To autolyse, or not to autolyse, that is the question
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- For you I created the perhaps most complete deep dive on dough autolysis we baking nerds have ever seen. We will be having a look at 1 dough which was autolysed and another one where we didn't autolyse. We will closely compare each step from dough to the final bread. In this case I am using a sourdough, but the same effects can be observed for yeast based doughs as well, such as pizza dough for instance.
Recipe for each dough:
- 300 grams of bread flour (15% protein)
- 100 grams of whole wheat flour
- 320 grams of water (80%)
- 80 grams of sourdough starter (20%)
- 8 grams of salt (2%)
Flour I am using:
Blog article on different flours in Germany: thbrco.io/blog-flour
Drax Mühle Manitoba flour 14% protein: thbrco.io/drax-flour
For ze Germans - T550 at Rewe 11-12% protein: thbrco.io/rewe-aurora
Mulino Padano 15% protein: thbrco.io/mulino-flour
Flour I am using:
Blog article on different flours in Germany: thbrco.io/blog-flour
Drax Mühle Manitoba flour 14% protein: thbrco.io/drax-flour
For ze Germans - T550 at Rewe 11-12% protein: thbrco.io/rewe-aurora
Mulino Padano 15% protein: thbrco.io/mulino-flour
Strong whole wheat flour: thbrco.io/whole-wheat-flour
Follow me here too:
Github: thbrco.io/github
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Tools:
Banneton proofing basket (25cm length, 15cm width, 8.5cm height): thbrco.io/banneton
Cooling rack: thbrco.io/cooling-rack
Digital kitchen scale: thbrco.io/kitchen-scale
Dough scraper: thbrco.io/dough-scraper
Dutch oven for batards (Challenger Bread Pan): thbrco.io/dutch-oven-batards
Dutch oven round (Lodge): thbrco.io/dutch-oven-round
Dutch oven with glas lid (Brovn) - BREADCODE = 5% off: thbrco.io/dutch-oven-glas-lid
Infrared thermometer: thbrco.io/infared-meter
Loaf pan (30cm length x 12cm width x 9cm height): thbrco.io/loaf-pan-regular
Loaf pan with lid (34cm length, 13cm width, 12cm height): thbrco.io/loaf-pan-lid
No stick spray (vegetable based): thbrco.io/non-stick-spray
Oven gloves: thbrco.io/oven-gloves
pH meter to check acidity: thbrco.io/ph-meter
Weck starter jars: thbrco.io/weck-jars
Useful videos:
Debaked ep. 1 - Pizza journey to Napoli: thbrco.io/debaked-napoli
Debaked ep. 2 - Journey to a flour mill: thbrco.io/debaked-flour-mill
Discard starter bread: thbrco.io/discard-starter-bread
Fermentation time table: thbrco.io/fermentation-time-t...
Make a sourdough starter: thbrco.io/make-sourdough-starter
Make your starter more active: thbrco.io/more-active-starter
Recommend sourdough bread recipe: thbrco.io/sourdough-recipe
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:11 How to autolyse your dough
8:34 No autolysis dough
11:05 Both doughs after strength development
18:31 Both doughs 8 hours later
22:32 Dividing and preshaping
24:52 Baking the doughs
25:24 The verdict
#sourdough #baking - Навчання та стиль
You can read about this in detail in my free book called “The Sourdough Framework”. You can get it here: breadco.de/book. You can support the project with a donation, but there is absolutely no knead. I believe information like this should be free and accessible to everyone. The book is made for everyone who wants to understand the important details when making sourdough bread. Thank you!
What? After all of this you talked about the difference in flavor but you didn't say which flavor you preferred, the autolyse or non-autolyse. Still, this was educational. Thank you.
Autolysis is a process that, among other things like developing gluten, activates amylase enzymes. These enzymes cleave the starches in the flour into smaller monomeric sugars which are substrate for microbial fermentation. Effectively, autolysis makes more sugar available for the ferment which makes it seem "faster" as you say. Faster ferments typically favor anaerobic bacterial glycolytic fermentation, instead of yeast based aerobic fermentation. Bacterial fermentation (lactobacillus, acetobacter, etc.) produce acids (lactic/acetic acid) that make the bread sour. So your autolysed bread is more sour because it favored the bacterial/acidic fermentation component by providing more easily accessible sugars, which bacteria metabolize faster than yeast. A similar phenomenon occurs in fermentations done at higher temperatures, which also favor bacteria over yeast. Yeast flourishes in colder, longer ferments, and produces more CO2 gas, which can in the context of the right gluten network produce a beautiful open crumb. Clearly in both of these breads with 12 hr bulk fermentations plus overnight retard proofs, you have allowed ample time for yeast metabolism as well and produced lots of CO2, which has resulted in the lovely crumbs. Cheers and bravo to good ferments!
Hi, thks for your video. I'm a french baker. Autolyse is a technique used when your dough has too much strength. You can verify that when your baguettes bends in the oven (I'm talking in a professional oven where the heat mostly comes from the oven's floor). I guess that explains the difference of volume between both of your breads. I would conclude your flour doesn't need autolyse. As a mater of fact whole wheat flour almost never require autolyse since the envelope of the wheat already weakens the gluten network. I hope that helps. Cheers German neighbor!
