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What I especially love about Zagreus as a character is that he has every reason in the world to be an edgy teenage douchebag but he's actually very kind, polite and respectful to everybody except his dad.
I like talking to Hades last of the bunch for that reason. It‘s a bunch of pleasant conversations and then „fuck you, dad“ which is kind of funny. You know; until you progress the game enough.
"Kind, polite, and respectful to everyone except his dad." And Theseus. First time I fought him I thought "Yeah, f*ck this guy." I was weak for a good couple minutes one run when Zagreus greeted them with "Asterius. Other guy."
@@curtishammer748 The respect Zagreus has for Asterius and contempt that he has for Theseus makes me lose my mind everytime I beat Asterius and he congratulates me while Theseus screams bloody murder.
Especially ironic since Hades has made it a point to stay away from the rest of the pantheon and out of their business because he hates getting involved in their drama, which points to them trying to screw over Hades because they're bored of harassing each other.
A thing worth mentioning is as far as interpretations of Greek mythology go this one actually kinda slaps. Gods are fickle and stubborn, heroes are hideously flawed (especially Theseus, as is appropriate), the gods have creative personalities, but not nonsensical onses and it feels like the creators know more about Greece than just having watched Disney's Hercules and 300 one Saturday evening which is pretty nice.
Fucking love that after you fight Charon the first time, everyone you talk to is like "what? why the fuck would you do that?" Like the lounge is a small town bar and everyone knows everyone and you just started shit with Old Man Dougherty up on the hill. It feels cozy and real. Supergiant just gets better and better with their character writing.
This is the exact same as Kid Icarus uprising which is a pretty much forgotten 3DS games but it is unbelievably well written in the way it portrays the gods
@@AlphaOblivion7 I sadly could never finish KIU, the controls were just too much for me and I dropped it, my ds felt too small and I was losing combos and levels left and right so I just said fuck it, but what little I did play I do agree!
Hades did itself a huge favor by progressing the story or interactions with characters progressively with dying so when you inevitably die, it doesn't feel as punishing. Along with making the runs even to completion relatively short, I think they have a winning formula.
@@westy1637 Ironically, that's the only problem I had with it. After enough runs you start seeing them as a chore to hear the next story beats at the house. Especially after the first ending, when you no longer have much story driven motivation to actually beat the run. That said, it took me dozens of runs to get to that point, the character/weapon/prophecy progression covers for it pretty well, and ultimately I agree it makes failing a run much less like a punishment. I can easily see myself coming back from time to time.
@@sm901ftw Yeah, I'm finding my current "story goal" of raising my relationships with the Olympic gods to be kind of tiring. I'm throwing bottles of Nectar and Ambrosia at everyone I see and it's still taking forever.
It also worked in the development. The story evolved alongside the game, and the characters reacted to that (all the jokes about there being no further content due to "ongoing Underworld renovations"). Like they did to everything else. That is what added to the satisfying Early Access experience.
You know a game is well worth playing when Yahtzee's final conclusion is practically "It does exactly what it set out to do & the narrative focus meshes well with the core gameplay loop".
@@noonenowhere877 slight spoilers: nope but he does end up inviting all the ones that show up to a dinner party(context makes this a lot more important an event)
Jocose Sonata I’d prefer the same art style but on the other hand, I wouldn’t mind seeing different art styles. I imagine that it’d look similar to Rayman rule 34, which exists because clearly nothing is sacred.
I don't know if the Greeks did this but the Romans had dozens of minor gods/goddesses like a goddess of doorways or houseplants. They wouldn't build huge temples to them like the major gods but would still be prayed to by the subset of people who cared about the things in their limited domain.
Well at least, Supergiant took a lot of time to make Hades because they wanted to avoid unnecessary and mandatory crunch time. This company really seems like an awesome place to work in.
@@SophiaAstatine that's fair, but it's also important to display that as consumers we do value these traits. Because if we don't praise those who get it right, those who get it wrong think they can get away with it. So yeah, don't put them on a pedestal, but at least say well done and point them to the vending machine with the best snacks.
@@bye1551 Of course. Point is only that some companies can look awesome to us on the outside, yet severely underappreciate and underpay their staff on the inside. Feeding off fan passion to recruit people despite the conditions.
@@SophiaAstatine that's understandable, I misinterpreted your point, I understand now and fully agree with that. I hope supergiant games is as squeaky clean on the inside as they appear on the outside, but I suppose time will tell.
The irony is, you see yourself as such a savvy fan of Zero Punctuation that you can translate his stance to the less educated masses, when in reality, the reason it’s so rare for Yahtzee to definitively state his stances is that he believes in the power of complex opinions. The sort of thing that could not possibly be conveyed with a numerical score, and certainly not with a simple thumbs up or thumbs down.
Modern mythology is a thing, and it's been around for years: it's called "urban legends". They don't tend to survive for very long these days when we don't paint them on vases anymore, though.
Granted I assume that's mostly because we think of urban legends as less of a full on religion and more as just some weird monster stories. Though a game where the villains are various folklore monsters from contemporary America like Mothman and the Jersey Devil sounds cool
I've also heard people call Folk Heroes and superheroes the kind of modern mythology, Tale Foundry has a good video on folk heroes and the other one I don't remember where I got it from.
I know we're all partially kidding here, but Greek mythology has the advantage of being recognizable to the audience. At this point the Greek Pantheon is basically a bunch of tropes. Using lesser-known mythologies is a disadvantage unless it's a compelling story experience that takes its time with characterization. Basically until some storytellers in various mediums decide to take up zoroastrianism and it becomes something a lot of people collectively sort of know about, using it is going to be seen as a financial risk in most mediums, especially games. And no I'm not very fun at parties 😂
1:05 one of the main reasons why there are so much stuff about Greek mythology in particular that I'm aware of is that unlike most mythologies the Greeks were big nerds that wrote E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G so we had masses of text about them including their gods. So for most other mythologies, it's not like they aren't telling you as many stories as they are from the Greek, they simply don't have as much text and the little they have is filtered by decades of Christian monks mixing up with their religion.
@@macmcskullface1004 Yeah but those aren't the same brand of "mythology" considering they are still religion for some people. Not only you have to be careful not to step on people's toes when working with them, there's some extra mystical spice when working with ancient extinct mythos. So you can see why the Greeks are still more popular in media.
After reading about the history of Medusa (her original story was not a woman cursed by Athena due to being raped by Posiedon. In fact, her head adorning doors existed long before Perseus was even created to make up an explanation.) we can also thank The Romans poets for making Greek mythology as we mostly know it (Medusa as a human was created by the Romans. In the original Greek, she was always a gorgon, but had the weakness for some unexplained reason for being mortal.)
I think the big issue with covering a lot of "mythologies" is that a lot of people from other cultures still actively practice them as religions. Zorastrianism, the one you brought up, is a perfect example of this. It's one of the oldest religions still practiced in the modern day, rivalled only by Hinduism. It predates and inspired many cultural practices within Abrahamic faiths, especially Judaism and Islam and many Zorastrians find themselves persecuted in states that have banned their religion as paganism. They have been historically subjugated, but they have also been the primary faith of an empire, Persia, that has subjugated as well. If some American indie game developer were to adapt Zorastrian faith into a video game it carries thousands of years of baggage that still effect people alive today AND runs the risk of having glaring inaccuracies spotted and offending relevant parties. Greek mythos, or as practitioners in the modern day sometimes call it in English, Hellenism, runs that risk far less because 1. It's stories have worked themselves into a multilingual classical literary canon that exists in an unspoken "theological public domain" recognized within academic amd creative communities near universally. 2. The actual number of modern practitioners and believers is so small that some are unaware it is a practiced faith in the modern era. And 3. A significant percentage of practitioners observe the faith for the sake of cultural, linguistic and theological preservation rather than a literal belief. Now, while Zorastrianism also leaves in the faith room for skepticism and disbelief, suggesting Zorastrian faith as a basis for FICTION is it's own problem outside resisting religious baggage. The same I said of Hellenism can be said of many other faiths often covered in media: Norse mythos, Celtic Polytheism, various Indigenous polytheisms, neo-paganism etc. Practice of these faiths are, for many people, an act of preservation and an active rejection of colonial faiths in their native countries. Thereby, less literal depictions of them cross into a realm of acceptability not seen in other faiths. So, if you wanted to adapt a widely practiced faith into a work of fiction it would have to be sensitively handled, have far more research put in, pass a professional sensitivity reading and even then some people are going to hate it based simply on the nature of an actively practiced faith being at the centre of it. EDIT: Also, rhetorical? No such thing when you accidentally hit my special interests.
Counterpoint: People are so thin-skinned nowadays that no matter what you do you'll offend some group or other. So there's really no reason not to make a game about whatever mythology you want. If people of the Zoroastrianism faith don't like the game you've made that was based off their mythology, fuck 'em.
