Check out The Bread Code's UA-cam channel, if you haven't already - and grab a copy of his new ebook, The Sourdough Framework, here: ko-fi.com/s/7b45198768
Grant...I purchased your bread book. I didn't realize I was getting a download recipe book. Don't you have an actual book to send. It will take more expensive ink to copy all these pages?
Thanks for the comparison Grant! I recommend to feed the liquid starter for 3-4 days before using it to make a bread dough. This really helps the cultures to adapt. Also - every sourdough starter is unique. If your starter smells a bit like vomit after a few days without feeding - chances are high this will work for you.
On his website, the Bread Code mentioned using 5-10% of the liquid starter. But here you have used 36% of it. I wonder if this results in a faster fermentation and hence the lack of flavour. Has anyone tried using a smaller amount for comparison?
I would like to get the opposite result actually more acidic! I looove that distinct flavor that only a good old sourdough starter can achieve! Will I get it if I use the opposite system? Less water or my flour? 😅
I have 3 starters, a stiff, a 100% and a liquid one that have maintained in those states for over 6 months and they make very different bread with different smell and taste, the liquid one is definitively « yogurts » and has obviously dairy notes. You just need to maintain these starters in their own recipe and not switch it just before baking. The activities of each also increase with time, just love it!
In the Bittman Bread book, he tells you to always stretch & fold with plenty of water so you add in quite a bit of water in the end. These seems to have similar results.
Ps, when I said mix and shape , I mean to also do your stretch and folds for a couple hours. Then bulk fermentation in the fridge. Need to be more clear. Then pull out next day, let dough warm up . Easier to work with that way as well. Continue to shape etc.
Great! No i have not used a liquid starter. I have during many years used a 100% hydration starter, but lstely i have been feeding my starter little more flour than water. And i have started to add rye into it. I typically feed it 100g water and 100g wheat+10g rye flour. I really like this. Its not a stiff starter by any stretch, but more stiff than the usall 100% starter
I've used a stiff starter with really great success (fabulous crumb!), and got even more of that sour taste I love so much. But mixing it was such a hassle that I went back to my standard 100% hydration starter. I've never tried liquid because the thing I love the most about sourdough bread is the sour taste. It's interesting to me that you could lose that sour taste by only feeding your liquid starter one time.
It seems there are so many variables that going into what makes bread sour vs. not sour. It's hard to really know sometimes, especially with one-off situations. Most people say that a stiff starter will produce a LESS sour loaf, so it's interesting that it increases the sourness for you! I guess it all really comes down to knowing your own starter and knowing how to make good bread for yourself/your family. We can get advice from other people but we've got to trust our own instincts and know what works best for us at home. Thanks for the comment!
@@GrantBakes You are so right! I can make a loaf right next to someone in the same room with the same ingredients and have my loaves turn out different because of one variable: ME!! Sourdough really is an individual thing.
Good insight and video. I ask that you possibly help us lovers of the more acidic or San Francisco sourdough taste by telling us how to achieve those flavor notes as well. Your basic recipe has hints but is there a way to really kick it up a notch?
I personally like the sour notes more than the dairy so I use a stiff starter but found this interesting that the bread came out with the same or similar crumb and rise. I also make a bread that is lower in white flour (because my husband has a sensitivity to it). I replace up to 50% of bread flour with cassava flour and enough vital wheat gluten (he is not sensitive to gluten) to make the cassava around 12% protein. I also use a 1/4 teaspoon of regular yeast (this cuts some of the sourness but not all). The bread rises well, has great oven spring, crispy crust and a "fluffy" and delicious crumb with some open holes but not extreme.
Hello, Do I need please very fine whole grain flour for my sourdough bread? Which is please the best heavy duty grinder for my organic whole grain barley? Thank you
I came across your "skip stretch and fold step with 10 slap and folds instead" video from a couple years ago. Any particular reason you don't do that as much anymore?
Good question. Stretch and folds have always been my main technique, but I was exploring options that help build gluten fast without as much work (like the slap and fold method). But if I’m not too busy during the day, I prefer to stick with stretch and folds.
i use a stiff starter (50%), and get a nice smooth, mild dairy flavor to my bread. still get a tinge of astringent mouth feel of a bread made with an acidic starter.
Dear Mr Grant, if you read this I would like to ask you how to get my starter a bit happier? It gets lots of bubbles on top but I’m not seeing many if any bubbles down below. I am wondering if I should feed it now with some rye flour? I tested it a bit ago with the float test and part of the spoon floated and some of it dropped to the bottom. I would like your educated opinion please.
If it's a starter that you've had going for a while, try feeding it 100% whole grain rye flour for a few times. It could really get it happy and active again.
