The Future of American Democracy
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- Опубліковано 11 лют 2022
- In this episode of the podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Anne Applebaum, David Frum, Barton Gellman, and George Packer about the ongoing threat to American democracy posed by Republican misinformation and disinformation regarding the 2020 Presidential Election and the attack on the Capitol on January 6th, 2021.
Anne Applebaum is a journalist, a prize-winning historian, a staff writer for The Atlantic, and a senior fellow at the SNF Agora Institute at Johns Hopkins University, where she co-leads a project on 21st century disinformation and co-teaches a course on democracy. Her books include Red Famine: Stalin’s War on Ukraine; Iron Curtain: The Crushing of Eastern Europe 1944-1956; and Gulag: A History, which won the 2004 Pulitzer Prize for non-fiction. Her most recent book is The New York Times bestseller, Twilight of Democracy, an essay on democracy and authoritarianism. She was a Washington Post columnist for fifteen years and a member of the editorial board; she has also been the deputy editor of The Spectator and a columnist for several British newspapers. Her writing has appeared in The New York Review of Books, The New Republic, The Wall Street Journal, Foreign Affairs, and Foreign Policy, among many other publications.
Website: anneapplebaum.com
Twitter: @anneapplebaum
David Frum is a senior editor at The Atlantic and the author of Trumpocalypse: Restoring American Democracy, his tenth book. Frum spent most of his career in conservative media and research institutions, including the Manhattan Institute and the American Enterprise Institute. He is a past chairman of Policy Exchange, the leading center-right think tank in the United Kingdom, and a former director of the Republican Jewish Coalition. In 2001-2002, he served as a speechwriter and special assistant to President George W. Bush. Frum holds a B.A. and M.A. in history from Yale and a law degree from Harvard.
Website: davidfrum.com
Twitter: @davidfrum
George Packer is a staff writer at The Atlantic, where he writes about American politics, culture, and foreign affairs. He is the author, most recently, of Last Best Hope: America in Crisis and Renewal. He is also the author of The Unwinding: An Inner History of the New America
(winner of the National Book Award), Our Man: Richard Holbrooke and the End of the American Century (winner of The Los Angeles Times Book Award and the Hitchens Prize), and seven other books.
Barton Gellman, a critically honored author and journalist, is a staff writer at The Atlantic and senior fellow at the Century Foundation in New York. He is the author, most recently, of Dark Mirror: Edward Snowden and the American Surveillance State and Angler: The Cheney Vice Presidency. His awards include The Pulitzer Prize, an Emmy for documentary filmmaking, and The Los Angeles Times Book Prize.
Website: bartongellman.com
Twitter: @bartongellman
Released: February 11, 2022
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I listened to the show and while I do think it covered a lot of really good points I also think you completely missed a massive part of what is endangering American democracy. You don't say a word about the institutionalized legal bribery of politicians on both sides of the aisle by special interests. This is making it increasingly inconsequential which party and candidate wins in any given election because as long as they're beholden to donors who bought them off then what the people want is becoming increasingly irrelevant. This is a huge problem, and I would argue far more so than Trump when you look at the big picture. I wish you would talk about this more and not just echo the mainstream left-wing interpretation of what our societal risks currently are, which incorrectly pins everything on Trump and his associates (who absolutely are horrible) and pretends that there aren't deep systemic issues affecting the Democrats as well. With either party in their current state the country is in terrible hands.
Your political bias is showing
This is the reason the US has the worst health care system in the developed world. Not something that directly affects this panel of socioeconomic elite. There is no "left-wing mainstream" in the US.
@@vvggg12 How so? Corruption through bought out politicians occurs regularly on both sides of the aisle. Do you disagree? Fyi, I'm an independent and don't affiliate strongly with either partly as a matter of course and principal.
". This is a huge problem, and I would argue more so than Trum when you look at the big picture."
but he is orange, evil and literally Hit*... and tried to overthrow the entire country by using the word "fight " in a sentance, as the patriots.. i mean evil america hating Na*, already were at the capito taking pictures with not a gun to be found
@@vvggg12 lol... he literally didnt even say anything, but that obviously the corrup nature fo the system (which is obvious, and 95% of washington dc, the core of the establishment corrupted hacks, voted against trum... maybe that should tell you something), is a bigger problem than trum.
he even thought trum was X degree of a problem, and you gauged him biased why?
These people. Can you imagine what they could dig up on Biden
Unfortunately a very one sided discussion. Whilst it's valid to highlight the problems with the Republicans; the Democrats got away fairly scott-free. The balance of contributors was poor and was a
kind of echo chamber.
Cry more Trumptard, only one party is going full fascist and trying to end our democracy. Hint: it's not the democrats.
I mean….
The Republican Party is absolutely insane and pose the greatest threat to our democracy. There is nothing equivalent to this threat on the left NOTHING
This panel really needed Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi.
Father Sam has declared them to be blasphemers
About the last two notable thinkers I hold in much regard. For someone who once preached rationalism and open-mindedness perhaps as effectively as anyone in modern times, Sam has shriveled into the weak-minded antithetical butt of his own joke.
Glenn Greenwald has turned into the ultimate grifter on Fox News. Why would he be a good guest?
and Omer Aziz
@@BDKoala Fox news, are you joking or something why would that invalid anything.
In late 2015, in the run up to the presidential election, a fundamentalist Christian/Tea Party relative looked at me and said " You know, the Constitution doesn't guarantee a Democracy." I was stunned to silence, my bad. What this reveals is that this anti-Democracy movement was well underway long before orange man rose to prominence. It has been an undercurrent in the
Christian Church for a long time, consider the separation of church and state, or their propensity to desire control of human behavior. The Tea Party was the next step and validation of their hearts desire. They are absolutely tuned to justify overlooking honesty and integrity in order to achieve their ends. Don't bother praying about it, it won't work.
im 30min, i dont think theyre concerned about democracy, i think they just hate trump
Keep watching.
@@MrSidney9 Nah its left fear mongering nonsense as these same people were most likely supportive of Authoritarian vaccine mandates and Covid Passports. Get BENT!!!
As a Canadian Liberal, I listen to this as almost completely one sided i.e., not an heterodox analysis… sadly…
Among traditionally Republican minded pundits, who have largely embraced the false narrative of election fraud's legitimacy even in the absence of significant evidence, these are heterodox views, which is why Applebaum and Frum are significant on the panel. These aren't partisan leftists, but life-long politically right voices sounding an alarm. Their politics are actually directly served by a Republican subversion of democracy, but are still choosing to object on principle. They agree with each other, yes, but not with the milieu of the last 2 decades of their personal lives and careers.
There is no ”other side”! Those issues they talked about are the corner stones of democracy.
@@eckroattheeckroat4246"These aren't partisan leftists, but life-long politically right voices sounding an alarm."
nobody on the right has called them conservatives for a decade. they lie about that to gain clout with politically unknowledgeable people like you and Sam/to get legitimacy for their true side of the establishment when people can point to "hey, even longtime respected republicans agree with us!"
"who have largely embraced the false narrative of election fraud's legitimacy even in the absence of significant evidence"
just keep repeating the line like a good little cultist...
as 100s of thousands of uncertifiable votes were found in "the safest electio of all time" in the only audit of only one state that has been allowed to have been done as of yet... and mail in voting ruled unconstitutional by the courts in PA and WC, as we all knew... its almost as if no id verification isnt secure and the opposit of your sides dogma of voter supression...
looks like you were the misinforma-ist cultists all along...
are you people never embarassed?
It is completely one sided and it's shocking so many years on from 2016 that Sam is still pedalling his deranged hatred of Trump. About time he took a long hard look at the other side.
@@oldtimer7635 The two sides are Democrat vs Republican and Trumpism. There might be one fundamental issue at hand but it's being perceived in two entirly different ways by the two "sides".
regardless of what you think about Trump, how can a society function, when that societies leader is removed from its main communication platform. This is essentially the inverse of the Orwellian dystopia we have all been dreading.