@@TheKrossRoads Counterpoint: the issue is less the zorastrian faith and more about marketing stats. Think of it this way. Let's say you're an indie studio. You have a choice basic ol' classical greek mythology over here and zorastrianism over there. Greek mythology is, as I say, basic. No one cares except maybe a few people who are just plain disinterested in mythos at all. Okay. You cut off a small portion of your potential audience that is disinterested. After that, a small portion of your potential audience that just prefers AAA games to indie. Then you have people who aren't interested in the rogue-like genre, they fall off. Then you have rogue-like purists not interested in the rogue-lite / rogue legacy subgenre because purists. Then you are left with what remains as your potential audience. Then you have zorastrianism as your option. Take off all those same demographics, PLUS anyone who is zorastrian and cares about the above academic analysis of the issue (because obviously not all zorastrians will care. No group is a monolith.) But then you also shave off anyone with in interest in theological issues in general. Then you probably cut out a lot of wacky christians - not all christians. Just the wacky ones. No group is a monolith - who claim zorastrian imagery is satanic (because american media has falsely co-opted multiple religious images in the past from zorastrianism to represent demons such symbols have nothing to do with.) Then you shave off anyone who looks at this and goes "zorastrianism? Wtf is that? Wish they did [insert popular mythos here]. Don't care; not gonna buy it." And you are also missing out on a huge audience that might have played your game JUST for the greek mythos, because, let's be real, mythology nerds are thirsty for content always. And, by the end, you have shaved more fractions off and missed out on more demographics than if you had just gone with Greek Mythos. And so, you see, it's not so much JUST an issue of the philisophical and academic problems raised but also basic arithmetic rooted in those problems. There are just way more advantages to not adapting it and faiths like it than there are to adapting it for the sake of itself. When you are an independant studio with a more limited scope and budget, these factors apply doubly so. That's just the world we live in. Thems the breaks. You have to take people and their feelings into account or they won't buy what you're selling...literally. That's almost the entire point of a PR or marketing team.
Zoroastrian mythology isn't the same as the Zoroastrian religion. You can make a game about St. George killing the dragon and not make it about Christian catechism. Zoroastrian mythology is Persian mythology. It has been retold, rewritten, and adapted for other media for thousands of years. The Prince of Persia games already adapted parts of it. So did StarCraft II actually (in that case it was more a reference). And nobody lost their minds.
Odds are nobody would mind. Or nobody that matters, anyway. I mean, look at what Shin Megami Tensei gets away with. You literally kill YHWH in like half the games. And it has gods and demons from many, many popular religions.
@@mickymcbryan4814 How many of those fractions actually play lots of video games? How many "wacky Christians" actually purchase titles that aren't specially things like bible games? How many people are REALLY turned off because you made a game about a mythology they don't know much about? The answer to all those is "probably not enough to be concerned about even if added together". Chances are if you're making a game about something like this, you're an indie developer. And if you're an indie developer, the measure of success is much lower than a AAA effort. I'd be willing to bet that you'd be able to reach the threshold for success even by alienating ALL of those fractions you mentioned. As long as your game has great gameplay, and uses the mythology to tell an interesting story, you'll be fine.
Hades is a roguelike that wants you to win, whereas other RL's like Spelunky just want you to fail but have fun doing so. Imo, Hades is so easy to pick up and is just as enjoyable in shorter jaunts as it is in longer sessions. Add to that the fact that today's industry standard is to spread the smallest amount of sauce across the absolute largest amount of empty calorie dough and this game is suddenly a refreshing reprieve from the grindy slogs of the AAA market. Is it perfect? Of course not, entropy decays all, but for the time being I've found myself spending a lot of time with the game in lieu of the bigger budget titles, which says something about its quality at the very least.
If I had to choose between the two I'd choose Hades. There is no plot in Spelunky and the game obsesses over finding ways to make you fail that it doesn't reward you in any way for succeeding. You just have to enjoy overcoming the odds for it to reward you while Hades actually offers a reward.
i second this. i was playing rdr2, switched to hades and haven’t put it down yet. it’s fun. i wasn’t having fun playing rdr2, i’m having fun with hades
The big upsides of Greek and Norse mythology: they're quintessentially European, and well-and-truly dead. This basically means that developers can do whatever they want without risking getting blasted for cultural insensitivity. Religions which are 1) alive, and 2) not white, pose a much greater risk to developers. Celtic/gaelic Myth could theoretically fall into a similar bucket, but has the issues that 1) nobody can pronounce the names, and 2) there's still sensitivity there due to the centuries-long persecution and suppression of gaelic cultures in France and the British Isles. Beyond which, half the point of using real mythology is to leverage the familiar characters and concepts for drama, which doesn't work as well when nobody's actually familiar with the characters to start with.
@@macmcskullface1004 Being Polish didn't save CDPR from being criticized for not including enough black characters in a game set in medieval northern Europe.
@@macmcskullface1004 They absolutely could use potentially sensitive sources, but why would they? The benefits for getting it right are few, the negatives for messing it up are many, and needing to change your depiction of a character or narrative because some might take offense is significant. The simple fact that it requires caution is a disincentive by itself. You are right that there are many other cultures which could potentially serve as safe myth-fodder. Slavic, Baltic and Finnic mythologies are probably safe, they just still have the issue that nobody who isn't a history nerd knows about them, so the developers can't lean on those widespread preconceptions which are half the reason for using actual mythology in a story. (This is really the bigger deal, IMO, because Ancient Egyptian myth is popular for adaption, so is Japanese myth, or even Chinese! Though that is risky if you want to actually sell your game *in* China.)
@@macmcskullface1004 you're talking about social benefits. I'm talking about benefits for the developers, and of those, the only applicable one is that it's novel and potentially able to draw additional interest. That aspect, the novel element, is a fairly powerful draw, particularly for indie studios, but the issue that they will always face is the extra responsibility that comes with tackling potentially sensitive material. That is a burden, no matter how you frame it, and therefore people will tend to avoid that responsibility. And all those wonderful social benefits? Those are amazing for the audience, and can greatly benefit society and awareness of the relevant cultures. But they're extra work for the developer. If you make a game about the Norse gods, you can play with the characterisation without fear. But if you're the first person in the world to make a game about Korean Shamanism, you basically have a duty to play it straight, because the changes you made to the themes and characterisation in the myth will cement themselves as many people's idea of what that is like. The group which goes on to do additional research and find out more and learn those inaccuracies is tiny. As I said though, the biggest part is simply *why* people use mythology (or other pseudo-mythical tropes like Elves and Dwarves and such) in the first place. They are tools, creative shortcuts that allow designers to convey character and theme without needing to actually show it or cover in detail. This use absolutely relies on common knowledge in the audience about the characters and tropes therein. If Loki shows up in Norse myth, everyone basically knows his deal, it doesn't need to be explained. If this was Coyote in an American mid-west mythos? You're going to have to actually set the character up from scratch, at which point you could have just as easily done a wholly original character. Regardless, I don't see this debate going anywhere productive at this point, so have a good day, I do enjoy talking with reasonably polite sorts on the internet even if we can't come to an agreement. :)
Except that in this game Athena and Eurydice are black and Dionysus is South Asian. Supergiant have been very clear that they drew inspiration directly from the original Greek stories, rather than other media made about those stories. And that since the gods that the ancient Greeks worshipped originated from across the greater Mediterranean region and (y'know) they're GODS, they didn't feel obliged to make characters that passed as white.
0:48 - "Is there any reason we can't make up mythology? Like if I wanted to invent Maurice the god of consumer electronics..." Ya know, that was the basic premise of American Gods, right?
I mean, there's also Japanese Mythology games like Okami, there's a Chinese mythology game based on Sun Wu Kong coming out at some point, Asura's wrath is... Loosely based on Indian mythology, and if you want a lil bit of everything, there's Shin Megami Tensei or Fate
I find the fact that Indian mythology was as bananas as Asura's Wrath or even more so to be utterly hillarious, truth be told. Ah, what a sadly forgotten game. It had many faults but it was something different and enjoyable.
I've watched the series long enough that I knew he'd devote at least thirty seconds of the review to pointing out how Greek Mythology is old hat as far a source materials go.
I've watched long enough to know that if he goes on for the first thirty seconds talking about something other than the game than that means he likes it and doesn't have enough to complain about.
At least they touched on a rather interesting part of Greek Mythology. Zagreus is a very old god who got syncretized with Dionysus and incorporated in the Orphic Mysteries. Why he's there as well as Dionysus is a bit of a mystery to me though as someone who's studied the Mysteries.
@@jquickri counterpoint: He'll also put off the review if the game is so boring and samey it's not worth talking about. Like how he spent the first part of his Division 2 video talking about another game.
Sterling's game critique is atrocious, though, unlike his publisher scandals coverage. Not sure why would you pay attention to what he thinks about games.
I really believe that this game has a very well made "arcady" feel, in that it does have option for skill, and it does get very hard at high heats with different weapons. I think if you do put the extra hours in and get the feel of how the game works, after the whole huge stoy ends, you are left with a very interesting, very fast-paced advanced arcade to keep playing and 205 hrs in, my heart still rushes every single time I fight Hades. My personal game of the decade :)
“Hey Yahtzee, we need you to plug our premium membership.” “Can I do it in a very dismissive, passive aggressive fashion?” “Absolutely, we would expect nothing else!” :)
"Do I need to paint it on a vase and bury it for a thousand years?" No, you just need to be a fantastic con artist like L. Ron Hubbard or Joseph Smith.