I noticed you didn't final proof in the fridge here and did it all in one day. Wouldn't a long cold proof have added more sour notes to the final product?
Nice experiment Grant. It’s good to use different methods of baking, but to be honest, for me , I don’t feel attracted to this one. So i will stick with the regular starter.
Next time, experiment w/ Molasses in this new starter. A bit of Milk w/ the water. See what you think. Taste buds can't lie. 🍞💥... Go Central European style. Grandmas never messed around like the French do, and fed a nation. They were the experts. Scales, phoo. You know what dough smells/feels like. ..A splash of good beer might be interesting too.
On his website, the Bread Code mentioned using 5-10% of the liquid starter. But here you have used 36% of it. I wonder if this results in a faster fermentation and hence the lack of flavour. Has anyone tried using a smaller amount for comparison?
I’ve never used a stiff starter. Always liquid, classified as a levain, generally 12 hours. Mix and 20 to 24 rest in refrigerator, let warm up a couple hours, and shape. Back in fridge overnight up to 24 hours again. Then bake. Time will give you flavor. We all heard this thousands of times, so I’m sorry about that. Chad Robertson style mostly here. I take no credit for anything. Good baking to all.
Yes you should! If you like the diary flavor, as I. I don’t like when it’s too stiff so I reduce the water to 75 or 80%. Then ( as Hendriqe learns) the yeast bact thrive and give a mild taste to the dough and a higher rise! So I recommend it, it’s also easier to handle a thicker starter!
As one who likes the process and claimed benefits of Naturally Leavened bread, but does not like the "sour" smell or taste, this video may be my answer. I have taken to using Wild Yeast Water made from various fruits which, when they work, make for beautiful and non-sour, tasty breads. However, they are not reliable enough for me and to maintain them, which seems to be my downfall, all you are doing is adding sugar. This flour based liquid starter makes sense given it is very similar to the fruit based WYW but using flour as the food source which would seem a more natural choice given you want yeast that loves flour as it's food source.
Thanks for the comment! I've done a fruit yeast water starter before as well. You should look into trying a "stiff" starter in addition to a liquid starter for different levels of sourness.
@@GrantBakes Thanks Grant! My goal is to achieve as many benefits of the SD process, long fermentation, while keeping the sour aroma and taste to a bare minimum. Just our choice and I know others love more sour.
No yeast can survive on sugar alone, which is probably why you're struggling with your WYW. It needs nutrients, not just pure energy. Why not try feeding your WYW some dry malt extract instead (at least partially, like 50/50 DME/sugar)? You'd be making beer, basically, and that makes for tasty bread! If maltiness in your bread is not something you want, then build a flour-based levain from it before you bake. Alternatively, I'd recommend you try a stiff starter first. (You don't necessarily need to follow the strict regimen of Italian Lievito Madre, but I encourage you to look it up, you might enjoy the process if this interests you). My 100% hydration starter had an off-putting funk about it that I could taste in one of my loaves the last time I used it (and I like sourdough generally, but not _that,_ whatever that was). So I started feeding it @ 50% hydration twice each day for about a week, and now that stinky stank is ancient history. My wife eats the bread now, and she doesn't like sourdough, or so she tells me. Even after starving in the fridge for a week, the starter still smells good, whereas before it would be like stinky work socks, & damp basement crawl space.
Typically I use a 1:1:1 ratio with a 100% hydration starter. I get sick to my stomach just from smelling vinegary stuff but my bread never has that smell nor taste. It's really good. And I always let my shaped loaf cold fermenting the fridge for at least 12 hours. Maybe I ma just lucky and don't get a vinegary taste or smell. BTW, I am just baking a loaf using your discardless method (just to test). I must say so far so good. Still baking now the lid off but I can telly the oven spring was as good as ever. If I like the crumb and taste, I might stick to this method of starter.
Check out The Bread Code's UA-cam channel, if you haven't already - and grab a copy of his new ebook, The Sourdough Framework, here: ko-fi.com/s/7b45198768
Grant...I purchased your bread book. I didn't realize I was getting a download recipe book. Don't you have an actual book to send. It will take more expensive ink to copy all these pages?
Thanks for the comparison Grant! I recommend to feed the liquid starter for 3-4 days before using it to make a bread dough. This really helps the cultures to adapt. Also - every sourdough starter is unique. If your starter smells a bit like vomit after a few days without feeding - chances are high this will work for you.
Thanks for the idea!
Will you ever post again though
On his website, the Bread Code mentioned using 5-10% of the liquid starter. But here you have used 36% of it. I wonder if this results in a faster fermentation and hence the lack of flavour. Has anyone tried using a smaller amount for comparison?
