I’m a retired ATR Pilot and Instructor and have been flying ATR 72 since 1995. I agree with you totally and will wait for the official accident report. There is far too much speculation surrounding this accident. You are very good at presenting the facts.
Dear sir i suggest new procedure to exit from flat spin... is to - putting flaps at 15 or if possible 30 degrees. - using engines in contrary of axe of spin one in feather. The opposite to pla in full / cla in max / pwr management in TO. - acting on rudder opposite axe with trim . - pitch tab down. All this actions must done rapidly just in order to exit from spin. And must done in high altitude in irder to gain and recover the speed and therefore the lift. Thank you for correct my approach if wrong.
@@aek7384 Is not that simple, the gyroscopic forces on an propeller aircraft are huge, there is a precession effect when you reach the spin. When you try to down the nose, the precession moves the nose to the left, when the plane moves the propeller to the left. The only way to get exit from a flat spin is with a spin parachute.
Voepass is from my hometown, we are very sad here in Brazil, we still don't understand what happened and we are waiting for the investigations. I love your videos!
This really is the kind of reporting on an aviation incident that it 100% absent in the news media. Your statement: "In aviation we rely on facts" is so spot on. Nothing but appreciation for Capt. Nodal's great reporting and insight. Thank you sir!
2 місяці тому+32
Thank you Magnar for this thorough and factual update.
The growing numbers of channels dealing with aviation accidents unfortunately doesn't provide us with better information, but leads to an increasing number of pure speculations and click bait. Your channel is one of the few exceptions, providing viewers with fact based informations instead of wild speculations. Besides Mentour and Blancolirio, it is one of the rare trustworthy and professional sources on civil aviation on the internet. Thank you for your work, I really appreciate it!
I have been watching your ATR videos for some time now. Detailed and Factual. I am glad Mentor Pilot made a reference to your nice work in his recent video.
Capt Magnar is still the best source of information regarding this particular accident. Let me add something about meteorology here: That 2ºC decrease in temperature for each 1000ft of height is a standard gradient. For understanding standards - it's like a ruller used to measure something. This gradient is kind of a ruller of nature. It's EXPECTED to work this way, but the nature has it's particular behavior. Not every time we will see this exact behavior. When there's a cumulus cloud associated to a moving mass of cold air (cold front), there can be more aggressive vertical thermal gradients in that specific region. It's called 'super adiabatic gradient', that can reach up to 3,42ºC for each 100 meters (not feet) of height. This causes not only ice formation conditions, but in many cases severe turbulence. Convective turbulence. In a practical example, you can be cruising in a T>0ºC and encounter a T
Excellent content as usual! You have the best ATR channel on YT by far. I've been following Fly with Magnar since its early days. Thanks for pulling this valuable content together. May the victims RIP. Best wishes from Brazil.
Happy I wasn't crazy commenting that it's close to impossible to recover from a spin with two wing mounted engines at previous video. Great explanation again. Always learning something from every video. Thanks!
Thanks Magnar for this calm and factual video ! For everyone scared by hearing "ATR" and "ice" in the same sentence, look at the Sens4Ice project. They used an ATR to study specific icing condition, and did that safely
I find it strange how emotionally attached people are to their ideas, calling others liars or ignorant if said idea is different. We need to calm down. Thank you Magnar for what you do.
Hello Mr. Magnar, I want to thank you for the excellent work in explaining how this aircraft can be operated safely and reassuring potential passengers who, especially here in Brazil, have come to fear flying in ATRs.
In July 2013 a serious incidente similar to Voepass Flight 2283 accident occur in Northeast of Brasil, with ATR-72-212A PP-PTU of TRIP Linhas Aéreas, too with 64 people onboard. Aircraft enter in ice formation conditions, stall and fall ~5000 feet, but in this case the pilots manage to reestablish the flight, and safety land in destination. When notice ice formation conditions the anti-icing devices Level 1 was turned on, but not Level 2 and 3 - pneumatic boots for wings and nacelles remain off.
@@juanmanuelgomezmartinez3795 You are right, in that case they activate the Level 2 - the electric anti-icing devices: Level 1: all the probes, always on. Level 2: Anti icing on whenever icing condition exist.* Level 3: When the amber icing detect light comes on. Then turn deicing equipment on.
Thank you for your professionalism on explaining the known facts so far. The way you approach the themes is extremely clear and factual. Your channel is a valuable asset for Aviation, thank you Captain!
Been following you since your Bangkok days. Watched a video of Mentour Pilot and there was you giving a talk to his patreon crew! On this accident. Great going, Captain!
ATRs are the standard for regional routes where I live (NZ). Have always enjoyed flying on them and haven’t ever felt unsafe in one (and they regularly fly some pretty terrifying approaches in some extreme weather - I’ve even been in one where an engine had a brief flame out). Regardless of the outcomes of the final reports are, I don’t think I’d be any more concerned about being in one than any other type of aircraft type.
Magnar as a pilot is always above the clouds but also always so down to earth. Thank you for focusing on the facts. Sad accident but a really great video about it.
I was waiting for this video, thank you Magnar! Could you please comment on the crash of the Cessna 208 just outside Bangkok today, it seems to be a very strange accident.
Aviation Herald listed an incident with this aircraft on Mar 11th 2024 with hydraulic problems and a tailstrike on landing. After repair, pax reports of bad airconditioning and other related effects.
Excellent work, Mr. Magnar! I would like to know from any Brazilian ATR pilot if it is common in Brazil to use the 3rd level of deicing, inflatable boots. The weather event in Vinhedo was extreme and unusual. I live 11 km from the crash. There is a possibility that the autopilot guided the aircraft until it stopped working and the pilots may have had little time to react. Let's wait for the official report. We may have news within thirty days. Greetings from Campinas, Brazil, the city of Viracopos International Airport.
I saw other videos in which they show ADSB data. After they asked to start the descend, which is normal in that distance to airport, they started descending, but ATC told them to keep 17k for now, suddenly the pilot pulled up hard to climb to 17 k again and he stalled it by the PANIC PULL done. Then they didnt get it out and even kept the power on which produced a Flat Spin. I took Spin Training on Piper Tomahawks which are hard to get out of spins. That was a Panic Pull and then spinned and didnt push down enough and kept power on too. Many Pilot Errors.
Although it is too early and misleading to speculate about icing as a contributor factor in this terrible accident, it is worthwhile comparing 2283 with Aero Caribbean 883, TransAsia 791, and Azul 5591 (the only non-fatal upset on this list), all of them caused by icing. It's very impressive how things can deteriorate pretty fast unless the crew acts very quickly. Thanks once more.
1. The crash occurred during severe weather conditions, with possible icing being a factor, though not confirmed. 2. The aircraft was in a flat spin when it crashed, as confirmed by Brazil's Aeronautical Accidents Investigation and Prevention Center (CENIPA). 3. Both the Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder have been recovered, although the latter did not meet current regulatory requirements. 4. The investigation will take time, with a preliminary report expected 30 days after the accident, and a full investigation potentially lasting one to two years.
Hi Magnar. Thanks for the valuable information, for sticking to the facts, and for stressing the importance of the accident report, which states that we should all wait and see what happened. I have a question: Does the FMS calculate the "Ice Bug" speed based on the altitude and weight of the aircraft? Thank you very much.
@@FlywithMagnar Thank You Magnar. 👍 I used to fly Saab2000 for Crossair in Switzerland and we were using İce speeds from the "ice booklet". Since we were rather fast and could fly up to FL310 (before RVSM) icing was not a big issue except for Takeoffs and Landings.