The fact that you think Twitter is our society's main communication platform, or that our leaders should be able to beam thoughts into our heads with it is itself Orwellian. Twitter is not an institution of the state - and if it was the "censorship" would be worse. The reason why it has control over its platform is because it's actually private owned. All of the legal opinion on this is established with regards to internet going on 30 years, and with regard to the free speech for at least 90 years: you can't tweet fire into a theater, or in trump's case, attempt to over this the government. Right wingers have the right to free speech all grossly confused. And Sam has it wrong too. He's a neurologist author responsible for popularizing this confusion, not a lawyer, and apparently someone without the Google skills or the 15 minutes to find out. Don't be like him, Google actual precedents on free speech and find out why Twitter has the legal power over its own platform. Trump isn't in jail for his speech. He effectively removed himself from the platform with his actions (which was long overdue). His Twitter ban is temporary too lol, so what are you crying about? You dont have the first clue about any of this.
@@subcitizen2012 if you dont think these platforms are societies main communication functionaries, then you've been living under a rock. If you don't believe the silencing of a duly elected president (arguably leader of western democracy) isn't a problem , then you're living under a constitutional failure. If you don't fear the power of a private corporation more powerful than an elected president....dystopia QED.
Lol I love when non-lawyers comment on the first amendment. Twitter is a private company that can do whatever they want with their platform, including not allowing traitors like Trump on to spew his lies and garbage. The first amendment does not apply.
Old grumpy better start making phone calls, faxing, emails.
I bet he’s get the best emails
This is just establishment talking points by academic partisans
Great way to contribute Phil.
I feel like a great answer to many of the questions at the end is really just to say 'end money in politics, and publicly fund elections'.
But how do you do that without getting rid of one representative districts? Public money to parties is easy public money to every yahoo who wants to run quite a different thing. I don't know, perhaps there is a good way.
If we publicly fund election won’t the people the work for the public just put their weight into the most ‘public worker supporter’?
Money in politics is a misdiagnosis of the problem. People so badly want to believe our system is broken. It isn't. It's very effective.
The problem is the voters and their historic polarization that's creating the paralysis. Which is unfortunately a much more difficult problem to solve.
@@gustafsjoblom6914 it's not that hard. Just look at the UK, Germany, France and all the other countries that haven't allowed their governments to become corrupted by monied interests
@@sh856531 I find it hilarious that you chose the 3 countries that used to rule the world and are now mere regional powers in pronounced decline to illustrate your point.
Listening to David Frum at 1:00:00 talks about 2016 Republican Primary and Jeb Bush is the frontrunner. After 12 yrs of GHW and GW, America was facing another Bush vs Clinton matchup?
Talk of "democracy" when the party's were locked around 2 "candidates". Little wonder Trump was seen as the game breaker from two establishment candidates. Russell Brand gives his take on David Frum.
ua-cam.com/video/DtUJpWYtGWM/v-deo.html
Thats what "democracy" means to these nutcases....it means our hegemony over politics.
Trump sold himself as the guy who cared about the blue collar workers and proved himself to be a fake populist. Once he became president he had no problem giving tax breaks to the billionaires and sticking it to the American worker. Just another case of failed trickle down economics
@@darlenegriffith6186 accurate description of Trump but the point remains. Both parties are completely broken. Trump could only rise in this scenario.
@@darlenegriffith6186 LOLOLOLOL you people all spew the same shit. I didn't vote for Trump but OMFG can you lefties lie through your teeth. I AM a professional tax preparer and the tax breaks did NOT help the wealthy, they helped families with children. Stop regurgitating CNN and MSLSD bull shit. The wealthy pay MORE taxes now because they can't deduct all their high state taxes and real estate taxes; less deductions = more tax. Geeez get a clue.
@@darlenegriffith6186 "Once he became president he had no problem giving tax breaks to the billionaires "
what the F does letting rich people keep more of the money they earn got to do with being a fake populist? is the definition of a populist one that inflicts pain in some form towards rich people?
"and sticking it to the American worker."
what??? when the f did tha thappen?
"Just another case of failed trickle down economics"
are you drunk? where? you cant just say things and have tehm become true
"Tru sold himself as the guy who cared about the blue collar workers and proved himself to be a fake populist. "
thats interesting, so how do you explain the first one in half a century to provide ANY wage growth whatsoever, and substantially so, with 6-8% wage growth at a 1.5-2% inflation rate?
Just because you chose to ignore opposition that isn't a weak strawman doesn't mean people can't legitimately oppose your echo chamber.
Blaming every problem on the other is a dangerous precedent and you were supposed to be better than that.
Maybe he should have invited a flat earther Into the conversation...😅
None of that happened though, so stop being irrelevant.
This, a thousand times. I have a lot of respect for Sam Harris and I would never vote for Trump or Trumpism but this is not even an undergrad level of analysis. The other side hates democracy and our values…guess what, trumpists think the same thing…neither is right (or 100% wrong). Both the red and blue kool aid tastes like crap. Sam should be asking the same deliberate and thoughtful questions he asks about organized religion because leftism and trumpism are exactly that.
Make sure to take a look in the mirror and take your own advice some time.
@@danielcurry1695 this isn't a both sides thing, you sound like a Trump supporter wilfully ignoring reality. You must be a boomer.
David Frum? Good god. What happened to you?
Frum 59:36 It wasn't me and my kind ,Yes David it was you and your kind that made Trump. Thankfully Harris called him out for the Filibuster nonsense.
2:13:33 Sam's last question was completely evaded by the panel: "Is there any concern here that democracy is not up to the challenge of 21st-century life in the end, and we need to find some other mechanism?", which reflects the limitation and group thinking of the participants. Yet it seemed normal to most people somehow. THAT is the answer to the title of the video.
The hive mind registuar has not posted anythin on this question; Therefore it does not exist. Beep Boop beep boop.
Is their anything better you guys can do than to project your "hive mind" onto other people?
Just accept it, sam isnt your average dummy who hyper focuses on the "woke left" and spreads covid conspiracies, go watch any other person for that. Just leave the community and go somewhere where its comfortable.
I would imagine that we've all drunk the Kool-Aid of freedom and can't imagine any other way. Freedom and relative affluence is absolutely the best thing that can happen to a thinking individual. Sorry.
So how would you have answered that question?
@@ZZ-sb8os Participatory Democracy Everyone gets to vote online for issues talked through just like this one.
I'm hearing complaints that Sam isn't inviting opposition into the "debate" : first, this wasn't a debate, if you think the fundamental question of the value of democracy is In question then you should put cotton in your ears, if you think the election was stolen, then look elsewhere for to gratify your lust. Secondly every discourse need not be a debate, true, debates can be helpful but that's not the only form of discourse nor should it be. Thirdly the only thing that matters in any form of discourse is that it is civil and grounded in the basic principles of rationality; this is valid discourse. Was it the only true shape of valid discourse? no, of course not, but that doesn't diminish it's value in any way.
What is helpful about an echo chamber?
"The Future of American Democracy"
- David Frum -
LMAOOOOO
I came here to say exactly this
The irony of the projection in this group is actually stunning.
Says the authoritarian
Specifics?
@@abstractdaddy1384 Every government is authoritarian, you're just too lacking in intelligence to realize it.
@@abstractdaddy1384 Yeah, because anybody who hesitates to board the fanatical anti-Trump train must be authoritarian, right?
@@mattturner5429
Well, it's either that or incredibly ignorant.
An echo chamber criticising another echo chamber.
Diminishing everything down to irrelevance as echo chambers puts yourself into one. The fact that you can't see yourself as part of that problem is why we're in this mess.
More debate and confrontation of ideas it's the only way to get out of that mess.
These people all have good track records and no connections to the sorts of political coalitions they advocate for here *looks at Frum and Applebaum*
Its like saying Eric Topol was an objective science guy. Totally not dependent on Fauci funding.
@@steve_m2473 Faucci funding? is that something similar to Soros funding Venezuela voting machine fraud?
I am sure Sam is interested to here more from you.
Nowhere at present is there such a measureless loathing of their country by educated people as in America.
-Eric Hoffer
Britain isn't far behind
Canada. China. Australia. New Zealand. To name a few.
Well yeah... when you're educated you can clearly see what a corrupt cesspool our government is and that the biggest minority party is trying to force a Christian Theocracy down our throat.
Anti-intellectualism vibes
Everything David Frum's feeble intellect touches turns to shit.
"If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”-David Frum. This was a pretty insightful statement he made during the Bush years. Gotta give him credit for noticing where his own party was going before Trump ever hit the stage.