Hey! Awesome - you rock. Thanks for sharing. Do you make baguettes on a day to day basis? Maybe we can do a video together at some point. I'd love to ask you some questions 🤓
@@the_bread_code I'm not a baker anymore so it's going to be tricky for the video but I'm absolutely open for questions. With pleasure. We can do a zoom if you like to ask several questions. I'm not the best in baguettes more in country bread but I do know some things for sure.
@@the_bread_code very good youtube chanel with subtitle... this man is a teacher and knows very well his job.... High level and easy to understand. "boulangerie pas à pas"
Could you please explain why I'm getting more oven spring now that I autolyse my dough? Two loaves have 704 gm bread flour and 159 gm whole wheat flour. I autolyse until the dough passes the windowpane test before adding my levain.
@@nancypahl7755 sorry it's difficult to say. the end result depens on so many parameters... are you positive it is due to the autolyse? have you tried it several times? in the meantime I'll think about it.
Bread engineering by a German is a thing of wonder. Test 1, test 2, compare, analyze, measure, osbserve, correlate, evaluate. Very thorough and educational, but I prefer the Italian method of bread-making-a handful of this, a pinch of that and always some wine.
The scientific explanation is the following:
When you put flour in contact with water, enzymes start breaking down the flour releasing its sugars making them more available for the sourdough. Hence you have a faster fermentation yet all the sugars present in the flour get eaten by sourdough, making the bread more sour.
It's the same reason why in the italian "Panettone" recipe you have to have a well fed and developed sourdough starter ( also known as pasta madre ) to make it right, otherwise fats present in the recipe plus the weak pasta madre make the fermentation slow enough to make the enzymes break down all the sugar present in the flour hence instead of making a sweet bread used as dessert you come out with a sour desser.
:) Thanks for the nice, insightful and interesting video that confirms the theory! :)
Thanks for sharing! You rock.
@@the_bread_code you too man!
I just love how you explain the "why" behind the steps you do. It really helps me improve my baking, not by blindly copying your instructions, but by understanding why you do something and so change my own steps. Keep up the great work!
Thank you. You are welcome!
In a french bakery a short autolyse is used to reduce kneading and thus oxdydation of the dough (which causes loss of flavour and whiten the crumb)
A longer autolyse is used to correct the balance of the flour. Flours have different caracteristics, namely : Baker's strenght (W), Tenacity (P), Inflation (G), Extensibility (L) and elasticity which is (P/L). (W is the sum of P G and L)
It is advised for relatively white flours with a W>250, and "short" flours (high P/L)
If your flour is correctly balanced for making bread, and you're kneading by hand, you're absolutely correct than autolyse won't have an effect on the final outcome in fact it should not be done when your flour is too extensible already.
You rock - thanks for sharing this amazing comment. That's why you are all so great. Love comments like this where I learn something new myself 🙏. Now why in general would you say you would like to have a high W flour? Just for the longer fermentation? With high W flour I am able to ferment and inflate the dough for a long period.
I am going a little bit deeper in the topic.
Once the flour's hydrated (hydrolysis of proteins and starches), it starts the so-called maturation of the dough. Simplified, this is the sum of three different enzymatic processes: Amylolysis; Lipolysis, and Proteolysis.
Amidolysis is the transformation of starches in flour into simpler sugars. This process is catalyzed by the presence of two enzymes: alpha and beta amylase. The higher the concentration of these enzymes, the faster the starches will be converted first into dextrins (by alpha-amylase) and then into maltose (by beta-amylase). But how much starch is converted during the maturation process? Usually, only a small amount, around 6-8%, far from the total. This process is particularly important because it guarantees the yeast the necessary substrate for their fermentative metabolism.
If the presence of alpha amylase is excessive or if they are too active, there is a considerable production of dextrins, soluble in water. Since these are given precisely by the splitting of starch, one of the components of the flour that absorbs more water, for each molecule of dextrin that is formed, water is released into the dough. The dextrins dissolve in the same water, making the dough moist and sticky. This effect is noticeable when overmaturing, when using rye flour (rich in alpha-amylase) or using excessive amounts of diastatic malt.
How do we read the amount of alpha-amylase in flour to know if it is good for what we want to achieve? The Falling Number or Hagberg index is the measure of the amylase activity of alpha-amylase and is determined with an instrument called an amylograph. The Falling Number is the time, expressed in seconds, which allows the instrument with its agitator to penetrate for a defined length into an aqueous gel of heated flour. The greater the amylase activity the greater the speed of penetration of the stirrer of the instrument on the gel. This is because the viscosity of the same will be lower, and consequently the number of drops will be lower (less seconds needed).
Autolysis starts the maturation process. Therefore, it is required only in specific conditions, as when it is needed to lower the P/L (elasticity) or when using a flour with a high Falling number.
@@andreadimichele2807 Wow! Just wow! Amazing, in-depth information.
also is it not intended for yeasted doughs where the fermentation time is short (and therefore autolyse could be expected to be more important)
i also suspect though have no proof it may be more important for high hydration doughs, as the flour needs time to absorb water?
i have found autolyse just helps just making dough handling easier. but if it has a negative effect maybe i should drop it!
