The Infernal Logic of Jihad: A Conversation with Graeme Wood (Episode
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Sam Harris speaks with Graeme Wood about the October 7th atrocities in Israel, the unfolding war in Gaza, and the ongoing problem of global jihadism.
Graeme Wood is a national correspondent for The Atlantic. He has written for The New Yorker, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and many other publications. He was the 2014-2015 Edward R. Murrow Press Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, and he teaches in the political science department at Yale University. He is the author of The Way of the Strangers: Encounters with the Islamic State.
Website: www.theatlanti...
Twitter: @gcaw
November 3, 2023
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I notice numerous comments crying over the Israel Gaza war. Meanwhile no tears or calls for ceasefire in Syria civil war which has killed over 300 000 and displaced 14 million. Or any of the other wars taking place.
Because Israel is essentially a Western state?
Muslims and their supporters doesn't care for Yemen neither.
Very true
You’re quite right.
This hyper fixation on Israel isn’t motivated by love for the poor poor Arab refugees. It’s real motivation is and always has been the hatred of Jews.
yeah its because Palestinians are a tool to hurt Israel. antisemitism is a disease
I wish Christopher Hitchens was alive to give us his wisdom
Hitchens was an ardent critic of Israel and had been pro-Palestinian his whole life. Ofc, he'd condemn Hamas and Islamic extremism, but would have a much more nuanced and robust conversation on the plight of the Palestinians than Sam ever has, and unfortunately, ever will.
@@NavAK_86you're absolutely correct. It's unfortunate.
He is very missed.
To think kids these days get their “intellectual” influences form the likes of Hasan Piker and video streamers…
I go back and watch his debates. He had so much faith in humans. This king themselves into a better future
@@NavAK_86Hitchens detested Islam. The October 7th attacks probably would have made him reconsider the way September 11th did.
Its not irrational to fear Islam
Definitely irrational to "fear" 1/5 of the worlds population
That's being sane and informed.
It’s rational to fear all the nations who hold religion as some sort of validation for anything. The U.K. and US over Iraq, Israel over the occupation of land because of its “holy sites” hamas and hezbollah nations for their hatred of non-Muslims (even more so ex-Muslims) Hinduism and their saffron terrorists.
The Isreal Palestine conflict to me looks more and more as if religious ideals have overtaken national sovereignty to despicable consequences.
@@Theactivepsychoswhat can be easily explained by greed and racial tribalism i see no reason to attribute to religious marketing.
Especially when they do what Hamas recently did, on October 7,, and not a single important Muslim voice, has a problem with it . With Jews and Israelis they at least have a much greater capacity to actually criticise their own side.
Almost everyone else sounds dumb after you listen to Sam. He is a standard for clear thinking. Of course there are others but he has a unique clarity of thought.
His thinking is very foggy on this issue. Quasi-religious even.
Listen to Gabor Mate's take
@@arsphoenix1822an example?
@@strongblackcoffee9573gabor mates take was so superficial and emotional and failed to recognise the issue, he thinks the rise of anti semitism after oct 7, is from “sickness of the soul”? Whatever th Fu** that means, just goes to show how little he knows about islam and how ignorant he is of it, didn’t know who he was, and im so glad to have found out what he’s about so that I don’t waste any more time on that guy.
@@allenalphonse4962 I mean, he's a Holocaust survivor and ex Zionist who has actually been to Gaza. But sure listen to Sam instead, he's the authority...
Is there a more clear voice than Sam Harris in all of this? It still amazes me how people will label him a racist without understanding his point about the dangers of religious fundamentalism. We need a left of center voice that speaks the truth about what groups like Hamas truly stand for.
This guy isn't a clear voice but a voice of deceit and if you cannot see that, well, I feel for you. He CLEARLY has a standing for isreal and the zionist who believe the entire Arabian peninsula belongs to them.
You keep following him and he'll lead you to a place you would regret deeply
I am disgusted by anyone that thinks what these monsters did on October 7 was justified in any way.
Justified, no. Explainable, yes. Everyone knows Hamas are monsters. But do you really know so little of the history of the area that you cannot see a single reason why this might happen?
@@theepiphany3560 I know a little history and I understand the rage. The part that disgusts me is the barbaric sadistic actions taken by these monsters against innocent civilians. No valid excuse for it. None!
@@theepiphany3560 There is a "reason" why everything happens. Whether or not that reason is justified is the question.
Not justified but expected, given the situation.
Hamas didn't exist until 39years of Israeli occupation and killing . we're not saying that Hamas are not barbaric, we're just saying that They're in a defensive position and Israel is in an offensive position. what Sam is doing is hypocrthical and unfaire. he is focusing on the moral equavalence and without adressing the geopolitical picture and not showing any concerne about Palestinian civilian deaths. @@dogsandyoga1743
Hitchens points out that both parties of god have vetoed any intelligent logical progress time after time . Makes it feel impossible to solve .
That was extremely well put.
It's diabolical- but religious dogmas do go extinct - they really do - Sadly, not in our lifetime, however. ☄️
Agreed!!!
Hitchens’ pointed out many times how religion, any religion, has severely retarded the advancement of civilization, everywhere, every time. You cannot think rationally while believing the irrational. Religions are not progressive by definition. The are indeed the man-forged manacles of the mind.
100%
There is no good solution aside from education and atheism. See you in 10000 years.
I'd argue rationality and healthy skepticism rather than simply "atheism".
I don't trust atheists either. The Soviets were a thing. I'm for a strong constitutional democracy with secular government and public education. There must be a national civics course of study that emphasizes liberal values.
As an atheist it is sad to see these kind of extremist comments - a genocide of palestinians is happening as we speak. Diplomats and govt strategists around the world, along with the UN condemn it as a totally unnecessary and stupid way to respond to terrorism. There are steps that could be taken right now to decrease deaths on both sides
@@dogsandyoga1743yeah. There was a time when Christians were called atheists pejoratively. We need to focus on skepticism and observations of reality.
Dismembering people in front of their families before killing them: I first heard of that happening in the post-WW2 era during the genocide in Rwanda, and have since learned about similar human rights abuses in other places as well. The 1991 coup in Haiti included people being forced to eat parts of their own bodies that had been hacked off.
In a culture like the 2020s U.S., where no small number of people feel that their human rights are being violated if their egotism is not “validated” by strangers, it’s easy to forget what human rights abuses actually are about and why it was necessary to write the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Regular, ordinary people do horrendous things when the conditions are favorable and they fear the consequences of not joining in the collective crimes. We don’t want to think about it but we need to.
In John Gardner’s Grendel, the savage beast notes of man’s behavior toward man, “It was slightly ominous because of its strangeness-no wolf was so vicious to other wolves- “ and this is the tragic truth against which we all need to push. Calling out false moral equivalences is key to that task, and I appreciate how this podcast does that.
Hi Paul, I find your comment very interesting, because I studied Rwanda and Haiti at the doctoral level.
Apologies if I am misunderstanding or missing something, as I go into this lengthy but of course still incomplete (as there is too much to cover) reply:
It sounds like these examples from Rwanda and Haiti make you more in agreement with Sam. In contrast, my research on those situations is the primary reason I am very critical of Sam's take on Israel-Palestine: he is essentializing the groups (culturally and religiously) rather than analyzing the historical and political conditions that shape the situation, which is precisely what feeds never-ending cycles of violence. Even Christopher Hitchens, an anti-Zionist anti-theist of Jewish descent, was able to appreciate the plight of the Palestinians while still denouncing Islamic extremism, so I'm not sure why it is so difficult for Harris. As Hitch said, "I'm one of those people of Jewish descent who believes that Zionism would be a mistake even if there were no Palestinians."