Whahahaha Frum is a smart man no doubt but ever since Trump entered the stage his brain has just melted! Some Republicans are addicted to losing...
@@phillyflyguy3590 ""If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”"
wow, thats a unique storyline.
kind of how you could conceive that if a cough season that killed noone came across the country, killing as many people in 2020 as in any other normal fl year, they would institute a nationwide haul of mail in voting (that UNIVERSALLY was deemed unsafe, before it became illegal to claim someting like that), that was ruled unconstitutional just recently as we all knew?
"Gotta give him credit for noticing where his own party was going before Trum ever hit the stage."
thas fantastic. could you outline where they did such a thing as reject democracy?
Yeah, he probably wishes he hadn’t been proven right on that prediction.
@@wasdwasdedsf Uhm, if they are pro democracy so much, why don't they let peoples votes count?
Sam: "Let's have an open conversation about the issue. Now here's four people who agree with me in every regard."
David Frum! He has David Frum! What a joke.
@@theclimberupwards1169 Off topic, but his piece in the Atlantic on the Freedom Convoy parroted the lie, among others, about "confederate flags" appearing at the rally. I spent two hours online and found 8 images of 3 individuals with these flags... reported on more times than I cared to tally.
STRAIGHT propagandist.
Had that same thought.
@@AneTix101 You should totally come on my podcast then.
The issue is already agreed upon, it's the solution that they are discussing
Lotsa people out there justifying their own team’s conspiracy theories, talking about how the other team’s party has been hijacked by a fringe element, ignoring their own team leader’s character flaws while exaggerating the other guy’s… “trusted news” framing every event in the most non-contextual sensationalized and unobjective way possible… leaders acting not on principal, but party loyalty, self preservation and hubris; constantly speaking From both sides of their mouth, hypocritically changing the rules when it’s to their political advantage… too much has become about power for the sake of holding power by collectives blinded by bias, & an elite more than willing to use it to their own advantage.
Our best option is to move away from political parties and toward decentralization so that we can quit fighting over who controls the monster, & focus on more local elections because we have made actual policy matter more than empty promises from far away self aggrandizing liars.
Maybe we should devolve the power back to the states as written into the US Constitution. Although some regulatory authority needs to remain with the Federal government such as policing industry. It’s imperative that we liberate ourselves from regulatory capture though
Had you lived in a failed state country? Be careful what you are wishing for.
@@freedomlife3623 I am not sure what you mean. If you are saying that getting rid of party politics is a recipe for one party dictatorial rule then I agree.
The monster is not a function of government or partisan politics but rather is inside of us all. You can’t get rid of the monster without getting rid of humankind which is tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Getting freedom & democracy correct is a never ending struggle that those willing & capable need to always be engaged in at some level.
@@freedomlife3623 I don’t think it would have to go down like that unless the majority of the population simply couldn’t be convinced of the efficiency and advantage of gradually returning more decision making and taxation to states where are the people have more control & politicians are more accountable. Some popular policies could remain such as Social Security and Medicare…Even though they moved Social Security into The general fund, I don’t think most people have a problem contributing to a pool that they can see coming out of their paycheck which is strictly allotted for their own retirement and healthcare… (policy they actually see a return on).
With the amount of taxes the federal government collects, do you really feel represented because we were distracted fighting over how to spend gobs of money from a public treasury? Maybe you’ll have a better chance at the state level.
Or, maybe you can participate in reality and allow observable, verifiable, repeatable facts influence your decisions instead of opinion, emotion, and biased subjective, tribal values.
We must save American democracy. We cannot let the value of our democracy be replaced by autocracy, lie, violence, and destruction.
I agree with you but there are so many Americans who aren't educated enough, or don't CARE enough to do the work that being a responsible citizen entails, we're in trouble.
Yeah. Tell that to the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Palestine, and all the countries where the CIA have installed puppets
@@TheRealSlobo
No, telling you to mind your own business' and stop trying to force your bronze age beliefs on the rest of us.
You types hyper ventilating about the 300 kids in this entire country being treated for what ever this trans issue is that has you SO worked up, you are being manipulated by people who know they can get you to turn on your own countrymen because you can't regulate your emotions.
No one is forcing you to do anything about biology, but you right wing freaks will stop at nothing to force the rest of us to believe in your fairytales, even kill.
I feel it is already too late, the internet and social media have given our enemies access to the ignorant and overly emotional among us they have weaponized our idiots against us.
Democracy has failed miserably. Populism is better at this point.
Also you can always move to Russia, China or better North Korea, we don’t want dictator here.
@@freedomlife3623 No way, I'm not into communism or dictatorships. Populists in the West are still voted for by the people due to anti-elitist sentiments that grow overtime.
man I love you sam but I honestly feel your hatred towards trump and the republicans has led to you not seeing that the entire political system seems nefarious as a whole, it’s not just the republicans doing poorly it’s most certainly the democrats too, we have to get away from this two party system it is terrible.
Canada has 5 parties and it's just as bad. The illusion of choice. You get garbage regardless.
@@SuperGirl-tf2wn well we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t then I guess lol do you feel there are any countries out there properly running their governments?
The democrats suck, but the Republicans are far worse. Neither is what we need but this whole "both are equally bad" narrative is untrue.
They covered that.
Imo it all revolves around the truth. For example look at support for the Iraq war. You have representatives(reps) who were for it denying that now , you have reps who supported it lying or stretching their reasons beyond the scope, and you have reps who didn't support it while claiming to care about humanity and ignoring the facts of suffering in Iraq pre-war and many other countries worldwide.
Whether or not you supported it, it should be harrowing to know you can't trust your own representation enough to know what they did or believed without heavy intellectual labor.
You would think with such an important decision like going to war, we would all know the facts behind our government. We don't. And when they make horrendous mistakes you would think we recognize that truth receive an apology and either forgive or remove the rep as a democracy, we don't. We live in ignorance with lies.
If I want to know how many hits, errors, homers, strike outs, doubles, RBI's, stolen bases, for say Derek Jeter I can find that in a short time of searching. Insane detail on something so inconsequential, yet we have so very little data on the things that impact the nation and sometimes the world.
WE”RE BEYOND FUCKED
LOL yup LOL.
"How to hear view they don't like. How to find some common ground with people who hold those views. If not, agree to live with those people in this country." That right there. 100%
Sadly, I just don't see the these people as being capable of this.
The American left has become completely intolerant.
What democracy?
I've been a huge Sam fan since his first book, but lately he seems to have increasingly lost sight of the ball. Every one of these guests write for the lunatic magazine The Atlantic.
We live in difficult times, maybe you are the one lost. Have you considered this option?
@@vinix333 confirmation bias.... look it up
He's not playing the ball, he's playing the player, hence he's lost touch with reality itself
If by "lately" you mean the last 15 years. Sam rode the coat tails of giants to his success and has been undermining all of that ever since. He still has some polished gems to offer, but most of career has been a mountain of shit, among other things, took the movement he helped start and stabbed it in the back.
As far as I have heard, Democrats introduced new voting laws. Also, the DNC decided to not allow Bernie Sanders as presidential candidate as well as going against candidates like Andrew Yang or Tulsi Gabbard.
I suspect that that the commentators here don't see that side. I see the exact same problems listed here in the Democratic party.
Around 1:40 when talking about civic education, to me the central issue is mentioned: there are differences between people and that is exactly how society is supposed to be - pluralistic. Listening to the points here, they are discussed in basically the same manner by other Republicans. To me, there is one problem: demonization of the other side when there is nothing, literally nothing, nefarious going on. Corrupt politicians, media, institutions along with evolvement of dictatorships like China, Russia and Saudi Arabia, are the focus of ire and critique on both sides for the base. (Regarding dictatorships and openly anti-democratic ideologies, some are courted more overtly by Democrats, some by the Republicans - horrible and unacceptable but somehow the finger is pointed at the other side, not at the general problem)
I am also under the impression, that online discourse seems to drive the "divide". But it is mainly because it is reflected and amplified via marketing and finds its way into "main stream" media and politics. Utterly silly and manipulable metrics like engagement drive marketing. Social media is not journalism. And journalism should not ever strive to become social media. (that does not mean you can't be a journalist using social media)
I find it ironic that around 1:36 the suggestion seems to be to do exactly what Trump is accused of. Use emotional language, imply the other side is stealing elections, is anti-democratic.
