How to Read Revelation & Avoid the Mark of the Beast - Paul Lamicela - Ep. 211
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
- How should we read the Book of Revelation? What is apocalyptic literature, and how does the first century context help us better understand this book? And what is the Mark of the Beast? Paul Lamicela answers these questions and much more in this interview.
Paul’s website: www.biblicalst...
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This is the 211th episode of Anabaptist Perspectives, a podcast, blog, and UA-cam channel that examines various aspects of conservative Anabaptist life and thought.
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The views expressed by our guests are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Anabaptist Perspectives or Wellspring Mennonite Church.
While this isn't a good format for fully working through the many (good!) interpretive questions about Revelation, here are just a few responses to comments posted:
First, as I state multiple times in the episode (see 41:13, 58:20), the book of Revelation does speak of the future and not merely the present. It is not a vague "good and evil" story, but a vision about the climax of God's redemption and judgment as well as (in keeping with the NT's inaugurated eschatology) the redemption, judgment, and suffering that mark the entire messianic age up to the final climax (see Rev 12). Some events spoken of in Revelation have not yet happened--visions of Babylon's destruction, visions (multiple) of final judgment, new heavens and new earth, etc. But others have--the vision of the woman and her male child (Rev 12), for example, include Jesus' first coming and then spans the entire NT/messianic age up to Jesus' return. With Rev 12, many of the scenes in Revelation are meant to depict the entire age of waiting for the final judgment/salvation: much of the material in each of the judgment cycles (leading up to the "final judgment" depicted at the climax of the cycles), the "sealed" people of God vs. the "sealed" people of the beast, etc.
Second, one of my points in the episode is that the final culminations that there will be to some of Revelation's patterns will be just that--culminations of a pattern. A final antichrist figure will not be something categorically different from anything prior, but simply the last in a long line of antichrists. Knowing the pattern and its culmination, we are called to live today as those who give our allegiance to the Lamb and not to the antichrist / beast figures of our day.
Third, what I want to call people away from is the misreading of Revelation as consisting mainly of specific, detailed, direct predictions of prophecy-chart style events--a blueprint for the future. Revelation through its symbolism speaks of the grand sweep of events from Christ's first coming to final judgment / new creation, not a detailed description of the final years before Christ's return.
Finally, a couple of comments have brought up the millennium, though I don't believe I addressed this in the episode (perhaps I'm mistaken?). I wish to simply say that one can hold to a premillennial or an amillennial perspective (or other perspectives!) on Rev 20 within the general interpretive approach I discuss in the interview.
Note: An additional helpful resource (with a good emphasis on the key role of Rev 12 in the book) is Keener's commentary in the NIVAC series.
I agree with you that there are things in Revelation that have happened, chapter 12 as you stated is a good example. However, even within that chapter there are things that are futuristic. It is very common within prophetic scripture especially in the OT to see both comings of Christ within the same passage, and it is not that difficult for us to discern which goes where. The prophets however could not necessarily discern between the two. Anyhow back to Rev 12. Verse 5 states that this Male Child is to rule the world with a rod of iron. THERE IS NO WAY KING JESUS IS CURRENTLY RULING THE WORLD WITH A ROD OF IRON. Just pick up a newspaper if you need verification. Also, verse 6 states that this women (Israel) flees into the wilderness where she is protected by God for 1260 days. I know of nothing in the past that fits this. With this 1260 number we get into this 7 year 3.5 year stuff, (if we like it or not) which originates in Daniel 9. Seventy weeks are degreed for Daniel's people. 69 weeks have been fulfilled, there is a week that is still missing. Properly understanding Daniel's 70 weeks unlocks the entire prophetic narrative of the entire bible. It truly is amazing! There is a final discipline coming to Daniels people but after that a final and glorious restoration! Even so come Lord Jesus!