@@GeorgeNoiseless The game tells you in multiple places how many runs you've done. On the save select screen, in that little blue seeing pool you can buy for your room, and in the records room.
@@fuzzyterror2866 Thank you for the heads up, but I must admit to my shame that I knew how to check, but was too lazy to fire up the game at that moment to actually do so. I've gone and checked now -- it's 55 runs over 71 hours,
I feel like a side benefit of the power progression in Hades is that it underscores the point they're trying to make about how Hades himself has chosen a stupid hill to die on and is fighting the inevitable. Sure it's challenging, and can remain challenging for a good long while, but that's mostly through extra challenges and taking risks to speed up the metaprogression and get resources to advance the character arcs, not because it's hard to just get to the end after you've gotten some solid upgrades. Accessability is probably the bigger reason but it works from a narrative perspective too.
That's kind of overused as well and now it's tainted by Lovecraft's racism even though everyone that uses Lovecraft's work always omits that part from the mythology.
@@OdaSwifteye You're speaking as if people don't use ANY mythology and omit the problematic parts. Let's not forget how often Zeus is NOT portrayed as willing to force himself on anything with a womb... including his own family.
@@OdaSwifteye Ah yes because Lovecraft was edgy young lad who was raised by hardcore Christans, let's forget the fact that he married a Jewish wife and wrote mutiple books at the later stage of his life accepting of people with different skin color than him.
Hades does contain veiled references to several other mythologies, it's subtle, & a relatively late game, but each is accompanied by fascinating, brilliantly acted dialogue. One of my favourite things about the game, the way such small details vastly expand the scope of the story!
The way this game incorporates gameplay elements into the story is masterful and the story itself? After 60 attempts in hell mode for my first experience with this game? Truely moving. And i will make sure i endure as many times as it takes for the true ending CUS ZAGS A GOOD LAD AND DESERVES SOME FUCKIN LOVE M8!
There are both ups and downs to the fact that your religion is still practiced for people using it in games and stuff, makes gathering research easier I guess but also means there are people you should be respectful and not to misrepresent them. Though personally I think people should still be respectful of mythologies like Greek and Norse where a lot of the context was lost due to the living religion surrounding them dying out
I felt the same about Oxygen Not Included, another game off of the early access grill (they share some similar elements too). But I have a feeling Yahtzee wouldn't like either game.
I got bored by about 50, it depends on your tolerance for these sort of things. I'm still going at it every now and then for a run or so, but just or the story and character side of things. Getting some good upgrades can make the combat fun, but if you've been left weak even Asphodel can be a drag, let alone Elysium.
he has a deadline, and it's still just another roguelike good story and gameplay integration, but a roguelike nonetheless and he hit roguelike fatigue awhile back(give it time and maybe that'll wear off, has with past genera fatigues)
I understand where you're coming from, since you need to beat the game in like a week and whatever makes the ending come sooner is what you must do. I take breaks from playing Hades, and whenever I come back I feel like I've made progress. I'm even deliberately not trying too hard to beat it because I want to see all of the possible interactions before completing my first run. That being said, I am a massive SuperGiant Games fanboy.
Perfectly encapsulates my views of supergiant games. Amazingly designed, gorgeous art, story, and voices, buy every single one, brag to my friends... and yet so far Ive never super enjoyed one. I enjoy playing them WHILE Im playing them, but I rarely feel like “oh boy I wanna play Pyre today!”
4:25 worth remembering that each weapon also has 4 different variations now. Some are very different to the base versions with entirely different move sets etc. I’ve got about 45 runs completed now and haven’t unlocked half the weapon forms and have barely touched two of the base weapons - part of the fun is pushing yourself through the end game difficulty modifiers (heat levels) whilst you can also disable them all and just enjoy creating an obscenely powerful combination of boons that you wipe the floor with previously tricky enemies. All of this with continued story elements that tie in with gameplay. Well deserved of game of the year.
Disagree on the Pyre take. It DEFINITELY takes the most getting used to, but once you get the hang of it and pump it up to the difficulty higher than normal, its fantastic. I'd go a step further and disagree with the "they aren't as good to play". Each one is layered and well done.
Eventually you get so high on the escalator you can really limit the randomness a lot. Between the item that lets you change the next room and the keepsakes that guarantee who your next boon comes from (which you can switch in between floors, so you can do that three times a run), you can basically decided what upgrades you're going to go for before you even start the run. After a certain point, you should basically be able to beat every run, barring some really atrocious luck.
Tbh talking to the characters is a huge motivator for me. I smile every time I run into one of the random characters in a run (Bouldy, the nymph, gay Eeyore, and Than... especially Than, since I get a kick out of how that character encounter works mechanically, too). Even when I'm having a horrible run I still try to push as far as I can in the hopes that I'll run into one of them before I die.
Regarding the boatload of contextual voice lines: I'm streaming an older version of Hades these days (v.022141, the first one that contained the final boss) and they even made contextual voice lines for stuff that changed from the last update, which implies they won't be in the final game. Zagreus and Skelly have a conversation about the big main entrance door suddenly having been redesigned in that one. Also the dialogue about trophies seemed to use "this is new since last time" phrasings that I wouldn't expect to find the same way in v1.0. Haven't confirmed yet, since I haven't actually played v1.0 ;)
Yeah they did that a few times with different updates. I loved it, you could really tell they're enjoying the heck out of interacting with their playerbase before release.
I know Yahtzee's entire shtick is amplifying every negative, but i love the combat in this game. Some boon combinations are fucking busted, especially the ones from Daedalus. I've done 27 runs and I still can't wait to do the next one. Don't sleep on this game. It's top notch. Super addictive combat, beautiful art style, and a great story with fun characters that doesnt take itself too seriously.
Agreed; the combat in this game is a joy to play. I don't quite understand Yahtzee's attempt to make it seem even slightly negative; each weapon has a unique feel and playstyle and by the time those aren't enough, you'll start unlocking weapon Aspects.
But the combinations being busted thing can be just as much a negative as a positive. I'm on 7 clears (on hell mode) right now and the only thing keeping me from plowing through a few more is I've found reliable combinations for each weapon that just take all the challenge out of what is still a 25+ minute run no matter how fast you're clearing. I guess you could crank the heat up past the current gauge or run worse synergies just for variety's sake, but even then, most of the increased challenge is from increased sponginess and you're back to the potato salad criticism.
@@abasdarhon He's on a time constraint, so he doesn't have the same time and leisure to experiment and take it easy, which probably impacts his experience. Kind of like the observer effect, its a reviewer effect. The act of reviewing the game changes how the game is perceived.
Yahtzee brings up a good point about there being more ancient civilizations and mythologies that would be really cool to play in. I'd love to play a game set in Mesopotamia
1:10 well it was kind of a religious in my country Iran long time ago. it isn't that complex. we worshiped Ahoora mazda and and we believed that fire is the purifier for every sin so we have thrown many people into fire , if they managed to come out alive it makes them innocent, there is even a great story about it in my culture from Ferdosi's Shahname named Siavash in flames that you should check out . Shahname is full of potential but no one use it for no god damn reason.
@@Nanook128 Isn't Ark Survival kinda scientology themed? In the way there's people fighting dinosaurs with guns? I, uhm, don't know what scientology actually is.
Even as someone who is not a fan of most rogue-likes, I think this game is fantastic. I was especially blown away on how much Supergiant Games did their research on the mythology. There are nods and references referring to especially obscure tales.
I think "God Mode" is probably one of the best Assist Modes I have seen in a game. It doesn't automatically start you out at being this invincible force but gives you 20% more damage resistance, and then every death gives you 2% more up until the 80% max. It gives players who aren't good at roguelites the ability to get into the game while at the same time not making the game a complete steamroll. Other then a mark on a completion of a run it doesn't lock you out of anything either.
Hades just came out on Game Pass today for those viewing this in the future and I really regret not giving it a try till now because it’s really great. The combat is fun and he wasn’t kidding about those contextual dialogue options. The fact that roguelites and roguelikes tend to be plot-light as well usually turn me away from them but its gratifying to see the game evolve as I play it
Having finally bought Hades, I can actually confirm that chance plays a big part on your success, especially Athena's deflection boons, they're OP, since you can even deflect the bosses attacks. If you have a handful of good boons early on and upgrade them to death, you can be nearly unstoppable by the end. **Small spoiler here** You also need luck to get an early Minotaur fight in Elysium (I'm still struggling fighting Theseus and the Minotaur together). I got it once when I first got there, but since I was unprepared against the new foes there, I didn't last long against him. Now I can't seem to fight him alone again. Otherwise, really loving the game, and I like the fact that the more you suck (erm... I mean... die), the more upgrades and story they reward you with. I'm worried by the end Hades will be so exasperated by my failed attempts he will escort me himself...
As someone a year in the future who only just found this channel. I stopped using Athena's deflection boons early on in my runs because I found other boons I felt were better. Which I feel goes against the idea that chance plays a big part in the sense you said. The chance to find the boons you like for sure, but most boons are viable. Just depends on your playstyle. I actively avoid Athena, the goddess you say is op, because I find her underwhelming lol. This game just has so much room for different styles that it leaves some feeling like their own style is the best style.