As for Rwanda, the Hutu genocide of the Tutsis was organized by the French-backed Habyarimana regime. The Hutu Power ideology had been fomented for decades by the Catholic Church. The transition of Hutu and Tutsi from relatively fluid class categories into hardened racial identities was "gifted" by Belgian colonial race science.
When the Rwandan Patriotic Front exiles invaded from Uganda to put down the genocide, they took power and became victim-savior figures on the world stage. As the RPF began leading reprisal massacres against Hutus and installing a veritable Tutsi ethnostate, the world powers gave the victims of genocide a free pass. Conveniently, the RPF are also a major player in the brutal extraction of conflict minerals from the ever-destabilized Congo.
The major lesson is that a historically victimized group cannot be given a free pass to commit reprisals. The historical record can be used to construct Hutu and Tutsi nationalist projects, so some kind of common identity must be (re)disovered.
If there is a religion to blame here, it is Catholicism, but even that would be very reductive, just as the religious thesis is in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Truth and reconciliation committees have been important for de-essentializing these groups and trying to open a path forward. We need to see something similar in Israel-Palestine instead of one-sided polemics against religion (and just to be clear, I am a complete anti-fundamentalist when it comes to religion, all religions, but this is only one factor among many in the situation).
As for Haiti, the executions, massacres, and dismemberments in Haiti from 1991 to 1994 were committed by FRAPH, a US-backed paramilitary death squad led by General Raol Cedras and Emmanuel Toto Constant. They massacred thousands of members of Aristide's Fanmi Lavalas Party and now live in exile in the US and Panama. The US refused to extradite Cedras and refuses to open FRAPH's documents from their time as the ruling regime in Haiti.
At this time, some former Duvalierist macoutes, the terroristic secret police from the Papa and Baby Doc regimes, were also massacred by peasants as retribution for their many decades of inflicting torture and mutiliation and death on the Haitian peasantry. This is another vastly complex situation with internal and external factors that is irreducible to a simple cultural or religious explanation, but the Western eye frequently just sees Haitian psychopathology just as it frequently only sees Arab backwardness when looking at Palestine.
Knowing the geopolitics that shaped these nightmarish and ongoing situations in Rwanda and Haiti makes me logically and morally opposed to the idea that it's simply culture or religion that creates the conflict in Israel-Palestine. When Sam uses his favorite term "moral equivalence," what I hear is an obfuscation of the social, historical, and geopolitical realities at play, which would be the abysmal conditions in the West Bank and Gaza. To appropriate a favorite phrase of Sam's, these conditions are "crazy-making." If we could wave a magic wand to erase Hamas and even Islam itself from West Bank and Gaza, the apartheid would still need to end or else the social pathologies would continue to fester, just under new aesthetics.
Apologies again for the length of this reply. I tried to keep it as brief yet complete as possible and likely failed at both. Regards.
You should look up the Nanjing Massacre.
I find the swipe at denial of healthcare, and public safety for trans people (thinly dog-whistled as “people who feel their human rights are being violated if their egotism is not “validated” by strangers) as an unconscionably noxious straw man. Being assaulted, thrown out of hospitals, denied even ordinary (much less obviously trans-related health care), raped, murdered, having ordinary work and housing rights denied as a matter of law- simply for who people are born as- is exactly the same dehumanization that leads to atrocities. The very same groups that deny equal legal protection by law, and promote de facto violence against trans people by strangers ARE the same groups that promoted and GOT- jailing, systematic legally protected torture, mutilation and death penalty for lgbtq people, in Uganda.
The human rights violations against trans and gay (lgbtq) people in the US and the same people promoting legally sanctioned dehumanization for inborn traits, ARE the same people promoting atrocities on a grand scale elsewhere.
Shame on you for using intentional fallacies to promote a political agenda of acceptable rights violations, assault, torture and homicide- against your preferred group to hate, while hypocritically posing as someone who cares about the atrocities committed in the name of the bigoted dehumanization you yourself full-throatedly endorse.
Read the old testament and you will find plenty of these exact acts done in the name of a god, and commanded by as well, and done by Israel.
@@bitterroots7317 yes, not to mention plenty of terrorism and terrorist manifestos from the Jewish Lehi/Stern Gang during the founding years of Israel. And one of the founders became PM in 1983.
Richard Dawkins did a video covering some of this today. I was hoping you would, too. Love your content, Mr. Harris. Keep it coming.
Where can we find that?
I can’t find it
Can you provide a link?
Thank god, at least Dawkins is still in touch with reality.
@@MS-gx1tk lFnfDYHnghg
nothing scarier in this world right now than islam
Depends where you live. It doesn't concern me in the Nordics much. Failed integration of immigrants and refugees is a much more pressing issue among a dozen others.
@@hartyewh1And those immigrants, which culture they from? What religion they follow?
@@hartyewh1 The failed integration is almost exclusively due to islam culture and background.
All others immigration waves did integrate correctly with time, the one who doesn't and even has a long-term impact on the quality of life and security of the host country is the muslims one.
@@elsenm3965 With time as in the next generation is happening with the Syrian refugees as well. In my work I've met several and Islam has nothing to do with it and many are rather secular or culturally islamic instead of religously. They just have very limited support to get into employment, learn the language etc since most of those services were and are too limited for such a sudden jump in the amount of people needing them.
Planetary overshoot comes to mind. Which will lead to more tribal warfare.
36:58. Sam, I’m sure you’ve read it, but I invite everyone to read Ordinary Men, about the Nazi killing squads in Eastern Europe. Their mission was also to move from town to town etc, and it is essentially the same process you are describing. The chilling part is they were very ordinary and otherwise “good” people in that society.
Even Nazis kissed their wives and kids good night.
They didn’t want to be the person that wasn’t participating, leaving the nasty work for others to complete
We are all otherwise "good" people, except when we deal with the "other". Jeez, I never needed to read books to understand that.
I recently saw american media, otherwise a very humanistic media, celebrate ingenious tricks of ukrainian forces to trap and bu*n alive many russian soldiers.
Those russian soldiers were obviously the "other" soldiers. So were the civilians in hiroshima and nagasaki. We all, in our own frames of references, do find justifications for doing many things that we otherwise would not agree with.
@@saimbhat6243dont invade other homes. Oh you want a peaceful war lol
@@Dan16673 nothing justifies the horrific actions of torture and killing
Sam I’m your biggest fan, but for crying out loud make these discussions live in front of a camera. You’re audience will grow exponentially, especially with channel as mine which try to help by promoting your content.
Indeed. Making the discussions live would grow his podcast, thereby spreading these important ideas and conversations.
If they were in front of a camera, people would tell him to wear a nicer suit. Listen to the conversation.
I’d love to see beautiful, musical visualizers over all these conversations. Maybe with overlayed, repetitive beats like most Twitchers have constantly playing. It’d be so cozy & relaxing 👏
Yes
@@Refurb963 Seeing the person talk makes it more relatable and engaging.
"Islam is the mother of bad Ideas"
--- Sam Harris
@sg23148 'Motherload' is Americanised gibberish... 'mother' is more relevant and succinct.
@@commonwunder But has a totally different meaning
@Agtsmirnoff 'Motherload' isn't even a word. It's motherlode.
@@commonwunderNo " mother" here makes little sense as it suggests islam is the only source of bad ideas. Mother lode; however, suggests it's a principal vein of bad ideas.
Inspired from the grandmother judaïsme
Thank you, Sam! And also thanks to Graeme Wood! There are no two people I would rather listen to talking about this issue.
I don't just enjoy what your doing, I Love it! I would like to see more video with the pod cast though... Peace!
That's been my beef with Sam for years is that he doesn't seem to enjoy going on video, despite it being much easier to follow. For this reason, I often watch other channels who bring Sam on.
🥴🥴🥴
I stand with Israel 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱
Wherever they do?
yeah the whole scene of oct 7 is like a horror movie. You need to be a certain type of person to kill a stranger that didnt do anything to you like that. its pure horror tbh.