12:22 - During the filming of the movie "Top Gun" (1986) the aerobatic pilot Art Scholl died when his Pitts S-2 - hired as camera plane; crashed into the sea while executing a "flat spin" to record the horizon rotating during the maneuver to be used in the film.
your maturity, patient and non attention selling.. calm personality, nature is so inspiring sir. Thank you for this folllow-on update. so sad that regulators IN ALL COUNTRIES themselves sometimes create exceptions. Maybe it was really not much consequential in this accident.. and hopefully the other parameters from the FDR do adequately help.. ..but still.. 18 months leeway.. for a crucial equipment like FDR.. is a bit too much (in my view). Yes, option the initial chain of events turn out to be way different than the ones speculated
Hi Magnar. Great video. I would like to know what pilot and airshow you got the grab of the small plane doing a really excellent example of a knife-edge spin. It was really well done. Thanks for the awesome content you produce. I look forward to every video you post.
Nicely said! In all productions on UA-cam, one I have yet to see is how the different parameters on FDRs relate to physical actions of the aircraft. I have seen many where the graph is shown and a torrent of analyzing discussion ensues, but it’s still not clear to grasp what each line is showing. Maybe I should take an aeronautics engineering course!
Oh..So even those one-engine certified manouver aircrafts are NOT trained/able to recover from a FLAT spin? "just"for a 'normal spin', then? Wow...thank u for the excellent explanations! Great video.
Thank you very much for this informative Update!👍 - We will indeed have to wait for what the Investigators are releasing. It´s not only that usually Crashs are "Swiss-Cheese-Events", not "Single-Issue-Events". Often the Investigation discovered contributing or even causing facts, too, that nobody could imagine before - the Crash of Yeti 691 is a good example for this.
Just curious, could an engine entering into Beta (aka Discing) uncommanded, while the other engine left at cruise/full power potentially cause the aircraft to spin? I'm thinking something similar to the Khabarovsk Airlines 463 crash, where one of the props on the L-410 went into beta inflight due to a mechanical failure. Note it's very unlikely this happened with Voepass given there's a severe ice SIGMET in the area, but still an interesting thought exercise nonetheless.
As you said, Stall recovery for ATR72: 1) push 2) Flaps 15 3) add power??? 4) Speed. Why is it necessary to add power in a stall with a propeller aircraft? The gyroscopic forces are enormous, as the P factor. Doesn't that create a yaw moment on the aircraft, which is exactly what we want to avoid? Isn't power supposed to be applied AFTER the aircraft regains speed and attitude?
@Fly with Magnar, I enjoyed your explaination of the ATR's robust automated systems. But have you considered or will you conside this ATR may have encountered atmospheric conditions beyond icing? In severe icing conditions aren't strong downdrafts & updrafts possible? If this flight "hit" one, likely an updraft just after starting its decent wouldn't it increase in altitude as flight tracking shows. I did use the word "hit" purposely because entering an updraft or downdraft, as well as exiting one, could severel decrease airspeed. Under this condition the ATR might have started a "flat spin" right a way without pilot error or automated malfunction.
Excellent consideration, Weldon! I would take it a step further and ask myself how could you possibly recover from this situation if there is no effective airflow reaching the vertical stabilizers that could lower the nose due the t-tail design ...!?
I can understand the author's reluctance to address some of the comments shown at the outset of the video. However I am going to play devil's advocate for a moment. The comments point to a general loss of confidence in the safety of this aircraft and the competence of the flight crews. This public perception is quite understandable considering the repeat cases of fatal accidents involving icing or pilot errors. So if we don't want to condemn ATR or the pilot community involved in operating this aircraft, we need to compare the ATR history to that of similar aircraft - perhaps the de Havilland Dash 8 or similar. A detailed analysis such as those found on this channel describing the sequence of events that led to a specific crash is fine as a post-event follow up. However it doesn't really help the public make an informed decision as to whether or not to avoid flying on this aircraft. It would be a real public service if one of these crash-analysis channels on UA-cam would look at the general category of turbo props over some meaningful time period - and try to identify a trend or lack of trend according to aircraft manufacturer or some other relevant criteria.
OK, now add in a violence updraft just after the ATR started its decent. Would explain the suden increase in altitude. "Hitting" the updraft on entery and exit could causedrastic loss of speed. The ATR could then be out of aerodynamic flight. From there a "flat spin" is very probable.
In this case where the aircraft was in a flat spin, spinning counterclockwise (viewed by the pilot), couldn't you use increased power on the left engine and decreased power on the right engine to stop the rotation?
Quite right to wait for the facts. I wish more aviation channels would do likewise. Even the so-called Air Safety Institute of AOPA are rushing out videos titled “early analysis”, which in truth are speculative and hypothetical, coming as they do before the investigators have done their work.
13:15 nice animation illustrating why the vertical stabiliser is stalled & the rudder is ineffective in a flat spin. It's good to learn some basic aerodynamics I'd managed to not come across before. I guess every aerobatic pilot & possibly multi engine pilot knows this.
Does the stick pusher activate at the same AoA with and without icing? Is it possible that the ATR will stall due to icing without the stick pusher activation?
Another possible scenario is the stalling of the horizontal stabilizer, perhaps due to ice accumulation, preventing efficient recovery. That peculiar sound of the engines could be that trying to counteract the direction of rotation, thrust was applied at full power to one of the engines and the other at idle to try to stop the rotation.
A tailplane stall may happen when you extend the flaps to maximum position when there is a considerable amount of ice on the leadihng edge of the horizontal stabilizer, and the speed is relatively high. When this happens, the aircraft will pitch violently nose down. Some aircraft were lost because of that in the 1950s and 1960s. The first ATR model, the 42-300 was ecuipped with flaps 0-15-30-45 positions. Tests showed that the horizontal stabilizer could stall when it was contaminated with ice in flaps 45 position. The remedy was to put a guard on the flaps lever 45 position, and only allow use of flaps 45 for emergency landing in normal atmospheric conditions. Later ATR models have maximum 30 or 35 degrees flaps. Therefore, I think we can rule out this scenario.
Thanks for the video. Yet another question: If you get into a flat spin with a dual engine plane, rotating right, why doesn't it help setting the left engine in idle and apply full thrust on the right engine, counteracting the spin?
I would guess that since the wings are stalled, it doesn't matter what the engines are doing, without the appropriate airflow over the wings and control surfaces the plane is as uncontrollable as a falling rock.
Just a layman's question: In a twin engine plane, can't you use asymmetrical power to counter the spin? I mean brake the outer engine by throttle or prop angle? Magnar knows how to make even people like me understand the basic forces in action in this incidence. Heja Sverige.
My understanding is that the ATR can split control of the elevators with enough opposing force on the control column. If the stick pusher activates (captain side) but the FO pulls back, can this cause a split elevator? This could then apply a rotational force.
It's interesting that it seems that from the accident video as though the aircraft started spinning in the opposite direction closer to the ground. It's almost as though they managed to finally recover from the spin and then entered a secondary spin (maybe pulled up too quickly, quite understandable if the case, given the ground was fast approaching).
Uma pergunta, os tubos pitot se congelar , vao pasar a velocidade errada aos instrumentos? e isso pode ter confundido os pilotos a acharem que estavam mais rapido do que estava e no final entrar em stall? e se a velocidade é passada errada ao computador o sistema anti-stall ainda funciona?? One question, if the pitot tubes freeze, will they pass the wrong speed to the instruments? And could this have confused the pilots into thinking they were going faster than they were and in the end entering a stall? And if the wrong speed is passed to the computer, does the anti-stall system still work?