@@CyanSorrow Athena is nice to pick up, but for me I just love a spammy, mashy play style, so instead of Athena I beeline Poseidon and Hermes. Gimme dat splash dash. Gimme all of dem splash dashes.
@@JJ-qo7th Poseidon is a ton of fun and can wreck, but my favorite is Zeus. I love dashing around groups with all the lightning strikes lol. You can melt things like crazy with a good Zeus dash build and it's so fun for me.
@@CyanSorrow For me it's largely the fact that splash dash has a timing to it such that if you dash attack, the splash at the end will push the target away so you can dash attack into them again. On top of that, Poseidon just...has amazing internal synergies for pretty much all of his boons. No small amount of it is the fact that Poseidon is the Cool Uncle. I can easily picture him being the kind of uncle who'll "accidentally" leave the liquor cabinet unlocked as long as he's in the same house, and will just let you learn a life lesson instead of telling your mother that he caught you slipping some out of one of the bottles.
I 100% second every word. About 20h in I reached a point where I could breeze thru all but the last 2 boss fights and it becomes sooooo tedious. When I learned that you don't even roll credits after your first clear I lost all interest and watched the story conclusion on yt. This would be one of my all time faves if it wasn't a roguelike lol
Supergiant Games : "Exploring the dichotomy between movies you think are good and the type of movies that you actually watch." Can't say I disagree though. There's a tone of games that I find a lot more interesting to learn about than to actually play. I'm sure there's a long German word for that.
"Is there anything preventing you from creating new mythology?" Tumblr would like to introduce you to Mesperyian, the "Greek" goddess they made up wholecloth.
Yeah, the gun just clicked for me much faster than the bow. Helps that maxed Aspect of Eris is “gun but you have a constant 75% damage boost if you can aim and/or dash into the special’s area consistently” and the attack speed is fast, but not fast enough for the internal cooldown on Zeus lightning to be a problem on attack. Bow can be fun but I still have no idea when to charge my shots when using aspects other than Hera and I’ve noticed it feeling way harder to defend myself while wielding it.
Really want more Aztecan, Chinese, Hindu or Orisha/West African mythology. Would be really nice to see. Hades was great though. Only time I re enjoyed Greek mythology
Making a game that impresses yahtzee is a really high bar to reach, but I suppose having him make a video where he mercilessly tears it apart is an honour in and of itself 🤣
Watch this week's Zero Punctuation episode on Crash Bandicoot 4: It's About Time - www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/crash-bandicoot-4-its-about-time-zero-punctuation/ - OR subscribe via UA-cam Memberships and get all of our premium content a week early on UA-cam!
If you guys hire rich evans permanently I'll buy premium.
Come on just get Jack to talk nice to him, I miss previously recorded
Does escapist pluss come with a better media player?
@@Clul episodes show up a week early on UA-cam as well, I think
Zoroastrism was featured in the 2007 Prince of Persia
Severance: Blade of Darkness is based on Zoroarastrianism
What I especially love about Zagreus as a character is that he has every reason in the world to be an edgy teenage douchebag but he's actually very kind, polite and respectful to everybody except his dad.
I like talking to Hades last of the bunch for that reason. It‘s a bunch of pleasant conversations and then „fuck you, dad“ which is kind of funny.
You know; until you progress the game enough.
"Kind, polite, and respectful to everyone except his dad."
And Theseus. First time I fought him I thought "Yeah, f*ck this guy." I was weak for a good couple minutes one run when Zagreus greeted them with "Asterius. Other guy."
@@curtishammer748 The respect Zagreus has for Asterius and contempt that he has for Theseus makes me lose my mind everytime I beat Asterius and he congratulates me while Theseus screams bloody murder.
@@mudawott Or when Zag casually mentions to Asterius "Hey, we can, like, be friends if you want..." and Theseus takes it SUPER personally!
@@curtishammer748 This game is just a gift
I love the idea that the other gods are helping you purely as a way to troll your dad. It feels very on brand for Greek mythology shenanigans.
I'm morally obligated to pick Dionysus or Poseidon whenever they show up for that exact reason.
Artemis is a close second in that dynamic.
The entire pantheon just collectively said "F you Hades"
Especially ironic since Hades has made it a point to stay away from the rest of the pantheon and out of their business because he hates getting involved in their drama, which points to them trying to screw over Hades because they're bored of harassing each other.
Yeah, though the Greek Pantheon shenanigans are toned WAY the fuck down for this game 🤣
Would be on brand for egyptian mythology too. I think there was a story there about one god trying to trick another into drinking his cum.
A thing worth mentioning is as far as interpretations of Greek mythology go this one actually kinda slaps. Gods are fickle and stubborn, heroes are hideously flawed (especially Theseus, as is appropriate), the gods have creative personalities, but not nonsensical onses and it feels like the creators know more about Greece than just having watched Disney's Hercules and 300 one Saturday evening which is pretty nice.
Fucking love that after you fight Charon the first time, everyone you talk to is like "what? why the fuck would you do that?" Like the lounge is a small town bar and everyone knows everyone and you just started shit with Old Man Dougherty up on the hill. It feels cozy and real. Supergiant just gets better and better with their character writing.
This is the exact same as Kid Icarus uprising which is a pretty much forgotten 3DS games but it is unbelievably well written in the way it portrays the gods
Tbh this is the best interpretation of greek mythology ever
@@calumreadle4385 Right? I feel like everyone is forgetting KIU here. Its world and characterizations are super comparable to HADES's
@@AlphaOblivion7 I sadly could never finish KIU, the controls were just too much for me and I dropped it, my ds felt too small and I was losing combos and levels left and right so I just said fuck it, but what little I did play I do agree!
Hades did itself a huge favor by progressing the story or interactions with characters progressively with dying so when you inevitably die, it doesn't feel as punishing. Along with making the runs even to completion relatively short, I think they have a winning formula.
I've legit started a run and died in the first room just so I could continue a conversation in the great hall that I really wanted to see through.
@@westy1637 Ironically, that's the only problem I had with it. After enough runs you start seeing them as a chore to hear the next story beats at the house. Especially after the first ending, when you no longer have much story driven motivation to actually beat the run.
That said, it took me dozens of runs to get to that point, the character/weapon/prophecy progression covers for it pretty well, and ultimately I agree it makes failing a run much less like a punishment. I can easily see myself coming back from time to time.
@@sm901ftw Yeah, I'm finding my current "story goal" of raising my relationships with the Olympic gods to be kind of tiring. I'm throwing bottles of Nectar and Ambrosia at everyone I see and it's still taking forever.
@Zatchooze Naut I was trying to figure out how to unlock those progressions but it seems like they all just happen eventually if you keep playing.
It also worked in the development. The story evolved alongside the game, and the characters reacted to that (all the jokes about there being no further content due to "ongoing Underworld renovations"). Like they did to everything else. That is what added to the satisfying Early Access experience.
"Rumplecrag"? The goddess of items that get stuck in drawers is Anoia, thank you very much. Terry Pratchett beat you to it.
YESSSSSS another Discworld fan! "How can it close on the damned thing but not open with it? Who bought this? Do we ever use it?" Praise unto Anoia!
Rattle your drawers!!
Had to scroll through the comments and happy to see someone beat me to brining up Anoia. Rattle Your Drawers
You beautiful people.
One would think Yathzee would remember what with being a Terry Pratchett fanboy.
You know a game is well worth playing when Yahtzee's final conclusion is practically "It does exactly what it set out to do & the narrative focus meshes well with the core gameplay loop".
focus on the primary GAMEPLAY *LOOP*
"So Zagreus pulls a reverse Orpheus..."
Funny you should say that...
Good riddance
It's in the blood
Does he get torn apart by his relatives in the living realm? That'd be a pretty accurate reverse Orpheus.
@@noonenowhere877 slight spoilers: nope but he does end up inviting all the ones that show up to a dinner party(context makes this a lot more important an event)
@@noonenowhere877 The slightly spoilery answer is, the whole game seems like the Devs wanted to do their personal head canon for the Orphic Mysteries.
Batting eyelashes for money now Yahtzee? When are we going to get that OnlyFans?
For THAT I would pay though...
Only if it’s rule 34 of his avatar and imps.
@@sirapple589
Same art style, though, so don't get _too_ excited. Or _do,_ if you're into that sort of thing.
Jocose Sonata
I’d prefer the same art style but on the other hand, I wouldn’t mind seeing different art styles.
I imagine that it’d look similar to Rayman rule 34, which exists because clearly nothing is sacred.
George Tsiros
I don’t recall this.
Please explain.
Yahtzee, if the Escapist is holding a gun to your head, animate your character blinking twice
He say's he's good. I made sure. ;)
Wait, but in his art style characters don't have eyelids... You set him up for failure!
@@NekoiNemo I did say I made sure of it.
NekoiNemo His characters can be portrayed with closed eyes. He kept falling asleep while playing Hob.
@@theescapist ;) or ;) ;)?
You know Hades is a good game when Yahtzee isn't sarcastically describing the game's features
Hey justin
Oh neat caught your comment early
Everyone's so positive. Most comments sections weirdly get to insulting Justin Y straight away but I guess ZP watchers are different
@@tuna5305 depends on how annoying they're being
I know of your reputation, but it always feels so surreal to find you in the wild.
