But it will not clear lineside objects. Sometimes when it says 2nd radius, what it means is that there is insufficient clearance, rather than the loco cannot take the curve! You can make a loco go through a 1st radius by widening the gauge slightly. Thanks for uploading.
Yes that's what I was trying to demonstrate when I showed that certain locos wouldn't go under the bridges, or in the case of the Class 47 through the platform, because of the clearance issues. Thanks for watching 😃
Carriages and certain wagons can cause more issues than the locomotives with track radius. MK3 coaches can be difficult to gauge on a layout with curves less than radius 3 which is why you see more modern image layouts with stations only tending to do straight platforms rather than curved. I would dread to see a Oxford Rail railgun attempt a radius 1 layout.
Yes there's also the clearance to consider as well with longer coaches. It's the same issue that the Class 47 had on the platforms and bridges! Thanks for watching 😃
Interesting video well done
Have a safe New Year
Nick Australia
Glad you enjoyed it Nicholas! Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 😃
Hi I’ve built a first radius layout I tested my Bachmann 3f tender loco and the 4-4-0 dukedog will go round quite nicely. Great video this gave me the inspiration to build my 👍🚂
Awesome, glad this gave you some ideas! Thanks for watching 😃
Its logical that the 9f will handle the curve as its flangeless centre wheel effectively converts it into two smaller wheelbase locos a 2-4-0 and an 0-4-0 with sufficient space between them to follow the curve, while the Pacific's have a rigid and shorter wheel base. The hush hush seems to have a long wheelbase that allows it to stay on the track. Fun video!
Yes that was essentially my thinking too, although with the Pacifics and the Hush Hush I have to admit I was expecting the shorter wheelbase A3 to perform better than the longer W1 - but to be honest I think the older Hornby A3 is quite a fussy model. Thanks for watching 😃
Thanks for that. Could be useful for a hidden, speed restricted loop if you space issues.
Absolutely, in a similar way I've used setrack points in my fiddle yard mostly because they allowed me to get a bit of extra length into all the loops! Thanks for watching 😃
Great vid. I have half a loop first radius - more kinda semi storage/decorative than to be regular use track inside my two main loops - second and third radius ones. I did run my Bachmann class 37 on the first radius semi loop to see what happens, and it was fine. However, when I put a carriage on it, it derailed. Not a surprise! Thanks for sharing 👍 😊
That's really interesting about the Bachmann Class 37 as I've just had a comment from someone else who said that loco would run on even 2nd radius! Thanks for watching 😃
Seems the biggest factor is the amount of horizontal slack in the wheel set
Yes I do think that could be the key. The 9F though doesn't have much slack but it does have the flangeless centre wheel set which I think really helps in that case. Thanks for watching 😃
The 9F was honestly a shock. I would not expect such a large engine would fare so well on a small branch line set like this
Yeah I was definitely surprised by it too! Not that it's realistic in any way though 😅 Thanks for watching 👍
Very gorgeous layout and video. Cheered me up.
Thanks, if you're interested I just did a whole 5 part series on how I build the layout from start to finish. Thanks for watching 😃
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy That sounds interesting ...... I shall have a look.
Really liking the 0-6-0 outside cylinder tank engines. :)
Me too! There's something so charming about them. Thanks for watching 😃
I have a variant of the Hornby 9F that won't run on R3 curves!
Looks like the drivers had too much joy.
Haha, yes I noticed that when I was editing the videos. Looks like he's had a bit too much mulled wine over Christmas! Thanks for watching 😃
The Hornby 9F's loco & tender chassis dates back to 1971 and was designed to run on 1st radius curves.
Not this one, this is the brand new 9F that was redesigned from ground up as a brand new model according to Hornby and released a few months ago. Thanks for watching 😃
Non of my Hornby locos have a problem on 1st Radius curves but my Bachmann A4 just falls off it still has problems with 2nd Radius curves
That's really interesting! I know that Hornby supposedly try to make their locos compatible with lots of Setrack configurations but perhaps Bachmann prefer to focus more on the detail end of things which is why the A4 has more trouble. Thanks for watching 😃
I think all pre-1990 Triang and Triang/Hornby engines should run on 1st radius curves. One of the reasons that the 9F ran so well is that the chassis is still basically the same dimensions as the one from the 1970s. And that engine was designed to run on 1st radius curves.
