My Rheem R22 unit was installed in 1981, and is still working too. The condenser fan was replaced 12-15 yrs ago, and caps around every 5 yrs is all the repairs needed... and it works hard each year in SE Texas!
HVAC tech of 15 yrs here, still running both of the original 1989 r22 2.5 ton systems in the house I purchased in 2012. Will continue to run these units til their dying breath. I have upgraded from the original carrier natural draft furnaces.
Got to get government/ EPA out of our lives…making us miserable and poor. Next president needs to reverse these draconian executive order and mandates …leave alone what’s working right!
HVAC service tech for 20 years. I tell customers the same... Unless they develop a leak (warn them we charge about $300/lb for R22) or the compressor is shot, go ahead and run it till it dies. Or, look at how much they're paying for electricity and what they could save by upgrading. Not to mention the rebates that are currently available for going high efficiency and are quickly going away as it becomes standard. There's no point in offering any rebate when high efficient equipment becomes standard. So you'll end up paying more for the same equipment by waiting. I leave it up to the customer. I just make it clear that a lot has changed the past 20 years. A lot more is going to change.
The phase-out for R454b is on the radar in Europe. They found out about the “forever chemicals” known as PFAS that are in this refrigerant but NOT R32. Of course DuPont will come out with a “new & safe” gas just in time for everyone to buy new A/C units. Don’t worry, you WILL get used to this sort of thing after a few more times.
Yeah planned obsolescence… can’t stand DuPont I tell everyone I know to watch dark waters lol. That’s crazy I didn’t think 454b was being used in Europe already? I thought it was a blend of R32 and 1234yf and they haven’t been using it in the field yet? Weird I’ll have to do more research
@@TheHVACDopeShow 454b may not be currently use in Europe, my research on refrigerant options lead me to see how much stuff they were looking at due to PFAS, R32 was not included. I’m currently working on planning a replacement of a running 38 year old R22 Goodman. The last tech that was here to change out a capacitor, said the company owner directed service that no more refrigerant services would be performed on units that used banned refrigerants and customers were told these units just need to be replaced. Nobody could give me a good answer as to why they want to sell systems with another evolving refrigerant ban R410a, nor why the supposedly 25% more expensive 454b units can’t be priced yet. Do I need to say what their response was when I asked about products manufactured by the Daikin group, which they do not sell?
@@MechagodzillaDraws all refrigerants evaporate once they hit our atmosphere. There are colored jugs that represent one type versus another, but they are getting ready to change that and all will be white jug with red colored top. Better hope if you need refrigerant the tech gives you the right type your unit needs in the future. If your unit gets the wrong type that it needs it won't work and due to price of refrigerants not a cheap fix. If you were able to look at a certain refrigerant thru a sight glass as an example, you wouldn't be able to tell what type or kind it is. It's a clear looking liquid thru a refrigerant sight glass.
@@AustinAirCoif you had three glass bottles, one containing vodka, one with white tequila, and one with rubbing alcohol, would you be able to tell them apart just by looking? 😋
I want a R290 (propane) or C02 mono-block system .. and I’ll wait until they are here as I live in a colder region and these are better options for hot water.
Just replaced my 23 year old unit after it had a "rapid unscheduled evacuation" 💨 after the compressor locked up. I ran the numbers and the leaked gas is equivalent to 4 YEARS of a car's CO2 output. So I get it, but I'm also glad my new unit is R410a 😬
I've got a couple more years and I'm out of this game and can't wait , I already have a van full of different refrigerants and recovery tanks , I'm sick of this BS
I had a 16 year old Lennox system that required emergency repair this past week. Rather than spending money to repair, I decided to put that money towards a new system, although had the repair not been required I would have waited until this coming summer 2025 to put in a system with a new refrigerant. The new system is a 2 ton Lennox EL18XCV and a SL280UHV. I have a two-story 2,450 square-foot home. This system is for the upstairs. I was interested in your thoughts on both units (EL18XCV & SL280UHV) ,and curious as to what you think a reasonable price range for installation of this system should have been. The system also included lifetime parts and labor (compressor & heat exchange included) for me the original purchaser however if property is sold, the new owner would get what’s left up to 10 years coverage but lifetime for me, 60 months no interest financing, and an iComfort S4 thermostat. I live in the Dallas Fort Worth area and I understand cost can vary from the Denver/Phoenix areas. Also, any possibility you’ll be expanding to the Dallas Fort Worth area?
Get 3 quotes for the same product and you'll have "reasonable"... I believe Dallas is lower in labor than Denver areas but still that system is probably 20k? I don't sell Lennox so I don't know they're cost but our here I've seen bids for that system combo around that price but the reputable companies in your area will all charge somewhat similarly based on their overhead so 3 bids is the easiest way to solve that. It's a good system as far as efficiency and quiet and people like them, but just make sure the installers know what they're doing. Reviews will normally tell you what you need to know about the install quality, I wouldn't worry about 1 or 2% of reviews being bad but if all the install reviews are iffy then it might be install shortcuts. We do things by the book and still have about a 1-2% warranty rate where things break because they're just manufactured en masse and therefore stuff hapoens
I have a Carrier AC in SWFL that was installed in 2015. My preferred HVAC company mentioned that I might want to replace before a breakdown before the change over to stay out of the guinea pig early adopter zone. I'm getting the vibe that the technicians are just unsure of the future vs giving me a sales tactic. They told me about the requirement to remove and replace the new refrigerant but they also mentioned as you did that it was also true of 410 but it was loosened up a bit once things settled down. I'm not sure if it was a sales pitch or just informational. They know I'm a bit more informed than most so it felt like we were having more of a casual discussion of the pros and cons of various scenarios on what to do in the future when the inevitable happens. Will I be able to get spare parts for an over 10 year old system? How long will it be cost effective to repair vs replace? I can spend at any point in the future $10k+ on a new system and an additional $3k on end of life repairs or spend up to $1000 a year to keep my seer 17 system running as long as I can get parts. It starts to feel about even if I don't get significant efficiency savings.
You don’t have to replace it and the only thing you might have a hard time getting is a compressor but honestly that shouldn’t even be a problem for at least a decade… we can still get R22 compressors but just can’t get R22 condensers (entire outside unit / box). If you’re comfortable waiting and not in a hurry I wouldn’t rush, the R32 equipment (Daikin Goodman and Amana) is already battle tested in the field in Europe and other markets overseas so I wouldn’t worry about biting the bullet as an early adopter, 454B is carriers refrigerant and my understanding (what I’ve been told) is that this refrigerant is in fact new so you are more of a guinea pig there. Carrier is pretty reputable so either way you’re probably in ok shape
So we are in the process of replacing/ shopping our Trane central air unit as the high cost of R-22 and so on. We were told do it now as the units will be 30% higher in 2025, many techs really don’t feel the refrigerants are going to be as efficient , way more costly to fix, and these new ones have to have a monitor, wtf! a monitor…..seriously I think our government hates us🙄
After watching the video I'm honestly still unclear when its worth waiting and when it is not. I understand your point of the planned obsolescence, but we still have to play into their game at the end of the day, and which way would you go? If it were your house and you were about to purchase a system (not an emergency replacement), would you wait a few months for a R32 redesign of the Daikin Fit for example? Or would you buy a non-R32 Fit today, not regrets? Thank you for your videos, I learn a lot from them.
Its hard to answer as the HVAC tech because I’ve bought 410a systems personally knowing this is happening… short answer is yes I’d wait for R32. But I’ll give you more context, we’ve installed two new systems one at the shop and our home knowing this was happening within a few years, but at this point if you can wait I’d probably buy an R32 system just because it’s the newer stuff. But I’m also comfortable working on my own equipment if something fails so as much as I’d like to exclude that bias it’s still there… I think if it was my moms house or close friends house I’d be 50/50 split with no regrets because the benefit of 410a is that there’s no shutoff safety switches for refrigerant leaks like there are on the R32 air handlers - which is good because you have to actually fix leaks now and can’t just top off a perpetual leak… but it’s bad for the same reason that in the middle of summer if a coil failed or something, then the R32 safety circuit would prevent it from starting until the leak is actually fixed. This just makes me nervous if I’m trying to get something to cool for a night in the middle of summer in an extreme climate like Phoenix I couldn’t top it off with a lb and come back the next day, I’d have to deal with it right away. Practically speaking R32 is a better call but I am starting to see you can get good deals on SEER1 410a equipment now that the SEER2 stuff is phased in fully, so if price is a determining factor and you can get a smokin deal that’s another thing that might sway me just knowing that I’m getting some close out equipment. If I lived in a hot coastal climate like coastal Florida with a 10 year replacement cycle I probably wouldn’t think twice… for what it’s worth Daikin is honoring 410a equipment failures with R32 equipment if there’s ever a catastrophic failure which is a very nice warranty for people buying stuff right now having peace of mind. Long answer but lots to consider, hope that helped and didn’t confuse you more, it should be a non issue soon in most places because we’re already getting R32 equipment in a few of the models.
@@TheHVACDopeShow Awesome, thanks for the insights. Yeah I'm in the position where I got a recent ducted daikin fit quote that was a couple thousand less than last year's quote. Thought it was too good to be true, now I'm realizing its a 410a clearance discount. I'm in the PNW so I am tempted to get the 410a system at 2-3K less than I had anticipated. But we're already so backwards in the US with refrigerants, it is a shame to get stuck with the older one. But the discount is pretty decent and makes it much more possible to recoup the system cost over it's life. That is cool to know a warranty replacement would be honored with a r32 system.