I believe the stall protection acts mainly on the angle of attack sensors, that are less susceptible though not immune to icing. I also thought that the preceding gain in altitude pointed to a possible scenario similar to AF 447. It's interesting how the A-330 gave those pilots the liberty to stall the plane under "alternative law" despite the plane computers sensing the stall coming. So in that case the unreliable speed condition removed the "confidence" of the automation to save the plane in spite of the pilots. I don't know how the protective layers work in the ATR during unreliable speed, but I'm not personally ruling that out for now.
*I understand this is theoretical and no time was left anyway But: Can changing the center of gravity (by moving all passengers to the front) stop the FLAT descend?
That is a good question. I do not know the answer. Maybe. However, if the aircaft managed to exit the flat spin, it would still be in a normal spin. And transport aircraft are not designed to recover from spins.
I was thinking the same thing. If all the passengers could somehow get to the front on the plane quickly. That could help bring the nose down. Which could potentially recover the spin.
How are the effects of gravity on the passengers in a flat stall? Would they be weightless/pushed into the ceiling or is it so slow that they still have some forces pulling them downwards to the ground?
@@hummingbird.. The centrifugal forces pulling them to the sides would be extreme. I doubt anyone would be able to move at all. Trying to get everyone to the front would be impossible in the amount of time they had. As a pilot, I'm inclined to think "there must be something I can do in that situation" but really, the only reliable thing is to avoid that situation at all costs...
Capt Magnar, what would the passengers onboard be feeling during this short trip to earth? Would they’ve been passed out from the g force’s or would they have been able to know the crash was going to be fatal? Sad regardless but even worse in my thinking if the passengers knew what was happening and going to happen in the minute or so it took to happen.
Why are there no reports of the pilots contacting ATC during the final moments of flight? Is it possible cabin pressure was lost and the pilots may have been rendered unconscious? Hard to fathom no communications or distress signals. If they were conscious I am sure they were doing all they knew to do. But once in a flat spin shouldn't they have told ATC what was happening so there would be less speculation?
most likely because of time. there are priorities what to do in emergency. FIRST FLY THE AIRPLANE as we see that was not checked so for second -navigating and third -communication was too early.
It can mask ice buildup on the flight controls. When the autopilot is on, you don't know how much force it is using to maintain control. Then when its limits are exceeded it will turn off, the pilots will have a very difficult time controlling the airplane. In normal situations, ice should never form on the flight controls, only on the leading edges of the wings and stabilizer. But severe ice is much more dangerous than normal icing conditions. This is true of every airplane. No airplane is designed to sustain flight in severe icing. The only option is to escape by descending.
How many flights….. How many accidents….. risk worthy…. Earn money….. But this time COULD BE DIFFERENT because there is a scary video of the same airplane and the same accident. This will put a lot of pressure on investigators and all parties to do THE RIGHT THING
Well one of those statements rewritten as a question, might answer many people's concerns. "Does the ATR have an abnormally high accident rate when operating in icing conditions?" I truly am curious about that and would be interested in the answer. I recently flew from Helsinki to Tallinn on an ATR, in snow, and was quite concerned. Maybe it wasn't justified, but I would like the actual facts.
Excluding this accident, there have been six fatal accidents with ATR aircraft where ice has been a contributing factor. Two accidents happened because the aircraft was not de-iced before take-off. Three accidents happened because the crew let the aircraft fly at a speed below the icing bug (minimum allowed speed in icing conditions.) In all of those cases, the aircraft stalled, and the crew failed to apply the correct recovery procedure. The sixth accident was American Eagle Flight 4184. This accident stands out because of the circumstances around it. At that time, ATR's manuals were vague, so you can put some blame on the manufacturer. But after 1995, the procedures have been crystal clear. If the pilots had followed them, many lives would have been saved.
Would be interesting indeed. Not sure if there will be a real answer to such questions. In the end pilots are responsible not to fly in severe icing conditions, they don't want to die as well. All equipment helping pilots when it does happen are basically safety measures you shouldn't need if I'm correct. You can compare it with Nepal where they fly a certain brand of aircraft a lot and a lot of accidents happen. That's not because of the type of aircraft but because of really bad piloting and communications between pilots most of the time. From the video's I've seen. I don't fly often as I always have confidence in the pilots. But I wouldn't step in any aircraft in Nepal to do some nice scenic tour between the mountains in the Himalaya. That's not so much about the aircraft although maintenance might play a role in some accidents but mainly the pilots and their behaviour. Wouldn't worry flying them in Finland :)
@@FlywithMagnar In 2013 occur a serious incident with a ATR-72 212A in Northeast of Brasil in similar conditions, in this case the pilot regain control after fall ~5000 feet - despite errors make by him and by the co-pilot. If put more details about the YT censorship block the message.
We could determine the fatal accident rate for ATRs per hours flown. But we probably can't determine how many of those hours were in icing, or how that relates to other aircraft types.
would it be possible to get out of a flap spin by retract flap on one side, and fully extend on the other side in attempt to induce a roll? if control surfaces (ailerons, flaps, trim, etc) of the wings could be coordinated to increase the size of one wing’s total surface and reduced the size on the opposite, might that roll the aircraft to the point the rudder could get the nose pointed down and gain airspeed?
Dear sir i suggest new procedure to exit from flat spin... is to - putting flaps at 15 or if possible 30 degrees. - using engines in contrary of axe of spin one in feather. The opposite to pla in full / cla in max / pwr management in TO. - acting on rudder opposite axe with trim . - pitch tab down. All this actions must done rapidly just in order to exit from spin. And must done in high altitude in irder to gain and recover the speed and therefore the lift. Thank you for correct my approach if wrong.
I think that the videos with the plane spinning for so long is the source of intense speculation about the ATR 72. People feel that the plane has a problem because they can not escape that. I knew experienced aerobatic pilots that died due to flat spins, so I doubt that most commercial pilots can recover. They are trained to avoid entering a spin, and planes are designed with systems to prevent it too. Until the preliminary report no one can rule a problem with that particular plane. But we can rule out that ATR 72 has a flaw because it can not escape a flat spin or can not fly for extended time in severe icing conditions.
In 2013 happens a serious incident with an ATR-772-212A in Northeast of Brazil similar to this one. In that occasion the pilot recover the control after fall 5000 feet.
@@Sokol10 We can't say it's similar with no preliminary report. A spin is the result of a cause and the recovery is the result of pilot action or automated actions by the plane.
Some ATR72 flaws. FAT WINGS, fast ice formation, sensitive to vertical wind shear (turbulence), flat landing attitude that leads to easy tail strike, air conditioner issues…….
Flight data from flight radar 24 showed the aircraft's ground speed was fluctuating drastically on climb out without any change in altitude up to FL 170 with no communication to ATC and continued fluctuating throughout flight until it decreased sharply to 149mph to 99 mph to 49mph whilst falling. Can you address. I'm a pilot from Trinidad and Tobago
Seems like impossible at all, even if counter spin rotating it'd able to stop spin, but the most problem part is to build speed up with full flaps then it can't make it in time from 10k feet per minute. The Elevator doesn't work in flat spin, unless if there is forward airflow from build speed up.
To escape from a flat spin in a high tail aircraft the aircraft needs to be rolled 90º so the wings are vertical. The rudder is used to direct the nose down and build airspeed and develop airflow over the elevators. The aircraft is gently levelled and pulled out of the dive as control authority is regained. This recovery action requires around 30,000 feet to carry out successfully, so the Brazil accident could not have been avoided.