I think you have to pray to Anoia first; she's got the whole "kitchen utensils jammed into the drawer" bit all locked up.
I understood that reference :)
Aww, just beat me to it. Rattle those drawers!
You might even get enough money to rebuild a post office or something.
Aaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy!
I don't know if the Greeks did this but the Romans had dozens of minor gods/goddesses like a goddess of doorways or houseplants. They wouldn't build huge temples to them like the major gods but would still be prayed to by the subset of people who cared about the things in their limited domain.
Well at least, Supergiant took a lot of time to make Hades because they wanted to avoid unnecessary and mandatory crunch time. This company really seems like an awesome place to work in.
Careful putting them on a pedestal. Wouldn't want them to make a Blizzard faceplant.
@@SophiaAstatine that's fair, but it's also important to display that as consumers we do value these traits. Because if we don't praise those who get it right, those who get it wrong think they can get away with it. So yeah, don't put them on a pedestal, but at least say well done and point them to the vending machine with the best snacks.
@@bye1551 Of course. Point is only that some companies can look awesome to us on the outside, yet severely underappreciate and underpay their staff on the inside. Feeding off fan passion to recruit people despite the conditions.
@@SophiaAstatine that's understandable, I misinterpreted your point, I understand now and fully agree with that. I hope supergiant games is as squeaky clean on the inside as they appear on the outside, but I suppose time will tell.
@@bye1551 Yeah. Because with their games being so great, it'd suck to suddenly find out their employees have second jobs just to get by.
If you're having trouble understanding this review:
He liked it.
He would rate it between 7 and 8 IMO
Not that that is a bad score.
Nice boktai profile picture my dude
despite not having an affinity for rogue-lites
To elaborate, "he liked it, but not for its gameplay"
The irony is, you see yourself as such a savvy fan of Zero Punctuation that you can translate his stance to the less educated masses, when in reality, the reason it’s so rare for Yahtzee to definitively state his stances is that he believes in the power of complex opinions. The sort of thing that could not possibly be conveyed with a numerical score, and certainly not with a simple thumbs up or thumbs down.
Modern mythology is a thing, and it's been around for years: it's called "urban legends". They don't tend to survive for very long these days when we don't paint them on vases anymore, though.
Isn’t there a new game coming out set in Tokyo where you investigate the Tokyo urban legend classics?
I mean also the world changes pretty quick, who cares about semi-mythic highwaymen now that inter-state motorways exist.
Granted I assume that's mostly because we think of urban legends as less of a full on religion and more as just some weird monster stories.
Though a game where the villains are various folklore monsters from contemporary America like Mothman and the Jersey Devil sounds cool
I've also heard people call Folk Heroes and superheroes the kind of modern mythology, Tale Foundry has a good video on folk heroes and the other one I don't remember where I got it from.
@@bowmanc.7439 Ghostwire Tokyo, methinks.
another new mythology game is "Raji: an ancient epic", which is an indie game based on Hindu and Balinese mythology
Crap, I remembered too late. Saw your comment after I wrote mine.
India has a vast amount of mythology that can easily turn into any kind of narrative
Does “Indivisible” count or is that more Hindu-esque?
(Either way, I love how the “Ajna” twist was right under my nose the whole time!)
I think I heard of that one before. Aren't Barong and Rangda 2 of the bosses in that game?
Balinese? I can't wait to play a pasta game.
Somebody really needs to make a game on Zoroastrianism already.
Prince of Persia 2008 XD
So, Crusader Kings 2?
Fate/Stay Night, but it's also got like, all the other ones too so idk if that counts
I know we're all partially kidding here, but Greek mythology has the advantage of being recognizable to the audience. At this point the Greek Pantheon is basically a bunch of tropes. Using lesser-known mythologies is a disadvantage unless it's a compelling story experience that takes its time with characterization. Basically until some storytellers in various mediums decide to take up zoroastrianism and it becomes something a lot of people collectively sort of know about, using it is going to be seen as a financial risk in most mediums, especially games. And no I'm not very fun at parties 😂
That's when I play Civ with a religion strat.
1:05 one of the main reasons why there are so much stuff about Greek mythology in particular that I'm aware of is that unlike most mythologies the Greeks were big nerds that wrote E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G so we had masses of text about them including their gods. So for most other mythologies, it's not like they aren't telling you as many stories as they are from the Greek, they simply don't have as much text and the little they have is filtered by decades of Christian monks mixing up with their religion.
@@macmcskullface1004 Hard to imagine an American game developer making a game based on, let's say, Chinese or Hindu mythology.
But then in that case, wouldn't we have tons and tons of games about Christian----ooooooohhhhhhhh
@@macmcskullface1004 Yeah but those aren't the same brand of "mythology" considering they are still religion for some people.
Not only you have to be careful not to step on people's toes when working with them, there's some extra mystical spice when working with ancient extinct mythos.
So you can see why the Greeks are still more popular in media.
After reading about the history of Medusa (her original story was not a woman cursed by Athena due to being raped by Posiedon. In fact, her head adorning doors existed long before Perseus was even created to make up an explanation.) we can also thank The Romans poets for making Greek mythology as we mostly know it (Medusa as a human was created by the Romans. In the original Greek, she was always a gorgon, but had the weakness for some unexplained reason for being mortal.)
@BTIsaac That's like saying the difference between archeology and grave robbing is in how fancy the graves are.
"I don't know anything about Zarathustra! I know that he spake once." gets me every time.
I think the big issue with covering a lot of "mythologies" is that a lot of people from other cultures still actively practice them as religions. Zorastrianism, the one you brought up, is a perfect example of this. It's one of the oldest religions still practiced in the modern day, rivalled only by Hinduism. It predates and inspired many cultural practices within Abrahamic faiths, especially Judaism and Islam and many Zorastrians find themselves persecuted in states that have banned their religion as paganism. They have been historically subjugated, but they have also been the primary faith of an empire, Persia, that has subjugated as well.
If some American indie game developer were to adapt Zorastrian faith into a video game it carries thousands of years of baggage that still effect people alive today AND runs the risk of having glaring inaccuracies spotted and offending relevant parties.
Greek mythos, or as practitioners in the modern day sometimes call it in English, Hellenism, runs that risk far less because 1. It's stories have worked themselves into a multilingual classical literary canon that exists in an unspoken "theological public domain" recognized within academic amd creative communities near universally. 2. The actual number of modern practitioners and believers is so small that some are unaware it is a practiced faith in the modern era. And 3. A significant percentage of practitioners observe the faith for the sake of cultural, linguistic and theological preservation rather than a literal belief.
Now, while Zorastrianism also leaves in the faith room for skepticism and disbelief, suggesting Zorastrian faith as a basis for FICTION is it's own problem outside resisting religious baggage.
The same I said of Hellenism can be said of many other faiths often covered in media: Norse mythos, Celtic Polytheism, various Indigenous polytheisms, neo-paganism etc. Practice of these faiths are, for many people, an act of preservation and an active rejection of colonial faiths in their native countries. Thereby, less literal depictions of them cross into a realm of acceptability not seen in other faiths.
So, if you wanted to adapt a widely practiced faith into a work of fiction it would have to be sensitively handled, have far more research put in, pass a professional sensitivity reading and even then some people are going to hate it based simply on the nature of an actively practiced faith being at the centre of it.
EDIT: Also, rhetorical? No such thing when you accidentally hit my special interests.
Counterpoint: People are so thin-skinned nowadays that no matter what you do you'll offend some group or other. So there's really no reason not to make a game about whatever mythology you want. If people of the Zoroastrianism faith don't like the game you've made that was based off their mythology, fuck 'em.
@@TheKrossRoads Counterpoint: the issue is less the zorastrian faith and more about marketing stats.
Think of it this way. Let's say you're an indie studio. You have a choice basic ol' classical greek mythology over here and zorastrianism over there.
Greek mythology is, as I say, basic. No one cares except maybe a few people who are just plain disinterested in mythos at all. Okay. You cut off a small portion of your potential audience that is disinterested. After that, a small portion of your potential audience that just prefers AAA games to indie. Then you have people who aren't interested in the rogue-like genre, they fall off. Then you have rogue-like purists not interested in the rogue-lite / rogue legacy subgenre because purists. Then you are left with what remains as your potential audience.
Then you have zorastrianism as your option. Take off all those same demographics, PLUS anyone who is zorastrian and cares about the above academic analysis of the issue (because obviously not all zorastrians will care. No group is a monolith.) But then you also shave off anyone with in interest in theological issues in general. Then you probably cut out a lot of wacky christians - not all christians. Just the wacky ones. No group is a monolith - who claim zorastrian imagery is satanic (because american media has falsely co-opted multiple religious images in the past from zorastrianism to represent demons such symbols have nothing to do with.) Then you shave off anyone who looks at this and goes "zorastrianism? Wtf is that? Wish they did [insert popular mythos here]. Don't care; not gonna buy it." And you are also missing out on a huge audience that might have played your game JUST for the greek mythos, because, let's be real, mythology nerds are thirsty for content always.
And, by the end, you have shaved more fractions off and missed out on more demographics than if you had just gone with Greek Mythos. And so, you see, it's not so much JUST an issue of the philisophical and academic problems raised but also basic arithmetic rooted in those problems.