_As far as I have heard,_
Exactly, you HEARD that the Dems introduced new voting laws. Did you check to see if this is true? What did those laws (presumably) do? How did this affect the election? If you actually take the time to check you'll find that a whole lot has been fabricated on the republican side of this.
_Also, the DNC decided to not allow Bernie Sanders as presidential candidate_
This is not even true, clearly Sanders ran for president. The DNC simply did not support Bernie as candidate and put their support behind Biden.
As said in the podcast, the floor has been flooded with shit, so you believe there might have been "some" issue. You don't really know which issue, just that a bunch of stuff smells fishy. But you didn't put in the work to actually check because there are so many claims that there is no way you could have the time to check everything.
Good points
@@Ancor3 have you looked it up? I am talking about the same exact points being mentioned on both sides. The Republicans saying the Democrats changed laws (which I assume is true) and the Democrats saying the Republicans did change voter laws (I also assume that is true)
@@elCoronelCC Yes, I have looked it up. Off the top off my head, some blue states made it easier for mail-in voters. The procedure by which people voted didn't change, but people were encouraged to vote by mail by making it easier. For instance, people automatically received a mail-in ballot in California. To republicans, anything that has to do with mail-in voting is automatically a sign of fraud. So this is what republicans point to when they say that the election was stolen, but a little research shows how empty this claim is.
Republicans passed/amended a few laws that made it somewhat harder to vote by , for instance, limiting early voting and reducing voting locations. Nothing very major yet, but they are chipping away at voting rights in the eyes of organizations that look to protect voting rights.
This is not an issue where republicans are making reasonable points. They are spreading a conspiracy theory that is easily exposed if you are willing to do a quick google search. What I'm asking of you is that you actually do that google search instead of sitting on the fence on important matters.
@@Ancor3 Here in Brazil we vote electronically, there are no papers involved in the process. Mail-In voting sounds VERY SHADY.
"...people should remember that, ...one of the reasons why...
*"The Future of [American]" democracy"* will *succeed or fail* is to do with how *engaged* citizens are in it!"
-Anne Applebaum (emphasis added)
TDS Avengers assemble
Anybody can still support the big whinny loser baby is truly deplorable.
“…the politicians lie…” is he seriously challenging that premise? Republican or Democrat, right or left, I would argue lying is part of the job description. It’s only free speech, a good-faith media, the right of protest and secondarily the right to vote that can keep the leaders in check.
"four Atlantic writers". Good night.
doesn't matter what you call it, when you change the rules last minute and do so against state laws. Then yes the election wasn't on the level.
Who resolves the disputes then, judiciary? Not something I'm prepared to debate but weren't there a massive number of court filings, legal proceedings, and even Supreme Court hearing? Before AND after the election. Were those actions all some kind of facade? I don't watch cable news so I legit haven't heard a good response to that yet. I'm ready to have my mind blown.
@@brettjohnson6374 yes the court filings were all dismissed based on procedure not merit.
for example. one of the court files got dismissed because the judge said "it's too late, you should have brought the suit early before the vote."
How do the Weather Underground get a historical pass from both sides?
Ham Sarris
Sorry, I just find this amusing
Sam, while I agree with easily 80% of what was said this was a therapy session held in an echo chamber. I understand having authors from the Atlantic but couldn’t you find someone, anyone to counter? Where was the introspection from left? As someone trying to be heterodox without always being so, I would have benefited from a more balanced discussion.
What is the left-leaning counter argument to this? Who would you have picked and what would they have added?
@@ZZ-sb8os This was a liberal/left talkfest which lacked a conservative angle.
anyone who opposes these leftists is ruled out as a dangerous trumpist who wants destroy democracy. these people are mentally crippled by TDS. they like it in the echo chamber.
@@ZZ-sb8os I belive he was looking for a right leaning perspective to prompt "introspection from the left".
Sam's tds still running strong in 2022.
What a moronic comment. You mean the guy that's now indicted and charged with 91 crimes? How hilariously sad did this comment age.
January 6th? Yawn. Let me take a guess between 0 and 0 as to how many minutes these self-appointed guardians of democracy spend discussing the proven presence of FBI agents inciting violence among the crowd.
For someone who used to regard Sam as literally my #1 go-to podcaster, this King Theoden shadow is so depressing. For god's sake get out of your smug echo chamber and rediscover some appetite for proper inquiry.
Why on world would anyone spend time discussing that? They are discussing about people who believes this shit.
_the proven presence of FBI agents inciting violence among the crowd._
Prove it
@@Ancor3 Prove that Trump colluded with Russia to undermine the 2016 election in his favor.
@@mattturner5429 When did I say that Trump colluded with Russia? Oh yeah, I didn't.
Thanks for letting me know that you can't support the claim that FBI agents were inciting violence though
< reported for misinformation >
Like so many of these forums along this theme, the analysis of our current condition is insightful and well-expressed. However, the proposed remedies, such as Anne Applebaum's recommendation for more civics-based entertainment on streaming services all seem are setting hopes way ahead of reason. If we cannot even agree on what constitutes civics in a classroom, what is going to compel anyone to watch anything these days that does not automatically reinforce people's own preconceptions no matter how ill informed they are? The genie of mass disinformation is out the bottle and will never be contained again. Regrettably, this amounts to describing the chemical properties of water to a drowning man.
So just give up then? Let the evil fascists win? Or what shall we do instead?
I would have said 30 years ago that truth would be enough to make a case that democracy need be saved for not just the people of the U.S. but also, the world. Not so much now though, as the truth seems to be whatever the rich, and powerful say it is. A sort of a dystopian 1984 where people that tried to over throw an election, is just some peaceful tourists looking over some old buildings. That no one in their right mind wants a living wage, and we in fact need to cut the taxes completely for billionaires because they love us so much. Yea, big brother who just wants us to love one another...Better.
@@michaelnelson9328 The guillotines look mighty hungry to me...
Yep, 100%
@@ZZ-sb8os No, never give up. But do not fantasize about tactics that will never work.
I've listened to hours and hours of David Frum and I can't remember ever hearing a single thing he said that was honest.
If you believe in Trump truth then by definition everything that other people are saying will sound like lies.
It’s worse than that, because buying into “Trump truth” means being able to believe two contradictory viewpoints simultaneously, switching each of them on and off whenever it becomes convenient.
@@Ixnatifual and yet here we are. The news lied. The government lied, the fbi lied. It’s all been proven.
@@sinisa5567 there’s nothing called trump truth. There’s just the truth.
@@dougd1573 On what court was that proven ? lol .
It’s all fun and games playing the ultimate moral arbiter until it comes time to pay the gardener and the nanny. Then these 4 get really ambiguous really fast.
The same reason they're so welcoming of illegal immigration: keeps those gardeners and nannies nice and cheap...
@@twntwrs "They do jobs no AMERICAN wants to do, you want to pay $5 for a tomato??" is so racist to say, that they degrade themselves for our cheap produce, but people say this stuff thinking they just shit down my border control plead.
@ARIK KATZENBERG 6:29 Liked Sam playing his anti-S Trump card.
The ex-president hates those J-ppl SO much, gave away his oldest daughter, Ivanka, to one.
And she converted.
And she birthed some new J-ppl.
Bigotry, lemme tellya.
Why is no one pointing out the real way out of polarization? (empower third parties) The two-party-system itself is at fault here, and it sounds like the "experts" can't even imagine alternatives.
Boy, did Frum get it right when he said we might be facing a war on the European continent. Just two weeks later....
There should be no risk of losing livelihood for speaking about held-beliefs. Intellectual freedom is the single most important aspect of the Enlightenment, the West, and the U.S. Constitution. The fact that someone is being silenced by a corporation or employer makes it no less tyrannical than if censorship is done by the state.
It actually does, the threat of violence is essential to tyranny and your employer poses no threat of violence. Additionally, would you apply this to Colin Kaepernick or other professional athletes who kneel for the anthem?
@@TheMantisShrimp Yes, I'd apply my standard to Kaepernick. I personally have no issue with Kaepernick kneeling during the anthem. He himself stated that he chose to kneel because he viewed it as the most respectful way of protesting. And frankly, even if it was deliberately provocative, I don't care. People shouldn't be fired for expressing their beliefs. As long as their positions in no way disqualify them from their abilities to perform their jobs, or isn't being done during their work activities, there's no reason that an employer should fire them.
