As an engineer I appreciate your attention to technical detail and the common sense physics you explain so well in your videos. As a shooter I don't get to the range often enough and am unable to do extreme long-range shooting as much as I'd like so I greatly appreciate you freely sharing your vast experience. There is no substitute for direct experience but I've learned a lot from what you have shared.
Thanks for all you share. I will start looking for a better bag setup. It all makes sense now. I knew I was getting gun movement, but seeing the video opened my eyes. I shoot into the mountains. I need to see how this work the way I have to angle my rifle. To the top of these mountains. Good video! I enjoyed it.
Ive been and will continue to go over these issue with shooters. U have just given me in this day and age a link to a video that explains and demonstrates the issues thoroughly. Thanks for all your help and all the stuff u do for the shooting world!
If you started a LR /ELR training course in Australia, I would travel there from the US to attend. The knowledge and insight you bring to the sport are priceless. Thank you for taking the time to share .
Great video Mark very well done. Yes consistency and repeat ability is what you need to shoot good groups at any distance. And you need good equipment and consistent ammo.
I definitely have things to improve upon. I really want to try one of your bases but like anyone else budget is a limiting factor. Thanks for all you guys do!
Yes we all have budgets to contend with, we know the pain, but video is really about getting your rear rest packed better, our base sure helps and is designed to use in all sorts of set ups and areas, but there are other ways to achieve the similar result, Cheers and all the best.
Great info, by you actually showing and explaining it the way you did it's very easy to SEE why groups are not usually where they should be. THANK YOU SIR!!! signed Shane P
WOW! Exceeds my black tube sock filled with rice and tied with a knot. Although, I did receive a Caldwell Tackdriver front rest bag for Christmas years ago. Thanks for sharing, Mark. Very professionally done.
Clickable Outline: 0:25 100-yard groups versus +300-yard groups 1:50 Basic Fundamentals and Follow-Through 3:00 Barrel Harmonics & Nodes 4:00 Muzzle Jump and Consistency 6:00 Fulcrum Point and Muzzle Jump 7:00 Rear Bag 8:00 Two Problems with Rear Bag Shooting System 10:30 Problem with Bipod Shooting System 12:30 Better Rifle Setup for Precision Shooting
SPOT ON MARK! That makes a ton of sense! I pack my rear bag with Vermiculite. It's a lightweight mineral that's like sand in consistency and packs nice and tight, doesn't cost much either. It's in the potting soil section of your local hardware store. Makes it easier to pack for hunting!
@@0QualityOverQuantity well shit... in THAT case you'd better not get near, or GOD forbid EAT any Bananas, because those are NO JOKE "radioactive". And better stay WELL clear of any Apples too because there's "Arsenic" in those! Wait... Your moniker is "petrolhead"?! You DO realize pretty much ALL forms of petroleum products, from Gasoline to AXLE GREASE are ALL "CANCER CAUSING"?!??!? You wear gloves when you fill up your tank right??? ☠💀💩😏 I wouldn't worry about modern vermiculite, there's much bigger fish to fry that you've unwittingly been 'spoon-feeding' yourself over the last 3 or so decades.
Very nice another great instructional video, I have come to the same thinking as you, but still struggle to put it into practice, but that's half the fun of it for me . Thanks again. Dave.
My goodness this is great info. I've been getting noticeable vertical stringing when squeezing a rear bag with bipod up front, when I use a more condensed rear bag, the stringing goes away
Hi, thanks this video is full of good informations and ideas to improve group shooting. Since I have seen this stuff on a previous video, I have machined the same kind of aluminum bar for the rearbag, it works very well on my Tikka Sporter. I have also left a slight slope to it. When I am testing a new reloading, i have also made a 3 inch wide piece of aluminum to put the front of stock on my benchrest tripod. It is a very good combo when I want to reduce the human factor to its minimum.
This a very informative video with a very knowledgeable instructor. I have group shot from a bench at my home for years and make my own very accurate reloads. I can usually get between 1/2 inch - 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards, out of my hunting setup. I always thought something was wrong with my reloads if a flyer came out in my 5 shot groups every now and again. I now have to adjust the bag position and density of the rear bag as suggested and give that a try. I know most people don't demand this kind of accuracy from a hunting rifle but I do. I think your video has given me a number of things to try to make me an even better shooter. Thank you so much for the information and for putting it across so smoothly without the sickening background music that most instructional video presenters feel the have to have.