My imagination is too damn good to listen to that. its pure horror. omg... bombing people is one, but this... picking up whatever they find to decapitate someone... thats horror. thats like some SAW level of grotesque ..
Like you make it sound as if it was the worst thing that happened in the history of human kind. Go look at what the Nazis or Japan did during WW II. And they weren't weak people who grew up in an open air prison.
Not like that hasn't ben happening to Palestinians for a 75 yeRs
@@xyzmediaandentertainment8313L
@@xyzmediaandentertainment8313
You’re clearly mentally challenged.
Have you noticed Sam hasn’t publicly criticized Netanyahu’s right wing government now using insane messianic bible verses? Hypocrite
Why does it matter to you ? Does it change the reality in any way?
@SGN30 Not really. Sam is gone to me actually. And defend him from what? That he does not talk about what this other guy wants?
Sure. Like I even need to.
@@Alnivol666 no one likes a hypocrite… the audience will decide… the hypocrisy is astonishing
What insane Bible verses did he use?
There's a reason why the words "Islam" and "terrorism" are virtually synonymous.
With everything that’s going on, and the clear-as-day historical and political backdrop of where we are, I’m really struggling to understand why you are pushing this moral relativism angle. Is it just opportunistic, and you’re capitalising on the moment to give your previous work some I-told-you-so relevance?
Seriously reducing this type of thing to religious intolerance is baffling. And in the current climate just adding to the chorus of support for really dubious stuff.
Ps huge fan of yours and all the work you do on waking up. Really scratching my head on this one though.
Israeli society is unfortunately not a "heavily armed society"..there are strict restriction on who can and cant cary a gun..90% of the ppl cant.. it seems like a change is unfolding
You people are on crack. Thats your take? Get guns so you can protect ill gotten goods?
@36 min
Harris's line:
Jihad functioning as a bug light
for attracting psychopaths..
was spot on & some
funny sheeit..
Hamas is bad, Jihadists are bad, Islamists are bad, sure, agreed. No question.
Now, let’s not stop there. Creating a Jewish ethnostate on a land already inhibited by Arabs is also bad and asks for trouble. To ignore the fact that Jewish, Christian and Muslim Arabs have been living in the Middle East peacefully, side by side forever is also lazy and misleading.
To make a podcast about the dangers of religious fanaticism with the sole focus on Islam while ignoring Netanyahu’s own use of barbaric Biblical verses to justify the ongoing killings of civilians, again, very misleading and hypocritical.
I could go on and on and on…..but I’m familiar enough with your work to know that you’re more interested in spreading your biases rather than having an honest conversation.
@78skj I completely agree. Well said ❤
Are we going to just breeze past the fact that Israel is surrounded by Arab Islamic ethnostates?
Or that Israel is the only native land the Jewish / Hebrew people have ever had?
I don't know what you're talking about where Cristians Muslims and Jews have lived in harmony forever - but the closest thing to it in the Middle East is the state of Israel.
Is it really that bad making a state of “Arab” land?
Where do we draw the line on “ethno states” anyways?
Is Japan an ethno state? Poland? China? India? Turkey?
Would you prefer the Jews to have yet another genocide and put yet another Islamic shithole country where Israel currently is?
Well said. Sam is a little too confident and cemented in his ideas. He may well be correct but I feel that he stopped following the thread back to the spool.
Jewish, Christian and Muslim Arabs and many more religions are living peacefully in Israel.
you know why the Jews have a state? I give you a hint - Adolf Hitler. your comment is BS
…and here is the crux 34:04, the moral equivalence… if Hamas kills 1400, and Israel kills 1400, their is a moral equivalence, however brutal. But Israel killing two, twenty, a hundred a month, being attacked, and then killing 10,000 isn’t a moral equivalent, it’s genocide!!!
I’m not a fan of Islam, Hamas or even the Palestinians for that matter, but what this podcast fails to even acknowledge is that this is a religious war, it’s not about land, resources or even retribution, it’s about Islam hating the Jews, and the Jews dehumanizing Islam. Pretending either side has some higher moral standing is simply propaganda!!!
NO Israel has the moral high ground. Your argument is sophistry a new version of the Dresden defense. Hamas targets civilians and the IDF wages a war with the exact loss of life such a war would produce in an urban setting. This is the sophistry of conflation.
Very poor bias shown by Harris, who is typically one of my favorites. At 11:50 Sam asks his guest if Netanyahu is *covertly* encouraging Israelis to settle and encroach on Palestinian land, then his guest basically says Netanyahu has explicitly encouraged it (because remember God promised them all of this land). How does Sam respond? Sam: …moving on to the next question. The fact is, people are not angry at Israelis or Jewish people, it’s their government that allows this and it’s their government that is doing the relentless bombing on Hamas AND innocent Palestinians. Stop painting this hero/villain dichotomy that doesn’t actually exist. If someone just moved into your living room, then invited their family to set up in your kitchen, then told you that your house is actually their house because God told them what would you do? What if the police came and said “actually you have to allow them to take over your house and you need to find another home” what then? What about if you do find a different home and they start all over again?
Yes, as an Irish person I think back to 1641 and know I would have been at the forefront. Supporting illegal settlements is a red line Israel never should have crossed. It takes away whatever arguable moral high ground they could claim
Nobody is “moving into anyone’s living room”, it’s empty disputed land that Israel is (likely illegally) building settlements on
Sorry I had to correct the record from the misinformation you’re spreading there antisemite
I can't believe I had to scroll down this far to see this. Extremely disappointed in Sam. Been a massive fan for decades. Still am with regard to all things neuroscience. But he evidently can't help himself when it comes to Israel. Extreme bias on his part. He's so blinded.
I agree. Sam Harris has extreme blinders when it comes to muslims suffering. Very disappointing. This coming from a person that has the Waking up app on their phone for the last 5 years.
Sam has blinders on for sure with this subject - very disappointed in him for not supporting Palestinian freedom and be able to distinguish between what Hamas did and what Israel is doing to innocent civilians. I’m done listening to him!
If you took religion out of Islam and judged it just based on a social construct of how to run a society, it would be judged to be one of the most depraved organizational ideas in the history of humanity. But people feel they can apologize for Islam because it has something to do with worshipping the divine.
You can't take religion out of islam. That is like saying "take life out of humanity" or "take food out of spaghetti." It is inherently part OF islam, ffs. Islam's whole being is a religious reality. The very reason that people think it has meaning/authority is because they believe it is what their god wants. And that is the very problem. With anything else, the substance and reasonableness of beliefs are scrutinized. With religion, it is given a free pass from such analysis, both by the believers, and by most people outside of it, via the "Everyone is entitled to their religious beliefs" doctrine. They get to HAVE the beliefs. They do NOT get to have them without them being criticized. Far too many people lack the slightest courage, to attack any wrongful religious beliefs, and that is because they know it opens the door to their own beliefs being addressed, and they know their beliefs are also ridiculous and often dangerous.
@@slyjokerg yes you can.
@@chavruta2000 You are either incapable of understanding the nature of it, or you are being utterly intellectually dishonest.
@@slyjokerg or too busy to explain it to you.
@@chavruta2000 That is a rather convenient and unsurprising cop out. LOL
That's odd... I've heard at least a dozen Jewish intellectuals who know as much, or more, about this issue than anyone else, and I haven't heard a single one "praise" Hamas, or say anything good about them at all. Where are these people? Who are they?
They don't have to praise them. Just no say anything about them. It is in the framing
they are likely off the radar of those who use "whom" wrongly... ffs.
@@memoryhero That was sure worth pointing out. Did you have anything resembling an actual argument of substance or just posturing? I'll fix the typo so that you can sleep tonight. iff u kan reed thiz u shud no dat poenting ouut tipos iz lemp dik week, moooron.