There are just way more advantages to not adapting it and faiths like it than there are to adapting it for the sake of itself. When you are an independant studio with a more limited scope and budget, these factors apply doubly so.
That's just the world we live in. Thems the breaks. You have to take people and their feelings into account or they won't buy what you're selling...literally. That's almost the entire point of a PR or marketing team.
Zoroastrian mythology isn't the same as the Zoroastrian religion. You can make a game about St. George killing the dragon and not make it about Christian catechism.
Zoroastrian mythology is Persian mythology. It has been retold, rewritten, and adapted for other media for thousands of years. The Prince of Persia games already adapted parts of it. So did StarCraft II actually (in that case it was more a reference). And nobody lost their minds.
Odds are nobody would mind. Or nobody that matters, anyway. I mean, look at what Shin Megami Tensei gets away with. You literally kill YHWH in like half the games. And it has gods and demons from many, many popular religions.
@@mickymcbryan4814 How many of those fractions actually play lots of video games? How many "wacky Christians" actually purchase titles that aren't specially things like bible games? How many people are REALLY turned off because you made a game about a mythology they don't know much about?
The answer to all those is "probably not enough to be concerned about even if added together". Chances are if you're making a game about something like this, you're an indie developer. And if you're an indie developer, the measure of success is much lower than a AAA effort.
I'd be willing to bet that you'd be able to reach the threshold for success even by alienating ALL of those fractions you mentioned. As long as your game has great gameplay, and uses the mythology to tell an interesting story, you'll be fine.
Hades is a roguelike that wants you to win, whereas other RL's like Spelunky just want you to fail but have fun doing so. Imo, Hades is so easy to pick up and is just as enjoyable in shorter jaunts as it is in longer sessions. Add to that the fact that today's industry standard is to spread the smallest amount of sauce across the absolute largest amount of empty calorie dough and this game is suddenly a refreshing reprieve from the grindy slogs of the AAA market. Is it perfect? Of course not, entropy decays all, but for the time being I've found myself spending a lot of time with the game in lieu of the bigger budget titles, which says something about its quality at the very least.
If I had to choose between the two I'd choose Hades.
There is no plot in Spelunky and the game obsesses over finding ways to make you fail that it doesn't reward you in any way for succeeding. You just have to enjoy overcoming the odds for it to reward you while Hades actually offers a reward.
i second this. i was playing rdr2, switched to hades and haven’t put it down yet. it’s fun. i wasn’t having fun playing rdr2, i’m having fun with hades
"Rumblecrag the God of small utensils that get jammed in the kitchen drawer"
Praise Anoia!
I'm wondering if the name Rumblecrag was an additional level of joke since Anoia is also a volcano goddess.
If you get it, you get it.
I thought exactly the same thing xD
The big upsides of Greek and Norse mythology: they're quintessentially European, and well-and-truly dead. This basically means that developers can do whatever they want without risking getting blasted for cultural insensitivity. Religions which are 1) alive, and 2) not white, pose a much greater risk to developers.
Celtic/gaelic Myth could theoretically fall into a similar bucket, but has the issues that 1) nobody can pronounce the names, and 2) there's still sensitivity there due to the centuries-long persecution and suppression of gaelic cultures in France and the British Isles.
Beyond which, half the point of using real mythology is to leverage the familiar characters and concepts for drama, which doesn't work as well when nobody's actually familiar with the characters to start with.
@@macmcskullface1004 Being Polish didn't save CDPR from being criticized for not including enough black characters in a game set in medieval northern Europe.
@@macmcskullface1004 They absolutely could use potentially sensitive sources, but why would they? The benefits for getting it right are few, the negatives for messing it up are many, and needing to change your depiction of a character or narrative because some might take offense is significant. The simple fact that it requires caution is a disincentive by itself.
You are right that there are many other cultures which could potentially serve as safe myth-fodder. Slavic, Baltic and Finnic mythologies are probably safe, they just still have the issue that nobody who isn't a history nerd knows about them, so the developers can't lean on those widespread preconceptions which are half the reason for using actual mythology in a story.
(This is really the bigger deal, IMO, because Ancient Egyptian myth is popular for adaption, so is Japanese myth, or even Chinese! Though that is risky if you want to actually sell your game *in* China.)
@@macmcskullface1004 you're talking about social benefits. I'm talking about benefits for the developers, and of those, the only applicable one is that it's novel and potentially able to draw additional interest. That aspect, the novel element, is a fairly powerful draw, particularly for indie studios, but the issue that they will always face is the extra responsibility that comes with tackling potentially sensitive material. That is a burden, no matter how you frame it, and therefore people will tend to avoid that responsibility.
And all those wonderful social benefits? Those are amazing for the audience, and can greatly benefit society and awareness of the relevant cultures. But they're extra work for the developer. If you make a game about the Norse gods, you can play with the characterisation without fear. But if you're the first person in the world to make a game about Korean Shamanism, you basically have a duty to play it straight, because the changes you made to the themes and characterisation in the myth will cement themselves as many people's idea of what that is like. The group which goes on to do additional research and find out more and learn those inaccuracies is tiny.
As I said though, the biggest part is simply *why* people use mythology (or other pseudo-mythical tropes like Elves and Dwarves and such) in the first place. They are tools, creative shortcuts that allow designers to convey character and theme without needing to actually show it or cover in detail. This use absolutely relies on common knowledge in the audience about the characters and tropes therein. If Loki shows up in Norse myth, everyone basically knows his deal, it doesn't need to be explained. If this was Coyote in an American mid-west mythos? You're going to have to actually set the character up from scratch, at which point you could have just as easily done a wholly original character.
Regardless, I don't see this debate going anywhere productive at this point, so have a good day, I do enjoy talking with reasonably polite sorts on the internet even if we can't come to an agreement. :)
People dip into Mesopotamian and Egyptian myth pretty often.
Except that in this game Athena and Eurydice are black and Dionysus is South Asian. Supergiant have been very clear that they drew inspiration directly from the original Greek stories, rather than other media made about those stories. And that since the gods that the ancient Greeks worshipped originated from across the greater Mediterranean region and (y'know) they're GODS, they didn't feel obliged to make characters that passed as white.
0:48 - "Is there any reason we can't make up mythology? Like if I wanted to invent Maurice the god of consumer electronics..."
Ya know, that was the basic premise of American Gods, right?
I mean, there's also Japanese Mythology games like Okami, there's a Chinese mythology game based on Sun Wu Kong coming out at some point, Asura's wrath is... Loosely based on Indian mythology, and if you want a lil bit of everything, there's Shin Megami Tensei or Fate
I find the fact that Indian mythology was as bananas as Asura's Wrath or even more so to be utterly hillarious, truth be told. Ah, what a sadly forgotten game. It had many faults but it was something different and enjoyable.
I am still haunted by all the contextual voice lines I have not found yet. They're all so bloody fitting or funny.
I've watched the series long enough that I knew he'd devote at least thirty seconds of the review to pointing out how Greek Mythology is old hat as far a source materials go.
I've watched long enough to know that if he goes on for the first thirty seconds talking about something other than the game than that means he likes it and doesn't have enough to complain about.
At least they touched on a rather interesting part of Greek Mythology. Zagreus is a very old god who got syncretized with Dionysus and incorporated in the Orphic Mysteries. Why he's there as well as Dionysus is a bit of a mystery to me though as someone who's studied the Mysteries.
@@jquickri spot on
@@jquickri counterpoint: He'll also put off the review if the game is so boring and samey it's not worth talking about. Like how he spent the first part of his Division 2 video talking about another game.
What nobody bothers to mention is Cerberus is the goodest boy ever and you can totally pet him. You even get an achievement for doing so ten times.
Castlevania's Alucard playing this game: "...this story speaks to me somehow."
I'd *love* to read that fanfiction.
A Game that Jim Sterling loves and Yahtzee, doesn't hate? Damn i'm sold
People still watch him?
I've just got to the perfect ending, been unable to put it down for a week - you won't regret :)
@@JJAB91 well i do
Sterling's game critique is atrocious, though, unlike his publisher scandals coverage. Not sure why would you pay attention to what he thinks about games.
@@nikitas1841 his taste in games is different from yours, that doesn't make him a bad critic, just one for a different kind of player.
I am a true supporter. I spend the least amount of money to support my favorite creators. 😏😏😏
Hey, any dollar amount supported helps us to worry less about views and algorithms and just good and fun content.
0 dollar club baby
I really believe that this game has a very well made "arcady" feel, in that it does have option for skill, and it does get very hard at high heats with different weapons. I think if you do put the extra hours in and get the feel of how the game works, after the whole huge stoy ends, you are left with a very interesting, very fast-paced advanced arcade to keep playing and 205 hrs in, my heart still rushes every single time I fight Hades. My personal game of the decade :)
“Hey Yahtzee, we need you to plug our premium membership.”
“Can I do it in a very dismissive, passive aggressive fashion?”
“Absolutely, we would expect nothing else!” :)
"We would be insulted if you *didn't*."
"Do I need to paint it on a vase and bury it for a thousand years?"
No, you just need to be a fantastic con artist like L. Ron Hubbard or Joseph Smith.