(I suppose one can argue that his protest was firable because he was in uniform, or "on company time" and expressing his views during a game which cost the NFL money due to the public controversy. This MIGHT make it more of a gray area, but even if I were to grant this, the firing was still problematic and shameful.)
My main position is that all speech, except for forms of speech that indicate an inability to perform their work-related duties, are civil, Constitutional, and human rights. And being able to communicate freely and express controversial views is imperative in a free society. Therefore, in the same way that equal opportunity rights prevent employers from firing people for religious persuasions or gender identity, corporations shouldn't fire people for views held.
I'm a Libertarian (left-leaning lib, but lib nonetheless), and I recognize authoritarianism and power itself as a potential threat to the individual wherever it manifests itself. What the Libertarian-Right understands well, is that the state has a vast potential for human rights violations being that it has a monopoly on violence. This is why I generally oppose too much government regulations and ability to do violence, including restrict gun possession as as right. What the Libertarian-Right often ignores, is that corporations can become tyrannical by amassing too much power, even if the power is only economic. Especially as time goes on, mergers, consolidation, trusts, monopolization, and out-perforoming of big businesses over small businesses can lead corporate giants to amass power in a way that prevents markets from being free. (Whether government is the cause or not,) We are moving from market-capitalism to neo-feudalism, making CEOs a form of corporate overlords capable of policing speech in ways that the State no longer can.
I reject your point on tyranny. Tyranny need not have a gun to be abusive, unethical, exploitative, or destructive. Tyranny can have the classical, Socratic, form where any one individual who is foolish, impulsive, unenlightened, greedy, or power-hungry can terrorize a society. Power gives one a means to he tyrannical. And the power or leverage to starve someone, is the power to destroy them - especially if you are a corporate giant. If Spotify did oust Rogan, it would create a "race to the bottom" and establish the social precedent of authoritarianism in a manner that doesn't come from the State. It would then be commonplace for employers to fire people whenever they want. Even though Rogan would survive (because he's big enough), younger or less powerful people would be vulnerable to retaliation from petty authoritarian bosses who stalk their employees. This is why I support unionization and labor rights for big, publicly traded corporations - it keeps the government out of the market, avoids one-size-fits-all solutions, and gives workers the leverage to negotiate with their bosses in a way that's fair for everyone so that there's less intervention from the state. We can then move away from minimum wages and naturally promote better pay this way.
Aside from that, on the internet, as the public square digitizes, so does speech. Therefore, Constitutional protections must also digitize in a way that was unprecedented. When a platform because universal enough, it becomes a public utility, especially if there is a universal expectation that everyone is expected to be on a social media platform. By viewing communications as public utilities/goods, the services can't be denied to unsavory characters because they become societal necessities - like transportation, energy, banking, etc. This EXPANDS freedoms and rights to everyone, while not taking anything away from anyone - and businesses can still keep their money without being pressured by the public to censor anyone at the risk of boycotts. Win-win-win.
Say it with me, "The 1st Amendment does not apply to private entities, only government encroachment." Your may now continue crying about things you don't understand.
Keep being you, Sam 💭👏
This blew my mind. I was afraid he start being someone else.
Thank you for all you do Sam!
This is the most depressing thing I've heard in recent times. Important. But sooooo depressing.
"Orange man bad! Bret Weinstein bad! I am the Chosen Rational One. I meditate also, so FU"
not much charity on your part, but Accurate.
I truly marvel at the depth of Sam's knowledge and his ability to talk at length on so many difficult and diverse topics, but I am disappointed in the lack of intellectual honesty that is on display in this podcast. This was nothing more than a zoom echo chamber that pretends to rehash the last 5 or 6 years from an independent judicial type high ground, when in reality you can hear the bias and utter contempt for Trump (who for the record is a very flawed human being) which is the same hatred that made the mainstream media lap up and run with things like the Steele Dossier and start the whole cycle of mistrust to begin with. Having egotistical self serving politicians who hunger for more power and do anything to hold onto it manifests itself in many different ways and it didn't start or end with Trump. If you want to ultimately defeat this man so badly maybe you should start by stopping the focus on him.
The entire episode is about Trump's loss, his inability to accept that, his efforts to thwart that, and ongoing efforts by Republicans to rig elections so that Trump or someone even worse than him can get elected. Tell us, how would you speak about that without speaking of Trump?
To stop focusing on Trump would be such a relief -- but we can't. His base is sufficiently indoctrinated, loyal and dangerous that we must stay aware of his machinations at all cost. If we don't know what he's up to, we won't know where he's leading them.
@@ZZ-sb8os The episode I thought was about the future of American Democracy. If you think everything worth talking about on that topic stops and ends with Donald Trump then so be it.
@@anthonyderosa3265 I'm disappointed in Sam's newfound wokeness too. He used to welcome debate and hard conversations, but now every episode is a circle jerk. I miss the old Sam that spoke to controversial people that no one else would.
I get that he doesn't want to platform people he disagrees with on his podcast, but aren't his debating skills why so many people like him? I hate seeing him wall himself off like that
@@irowebot wokeness: "the 2020 election was not stolen"
5:20 lol, it’s a waste of time to hear a contrarian pov. And it isn’t isolated
Sam has had people who disagree with him suggested by his audience (like Darren Beattie) but he won’t do it.
No blasphemy shall be uttered here. Father Sam has decried it!
The problem is that the contrarian views are not offered in good faith. The Navarro document now stands as written proof that the Trump efforts to overturn the election were not in good faith, including claims that no reasonable person should take as fact (Sydney Powell), and claims that had no supporting evidence when they were made and have exhaustively been proven false since (dead voters, out of state voters). Bringing another person into the discussion to produce new bad faith arguments is not helpful.
When REPUBLICANS judges threw away cases for lack of evidence due to election fraud, and REPUBLICANS governors dismiss Trump argument and certified Biden was the winner, and this week Trump's REPUBLICAN vicepresident confirmed Trump was wrong, do you really need Darren Beattie? No, thanks, I don't need Sam or Darren, or anyone to tell me Trump is corrupt to the core and that he truly lost. The true issue here is the electoral college, what about one person, one vote like all western countries do as true democracies? Well, Bush and Trump never would've been president. True is republican policies are not popular with Americans. Sorry, but the proof is on the popular vote.
Check in every now and then to see it Harris has apologised to Brett.
Nope, not yet. Still too busy smelling his own farts.
why would he lol. Brett is still wrong and has always been wrong
Mr. Harris thanks for such truth. What I hate about our political leaders is that I believe they should be organizing their constituents to March say on the NRA or Washington instead they make speeches and get needed donations for their campaigns.
Big big marches have the power to change every leader who wants to get guns off the streets must organize millions of citizens to March for stopping the gun lobby,the oil lobby the nutty extreme republican right.
I need to subscribe but my hours at work were cut.
John Payne, Boston
I listened but I don't understand how such seemingly smart people can be so wrong
about a time and place they actually lived through and in.
I couldn’t agree more and you’re the first comment I came across saying that too.
We’re all still waiting for proof the election was stolen. Getting close to 2 years now
What are you referring to? Your comment doesn't have any information in it
Sam pretends there’s a binary between being a Trump cultist and thinking Trump is the biggest threat.. and that’s why his panel is so bad.
100%
To let someone on who accepts the lies about January 6th and Trumps intentions would have meant that the entire two hours would have been an argument about that, and nothing would have moved forward.
@@ZZ-sb8os But who is to say that anything of any greater value came from this? All i heard was splashin about from baffoons drowning in there pool of fear.
@@ZZ-sb8os lol u clearly can’t read. U and Sam have this binary mindset. Lots of ppl think democrats are a bigger threat to democracy and don’t accept Trump’s claims about the election
There is a binary distinction between what is true and what is false.
Either Trump lied or he didn't.
It isn't a question; Trump lied. There is no "gray area."
Constitutional Republic
lol!
No, unfortunately the USA is now a democracy
@@DUDEBroHey in that case I vote for the death of Socrates. I mean hey we voted for it so it's good.. right?