I wonder if the pilots at some point opted to try and use asymmetric thrust to "break" or "elongate" the rotations 🤔 they almost seemed they might get nose down at one point.
this is so rare to happen that there is this spiraling type of stall. Did it happen before so we can draw conclusions what was the cause? Almost like plane speed dropped to zero and then entering this spiraling pattern. Engine failure? why the pilots didnt push the nose down? was altitude too low for this maneuver?
It was a spin, not a spiral. A spin is easy to get into if you stall a plane and you have yaw in one direction. There have been many accidents caused by unrecoverable spins.
The point about not pushing the nose down is addressed by how that works. They can't literally push the nose down, they can just push the stick forward. Of course, as a pilot you think that is pushing the nose down becuse that's usually what happens. As Magnar has explained, the way that works depends on a smooth air flow over the elevators in the tail. They move down to create the extra tail lift to push the nose down. As the plane stalls and rotates in a flat spin, that simply does not work, becuse there is no front-to-back airflow over the tail. The pilots were likely pushing the stick forward, but that made no difference. Sadly, they had no way to push the nose down.
_It looks like you are the Official Speaker of CENIPA. _*_ONE to THREE YEARS_*_ to _*_BEGIN(?!)_*_ to uncover the reasons behind the accident, as you have affirmed, is a very long time, don’t you think Mr. Magnar? Really(!!) Mr. Magnar, _*_ONE year to *BEGIN_*_ to uncover the reasons behind the accident is in itself a very long time, but one to _*_THREE_*_ years, is extremely outrageous for the families of the victims._
Prelim report in a few weeks, full investigation up to two years is the norm for these type of events. In the USA the FAA has over 800 accidents as "Work in Progress" for a huge range of aircraft. Since none of us know the cause of the crash its premature to blame it on the aircraft.
This will be one interesting Mayday /Air Crash Investigations episode. I'd really like to know what findings they are going to come up with on this accident. I'm going to have my popcorn and my beer ready. Probably have to wait a year or two. Rest in peace to all those who perished. Hope I never see something like this again. Hope air travel becomes safer from this. This shit was horrific after I saw that I got nightmares. I couldn't imagine being on that plane. I hope they figure out something.
The ATR is a good aircraft. Any pilots flying ANY turboprop need to remember that just because it may be 60 Degrees on the ground, once you get to cruise you can easily be at or well below 32 degrees. These Pilots upon receiving the NOTAM of ice from 12,000-21,000ft should have delayed or canceled the flight or just flown below the weather. I’d have planned that Flight (If accepting it) to cruise at 10,000ft, giving myself 2,000ft of padding. You certainly don’t want to sit smack dab in the middle of severe Ice at 16,000/17,000ft. You also wouldn’t want to try and climb above it, because you’ll pick it up on the way up and then have to go through it again to get back down. Sad deal.
@@lenseofanomad Weak attempt at trying to hit my credibility. Try harder. I’ve flown Turboprops for most of my commercial career, In every type of WX conditions imaginable. I hold type ratings in the following commercial aircraft : -291HRS in the Saab 340-Delta Connection -411HRS in the Beech 1900(Single Pilot)-Alpine Air -434HRS in the EMB-120 -United Express -816HRS in the Dash 8 Q400-United Express -1,059HRS in the ATR-72-Empire/FedEx Feeder -Current A320 Captain at a US Legacy Carrier. This accident has everything to do with Pilots either not getting or ignoring the NOTAM of the of severe icing between FL12,000-FL21,000ft. The majority of that flight the airframe was likely overwhelmed by accumulating liquid cooled water droplets that froze to the aircraft immediately. This was not some light rime ice. If you understood basic physics, aerodynamics, weight+balance, center of gravity, and the effects severe icing accumulation changes the flight characteristics of all of the above. I imagine the Pitot tubes froze, AP suddenly disconnects due to unreliable airspeed, hands a now much heavier, out of trim, shifted center of gravity to the Pilots who due to inaccurate airspeed could be thinking they are stalling or even over speeding. To get an ATR that was flying in severe ice, holding a constant airspeed, heading, and altitude until something happened that resulted in a flat spin. To get an ATR into a flat spin requires a VERY specific set of parameters. The ground/airspeed falling off around the time they left 17,000ft, briefly held at 16,000ft and then everything falls off. Air/Groundspeed as low as 30-40kts while vertical speed that got as fast as -10,000FPM vertical descent. I think the pilots were flying on AP, in Severe Icing conditions that overwhelmed the Pitots/Static ports, the AP suddenly disconnected, startling the Pilots who went from Autopilot to hand flying an airplane that is out of trim, shifted CG, hundreds of pounds of ice accumulation, changed shape of the airfoil, which requires a change in AOA, plus unreliable airspeed. A confusing, challenging and chaotic situation. They should have flown under the NOTAM of icing conditions, which their cruise altitude was smack dab in the middle of. They should have never put that aircraft in those conditions. You fly below the Ice, but still keep an eye on the precipitation, keep an eye on the OAT, Dew-point, and keeping the aircraft far away from any possible icing conditions.
@@rotaero So was the crew of Air France 447 an Airbus A330 from Rio to Paris who’s Pitots froze, AP disconnected and the startled FO pulled the side stick in a nose up position all the way from 32,000ft to impact with the Ocean.
I’m a retired ATR Pilot and Instructor and have been flying ATR 72 since 1995. I agree with you totally and will wait for the official accident report. There is far too much speculation surrounding this accident. You are very good at presenting the facts.
what were u making in pay as an ATR pilot/instructor? what are u doing nowadays? amazing career!
Where did you fly your ATR? :)
Dear sir i suggest new procedure to exit from flat spin... is to
- putting flaps at 15 or if possible 30 degrees.
- using engines in contrary of axe of spin one in feather. The opposite to pla in full / cla in max / pwr management in TO.
- acting on rudder opposite axe with trim .
- pitch tab down.
All this actions must done rapidly just in order to exit from spin. And must done in high altitude in irder to gain and recover the speed and therefore the lift.
Thank you for correct my approach if wrong.
@@aek7384 You forgot the 5th step, which is to have a miracle happen or alternatively to wakeup and stop dreaming.
@@aek7384 Is not that simple, the gyroscopic forces on an propeller aircraft are huge, there is a precession effect when you reach the spin. When you try to down the nose, the precession moves the nose to the left, when the plane moves the propeller to the left. The only way to get exit from a flat spin is with a spin parachute.
Voepass is from my hometown, we are very sad here in Brazil, we still don't understand what happened and we are waiting for the investigations. I love your videos!
This really is the kind of reporting on an aviation incident that it 100% absent in the news media. Your statement: "In aviation we rely on facts" is so spot on. Nothing but appreciation for Capt. Nodal's great reporting and insight. Thank you sir!
Thank you Magnar for this thorough and factual update.
The growing numbers of channels dealing with aviation accidents unfortunately doesn't provide us with better information, but leads to an increasing number of pure speculations and click bait.
Your channel is one of the few exceptions, providing viewers with fact based informations instead of wild speculations. Besides Mentour and Blancolirio, it is one of the rare trustworthy and professional sources on civil aviation on the internet.
Thank you for your work, I really appreciate it!
I have been watching your ATR videos for some time now. Detailed and Factual. I am glad Mentor Pilot made a reference to your nice work in his recent video.