@@andreadimichele2807 Do you have any recommendations for where a hobbyist bread baker can go to learn more of the nitty gritty science of bread baking? I really enjoy learning that kind of thing but haven't had much success finding resources anywhere near the level of detail you just discussed.
I did an Autolyse last night then I used the fridge overnight. This morning I made my best sourdough loaf yet! Thanks for the instruction.
Edit to add: it was mostly bread flour 400g and 50g of whole wheat. It's been the easiest handling of my dough so far, I'm a total noob though.
Been making sourdough loaves for a while now, but through your videos I have realized I've been missing an important technical step, the slap🤣🤣
🤣 very important!
@@the_bread_code I forgot that too. Going forward I'm going to start doing that and see how it affects the process. It seams that a softer sound in the slap means the flour has broken down more. Meaning a more open crumb?
It was so funny that I wanted to slap the dough myself !🤣🤣🤣
LOL
😀
I’m struggling with this bread and can’t tell what I’m doing differently. Every video you make I watch. I love how much you share and teach. Hopefully soon my bread will look like yours. Thank You again
Oh noes. It's typically the fermentation process. It's hard to manage, especially if the temperatures are changing. This is the parameter you want to have a look at 🙏🏻
It may have already been said here, but I believe the overnight autolyse May have had higher natural bacteria compared to natural yeast before the starter was introduced. The bacteria reproduced throughout your dough during the autolyse, making it more acidic prior to putting the starter culture in.
If you haven’t done it already I’d love to see a video about baking with a baking stone vs Dutch oven.
I autolysed wrong the other day, yet I persisted for two full days and into the next evening and I had the best loaf of all. I was so very happy! I’m excited to finish this loaf so I can make another. I am single so it goes slow. Lol! My son-in-law loves it so much also so I share. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing! Good luck on the next one!
I DID watch the entire video and I found it fascinating. I'm a beginner and have always done an autolyse (because that's what I was told to do, and I always do what I'm told ;-) ) but for different amounts of time (1 hr, 6 hrs) mostly because I didn't know WHY I was doing it! Thank you for explaining!
I thought part of the reason for autolyse is to simply fully hydrate the flour
I saw the TLDW; comment... I’ve been making 33% whole-wheat sourdough, and after that ‘other guy’ tested autolyse/no autolyse quite awhile back, I decided to try it for myself and the no autolyse method is definitely better in terms of oven spring for me. And after seeing you spritz the dough as you close your challenger bread pan, I’ve had even better oven spring, and the best looking and most even crumb loaves so far after my 10 months of baking. Thanks for all the experimenting you do for us 🤓
You are most welcome 🙏🏻. Glad the tips work for you. The spritz is awesome, yep 👍
I love your videos and in-depth analysis. I usually watch your videos while having my lunch. yum..yum..yum..
I love all your videos. I feel I get to learn so much on my sourdough baking journey. This video is great as I I was planning on trying my recipe I keep learning on but incorporate the autolyse into this next batch. I am super excited to see the outcome. Thank you.
Oh my goodness! I finally understand this process! Thank you so much for clarifying the dough hydration!
I think that an overnight autolyze at room temperature is effectively a pre-fermentation. There are natural bacteria and yeasts in the flour already and as soon as you get it wet they will start eating the dough. This will improve the flavour but also make the dough a little more elastic and sticky because of the by products of the yeast and bacterial enzymes working on the flour. It's why sour dough starter gets wetter the longer you leave if before feeding.
100% - I agree. And - if you bulk ferment for 10 hours or more, you get the same effects, not requiring an autolyse.
@@the_bread_code Trevor Wilson (of open-crumb mastery) prefers to use salt when doing an overnight autolyse to inhibit spontaneous fermentation. I think you can also not worry about it but results will be a bit more unpredictable thanks to some flour/air having more yeast than others.
i thought that sourdough was when you mainly do this, maybe 24hs or 3 days and sometimes it doesnt work. They you mix it with some other dough that is more stretchy. When it works they put it in the fridge and feed it.
Thta's what I was going to say, but thought I would check the comments first--- my next thought, though, is how much tanginess can come from 12 hours of lyse compared to the truckload that arrives when the starter is added?
That is my experience. And the dough is much easier to work with, and smoother, more elastic. No more work. You just put the flour and water together earlier.
If I could find a guy who loves me as much as our German bread-geek friend loves his sourdough, I would be a very happy woman! 😂
I am loving all the full-on geeking out and good humored sharing! Thanks for the videos, Bread Code!
😂 😂 😂 my pleasure 🙏🏻
Liz, loved your commentary! LoL!
@@alexanderhammer688 Thanks! 😁
Danke! Another great learning video. I live in the tropics, so please repeat this experiment during summer. I'm sure we'll learn much much more! Once again, keep up the good work. Xie Xie!
I love the experimentation that you have done in your recent videos. Very interesting results.
Thank you very much! It was all part of my quest to bake the whole wheat bread.
@@the_bread_code your videos have definitely improved my sourdough bread. You can find a lot of how-to videos, but very few give you the information you need to solve specific problems. Thank you for what you do.
