I played Death Stranding on the weakest M1 MacBook Air and it performed spectacularly well, but the App Store was horrible. To keep the game installed and updated the app store needed 3 times the size of the game free on my drive - 1x for the game, 1x to download an update which is the whole game again, and another 1x to unpack the downloaded update. Even though this particular thing is getting fixed in some capacity - I'm not touching the app store for a while after this
As a game developer for iOS, I hold the same feelings for the mobile App Store as well. It’s just not conducive to discovery for games like how Steam is on desktop. Getting noticed on mobile requires luck AND money for people. Which then that reality shapes the kinds of games that get made for mobile . If Apple really wants to take gaming seriously, and I think a part of them does, then they need to do what you said: step aside on desktop and let Steam do its thing, and they need to rethink their approach for it on the App Store. A tab for “Games” is just not enough when you have 200,000+ titles competing. Looking forward to your next vid!
Tangential, just me, etc. but I don’t dare put any games on my Mac because of my ADHD. I need it to be a work machine! I have enough things that can distract me on there! 🥲
I use the Mac App Store for a lot of apps, but games are different. I may want to play the games on Windows or even Linux in the future, and therefore I want to buy games on a cross platform store. For Mac only-apps I don’t mind buying it from the App Store.
Hello Matt, I have written a very long comment on another Mac gaming video about my thoughts on Mac gaming. I have been playing games on Mac since 1993 and at this current generation of hardware and software Apple now has great hardware for gaming. My previous long comment talked about several solutions such as, returning the Apple gaming app or was it Apple gaming centre on IOS, porting it to MacOS and selling games. But, one though I did not mention in my previous comment was with regards to anti-cheat. Maybe anti-cheat is harder to check and implement on MacOS than it is on IOS & iPadOS. Being as IOS and IPadOS are locked systems and installing cheats or cheating software would be tricky, or impossible to apply cheats to games in IOS /IPadOS. MacOS requiring admin privileges to access some areas of the OS, which may make anti-cheat harder to install and run without the user being aware of it and also users being able to modify it. I only mention this as the most popular PVP games don't seem to exist on the Mac. It's just a thought.
The issue with MacOS mostly stems from its market share specifically in gaming. No one buys a Mac for gaming so most studios don’t bother to make games for MacOS, especially since you have to make an ARM version, which isn’t that hard, and then convert it to Metal from Vulkan or DX11/12. There are other factors that increase cost so it’s not just click a button and it’s ready for Macs. The hardware was never the issue even during the Intel Mac days. Before then I would have said it was software as Macs only supported an outdated version of OpenGL as well as having ancient drivers for their GPUs making them slower than what was available on Windows because of that. Steam would help a ton for Mac gamers and I do agree on that front. Locking people to the App Store, which lacks many features that Steam has to make playing games or even installing them on alternative drives much easier. Apple needs to realize this too
It seems to be one off deals that lock games to the store so hopefully that changes And I do understand shaders and all of that. And that's stuff gptk addresses. You're right. It's not turnkey. But the tools are getting better.
I think the discussion around Mac gaming does have some valid points. I wouldn't write off gaming on Mac, you absolutely can. That being said, I would never recommend a Mac to someone who wanted a machine that was being used for gaming regularly. Mac misses most of the major releases. Linux has Proton to translate windows titles and this doesnt exist for Mac OS. Games are more often a social thing, either playing the same game together, or just discussing it with friends and if you can't play the speific game it prevents you from joining in. If the device is in addition to a PC or the person is a very casual gamer who isnt concerned with playing the latest modern titles then I think a Macbook is a great option, windows laptops are not great dailys at the moment in comparision to Macs (hardware wise). But if they want to play games regularly then I dont think I would be able to recommend one yet in good faith, there are just too many comprimises right now.
Id be curious to see how many Mac gamers also have Linux or Windows desktops for more demanding games. Since I personally fall into this category, that’s a major factor why Steam (or GOG) is a must for me. Playing Riven on my M1 Pro MacBook is very impressive but my 3080 desktop blows it out of the water. When I can play it on my desktop, having save sync is very convenient.
Even I also don't expect myself to Play League Of Legends on my 2014 Mac I mostly play in on my windows laptop. while my laptop is borrowed by my brother..