If that was the case though wouldn't the A3 would have worked well too since that's roughly the same dimensions as the old Triang model. With the 9F I think it's more down to the smaller wheels and the flangeless centre wheel-set. Thanks for watching 😃
Back in the day Hornby Dublo came in one radius, and that was 15"... or 381mm for those that have embraced the metric system. Blind centre drivers were the order of the day on any 6 coupled wheel set or larger. That and lots or side play in the chassis. So it's amazing to see more modern larger locos running on tight radius. They look shit doing it but it's interesting information for behind the scenes work to get engines turned in tighter space.
Yeah, they definitely don't look realistic doing it but it's certainly interesting to see what these larger modern locos are capable of considering how much more complicated they are in comparison to their predecessors. Thanks for watching 😃
Excellent!
Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for watching 😃
Are they DCC?
These locos are DCC yes, but that doesn't bare any relation as to whether they fit on the track or not. Thanks for watching 😃
I dont run the same gauge as you, being N and Z, but I have to say I really enjoyed this video, what a great practical demo, also I really enjoyed your modelling and locos. I have some N gauge trains that just will not run on tight gauge turns !
Thanks, I'm glad you still enjoyed it! If you like the look of the layout, I just finished up a 5 part series where I showed how it was built from start to finish. Thanks for watching 😃
You opens me some interesting perspectives gentleman... For an industrial/branchline/light railway with nothing larger than a 0-6-0, R1 can be used as you see. For the big four, that put us in action engines like the LNER J15, the LMS 3F, the GWR Pannier tanks outside the 94xx (maybe not for this one, I have to try...) and the SR Terrier (maybe the E4 0-6-2, this one had to be tested...). As diesels, anything outside a shunter like a class 03 or a Gronk is out, but maybe a class 20 or 24 can be used, I will test this. I have to rule out DMUs, too long except the 4 wheels BR type.
Also, it is important to match the wagons and coaches.I think anything with bogies is out, except if very short. For passenger trains, you have to rule out the BR Mk 1 and coaches like the 63ft Thompson. The new range of 4 and 6 wheel coaches from Hattons and Hornby is potentially what can be used.
Everything is a question of compromises in model trains. R1 has limitations, but for specific settings, it's good to know you can get away with it. I have an idea for a light railway layout, and the engines I want to run on it are all R1 compatible. I just need to rethink all the plans for it, thanks for the test !
Yes I definitely think if a layout is made up mostly of R1 curves then you need to stick to the smaller locos and rolling stock. They'll look much better too than a large loco trying to lumber it's way round. I actually run the Hattons and Hornby 4&6 wheel coaches on this layout and they look great especially for a light railway or branchline setting. R1 would definitely be perfect for a layout like that, best of luck with the planning and thanks for watching 😃
That was fun experament. Some of the engines diffently suprised us.
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL🎊🎉
GOD BLESS 🚂💖🚂💖🚂💖🚂💖
Thanks, yeah it was definitely interesting to see how some of the larger locos reacted! Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 🥳
1st Radius Curves.
1st Rate in space,
1st Rate in not being prototypical,
And, 1st rate in surprises apparently.
Absolutely! Who likes playing by the rules anyway 😅 Thanks for watching 👍
is it me or does the J36 and class 812 look the same with some differences
You're definitely not a million miles away! They're actually both Scottish engines so it makes sense that they share some similar design features. Thanks for watching 😃
Fun experiment. I think modern locos is the key here that’s why the W1 and the 9F work and not the flying Scotsman. I have Atlas track who’s second radius is slightly tighter than Hornby. My older x-6-x models can have problems specifically the Tornado and A1 Great Northern
I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that. Much older models from the 80s/90s (and before) were far less detailed and were more capable of running round these tight curves.