Thank you for producing these videos. They are very helpful.
Interesting video but I think you should try a 3rd option. I think of the autolyse as replacing some of the kneeding and proofing. I'd like you to compare your loaf to autolyse plus half the time kneeding and proofing
Good idea for another experiment!
FoodGeek (8.11.20) arrived at a similar conclusion. I wonder why more bakers don't prescribe the all=in method? As a home baker, you've convinced me to try the all-in. It seems the main road to successful bake is an active starter and a successful fermentation period prior to the bake. Look forward to more of your videos.
Well said 🙏. That's 100% what matters.
Just a tip to remember: it’s always either “how they feel” or “what they feel like,” but never “how they feel like.” 🙂
Love your videos. You explain everything so well.
Thank you!
They both look fantastic!
Another tip to remember: it’s always either “This is the way I have to do it” or “This is how I have to do it,” but never “This is the way HOW I have to do it.” 🙂
Love your videos, keep it up. For my last loaf, I autolysed my flour overnight rather than my usual 25-30 minutes. I was really surprised at the dough strength. Bad news, I also was experimenting with hydration, honey and oil. I got a very tasty flatbread. I’ve been at this for a couple of years. I make a sourdough about every 40 days. Still experimenting.
😂 I've been there. But those experiments are fun. I bake flat bread quite a lot simply because I love to experiment.
Great video! Very informative! Thank you this had been educational for my baking journey
You are most welcome!
Did you say "Gluten Tag"? If so, kudos for the pun!
😂 thx
whole wheat doing very bad damage for our health (bestseller from dr. Steven Gundry "Plant paradox") ,its why in history people alwaise using only white flour( italians and french paradox also).Very bad lectins in hull of grain ( WEAT GERM AGGLYUTININ , more dangerouse than gluten). dark bread was in history only for peasants,poor people.its why Europeans healthier then americans . WGAvery small and doing alote damage for our gut and brain also.
Ha ha! I also heard the same words! Clever - gluten tag!
Thank you for this experiment, was really interesting, I learned some things! Nice!!!
New to bread baking. I autolyse with great succsess. I don't autolyse with great success. Very interesting experiment! I'm going to autolyse
I am 100% for autolyse it never let me down and the taste of sourdough is exquisite 👌
Great experiment. One thing, it would be interesting to go into cold bulk when they reach the same Ph so they are a closer in their stage of fermentation to really see what autolyse is adding if anything. 👍🏻
My friend, nothing is magic, there is always a logical explanation, as I am an old german Dipl. Ing (yes with a greek name, i know). Autolyse is a matter of enzymes work they break down the starch in the flour in two steps until you get the simpliest sugar (In German Fruktose). So the yeast in your dough (yes also the yeast in the sourdough) has enough food. This is the main function of Autolyse but not the only one. On the other hand the water improves the gluten development without building any strength. When you knead the dough you force the gluten to build more strength. It means the gluten network is now very strong, and with your very high protein flour even stronger. As a result the dough keeps its shape better but this strength also prevent the gases to expand in the dough and build more air pockets. Better kneading of a high protein dough results to a closer crumb. Is only physics. By no knead bread using strech and fold you just create the gluten network is needed to keeps the dough nice together. Autolyse helps you in these case you can can do a few strech and folds instead of hundreds. The problem is you mix thinks doesn't belong together.
Another thing is the results of Autolyse depend also on the temperature. Overnight autolyse is too much, you have only luck with your using flour. Most of the processes need 20-60 minutes. With lots of flour types long autolyse destroys the structure of the dough. Anyway higher protein flour absorbes more water. More Water in the dough means more steam during baking, more holes in the crumb. This is also the reason we use methods as Brandstück etc. to bind more water in the flour. Sonst könntest du keine Soße binden...
You don't have to be a baker to bake excellent bread. You must ony understand the process. The chemical, physical and biological !
Love your experiments!
Thank you!
I'm not sure about your use of 'elastic'. My understanding is that something elastic will keep or return to it's shape. Extensibility is a willingness to spread out.
Sorry and thanks. You are right, that would have been a better word. I translated it from German, now that I think about it, yep, elastic implies it somehow comes back together. But you are right, extensibility fits better 🙏
@Heloise O'Byrne Why not! It's good to have alternatives!
I also agree that your final shaping could be better. Sticking to the similar movements I used while strengthening a dough helped me with nice oven springs. (Like tucking the sides in, criss cross tuck-ins and then proofing)
I have a crush for German breads. So special. Thank you for your videos.
Well for this experiment, I totally support for Autolyse. A baker needs to sleep. The flour does their work while we sleep. Nice to waking up with a well hydrated dough. So much easier after that. Hahaha
thanks for sharing, there is no right or wrong when we are baking, we have to think about the results ..... this is science, great work.
Thanks! 100% you are right. This is all personal preference in the end.
You are the first to answer thank you ... I am new here I bake my second sourdough bread but I fail, , if I want to put the dough in the cast iron pot, the dough fills in and after baking it is a flat disc
Very likely: 1) You have to build more dough strength or 2) You have overfermented your dough 3) Your shaping wasn't as good as it could be.