@@MattHorton It’s the PC master race that gives me the idea that you can’t play on a mac. But since I tried it. It’s really not bad. It performs the same as on the PC. I guess you really can’t trust fan boys. 😅 but some EA games aren’t available on mac. And I mostly play casual games. I’m somewhat surprised that my 2014 Mac mini somehow has better performance on my 2014 windows PC in League Of Legends with the same settings😅
Great video, Matt! I wonder if the ghost of Jony Ive’s thin, bead-blasted aluminum design aesthetic (both in product design and the Keynote-clean software) is toxic to the mainstream adoption of Mac gaming. So much of what Apple seems to project caring about is making Films and Photography, not play. That sentiment definitely rubs off on their more mainstream consumers who will never know Assassins Creed is in the App Store.
According to Rumors, Apple is building a game store with improvements to game center. Hopefully this will help with discoverability and maybe have some sales similar to steam.
Could Apple make the improvements to the App Store that Steam already has? That feels like a win-win, even if it just sidesteps the other issues you have talked about before. Seems like they *could* make discovery better, etc.?
Can the game developers not upload the native mac version to Steam? Are the game developers under contract to keep those games only on the App Store? If so, it's cause the developers had an incentive by Apple to put the work in to port it. If there is no contract they can just put the game on Steam and people can enjoy them there. I don't think developers have to go to Apple before they upload a mac game to Steam so why limit your own game.
Im using a Mac for Work and Privat but i dont wanna buy a seccond PC/Machine. For some Gaming a Mac is enough for me. Crossover + cs2 works good and WoW works also good.
if apple stoped insisting on this proprietary metal API and supported vulkan there would be so many more games. there would have been Proton for Mac working as great as it does on Linux. Valve was even working on it before apple said na were going to force our bs instead of using an open standard.
They just need to wait a few more years.. just keep in mind they are selling about 300 million gamig capable devices (240million iPhone, and Mac and iPad fill the remain 60million). So when there will be 1 billion gaming capable device in the world most profitable app store, why do you think developers will chose the Vulcan..? (Keep in mind even Steam users are just 120million, so half of the yearly sales surpass that, also the Apple app store renevue alone is more like the combined renevue of Google + Steam + Playstation store.. and the store renevue is the 30% cut off from the price, so when the 30% is more than the remain 70% is also more what the developers earn.. because on Apple devices the piracy is way lower like on the other platforms developers earn more..) So why do you think they need to switch to Vulcan? Vulcan is crap (the stability is the worst among all of them, both DirectX and Metal have smaller diff between min and max fps, alias you experience is more smooth with relatively stable 50fps like with 60fps what sometimes drops to 20fps.. you will deffinitly notice more when the 40fps drop happen), and also pay almost nothing.. just the 2x more Android users in the Google play store make only half of the profit like the Apple users, which means in Apple app store their work is 4x more effective (in money per user)
@@TamasKiss-yk4st its not about developers choosing vulkan, if Apple had not have dropped vulkan support in favor of forcing devs to use their proprietary software, and put money into helping an open standard improve and work better on their hardware Mac would have almost every game on steam working on it right now through proton like Linux does and would have years ago. All unix like systems would have similar game support to windows. if you think all the non gaming apple users will suddenly become gamers because they have them available that's pretty kookoo you look down your noes at the comparatively "small" number of steam users to app store users but steam represents almost the entire pc game market those people are the only ones buying the games and they are the ones you have to lure over if you really want to sell many, and good luck if they have to leave their steam library behind.
1000xResist through whisky squad woooo. I keep having high hopes that the steam deck and steam os will continue to lead to more interest in Mac ports because hey, there you at least need to branch out from just supporting x86/DX
I played Death Stranding on the weakest M1 MacBook Air and it performed spectacularly well, but the App Store was horrible. To keep the game installed and updated the app store needed 3 times the size of the game free on my drive - 1x for the game, 1x to download an update which is the whole game again, and another 1x to unpack the downloaded update. Even though this particular thing is getting fixed in some capacity - I'm not touching the app store for a while after this
It seems that will be fixed in Sequoia
This is now fixed.
As a game developer for iOS, I hold the same feelings for the mobile App Store as well. It’s just not conducive to discovery for games like how Steam is on desktop. Getting noticed on mobile requires luck AND money for people. Which then that reality shapes the kinds of games that get made for mobile .