@@jameskleinsasser7064 "I know of nothing in the past that fits this." I must admit, neither do I. But my concern with this "I never saw it" reasoning is that some events aren't necessarily observed by all, some may be obscure to some. For example, Christ's first coming was of very, very high importance, and indeed was noticed by many, but Apollos had completely missed Christ's ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, and coming of the Holy Spirit. He had been baptized by John, and knew nothing further. His response was like yours, "I know of nothing in the past that fits this."
@@jameskleinsasser7064, Revelation 12 has the time, time, the cut of time in the presence of the serpent and in all those times the woman (Israel or Jews) have provision and security. After those three times something like October 7th, 2023 could happen. We are in an image of his time.
Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom: let him with understanding number the multitude of the beast, for it is the multitude of a man, and his multitude cometh besmAllah, Islam."
besm - in the name of
Allah - The Most High
Islam - in the full submission
How far into the image of his time did we get to make it to October 7th, 2023? Was it 1260 days? July 4th, 2024 is per the count for an image of the time.
"Allah Obama ab dama elyown." - Isaiah 14:14
He (Jesus) said, "I saw Satan as Barack Obama." - Luke 10:18
The perspective of the Book of Revelation as presented in this episode is most helpful. The Book of Revelation is just repeating the message of the rest of the New Testament in a different way, the way of apocalyptic literature, similar to apocalyptic literature of the Old Testament. Instead of being a strange book out of sync with the rest of the Scriptures, the Book of Revelation repeats the basic message of Scripture in an alternate form. God is quite creative in His efforts to woo us into cooperating with His cosmic plan which will eventually triumph - and we get a chance to participate in it!
Thank you, Chester.
Chester, this is very well said. Right on!
Amen! Thanks for taking the time to do this interview. Very powerful truth that we need to hear in our day!
Thank you! We were delighted that Paul joined us for this conversation.
Fantastic discussion. End time prophecies that came true in modern times, is one of the phenomenons that pushed me from a secular/atheist background, into faith. Anabaptism is the type of Christianity that seems most authentic to me.
Thanks for sharing this.
One of the best explanations of Revelation I’ve ever heard.
We were glad that Paul was able to come on and share too.
Thanks for this. Yeah, I learned a ton doing this interview!
Thank you, Anabaptist Perspectives, for posting this material. It was refreshing to hear Paul's patient explanation of how to read Revelation. Aside from the graffiti in Smyrna, I think my favorite takeaway was the mark in the foreheads of the faithful in 14:1 that is in contrast to the mark of the beast. I am all in favour of rehabilitating the Revelation. By God's grace, I may preach through it someday which would force me to dig in much deeper. Blessings!
Thanks for this edifying presentation. Especially clarifying for me is the thought that Revelation simply teaches what the NT teaches! I would welcome your views on the place of Israel. I have yet to hear an explanation from both camps that I am comfortable with. Thanks!
On Thursday this week we’re planning to publish a video where Paul discusses the place of Israel.
What a fantastic episode this was, thank you so much for sharing it! I’m now really exited to read Revelation with hopefully a new set of glasses. May the Lords peace and blessings be with you!
Thank you! We’re glad that it helped your enthusiasm to read Revelation.
This is brilliant, thank you. Can we please get this man teaching through Revelation online, please. I'm in a dispensational church because there is nowhere else to go where I live. It would be really good to have Anabaptist teaching on Revelation for those of us who live in countries without an Anabaptist witness.
Thank you for this suggestion, PJ. As much as we love this proposal, we are not able to commit to this at the moment. However, you are welcome to reach out to Paul through www.biblicalstoryline.org/ to give the pitch.
That's a great idea. I'll talk to Paul about it and see if he would be interested. I'd love to go deeper on this topic, and maybe he'll do a course on it one day.
Thank you so much for this helpful perspective! Though I was raised with the amillenial view, I've never heard Revelation explained in quite this way.
Glad it was helpful!