@@Alnivol666 False. Every single one has condemned the action. I think it may be more of indoctrination preventing some from hearing. It's quite common.
@@kropotkinbeard1 sweet!
There is a six quintillion pound elephant in the room. Everyone sees it, but almost all are stupefied to point it out. We should rally around the brave public figures who aren’t afraid to poke the elephant.
I forgot my glasses. Might pointing out the elephant you mean since I've been told there are several?
@@hartyewh1 all forms of super natural make believe.
A foreign nation warping western media, military operations, and political outcomes in its favor as if these countries had no sovereignty at all.
Israel is to America what America is to nearly everyone else.
@@MrBelmontcain The solution to the situation needn't consider religion at all. We can leave that for the historians, but a political solution consists of security and prosperity and the nutbags can be pushed aside with, admittedly, some serious effort.
@sg23148 The happiest, most sucessful countries on earth are secular
This is so dumb he keeps saying if they could not kill civilians they wouldn’t WHEN THEY ALREADY DO ‼️‼️‼️‼️ idf is show in multiple videos targeting civilians ‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️
ok bot
So anyone with a opposing view of the politician’s and billionaire and msm is a bot 🤔🤣 how does that work
Anyone notice Sam has never talked to/debated a pro-Palestinian scholar on the subject?
Who would you suggest?
What's the point? Their arguments are weak. Go watch what happened when Coleman Hughes did that.
I did. Coleman kept repeating elementary level arguments you find on Twitter ''mOrAl eQuiValeNcy'' and the scholar kept digging deeper with facts and history that Coleman has never read in his life. It was embarrassing to watch for anyone who has followed this conflict longer than a month. @@mrpopo8298
Jewish scholars, Ilan Pappe and Norman Finkelstein are good starting points.@@ED-TwoZeroNine
@@mrpopo8298 Both Coleman Hughes and Sam Harris are historically-illiterate.
The suffering that was met to those children and female captives are unthinkable. I can't stop thinking about it, and hope I'm wrong about the captives.
Unfortunately Islamic culture without western influence around them doesn't value women by design so I hate to tell you its probably worse than you think.
You can tell a lot about a culture by understanding who they idolize, if that person is a person that would be in jail for both war crimes and raping children? probably not the best unfortunately.
Hi Sam, I am an Israeli from Netivot near Gaza. Sadly I feel like your guest gave a lot of distorted views regarding the issue. I would love to talk to you about it as I feel your guest was only fed information from a very specific faction of Israeli society.
Muslim community have a BIG problem with these fanatic islamists..this ideology have gone deep in some govs. etc..this is a major issue for the muslim world and rest of us pf course..but WE CANT do much..this is a problem that muslim community have to deal with so to speak..we can help them to fight ths but its realy them who must educate and what ever,to push this ideology back..thats what i belive
Really Sam? This conversation doesn’t merit removing the paywall as you’ve done with other topics in the past? What if I told you the Hamas terrorists were high on ayahuasca? 🤦🏻♂️
There should be an early release on patreon but full length at some point here
You used to be able to get a subscription for free if you emailed them, not sure how it is now.
@@OriginalMindTricktoo many people abused it as it's no longer an option. Can't blame him
@@paulfromt.o.7384 Yeah you gotta make money to support yourself.
Nobody owes you free anything
For anyone who needs a summary: Oct 7th bad, so Israel is justified in whatever response.
I anxious wait for an interview of a survivor from Gaza speaking of those dead children.
How can Sam still say Israel is taking "great pains" to avoid harming innocents?
He can say that for a very simple reason: If Israel actually wanted to harm civilians, there would be 800,000 dead, not 8,000.
The answer to your question is actually very easy to understand this once you realize that Israel is capable of complete genocide of Palestinians in a single day.
They have the ability to turn all of Gaza into rubble in a single day.
They don't do that, (and instead put their own soldiers at risk) for a very simple reason: They are in fact, taking great pains to avoid harming innocents.
@@TheEnergyBlueprint I appreciate you saying word for word what Sam has said. So do you simply mistrust the numbers coming out of the region showing the percentage of victims being women/children?
Putin has done far less damage, by comparison.
@@davecunningham579 If TEB were to trust the numbers, & if the numbers are 100% accurate, a yes/no answer to your question fails to refute his point.
Israel has dropped the equivalent of nearly 2 Hiroshima Bombs on Gaza....yet only 10k deaths
(for the record, the two atomic bombs killed between 175,000-250,000 instantly)
There is your proof right there
@@davecunningham579
1) Yes, never trust anything Hamas says
2) Half the population are child. Impossible some won't die.
3) Hamas does everything it can ensure maximum civilian deaths.
I think it is interesting that Sam brings up MyLai. He does it in the context of the fellow who proudly calls his parents to boast about his actions and then the conversation moves on to the parents reaction etc. Sam questions what that conversation might have been like if, say, a young american soldier had called home and how that conversation might have gone. Well, in a civilised society like the USA maybe the parents might have rebuked their son for partaking in such a massacre - do you think? Actually the whole of the USA had a chance to have a say in what that "ciivilised society" may have done in response to the killing of circa 500 unarmed men, women, children and infant civilians just because William Calley felt like it was a nice day for a massacre. Lieutenant Calley and 25 other soldiers were charged with premeditated murder (but also including attrocities such as gang rapes of women and children as young as 12yo). The result was that Calley was the only person to be found guilty out of 26 soldiers charged. His life sentence was commuted very quickly to 3 years house arrest by none other than the President of the USA. The really good news, though, is that none of the folks charged were jihadists. They were good young americans fighting to save the free world from communism - apparently.
Sam also has a familiar vent about Hamas hiding behind helpless civilians to fire their rockets - so blame them for the 4000 child deaths in Gaza and still counting in the period since October 7. I guess then that we can swing back to My Lai and say that the Viet Kong were hiding in tunnels and using helpless villagers as human shields - and then follow the distorted logic that My lai was somehow an inevitable consequence? In my several decades of life on this planet my observation is that it takes very little encouragement for seemingly "normal" civilised humans of any ethnic origin or religious persuasion to revert to unfathomable acts of cruel savagery, and they often dont need a "cause" to justify their behaviour. I dont know if a 2 state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict is any longer possible - but we should all be looking to our leaders to strive for lasting, meaningful peace - and not a scenario where one side just slowly disappears or disintegrates over the passage of time.
Big difference is that the US soldiers DID have to go through the courts and the public DID become aware of exactly what happened and rallied against the war because of it. Palestinians WANTED it to happen and handed out candy afterwards, spitting on the corpses of raped women…and they still support it in huge numbers. The Palestinian public isn’t going to rally against a war their elected military started, because they agree with it and support it. Your analogy is ridiculous
Netanyahu as you said, was using IDF to further his political aims by helping right-wing settlers expand and thereby lost sight of protecting other, potentially vulnerable communities. I'm surprised that civilians aren't armed in these outlier settlements.
The settlements were almost exclusively left wing liberals, many who were friends with Palestinians, who then killed and slaughtered them. Israel also doesn’t have a second amendment, at least for now. Regardless, there’s many important questions that need to be answered because the fact that the CIA and Mossad didn’t see them rehearsing this operation for two years seems hard to believe. Regardless, besides it being some of the most sickening evil I’ve ever seen, it’s put me into a state of depression and fear like I’ve never felt before. It’s not just the killing, it was the most sadistic and evil ways they killed innocent people.
Sam. I would love you to debate norm finkelstein.
Remember what happened when Sam tried to debate Noam Chomsky? Nothing much has changed. He still thinks that Israel has nothing but good intentions, and collateral damage is just an unfortunate consequence of any war blah blah blah.