I would like to get the opposite result actually more acidic! I looove that distinct flavor that only a good old sourdough starter can achieve! Will I get it if I use the opposite system? Less water or my flour? 😅
So nice to see my two favourite sourdough channels collaborating! You guys are both great!
I have 3 starters, a stiff, a 100% and a liquid one that have maintained in those states for over 6 months and they make very different bread with different smell and taste, the liquid one is definitively « yogurts » and has obviously dairy notes. You just need to maintain these starters in their own recipe and not switch it just before baking. The activities of each also increase with time, just love it!
Great point!
Another great video. I love learning about Sourdough
Thanks! I love learning about it too.
In the Bittman Bread book, he tells you to always stretch & fold with plenty of water so you add in quite a bit of water in the end. These seems to have similar results.
Ps, when I said mix and shape , I mean to also do your stretch and folds for a couple hours. Then bulk fermentation in the fridge. Need to be more clear. Then pull out next day, let dough warm up . Easier to work with that way as well. Continue to shape etc.
Great! No i have not used a liquid starter. I have during many years used a 100% hydration starter, but lstely i have been feeding my starter little more flour than water. And i have started to add rye into it. I typically feed it 100g water and 100g wheat+10g rye flour. I really like this. Its not a stiff starter by any stretch, but more stiff than the usall 100% starter
I've used a stiff starter with really great success (fabulous crumb!), and got even more of that sour taste I love so much. But mixing it was such a hassle that I went back to my standard 100% hydration starter. I've never tried liquid because the thing I love the most about sourdough bread is the sour taste. It's interesting to me that you could lose that sour taste by only feeding your liquid starter one time.
It seems there are so many variables that going into what makes bread sour vs. not sour. It's hard to really know sometimes, especially with one-off situations. Most people say that a stiff starter will produce a LESS sour loaf, so it's interesting that it increases the sourness for you! I guess it all really comes down to knowing your own starter and knowing how to make good bread for yourself/your family. We can get advice from other people but we've got to trust our own instincts and know what works best for us at home. Thanks for the comment!
@@GrantBakes You are so right! I can make a loaf right next to someone in the same room with the same ingredients and have my loaves turn out different because of one variable: ME!! Sourdough really is an individual thing.
Good insight and video. I ask that you possibly help us lovers of the more acidic or San Francisco sourdough taste by telling us how to achieve those flavor notes as well. Your basic recipe has hints but is there a way to really kick it up a notch?
Great question. To be honest, I haven't dived deep into trying to get a really sour sourdough. I can look into it!
Thanks!👍
I maintain a 100% starter BUT when I'm prepping to bake I switch to 75% so I don't have to adjust my dough hydration (because I'm mad at math).
And apparently spelling! 🤣 Just busting your balls, typos are the bane of online humanity.
@@boddysurfer 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 It's true both ways.
@@MorePranaGardens May the flavour be with you.🌃🍮
@@boddysurfer And also with you? Haha.
➖➕➗😡😡😡
I personally like the sour notes more than the dairy so I use a stiff starter but found this interesting that the bread came out with the same or similar crumb and rise. I also make a bread that is lower in white flour (because my husband has a sensitivity to it). I replace up to 50% of bread flour with cassava flour and enough vital wheat gluten (he is not sensitive to gluten) to make the cassava around 12% protein. I also use a 1/4 teaspoon of regular yeast (this cuts some of the sourness but not all). The bread rises well, has great oven spring, crispy crust and a "fluffy" and delicious crumb with some open holes but not extreme.
Sounds like an interesting and very good loaf of bread!
Hello,
Do I need please very fine whole grain flour for my sourdough bread?
Which is please the best heavy duty grinder for my organic whole grain barley?
Thank you
I like the sour notes. I use a 100% hydration starter at 10% of the total flour.
I came across your "skip stretch and fold step with 10 slap and folds instead" video from a couple years ago. Any particular reason you don't do that as much anymore?
Good question. Stretch and folds have always been my main technique, but I was exploring options that help build gluten fast without as much work (like the slap and fold method). But if I’m not too busy during the day, I prefer to stick with stretch and folds.
Thanks, that makes sense!
i use a stiff starter (50%), and get a nice smooth, mild dairy flavor to my bread. still get a tinge of astringent mouth feel of a bread made with an acidic starter.
Dear Mr Grant, if you read this I would like to ask you how to get my starter a bit happier?
It gets lots of bubbles on top but I’m not seeing many if any bubbles down below. I am wondering if I should feed it now with some rye flour? I tested it a bit ago with the float test and part of the spoon floated and some of it dropped to the bottom. I would like your educated opinion please.
If it's a starter that you've had going for a while, try feeding it 100% whole grain rye flour for a few times. It could really get it happy and active again.