This video was wonderful. I thoroughly enjoyed the conversational approach to the book of Revelation.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I have now read through Revelation, and although I see that in many ways the prophecies can be, and most likely are cyclical and has a spiritual meaning, I still understand the text to explain what will happen in the end times. For example, I can see and do agree that the mark of the beast is a mark based on who/what you trust in during your life, but I also see that in the end, the last mark of the beast is the real deal in a more literal sense. Almost like that which is cyclical is very real and at the same time a foreshadow of the last that is to come. It’s all so interesting and I would love to listen to a study from Paul on this book.
Thank you for sharing this, Anna.
A very enlightening perspective. As humans we tend to see things from a natural, physical, tangible, earthly perspective. We can hardly imagine anything spiritual if we are carnal. The more we see spiritually, the more we can understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God. And those mysteries are far greater than any earthly kingdom. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you, Jonathan. It was a delight to have Paul join us for this episode.
Praise God! Really well explained!
Jesus said ;
Matthew 22:21
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
1 John 2:15-18
Thank you. We were glad to have Paul join us for this conversation.
5 major cities sit on 7 hills, one being Jerusalem.
I enjoyed this alternative view of Revelation.
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”
Revelation 1:1 KJV
“shortly come to pass”
1:04:37 "What would be one thing that you would like our audience to take away from this interview? That Revelation teaches the same message as the rest of the New Testament. It tells the story of the Bible, it is centered in Jesus death and resurrection. It does it in a different way, but it is a call for all of us to see the present and future in God's perspective." Thanks for this great interview!
You are welcome. It was a pleasure to have Paul join us for it.
This is so eye opening... thank you!!
You are welcome!
Paul and Reagan: this is just superb! Paul knows his stuff, and how to understand Revelation--much needed in churches, instead of theories from ambitious dreamers (dispensationalism). I hope Paul will take this kind of teaching to more of us Anabaptists.
As Chester points out (see his comment below), all the vivid visions of Revelation are saying essentially the same thing: the people of God confronting the kingdom of darkness, and how to have hope.
Thanks for this feedback! We have a few more episodes coming with Paul soon, and I hope we can make more with him in the future.
1:06:05 "Again to use the mark of the beast versus the mark of God imagery, that I am faced throughout my whole life with the temptation to be marked by the beast instead of being marked by God. . If I choose to wed myself to a certain political party because I think because I think it will advance the kingdom of God or something. Revelation never pictures God's people doing that. It pictures God's people bearing witness and suffering. . Am I actually risking being marked more by the likeness or image of the beast than by the image and likeness of the lamb?"
Excellent.
This was very good! Thank you for sharing and God bless!
Glad you enjoyed it!
36:38 "But what I am really passionate about is saying, No, Revelation needs to be rehabilitated. . . It is a weird text, but it is weird for completely different reasons than some of us grew up thinking it was weird. It is not weird because it is talking about tanks and nuclear warfare. It is weird because it was written in this ancient genre. But that is good news for us . . . It is not a code but it is a pair of glasses that we are supposed to view our lives and the world through. John wrote it to people in the first century expecting them to understand it, and to order their lives accordingly. That is the goal of apocalyptic literature. It is NOT a kind of Nostradamus style secret code into the future. It speaks of how God will climatically be victorious in the future. It is meant as John himself says, the point of this is to overcome."
Thank you for drawing attention to this.
25:07 I'm not sure how the letter R corresponds to 100. Roman numerals for 100 is C. R is the 18th letter of the Roman alphabet. Maybe you explained it later? I'm still partway through.
Great teaching. Thanks for this!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for having this conversation. But I do have a slight concern. While Paul did a good job at representing some of the best scholarship on this topic, I was a bit disappointed with the lack of citations, or at the very least recognition of that scholarship. This would have done three things. 1) recognize those whose ideas he is indebted to. 2) provide accountability that the he is participating in a community of thinkers on this topic, and not just making things up. 3) provide resources for those who want to learn more. If there is any way for that to be put in a pinned comment, that would be appreciated.