Fuck, when you put it like that, I suddenly have some very blasphemous questions about Jesus and Mohammad...
"Hey, is there any reason we can't make up more mythology?"
I, errr, don't think so? Ask Neil Gaiman perhaps?
Last time we just made up more mythology, we got Slenderman. I think we should wait and see if we get better at it.
American Gods is stellar, don't @ me
@@Torvaun What's wrong with Slendy?
"I don't know anything about Zarathustra... I know that he spake once."
Died.
*dies meaninglessly*
Best Nietzsche reference ever
Just like god
Everyone acts so surprised that Yahtzee stopped playing after 20 rounds as if he hasn’t played 30 roguelites by now.
At least turn on godmode and beat the game 10 times for the story. It's worth
One mustn't trudge through gameplay they don't enjoy -- there's always UA-cam. And I say that as someone who's lost count of his runs in Hades.
@@GeorgeNoiseless The game tells you in multiple places how many runs you've done. On the save select screen, in that little blue seeing pool you can buy for your room, and in the records room.
@@joshbrucks actually pretty sure he's finished it, on stream he had a save that was "basically at the end" so
@@fuzzyterror2866 Thank you for the heads up, but I must admit to my shame that I knew how to check, but was too lazy to fire up the game at that moment to actually do so.
I've gone and checked now -- it's 55 runs over 71 hours,
The last time I remember Yahtzee being this nice about a game he was talking about Orange Box. It must be a masterpiece.
I feel like a side benefit of the power progression in Hades is that it underscores the point they're trying to make about how Hades himself has chosen a stupid hill to die on and is fighting the inevitable. Sure it's challenging, and can remain challenging for a good long while, but that's mostly through extra challenges and taking risks to speed up the metaprogression and get resources to advance the character arcs, not because it's hard to just get to the end after you've gotten some solid upgrades. Accessability is probably the bigger reason but it works from a narrative perspective too.
"Hey, is there any reason we can't make up more mythology?"
might want to ask HP Lovecraft about that
That's kind of overused as well and now it's tainted by Lovecraft's racism even though everyone that uses Lovecraft's work always omits that part from the mythology.
@@OdaSwifteye yeah, i guess the name "shub-niggurath" never makes it past the censors
@@OdaSwifteye You're speaking as if people don't use ANY mythology and omit the problematic parts. Let's not forget how often Zeus is NOT portrayed as willing to force himself on anything with a womb... including his own family.
@@OdaSwifteye zeus... Raped dozens of women... And yet we still use greek mythology...
@@OdaSwifteye Ah yes because Lovecraft was edgy young lad who was raised by hardcore Christans, let's forget the fact that he married a Jewish wife and wrote mutiple books at the later stage of his life accepting of people with different skin color than him.
0:53 Rumblecrag that's a weird way to say anoia
its her roman aspect
Hades does contain veiled references to several other mythologies, it's subtle, & a relatively late game, but each is accompanied by fascinating, brilliantly acted dialogue. One of my favourite things about the game, the way such small details vastly expand the scope of the story!
The Gan Khef Corner:
"I know that he spake once."
The way this game incorporates gameplay elements into the story is masterful and the story itself? After 60 attempts in hell mode for my first experience with this game? Truely moving. And i will make sure i endure as many times as it takes for the true ending CUS ZAGS A GOOD LAD AND DESERVES SOME FUCKIN LOVE M8!
he is the best lad
Yahtzee: Mentions he'd like to see a game about Zoroastrianism
Me, a Zoroastrian: OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Game ideas: your a preist world is corrupted and you need to spread fire to purify world
There are both ups and downs to the fact that your religion is still practiced for people using it in games and stuff, makes gathering research easier I guess but also means there are people you should be respectful and not to misrepresent them. Though personally I think people should still be respectful of mythologies like Greek and Norse where a lot of the context was lost due to the living religion surrounding them dying out
Just play Crusader Kings 2/3!
You are not Zoroastrian. I am calling you out.
@@clarehidalgo I mean Zeus raped women as animals and ate his children, so I'm not sure how any context coukd redeem worshiping him haha
I see you and your vague Pratchett reference Yahtzee. Anoia will be upset she has been replaced with Rumblecrag!
Now that factorio is out of early access, yahtzee really needs to review it.
I felt the same about Oxygen Not Included, another game off of the early access grill (they share some similar elements too). But I have a feeling Yahtzee wouldn't like either game.
@@faustlican5566 oxygen not included left early access? damn, must have missed it.
@@OdaSwifteye you joke about autism but being autistic myself all I can say is true that.
Hades is a masterpiece. I can't believe you got bored in only like 20 runs, I'm well past run 150 and really enjoying it still
Indeed it is
I bet anyone would get bored if their job is to play videogames every day...
I think Yahtzee as said before that he doesn't really like rogue-likes all that much. He can stand them, but isn't really a fan.
I got bored by about 50, it depends on your tolerance for these sort of things. I'm still going at it every now and then for a run or so, but just or the story and character side of things. Getting some good upgrades can make the combat fun, but if you've been left weak even Asphodel can be a drag, let alone Elysium.
he has a deadline, and it's still just another roguelike
good story and gameplay integration, but a roguelike nonetheless and he hit roguelike fatigue awhile back(give it time and maybe that'll wear off, has with past genera fatigues)
I understand where you're coming from, since you need to beat the game in like a week and whatever makes the ending come sooner is what you must do. I take breaks from playing Hades, and whenever I come back I feel like I've made progress. I'm even deliberately not trying too hard to beat it because I want to see all of the possible interactions before completing my first run. That being said, I am a massive SuperGiant Games fanboy.
Perfectly encapsulates my views of supergiant games. Amazingly designed, gorgeous art, story, and voices, buy every single one, brag to my friends... and yet so far Ive never super enjoyed one. I enjoy playing them WHILE Im playing them, but I rarely feel like “oh boy I wanna play Pyre today!”
I don't know who would pay for a suscription to a UA-cam Channel.
Wait a minute...
There's already a god(des) of small utensils that get stuck in kitchen drawers. Her name is Anoia and she's part of the Discworld pantheon.
"Or breaks the difficulty in half like a Kitkat"
*cough cough* Demeter's Cast *cough*
"hack hack" Sea Storm/Tidal Dash
@@Eweiit I just dash around the room until everyone's pulp lol
4:25 worth remembering that each weapon also has 4 different variations now. Some are very different to the base versions with entirely different move sets etc. I’ve got about 45 runs completed now and haven’t unlocked half the weapon forms and have barely touched two of the base weapons - part of the fun is pushing yourself through the end game difficulty modifiers (heat levels) whilst you can also disable them all and just enjoy creating an obscenely powerful combination of boons that you wipe the floor with previously tricky enemies. All of this with continued story elements that tie in with gameplay.
Well deserved of game of the year.
Disagree on the Pyre take. It DEFINITELY takes the most getting used to, but once you get the hang of it and pump it up to the difficulty higher than normal, its fantastic.
I'd go a step further and disagree with the "they aren't as good to play". Each one is layered and well done.
Eventually you get so high on the escalator you can really limit the randomness a lot. Between the item that lets you change the next room and the keepsakes that guarantee who your next boon comes from (which you can switch in between floors, so you can do that three times a run), you can basically decided what upgrades you're going to go for before you even start the run. After a certain point, you should basically be able to beat every run, barring some really atrocious luck.
Hades: That's where the story takes place and what the gameplay feels like by the end.
Hey, don't be doing Yatzee's job for him.
Tbh talking to the characters is a huge motivator for me. I smile every time I run into one of the random characters in a run (Bouldy, the nymph, gay Eeyore, and Than... especially Than, since I get a kick out of how that character encounter works mechanically, too). Even when I'm having a horrible run I still try to push as far as I can in the hopes that I'll run into one of them before I die.
"Can we make new mythology?"
American gods ears pick up
That opener was such whiplash when I was was ready for the theme to come blaring in.
I see the Pratchett Reference. I see it. You can't hide it from us Yatzhee.
Regarding the boatload of contextual voice lines: I'm streaming an older version of Hades these days (v.022141, the first one that contained the final boss) and they even made contextual voice lines for stuff that changed from the last update, which implies they won't be in the final game. Zagreus and Skelly have a conversation about the big main entrance door suddenly having been redesigned in that one. Also the dialogue about trophies seemed to use "this is new since last time" phrasings that I wouldn't expect to find the same way in v1.0.
Haven't confirmed yet, since I haven't actually played v1.0 ;)
Yeah they did that a few times with different updates. I loved it, you could really tell they're enjoying the heck out of interacting with their playerbase before release.
I know Yahtzee's entire shtick is amplifying every negative, but i love the combat in this game. Some boon combinations are fucking busted, especially the ones from Daedalus. I've done 27 runs and I still can't wait to do the next one. Don't sleep on this game. It's top notch. Super addictive combat, beautiful art style, and a great story with fun characters that doesnt take itself too seriously.
Agreed; the combat in this game is a joy to play. I don't quite understand Yahtzee's attempt to make it seem even slightly negative; each weapon has a unique feel and playstyle and by the time those aren't enough, you'll start unlocking weapon Aspects.