I'm a huge Sam Harris devotee, but if ever there was a podcast of his that was an echo chamber it's this one. Every single one of these panelists is Jewish, successful, highly educated, urban and live in great privilege. There is no way any of these people can relate to or truly understand the problems in the lives of people who are causing the problems they discuss and so forgive me if I don't listen. I'm not into intellectual masturbation and I actually laughed when he used the term "Republican echo chamber."
I take your point except for race. No sure why being Jewish matters?
I think Packer isn't Jewish (unless you know better) but the rest are. Unsurprising, Sam's guest lineup generally is heavily Jewish. But yes your point stands, it's an echo chamber. I don't know why so many people have this preconceived notion that this podcast is about talking to a range of opinions. This podcast has long been about simply espousing what Sam wants to talk about and what he thinks people should believe. He is a massively pro-gov, pro-elites coastal intellectual globalist and has never had an interest in diversity of viewpoint.
@@toby9999 Maybe he meant more as a religion. Replace 'Je***h' with Catholic ... it kind of makes sense to indicate that it adds to echo-chamber-ness.
Or maybe he's just pointing out that they are all privileged with access to the J*w space laser ... dunno ...
@@toby9999 Cultural similarity.
@@NotQuiteFirst Packer's father is Jewish so like Sam, he has one Jewish parent and some connection with Judaism which may be culturally relevant.
Great panel. Enjoyed it!
A good hoot, lol. I was particularly amused by the one panel member who thought you "aren't allowed to say that cocaine cures headaches." It was also amusing to find that Sam is in full favor of censorship -- of "cult leaders." Very hoot-worthy.
Yup, cult members don't ever like when their leader is threatened, they start to defend him with wild nonsense like "Sam is in full favor of censorship"
@@ZZ-sb8os Sam was VERY clear about his COMPLETE lack of ambivalence toward the idea of de-platforming Trump in every possible venue. Did you listen to the video?
Last question was weird given since it isn't really about "outgrowing" democracy.
* The _"technology"_ of government can always stand to be improved. This includes both variation (should more states adopt ranked voting? Should electoral college be reformed or replaced?) and completely new inventions (new forms of government; democracy is just a better system than monarchy, but perhaps there's an outright better system than democracy).
* The _corruption_ of government similarly should be addressed. This would include subversion of existing rules (this video described several, like gerrymandering), outside influence (the govt ignoring public opinion to pass telecom-favoring laws due to the giant lobbying efforts of those companies) and personal greed (Trump profiting from his position).
I'm certainly no expert on politics, but to me these 2 main issues (and 5 sub-issues) seem like some of the bigger problems to tackle. And obviously my lack of expertise shows in that I'm barely able to identify the problems (much of which is probably just me parroting some major talking points made in this video), and have offered no solutions.
I see America as an Oligarchy Democracy turning somewhat toward Fascism
maybe you'll have Dinesh D'Souza on next time 🧐
Is this a joke?
@@NoActuallyGo-KCUF-Yourself of course, you can't have an echo chamber if there is opposition.
😅
Thank you, Sam, for sharing this awesome conversation.
LOL, I'm sorry - this is not at all directed at you because obviously it's not at all your fault for listening to this asshole, but just keep that in mind for the screed of consciousness I'm about to write (and have written to Sam in some form _multiple_ times, he clearly doesn't give a shit about making a good faith effort in thinking about politics and history).
What fucking democracy? It's an oligarchy akin to the optimates of the late Roman empire, right down to the suppression of the populares movement led by the Gracchi bros and later Caesar, all of course murdered by senate (of which our own senate is an explicit homage uncoincidentally, not even democratically accountable initially as per the constitution, entirely nominated by state legislatures originally, but I clearly digress already lol) for the "authoritarian" threat they supposedly posed (to the oligarchy is the unsaid part) for crossing the ACTUAL rubicon of debt cancellation and land redistribution to the public. History repeats itself indeed (first as tragedy, then as farce). Not talking about Trump dipshits, but I am talking about Bernie Sanders and any _actual_ leftist movement to be clear.
The empire feeds off the republic, bipartisan capture by corporate/financial capital. No coincidence either of course the blackhole "defense" budget passes with ease (with an ADDITIONAL 20 billion than asked for) to implicitly/explicitly enforce this now global empire with its 1,000+ military bases (specifically enforcing the international financial system of Bretton-Woods we leveraged post-WWII by being the only industrialized nation-state not completely bombed to the ground, with the Nixon shock in '71 kicking the ladder out from under us by removing the ability to challenge our currency hegemony by accumulating gold reserves; for more context, Bretton-Woods also established the US dollar as the world reserve currency, how convenient, also created our tentacles of economic imperialism the IMF/World Bank), meanwhile a modest domestic spending bill gets gutted and ultimately doesn't even pass. We are the "consumer of last resort" at the end of the supply chain to absorb inevitable overproduction through cheap consumption or of course, as it relates to Sam Harris and his gang of neocon assholes, through war (military Keynesianism, the only button we can push at this point clearly).
The only success for capital is inherently, descriptively (ie not normatively), defeat for the working class, thus is the class antagonism inherent within capitalism, Taft-Hartley and the red scare(s) killing the heart and soul of labor power established from FDR and the New Deal that once gave at least marginal benefit to the working class.
Point is, what a fucking joke, a bunch of neocon military industrial/CIA dipshits discussing how to keep their bourgeois dictatorship, what a fucking surprise.
I can't believe I used to listen to this absolute asshole and/or dipshit.
Also, it bears pointing out that this is US bourgeois dictatorship _working as intended._
Contrary to ubiquitous mythology, the federalist/antifederalist "factions" create the brokerage that is the US constitution to specifically protect mutual interests through centralized defense against Shay's/Whiskey rebellion, but further to also protect against any future popular mandate (aka democracy) through a rube-goldberg structure of baffles that dissipates accountability or any clear sense of where political power actually lies (see: Federalist papers, Federalist 10 by Madison for instance says this pretty explicitly). These people wrote this stuff so far up their own asses, they knew at some level that their factional split (Hamiltonian federalists v. Jeffersonian antifederalists) would be a problem but assumed their personal "virtue", a 'noblesse oblige' self-evident by their property ownership and dominion over black, poor, and indigenous people, would transcend it. Turns out that isn't a thing. Oops.
This of course leads to the civil war, but is the aesthetic distinction between the two load-bearing party brands of bourgeois dictatorship, the Dems representing a more international financial capital (federalists) and the Reps representing a more land/extractive/national capital (antifederalists).
It may be a great conversation but it’s terrifying my heart rate shot up and I’m wondering if I should build a bomb shelter
Sam has made it a real habit of having no interest in hearing arguments about the things he has decided are true, despite having no way to be certain about any of them. But he is "certain enough" because they map to "reality" as Sam defines it...echo chambers, presuppositions and all.
There seems to be a real focus on Trump and his shenanigans but I did not hear much about the shenanigans of the anti-Trump side. Here's a few examples just off the top:
- Institutional capture largely by Democrat allies.
- FBI officials lied and made up the entire rationale for the Trump investigation. A duly-elected President btw.
- The 2020 BLM/Antifa riots were not just horrendous and worse than Jan 6....they were verifiably funded and linked to Democrat allies
- We also know (because the Oligarchy told us) that BLM/Antifa were set to riot again after the election. They were called off because they are Democrat-controlled allies.
- All of the 2020 election "lies" were akin to the Russiagate impeachments and persecution for 3 years prior. Why is only one a threat to Democracy?
- All of the 2020 election "lies" could have been disproven with transparent audits. That is what fueled Jan 6 rioting...no matter what Trump said or implied.
- As further evidence of the previous point that Trump-supporters are not pro-Trump against their values. Look at the vaccine boos he gets...not nearly as aligned with him as most supposed cult leaders.
- Biden and Harris poisoned the well on vaccines, Hillary (and Democrats) declared the 2016 was stolen....yet only when Trump does similar things is when "Democracy" is under threat.
I will be honest that I am not a Trump fan, for many reasons that even TDS folks are right about on occasion. And I think him winning the Presidency is a horrible sign for our country. But an even worse sign is that he's still a better candidate than the Democrats have put forth. That is the most troubling sign...that the Democrats are so captured by the Oligarchy that they cannot find anybody that resonates with the working class populace better than Trump. Its shameful and despicable.