If Apple really wants to take gaming seriously, and I think a part of them does, then they need to do what you said: step aside on desktop and let Steam do its thing, and they need to rethink their approach for it on the App Store. A tab for “Games” is just not enough when you have 200,000+ titles competing.
Looking forward to your next vid!
Yeah. I have a few apps live in the store and I'm thankful I don't depend on them for money
Agreed.
He's right - it's really really hard to install big games on a Mac, using an external drive. It's weird.
What are you playing on the Mac?
Tangential, just me, etc. but I don’t dare put any games on my Mac because of my ADHD. I need it to be a work machine! I have enough things that can distract me on there! 🥲
@@AndrewConkling fair!
Roblox, lol 😂
I use the Mac App Store for a lot of apps, but games are different. I may want to play the games on Windows or even Linux in the future, and therefore I want to buy games on a cross platform store. For Mac only-apps I don’t mind buying it from the App Store.
i'm pretty similar, honestly. but I have many more 3rd-party installed apps than mac store
Hello Matt, I have written a very long comment on another Mac gaming video about my thoughts on Mac gaming. I have been playing games on Mac since 1993 and at this current generation of hardware and software Apple now has great hardware for gaming. My previous long comment talked about several solutions such as, returning the Apple gaming app or was it Apple gaming centre on IOS, porting it to MacOS and selling games. But, one though I did not mention in my previous comment was with regards to anti-cheat. Maybe anti-cheat is harder to check and implement on MacOS than it is on IOS & iPadOS. Being as IOS and IPadOS are locked systems and installing cheats or cheating software would be tricky, or impossible to apply cheats to games in IOS /IPadOS. MacOS requiring admin privileges to access some areas of the OS, which may make anti-cheat harder to install and run without the user being aware of it and also users being able to modify it. I only mention this as the most popular PVP games don't seem to exist on the Mac. It's just a thought.
If this worked with MapleStory you might never see me again
also love the look of the new office set up!
the living room in this place is nuts. wish I could afford to buy this place
The issue with MacOS mostly stems from its market share specifically in gaming. No one buys a Mac for gaming so most studios don’t bother to make games for MacOS, especially since you have to make an ARM version, which isn’t that hard, and then convert it to Metal from Vulkan or DX11/12. There are other factors that increase cost so it’s not just click a button and it’s ready for Macs.
The hardware was never the issue even during the Intel Mac days. Before then I would have said it was software as Macs only supported an outdated version of OpenGL as well as having ancient drivers for their GPUs making them slower than what was available on Windows because of that.
Steam would help a ton for Mac gamers and I do agree on that front. Locking people to the App Store, which lacks many features that Steam has to make playing games or even installing them on alternative drives much easier. Apple needs to realize this too
It seems to be one off deals that lock games to the store so hopefully that changes
And I do understand shaders and all of that. And that's stuff gptk addresses.
You're right. It's not turnkey. But the tools are getting better.
I think the discussion around Mac gaming does have some valid points. I wouldn't write off gaming on Mac, you absolutely can. That being said, I would never recommend a Mac to someone who wanted a machine that was being used for gaming regularly. Mac misses most of the major releases. Linux has Proton to translate windows titles and this doesnt exist for Mac OS. Games are more often a social thing, either playing the same game together, or just discussing it with friends and if you can't play the speific game it prevents you from joining in.
If the device is in addition to a PC or the person is a very casual gamer who isnt concerned with playing the latest modern titles then I think a Macbook is a great option, windows laptops are not great dailys at the moment in comparision to Macs (hardware wise). But if they want to play games regularly then I dont think I would be able to recommend one yet in good faith, there are just too many comprimises right now.
Id be curious to see how many Mac gamers also have Linux or Windows desktops for more demanding games. Since I personally fall into this category, that’s a major factor why Steam (or GOG) is a must for me. Playing Riven on my M1 Pro MacBook is very impressive but my 3080 desktop blows it out of the water. When I can play it on my desktop, having save sync is very convenient.