The quintessential self-hating Jew
Norm: "Here is indisputable evidence illustrating every way you are wrong about Palestine."
Sam: "hmm"
I feel nauseous listening to the description of the attack
Sickening. Another reminder of what we are capable of
No what Islamic extremists are capable of
Sam is finally back talking about one of my favourite topics, and it's a topic that Sam excels at. It's unfortunate that a topic this important and timely is behind a paywall.
For the 1st time today i heard him say at the beginning if you cannot afford a subscription then send an email and you will be given one. I have pondered the value of having access to the rest of his talks quite a number of times over the last year. But as i have an unrecoverable injury (that limits my activities and income) i couldn't commit to the 8 pound a month subscription. So i will send this email i think, as i am a genuine case and would sincerely appreciate his full content. Maybe this is an option for others if they are aware of it.
You are wasting your time friend if you aren't even listening
@@Macfromwaleswhat are you talking about?
Read his correspondence with chomsky
If you can't afford it Sam offers you free subscription. Stop whining
It's not only the Kibbutz that were targeted but also cities like Ofakim and Sderot which are non "agricultural cooperatives"
Sam, I've always found you to be rational, so you should maintain a rational inquiry. Emotions shouldn't obscure the reality. Let's consider the whole scenario, break it down into separate parts, analyze each one individually, and then draw a conclusion:
There are two hostile nations living on each side of the border, one as the occupier, and the other as the occupied declared by International Court of Justice .
The occupier is known for its strong military and intelligence power.
The occupied nation has been frustrated for decades and is militarily weak.
A terror group from the occupied territory, armed with only a handful of guns, crosses the border into the occupier's territory, which has a strong military, and commits atrocities for hours long without facing any resistance.
In light of these facts, the conclusion could be that " Omission amounts into action "
The occupier's negligence does not justify the killing of thousands of innocent people. Even if such a level of negligence were showed by Israel's own internal law enforcement agencies inside their own state , it could lead to their own people turning against each other through looting and chaos.
Why are one people occupied in the 1st place. Pushing this narrative makes it seem like it is the weak against the strong without showing why the weak are weak and the strong are strong.
Israel has thought wars for its existence.
Arabs have not.
The whole situation is Arab envy.
This is how propaganda works, it takes bits of truth and creats its own myths. If you want to know how occupation look like you can study the actions of Nazi-Germany, Soviet Union or what Russia is doing in Ukraine now. This might help to discern what is occupation and what not.
@@valentinann7823
The main point I want to make is that if a terrorist group, armed with just a few guns, crosses the border of a state known for its formidable military power, enters its territory, commits atrocities for hours without facing any resistance, why shouldn't we conclude that 'omission amounts to action'? It is evident that these atrocities were intentionally allowed to happen. Netanyahu is cunning
International Court of Justice has no authority. They can't declare anything.
Well put.
Sam Harris you are very WISE
Sam Cain only see the Middle East through the lense of radical Islam. It’s becoming kinda gross.
Have liked Sam for years - even on radical Islam in general, but he’s always dropped the ball in thinking that radical Islam is the main issue at hand in places like Israel. There has been a long history of secular freedom fighters/terrorists too. And to think that most Palestinians fight with Hamas because they were convinced by propaganda and Muslim clerics to hate Jews is just so plane wrong and false, it’s almost cruel that someone who does so much thinking doesn’t get that.
If they hadn’t been pushed off their land, kept in a refugee pin, land continuously further stolen by terrorist settlers - Hamas would have slim pickings among recruits and most likely would never have been elected.
This is the one issue that saddens me to hear Sam talk on.
This is NOT about Islam, obviously it’s a factor, but if there was a stronger secular resistance that was more promising I think most people would join that.
To be honest- Can someone tell me if Sam or his guest here say anything at all critical of Israel here? I’ve listened to everything Sam has had to say on this topic, but I haven’t listened to this yet. And I know how he thinks and I don’t think I can bare to listen to it right now - too raw.
I have Israeli friends and have no hate for Israelis or Jews, but the world is idly watching a slaughter of a civilian population. If you buy that these are strategic bombings you just aren’t paying attention.
Sam has said before - that if Israel wanted to commit genocide they would have. That is so obviously shallow reasoning. A) They have always and still talk about their real hopes of ridding both the WB and Gaza of Palestinians - by driving them out.
B) They haven’t done so because if they fear becoming a pariah state.
C)They are coming closer than ever to doing so right in front of our eyes right now.
I couldn’t agree more with you. If this isn’t cognitive dissonance on Sam’s part then I don’t know what is.
"I haven't listened to it yet". Clearly.
Spot on
Israel wants to survive. They want peace with their neighbors, including Palestinians. That is difficult to do when your neighbors want you dead, and have since your nation was recognized by the international community.
@@michaeljames8410 Sam Harris has been obnoxiously holding onto the same stupid views forever. As if listening to one more podcast is going to change anything. He’s a soft spoken bigot who thinks he’s an expert in everything yet doesn’t even know the difference between geopolitics and religion. And the experts he brings on are mostly people who merely confirm Sam’s views.
Thank you Sam. Everybody needs to hear this. Enough with these naive and often hateful “free palestine” people.
So you are pretending to be naive now?
34:46 Sam.. know that I appreciate virtually all of your work.. you’ve just described both the Hamas attack, and the Israeli response… both are vile. Now you’re about to continue on about the IDF dropping leaflets etc and that makes the 9000 dead civilians for 15 neutralized targets ok.. or less uncivilized.. Now I’m not a Jew.. but I wonder if just being a Jew fogs the glasses of even one as revered as yourself.. There is so much nuance that you don’t speak about, no Jewish people do when the information is factual and accessible..
Anyways.. the civilians of both Israel and Palestine have my heart..
The world remembers muslims are terrible.
Sam: “I have…purpose again.”
Yeah, like he's been quiet this entire time, not covering a myriad of other topics 😂
@@dogsandyoga1743 not covering them well, that’s for sure.
@@TigerHogan Debatable. But to act like Sam was sitting around twirling his thumbs and this brought him back to the forefront is fallacious.
He's said him self, over the last decade or so, he's spoken about and against the culture or "wokeism" far more than he's discussed religion.
Disappointed but not surprised about Sam’s view on this. Not unrelated, I truly admire the way Jewish people stick together worldwide, religious or not. Now, I think the most disingenuous think that people like Harris are doing is framing the pushing back on relentless bombing of Palestinian citizens as support for Hamas. This creates a false dichotomy that you are either for Israel (the holy good victims of the world) and Hamas (the entirety of all people in Palestine). This framing is the only way normal people can justify bombing 800 Palestinian babies, mothers, teachers, dancers, etc. to kill a single suspected Hamas member. The attack on Israel was awful and heartbreaking, but that was Hamas that did it, not everyday people living their lives in Palestine. Why do they have to pay for Hamas’ actions. Sam Harris, conflates Muslims with Hamas and Jihad even though 10 year Palestinian kids are at no fault
Most Muslims support Hamas’s goals. Though some disapprove of their methods.
They aren’t doing anything that doesn’t line up with the goals outlined in the Quran.
@@infidelheretic923
That is far from true. Muslims have been the predominant victims of Islamic terrorist groups. Organizations like Hamas give muslims a bad name.
Just like the IDF does for the Jewish community.
800? The death toll in gaza is over 8k now.
@@infidelheretic923 This thinking is the problem. The vast majority of Palestinians have done absolutely nothing to Jews, but are being killed nonetheless
@@infidelheretic923 So what’s your point? Better to kill them all? And their children?
Also, there’s not one religion that doesn’t have something in there that could justify shocking violence. Absolutely Christianity and Judaism do. This is not a uniquely Islamic trait.