Thanks
My understanding of Revelation has been shaped by many influences over years of study and teaching, and as you point out (and per my mentions of scholarship in the episode) these insights are well represented in the field today. If people are interested in digging further, a few places I'd point them to get started would be Beale's commentary on Revelation (long or short version), Bauckham's Climax of Prophecy, Alexander's From Eden to New Jerusalem, and resources from BibleProject on Revelation. While not perfect, McKnight's Revelation for the Rest of Us also contains helpful material, especially on seeing Revelation as "glasses." Also see Tom Schreiner's new commentary on Revelation; it was from him years ago that I first heard that Revelation teaches the same message as the rest of the NT--a hugely important insight for me in subsequent study.
Several ways to interpret this. Mystery babylon is also described as having killed the prophets of old. Rome didnt kill the prophets, that was Jerusalem.
I found this talk interesting, but confusing at the same time. Not sure if I understood everything correctly, but it sounded to me that what was said is that most of Revalations is not to be taken literally. I can understand that there probably are a lot of symbolic things it this book, but when you read in the Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, it seems like the early Christians would have taken things literal like the falling of stars and the mark of the beast to name a few. Maybe I'm just not understanding things properly..
We don't have to start out with some modern reinterpretation of what apocalyptic literature is. Nor do we have to draw on extrabiblical sources like the Sybilline Chronicles. We can look at the book of Daniel and how it parallels Revelation, and connect things in the two books. And we can look at how parts of Daniel were fulfilled in the past and expect that the prophecies that haven't been fulfilled yet will occur in the same way. An idealist living in Daniel's time would look at his prophecies that have already been fulfilled in our time - such as the kingdoms of Daniel 2 - and say, well, to make this relevant, we have to believe this is just about evil kingdoms at all times! But it wasn't. It had specific things that were fulfilled. Alexander the Great was an actual man who fulfilled the "goat with the prominent horn" of Daniel 8, and his kingdom split into literally four kingdoms as the vision showed. And Antiochus Epiphanes was a literal man who fulfilled the other horn in vs 9. Idealists would have looked at all that and said, "Jesus, the church, evil forces of all times, whatever". But it's not. It had specific fulfillments.
If the idealist view is correct, why was it only held by the Alexandrian school in the early church? The Alexandrian school (Clement of Alexandria, Origen) were heavily influenced by Greek philosophy - they were more open to incorporating Greek philosophical ideas into their theology, and allegorical interpretation was a big part of Greek philosophy. But the dominant view of the first three centuries - until Augustine - was futurist and premillennial - although there were some futurist amillenialists as well, such as Victorinus. It would be incorrect to say that they were dispensationalist - they didn't quite put everything together in that way. And the details of their futurist interpretation varied somewhat - they didn't always take the whole of Revelation 4-22 in the future. But they believed there would be a final Antichrist just before the return of Christ, who was the "little horn" of Daniel 7 and the "man of sin" of II Thess. 2, whom Christ will destroy at His coming; they believed he would reign for 3 1/2 weeks or 7 weeks (again, they varied), just prior to Christ's return. They connected Daniel 7, Daniel 9, II Thess. 2, the "Antichrist" in I John, and one of the beasts in Revelation 13 (again, it varied - Hippolytus said the 2nd beast was Antichrist, Victorinus said the 1st beast) together to form their picture of the Antichrist. They interpreted the two witnesses of Revelation 11 literally - that there will be two prophets (some said Enoch and Elijah, others suggested Moses or Elisha) who would literally prophecy for 3 and a half years and literally be killed by the Antichrist. Some - such as Irenaeus and Hippolytus - believed the Jewish temple would be rebuilt by Antichrist and he would literally sit in it.