But the combinations being busted thing can be just as much a negative as a positive. I'm on 7 clears (on hell mode) right now and the only thing keeping me from plowing through a few more is I've found reliable combinations for each weapon that just take all the challenge out of what is still a 25+ minute run no matter how fast you're clearing. I guess you could crank the heat up past the current gauge or run worse synergies just for variety's sake, but even then, most of the increased challenge is from increased sponginess and you're back to the potato salad criticism.
@@JaelinBezel It's Greek Mythology. EVERYBODY was a bad father.
Especially Zeus.
@@luminozero Hades is the only likely decent dad. He's much more chill than Zeus or Poseidon, especially in the rape department.
@@abasdarhon He's on a time constraint, so he doesn't have the same time and leisure to experiment and take it easy, which probably impacts his experience. Kind of like the observer effect, its a reviewer effect. The act of reviewing the game changes how the game is perceived.
You missed mentioning the music, Yatz. Still gives me a thrill, after a hundred odd hours
All that's missing is Danny Devito yelling at you to
"GIT YAH SWWWOOOORD"!!
GET UP ON THE HYDRAS BACK
All I remember about transistor was the sword sounded sexy and I bawled like a child after.
“I know that he spake once” made me laugh unreasonably hard
"Can I make a God of consumerism?" Has anyone told Yahtzee about Shintoism? There's literally a god for everything no matter the era.
I never play 80% of the games he reviews, always watch the video though. :)
same af
Play this one :)
I watch Let's Plays.
Yahtzee brings up a good point about there being more ancient civilizations and mythologies that would be really cool to play in. I'd love to play a game set in Mesopotamia
This is the only channel I feel i owe money for the content. Its always good
Zero Punctuation indie rock track title of the week: Ride Through Hades On A Surfboard Made Of Skeletons
1:10
well it was kind of a religious in my country Iran long time ago. it isn't that complex. we worshiped Ahoora mazda and and we believed that fire is the purifier for every sin so we have thrown many people into fire , if they managed to come out alive it makes them innocent, there is even a great story about it in my culture from Ferdosi's Shahname named Siavash in flames that you should check out . Shahname is full of potential but no one use it for no god damn reason.
The Shahnameh is literally the Tenakh of Zoroastrianism. Very underappreciated by the Western world.
My favorite is when Zagreus asks his dad "why not just take my weapons away?", Hades responds that he can deal with him regardless
“Hey, is there any reason we can’t make up new mythology”
No one tell him about Mespyrian
or scientology
@@danilooliveira6580 I unironically want to see a game focused around Scientology now.
@@danilooliveira6580 or Star Wars
@@Nanook128 Isn't Ark Survival kinda scientology themed? In the way there's people fighting dinosaurs with guns?
I, uhm, don't know what scientology actually is.
What about lovecraftian mythology? Or is that too old at this point to count?
One year anniversary of the video that convinced me to pick up what would become one of my favourite games of 2020
god bless you Yahtzee
I mean... you CAN make your own mythology; it's called "lore." Just take a look at Pyre.
Even as someone who is not a fan of most rogue-likes, I think this game is fantastic. I was especially blown away on how much Supergiant Games did their research on the mythology. There are nods and references referring to especially obscure tales.
I love the Adamant Rail, some of it’s upgrades are fun.
The end of all Yahtzee promos should end with Yahtzee yelling away from the mic, "There Nic! I did it! You happy?!"
This is literally the only channel on UA-cam I subscribe to and pay for xD.
@@NekoiNemo Did.. you reply to the wrong person?
@@xdjrockstar Yep, somehow i clicked "reply" under the comment about Factorio, but it got posted here. Sorry
The Orpheus and Eurydice questline gives me life
0:54 Yahtzee, your Discworld references are showing.
I think "God Mode" is probably one of the best Assist Modes I have seen in a game. It doesn't automatically start you out at being this invincible force but gives you 20% more damage resistance, and then every death gives you 2% more up until the 80% max. It gives players who aren't good at roguelites the ability to get into the game while at the same time not making the game a complete steamroll. Other then a mark on a completion of a run it doesn't lock you out of anything either.
I know Yahtzee doesn’t really take suggestions, but I’d like to see him go back to tf2 after all these years
It has literally never changed over the past like.. 6 to 10 years.
@@MothSignal have you played tf2 recently?
@@MothSignal ahaha wow you never touched the game have you
@@tp4bunghole108 yes. And it hasn't changed. Other than ya know.. more hats.
@@angrypuckmen3501 please tell me how it changed other than adding more hats, I'll wait.
Hades just came out on Game Pass today for those viewing this in the future and I really regret not giving it a try till now because it’s really great. The combat is fun and he wasn’t kidding about those contextual dialogue options. The fact that roguelites and roguelikes tend to be plot-light as well usually turn me away from them but its gratifying to see the game evolve as I play it
Having finally bought Hades, I can actually confirm that chance plays a big part on your success, especially Athena's deflection boons, they're OP, since you can even deflect the bosses attacks.
If you have a handful of good boons early on and upgrade them to death, you can be nearly unstoppable by the end.
**Small spoiler here** You also need luck to get an early Minotaur fight in Elysium (I'm still struggling fighting Theseus and the Minotaur together). I got it once when I first got there, but since I was unprepared against the new foes there, I didn't last long against him. Now I can't seem to fight him alone again.
Otherwise, really loving the game, and I like the fact that the more you suck (erm... I mean... die), the more upgrades and story they reward you with. I'm worried by the end Hades will be so exasperated by my failed attempts he will escort me himself...
As someone a year in the future who only just found this channel. I stopped using Athena's deflection boons early on in my runs because I found other boons I felt were better. Which I feel goes against the idea that chance plays a big part in the sense you said. The chance to find the boons you like for sure, but most boons are viable. Just depends on your playstyle. I actively avoid Athena, the goddess you say is op, because I find her underwhelming lol. This game just has so much room for different styles that it leaves some feeling like their own style is the best style.
@@CyanSorrow Athena is nice to pick up, but for me I just love a spammy, mashy play style, so instead of Athena I beeline Poseidon and Hermes. Gimme dat splash dash. Gimme all of dem splash dashes.
@@JJ-qo7th Poseidon is a ton of fun and can wreck, but my favorite is Zeus. I love dashing around groups with all the lightning strikes lol. You can melt things like crazy with a good Zeus dash build and it's so fun for me.
@@CyanSorrow For me it's largely the fact that splash dash has a timing to it such that if you dash attack, the splash at the end will push the target away so you can dash attack into them again. On top of that, Poseidon just...has amazing internal synergies for pretty much all of his boons.
No small amount of it is the fact that Poseidon is the Cool Uncle. I can easily picture him being the kind of uncle who'll "accidentally" leave the liquor cabinet unlocked as long as he's in the same house, and will just let you learn a life lesson instead of telling your mother that he caught you slipping some out of one of the bottles.
There's already a god of things stuck in kitchen drawers, Anoia, first brought into being by Sir Terry Pratchett the Absurd.
I 100% second every word. About 20h in I reached a point where I could breeze thru all but the last 2 boss fights and it becomes sooooo tedious. When I learned that you don't even roll credits after your first clear I lost all interest and watched the story conclusion on yt. This would be one of my all time faves if it wasn't a roguelike lol
Yahtzee genuinely liked 2 games in one year. 2020 you never cease to amaze.
As a matter of fact, "Anoia" is the Goddess of Things that get Stuck in Drawers. Source: Terry Pratchet's Discord novels.
When that Lakey kicked in man. One of my favorite beat smiths of all time
Supergiant Games : "Exploring the dichotomy between movies you think are good and the type of movies that you actually watch."
Can't say I disagree though. There's a tone of games that I find a lot more interesting to learn about than to actually play. I'm sure there's a long German word for that.
Prince of Persia (2008) used Zoroastrian Mythology. Everyone seems to have collectively forgotten that game exists, though.
Later installments in the series burned a lot of the goodwill and good memories
"Is there anything preventing you from creating new mythology?"
Tumblr would like to introduce you to Mesperyian, the "Greek" goddess they made up wholecloth.
@AlexLoeher Aww, that's so sad. I hope you one day stop being so cynical and miserable.
@AlexLoeher You're adorable. Good luck to you, my guy
It’s interesting what he said about the gun because that’s exactly how I feel about the bow and the gun works way better for me.
Yeah, the gun just clicked for me much faster than the bow. Helps that maxed Aspect of Eris is “gun but you have a constant 75% damage boost if you can aim and/or dash into the special’s area consistently” and the attack speed is fast, but not fast enough for the internal cooldown on Zeus lightning to be a problem on attack.
Bow can be fun but I still have no idea when to charge my shots when using aspects other than Hera and I’ve noticed it feeling way harder to defend myself while wielding it.
Ah yes, rogue-like, where the comments section are full of backseating and telling you how you are playing the game wrong.
1:00 I’d love to see games based on stuff like Egyptian mythology/culture
Really want more Aztecan, Chinese, Hindu or Orisha/West African mythology. Would be really nice to see. Hades was great though. Only time I re enjoyed Greek mythology
Making a game that impresses yahtzee is a really high bar to reach, but I suppose having him make a video where he mercilessly tears it apart is an honour in and of itself 🤣