Gluten a-bread! I find all your videos really interesting, including this one. What would be interesting to know was what the PROTEIN content of your flour was. The autolyse time v effect differs between white flour & wholemeal: so I think it would be good to test this with white flour too, including protein content. Keeeep baking!
Thanks! Great idea indeed.
I use a bit of commercial yeast in my final mix(after a one hour autolysis /with starter) then add my salt at the end. Next, a bulk fermentation with one fold after a half hour and pre-shape after another half hour. Fifteen minute rest before final shape. In the winter it proofs for near an hour before I score and bake. Summer much faster. I am baking in Mississippi as well so we get some humid heat. I have learned from the comment section that I should start doing an autolysis with my baguettes. Really enjoyed your video. Keep them coming and also your English sounds better than most folks around here. Ha ha
Thank you! That sounds like a good strategy you are doing.
Good Job and helpful experiments. I autolyse overnight on the top drawer of the fridge. Stable temperature and not too much drying of the dough. Not much bacteria development but more gluten forming. Only hand kneading and stretch and folds. Smells perfect after baking and even better after two days. Includes at last stretch and fold.
Thank you!
Satisfying or weird? Maybe both... ;) I am also a tech professional and I enjoy the question of "Why?" And yes the satisfaction of seeing your work come to edible life is.. well...satisfying!
🤣
Yes. I’ve been waiting for this one
Me too!
Thanks! Hope you enjoy.
@@the_bread_code since I know already how to do the whole process, i jumped directly to the verdict part, and i agree with you, i love to autolyse when I have the time, sometimes I don't, even just for the sake of spicing the process a bit
@@MrStarpeto spoiler alert!
Thanks for the excellent video... watched every second three times now. I want to make sure I don't miss anything. lol.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I would recommend using a test jar with a smaller diameter for your 40g sample; your reading of the percentage of rise will be more accurate
Good idea.
I have flat shot glasses I use
Great video...it is actually cool here today. My kitchen is like 22c. But it is going to warm up on Sunday when I plan to bake. Usually I also have lots of humidity, inside 45 with AC doing the dehumidification and 26c temp.
I can basically do the entire process in one day if I have a strong starter (it grows so fast!). Autolyze one hour or so. Mix do 3 coil folds, shape. Proof and if it is really warm I can be ready in 3 hours. If I don’t want that, it goes in the fridge overnight.
The warm weather seems to cut the time significantly. When I first started, I overproofed. Once I had more experience, i realized it was it was just faster.
Just ordered a challenger and baguette bannetons...that will be next experiment. But I want to try your whole wheat and pumpernickel, please!
May the gluten be with you
Haha - wow, 22°C is very cold for you indeed. I'd say the conclusion of this experiment - shorter fermentation times like in your case, require an autolyse, the long fermentation times don't so much. Okay - I took a note. May the gluten be with you and have fun with the challenger!
A little constructive feedback. When comparing two techniques, avoid using terms like "this one" and "the one on the right". I had no idea while watching which was the autolyse and which was not. Also, when saying one is more sour than the other, you should probably add if you like it more or not.
Thanks! My bad. Will keep this in mind for the next experiment. I have 2 bannetons in different colors soon. That should help too.
You have to keep saying throughout the whole video, “Vinegar Leg is on the right! Vinegar Leg is on the right!”
Thank you, interesting and entertaining as always. Good Luck
You are welcome!
Thanks for all your dedication on this, really cool! Given your long-formats, ever thought about introducing "chapters" (with distinct time references accessible in the scrollbar and even visual "dividers" in the videos) and "summaries" (e.g. text on screen) that synthesize your great insights? I unfortunately often get lost in your videos.
Very interesting experiment and great looking bread. Id be interested in mixing up my method a bit now and seeing how things change. Subscribed!
Hope you enjoy
Nice, informative presentation. To prevent the build-up of heat when using a machine to kneed the dough, you could pre-cool the bowl in the fridge beforehand. Or, pause the kneeding for a minute or two once or twice.
Excellent idea, thank you! I will try that.
Thank you for this video. I watched the whole video. I like it because it showed me how my dough should look and feel. How do you feel about lamination?
Just now got around to watching this. I love tips that will make my bread more tangy! And I wish like crazy I could find one of those clear bakers here in the US. The only one I've seen is the one you advertise, and it's only available in on your side of the pond. 🥺
The US flower is not too bad for bread making. Had success for over 25 years when I developed an interest for sourdough bread baking. Started out with a San Francisco purchased drey sourdough starter. Now in retirement in Sao Paulo, Brazil, it took me quite a while to figure out how to bake a decent sourdough bread; succeeded in part of these great videos from our Hamburg friend here.
@@alexanderhammer688 I use King Arthur with great success here in the US. In this comment I was referring to the clear domed baker for inside the oven. (A brovn?) I would love to see how my bread is doing as it bakes.
I find your videos very informative interesting. I really like your experimental technique (and explanations) and think that is the best way to try to understand what is happening and why.
Manipulating one variable at a time is the way to go, for sure. Perhaps making four loaves at a time, two as a control and two with the dependent variable. That way you can be more certain about introducing unintended variables.
I'm a bread novice - just started with sourdough baking a few months ago. I make one loaf every 7-10 days.