As locos started becoming more detailed in the early 2000s though, they were more intricate/delicate and weren't so keen on going round R1 curves. As the manufacturers get better and better it seems they've found a happy medium now where they can still add all the detail but get the locos to run round all types of track - though they'll probably still keep recommending R2 as a minimum for good reason. Thanks for watching 😃
Great video 👍 I have a few R1 on my layout, no problem at all, at moderate speed at least.
Happy New Year 🎉🍾🎄🚂👍
Yep it definitely goes to show that you can get away with the odd R1 curve here and there if you really need to. Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 🥳
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy My new layout is now entirely made of R1 (and a few points). I can't run larger locomotives, but it's only 95x85 cm and I like it very much.
most large locos dont mind R1 curves, except the like of the A4 were the bogie is resticted,
i have not alot of space so have used R1 for years no problems, luckly i have managed to fit R2 on my layout now so much better all round, great video anyway 🙂
It does seem to depend on the individual loco as some of the medium sized locos didn't like the tight curves but then things like the Hush Hush were mostly ok! Like I said in the video though, I would still definitely recommend R2 where possible. Thanks for watching 😃
The oxford rail J27 jumps on the point, does it do this on all settrack points?
Only if you have R1 curves before/after it. The R1 curve is what causes the centre wheelset to not sit on the rails and so when it goes over the point it rides up on the check rails.
I do have some setrack points in the fiddle yard of my larger layout and the J27 is able to cope with those (just) but like I said in the video, it's very fussy and bumps/jumps around quite a bit anyway. Thanks for watching 😃
Though I am no fan of the Hornby Schools, I wonder whether its poor performance was due to its having traction tyres? Or was it, even worse, a tender drive loco?
Happy New Year!
They certainly didn't help but I think even if they were removed there was still too much of a wobble for the loco to fit on the track properly. Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you too 🥳
How did you find the power on the 9F? Did it vary its own speed or was it fairly consistent? The Bachmann 9fs are shocking for this
The 9F was absolutely fine. I still wouldn’t recommend running it on R1 unless you really have to but on my normal layout it’s one of my best runners. Thanks for watching 😃
Very surprised to see that a 9F can make it but the Pacific can't, I thought the smaller wheel sets of the Pacific would allow it to sneak through. but seeing that I realise I may have bought the wrong model for my layout... Suppose that's just another reason for me to get a 9F then haha. Lovely video!
I think the flangeless centre wheel set on the 9F has a big part to play with why it was able to run more consistently. The Pacific is a also an older model from a time where (I personally think) Hornby locos were much more delicate. Thanks for watching 😃
Really interesting video. I'm resigned to the fact that, unless I can get more space, I'm sticking with smaller loco's like Hornby Pecketts, Terriers (thankfully they are fantastic) and some smaller tender engines. I've been selling off my longer coach rolling stock so I could buy some Hatton's Genesis ones...they're not as prototypical but they look far better to me than a rake of 61ft coaches does going around a tight curve...seeing long coaches on tight curves has always looked ridiculous to me.
Hey Jonathan, it sounds like you've got the makings of a great Light Railway there! Pecketts and Terriers hauling short 4 & 6 wheel coaches would be perfect for that and the best thing about a Light Railway is that they were so varied you can basically run what you like! Thanks for watching 😃
Very good 👍
That’s the good thing about small tank engines they will run anywhere 😊
Yep you really have to have some extreme curves to upset an 0-4-0... but with shorter wheelbases stalling can become an issue too so swings and roundabouts. Thanks for watching 😃
Do you have a diesel engine with a Cobo wheel arrangement
Unfortunately not, otherwise it would have featured in the video. Thanks for watching 😃
Did you skip 2-6-0s? They’re very popular here in North America. And some models have floating middle drivers.
There's a 4-6-0 at 06:48 which is pretty close. That particular one seemed to run pretty well even without any floating or flangeless wheel sets. Thanks for watching 😃
You want to try the new Bachmann 37. Total rubbish the bogies hardly swing at all. Had to remove PECO set track curved points which are supposed to be radius 2. Bachmann told me themselves they know of the problem and offered money back.