Magnar is a genius. I love watching his videos. Today i learnt a lot from him again. Thanks
His soothing voice really hit the chord , In a complete contrast to social media crowd
Capt Magnar is still the best source of information regarding this particular accident.
Let me add something about meteorology here:
That 2ºC decrease in temperature for each 1000ft of height is a standard gradient.
For understanding standards - it's like a ruller used to measure something. This gradient is kind of a ruller of nature. It's EXPECTED to work this way, but the nature has it's particular behavior. Not every time we will see this exact behavior.
When there's a cumulus cloud associated to a moving mass of cold air (cold front), there can be more aggressive vertical thermal gradients in that specific region.
It's called 'super adiabatic gradient', that can reach up to 3,42ºC for each 100 meters (not feet) of height.
This causes not only ice formation conditions, but in many cases severe turbulence. Convective turbulence.
In a practical example, you can be cruising in a T>0ºC and encounter a T
Excellent content as usual! You have the best ATR channel on YT by far. I've been following Fly with Magnar since its early days. Thanks for pulling this valuable content together. May the victims RIP. Best wishes from Brazil.
Happy I wasn't crazy commenting that it's close to impossible to recover from a spin with two wing mounted engines at previous video. Great explanation again. Always learning something from every video. Thanks!
Thanks Magnar for this calm and factual video ! For everyone scared by hearing "ATR" and "ice" in the same sentence, look at the Sens4Ice project. They used an ATR to study specific icing condition, and did that safely
Thank you Magnar for this video! Have safe flights!
I find it strange how emotionally attached people are to their ideas, calling others liars or ignorant if said idea is different. We need to calm down. Thank you Magnar for what you do.
Im here to check on this fine pilot from mentour.
Welcome!
Me too //
Hello Mr. Magnar, I want to thank you for the excellent work in explaining how this aircraft can be operated safely and reassuring potential passengers who, especially here in Brazil, have come to fear flying in ATRs.
In July 2013 a serious incidente similar to Voepass Flight 2283 accident occur in Northeast of Brasil, with ATR-72-212A PP-PTU of TRIP Linhas Aéreas, too with 64 people onboard.
Aircraft enter in ice formation conditions, stall and fall ~5000 feet, but in this case the pilots manage to reestablish the flight, and safety land in destination.
When notice ice formation conditions the anti-icing devices Level 1 was turned on, but not Level 2 and 3 - pneumatic boots for wings and nacelles remain off.
Hello. Level 1 is always on in flight
I am aware of this incident. I might make a video about it later.
@@juanmanuelgomezmartinez3795 You are right, in that case they activate the Level 2 - the electric anti-icing devices:
Level 1: all the probes, always on.
Level 2: Anti icing on whenever icing condition exist.*
Level 3: When the amber icing detect light comes on. Then turn deicing equipment on.
Thank you for your professionalism on explaining the known facts so far. The way you approach the themes is extremely clear and factual. Your channel is a valuable asset for Aviation, thank you Captain!
Been following you since your Bangkok days. Watched a video of Mentour Pilot and there was you giving a talk to his patreon crew! On this accident. Great going, Captain!
Where facts are few, opinions are many.
Thanks for all as always! Amazing video
The wisest analysis I've ever seen. I'm sending this to everyone. Thanks Capt.
And this is why aviation is the safest transport! Thanks Magnar for your great work!
ATRs are the standard for regional routes where I live (NZ). Have always enjoyed flying on them and haven’t ever felt unsafe in one (and they regularly fly some pretty terrifying approaches in some extreme weather - I’ve even been in one where an engine had a brief flame out). Regardless of the outcomes of the final reports are, I don’t think I’d be any more concerned about being in one than any other type of aircraft type.
Thank you sir no one better than you to talk about ATR 👍🏼
Thank you so much for sharing this new update of what happened with the ATR 72 - 500
Magnar as a pilot is always above the clouds but also always so down to earth. Thank you for focusing on the facts. Sad accident but a really great video about it.
I was waiting for this video, thank you Magnar!
Could you please comment on the crash of the Cessna 208 just outside Bangkok today, it seems to be a very strange accident.
CENIPA released the preliminary report yesterday. If I understand it right, looks like icing procedures were not adequately followed.
Thanks Magnar, always great videos.
You seem very serious. Thank you for your comments on this tragic event. 🤝
Thanks Magnar
Great objective feedback Magnar, thanks for this.
Such good work, sir. Thank you, keep it up.
Aviation Herald listed an incident with this aircraft on Mar 11th 2024 with hydraulic problems and a tailstrike on landing. After repair, pax reports of bad airconditioning and other related effects.
Hello. Cabin hot is normal in ATR operation. ATR72 tail strike is normal too.
Can you talk about the preliminary report ? Thank you Captain.
I'm working on it. Be patient.
Excellent work, Mr. Magnar! I would like to know from any Brazilian ATR pilot if it is common in Brazil to use the 3rd level of deicing, inflatable boots. The weather event in Vinhedo was extreme and unusual. I live 11 km from the crash. There is a possibility that the autopilot guided the aircraft until it stopped working and the pilots may have had little time to react. Let's wait for the official report. We may have news within thirty days. Greetings from Campinas, Brazil, the city of Viracopos International Airport.
I saw other videos in which they show ADSB data. After they asked to start the descend, which is normal in that distance to airport, they started descending, but ATC told them to keep 17k for now, suddenly the pilot pulled up hard to climb to 17 k again and he stalled it by the PANIC PULL done. Then they didnt get it out and even kept the power on which produced a Flat Spin. I took Spin Training on Piper Tomahawks which are hard to get out of spins. That was a Panic Pull and then spinned and didnt push down enough and kept power on too. Many Pilot Errors.
Clear and concise explanations!
Although it is too early and misleading to speculate about icing as a contributor factor in this terrible accident, it is worthwhile comparing 2283 with Aero Caribbean 883, TransAsia 791, and Azul 5591 (the only non-fatal upset on this list), all of them caused by icing. It's very impressive how things can deteriorate pretty fast unless the crew acts very quickly. Thanks once more.
Sad event. Thank you for your expert analysis Captain. Very interesting.
1. The crash occurred during severe weather conditions, with possible icing being a factor, though not confirmed.
2. The aircraft was in a flat spin when it crashed, as confirmed by Brazil's Aeronautical Accidents Investigation and Prevention Center (CENIPA).
3. Both the Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder have been recovered, although the latter did not meet current regulatory requirements.
4. The investigation will take time, with a preliminary report expected 30 days after the accident, and a full investigation potentially lasting one to two years.
Hi Magnar. Thanks for the valuable information, for sticking to the facts, and for stressing the importance of the accident report, which states that we should all wait and see what happened.
I have a question: Does the FMS calculate the "Ice Bug" speed based on the altitude and weight of the aircraft?
Thank you very much.
The FMS calculates the "icing bug" speed based on aircraft weight alone. The altitude has no effect on indicated airspeed.
@@FlywithMagnar Thank You Magnar. 👍 I used to fly Saab2000 for Crossair in Switzerland and we were using İce speeds from the "ice booklet". Since we were rather fast and could fly up to FL310 (before RVSM) icing was not a big issue except for Takeoffs and Landings.
12:22 - During the filming of the movie "Top Gun" (1986) the aerobatic pilot Art Scholl died when his Pitts S-2 - hired as camera plane; crashed into the sea while executing a "flat spin" to record the horizon rotating during the maneuver to be used in the film.
What a gem Channel !
your maturity, patient and non attention selling.. calm personality, nature is so inspiring sir.