I agree with his statement that Revelation teaches the same message as the rest of the New Testament (and the rest of the Bible), and that it is centered on Christ. I would just say that it can be both about the future, and relevant, and centered on Christ - for it is about the ultimate and final triumph of Christ. A text doesn't have to be about me and what I'm going through right now to be relevant to me. There is a lot more going on in the world than what is happening to me, and not everything in the Bible has to be about me. If I read Psalm 2:8, "Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession", and decide that God is promising to give me the nations as my inheritance, because it has to be relevant to me, is that in any way proper and correct? No. It's about Jesus. Jesus will receive the nations as an inheritance and will possess the entire earth. That verse being about something ultimately in the future doesn't make it irrelevant though. We look forward to it in hope.
There's also an interpretive key in Rev. 1:19 that he overlooked: "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this." This would be chapter 1 (the things which he has seen), chapters 2-3 (the things which are - the vision of the 7 churches), and chapters 4-22 - the things which will take place after this. (Note that in 4:1, John is called up to see visions of what will take place after this, confirming this interpretation). So chapters 4-22 are somehow temporally set apart from the vision of the 7 churches. This doesn't prove futurism, but it is suggestive nonetheless. Although the letters to the 7 churches address specific things in John's own day, we find them very useful to us, as warnings and promises to us as well ("he that overcomes" will get various rewards, etc.) and can see these as characteristic of churches around the world throughout the church age. Chapters 4-22, then, would come at the end of the age. This is confirmed by the parallels to other scriptures, mentioned in the comment above, which talk about things that will occur at the end.
@@mattyoder9441 Hi Matt. Thank you for this extensive engagement. Consider reading Paul's comment that is pinned under this video. He addresses some of your concerns.
My concern is that we Anabaptist are overplaying the "Left Behind" accusations. I can agree that it did more damage than good. But to now put down the newspaper and pickup the Sybilline Oracles (non biblical source) as a interpretive method for Revelation doesn't feel right either. Why not just use Daniel?
Also, is the current trend of Anabaptist too put down Dispensationalism and as we over correct we turn to Covenant theology (Greg Beale is and Wellum, Gentry and Oren Martin all grew up under a Covenant Theology background)? I'm not sure thats necessarily "correcting the ship".
If we have to read these under the "Apocalyptic Genres" that we deem as appropriate extra-biblical literature...how will it ever be possible for Christians to unite in interpreting the Bible?
1 John 3:3-12
When you say dispensational readers are reading "2 people groups" (Israel vs. the Church) into the scriptures. You are creating a either-or scenario that really has no place in being there. Israels distinction isn't created by us but is baked into the very passages of scripture as part of Gods plan. Its not unheard of for God to have diverse plans for humanity. He created women to be diverse in there role from men. Jesus's person as the Son is to be under the headship of the Father. The Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have diverse roles. He picked Sarah w/Isaac instead of Hagar w/Ishmael...same with Jacob instead of Esau. The Church has diverse roles within (elders, deacons, etc...) it as well. There are diversity of gifts from the Holy Spirit. The fact that God chose Israel out of all the peoples of the earth and gave them a task separate from the other nations (to be a blessing to the nations...) doesn't mean God is picking and choosing one over the other. His plan of salvation is the same for a Jew as a Gentile (by Grace we are saved through Faith...see Hebrews 11 to see how the faith of the OT saints mirrors ours as Gentiles). If God so chooses to establish a future, physical reign of 1000years here on earth and He plans to reign over His people the physical, ethnic Jew's AND He plans to bless the nations (plural...diverse) through His people (yes, there are diverse nations in the 1000yr reign see Rev. 20:3,8 + eternal state see Rev. 21: 24,26, 22:2...not 1 nation)...then its His prerogative to do so, not ours. We can't approach the scriptures with the thought of, "well....that doesn't seem right so it can't be right"...then we are putting our presuppositions and emotions above Gods Word.