Well put
To say the Trump is Sam's weak spot is to say that an amoeba is just about as big as a giraffe.
This whole thing is about race!!!
and about people being fed up with being called racist while they have been lovingly walking on eggshells for our colorful friends.
I don't even care what white people say I know what's at the heart of this, Not I nor they gave no funk if Trump was a cad or grabbed em by the coochie or whatever ...this was an f u to BLM and believe me they deserve it...
now as much respect as I have for Sam I have to say that this falls in line with his down side but I can't believe that it's this big and I still can't even believe that he doesn't get it, that, stupid people and brilliant people don't give a f*** that Trump is Trump.. they hired him specifically to be Trump!! so I have to believe if I'm going to give Sam full credit I have to believe that Sam is in the government's pocket and knows why that the government and now him is playing it this way ..
Sam is just too smart to believe this s*** but I've been wrong before.
This -is -race.
And nooooooooo we don't unfairly hate the b/ack man or unfairly hate any other man... this is about the most egregiously hypocritical ones (bl×) pretending that they haven't en$/aved everyone forever yet they somehow have convinced themselves (and even convinced us) that they should be the moral arbiters here in America.
Oof this is horrid
Problem is the base of the Democrat party despises the working class especially the white working class. You could see it in their callous comments regarding the destruction in the BLM riots. Peoples livelihood being destroyed was trivialized in the most callous ways imaginable. The Democrats can’t really try to appeal to the working class without angering a base that absolutely despises the working class
Your last sentence is the touch on the whole problem. I think Trump was good in hind sight for it's showing the players with cards in there hands.
Sam to me is so far gone in his perception about Trump that he views it as Truth and actively will deny anyone who he might think, may, have differing opinions, which is where I can't help but presume he's slowly moving towards idealism over Truth.
Sometimes Truth is found in the mud.
Your 'examples' are mostly opinions, falsehoods, and speculation.
You redeemed yourself - somewhat - in the final paragraph.
Thanks for the video, is quite educative and good practice for my non-native ears
you will not learn a lot this way..it was one sided discussion aimed to ridicule the right wing in america
@@yar245 Sadly thats part of the world, I´m ring wing in my own two countries , but still is educative how intellectuals of both sides make arguments.
It is quite sad when discussing such things as this, that it is an echo chamber with no real substance that draws thought new thinking heaven forbid. How far fallen Sam has become. If not to pubicly disprove evidence, and help people understand your side, you abolish everything that goes against what your opinion is and choose not to reach an understanding collectively with all sides. i mean as to bash either party and not even listen and/or disprove claims the other has, is in fact the problem that is dividing our country. Also this is accepted because of the circus show that is in the office of the president right now. sad, very dissapointing.
You are having talk about American democracy and you are discussing that with David Frum???!!! Good job Sam! I am surprised you didn’t invited Bill Kristol to! 😂
Invite Bill Kristol to what?
@@JConway358 to discuss “ American democracy “!
Thank you Sam !! Stay on course.This one is extremely Important.
Looking forward to sam having a discussion regarding Durhams recent pleadings with the Clinton/Obama campaign!.
I'll not hold my breath.
That was obviously all in the name of saving Democracy
Wonderful conversation. As someone who grew up in the 90's shortly after the fall of communism here in the Czech republic, I have to say I sometimes feel quite anxious and pesimistic about the future of democracy. A lot of s**t we've been trying to overcome over here seems to be coming back and flooding the west. Here in Czechia, on our collective psyche, there exists a deep scar of cynicism and at times a sort of immoral form of pragmatism. It comes among else from an underlying distrust towards authorities, good intentioned people (politicians), towards change, plurality etc. Ever since the 1948 communist win, ordinary people learnt not to trust each other, only use one another for own gains, leave the believes honestly held to themselves, because neighbour might be listening, people learnt not to get hopes up in a better tomorrow. Then in the late 80's, early 90's came the abrupt change towards "anything is possible" democracy, and many of the corrupt officials and powerful people who others couldn't honestly trust just stayed on top, and kept being corrupt, only under a new regime. It's so difficult to crawl out of that hole, even though it might have gotten a tiny bit better. Now I'm scared to think what could happen to this slow positive trend, when even the western democracies fall into distrust.
Very well put and as a Polish that's exactly how I feel as well.
Only those that lived through tyranny can recognize it as it is slowly being tightened on western civilization. The water is being turned up on the pot and most peoples grown up in freedom don't recognize it. We are doomed.
@@honeybadger5933
I personally haven't lived through tyranny. I'm experiencing generational gaps, seeing the character traits and people the past regime has left behind. It's through having the comparison, being part of the generations towards which globalized world and then the internet opened up while we were still young.
Democracy is a banker scam, that's why. Even Plato saw this..
@@throughhumaneyes7648
That feels like an empty phrase to me. I value democracy for it spreads power over all of us, not singal individuals. It creates failsafe mechanisms, makes it harder for a corrupt individual to corrupt the whole system. Democratic process makes us engage higher cognitive states, not just leave everything to primal urges. It pressures us to be interested in the world around us, to stay informed, to come in contact with all kinds of people, to have to compromise, debate...
Trust me, you do not want to live in a country where civilians just wave their hand in resignation, leaving mafia, the law of corruption, fear and physical strength on top. That resignation, passivity corrupts the soul.
Why does Harris venerate experts and democracy? If democracy is so important then we're less likely to get experts in charge. If we want experts in charge we won't have democracy. If he values experts he shouldn't care about "attacks on democracy."
No matter how strong your democracy is you don’t get to vote on facts. And in the same manner what society values can’t be derived from facts. Or let’s say you can try either, but your system is unsustainable because it’s in conflict with the laws of nature. So you need democracy as the best known system to determine what you value as a society, and experts to decide how to best implement the values decided upon. There, not so hard to see why he venerates both, is it?
@@semperFi4ever100 why is Democracy the best system over theocracy, a republic, monarchy, constitutional monarchy with some democracy, dictatorship, Anarcho Communism or Anarcho capitalism?
Imagine the worst people and least intelligent in society. Do you have that picture in your head? Now imagine the best intentioned people and the experts in various fields. Who outnumbers who? Their votes are equal. The more democratic a society the worst results for people voting in experts. People vote for what they want not based on expertise and what's true.
@@DUDEBroHey I mean, let me be clear, when I say democracy I of course mean a republic, with democratically elected representatives. I’m not speaking of direct democracy. If anything I agree that modern western democracies attach too much weight to popular opinion. That’s exactly what I’m saying though, on questions of fact (like what’s the best way of reducing Corona deaths, or is climate change real) we shouldn’t give equal weight to all voices , but we do, way too much. But on questions of value (like is peace with other nations a higher good or our conception of human rights, or when does a human life begin), modern democracy has the best long-term track-record of producing content people who feel they are in charge of their own destiny. There’s no evidence I know of which would suggest that other systems do better. Wouldn’t you agree to that?
@@semperFi4ever100 no i don't agree at all. I have to talk ideas rather than specifics or the conversation becomes about specifics. The USA is now much more democracy than republic. Sure, we elect representatives but for too many people have the "right" to vote. Politicians only have to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Politicians have no insensitive for peace because people for what they want. Expanding socalled voter rights is a mistake. The 17th amendment was a mistake. People voting directly for president even with the electoral college is a mistake. States should have a system for electors absent popular vote. One of the few news sources i check often is anti war. The USA has too much democracy and constantly meddles in other nations. The USA would be better off getting more republic than democracy with high standards to have the ability to vote. Giving voices to all people is anti expert. Any system of politics (or anarchy) is better than most or all western democracies.
If you put the names of 500 politicians and government officials (state level and prominence) into a hat and pulled took the names out of the hat at random do you think you'll get the names of geniuses? Or do you think the average politician or official is a fool? We got them through a democratic process.
Love how this is starting Sam, ty.
Not a fan of that Trump guy, huh?
Who would?
That’s nuts. Ppl are not voting on “modes of being” they still vote on who’s likable, who’s the opposite of the prior guy, who is perceived to deal with the economy best.
This conversation is the reason I've been sending money to Adam Kinzinger's organization Country First. I'm 63 years old and have never before contributed money to any political party until now.
So you think Adam Kinzinger is a real hero? Wow.