Thank you for this folllow-on update.
so sad that regulators IN ALL COUNTRIES themselves sometimes create exceptions.
Maybe it was really not much consequential in this accident.. and hopefully the other parameters from the FDR do adequately help..
..but still.. 18 months leeway.. for a crucial equipment like FDR.. is a bit too much (in my view).
Yes, option the initial chain of events turn out to be way different than the ones speculated
Hi Magnar. Great video. I would like to know what pilot and airshow you got the grab of the small plane doing a really excellent example of a knife-edge spin. It was really well done. Thanks for the awesome content you produce. I look forward to every video you post.
Superb explanation! thank you.
Nicely said!
In all productions on UA-cam, one I have yet to see is how the different parameters on FDRs relate to physical actions of the aircraft.
I have seen many where the graph is shown and a torrent of analyzing discussion ensues, but it’s still not clear to grasp what each line is showing.
Maybe I should take an aeronautics engineering course!
Oh..So even those one-engine certified manouver aircrafts are NOT trained/able to recover from a FLAT spin? "just"for a 'normal spin', then? Wow...thank u for the excellent explanations! Great video.
Thank you very much for this informative Update!👍 - We will indeed have to wait for what the Investigators are releasing. It´s not only that usually Crashs are "Swiss-Cheese-Events", not "Single-Issue-Events". Often the Investigation discovered contributing or even causing facts, too, that nobody could imagine before - the Crash of Yeti 691 is a good example for this.
Just curious, could an engine entering into Beta (aka Discing) uncommanded, while the other engine left at cruise/full power potentially cause the aircraft to spin? I'm thinking something similar to the Khabarovsk Airlines 463 crash, where one of the props on the L-410 went into beta inflight due to a mechanical failure.
Note it's very unlikely this happened with Voepass given there's a severe ice SIGMET in the area, but still an interesting thought exercise nonetheless.
As you said, Stall recovery for ATR72:
1) push
2) Flaps 15
3) add power???
4) Speed.
Why is it necessary to add power in a stall with a propeller aircraft?
The gyroscopic forces are enormous, as the P factor. Doesn't that create a yaw moment on the aircraft, which is exactly what we want to avoid?
Isn't power supposed to be applied AFTER the aircraft regains speed and attitude?
Pushing the yoke breaks the stall. Selecting flaps 15 reduces the stall speed. When this is done, it is safe to add power.
@Fly with Magnar, I enjoyed your explaination of the ATR's robust automated systems.
But have you considered or will you conside this ATR may have encountered atmospheric conditions beyond icing? In severe icing conditions aren't strong downdrafts & updrafts possible?
If this flight "hit" one, likely an updraft just after starting its decent wouldn't it increase in altitude as flight tracking shows. I did use the word "hit" purposely because entering an updraft or downdraft, as well as exiting one, could severel decrease airspeed. Under this condition the ATR might have started a "flat spin" right a way without pilot error or automated malfunction.
Excellent consideration, Weldon! I would take it a step further and ask myself how could you possibly recover from this situation if there is no effective airflow reaching the vertical stabilizers that could lower the nose due the t-tail design ...!?
Thank you so much captain
6:14 - There has already been a fatal accident and a serious incident caused by icing involving airplanes in Brazil before this one.
I can understand the author's reluctance to address some of the comments shown at the outset of the video. However I am going to play devil's advocate for a moment.
The comments point to a general loss of confidence in the safety of this aircraft and the competence of the flight crews. This public perception is quite understandable considering the repeat cases of fatal accidents involving icing or pilot errors.
So if we don't want to condemn ATR or the pilot community involved in operating this aircraft, we need to compare the ATR history to that of similar aircraft - perhaps the de Havilland Dash 8 or similar.
A detailed analysis such as those found on this channel describing the sequence of events that led to a specific crash is fine as a post-event follow up. However it doesn't really help the public make an informed decision as to whether or not to avoid flying on this aircraft.
It would be a real public service if one of these crash-analysis channels on UA-cam would look at the general category of turbo props over some meaningful time period - and try to identify a trend or lack of trend according to aircraft manufacturer or some other relevant criteria.
OK, now add in a violence updraft just after the ATR started its decent.
Would explain the suden increase in altitude. "Hitting" the updraft on entery and exit could causedrastic loss of speed. The ATR could then be out of aerodynamic flight.
From there a "flat spin" is very probable.
In this case where the aircraft was in a flat spin, spinning counterclockwise (viewed by the pilot), couldn't you use increased power on the left engine and decreased power on the right engine to stop the rotation?
Quite right to wait for the facts. I wish more aviation channels would do likewise. Even the so-called Air Safety Institute of AOPA are rushing out videos titled “early analysis”, which in truth are speculative and hypothetical, coming as they do before the investigators have done their work.
Good and brief review.
13:15 nice animation illustrating why the vertical stabiliser is stalled & the rudder is ineffective in a flat spin.
It's good to learn some basic aerodynamics I'd managed to not come across before.
I guess every aerobatic pilot & possibly multi engine pilot knows this.
Does the stick pusher activate at the same AoA with and without icing? Is it possible that the ATR will stall due to icing without the stick pusher activation?
Yes, it's possible. Not just with the ATR.
Thanks
Thank you!
Another possible scenario is the stalling of the horizontal stabilizer, perhaps due to ice accumulation, preventing efficient recovery. That peculiar sound of the engines could be that trying to counteract the direction of rotation, thrust was applied at full power to one of the engines and the other at idle to try to stop the rotation.
A tailplane stall may happen when you extend the flaps to maximum position when there is a considerable amount of ice on the leadihng edge of the horizontal stabilizer, and the speed is relatively high. When this happens, the aircraft will pitch violently nose down. Some aircraft were lost because of that in the 1950s and 1960s.
The first ATR model, the 42-300 was ecuipped with flaps 0-15-30-45 positions. Tests showed that the horizontal stabilizer could stall when it was contaminated with ice in flaps 45 position. The remedy was to put a guard on the flaps lever 45 position, and only allow use of flaps 45 for emergency landing in normal atmospheric conditions. Later ATR models have maximum 30 or 35 degrees flaps.
Therefore, I think we can rule out this scenario.
@@FlywithMagnar Thank you for your reply. I understand that was not a factor in this case.
Thanks for the video. Yet another question: If you get into a flat spin with a dual engine plane, rotating right, why doesn't it help setting the left engine in idle and apply full thrust on the right engine, counteracting the spin?
I would guess that since the wings are stalled, it doesn't matter what the engines are doing, without the appropriate airflow over the wings and control surfaces the plane is as uncontrollable as a falling rock.
Just a layman's question: In a twin engine plane, can't you use asymmetrical power to counter the spin? I mean brake the outer engine by throttle or prop angle?
Magnar knows how to make even people like me understand the basic forces in action in this incidence. Heja Sverige.
Something I have been wondering about regarding the de-icing boot - does it affect the shape of the airfoil?
Slightly.
My understanding is that the ATR can split control of the elevators with enough opposing force on the control column. If the stick pusher activates (captain side) but the FO pulls back, can this cause a split elevator? This could then apply a rotational force.
Can you stop the rotation in a spin in a multi-engine by carefully applying asymmetrical thrust opposite to the direction of the spin?
It's interesting that it seems that from the accident video as though the aircraft started spinning in the opposite direction closer to the ground. It's almost as though they managed to finally recover from the spin and then entered a secondary spin (maybe pulled up too quickly, quite understandable if the case, given the ground was fast approaching).