What's interesting is that I have a stiff starter but don't have a lot of acidity, despite what is supposed to do
Yeah, stiff starters supposedly favor the yeasts over bacteria/acid, so that makes sense!
I noticed you didn't final proof in the fridge here and did it all in one day. Wouldn't a long cold proof have added more sour notes to the final product?
It probably would have a little bit, yes!
Looks amazing, new sub here :)
Nice experiment Grant. It’s good to use different methods of baking, but to be honest, for me , I don’t feel attracted to this one. So i will stick with the regular starter.
I'm going to stick with my regular starter as well. I am interested in experimenting with stiff starters though too!
@@GrantBakes agree Grant. It’s to explore new methods and see which methods suits you. Have a great day Grant
Next time, experiment w/ Molasses in this new starter. A bit of Milk w/ the water. See what you think. Taste buds can't lie. 🍞💥... Go Central European style. Grandmas never messed around like the French do, and fed a nation. They were the experts. Scales, phoo. You know what dough smells/feels like. ..A splash of good beer might be interesting too.
On his website, the Bread Code mentioned using 5-10% of the liquid starter. But here you have used 36% of it. I wonder if this results in a faster fermentation and hence the lack of flavour. Has anyone tried using a smaller amount for comparison?
I’ve never used a stiff starter. Always liquid, classified as a levain, generally 12 hours. Mix and 20 to 24 rest in refrigerator, let warm up a couple hours, and shape. Back in fridge overnight up to 24 hours again. Then bake. Time will give you flavor. We all heard this thousands of times, so I’m sorry about that. Chad Robertson style mostly here. I take no credit for anything. Good baking to all.
Moved to a stiff starter. I love the flavor.
I'll need to try it!
Yes you should! If you like the diary flavor, as I. I don’t like when it’s too stiff so I reduce the water to 75 or 80%. Then ( as Hendriqe learns) the yeast bact thrive and give a mild taste to the dough and a higher rise! So I recommend it, it’s also easier to handle a thicker starter!
Do you have a sourdough cinnamon raisin bread recipe?
Not yet! Sounds good though.
I've never used a liquid starter. I switched from 100% to 70% as I find it easier to work with. Less mess and equal results. Thanks for the video.
My Starter has the consistancy of thin pancake batter.
You can't convert it that fast 😂
he started with just freshly ground flour didnt he? not a starter?
As one who likes the process and claimed benefits of Naturally Leavened bread, but does not like the "sour" smell or taste, this video may be my answer. I have taken to using Wild Yeast Water made from various fruits which, when they work, make for beautiful and non-sour, tasty breads. However, they are not reliable enough for me and to maintain them, which seems to be my downfall, all you are doing is adding sugar. This flour based liquid starter makes sense given it is very similar to the fruit based WYW but using flour as the food source which would seem a more natural choice given you want yeast that loves flour as it's food source.
Thanks for the comment! I've done a fruit yeast water starter before as well. You should look into trying a "stiff" starter in addition to a liquid starter for different levels of sourness.
@@GrantBakes Thanks Grant! My goal is to achieve as many benefits of the SD process, long fermentation, while keeping the sour aroma and taste to a bare minimum. Just our choice and I know others love more sour.
No yeast can survive on sugar alone, which is probably why you're struggling with your WYW. It needs nutrients, not just pure energy. Why not try feeding your WYW some dry malt extract instead (at least partially, like 50/50 DME/sugar)? You'd be making beer, basically, and that makes for tasty bread! If maltiness in your bread is not something you want, then build a flour-based levain from it before you bake.
Alternatively, I'd recommend you try a stiff starter first. (You don't necessarily need to follow the strict regimen of Italian Lievito Madre, but I encourage you to look it up, you might enjoy the process if this interests you). My 100% hydration starter had an off-putting funk about it that I could taste in one of my loaves the last time I used it (and I like sourdough generally, but not _that,_ whatever that was). So I started feeding it @ 50% hydration twice each day for about a week, and now that stinky stank is ancient history. My wife eats the bread now, and she doesn't like sourdough, or so she tells me. Even after starving in the fridge for a week, the starter still smells good, whereas before it would be like stinky work socks, & damp basement crawl space.
Typically I use a 1:1:1 ratio with a 100% hydration starter. I get sick to my stomach just from smelling vinegary stuff but my bread never has that smell nor taste. It's really good. And I always let my shaped loaf cold fermenting the fridge for at least 12 hours. Maybe I ma just lucky and don't get a vinegary taste or smell.
BTW, I am just baking a loaf using your discardless method (just to test). I must say so far so good. Still baking now the lid off but I can telly the oven spring was as good as ever. If I like the crumb and taste, I might stick to this method of starter.
Thanks for giving it a try!