I am in that exact position. I just lost my heating system due to a flood and I have solar panels so I figured I would upgrade to a heat pump. It's just before October and starting to get cold so I am on a time crunch. I decided to go with the r410 system because I did not want to be a guinea pig, it was more affordable and many of the HVAC techs around my area have not been trained on the 454 or at least that's what my guy says. Not that I could have afforded it but I wanted to get a Ford lightning and decided against it because I did not want to be a guinea pig and that was a wise decision, if I was in the market for a new truck. That thing has had a boatload of problems from what I've heard. I can only say and assume that the new 454 systems will need time to work out the kinks. Also, if you download and look at the numbers in the extended data sections, specifically bosch, and actually watch one of his past videos on what those numbers mean and do the math you can see that the r410 is actually more efficient than the r454. I looked around and could not find much information to support that heat pumps are very expensive to maintain if you do the preventive maintenance and service them. Therefore parts shouldn't be an issue. There's also warranties with the units, I know Bosch has a 10-year warranty on parts for its premium which is the system that I will be going with. Trust me I put a lot of time and effort into the research and ended up going with the r410.
The reason why I was considering the Bosch Ultra over the premium was because it worked better in colder climates but I figured by going with the premium and the cost difference as well as the better efficiency, I would be better off just installing an electric heat kit. I might have even installed one on the ultra so, really what's the point.
Don’t forget R32 already makes up 50% of R410a , a small technicality you most likely can’t light R32 straight from the bottle, there’s a very small window of R32 and oxygen mixture that can ignite R32 , I can give you ore details about this if you need it, thanks 🙏
The problem isn't necessarily the refrigerant only. The mixture includes oil that circulates with the refrigerant, the oil as it were has a much lower burn or ignition point. Under the right conditions even R410a can ignite and burn. Don't believe me? Watch this> the era of get it on tape rather than oh put the fire out? ua-cam.com/users/shortsW4PiBIyNjx0
It's flammable, therefore explosive under pressure. R22 had a head pressure of a little over 200-250. They've been working on no flame connectors. But they'll make sure all installations and maintenance are done by their unmasked crooks
Being 410A is blended already R-32 & 125 it just blows my mind that it was “suppose” to be a huge epa environmentally healthy refrigerant to begin with… now boom 💥 it’s impacting our climate “ “ such an $$$ scheme .
So there were 2 things you said outright that you would address, and then just didn't: 1) "should I wait?" you didn't even touch on it. 2) efficiency. So... should I rush to get a 410A system while I still can? or should I wait for an R32 system?
I was allowing people to make their own decision based on the facts I was presenting but short answer is, It depends... do you need a new unit now? Then buy what's available. There's a lot of unknowns still but the R32 systems will be more efficient but only available through Amana Goodman and Daikin. 454b is the other manufacturers. If you need a new unit and the new refrigerant is not available yet then buy what's available but if you can wait 2-3 months most systems and system types will be available Q1 2025. We already have R32 units in single and two stage available now but inverters will be next year. Depends on your situation
I installed a one ton R32 mini-split in my master bedroom earlier this year in Florida. I picked R32 because it's a single component refrigerant that will be substantially cheaper to charge if it's low. R454 and R410 are two component refrigerants, both of which have R32 as one component. To recharge the R454 or R410, ALL of the remaining refrigerant has to be recovered and sent off to be recycled... expensive. Then, and only then, can you put new R454/ R410 in.
I get the sense that simple, less pressure, smaller system that r32 is going to make better financial sense that’s the r454b over time even with its higher thermal space. Next round will likely be r32 and sadly carrier is out.
I agree I think R32 is a better refrigerant because the charge is lower and systems are smaller which means higher efficiency, and smaller systems as opposed to some of the massive condensers we’ve had to have with 410A
As a person looking into installing a mini split system. What do think will happen to unsold system going into the new year. Will they be returned to the manufacturer or do they go on sale to make way for the systems with the new refrigerate.
They’re already kind of priced accordingly but they won’t be manufacturing 410a equipment as of 2025 so I’m not sure honestly. It will likely stay at a slight discount like it is currently
They'll push their old crap at even higher prices. See in this game, the hundreds of millions of homeowners are stupid suckers. Just ask any sub cool expert.
Any R410 system built before January 1, 2025, will be allowed to be sold even if it's 2028 or later. But don't fall for that trap, R410 is going the same way as R22 and just as quick. It's better to buy an R32 system and not worry about the availability of the refrigerant down the road.
I live in the Southern California high desert. Average nightime winter low is 32 degrees. I am more concerned with having good a/c in the summer over heating in the winter. Would the daikon fit be a good fit for me?
In the high desert, so your highs get over 110F? If your home was under 2k square feet yes that's great (we install these in Phoenix and they work great) but if you can afford the DZ9 or any 20 seer like that those tend to handle 110-120f temps better. The new Daikin fit enhanced can handle them and they work but we've found that over 110F they will be running in boost mode until it drops below 100 or 105 depending on how your system is set up, so they don't modulate as much. Hope that helps, short answer is yes they work but over 105/110 they'll be running in boost constantly (which is fine there's no downside it's just not modulating like it would on milder days). This typically means at night when it drops below 100F then the system is super quiet inside again because indoor fan isn't running full steam ahead and it can modulate
I know, EPA is kind of a joke. I'm going to talk about CO2 refrigerant heat pumps soon and put out a few videos on the topic because in this country it's very convoluted with how it's regulated
3 місяці тому
Love watching your videos. I live in Montana and have radiant floor heating but no air conditioning. Watching your videos has sold me on the Daikin Altherma which I understood was coming out in the US this fall. Currently my water is heated by an electric boiler. I am looking for the efficiency of a heat pump with the added bonus of cooling. So far I have been unable to find a source for the Altherma in the US. Do you have any new information about the Altherma? Rick
Right on! Yes it’s coming out q4 of this year, maybe q1 of 2025, but as soon as it’s out I’m going to probably do an install video on one for people and review of performance and features etc.
Yeah it's definitely a money grab, manufacturers reps have told me the same thing... this seems ironic because R32 is apparently being phased out in Europe but there's no replacement in Europe for it yet
R32 requires a lower charge so the equipment is smaller for the same efficiency which is an added benefit... 454B is similar but just requires a larger charge / larger system. Capacity is same
I really don't agree with the rhetoric right now of pushing installs of 410a systems this year because "the new refrigerant" will cause prices to increase. I don't see that playing out much over the natural increase in prices. I do foresee many unscrupulous contractors pushing for system replacements on the basis of "410a has been banned". It just seems like every change is being used as an opportunity to scare the consumer into making unnecessary purchases.
Yeah I’m in the same boat when I heard people saying “hurry get your 410a while it last” I was a little surprised… it’s really not a big deal to me either way and Daikin is backing there warranties with R32 units so if someone buys a 410a system in the next month and the coil goes bad in a few years or something, they’re replacing it with an R32 coil not the other way around.
R454B will be patented until 2030, both refrigerants will be high cost and there is no full production stop planned at this time. No matter what customers are going to be paying more, just depends on if the customer wants to have lower initial cost.
@@FreonChugger I'm not a fan of 454B. From what I've seen, as R32 has become more available the price has dropped. As of the current price it's just slightly above 410a. R32 being single component will lend itself better to recycling.
I’m in this boat right now. Leak in the system that first identified itself 4 years ago, recharged twice but now the compressor is shot and with the system being 18 years old, recommended to completely replace. I am leaning towards sticking with 410A.
they are selling 410a pound for 100$ after next years they will be selling 200$ most likely. i have evap coil leaking system i put stop leak and sticking until this dies
Correct 410a shouldn't skyrocket like r22 because its phaseout schedule is over 15 years out. And there's drop ins. R22 didn't jump until 2020/2021 when it was no longer made domestically. But either way if your system is out it's not the end of the world a lot of the R32 units have hit the shelves, we're just waiting on the inverters from Daikin but the 14 and 16 SEER R32 systems are out. But if you want 410a you'll be in good shape too it's not that big of a deal
prices continue to go up because of more and more complicated government regulations . need to cut the budgets of multiple 3 letter agencies including the EPA
There have been many tests done on r454b in regards to topping the refrigerant off when needed and the result was just as it was with r410a. You can just top it off as needed without problems just as we have always done with r410a. The temperature glide is just over 2° so fractionation should not be any problem according to the manufacturer. R454b will be the dominant refrigerant in the USA for central air conditioning systems. Vrf and mini splits will be dominated by R32. I Hope this helps.
Until it gets banned in about 10 years due to PFAS forever chemicals in the R1234yf part of it. They should have all just stuck with R32. No PFAS chemicals. Cheaper too.
Do we know if this is going to affect equipment and installation costs? I’m in the market for a new furnace and AC. I could possibly wait 1-2 years, but I’ve been told costs will go up 20% in 2025. Live in NY.