Uma pergunta, os tubos pitot se congelar , vao pasar a velocidade errada aos instrumentos? e isso pode ter confundido os pilotos a acharem que estavam mais rapido do que estava e no final entrar em stall? e se a velocidade é passada errada ao computador o sistema anti-stall ainda funciona??
One question, if the pitot tubes freeze, will they pass the wrong speed to the instruments? And could this have confused the pilots into thinking they were going faster than they were and in the end entering a stall? And if the wrong speed is passed to the computer, does the anti-stall system still work?
I believe the stall protection acts mainly on the angle of attack sensors, that are less susceptible though not immune to icing.
I also thought that the preceding gain in altitude pointed to a possible scenario similar to AF 447. It's interesting how the A-330 gave those pilots the liberty to stall the plane under "alternative law" despite the plane computers sensing the stall coming. So in that case the unreliable speed condition removed the "confidence" of the automation to save the plane in spite of the pilots. I don't know how the protective layers work in the ATR during unreliable speed, but I'm not personally ruling that out for now.
Can the inside the spin circle engine be reversed to counter spin?
*I understand this is theoretical and no time was left anyway
But: Can changing the center of gravity (by moving all passengers to the front) stop the FLAT descend?
That is a good question. I do not know the answer. Maybe. However, if the aircaft managed to exit the flat spin, it would still be in a normal spin. And transport aircraft are not designed to recover from spins.
I was thinking the same thing. If all the passengers could somehow get to the front on the plane quickly. That could help bring the nose down. Which could potentially recover the spin.
How are the effects of gravity on the passengers in a flat stall? Would they be weightless/pushed into the ceiling or is it so slow that they still have some forces pulling them downwards to the ground?
@@hummingbird.. The centrifugal forces pulling them to the sides would be extreme. I doubt anyone would be able to move at all. Trying to get everyone to the front would be impossible in the amount of time they had.
As a pilot, I'm inclined to think "there must be something I can do in that situation" but really, the only reliable thing is to avoid that situation at all costs...
Hello. But could be a problem to walk to the front because centrifuge forces.
Capt Magnar, what would the passengers onboard be feeling during this short trip to earth? Would they’ve been passed out from the g force’s or would they have been able to know the crash was going to be fatal? Sad regardless but even worse in my thinking if the passengers knew what was happening and going to happen in the minute or so it took to happen.
Why are there no reports of the pilots contacting ATC during the final moments of flight? Is it possible cabin pressure was lost and the pilots may have been rendered unconscious? Hard to fathom no communications or distress signals. If they were conscious I am sure they were doing all they knew to do. But once in a flat spin shouldn't they have told ATC what was happening so there would be less speculation?
most likely because of time. there are priorities what to do in emergency. FIRST FLY THE AIRPLANE as we see that was not checked so for second -navigating and third -communication was too early.
Is it true that autopilot est more Dangerous than manual in icing conditions? Thank you very much Sir.
It can mask ice buildup on the flight controls. When the autopilot is on, you don't know how much force it is using to maintain control. Then when its limits are exceeded it will turn off, the pilots will have a very difficult time controlling the airplane. In normal situations, ice should never form on the flight controls, only on the leading edges of the wings and stabilizer. But severe ice is much more dangerous than normal icing conditions.
This is true of every airplane. No airplane is designed to sustain flight in severe icing. The only option is to escape by descending.
Just a gut feeling….the actual reason may never be pin pointed.
BS
How many flights….. How many accidents….. risk worthy…. Earn money….. But this time COULD BE DIFFERENT because there is a scary video of the same airplane and the same accident. This will put a lot of pressure on investigators and all parties to do THE RIGHT THING
Well one of those statements rewritten as a question, might answer many people's concerns. "Does the ATR have an abnormally high accident rate when operating in icing conditions?" I truly am curious about that and would be interested in the answer. I recently flew from Helsinki to Tallinn on an ATR, in snow, and was quite concerned. Maybe it wasn't justified, but I would like the actual facts.
Excluding this accident, there have been six fatal accidents with ATR aircraft where ice has been a contributing factor. Two accidents happened because the aircraft was not de-iced before take-off. Three accidents happened because the crew let the aircraft fly at a speed below the icing bug (minimum allowed speed in icing conditions.) In all of those cases, the aircraft stalled, and the crew failed to apply the correct recovery procedure. The sixth accident was American Eagle Flight 4184. This accident stands out because of the circumstances around it. At that time, ATR's manuals were vague, so you can put some blame on the manufacturer. But after 1995, the procedures have been crystal clear. If the pilots had followed them, many lives would have been saved.
Would be interesting indeed. Not sure if there will be a real answer to such questions. In the end pilots are responsible not to fly in severe icing conditions, they don't want to die as well. All equipment helping pilots when it does happen are basically safety measures you shouldn't need if I'm correct. You can compare it with Nepal where they fly a certain brand of aircraft a lot and a lot of accidents happen. That's not because of the type of aircraft but because of really bad piloting and communications between pilots most of the time. From the video's I've seen. I don't fly often as I always have confidence in the pilots. But I wouldn't step in any aircraft in Nepal to do some nice scenic tour between the mountains in the Himalaya. That's not so much about the aircraft although maintenance might play a role in some accidents but mainly the pilots and their behaviour. Wouldn't worry flying them in Finland :)
@@FlywithMagnar In 2013 occur a serious incident with a ATR-72 212A in Northeast of Brasil in similar conditions, in this case the pilot regain control after fall ~5000 feet - despite errors make by him and by the co-pilot. If put more details about the YT censorship block the message.
We could determine the fatal accident rate for ATRs per hours flown. But we probably can't determine how many of those hours were in icing, or how that relates to other aircraft types.
I am aware of this incident.
Not shure the manufacturer authority has ever made any statement on the course of the investigation. Wondering what they'll have to say about it
excelent vídeo
My Swiss cheese theory still lines up with an icing induced stall spin.
would it be possible to get out of a flap spin by retract flap on one side, and fully extend on the other side in attempt to induce a roll? if control surfaces (ailerons, flaps, trim, etc) of the wings could be coordinated to increase the size of one wing’s total surface and reduced the size on the opposite, might that roll the aircraft to the point the rudder could get the nose pointed down and gain airspeed?
No. The flaps is not designed to extended aymmetrically.
Does anyone know whether Bob Hoover has ever performed a spin with those Aero Commander he test flew?
Voepass Preliminary report was released
Do those boost have temperature limitations?
No.
Dear sir i suggest new procedure to exit from flat spin... is to
- putting flaps at 15 or if possible 30 degrees.
- using engines in contrary of axe of spin one in feather. The opposite to pla in full / cla in max / pwr management in TO.
- acting on rudder opposite axe with trim .
- pitch tab down.
All this actions must done rapidly just in order to exit from spin. And must done in high altitude in irder to gain and recover the speed and therefore the lift.
Thank you for correct my approach if wrong.
I think that the videos with the plane spinning for so long is the source of intense speculation about the ATR 72. People feel that the plane has a problem because they can not escape that. I knew experienced aerobatic pilots that died due to flat spins, so I doubt that most commercial pilots can recover. They are trained to avoid entering a spin, and planes are designed with systems to prevent it too.
Until the preliminary report no one can rule a problem with that particular plane. But we can rule out that ATR 72 has a flaw because it can not escape a flat spin or can not fly for extended time in severe icing conditions.
In 2013 happens a serious incident with an ATR-772-212A in Northeast of Brazil similar to this one. In that occasion the pilot recover the control after fall 5000 feet.