That's interesting but good that Bachmann are aware of the issues and gave you the option of a refund. Thanks for watching 😃
Virtually anything will negotiate first radius curves, but will they pull large pieces of rolling stock with significant overhang without causing derailment - that it far more pertinent.
Except as we can see not everything will run happily on R1 curves, the Schools Class and the A3 being particularly notable. With regards to rolling stock, the shorter the better but bogie coaches would be more of a problem due to the clearance issues again. Thanks for watching 😃
Where did you get the platforms and bridges from?
The bridge kits are from LCut and the platform kit is from In the Greenwood. Thanks for watching 👍
Hmmm...well the 9F did very well, I think the class47 had a tougher time with the platform and tunnel clearances. I wonder how Mk1 coaches would do. The virtual 9F would be right off the rails!
Yeah the Class 47 really did struggle and I think it would be the same for Mk1s and any bogie coaches really. The long straight sides would just need so much clearance otherwise. Thanks for watching 😃
I wonder if it would be the same in N scale?
That's a tricky one, being smaller you'd think large N Gauge locos would have a better chance of going round tighter curves but the finer tolerances of the scale and lighter weight of the models might cause problems. Thanks for watching 😃
That 9f crew member looks ready to jump for his life! 😂
Yes, clearly he was concerned about the radius! 😅 Thanks for watching 👍
The old bachmann 37 will cringe about it but will go round the odd bit of 1st
The new one will only round 2nd and above but only if its perfectly laid I have some older peco and hornby 2nd radius and it whont run I found that it was a few degrees out of tolerances
And the bachmann 9f hahahah forget it that thing needs 4th radius or above lol
But u have completely sold me on the new hornby 9f thank you I have Been on the fence about it for so long
Yes from what I've heard Bachmann locos do seem to be more fussy so I wonder if Hornby are more conscious of the train set market who may not necessarily have a large layout, therefore they ensure their locos are capable of going round tighter curves.
The new Hornby 9F is really good though, definitely one of my favourite locos at the moment. If you haven't seen it already it might be worth checking out my review video of it to have a closer look. Thanks for watching 😃
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy I find it with bachmann locos to be hit and miss but still find bachmann to be better over all in value and detail but that's only my preference of course but I do like some hornby locomotives
You should have tried some multiple units
Unfortunately I don't have any multiple units. Still waiting for Bachmann to do the Class 117 in the later BR Green 😅 Thanks for watching 👍
It blows my mind that the 9F and Hush Hush were able to do it lol
I know, I still can't get over the fact that they were able to run on this tiny layout! Thanks for watching 😃
Maybe some locos need a guage tester beforehand?
Generally RTR models are pretty good with gauging these days. They may be 0.1mm out here or there but for the most part they tend to be pretty consistent. Thanks for watching 😃
Just here before anyone from Internet Historian's video finds this, might be a while
Yes would have been nice if they'd have credited it or at least asked for permission first 🙄😂 Thanks for watching 👍
So that’s why tender engines don’t shunt
(Thomas the tank engine reference)
The Island Of Sodor clearly has too many R1 curves then 😅 Thanks for watching 👍
Yes but they don’t look very realistic do they
No but large locos don't look exactly realistic on 2nd or 3rd radius either. This was simply an experiment to see what these different locos could actually cope with. Thanks for watching 😃
@@ThatModelRailwayGuy yes I agree that’s why all track filxly track so I can it as realistic as possible
These "radius 1, radius2, etc. designations tell me nothing. I don't know why the actual radius' can't be given. It seems silly to me Especially since a designation like "R1" can men almost anything.
R1 is short hand for a set radius. They don't mean "almost anything", in 00 gauge at least it's a standard of set track that the major manufacturers all recognise. For example, a PECO R1 curve is the same as a Hornby R1 curve.
R1 = 371mm R2 = 438mm R3 = 505mm R4 = 572.
If you're a beginner it can be a bit confusing to start off with but the easiest way to think about it is that R1 is the smallest/tightest curve with R4 and beyond being much larger/smoother curves. Hope that helps and thanks for watching 👍
The Trying Scotsman lol.
🤣