Yes everything is going up it's out of control... it has nothing to do with refrigerant, it's just inflation. Our insurance just went up 100% this year based on "general rate increase", absurd. R32 won't be a 20% premium or price hike but buying sooner rather than later is probably a good idea because every cost including wages has really hiked recently
Not really, it’s kind of exaggerated watch some of the videos on the flammability tests it won’t stay lit without an external flame source like a lighter or something… thus the a2l classification and “mild” flammability rating
In a nutshell if your system is working and can wait then R32 imo is better only because it's battle tested in Europe and not a new refrigerant, only new in USA. If you NEED a system asap (system broke down / failed compressor) get a 410a system it's not a big deal and you need a new system. If you want a brand that only does 454B then like some have mentioned you might wait until they work out the kinks, but honesty there's not a noticeable difference. The efficiency will be less than 10% higher on these systems across the board. The only super high efficiency stuff is mini splits anyways so if you're not going with mini splits there's not a big downside if you buy a 410a system now... hope that helped and didn't confuse you. It depends because the R32 stuff is out now in single and two stage but R32 inverter Daikin fits are Q1 of 2025 from what I've heard. So you have a lot of options
@@TheHVACDopeShow Great advice Thanks. In my area all they sell is Lennox (3 contractors) so well see if they offer R32 in 2025. My AC/Furnace system is old but not failed, 12yrs old. I'm might wait for R32. Didn't realize that R32 was the way to go. And R32 is still almost as efficient as 410A I felt we were taking a step back ?
Figures a change is coming. I just replaced my R-22 system that was installed in 200 with a R-410A last month, and a new refrigerant type is coming soon...
It’s honestly not the end of the world… as you can see some of the techs advocate for 410a systems since you don’t have mitigation controls from the mild flammability, which is a plus because your systems won’t stop running with 410a if you have a mild leak. There’s 16 years left before the phaseout of 410a so it’s not an overnight thing
@@TheHVACDopeShow , yeah, but the issue will arise in 20 years like I had just now though, My system needed the refrigerant replaced (I screwed a screw into my coil like an idiot when replacing a capacitor) and the cost of R-22 is just crazy high. I could have had the hole brazed and then refilled the system, but the cost of the R-22 + labor and still having a 20 year old system with a refrigerant that is getting harder to find and just more expensive as time goes on vs the cost of a new system and not having to worry about it for decades, well, new system won. If I could have had R-22 for $10/lb, sure, but at $100-150/lb, no thanks. Question is, will R-410A be priced like R-22 is now in 20 years?
@@blupupher The price of 410a has already started to rise. Over the next few years there is no question the price will increase further. The interesting thing is the price of r22 has actually come down. I was able to purchase r22 at around $50/lb this year where is years past it was nearly double that. Price follows demand and even though there is no more r22 being imported or produced, the demand has dropped substantially with all the systems being replaced.
@@TheHVACDopeShow BUT if everyone does this stays with R410a equipment? There will be a shortage of R410a as early as the next drop down which I believe is 2028 or 2029. There won't be enough supply to meet demand, prices will explode. *You voted, and you're welcome* how dare you bring politics into it? Nothing is done in this country without *VOTES* if you didn't vote, you voted for it. This will not be like R22, there is no massive stock pile to work thru.
Not interchangeable at all no, they have different design pressures and operating conditions. You will definitely damage your system this way. They have “drop in” replacements after they’re phased out like Nu22 (R422B) which can be used in place of R22 for example and has similar properties, but no you can’t drop 410a in an R32 or 454B system
I believe so and the jist is they’re slightly more efficient buts it’s an EPA / GWP based play… I’ve looked at the new numbers and they’re not that noticeable in terms of giant leaps forward in efficiency. Some of the ductless systems have some high numbers but all in all pretty close
I’m confused the EPA required a lower GWP refrigerant, but you “feel” like the equipment manufactures are changing to R32 to increase equipment sales. In the words of detective Friday, Just the facts ma’am.
This is a money play, always has been always will be even reps at the parts houses agree… they don’t GAF about the EPA or the planet, this is about planned obsolescence unfortunately. There’s other refrigerants better than R32 with lower GWP, but there’s no patent so there’s nothing in it for them. No patent on R32 either buts its a lot more expensive than propane or butane or CO2
@@TheHVACDopeShowOr use ammonia! My parents built a house in 1967 with an AC charged with ammonia and natural gas fired. Very cold, very efficient, and very cheap to use. All equipment was outside, there was a heat exchanger to bring chill water inside. It had antifreeze mixed in because the water would get below freezing. With no compressor, it was very simple and very reliable. It'll be funny to see if we come full circle to the "good old days." Did I mention zero GWP and zero ozone depletion for ammonia???
Not sure if it is true, but I have heard that the new systems using R32 and R454B will cost significantly more for the R410A equivalent system. Not sure if this is true and if so, maybe it's just "inflation", these systems are more complex, or the manufacturer's need to recover NRE. Any thoughts on this?
The parts cost on our end went up about 5% but this is sort of normal. We get a 1-4% price hike every year, during the pandemic it was crazy, we had prices skyrocket overnight (8 price increases in two years) because commodities jumped. R32 is battle tested in Europe for over a decade so there's no costs they're trying to recoup here. I think "significant" price increases are from inflation since 2019. It's crazy how much we had our prices go up, insurance everything is through the roof
FYI; The phase out has been delayed by one year. This new Interim Final Rule allows for the inventory of higher-GWP HFC equipment manufactured or imported before January 1, 2025, to be installed until January 1, 2026.
oh wow but whenever i replace my leaking system i will go with r32 or r454b i won't install 410a because they will charge crazy prices in future for refrigerant
I have watched and enjoyed a number of your vids and find them informative, please accept this as constructive criticism your editing is Migraine inducing with all the sharp chops and jerks, exhausting to watch.
Solstice Spacepak but not sure if the 410a is the only one available or if r32 is yet. Daikin Altherma is soon if not already, very close! I’d have to check on Fujitsu or the other brands but I know that stuff is just now starting to rollout
Yes it’s kind of annoying but it already got expensive in 2020-22, and didn’t come back down until 23’, but refrigerant manufacturer is basically a subsidiary of DuPont aka the ones from the dark waters movie who are the reason the whole planet has teflon in their blood
TLDR phase down of refrigerants is more about profit than about the environment. R-32 was invented in the later 60s, why didn't it just replace the CFC or replace R22 then? Money, it's all about money and it'll always be that way. Now we've gone from refrigerant like 410 being around 95-140 a bottle to R32 and 454B be 250-350 and only be 20LBS of gas per new bottle......
My 4 year old condenser just blew the coil. It's under warranty. I got a quote of $1,600 and $1,800 to install the warranty coil. I can't bring myself to pay that because $750 of the quote is for 7.6lb of r-410a. I'm fine with the labor charge, but a 1000% markup on refrigerant is crazy! So, I just purchased an entire system to replace both units. The total cost is just under double the repair cost, and I have all new. I couldn't pay $100/lb for something that costs $10/lb. The new condenser comes pre charged. I also bought a 25lb tank of refrigerant for $250 to have on hand.
EPA does what the agenda directors decide, not industry. The entire premise for these New Refrigeranta is the Ozone Hole they cannot define how old is, has NOT gone away with the elimination of CFCs, so now they Pose HFCs do the same thing het are articles that propose Satellite atmosphere reentries even StarLink Units cause the provlem. Along with that the agency uses a Definition of GWP valie, a Long considered Dead Theory called Global Warming, only this time is calculated at 100 Years Out and only as a Global Warming Potential. More Non Science games as the last games failed miserably and fail yet today. The agency with CARB are a standing Farce.
Fluck. The sale guy didn’t tell me about the 410a phrasing out in 2025. He sold me a 410a system. Just got it installed. What Can I do? Can I have them take it out and install another system with the new Freon? 454b? Or R32?
I wouldn't worry about it... ironically we literally have people "rushing" to get their 410a system while they still can before getting forced to get a "new experimental" refrigerant. Honestly it would be the last thing I stress out about because 410a is 50% R32 anyways but we have people who are concerned with R32's flammability but they're literally already using a blend of it. If you're concerned with being able to get refrigerant (if needed) in the future, they will have 410a for decades, and also have drop in replacements if needed
410A has R125 and R-32 in it I don’t get this change over fuck the EPA. Like you said it’s all money ploy or cash grab with these new mitigation safeties gunna be more money to repair
It’s funny some people have argued with me about this and I’m kinda like bruh… since when is it NOT about 💰😂… even my vendors and I were joking about it, kind of obvious IMO
@@CarriUSA And because they're mildly flammable, building codes are going to change with regards to the areas in which the units are installed. Mo money no money no money
Our pricing for some of the systems came in and they're no more than our normal price hikes from manufacturers of 1-4% that we get every year so I don't think this is accurate. Nothings going to change, just another forced phaseout money grab to make sure people upgrade their equipment... so I disagree they're not substantially more by any means
the editing of your video creates a weirdly artificial aspect to it because in places where there ought to be slight pauses, either there are no pauses or they're so short as to be unnaturally so.
I ran the numbers based on the bosch Ultra (454) vs. Premium (410) and 410 appears more efficient, although minimal. These gwp nuts are costing the general public millions. The only people benefitting are the corporations.
Planned obsolescence it drives me nuts... just forcing phase outs for profits sake is what it seems like. Good luck convincing me that subsidiaries of DuPont give two sh**s about the environment lol, it's all about the $$$$
The difference between some GWP values, might be because some report the 25 year average, and others the 100y average. The 25y value is usually a lot worse for substances with short atmospheric half-life.
As a atmospheric component how does one measure .005 of a single percent? That is called a trace minimum. CO2 is .045 of a single percent and is Barely definably measurable in Open Air.
@@DDM502001 measuring CO² in air is doable in high school chemistry class, even at lower levels. Adsorption gas chromatography with mass spectrometry is perfect for ultra low concentration analysis.