I'cant post more details about - YT censorship blocks the post. 🤐
@@Sokol10 We can't say it's similar with no preliminary report. A spin is the result of a cause and the recovery is the result of pilot action or automated actions by the plane.
Some ATR72 flaws. FAT WINGS, fast ice formation, sensitive to vertical wind shear (turbulence), flat landing attitude that leads to easy tail strike, air conditioner issues…….
Very few transport category twin engine planes can recover from a spin, and certainly not a flat spin. As is mentioned at 12:45 in the video.
Flight data from flight radar 24 showed the aircraft's ground speed was fluctuating drastically on climb out without any change in altitude up to FL 170 with no communication to ATC and continued fluctuating throughout flight until it decreased sharply to 149mph to 99 mph to 49mph whilst falling. Can you address. I'm a pilot from Trinidad and Tobago
Is there any possible way to recover from flat spin?
Seems like impossible at all, even if counter spin rotating it'd able to stop spin, but the most problem part is to build speed up with full flaps then it can't make it in time from 10k feet per minute. The Elevator doesn't work in flat spin, unless if there is forward airflow from build speed up.
To escape from a flat spin in a high tail aircraft the aircraft needs to be rolled 90º so the wings are vertical. The rudder is used to direct the nose down and build airspeed and develop airflow over the elevators. The aircraft is gently levelled and pulled out of the dive as control authority is regained. This recovery action requires around 30,000 feet to carry out successfully, so the Brazil accident could not have been avoided.
I wonder if the pilots at some point opted to try and use asymmetric thrust to "break" or "elongate" the rotations 🤔 they almost seemed they might get nose down at one point.
this is so rare to happen that there is this spiraling type of stall. Did it happen before so we can draw conclusions what was the cause? Almost like plane speed dropped to zero and then entering this spiraling pattern. Engine failure? why the pilots didnt push the nose down? was altitude too low for this maneuver?
It was a spin, not a spiral. A spin is easy to get into if you stall a plane and you have yaw in one direction. There have been many accidents caused by unrecoverable spins.
The point about not pushing the nose down is addressed by how that works. They can't literally push the nose down, they can just push the stick forward. Of course, as a pilot you think that is pushing the nose down becuse that's usually what happens.
As Magnar has explained, the way that works depends on a smooth air flow over the elevators in the tail. They move down to create the extra tail lift to push the nose down. As the plane stalls and rotates in a flat spin, that simply does not work, becuse there is no front-to-back airflow over the tail. The pilots were likely pushing the stick forward, but that made no difference. Sadly, they had no way to push the nose down.
Takk Magnar!...
you pronounce temperature incorrectly
_It looks like you are the Official Speaker of CENIPA. _*_ONE to THREE YEARS_*_ to _*_BEGIN(?!)_*_ to uncover the reasons behind the accident, as you have affirmed, is a very long time, don’t you think Mr. Magnar? Really(!!) Mr. Magnar, _*_ONE year to *BEGIN_*_ to uncover the reasons behind the accident is in itself a very long time, but one to _*_THREE_*_ years, is extremely outrageous for the families of the victims._
That's a long time for an investigation. I Won't be getting in one of these anytime soon.
Prelim report in a few weeks, full investigation up to two years is the norm for these type of events.
In the USA the FAA has over 800 accidents as "Work in Progress" for a huge range of aircraft.
Since none of us know the cause of the crash its premature to blame it on the aircraft.
This will be one interesting Mayday /Air Crash Investigations episode. I'd really like to know what findings they are going to come up with on this accident. I'm going to have my popcorn and my beer ready. Probably have to wait a year or two. Rest in peace to all those who perished. Hope I never see something like this again. Hope air travel becomes safer from this. This shit was horrific after I saw that I got nightmares. I couldn't imagine being on that plane. I hope they figure out something.
The ATR is a good aircraft. Any pilots flying ANY turboprop need to remember that just because it may be 60 Degrees on the ground, once you get to cruise you can easily be at or well below 32 degrees.
These Pilots upon receiving the NOTAM of ice from 12,000-21,000ft should have delayed or canceled the flight or just flown below the weather.
I’d have planned that Flight (If accepting it) to cruise at 10,000ft, giving myself 2,000ft of padding.
You certainly don’t want to sit smack dab in the middle of severe Ice at 16,000/17,000ft. You also wouldn’t want to try and climb above it, because you’ll pick it up on the way up and then have to go through it again to get back down.
Sad deal.
lmfao okay, simulator pilot
You don't know what happened there, don't judge the pilots because they were VERY competent.
Wow. How old are you? Fifteen?
@@lenseofanomad Weak attempt at trying to hit my credibility. Try harder.
I’ve flown Turboprops for most of my commercial career, In every type of WX conditions imaginable. I hold type ratings in the following commercial aircraft :
-291HRS in the Saab 340-Delta Connection
-411HRS in the Beech 1900(Single Pilot)-Alpine Air
-434HRS in the EMB-120 -United Express
-816HRS in the Dash 8 Q400-United Express
-1,059HRS in the ATR-72-Empire/FedEx Feeder
-Current A320 Captain at a US Legacy Carrier.
This accident has everything to do with Pilots either not getting or ignoring the NOTAM of the of severe icing between FL12,000-FL21,000ft. The majority of that flight the airframe was likely overwhelmed by accumulating liquid cooled water droplets that froze to the aircraft immediately. This was not some light rime ice.
If you understood basic physics, aerodynamics, weight+balance, center of gravity, and the effects severe icing accumulation changes the flight characteristics of all of the above.
I imagine the Pitot tubes froze, AP suddenly disconnects due to unreliable airspeed, hands a now much heavier, out of trim, shifted center of gravity to the Pilots who due to inaccurate airspeed could be thinking they are stalling or even over speeding.
To get an ATR that was flying in severe ice, holding a constant airspeed, heading, and altitude until something happened that resulted in a flat spin. To get an ATR into a flat spin requires a VERY specific set of parameters.
The ground/airspeed falling off around the time they left 17,000ft, briefly held at 16,000ft and then everything falls off. Air/Groundspeed as low as 30-40kts while vertical speed that got as fast as -10,000FPM vertical descent.
I think the pilots were flying on AP, in Severe Icing conditions that overwhelmed the Pitots/Static ports, the AP suddenly disconnected, startling the Pilots who went from Autopilot to hand flying an airplane that is out of trim, shifted CG, hundreds of pounds of ice accumulation, changed shape of the airfoil, which requires a change in AOA, plus unreliable airspeed. A confusing, challenging and chaotic situation.
They should have flown under the NOTAM of icing conditions, which their cruise altitude was smack dab in the middle of.
They should have never put that aircraft in those conditions.
You fly below the Ice, but still keep an eye on the precipitation, keep an eye on the OAT, Dew-point, and keeping the aircraft far away from any possible icing conditions.
@@rotaero So was the crew of Air France 447 an Airbus A330 from Rio to Paris who’s Pitots froze, AP disconnected and the startled FO pulled the side stick in a nose up position all the way from 32,000ft to impact with the Ocean.
Airlines PNG. you guys here watching this?
Captain I am sure both pilot were lost no mergence call no action done look’s aircraft flying without pilot
I WONDER IS THIS TYPE OF AIRCRAFT CAPABLE OF FLYING WITH ONE ENGINE?
All transport category aircraft can fly with one engine inoperative from V1 (take-off decision speed) to landing.
@@FlywithMagnar THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE ANSWER
is setting reverse thrust/feather on one of the engine for stop rotation in flat spin would help in any way?