Dead child in Gaza every 6 minutes - NY Times, 11/1/2023
I am one of those too afraid to take advantage of the free subscribership. I feel a lot of shame being poor, and I don't want to take advantage of charity. I love what I can get for free, but when it is offered in lieu of money, it cripples my remaining ego.
That's silly, and Sam would tell you to your face not to be ashamed, and encourage you to ask for a subscription. That's why it's there.
I got one, it’s super easy and sam has an employee who gives them out daily to anyone who emails. No reason not to
Your ego is the only thing standing in your way of the subscription. I got the subscription when I was very poor, too. If you wouldn't judge someone for the dollars in their account, don't judge yourself like that. Let it go. Just get that damn thing! Right now! Go!
Keep up the stellar work, Sam.
Cannot listen to Sam anymore after his disgraceful take on the IDF. All claims to objectivity blown away.
ok bot.
@@adirsab because I dissent from being a fanboi? How well reasoned.
@@fabioq6916 because you sounds like a bot. explain "disgraceful take on IDF ''
@@adirsab No. You should have asked before throwing unfounded insults. And if you need to ask, you just haven't looked hard enough at the details.
@@fabioq6916 ok bot
I heard the call they were discussing and I disagree with Graeme’s highly optimistic interpretation of the family’s reaction. They were utterly jubilant. Yes, they wanted the son to come back, but nowhere was there any sense that he’d done something wrong. I can’t believe Wood’s take on that point
Is that in the second half?
I didn’t hear jubilation in that call. I just heard a family wanting their son to come home safely.
Yeah that was a weird take.
Why would settlements be allowed so close to the border? A concert that close? In hindsight so many mistakes and extremely poor judgement.
Yah blame the victims....
Jews want to live in Jerusalem. Muslims claim its their holy land, but why do they pray to the mecca in Saudi Arabia then..?@@Agtsmirnoff
I didn't blame them, but those are legitimate questions.@@Agtsmirnoff
@@Agtsmirnofftry building your shed in someone else's garden and then complain when you get your head kicked
@@JohnGlen502 You're 100% blaming them. Israel isn't a big country you know....
Sam, some of your books have had the most profoundly positive impact on my life.
That said, I'm incredibly disappointed in the lack of transparency in this conversation. The tragic events in Isreal on the 7th and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza that has unfolded since stem from a long history of occupation that violates international humanitarian law.
You are able to speak with such clarity when critiquing religious extremism, yet appear to either not recognize, or ignore it when its right in front of you. You talk at length about how the dehumanization of our fellow human beings creates more suffering, yet do not appear to include Palestinians in that definition.
Human shields or not the civilian death toll is in the tens of thousands already. Roughly four thousand are children. This is not justifiable or proportionate even under the circumstances. Every 1/3 buildings in Gaza have been flattened in 4 weeks. Are we really to believe that every one of those buildings was being used by Hamas? In a small strip of land with of dense population of 2.2 Million? Given the casualties, The burden of proof is on Isreal to prove these are legitimate targets under international law. Furthermore the use of White Phosphorous is also incredibly inhumane and against international law.
Many Palestinian journalists reporting on the ground have themselves been targeted by air strikes. This 4 week period has seen more journalist deaths then any other conflict for the last 30 years, with high UN staff and emergency aid transits all killed in Isreal's indiscriminate bombing campaign. Surely that proves this is not a targeted response that adheres to international law and protects civilians.
20:00 - Nobody on ivy league college campuses are protesting in favour of massacre. These protests have been almost entirely peaceful with few arrests. Many of these protests/marches/demonstrations have been attended by and even organised by Jewish communities who oppose the indiscriminate bombing of the densely populated Gaza strip.
None of this is to minimize or downplay the suffering caused on Oct the 7th, but war crimes committed then do not justify war crimes being committed by hamas or the IDF now.
As someone who has written books on morality which I have found incredibly helpful; I find it disappointment to see your total lack of transparency when considering the crucial context at play here.
"Israeli murderers are called commandos. Arab commandos are called terrorists." - George Carlin
Arab commandos who target men women and kids in their homes, for simply existing?
I'm seriously beginning to question Sam's motive for authoring the book Lying.
And when the IDF guns down children it's called "a clash".
Arab Palestinian commandos have tried to overthrow the king of Jordan among other terrorist actions against other Muslims. George Carlin had his point he was trying to make, but he was wrong.
Why do so many people in comments sections have such a hard on for Carlin quotes lol
God, this is the only guy that can describe the atrocities and horrific imagery, and also use the most ambiguous language. Fcking have some balls and say it how it is, unacceptable
Replace unacceptable for unforgivable
I think he is a little desensitized covering ISIS and Jihad all these years. This sort of violence is kind of familiar to him. But he said the videos were horrific in that these people were just living every day life and suddenly murdered were more disturbing than the staged highly planned video from ISIS.
@@alQarafiIt may as well be demonic because jihadists do not 1. Operate by reason 2. Have empathy 3. Understand even their own actions 4. Care about humanity. All they care about, literally, is slavery slavery and murder
@@alQarafiand not just slavery but sex slavery. That is what jihad is
The difference is Isis recruitment is different, Hamas is the sons of Palestinian parents, they live in the same community. They grew up in Palestinian schools with the indoctrination of hated towards the Jews. Isis were formed in a different way and came from all over the world. The looting was much worse than kids bikes, they had all their jewellery stolen, phones, wallets ect.
If you were truly brave you’d talk about the 750,000 Arabs displaced in 1948. Until you do that you’ve lost my respect. And I say that as someone who listened to your poor audio quality podcasts in 2012
Oh no..the poor Arabs going through something millions of other people went through. Funny you don't even understand the history of how violent the Arabs were in '47-'48 randomly killing Jews who were their neighbours for centuries. Given a choice to stay, a lot left in the hope that the Arab nations would wipe out the Jews and they would return afterwards.
The Arabs who stayed, became Israeli citizens. Those who left are so-called refugees.
700000 Jews were pushed out of Muslim countries between 40s and 60s. Nobody cares. Why? Because Israel welcomed them, a thing that no Arab nation did to the Palestinians
You mean the Arabs that were displaced by the Arab armies who told them to leave and come back as soon as the Jews were exterminated? Yeah.....classic Arab narrative of reversing causality when it doesn't suit your narrative. You attack, you lose, then you act victimized. enough with the BS.
Just as many Jews were displaced from distant Arab nations as well.
The Jews were allowed to resettle and those Arabs weren’t.
Thus leading to the current ongoing crisis.
Saying Gazan people don't like Hamas is simply wrong and misleading
Many do I’m sure. But perhaps not for the right reasons.
Gazan people are 70% terrorists. many of them contribute in the 7/10 events.
Nuts. It's like saying all British like the Tories
Why not talk about open air prisons and self justifying invaders
It has been the same since the crusader. I like listening to 20 year olds now debating the mid east , I only remember blood in the sand in 90'. It has always been this way and will always be that way. What happened to Ukraine?
I mean, why stop with the crusades? What about the muslim conquest of N. Africa, the Middle East and Southern Europe which preceded the crusades? Or the Roman Empire before that? Or the Greek and Persian Empires before that, and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, or the Bronze Age tribal wars before that?
Violent conflict is the human norm. liberal ideals of human rights are relatively new.
Exactly. Just think of Ukrainian Bucha and atrocities committed there by Russians.
Yah these 20 something year olds don’t remember growing up when multiple suicide bombings were a daily news story out of Israel.
Israel is unfortunately a victim of its own success in that regard
The rise of right-wing extremists in one country can give rise to right-wing extremists in another country. It started with America in the Trump's era.
Sam, please do a video podcast. That is all.