Hundreds of millions of homeowners p. Hmm, you'd think it would be rhe cheapest to buy and install, instead of rhe most expensive systems going. They're pricing themselves out of business. It's not worth it.
Hvac tech with 37 years experience.... wait until the last possible moment to go new technology, new refrigerant... etc. Let someone else work out the manufactures bugs.... from, lessons learned the hard way. Manufactures do not care about me or you!
Great advice, the industry is getting some early feedback on new freon and it's suspect at best as well of the new technology added to units just waiting to break. I was told on a single stage system, here in Florida it's going to run 2 or 3K more come 2025.. Getting a new one myself next month.
Why do mfgs. limit residential systems to 5 tons/60K btus? My home has 3 5 ton one two and a half and one 2 ton and one one and a half ton units each with its own ducts and condensors and air handlers.of six complete systems. With changing refrigerant and varing types of collants in my different aged systems this for me this causes many issues with servicing and costs to replace for entire system would be daunting and not solve the problem long term as the refrigerants keep changing. Ray Stormont
Probably duct sizing since one system doesn’t work well for a large home anyways because you’re not going to have a central air Handler… this is going be a LONG phaseout so I literally would not worry about it because chances are your 6 systems will break at various intervals and it’s not going to create as many issues as you might think. Techs are used to this and also 410a is going to be available for basically another 20 years, and manufactured for another 15 years so it’s going to be a slow process
Practicality and cost. At 5 tons you are looking at 60 amp per unit on single phase. And also just like @TheHVACDopeShow duct sizing and many other system design challenges arise. Once you get into 3 phase 10+ ton VRV or VRF systems are available for large residential or light commercial settings. But there is a cost factor too where multiple 5 ton or less units make more financial sense.
All bput the money ! People will not be able to afford ac. Not that flamable? Carrier has all these safety devices in airhandler or furnace . Meetings i got to sounds like they're passing liability on the contractor
Compressors and coils? I’m talking about the actual refrigerant itself will be available for purchase for a while, you’re right about condensers though those are being phased out next year… but those warranties are still covered for 10-12 years so they’d be replaced with a R32/454 system under warranty if that happened (compressor or coil failure under warranty on 410a system)
Then why not phase in CO2 or other refrigerants that are even better? In the USA it’s about making money period, even my vendors are in agreement on this lol there’s no question they’ll be another phaseout in 20 years. Why phase in a refrigerant that’s already talked about being phased out in Europe then? I think it’s naive to think otherwise honestly but that’s just my opinion 😁 and several other industry professionals opinions as well. Sure they’ll be improvements in efficiencies and tech, but in this country it’s all about the 💰
Great video. However how does r454b and r32 do when osa is over 95 degrees. Testing in the lab is normally is preformed at/under 95 degrees osa. Being in the desert I’ve seen 125-135 osa on a rubber roof or you have multiple ac’s discharging into one other in July or August than it’s 145-148 degrees I’ve seen 500 to 525 psi using r410 because of the heat. I guess we’ll find out later under those conditions after the check cleared.
Allegedly they extended it through 2025 to be installed to allow manufacturers to clear out existing inventory but yes this is the last year to get 410 equipment basically, and the refrigerant will be around for a while longer
My Trane supplier just bought a shit load of 410a equipment so we can keep installing it as long as possible. I can still remember the changeover to 410a and all the LEAKS associated with it because manufacturers just changed the metering device and kept the old welds and seals. What a nightmare. I was still installing r22 I think until 2006. Then they sold units charged with nitrogen that could be used with 22. So there are ways around it.
Tell the people how much all these freons cost per pound. Almost every house in America has whole house systems, and boy did everyone in the business know how to put it to these millions of homeowners. It's no $1.00 per 12 oz can. Pure gouge with some of the best excuses you can come up with. Sub cool... LOL 😂😂
🤖 *Points at videos of people freezing water by cold boiling it under near vacuum* Now? *Connect water filled panels considering room for expansion of frozen water, increase the vacuum, and vent all the energy from the water to form ice* Add a fan and something to catch condensed water. If you use all food grade metals? Add a static dust filter for stuff in the air + a solar powered UVC light for Germs in the water + Metal aeration with air blown over the UVC light on the way to water to give it that yummy river in the sunlight taste. Refrigerant = Water.. How good does ice cool air? 😇 Regenerative Ice technology.. 🧐Those cooling systems are complex. Why? 😘 *Note that this design can be done totally manual pump so can be adopted by Amish to prevent needing to go cut ice + have no tech approved cooling*
I mean the r410 systems just don’t last that long already. The higher pressures doomed that. I’ll take a lower pressure system please :). Looking forward to skipping r410 on my home systems.
Not sure what you’re referencing because your comment doesn’t really say anything about what you disagree with, and then (sounds like) try’s to attack my intelligence🤔… let’s be real - if you think refrigerant phaseouts are going to save the planet you’re as gullible as they come. It’s about corporate greed and planned obsolescence, if it wasn’t we’d be transitioning to R290 / natural refrigerants and Monoblock technology because there is zero chance of a phaseout. Since when does the EPA actually GAF about the environment or consumer? They fined DuPont 16 MILLION for dumping C8 (Teflon) into the river when the company literally caused BILLIONS in damages. It’s a joke. But it’s fine, you can just keep trying to insult me instead of explaining yourself when you’re confronted with facts that challenge your belief structure. And I’ll keep putting out content with my actual beliefs, using my brain, because I don’t base my life on the what the peanut gallery has to say👍
@@TheHVACDopeShow so reducing gwp is a….bad thing, a false narrative? Not sure what message you are trying to send. One of the few good things humans have done to combat climate problems is phasing out CFCs how is this any different?
@@TheHVACDopeShow I agree with you. My only feedback would be that the transition from the GWP/ODP explanation to the planned obsolesce was clunky. I am glad that there will be support for 410a systems out to 2040. I have one 410a system and one r22. When my r22 system springs a leak, I will have to replace it due to the cost of r22. But I've gotten 18 years out of it (so far) here in DFW, so it has been solid, and I have gotten my money's worth out of it. With support for 410a out to 2040, I'm hoping that the cost of refrigerant will not be a big factor in determining when to replace the 410a system.
I feel you but honestly don’t sweat it, R410 is going to be around for a LONG while… I would not lose sleep over it and there’s perks to having 410a. It won’t be phased out for over a decade + so it’s not going anywhere anytime soon.
My Rheem R22 unit is 19 years old and still fine.
Rheem green box ac units last for ever. But as they get old 15+ you will see difference of yr power bill increases
And eventually the compressor seals start to crap out... but if it's working it's working! As they say if ain't broke don't fix it
My coal fired furnace is going strong 100 years later
SO IS MINE !!!!
My Rheem R22 unit was installed in 1981, and is still working too.
The condenser fan was replaced 12-15 yrs ago, and caps around every 5 yrs is all the repairs needed... and it works hard each year in SE Texas!
HVAC tech of 15 yrs here, still running both of the original 1989 r22 2.5 ton systems in the house I purchased in 2012. Will continue to run these units til their dying breath. I have upgraded from the original carrier natural draft furnaces.
Based
My 89 r-22 unit just quit 😢
Got to get government/ EPA out of our lives…making us miserable and poor. Next president needs to reverse these draconian executive order and mandates …leave alone what’s working right!
HVAC service tech for 20 years.
I tell customers the same...
Unless they develop a leak (warn them we charge about $300/lb for R22) or the compressor is shot, go ahead and run it till it dies.
Or, look at how much they're paying for electricity and what they could save by upgrading. Not to mention the rebates that are currently available for going high efficiency and are quickly going away as it becomes standard. There's no point in offering any rebate when high efficient equipment becomes standard. So you'll end up paying more for the same equipment by waiting.
I leave it up to the customer. I just make it clear that a lot has changed the past 20 years. A lot more is going to change.
The phase-out for R454b is on the radar in Europe. They found out about the “forever chemicals” known as PFAS that are in this refrigerant but NOT R32. Of course DuPont will come out with a “new & safe” gas just in time for everyone to buy new A/C units. Don’t worry, you WILL get used to this sort of thing after a few more times.
Yeah planned obsolescence… can’t stand DuPont I tell everyone I know to watch dark waters lol. That’s crazy I didn’t think 454b was being used in Europe already? I thought it was a blend of R32 and 1234yf and they haven’t been using it in the field yet? Weird I’ll have to do more research
@@TheHVACDopeShow 454b may not be currently use in Europe, my research on refrigerant options lead me to see how much stuff they were looking at due to PFAS, R32 was not included. I’m currently working on planning a replacement of a running 38 year old R22 Goodman. The last tech that was here to change out a capacitor, said the company owner directed service that no more refrigerant services would be performed on units that used banned refrigerants and customers were told these units just need to be replaced. Nobody could give me a good answer as to why they want to sell systems with another evolving refrigerant ban R410a, nor why the supposedly 25% more expensive 454b units can’t be priced yet. Do I need to say what their response was when I asked about products manufactured by the Daikin group, which they do not sell?
@@TheHVACDopeShowWhat does Freon Look like Is it like mist or water
@@MechagodzillaDraws all refrigerants evaporate once they hit our atmosphere. There are colored jugs that represent one type versus another, but they are getting ready to change that and all will be white jug with red colored top. Better hope if you need refrigerant the tech gives you the right type your unit needs in the future. If your unit gets the wrong type that it needs it won't work and due to price of refrigerants not a cheap fix. If you were able to look at a certain refrigerant thru a sight glass as an example, you wouldn't be able to tell what type or kind it is. It's a clear looking liquid thru a refrigerant sight glass.