I stumbled upon an interesting technique that seems to work pretty well and I am interested in what you think of it.
First, I'm at 6000' (1800 m) altitude where the winter temps are cool/cold and the ambient humidity is very low.
After mixing all 4 ingredients together (water+starter, then add flour+salt), I let it rest at RT (70°F, 21C) for an hour. After resting, I do some minimal folding and shaping and then transfer the dough to an Instant Pot for 4 hours at the yogurt setting, which is about 110°F (43C).
After 4 hours, I fold and stretch the dough several times before transferring to a banneton (dusted with rice flour) and refrigerate (37°F or #C) overnight - typically 10-12 hours.
The next morning, transfer the dough from the basket to a preheated dutch oven (500°F, 260C), reduce the oven temp to 450°F (232C), bake with the lid on for 20 min, remove the lid and bake for 30-35 more min.
The loaves are consistently good and tasty, although the crumb is not as open as I'd like it to be.
I'm using a starter that is very active - regularly fed with a variable mixture of rye, whole wheat and strong bread flour. For baking, I use 90% strong bread flour with 5% rye and 5% whole wheat.
A fermentation temp of 110 degrees seems rather high to me for sourdough. My instant pot has 2 temperatures you can set it for: normal yogurt which is about 110 degrees and low yogurt which is in the 85 to 90 degrees range. Even 85 degrees is high as sourdough is usually fermented in the 70 to 82 degree range.
Thank you this is very interesting and great lesson.
Gluten Tag! Ha! du bringst mich zum lachen! Jetst schaue ich mir das Video an.
Henrik, thank you for a great channel. I’ve learned so much. Since I have a proofing oven I can bulk ferment at 75ºf (23.90c) which is my room temp or at 85ºf (29.4ºc). I’m curious besides the difference in fermentation times how the acidity of the dough would be effected. Any thoughts?
Great video, very interesting. Your videos have dramatically improved my sourdough loaves, and I thank you for that. I have watched a lot of different channels and I have had more success since watching your channel than any other. I would love to see you test autolyse time to see how much time is actually needed to get the benefits. If you could choose 3 lengths of time like 1 hour, 4 or 6 hours, and overnight to see if there is a difference.
The great thing about baking is you can do experiments like you are asking about yourself and determine what works best for you. I am in the process of doing experiments on different percentages of whole wheat and rye to white bread flour yields the sourdough bread that my family likes best and part of this experiment also includes the sifting of the flours and autolyse times.
Thanks for the excellent comment. I will need to get myself a proofing box first where I can set the temperature hehe. That way I can test it and make sure the doughs have the proper temperature.
@@the_bread_code yes I would imagine that would make things a lot easier to control. Currently I use an old heating pad while my dough is fermenting. I lay a couple towels on the heating pad (on low heat) then placing my bulking container on top of that. It is certainly not perfect but works for me who only bakes bread here and there and has a fairly cold house.
I did a 30 min yesterday, 400g of bread flour + 50g whole wheat and it was enough to get my dough going. It was my first autolyse and best loaf so far (overnight in the fridge)
Thanks Hendrik, lovely video. Love the excitement involved, although I think the small sample size and uncorrelated factors mean we cannot reach a definitive conclusion. As a request, I'd like to know if early working of the dough - at shaggy stage - is more effective than waiting an hour. The question asked is not about autolysis but is about earlier gluten development, both doughs could be done using a fermentolyse to keep the comparison fair. What do you think?
Thanks for the great comment! I need to get myself one of those machines that measure the strength of your dough haha. Then we could scientifically compare different techniques. I will call a local mill tomorrow and see if they allow me to use their machine. I'd say my key learning was that the long bulk fermentation of 12 hours seems to not require an autolyse.
THIS IS REALLY INTERESTING TANG!
🤣
One thought I had on the sourness and fermentation speed of the long autolyse, is that it was already starting to ferment on it’s own. I’ve read some papers that sampled starters from first day to day 12. The analysis of the dough after 24hrs already showed a drop in ph as well as a decrease in general bacterial cultures but a significant increase in the dominant strains of SD yeasts and lactobacillus strains.
Interesting. That could be a factor too yep. To me what sounds logical is that the autolyse breaks down the flour, making it easier for yeast and bacteria to digest it.
You're ze best! This has been one of the long-standing questions I've had since I started baking sourdough bread. If it ends up not making much of a difference I'm gonna mix everything in from now on. Sorry for commenting before I watch but since it's 32 minutes this will take a while! 😂
🤣 - you can also check the too long didn't watch comment haha
Wonderful video! Thank you very much for sharing. I am just starting to learn how to make bread and its really interesting. Really love your glass dome bowl in the oven. May I know where you get them from?
Thank you Linda! It's called "The Brovn". I linked it in the description :-)
I've been doing a 16-24 hour autolyse for my last few pizza dough's and noticed a few things. One, as you mentioned, yep, the sourness! It was too strong for my taste.Two, between the poolish and autolyse , my slices were very droopy - not good. I'll be sticking with my typical 45-minute autolyse, if I even use it! Thanks for your efforts.
Thanks! Interesting. I feel for long fermentations you don't have to do the autolysis.