Even I also don't expect myself to Play League Of Legends on my 2014 Mac I mostly play in on my windows laptop. while my laptop is borrowed by my brother..
you can though! I was playing tft yesterday 😅
@@MattHorton It’s the PC master race that gives me the idea that you can’t play on a mac. But since I tried it. It’s really not bad. It performs the same as on the PC. I guess you really can’t trust fan boys. 😅 but some EA games aren’t available on mac. And I mostly play casual games. I’m somewhat surprised that my 2014 Mac mini somehow has better performance on my 2014 windows PC in League Of Legends with the same settings😅
@@nelxcix pcmr is a really messed up term
Great video, Matt! I wonder if the ghost of Jony Ive’s thin, bead-blasted aluminum design aesthetic (both in product design and the Keynote-clean software) is toxic to the mainstream adoption of Mac gaming.
So much of what Apple seems to project caring about is making Films and Photography, not play. That sentiment definitely rubs off on their more mainstream consumers who will never know Assassins Creed is in the App Store.
Yeah that last bit is really the thing. They're so good at it on iPhone!
According to Rumors, Apple is building a game store with improvements to game center. Hopefully this will help with discoverability and maybe have some sales similar to steam.
I really don't think this will help
Could Apple make the improvements to the App Store that Steam already has? That feels like a win-win, even if it just sidesteps the other issues you have talked about before. Seems like they *could* make discovery better, etc.?
Sure! But missing steam will always be an issue
I don't think steam will pay apple 30% revenue for the games there...
that is not required?
Can the game developers not upload the native mac version to Steam? Are the game developers under contract to keep those games only on the App Store? If so, it's cause the developers had an incentive by Apple to put the work in to port it. If there is no contract they can just put the game on Steam and people can enjoy them there. I don't think developers have to go to Apple before they upload a mac game to Steam so why limit your own game.
It seems like the deals with Capcom and ubisoft specifically preclude this. Or are windowed in some way
Im using a Mac for Work and Privat but i dont wanna buy a seccond PC/Machine. For some Gaming a Mac is enough for me. Crossover + cs2 works good and WoW works also good.
if apple stoped insisting on this proprietary metal API and supported vulkan there would be so many more games. there would have been Proton for Mac working as great as it does on Linux. Valve was even working on it before apple said na were going to force our bs instead of using an open standard.
GPTK exists to get over the metal hurdle
@@MattHorton sounds like making the problem then selling the solution instead of doing the right thing to begin with. so apple business as usual.
They just need to wait a few more years.. just keep in mind they are selling about 300 million gamig capable devices (240million iPhone, and Mac and iPad fill the remain 60million). So when there will be 1 billion gaming capable device in the world most profitable app store, why do you think developers will chose the Vulcan..? (Keep in mind even Steam users are just 120million, so half of the yearly sales surpass that, also the Apple app store renevue alone is more like the combined renevue of Google + Steam + Playstation store.. and the store renevue is the 30% cut off from the price, so when the 30% is more than the remain 70% is also more what the developers earn.. because on Apple devices the piracy is way lower like on the other platforms developers earn more..)
So why do you think they need to switch to Vulcan? Vulcan is crap (the stability is the worst among all of them, both DirectX and Metal have smaller diff between min and max fps, alias you experience is more smooth with relatively stable 50fps like with 60fps what sometimes drops to 20fps.. you will deffinitly notice more when the 40fps drop happen), and also pay almost nothing.. just the 2x more Android users in the Google play store make only half of the profit like the Apple users, which means in Apple app store their work is 4x more effective (in money per user)
@@TamasKiss-yk4st its not about developers choosing vulkan, if Apple had not have dropped vulkan support in favor of forcing devs to use their proprietary software, and put money into helping an open standard improve and work better on their hardware Mac would have almost every game on steam working on it right now through proton like Linux does and would have years ago. All unix like systems would have similar game support to windows.
if you think all the non gaming apple users will suddenly become gamers because they have them available that's pretty kookoo you look down your noes at the comparatively "small" number of steam users to app store users but steam represents almost the entire pc game market those people are the only ones buying the games and they are the ones you have to lure over if you really want to sell many, and good luck if they have to leave their steam library behind.
1000xResist through whisky squad woooo.
I keep having high hopes that the steam deck and steam os will continue to lead to more interest in Mac ports because hey, there you at least need to branch out from just supporting x86/DX
I found 1000xRESIST ended up crashing a lot as it went on