@@AustinAirCoif you had three glass bottles, one containing vodka, one with white tequila, and one with rubbing alcohol, would you be able to tell them apart just by looking? 😋
I want a R290 (propane) or C02 mono-block system .. and I’ll wait until they are here as I live in a colder region and these are better options for hot water.
Hopefully they’re here soon! Might be waiting a while but if you don’t need it yet then no rush 😁
I was reading about this in like 2006 crazy how long change takes
Just replaced my 23 year old unit after it had a "rapid unscheduled evacuation" 💨 after the compressor locked up. I ran the numbers and the leaked gas is equivalent to 4 YEARS of a car's CO2 output. So I get it, but I'm also glad my new unit is R410a 😬
I've got a couple more years and I'm out of this game and can't wait , I already have a van full of different refrigerants and recovery tanks , I'm sick of this BS
I don’t blame you!
@@larryhatfield7372 we all are!
Facts
I had a 16 year old Lennox system that required emergency repair this past week. Rather than spending money to repair, I decided to put that money towards a new system, although had the repair not been required I would have waited until this coming summer 2025 to put in a system with a new refrigerant. The new system is a 2 ton Lennox EL18XCV and a SL280UHV. I have a two-story 2,450 square-foot home. This system is for the upstairs. I was interested in your thoughts on both units (EL18XCV & SL280UHV) ,and curious as to what you think a reasonable price range for installation of this system should have been. The system also included lifetime parts and labor (compressor & heat exchange included) for me the original purchaser however if property is sold, the new owner would get what’s left up to 10 years coverage but lifetime for me, 60 months no interest financing, and an iComfort S4 thermostat. I live in the Dallas Fort Worth area and I understand cost can vary from the Denver/Phoenix areas. Also, any possibility you’ll be expanding to the Dallas Fort Worth area?
You do have to pay for labor on lifetime parts
Get 3 quotes for the same product and you'll have "reasonable"... I believe Dallas is lower in labor than Denver areas but still that system is probably 20k? I don't sell Lennox so I don't know they're cost but our here I've seen bids for that system combo around that price but the reputable companies in your area will all charge somewhat similarly based on their overhead so 3 bids is the easiest way to solve that. It's a good system as far as efficiency and quiet and people like them, but just make sure the installers know what they're doing. Reviews will normally tell you what you need to know about the install quality, I wouldn't worry about 1 or 2% of reviews being bad but if all the install reviews are iffy then it might be install shortcuts. We do things by the book and still have about a 1-2% warranty rate where things break because they're just manufactured en masse and therefore stuff hapoens
I have a Carrier AC in SWFL that was installed in 2015. My preferred HVAC company mentioned that I might want to replace before a breakdown before the change over to stay out of the guinea pig early adopter zone. I'm getting the vibe that the technicians are just unsure of the future vs giving me a sales tactic. They told me about the requirement to remove and replace the new refrigerant but they also mentioned as you did that it was also true of 410 but it was loosened up a bit once things settled down. I'm not sure if it was a sales pitch or just informational. They know I'm a bit more informed than most so it felt like we were having more of a casual discussion of the pros and cons of various scenarios on what to do in the future when the inevitable happens. Will I be able to get spare parts for an over 10 year old system? How long will it be cost effective to repair vs replace?
I can spend at any point in the future $10k+ on a new system and an additional $3k on end of life repairs or spend up to $1000 a year to keep my seer 17 system running as long as I can get parts. It starts to feel about even if I don't get significant efficiency savings.
You don’t have to replace it and the only thing you might have a hard time getting is a compressor but honestly that shouldn’t even be a problem for at least a decade… we can still get R22 compressors but just can’t get R22 condensers (entire outside unit / box). If you’re comfortable waiting and not in a hurry I wouldn’t rush, the R32 equipment (Daikin Goodman and Amana) is already battle tested in the field in Europe and other markets overseas so I wouldn’t worry about biting the bullet as an early adopter, 454B is carriers refrigerant and my understanding (what I’ve been told) is that this refrigerant is in fact new so you are more of a guinea pig there. Carrier is pretty reputable so either way you’re probably in ok shape
So we are in the process of replacing/ shopping our Trane central air unit as the high cost of R-22 and so on. We were told do it now as the units will be 30% higher in 2025, many techs really don’t feel the refrigerants are going to be as efficient , way more costly to fix, and these new ones have to have a monitor, wtf! a monitor…..seriously I think our government hates us🙄
After watching the video I'm honestly still unclear when its worth waiting and when it is not. I understand your point of the planned obsolescence, but we still have to play into their game at the end of the day, and which way would you go? If it were your house and you were about to purchase a system (not an emergency replacement), would you wait a few months for a R32 redesign of the Daikin Fit for example? Or would you buy a non-R32 Fit today, not regrets? Thank you for your videos, I learn a lot from them.
Its hard to answer as the HVAC tech because I’ve bought 410a systems personally knowing this is happening… short answer is yes I’d wait for R32. But I’ll give you more context, we’ve installed two new systems one at the shop and our home knowing this was happening within a few years, but at this point if you can wait I’d probably buy an R32 system just because it’s the newer stuff. But I’m also comfortable working on my own equipment if something fails so as much as I’d like to exclude that bias it’s still there… I think if it was my moms house or close friends house I’d be 50/50 split with no regrets because the benefit of 410a is that there’s no shutoff safety switches for refrigerant leaks like there are on the R32 air handlers - which is good because you have to actually fix leaks now and can’t just top off a perpetual leak… but it’s bad for the same reason that in the middle of summer if a coil failed or something, then the R32 safety circuit would prevent it from starting until the leak is actually fixed. This just makes me nervous if I’m trying to get something to cool for a night in the middle of summer in an extreme climate like Phoenix I couldn’t top it off with a lb and come back the next day, I’d have to deal with it right away. Practically speaking R32 is a better call but I am starting to see you can get good deals on SEER1 410a equipment now that the SEER2 stuff is phased in fully, so if price is a determining factor and you can get a smokin deal that’s another thing that might sway me just knowing that I’m getting some close out equipment. If I lived in a hot coastal climate like coastal Florida with a 10 year replacement cycle I probably wouldn’t think twice… for what it’s worth Daikin is honoring 410a equipment failures with R32 equipment if there’s ever a catastrophic failure which is a very nice warranty for people buying stuff right now having peace of mind. Long answer but lots to consider, hope that helped and didn’t confuse you more, it should be a non issue soon in most places because we’re already getting R32 equipment in a few of the models.
@@TheHVACDopeShow Awesome, thanks for the insights. Yeah I'm in the position where I got a recent ducted daikin fit quote that was a couple thousand less than last year's quote. Thought it was too good to be true, now I'm realizing its a 410a clearance discount. I'm in the PNW so I am tempted to get the 410a system at 2-3K less than I had anticipated. But we're already so backwards in the US with refrigerants, it is a shame to get stuck with the older one. But the discount is pretty decent and makes it much more possible to recoup the system cost over it's life. That is cool to know a warranty replacement would be honored with a r32 system.
I am in that exact position. I just lost my heating system due to a flood and I have solar panels so I figured I would upgrade to a heat pump. It's just before October and starting to get cold so I am on a time crunch. I decided to go with the r410 system because I did not want to be a guinea pig, it was more affordable and many of the HVAC techs around my area have not been trained on the 454 or at least that's what my guy says.
Not that I could have afforded it but I wanted to get a Ford lightning and decided against it because I did not want to be a guinea pig and that was a wise decision, if I was in the market for a new truck. That thing has had a boatload of problems from what I've heard. I can only say and assume that the new 454 systems will need time to work out the kinks.
Also, if you download and look at the numbers in the extended data sections, specifically bosch, and actually watch one of his past videos on what those numbers mean and do the math you can see that the r410 is actually more efficient than the r454.
I looked around and could not find much information to support that heat pumps are very expensive to maintain if you do the preventive maintenance and service them. Therefore parts shouldn't be an issue. There's also warranties with the units, I know Bosch has a 10-year warranty on parts for its premium which is the system that I will be going with. Trust me I put a lot of time and effort into the research and ended up going with the r410.
The reason why I was considering the Bosch Ultra over the premium was because it worked better in colder climates but I figured by going with the premium and the cost difference as well as the better efficiency, I would be better off just installing an electric heat kit. I might have even installed one on the ultra so, really what's the point.
Don’t forget R32 already makes up 50% of R410a , a small technicality you most likely can’t light R32 straight from the bottle, there’s a very small window of R32 and oxygen mixture that can ignite R32 , I can give you ore details about this if you need it, thanks 🙏
I didn’t realize it was just R32 and R125, that’s interesting to note! Not much of a change after all I guess!
The problem isn't necessarily the refrigerant only. The mixture includes oil that circulates with the refrigerant, the oil as it were has a much lower burn or ignition point. Under the right conditions even R410a can ignite and burn. Don't believe me? Watch this> the era of get it on tape rather than oh put the fire out? ua-cam.com/users/shortsW4PiBIyNjx0
It's flammable, therefore explosive under pressure. R22 had a head pressure of a little over 200-250.
They've been working on no flame connectors. But they'll make sure all installations and maintenance are done by their unmasked crooks
Being 410A is blended already R-32 & 125 it just blows my mind that it was “suppose” to be a huge epa environmentally healthy refrigerant to begin with… now boom 💥 it’s impacting our climate “ “ such an $$$ scheme .