I was talking to the baker where I get my flour. I asked him about autolyse, and he said he does it with every thing. What struck me was he said the bran in the whole grain flour, besides absorbing more water, it has sharper edges which can actually cut the gluten strands. Not sure about that since I don't have much experience.
I worked as a pilot baker many years ago, and my mentor said bran is like glass to gluten. Now, with whole wheat, it is always autolysed, to. at least, soften up the bran before the gluten dev begins.
Hi.bran in whole wheat very bad for our health also (read bestseller from dr. Steven Gundry "Plant paradox") like glass for our gut and brain...
More great content, thank you so much..
You are welcome!
Terrific video!
I appreciated watching the experiment. I have done an overnight autolysis before but more common than not do a 1-3 hour one. Haven't tried yet without doing one. I'm opting for an overnight autolysis tonight so that way it's 100% ready to go whenever my starter is. It's also cold here and has been developing slower than normal. I used to put it in the oven with the light on but the light went out! The last couple of days I have been experimenting with leaving the crockpot on and putting my starter (not right next to it or anything) close by to get some extra heat 🤣
You can fill a bottle with boiling water and put it into the closed oven with the dough. Change it every hour or so. That speeds things up. After you put the bottle in, leave your thermometre in the oven for a few seconds to check the inside temp.
@@2394Joseph Thanks so much! I did try something similar to that. I wound up ordering a proofer - so soon my cold issues should be better managed more easily.
Oh - one thing you could also do is leave on the oven light with the door open. That way it shouldn't get too hot, but you have a steady temperature.
@@the_bread_code yeah that is what I normally do but my oven light went out and I need to replace it.
I tried an overnight autolysis several times based on a recipe by Trevor J Wilson before realizing that my flour (11%, organic, stone-milled) can't cope with that. It's one hour tops, so it seems the flour used sets the limits.
Greetings from Russia! Thank you so much for your videos! respect!
I autolyze for 2 hours every time, because I feel that the gluten develops better that way. And it cuts down my bulk fermentation to about 5 hours starting with the moment I add Sir Bobby Farts-Alot. 😏.
Hahaha. Great name for a sourdough starter!
Nice name for your starter😂 . Mine is Little Lord Fartlroy.
I am so glad I found this video. Thankyou. I am Gluten intolerant but I have found that I can tolerate Sourdough bread with the culture in it ok. Just 1-2 pieces. I am on the FODMAP diet and much more tolerant than I used to be, finally. Do I have to have one of those glass covered baking machines for my loaf? I have a V-Zug oven which is steam and hot air oven combined and should cook the bread nicely without that glass thing.
I do love the scientific explanations given by some people but basically it was bit hard for me to understand it all. I like how the sourdough breaks down the sugars for me? I cannot tolerate the short chain sugars (fodmaps). Cheers from Australia
read ,please, dr.Steven Gundry "Plant paradox" bestseller,it will helps you .
its on utube and his book on different languages also,he heal people with own programm 20years already
autolyse is not supposed to make your bread taste different or make a more open crumb. It hydrates the flour and can help with gluten development. But since enzymes also start eating up the gluten I'd only do it with strong flour... overnight autolyse is kind of crazy and you should avoid that. The only "overnight autolyse" im aware of is when working with whole wheat. Separate the bran, pour boiling water over it and put it in the fridge. recombine the next day, helps keeping the gluten in-tact, no cutting by the bran
Interesting. In my previous experiments I noticed that I made a more extensible dough with the autolysis. This helped with inflating the dough and achieving a more open crumb. However - now that my fermentation times are around 12 hours in winter, I don't see a major difference. On the bran topic - hopefully you will enjoy the new video coming out soon :-)
@@the_bread_code google mal Autolyse du wirst genug Artikel finden die das wissenschaftlich beschreiben. Kommt halt echt drauf an was du damit erreichen willst, was für Mehl du benutzt, und vieles mehr. Ist bestimmt kein Muss für jedes Brot. Also weiterhin Gluten morgen und Glute(n) Launeee :)
Batou069 seems to be a voice of reason in an otherwise amateur baking thread 🤣
Falling asleep watching this lovely process
Thank you for your videos. I had a question, when using the mixer you said for 10 minutes. Is that 10 minutes all at once or 5 minutes, rest the dough and then 5 more minutes? Thank you. Sandra
I find it hilarious each time you slap the dough balls LOL even though I know it's for testing the elasticity
Watching again. Good video and thanks for doing all this so I don't have to do it! Very instructive. What is the purpose/benefit(s) of the slap?
You are welcome! The slap doesn't do anything. Just a way to show off that your bread isn't so sticky hehe.
@@the_bread_code Thank you for your kind explanation. (hehe)
May I ask where you got the bowl you used in this video please
I'm waiting for your Pumpernickel und Landbrot recepies :D
Greetings!
Nice video BTW
Thanks! Haha. Took a note. So many people have asked about the Pumpernickel. Can you share what is Landbrot? Isn't that standard Mischbrot?
@@the_bread_code yeah... maybe it was my invention...
Pumpernickel then! :D
@@the_bread_code definitely want pumpernickel!