I hope some day you can come to terms with your self.
David Frum. Right.
As a Canadian, I listened to this with fear that we're headed in the same direction. The recent protests and blockades across our country the past 3 weeks has started a lot of conversations that were once had when only speaking about Americans. The lack of faith in Canadian institutions is growing.
Also lots of funding are from US. It’s really sad watch Canada bring hold hostage by small wing nut portion of our population. PCP is happen, Bernier has been on few shows promotion anti government. Yes, very worrisome.
I'm from Ontario and my workplace is full of people that support the blockades and they even went down to Ottawa to support these movements. I'm completely overwhelmed and outnumbered. It's really disturbing. The misinformation online is really creating a split in the population.
To be fair Canadian politicians also imported the "Oh you say you don't like my , it's because you're a racist, sexist, transphobe ... " approach from US.
@@jonsnow9649 Maybe lots of them are those things, as uncomfortable as that is to acknowledge for people. Nobody want to admit they are those things.
@@TheAstraeuss Yup, they very likely are overrepresented in the group ... that's why the strategy kind of works. Likely the truckers are more right-wing and such views are overrepresented on the right.
That still doesn't mean that such comments are anything but deflections from the actual valid issue that is trying to be confronted. You want lower taxes ? RACIST !!! You want healthcare for the poor ??? COMMIE !!! ... etc ...
Yeah… don’t fall for the whole “Europeans have it better because they have more political parties” idea. You can have seventeen parties and only really have one or two choices among those parties. In fact, as soon as any real opposition begins to form, usually all the parties will gang up on the newcomer and form coalitions against it to prevent unwanted change. Can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your point of view…
I agree, I also don't want seventeen parties....but how about JUST ONE MORE? Having only two choices is as close as we can get to having just one choice, which is really no choice at all.
I feel like we live in two different worlds sam.
What world do you live in?
@@loookaroundyou How much time do you have?
@@garythacker6731 All the time until I'm dead.
Gonna elaborate on that or just make useless comments?
****Wow **** regulate the algorithm! Who gets to decide? Congress? They don’t even understand SM, BTC or blockchain.
Could we possibly get some type of discord notification for the name of whoever is speaking? Hard to tell who is saying what.
I was kinda on the fence about this interview. But once the guy compared Republicans to comrade rubishev, I was out. That's way over the top. And I think a lot of what keep people coming back to trump is that in these types of.... "impartial" discussions is the failure to acknowledge these same issues on the left. Or "how did trump discredit institutions?" Has an answer as simple as "the institutions did that to themselves, trump just pointed it out." Trump has power because we refuse to acknowledge the sins of his opposition, and his supporters have noticed.
Does anyone agree with me that Sam's audio subscription is overpriced? Last I checked it was up around 15 dollars a month or so, which actually rivals Netflix, although Netflix is going to like 20 a month soon. I am happy to pay for content I find valuable (not looking for a freebie by any stretch), but I have my limits of what I find fair, and if I detect an unreasonable price it's hard for me to want to pay it. I think the sweet spot for an audio subscription is 4.99-7.99. If Sam were at the highest end of this range I would subscribe and never check it again; I'd stay subscribed forever. However, at 15 dollars or so, I can't get behind that price for an audio subscription. Sure he's a brilliant guy and I love his work, I buy all of his books, and I'm happy to pay for his audio, but personally I find that price missing the mark.
I've mentioned this before and got the obligatory responses, so let's just get them out of the way now:
- he has a right to charge whatever he wants
- if you don't wanna buy it then don't listen
- you can't afford 15 dollars a month?
- nobody is forcing you to subscribe
Yeah, overpriced & overrated
Probably because he has to make up for all the subscriptions he lost after sneering at people who had concerns over Russiagate. That explains the rather more conciliatory interview with Jordan Peterson recently too.
If you feel that you can't afford it, just ask for a free subscription. He'll give you one.
2:01:50 Plus.... we don't define ourselves by the party we voted for. Americans are proud to say "I've always voted Dem/Rep and always will!"
Here people switch all the time depending on how parties do/have done and the times.
AND sometimes parties have to form coalitions to get a majority which forces them to negotiate.
This shit pisses my off so much I can't even process it, sometimes. It's so depressing.
The reason you can't process it is because they are lying to you. They are the ones subverting our democracy.
@@johnnyappleseed7105 Who’s they?
The political and media establishment. Read the latest from the Durham Report that just dropped Friday and ask yourself if any of the people on Sam's panel would apologize for their industries blatant propaganda. They never will, which tells you all you need to know.
It would have been fantastic if you had recorded the Zoom meeting and posted that here. I found that throughout my listening to the podcast, I was unsure of which person was speaking. If it had been Zoom, you could have seen who was talking. Great podcast nonetheless!
I like Zoom better, being a skillful reader of micro-expressions I always feel a little hamstrung by audio podcasts even though Sam has proven himself eminently honorable.
I was unsure of which person was speaking, cos they all sounded the same, boring, didn;t we have 4 years of this tripe and dribble?
@@scarecrowbar3375 maybe the whole presentation should have been made into a few hundred 10 sec Tik Tok vids eh? that will surely be more of a match to your seemingly non-existent attention span
@@scarecrowbar3375 still crying that your orange daddy lost?
This is so incredibly one-sided I'm honestly not sure what to think about it.
Sometimes, there really is only one side.
If what you care about is the truth, then there really isn't more than one side.
It is either true, or it isn't.
You're not supposed to think - that's the point
I never understood how people fall for totalitarian demagoguery.
Cheers from Denmark 🇩🇰
1:54:30 No, you are not free to say "cocaine cures headaches" because that's a medical claim, and medical claims are regulated by the FDA. The FDA can police speech relevant to the practice of medicine, 1st Amendment notwithstanding.
Absolutely fantastic discussion. About civics class: they should be using this conversation.
That I had to get out of the bath at the 11 minute mark and stop this so I could avoid an uncharacteristic self righteous rant by Sam disappoints me more than I could say in few enough words to avoid your sleeping before you finished reading.
Sorry, Mr. Harris, you seem, very much indeed, to have taken political sides.
I am not sure what else is worth saying.
You obviously have nothing worth saying.
Why do you think what you said aligns with reality?
Oh, an angst filled UA-cam youngster is trying to provoke a prescribed response.
How profound.
There you go, I gave you one. Now you can show your friends and congratulate yourselves.
Corruption is the future of american "democracy "!
What if trump or whoever genuinely thrashes biden? What then
Oh, in that case it'll magically become OK to say the election was rigged, and the media will create a new conspiracy theory to explain why.
Sam brought up an important point when addressing the first question regarding an educated public.
He said something to the effect of "we only have 2 years for the wolf at the door to be pushed back".
To me, that is the most troubling aspect of what is happening now.
We have a very small window of opportunity to make sure this country doesn't fall into the hands of a party that has adopted an overwhelming desire for an authoritarian style of government.
If that happens, what are the chances of another party ever taking back control?
All we will be able to do at that point is make podcasts to mourn the death of our democratic process and how we failed to save it.
An "educated" person is someone who agrees with you? Or watches the same media as you? Or maybe they went to the right schools?
@@croissants1280 I was referring to Sam's response to a question that was posed to the panel so... chill bro.
I wasn't even talking about an "educated" public. I was commenting on Sam's indication of the short period of time we have to prevent autocratic lunatics from taking over our government.
@@croissants1280 yes, an educated person is someone who went to the right schools.
The "democratic" process has been dead for a very long time. Gerrymandering and a privatized political donations system are the causes. A simple rule of forcing all voting districts to be counties and contiguous following the population rule to within Nth degree is the only fair solution for the people. The elite do not want that since it would be something they could not control. Think about that.
The authoritarianism is clearly coming from forces that have taken over the democratic party. How many unlawful mandates did the orange used car salesman decree?
April 1st came early this year 😂😂😂
Can we start mapping the online landscape? Most of the online world is invisible, we don't have shared language for it, so we can't even ask google. Can we popularise ubiquitous hashtags and search keywords within our online communities across platforms?
There is a broad set of distinguishing features on the left and on the right that make the labels useful. Most people can figure it out.
What are they?
@@contactkeithstack
In simplest form:
Right - profit/property is more important than people.
Left - people are more important than property.