A recent poll before Oct 7th by the Washington Institute had shown a majority of Gazans support Hamas
it seems the majority of new settlers who claim the Palestinian land as their own in the West Bank are mostly from either Russian or Ukrainian backgrounds. They're expressing a level of entitlement not afforded them in their home countries - and brining some negative behaviours from their former home culture with them as well. These "new" immigrants appeared in large numbers, are more "right-wing" than their European or "First Exodus" predecessors, and appear to be helping prop-up Netanyahu. After the Abraham Accords (having left out Palestinians) ... the Palestinians had some sympathy from the outside world UNTIL October 7 thanks to Hamas. Nothing excuses Hamas for these atrocities but the entire chain of events makes sense.
Everything appears to you without any facts 60% of Israel’s are not white and are from Middle Eastern countries or never left Israel for thousands of years
It's impossible to reason with the side that doesnt want to other side to exist.
The most common criticisms of politics:
Corruption: Politics is often seen as being corrupt, with politicians and other powerful figures using their positions for personal gain. This can lead to a lack of trust in government and a sense of disillusionment among citizens.
Inefficiency: Government bureaucracies can be slow and inefficient, making it difficult to get things done. This can be frustrating for citizens and businesses alike.
Gridlock: Political polarization can often lead to gridlock, where the two major parties are unable to agree on anything, even on important issues. This can prevent the government from functioning effectively.
Special interests: Critics argue that politicians are too beholden to special interests, such as lobbyists and wealthy donors. This can lead to policies that benefit the wealthy and powerful at the expense of ordinary citizens.
Lack of accountability: Politicians can be difficult to hold accountable for their actions. This can lead to a sense of impunity, where politicians feel like they can do whatever they want without consequences.
It is important to note that not everyone agrees with these criticisms of politics. Some people believe that the political system is working as well as it can and that the benefits of democracy outweigh the costs. However, the criticisms listed above are common among many people, and they reflect a growing sense of dissatisfaction with politics in many countries around the world.
Some of the captured Gazans admitted that they were offered a flat and some money to kill or capture Israelis.
Delete Hamas.
As an Israeli, it's clear to me that Wood talked with only one side of the political isle. Talk to Uri Milstein and you'll have a better understanding of what happened cos- the army was diverted to the west bank- is the shallowest explanation possible and questionable if even true- there is ONE division dedicated to Gaza at all times and many more dedicated to the WB as it is a much larger, more intricate scene.
I was skeptical of his comment, too - the idea that defense was an either/or proposition- either defend the border with Gaza OR assist religious settlers in their annexation efforts in the West Bank. I’m pretty sure the IDF is large enough to handle both tasks.
Currently religion is not even in the top five issues regarding Israel-Palestine. Historically it is important to understand and no one murders babies without a religious impulse, but for the solution we might as well forget about religion. Israel needs security and Palestine needs a future worth having. The religious fundamentalists are indeed a problem, but dealing with them needn't be concerned with religion.
It is concerned with religion. Much of the hatred of Jews and general anti-Israel propaganda is promulgated by religious teachers in mosques and on children's programming. Can you imagine if instead of Disney cartoons, children in the states were brought up watching programs that glorified the killing of America's enemies?
Well said, I’d add to this by saying what is Israel to do when radicals want you eradicated.
I would ask this: if Hamas were to surrender, would this stop?
@@ZINGERS-gt6pc They can either answer in kind as they are doing now and it's mostly justified or they can try to bring the conflict to an end by winning over the palestinian majority that cannot be compared to ISIS like Hamas and similar organizations. The history, trauma, age and education puts the palestinian people at a major disadvantage in being a proactive part of the solution while their "leaders" wish for the opposite so Israel needs to find ways to make peace with them directly. Planning for and explaining in detail a safe and prosperous future and how to achieve is a big part of it.
@ZINGERS-gt6pc so Israel is not eradicating Palestine????
@@fabioq6916nope because they're would have done ages ago, but they settled with borders
Jews will always have a home and friend in India, more than any other country in the world can ever offer.
I believe you confuse human empathy for the suffering of children for antisemitism.
Thank you, Sam! ❤
Lets face it, the more we peasants try to hold our nation together, with some pride and patriotism, with some feeling of identity as to who we are, and where we come from, what was fought for by our fathers and grandfathers, the more we try to feel pride, the more our cowardly leaders give our nation away to others who have no feeling for Great Britain, who don't give a flying frog for it! Who in fact hate the UK, who would shit on our flag and spit on the graves of our valiant fathers who gave their lives for our freedom. Our once great nation is being run by cowards and traitors who care more for Islamists and Islam than their own hereditary and culture. These traitors will easily bow and bend the knee to others who have no right to what our forefathers fought for in 2 world wars, but I ask for what did they fight? It seems for nothing!!! They are turning in their graves!! (Written by a British citizen in the UK
Seems a little off-topic here.
Seriously excellent conversation
Honestly? A little disappointed :( I don't know if it's in the full version of this podcast or if it will be in the next solo podcast but I was hoping for a LOT more on the "moral confusion" you alluded to, Sam.
Christopher hitchens would be ashamed of sams take on this.
Why do you say that?
No he would not. Plus hes not around anymore. We dont know what his opinion would be just as we wont know what orwell or russel would've thought. We can only know what he said in the past, and by that we know he definitely distastes both and would probably say something in the line of theres no solution because parties of god have veto on territory etc. I doubt he would pick a side. Plus what Sam is saying i believe hitch would probably have agreed with, and that is that hamas is not an ethical or rational party meaning they cannot be negotiated with.
@@gerritkruger4014 yes we would. He spoke numerous times on the subject during his lifetime and he appeared often with Edward Said, speaking passionately about the appalling treatment of the Palestinian people "I am an anti-Zionist. I’m one of those people of Jewish descent who believes that Zionism would be a mistake even if there were no Palestinians.” - Hitchens was constant in his condemnation of the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine.
Sam simply doesn't have it within himself to even acknowledge that they are a people who have been brutalised and marginalised over 80 odd years. He conflates hamas with Palestinians (or if he doesn't, he does an appalling job at distingushing the two). Anyone would think he was a Bible basher given his staunch defence of the Israelis. His pro-israel stance is such a contradiction in terms
@SGN30 true
The settler issue is a red herring.
The IDF was in the West Bank because of a dramatic increase of terrorist activity, particularly in Jenin.
This activity was probably coordinated with Hamas, and the settler talking point is a strategic psyop.
I’ve lost so much respect for Sam over this.
Yep, he's dishonest and using it to push his anti-islam agenda
Because apparently you’ve been taken in by very bad arguments in favor of theocrats versus an American ally acting in self defense.
Sam is right about this.
If you care about liberal values you can’t support the made up state of “Palestine” and certainly not Hamas.
nobody cares.
@@adirsab you care enough to reply to my comment ;)
@@lockemclaughlin820 I don't care, I just wanted to let you know that no one cares.
Sam says it’s not a good analogy for Israel and others to say Oct 7th was their 9/11 because “it’s quite a bit worse than what happened to America on 9/11.”, he says.
What can anyone make of such a comment? This isn’t a contest! These shocking and heinous acts aren’t worse for some than others. They’re EQUALLY PAINFUL and unbelievable! What an unintelligent, unthinking comment. Sam just keeps getting weirder.
How did you interpret that comment as Sam implying it’s a “contest”?
@@benedictdonald4338Lack of charity and poor comprehension skills combined with an already antagonistic and perhaps emotional response to Sam’s arguments and/or sam himself.
As someone who personally witnessed 9/11 in NYC physically with eyes on, I personally witnessed the horror. I understand where your coming from and understand why you feel the way you do, and I’m not necessarily agreeing with Sam. I just think his intention was to say that this was “Israel’s 9/11.” Of course Sam is openly biased and I usually disagree with him more than I agree with him, because he usually simplifies complex issues and ignores the nuances of them. That’s the feeling I got when I heard him say that, but of course I could be wrong. I think one of Sam’s biggest weaknesses is he lets his emotions cloud the facts of the topics he’s discussing, and almost never admits when he’s incorrect.