So there were 2 things you said outright that you would address, and then just didn't: 1) "should I wait?" you didn't even touch on it. 2) efficiency.
So... should I rush to get a 410A system while I still can? or should I wait for an R32 system?
I was allowing people to make their own decision based on the facts I was presenting but short answer is, It depends... do you need a new unit now? Then buy what's available. There's a lot of unknowns still but the R32 systems will be more efficient but only available through Amana Goodman and Daikin. 454b is the other manufacturers. If you need a new unit and the new refrigerant is not available yet then buy what's available but if you can wait 2-3 months most systems and system types will be available Q1 2025. We already have R32 units in single and two stage available now but inverters will be next year. Depends on your situation
My Daikin AC in Italy from 2015 is R32
I’m sure it is 😁 They’ve been using R32 for a while in Europe / other countries so it’s by no means a “new” refrigerant.
Also in Indonesia using R32 since 2015 😅
I installed a one ton R32 mini-split in my master bedroom earlier this year in Florida. I picked R32 because it's a single component refrigerant that will be substantially cheaper to charge if it's low. R454 and R410 are two component refrigerants, both of which have R32 as one component. To recharge the R454 or R410, ALL of the remaining refrigerant has to be recovered and sent off to be recycled... expensive. Then, and only then, can you put new R454/ R410 in.
I get the sense that simple, less pressure, smaller system that r32 is going to make better financial sense that’s the r454b over time even with its higher thermal space. Next round will likely be r32 and sadly carrier is out.
I agree I think R32 is a better refrigerant because the charge is lower and systems are smaller which means higher efficiency, and smaller systems as opposed to some of the massive condensers we’ve had to have with 410A
Just Subscribed for your Very well Explained info 👍👍
Thanks! Glad you found it helpful
As a person looking into installing a mini split system. What do think will happen to unsold system going into the new year. Will they be returned to the manufacturer or do they go on sale to make way for the systems with the new refrigerate.
They’re already kind of priced accordingly but they won’t be manufacturing 410a equipment as of 2025 so I’m not sure honestly. It will likely stay at a slight discount like it is currently
@@TheHVACDopeShow thanks for the reply. I'm just on the fence on if I should buy now or wait until closer to the end of the year.
They'll push their old crap at even higher prices. See in this game, the hundreds of millions of homeowners are stupid suckers. Just ask any sub cool expert.
Any R410 system built before January 1, 2025, will be allowed to be sold even if it's 2028 or later. But don't fall for that trap, R410 is going the same way as R22 and just as quick.
It's better to buy an R32 system and not worry about the availability of the refrigerant down the road.
I live in the Southern California high desert. Average nightime winter low is 32 degrees. I am more concerned with having good a/c in the summer over heating in the winter. Would the daikon fit be a good fit for me?
In the high desert, so your highs get over 110F? If your home was under 2k square feet yes that's great (we install these in Phoenix and they work great) but if you can afford the DZ9 or any 20 seer like that those tend to handle 110-120f temps better. The new Daikin fit enhanced can handle them and they work but we've found that over 110F they will be running in boost mode until it drops below 100 or 105 depending on how your system is set up, so they don't modulate as much. Hope that helps, short answer is yes they work but over 105/110 they'll be running in boost constantly (which is fine there's no downside it's just not modulating like it would on milder days). This typically means at night when it drops below 100F then the system is super quiet inside again because indoor fan isn't running full steam ahead and it can modulate
@ my house is 1,670 square feet and it rarely gets above 106 degrees.
Great content. Thanks for the education.
Thanks for watching and glad you found it helpful!
South America and many many other countries still use R22 the best refrigerant
I know, EPA is kind of a joke. I'm going to talk about CO2 refrigerant heat pumps soon and put out a few videos on the topic because in this country it's very convoluted with how it's regulated
Love watching your videos. I live in Montana and have radiant floor heating but no air conditioning. Watching your videos has sold me on the Daikin Altherma which I understood was coming out in the US this fall. Currently my water is heated by an electric boiler. I am looking for the efficiency of a heat pump with the added bonus of cooling. So far I have been unable to find a source for the Altherma in the US. Do you have any new information about the Altherma?
Rick
Right on! Yes it’s coming out q4 of this year, maybe q1 of 2025, but as soon as it’s out I’m going to probably do an install video on one for people and review of performance and features etc.
as an hvac contractor here ...costs is my main gripe & explaining the changes COSTS to our customer base .....We all see it as an Money Grab
Yeah it's definitely a money grab, manufacturers reps have told me the same thing... this seems ironic because R32 is apparently being phased out in Europe but there's no replacement in Europe for it yet
Do both R32 and R-454B have the same cooling capacity? Which as more?
R32 requires a lower charge so the equipment is smaller for the same efficiency which is an added benefit... 454B is similar but just requires a larger charge / larger system. Capacity is same
I really don't agree with the rhetoric right now of pushing installs of 410a systems this year because "the new refrigerant" will cause prices to increase. I don't see that playing out much over the natural increase in prices. I do foresee many unscrupulous contractors pushing for system replacements on the basis of "410a has been banned". It just seems like every change is being used as an opportunity to scare the consumer into making unnecessary purchases.
Yeah I’m in the same boat when I heard people saying “hurry get your 410a while it last” I was a little surprised… it’s really not a big deal to me either way and Daikin is backing there warranties with R32 units so if someone buys a 410a system in the next month and the coil goes bad in a few years or something, they’re replacing it with an R32 coil not the other way around.
Buyer beware.
Just installed an R32 unit today. Only a 3% increase in price vs 410. New furnaces when they come will be 8%
R454B will be patented until 2030, both refrigerants will be high cost and there is no full production stop planned at this time. No matter what customers are going to be paying more, just depends on if the customer wants to have lower initial cost.
@@FreonChugger I'm not a fan of 454B. From what I've seen, as R32 has become more available the price has dropped. As of the current price it's just slightly above 410a. R32 being single component will lend itself better to recycling.
Jump Cuts like mad 🤯
I know it was too much we’re trying to tone it down…
Max Headroom 😂
Gave me a head ache to listen to. But good content. Keep it up.
I’m in this boat right now. Leak in the system that first identified itself 4 years ago, recharged twice but now the compressor is shot and with the system being 18 years old, recommended to completely replace.
I am leaning towards sticking with 410A.
they are selling 410a pound for 100$ after next years they will be selling 200$ most likely. i have evap coil leaking system i put stop leak and sticking until this dies
It’s readily available, will be until 2040. I would.
Correct 410a shouldn't skyrocket like r22 because its phaseout schedule is over 15 years out. And there's drop ins. R22 didn't jump until 2020/2021 when it was no longer made domestically. But either way if your system is out it's not the end of the world a lot of the R32 units have hit the shelves, we're just waiting on the inverters from Daikin but the 14 and 16 SEER R32 systems are out. But if you want 410a you'll be in good shape too it's not that big of a deal
Lots of split systems being used to help out your cental system.
prices continue to go up because of more and more complicated government regulations . need to cut the budgets of multiple 3 letter agencies including the EPA
There have been many tests done on r454b in regards to topping the refrigerant off when needed and the result was just as it was with r410a.
You can just top it off as needed without problems just as we have always done with r410a.
The temperature glide is just over 2° so fractionation should not be any problem according to the manufacturer.
R454b will be the dominant refrigerant in the USA for central air conditioning systems.
Vrf and mini splits will be dominated by R32.
I Hope this helps.
Until it gets banned in about 10 years due to PFAS forever chemicals in the R1234yf part of it. They should have all just stuck with R32. No PFAS chemicals. Cheaper too.
Good to know! We'll see how it goes
Thanks for this.
My pleasure!
Do we know if this is going to affect equipment and installation costs? I’m in the market for a new furnace and AC. I could possibly wait 1-2 years, but I’ve been told costs will go up 20% in 2025. Live in NY.
Yes everything is going up it's out of control... it has nothing to do with refrigerant, it's just inflation. Our insurance just went up 100% this year based on "general rate increase", absurd. R32 won't be a 20% premium or price hike but buying sooner rather than later is probably a good idea because every cost including wages has really hiked recently
Get a furnace and a heat pump..
So when u have a leak you now have a fire hazard when it hits your hot water heater pilot or the furnace lights up? Or even flipping a light switch.
Not really, it’s kind of exaggerated watch some of the videos on the flammability tests it won’t stay lit without an external flame source like a lighter or something… thus the a2l classification and “mild” flammability rating
When the government is your worse enemy
THIS NEW REFRIGERANT IS TOTAL SOUTH PARK ENGINEERING......POTENTIAL I HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO LOOSE MY MIND DOES THAT MAKE ME CRAZY! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Thanks!
So do we wait or still get 410A system because its still the better option if were in the market?
In a nutshell if your system is working and can wait then R32 imo is better only because it's battle tested in Europe and not a new refrigerant, only new in USA. If you NEED a system asap (system broke down / failed compressor) get a 410a system it's not a big deal and you need a new system. If you want a brand that only does 454B then like some have mentioned you might wait until they work out the kinks, but honesty there's not a noticeable difference. The efficiency will be less than 10% higher on these systems across the board. The only super high efficiency stuff is mini splits anyways so if you're not going with mini splits there's not a big downside if you buy a 410a system now... hope that helped and didn't confuse you. It depends because the R32 stuff is out now in single and two stage but R32 inverter Daikin fits are Q1 of 2025 from what I've heard. So you have a lot of options
@@TheHVACDopeShow Great advice Thanks. In my area all they sell is Lennox (3 contractors) so well see if they offer R32 in 2025. My AC/Furnace system is old but not failed, 12yrs old. I'm might wait for R32. Didn't realize that R32 was the way to go. And R32 is still almost as efficient as 410A I felt we were taking a step back ?