Secondly, the idea that the New Testament takes priority over the Old Testament is a faulty way to read Revelations in my opinion (and no...I'm not emphasizing the OT over the NT here). Its ONE book and its ALL Gods Divine and Holy Word. We should be able to look at the harmony of the OT rather than say things get "redefined" when the NT comes into being. Keep in mind...there are TWO comings of Christ. If some things in the OT are not implicitly or explicitly fulfilled in the NT then that means there is still time for them to reach fulfillment in the 2nd Coming of Christ.
Genre in reading the scripture? New concept? Any scriptural proof for this?
As a Historical Premillennialist I have lost most of my trust in Anabaptist eschatology and am rather disappointed with this episode. Anabaptist have traditionally been Amillennial and it has rob them from a proper understanding of the end times. The book of revelation is futuristic in its content. The purpose of the book is found in its title - REVELATION. The book describe the events that will lead up to the REVELATION of Jesus Christ. The curtain is pulled back and Jesus is revealed from heaven as the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDs. To try and spiritualize chapters and verses is to rob the text from its intended purpose. The beast is an actual person that will soon be unveiled. The 144,000 don’t represent the fullness of Gods people but Jews as the context clearly indicates, these will evangelize during the tribulation period. I also noticed that Ron didn’t touch Rev 20 which is a most beautiful chapter and something that every Christian should anticipate and believe as a literal event that will literally happen on this earth. Also, any eschatology that does not include Gods covenant people the Jews is an unbiblical eschatology. Jesus is returning to Jerusalem. Have you ever wondered why? Yes, as David’s greater son, He will literally rule the world from there with a rod of iron in world wide empire. Have you noticed that Israel and Jerusalem are currently the epicentre of the world? Have you noticed the rise in Jew hatred in the world? This is not a coincidence. To have a teaching on Daniel or Revelation or any other prophetic text (there are many) without mentioning the Jewish people, is to have failed in a sound, biblical hermeneutics of scripture. Furthermore Jesus is returning as the Lion of the tribe of JUDAH! It’s important to know Him as such.
Maranatha
Thank you for sharing this, James. Paul's comment that is pinned at the top of the comments list responds to some of your concerns.
I'm sorry Paul but I accidently referred to you as Ron for some reason.
.
Is it actually that complicated
Do you have something less complicated to propose?
Yes. Believe what it says. Not what you think it might mean. When it says that folks will not be able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast. BELIEVE IT. When it says that Christ will reign on this earth for a thousand years BELIEVE IT. When it says that a city will come down out of heaven and thet nothing defiled will enter in BELIEVE IT. It wasn't meant to be complicated. So that only scholars can tell the rest of us what it means. God bless
Thank you for sharing this proposal, Sam.
You mentioned that the woman in chapter 17 represents Rome, but I think of her as representing unfaithful Israel in contrast to the woman in chapter 12. The two women may also represent the true Christians contrasted with Roman Christianity, the Roman state religion. The two beasts in chapter 13 represent the Roman empire and Roman Christianity. It's a picture of that unholy union of church and state. Among other things, the beast with two horns like a lamb and the voice of the dragon may be considered a cryptic reference to the Septuagint. Apparently, most Christians in the USA have futurist interpretations of symbols in Revelation, including the two witnesses in chapter 11. I see the two witnesses as symbolic of the Law and the Prophets, Moses and Elijah. They may be considered as symbols of the Hebrew Scriptures that Gentile conquerors would've gazed upon without understanding the text. The Roman conquerers would have neglected to put the sacred scrolls in a 'genizah' and give them a proper burial according to the Jewish custom.
Thank you for sharing this, Hamilton.
@AnabaptistPerspectives I'm no great authority, and I don't claim to have a perfect understanding of Revelation. I am grateful for your presentation, which is a refreshing change from the widespread Dispensationalist and Christian Zionist teachings. I will refrain from making comments for a while and keep on with my private devotions, my studies, and my struggle with the passions.
Understood, but you are welcome to leave comments :-)