Good discussion of the rationalisation of violence through theology and religion. Thanks for covering Hamas' attacks on Israeli civilians.
Hey Sam you should talk to destiny at some point. I think it would be an interesting conversation.
Why is Sam lacking so much empathy? What is his mindfulness for, if not to understand hardship and forgive.
Why does he hate so much? He’s really been turning away from what I first liked about him…his logic and mindfulness.
MORE War is not the answer.
thank you for speaking what i have in mind , i feel deeply betrayed . to what extent he can be completly blind and skip the thousands of deaths and bombing and cutting food and water right after .
Hate would be the last choice if words to use here buddy
Pacifism doesn't bring peace. One of the great lessons of History.
He is Jewish so…
14:10 - No isaeli jew says that they "go back" to maroco. They can't, they have no right to live there, even if the thought that their lives will be better there.
Some israeli jews can migrate to Europe or even north America. Most of them are "stuck" in israel and will never leave the area "from the river to the sea".
The Infernal Logic of Sam Harris: More Cultural Essentialism Masquerading as Rationality
Graeme: "The approval rate of Hamas is very, very low. Gazans in general do not like Hamas."
Sam: "Hmm."
Why do points like this not stick out more to Sam? I'm astonished every time I hear him speak on Palestine/Islam/the Middle East, because he is so unwilling to think seriously about the difference between your average Palestinian/Arab and the Islamist radical groups that operate in their regions. He tries to square this circle by saying that low approval for Hamas as a governing body does not rule out approval for 10/7, but the majority of Gazans polled expressed disapproval of Hamas breaking the ceasefire that was in place until 10/7.
Sam continues to resort to cultural essentialism instead of a real analysis of causes and effects. This leads him to reach jaw-droppingly moronic conclusions such as the body count not mattering as much as the brutality of the individual killings. How does this calculation work? How many "humane" massacres does it take to equal the brutal and spectacular ones? How is being shredded to pieces by frags and mortars or crushed to death by collapsing buildings not also a brutal and horrific way to die?
At what point does collateral damage simply become indiscriminate killing and collective punishment? Surely, there must be a limit. We have hostage negotiators because it is unacceptable to shoot through civilians to get to their captors. Innocent lives being held as hostages or human shields by Hamas are not made any less innocent by the brutality of Hamas--unless you racially/culturally/nationally essentialize them all as "human animals" and "beasts" or "Amalek," which are the genocidal terms uttered by Israeli officials against all Palestinians.
Sam loves to use the term "moral equivalence" but it is his moral reasoning capabilities that are equivocal and embarrassing.
They voted for Hamas, and knew what they were voting for.
@@JohnGlen502 specious comment I've seen hundreds of times over the last 3+ weeks.
Hamas won that nearly 20 year old election with a smaller margin than Trump in 2016 and with support from the Netanyahu government. 44% for Hamas, 42% for Fatah, the moderate alternative. 50% of the population in Gaza wasn’t even old enough to vote.
Politics in Gaza is fractured in very similar ways to the US and UK, but no one would think that all Americans deserve reprisal for something Trump did because “they voted him in.” And the point here isn't Trump: the same point stands with any US president who wins by 1% point give or take (which is nearly all of them). It is nonsensical to say "they voted" him in so surely the entire US population is behind him, has the same views, and deserves whatever they get for having voted that way. Interesting how such obviously shoddy logic seems feasible when applied to Arabs.
The ability to make such sweeping generalizations about Gazans, enough to condemn them to eradication with an “oh well” is sadly reflective of our ignorance of Middle East culture and history and willingness to dehumanize populations we have no connections with or who are geopolitically inconvenient.
I wish I could give you more than one like. I like Sam Harris a lot, but hearing him describe free Palestine protesters as being somehow in favour of the atrocities committed by Hamas and hearing him egging the guest on “but there were some ordinary Palestinians amongst them, right? Right?” reminds me that this is the point where Sam’s objectivism ends and his ideology begins.
@@theepiphany3560 yes, point blank. It's astonishing hearing someone who is really good at modelling rational thinking when discussing other topics be so obviously irrational on this topic. And I suppose it's easily attributed to his New Atheist ideology which tends to focus on Islam while making excuses for Christianity and Judaism because "The West." I have no problem applying my critique of fundamentalism equally to all three of the Abrahamic religions and taking unfolding current events on a case-by-case and historically informed basis rather than always reactively going back to a good guys vs. bad guys narrative.
Because their approval rating was low due to people of Gaza believing they were corrupt and more at governing/proving service, not because Palestinians viewed them as too extreme. Their desire to exterminate Israel is and generally always has been quite popular.
Removing comments is disgusting and absurd. You claim to be for western values and freedom, you should be ashamed.
ok bot.
Thank you, Sam!
Sam still warmongering like crazy.
thank you sam
I grew up as an evangelical Christian. I feel like the great danger of their belief system is being overlooked here. They are supporting so much of this trouble.
They are religious extremists and bloodthirsty fascists on both sides.
Podcast starts at 3:35
Actually it starts at 0:52 guys
Don't skip the house keeping and introduction bro wtf
Housekeeping is the best part. Aside from the music lol
There’s no doubt that foreign policy led to these events and both sides are wrong for their actions imo. Israel doesn’t have any advanced military personnel that could target the actual people responsible? We can’t just sit back and watch this and think this is ok or normal in any world, our tax dollars heavily fund Israel. You’re telling me Israel had no choice but to cut off all resources to Gaza and carpet bomb it, heavily targeting medical sites, refugee camps, civilian infrastructure etc? I don’t buy the human shield argument, we wouldn’t bomb any major western city or state in order to catch the same people our foreign policies help to create. Anyone would be a lot more likely to become an extremist if they’re constantly witnessing entire families being blown away, living in a nightmare.
The casualties are entirely in line with modern urban warfare "carpet bombing" has not occured. Your blame the victim mentality is morally repugnant.
@@joelanderson5285 What you’re saying is 100% propaganda and completely false. Look at the civilian casualties during the 2 years Russia invaded Ukraine, an actual country that has an army and can defend itself vs civilian casualties in Gaza over the past couple of months. It’s far more accelerated, due to population density probably but that doesn’t really matter because they’re killing mostly women and children. Even Israel’s own citizens are appalled by the conduct of their leadership, I’m pretty sure the IDF just killed a few Israeli hostages while they were holding a white flag. Completely in line with urban warfare crimes.
@@davekrebo7180 You didn't address my argument.
@@joelanderson5285 not sure if my comment was deleted or if youtube is glitching. What argument? That you’re okay with woman and children being killed by the thousands and IDF writing U.S. citizens names on the bombs?
After watching Sam on other podcasts which has a mixed audience in the comments and I see some people unfairly insulting him, I love comming back to the main channel and seeing everyone love and support him 😂
Sadly, this issue has been Sam's intellectual achilles heel his entire career. Somehow when it comes to Muslims he just loses his brain and takes a position to the right of most even right wingers.
When he _still_ chooses to focus on Jihad, in the middle of a Muslim genocide, it's hard to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Also Covid & Trump. "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." Winston Churchill
is sam watching any of the journalists accounts on the ground in gaza? don't you dare quote chomsky Sam. You are 1 billionth of the thinker he is. he has one million times the heart and a thousand times the head.
One thing I don't see in the comments is an acknowledgement that Israel has given evacuation notices before attacks that appear to not be heeded? When this started, on October 7th, I heard or read that Hamas was provoking Israel into retaliation, and then they would keep their citizens in place so that when Israel attacked, there would be many innocent civilians killed. This would create sympathy for their cause and anger at Israel. That seems to be unfolding.
The IRA also gave warnings before they carried out a terrorist attack.