I did a thirteen hour autolysis and made the nicest tasting loaf I’ve ever made. Just tried again and I couldn’t get the dough to combine with my soft gooey very active starter. The dough went into wet lumps !
It's very similar to doing a Sponge. When rising the dough with a Sponge will go crazy, rising so fast, and it's not the same with regular bread.
I'm halfway through and excited to see what happens! I'm not going to guess because I don't understand the process enough. haha
🤣
2:55 Since 1 liter of water weighs exactly 1 kilogram, you can actually directly replace '320 grams of water' with '320 milliliters of water' and use the more usual method of measuring fluid quantities.
Went a little slap crazy on this one! Interesting experiment. Definitely unexpected. I would have thought whole wheat would have benefited more from an autolyse. Oh and you got it right the first time. It's a stand mixer. :) Have you been talking to Sune again? I see he is experimenting with using a stand mixer for sourdough too.
Haha, thanks! The slap technique 🤣. Just saw it today in a post. I wanted to do an A/B test too in the future hehe.
This was a really interesting watch for me. I carried out a similar side-by-side comparison of a) introducing starter to an overnight autolysis (no salt) and b) mixing all the ingredients together from the start.
I had been finding that an overnight autolysis was causing an earlier fermentation and left the shaped dough sticky with no strength. Fine for a tin but could not support itself.
I agree with the conclusion here, echoed in the comments; fermentation begins during an overnight autolysis. I found that b) was a much easier dough to work with and not as sour as a) despite working in parallel.
I wonder how different the effect would be to include salt in a) for the overnight stage. Should slow up the fermentation? Watch this space.....
That experiment sounds logical to me!
You mention whole wheat loaf experimentation. I too have struggled with getting a good whole wheat loaf with consistent oven spring, but then something changed my bread game completely. I bought a stand mixer for my wife a few months ago and decided to try using it to mix and knead my dough. Suddenly I achieved crumb consistency and increased oven spring. I am convinced the reason is because of increased gluten development (I just wasn't hand kneading enough). When I hand kneaded, I always found my dough would shed bran on my counter while I was kneading and coil folding. With better gluten development this doesn't happen. As you mention, overnight autolyse was not a plus. I have had doughs go sticky on me with too much autolyse, so now I shoot for one or two hours autolyse. My loaves are also around 12% whole rye flour and I have read somewhere that rye flour doesn't benefit from autolyse. I basically pull the plug on autolyse when my levain peaks.
I can only agree. I will put an extra emphasis on building dough strength in my next video as well. It's really important to get great oven spring.
I make sour dough bread all the time and I never use the autolysis method though I do when I make Japanese milk bread (but use almond milk) I let my sour dough sit over night in the microwave (steady temps not cold or hot going on as it makes a great place to let the dough rise) I keep the door closed of course and leave it till morning Never have had an issue with rising Its always perfect and puffs up beautifully and tastes perfect which is the point of making bread!!
great timing, making ze bread tomorrow
Have fun!
Ein sehr gutes Video. Hat mir viel geholfen. Danke schön.
Sehr gerne!
Sehr gerne!
Thank you so much for the effort and time. It’s an interesting video and experiment. I wish you could have used codes for the doughs such as A and B. Using left and right is kind of confusing. I found that sometimes you also didn’t correctly use right and life…. Oh well, much appreciated your effort. I guess there are too many factors and i am too inexperienced yet… to make a perfect sourdough bread.
I also noticed that at the end he was confusing the 2 loaves
What is that glass top you are using for your loaf while you’re baking?
There is a logic for this. I think I have mentioned it under another video of yours. Autolyse is a technic which was developed after introduction of commercial yeast. Bakers could not get the same results as they got with sourdough starter. When the added autolyse to their bread making process, they confirmed the effect. Unfortunately, I don't remember the exact effect and other details about the story. Based on this historical fact, sourdough bread should not need autolyse. Thank you very much for doing such a great comparison.
Hi Mr Hendrik. I am just entering the home made bread path (finaly my starter doubled in size in 8h) and I am loving this channel. I live South America (summer time) and I start my sourdough in 30 minutes. I hope i can have good results like yours. What is that glass device you baked your bread?
Awesome. I linked it in the description. It's called the Brovn. I'll be doing an experiment next week comparing different baking methods. You might want to wait for me to complete that experiment 👍
I actually do the all in method and I do it like this: 1st I pour in my tepid liquid (be it water or milk) 2nd my starter, sugar and salt. 3rd I add my flour and make sure it is hydrated. 4th I let the dough rest until I can get a nice windowpane. However, I am curious if I need to bulk ferment a sandwich loaf. Or can I bake it after I get a windowpane?
After watching quite a few of your videos, the overnight autolyse method gave me my best feeling dough by far. My only problem lied when I put in the fridge overnight, it deflated and the loaf turned out pretty moist again. If I get a great rise should I just bake right away instead of failing in the fridge part?
Shortly after I first started learning sourdough bread baking at home I got lazy and stopped autolysing. At this point I still hadn’t got a good bake going and I hadn’t honed my skills so it didn’t really seem to matter to me at the time. Some months later, once my instincts had sharpened somewhat, I decided to start trying autolysing properly again. I do it for an hour give or take. It noticeably improved my bread. What can I say?