@@TheHVACDopeShow My other concern is price hikes in 2025, so I was leaning to get one now before Lennox jacks the price up....
Figures a change is coming.
I just replaced my R-22 system that was installed in 200 with a R-410A last month, and a new refrigerant type is coming soon...
It’s honestly not the end of the world… as you can see some of the techs advocate for 410a systems since you don’t have mitigation controls from the mild flammability, which is a plus because your systems won’t stop running with 410a if you have a mild leak. There’s 16 years left before the phaseout of 410a so it’s not an overnight thing
@@TheHVACDopeShow , yeah, but the issue will arise in 20 years like I had just now though,
My system needed the refrigerant replaced (I screwed a screw into my coil like an idiot when replacing a capacitor) and the cost of R-22 is just crazy high.
I could have had the hole brazed and then refilled the system, but the cost of the R-22 + labor and still having a 20 year old system with a refrigerant that is getting harder to find and just more expensive as time goes on vs the cost of a new system and not having to worry about it for decades, well, new system won. If I could have had R-22 for $10/lb, sure, but at $100-150/lb, no thanks.
Question is, will R-410A be priced like R-22 is now in 20 years?
@@blupupher The price of 410a has already started to rise. Over the next few years there is no question the price will increase further.
The interesting thing is the price of r22 has actually come down. I was able to purchase r22 at around $50/lb this year where is years past it was nearly double that. Price follows demand and even though there is no more r22 being imported or produced, the demand has dropped substantially with all the systems being replaced.
@@TheHVACDopeShow BUT if everyone does this stays with R410a equipment? There will be a shortage of R410a as early as the next drop down which I believe is 2028 or 2029. There won't be enough supply to meet demand, prices will explode. *You voted, and you're welcome* how dare you bring politics into it? Nothing is done in this country without *VOTES* if you didn't vote, you voted for it. This will not be like R22, there is no massive stock pile to work thru.
Don't worry about it. If you get 20yrs out of a new system your fortunate. Just set it and forget it.
Is is technically possible to use any kind of refrigerant? Are they interchangeable or can the equipment be damaged if a refrigerant is changed?
Not interchangeable at all no, they have different design pressures and operating conditions. You will definitely damage your system this way. They have “drop in” replacements after they’re phased out like Nu22 (R422B) which can be used in place of R22 for example and has similar properties, but no you can’t drop 410a in an R32 or 454B system
Have there been comparisons between energy cost to operate of new refrigerant units vs r410a units?
I believe so and the jist is they’re slightly more efficient buts it’s an EPA / GWP based play… I’ve looked at the new numbers and they’re not that noticeable in terms of giant leaps forward in efficiency. Some of the ductless systems have some high numbers but all in all pretty close
I’m confused the EPA required a lower GWP refrigerant, but you “feel” like the equipment manufactures are changing to R32 to increase equipment sales. In the words of detective Friday, Just the facts ma’am.
This is a money play, always has been always will be even reps at the parts houses agree… they don’t GAF about the EPA or the planet, this is about planned obsolescence unfortunately. There’s other refrigerants better than R32 with lower GWP, but there’s no patent so there’s nothing in it for them. No patent on R32 either buts its a lot more expensive than propane or butane or CO2
You obviously are unfamiliar with how political Lobbying drives industry. 😂
Well it’s definitely not in the interest of Americans…..maybe we should all boycott paying our taxes🤔
@@TheHVACDopeShowOr use ammonia! My parents built a house in 1967 with an AC charged with ammonia and natural gas fired. Very cold, very efficient, and very cheap to use. All equipment was outside, there was a heat exchanger to bring chill water inside. It had antifreeze mixed in because the water would get below freezing. With no compressor, it was very simple and very reliable. It'll be funny to see if we come full circle to the "good old days."
Did I mention zero GWP and zero ozone depletion for ammonia???
Not sure if it is true, but I have heard that the new systems using R32 and R454B will cost significantly more for the R410A equivalent system. Not sure if this is true and if so, maybe it's just "inflation", these systems are more complex, or the manufacturer's need to recover NRE. Any thoughts on this?
That’s my concern too
The parts cost on our end went up about 5% but this is sort of normal. We get a 1-4% price hike every year, during the pandemic it was crazy, we had prices skyrocket overnight (8 price increases in two years) because commodities jumped. R32 is battle tested in Europe for over a decade so there's no costs they're trying to recoup here. I think "significant" price increases are from inflation since 2019. It's crazy how much we had our prices go up, insurance everything is through the roof
FYI; The phase out has been delayed by one year.
This new Interim Final Rule allows for the inventory of higher-GWP HFC equipment manufactured or imported before January 1, 2025, to be installed until January 1, 2026.
Good to know!
oh wow but whenever i replace my leaking system i will go with r32 or r454b i won't install 410a because they will charge crazy prices in future for refrigerant
I have watched and enjoyed a number of your vids and find them informative, please accept this as constructive criticism your editing is Migraine inducing with all the sharp chops and jerks, exhausting to watch.
No worries thanks for the feedback will pass this along
What R-32 Air to Water Heat Pumps are available now in the U.S. in September of 2024? Daikin? Fujitsu?
Solstice Spacepak but not sure if the 410a is the only one available or if r32 is yet. Daikin Altherma is soon if not already, very close! I’d have to check on Fujitsu or the other brands but I know that stuff is just now starting to rollout
Then the greedy, corrupt, refrigerant manufactures and distributors can make double digit profit increases annually for the next 20 years on 410A!
Yes it’s kind of annoying but it already got expensive in 2020-22, and didn’t come back down until 23’, but refrigerant manufacturer is basically a subsidiary of DuPont aka the ones from the dark waters movie who are the reason the whole planet has teflon in their blood
TLDR phase down of refrigerants is more about profit than about the environment. R-32 was invented in the later 60s, why didn't it just replace the CFC or replace R22 then? Money, it's all about money and it'll always be that way. Now we've gone from refrigerant like 410 being around 95-140 a bottle to R32 and 454B be 250-350 and only be 20LBS of gas per new bottle......
Unfortunately seems to be the way things are going
My 4 year old condenser just blew the coil. It's under warranty. I got a quote of $1,600 and $1,800 to install the warranty coil. I can't bring myself to pay that because $750 of the quote is for 7.6lb of r-410a. I'm fine with the labor charge, but a 1000% markup on refrigerant is crazy! So, I just purchased an entire system to replace both units. The total cost is just under double the repair cost, and I have all new.
I couldn't pay $100/lb for something that costs $10/lb. The new condenser comes pre charged. I also bought a 25lb tank of refrigerant for $250 to have on hand.
Performance is far below any benefit
Man how many cuts did you have trying to make this video. Thank you for the info but phew that was choppy
No takes I think it’s just the editing style is too punchy
EPA being lobbied by the HVAC industry to keep you, the consumer, spending money.
EPA does what the agenda directors decide, not industry. The entire premise for these New Refrigeranta is the Ozone Hole they cannot define how old is, has NOT gone away with the elimination of CFCs, so now they Pose HFCs do the same thing het are articles that propose Satellite atmosphere reentries even StarLink Units cause the provlem. Along with that the agency uses a Definition of GWP valie, a Long considered Dead Theory called Global Warming, only this time is calculated at 100 Years Out and only as a Global Warming Potential. More Non Science games as the last games failed miserably and fail yet today. The agency with CARB are a standing Farce.
Fluck. The sale guy didn’t tell me about the 410a phrasing out in 2025. He sold me a 410a system. Just got it installed. What Can I do? Can I have them take it out and install another system with the new Freon? 454b? Or R32?
Yes you can but I don't think that's necessary unless you like to spend money
I wouldn't worry about it... ironically we literally have people "rushing" to get their 410a system while they still can before getting forced to get a "new experimental" refrigerant. Honestly it would be the last thing I stress out about because 410a is 50% R32 anyways but we have people who are concerned with R32's flammability but they're literally already using a blend of it. If you're concerned with being able to get refrigerant (if needed) in the future, they will have 410a for decades, and also have drop in replacements if needed
410A has R125 and R-32 in it I don’t get this change over fuck the EPA. Like you said it’s all money ploy or cash grab with these new mitigation safeties gunna be more money to repair
I don't disagree... its getting kind of annoying, all for moderate improvements in "GWP" I feel silly talking about it sometimes honestly
They can say they are getting rid of R22 and 410a because of GWP or ODP but I think we know it's due to 💵💰💲
Bingo
It’s funny some people have argued with me about this and I’m kinda like bruh… since when is it NOT about 💰😂… even my vendors and I were joking about it, kind of obvious IMO
I hope new president will stop this change and extra costs forced by an out of control EPA
You did not touch the subject of pricing. The new systems with the new refrigerants will cost considerably more than the existing systems
And they have to have monitors to boot. The more technology, the more failures, the higher the cost to fix.
@@CarriUSA And because they're mildly flammable, building codes are going to change with regards to the areas in which the units are installed. Mo money no money no money
Our pricing for some of the systems came in and they're no more than our normal price hikes from manufacturers of 1-4% that we get every year so I don't think this is accurate. Nothings going to change, just another forced phaseout money grab to make sure people upgrade their equipment... so I disagree they're not substantially more by any means
the editing of your video creates a weirdly artificial aspect to it because in places where there ought to be slight pauses, either there are no pauses or they're so short as to be unnaturally so.
I know the editing is a little too tight
410A has almost no glide, it’s very negligible, and most manufacturers state you can top it off.
We’ve topped it off and haven’t had issues
I ran the numbers based on the bosch Ultra (454) vs. Premium (410) and 410 appears more efficient, although minimal.
These gwp nuts are costing the general public millions. The only people benefitting are the corporations.
Planned obsolescence it drives me nuts... just forcing phase outs for profits sake is what it seems like. Good luck convincing me that subsidiaries of DuPont give two sh**s about the environment lol, it's all about the $$$$
My hope is that Trump puts a stop on the EPA stupidity and we stay with 410A and others that are non flammable.
The difference between some GWP values, might be because some report the 25 year average, and others the 100y average.
The 25y value is usually a lot worse for substances with short atmospheric half-life.
I will have to look into this because I’m actually not versed on refrigerant half lives, thanks for the comment and homework!😁
It’s a wonder we are all still alive 🙄
As a atmospheric component how does one measure .005 of a single percent? That is called a trace minimum. CO2 is .045 of a single percent and is Barely definably measurable in Open Air.
@@DDM502001 measuring CO² in air is doable in high school chemistry class, even at lower levels.
Adsorption gas chromatography with mass spectrometry is perfect for ultra low concentration analysis.
Hundreds of millions of homeowners p. Hmm, you'd think it would be rhe cheapest to buy and install, instead of rhe most expensive systems going. They're pricing themselves out of business. It's not worth it.
Hvac tech with 37 years experience.... wait until the last possible moment to go new technology, new refrigerant... etc. Let someone else work out the manufactures bugs.... from, lessons learned the hard way. Manufactures do not care about me or you!
I'm smarter than you
I doubt it @@kreep3r
@@kreep3r I doubt it
Great advice, the industry is getting some early feedback on new freon and it's suspect at best as well of the new technology added to units just waiting to break. I was told on a single stage system, here in Florida it's going to run 2 or 3K more come 2025.. Getting a new one myself next month.
Why do mfgs. limit residential systems to 5 tons/60K btus? My home has 3 5 ton one two and a half and one 2 ton and one one and a half ton units each with its own ducts and condensors and air handlers.of six complete systems. With changing refrigerant and varing types of collants in my different aged systems this for me this causes many issues with servicing and costs to replace for entire system would be daunting and not solve the problem long term as the refrigerants keep changing. Ray Stormont
Probably duct sizing since one system doesn’t work well for a large home anyways because you’re not going to have a central air Handler… this is going be a LONG phaseout so I literally would not worry about it because chances are your 6 systems will break at various intervals and it’s not going to create as many issues as you might think. Techs are used to this and also 410a is going to be available for basically another 20 years, and manufactured for another 15 years so it’s going to be a slow process
Practicality and cost. At 5 tons you are looking at 60 amp per unit on single phase. And also just like @TheHVACDopeShow duct sizing and many other system design challenges arise. Once you get into 3 phase 10+ ton VRV or VRF systems are available for large residential or light commercial settings. But there is a cost factor too where multiple 5 ton or less units make more financial sense.
All bput the money ! People will not be able to afford ac. Not that flamable? Carrier has all these safety devices in airhandler or furnace . Meetings i got to sounds like they're passing liability on the contractor
That not true 2040 lol Supply stores already telling the techs that they no longer sell parts for 410a
Compressors and coils? I’m talking about the actual refrigerant itself will be available for purchase for a while, you’re right about condensers though those are being phased out next year… but those warranties are still covered for 10-12 years so they’d be replaced with a R32/454 system under warranty if that happened (compressor or coil failure under warranty on 410a system)
In no way is it a planned obscolescance for manufactures to sell units.
Then why not phase in CO2 or other refrigerants that are even better? In the USA it’s about making money period, even my vendors are in agreement on this lol there’s no question they’ll be another phaseout in 20 years. Why phase in a refrigerant that’s already talked about being phased out in Europe then? I think it’s naive to think otherwise honestly but that’s just my opinion 😁 and several other industry professionals opinions as well. Sure they’ll be improvements in efficiencies and tech, but in this country it’s all about the 💰
Great video. However how does r454b and r32 do when osa is over 95 degrees. Testing in the lab is normally is preformed at/under 95 degrees osa. Being in the desert I’ve seen 125-135 osa on a rubber roof or you have multiple ac’s discharging into one other in July or August than it’s 145-148 degrees I’ve seen 500 to 525 psi using r410 because of the heat. I guess we’ll find out later under those conditions after the check cleared.
They use R32 overseas already in places like Saudi / Middle East so R32 is battle tested allegedly… but we shall see!
Carrier R22 still going strong after 28 years. Lower pressure refrigerants = drastically higher reliability.
So, I will not be able to buy new 410 A equipment by the end of 2024?
Allegedly they extended it through 2025 to be installed to allow manufacturers to clear out existing inventory but yes this is the last year to get 410 equipment basically, and the refrigerant will be around for a while longer
My Trane supplier just bought a shit load of 410a equipment so we can keep installing it as long as possible. I can still remember the changeover to 410a and all the LEAKS associated with it because manufacturers just changed the metering device and kept the old welds and seals. What a nightmare. I was still installing r22 I think until 2006. Then they sold units charged with nitrogen that could be used with 22. So there are ways around it.
We ARE CARBON BASED LIFE FORMS! HMMMMMM WHAT DOES THAT MEAN☠️⚰️🧠
Tell the people how much all these freons cost per pound. Almost every house in America has whole house systems, and boy did everyone in the business know how to put it to these millions of homeowners. It's no $1.00 per 12 oz can. Pure gouge with some of the best excuses you can come up with. Sub cool... LOL 😂😂
This editing is so jerky it's making me sick to my stomach.
This wasn’t the best I agree it’s choppy
GWP- bullshit
🤖 *Points at videos of people freezing water by cold boiling it under near vacuum* Now? *Connect water filled panels considering room for expansion of frozen water, increase the vacuum, and vent all the energy from the water to form ice* Add a fan and something to catch condensed water. If you use all food grade metals? Add a static dust filter for stuff in the air + a solar powered UVC light for Germs in the water + Metal aeration with air blown over the UVC light on the way to water to give it that yummy river in the sunlight taste. Refrigerant = Water..
How good does ice cool air? 😇 Regenerative Ice technology.. 🧐Those cooling systems are complex. Why? 😘 *Note that this design can be done totally manual pump so can be adopted by Amish to prevent needing to go cut ice + have no tech approved cooling*
How pointless these rules are for a non issue.
Tell me about it lol
u explained exactly why they're phasing it out and then chose to misunderstand it. good luck with your brain
Seriously! This is exactly NOT planned obsolescence. He explained gwp 30 seconds earlier. SMH
I mean the r410 systems just don’t last that long already. The higher pressures doomed that. I’ll take a lower pressure system please :). Looking forward to skipping r410 on my home systems.
Not sure what you’re referencing because your comment doesn’t really say anything about what you disagree with, and then (sounds like) try’s to attack my intelligence🤔… let’s be real - if you think refrigerant phaseouts are going to save the planet you’re as gullible as they come. It’s about corporate greed and planned obsolescence, if it wasn’t we’d be transitioning to R290 / natural refrigerants and Monoblock technology because there is zero chance of a phaseout. Since when does the EPA actually GAF about the environment or consumer? They fined DuPont 16 MILLION for dumping C8 (Teflon) into the river when the company literally caused BILLIONS in damages. It’s a joke. But it’s fine, you can just keep trying to insult me instead of explaining yourself when you’re confronted with facts that challenge your belief structure. And I’ll keep putting out content with my actual beliefs, using my brain, because I don’t base my life on the what the peanut gallery has to say👍
@@TheHVACDopeShow so reducing gwp is a….bad thing, a false narrative? Not sure what message you are trying to send. One of the few good things humans have done to combat climate problems is phasing out CFCs how is this any different?
@@TheHVACDopeShow I agree with you. My only feedback would be that the transition from the GWP/ODP explanation to the planned obsolesce was clunky. I am glad that there will be support for 410a systems out to 2040. I have one 410a system and one r22. When my r22 system springs a leak, I will have to replace it due to the cost of r22. But I've gotten 18 years out of it (so far) here in DFW, so it has been solid, and I have gotten my money's worth out of it. With support for 410a out to 2040, I'm hoping that the cost of refrigerant will not be a big factor in determining when to replace the 410a system.
Sounds like some socialist propaganda bullsh!t.
Wtf I just bought a new system 😐 😳.. this isn't fair 😤 😐 😔 😑 😒 😕
I feel you but honestly don’t sweat it, R410 is going to be around for a LONG while… I would not lose sleep over it and there’s perks to having 410a. It won’t be phased out for over a decade + so it’s not going anywhere anytime soon.
@@TheHVACDopeShow thank you 😊
Also, R-410 sounds like it'll be less expensive than the newer refrigerants.
I lost interest, you talk to much about nothing.
Dad...? Is that you?
Btw it's too not to
I don’t even have ac in my house.
Brave soul! Or you live by the beach?