As usual Mark, some very interesting points raised, certainly food for thought and some points iv not even considered. Cheers for the input, some new techniques I can try. Atb
I love everything y’all do, id love to see you guys build something on the AR platform, maybe a 6.5 grendel perhaps, I’d love to see what you could do with that little cartridge
Thanks Tyler, AR's and semi auto rifles are not something we have access to here in Western Australia, so not something we mess with, Cheers and all the best.
Mark - I'm a precision shooter that shoots 22LR only. 50 yards is what I shoot almost exclusively. I design and create my own targets with a .25 inch bull. If I can't hit the bull square in 8 out of 10 shots it's not a good day for me. I agree that those that consider a 5 shot group to be valid are not thinking clearly. I first zero then shoot 25 rounds at a one-shot-per-target target that contains 25 individual targets. Then I know whether or not I'm actually "on target". I will usually get a piece of all 25 bulls with at least 20 that take out more than half of the bull. You are very correct in your assessment of barrel dynamics and end of barrel movement and all the reasons for such movement. I shoot a Ruger Precision Rimfire and a Ruger 10/22 .920 with a custom stock and that's it.
Excellent video! Is it easier to shoot precisely with a solid stock or skeleton like is on your chassis you have shown there? I’m considering getting either the mdt chassis or X-ray which is more traditional looking. Thank you!!
Awesome videos. Wished I found your videos years ago. Would have save alot of trial and ERROR.. tough learning. I have a Rem700 with a thumb hole stock. 300wsm kreiger barrel. I'm applying all you have mentioned. But best I see right now is using a firm Caldwell bag large enough to set the butt on. Trying to avoid the slope of the stock. Any other suggestions. Also how would you recommend holding the stock. I think alot of my issues are proper stock pressure. this stock is easy to torgue.. I'm practicing no thumb pressure just finger pressure in the front. Any advice would be awesome. My favorite video is the duel with you and Sam the 6.5 and the 243. Great stuff. Cheers!!
Glad you like the video, here is a link that may help ua-cam.com/video/-NO70_odhFY/v-deo.html, beyond that I make a rule to not coach what I can not see, (bad advice is worse than no advice) Cheers
Great video Mark. Many thanks. Would you say that the subjects you cover here are more important that achieving better groups through re-loading and cleaning?. In other words the biggest influence on group accuracy are what you just covered?. And reloading accuracy comes lower down on the list?. "The nut behind the butt" as you put it is the weakest link?.
Thanks for the content I really like this info,a question I had is what do you use to stabilize the backend a rifle that has a regular wooden stock with the angled bottom?
Mike I am not a precision or br shooter but a 3 position service rifle shooter. The principles of what you went over are the same. Constancy in sight alinement, trigger control and what we call natural point of aim that the rifle is naturally on target when the shooter is in a relaxed state. Our methods may be different but we are trying to achieve the same outcome . Your vid using the visual aids actually demonstrated the principles and rifle reactions better than trying to show shooters using another person in position.
Do you have a video on “the basics” or how to improve my hundred yard group. Or maybe the difference between open sites vs. scoped shooting. Thanks for your great vids.
Thanks Mike, and well there is a lot in "the basic's", here's a video on that for prone shooting, all relevant for all forms of shooting, so might help, Cheers
Improving 100 yard groups is pretty easy, most people overlook 2 key things that will open up their groups. 1st is comfort- While in your shooting position look through your scope at your target, close your eyes(3-5 seconds) and when your open them you should still be on target. If not, reposition your hips (if prone) and try again. 2nd is position of finger on trigger- center the pad of your finger on the trigger, relax your grip on the rifle(i remove my thumb from the rifle completely to avoid pulling shots) slowly squeeze straight back, and always always always follow through and wait 1 second after shot to release trigger. A notable mention- you should always dry fire practice in the Position you will be mostly shooting from(bench,prone,bipod ect.), recoil masks poor trigger control. I shoot long rage(1000 yard+) and had issues with consistently until a guy at the range taught me these techniques, while dry firing practicing I found that my finger placement was inconsistent and causing a pull left or right. After using these methods my 100yrd groups got better and better to the point I can consistently shoot .30-.45 moa groups with my 6.5 creedmoor. Hope this helps ya out.
Great video mark I hear what your saying. Personally I use the first rear squeeze bag like you showed as I like to keep thing practical have always though the f class type front rests were not "real shooting". Your rear bag device is a little more practical then the f class front rests but still I'd personally love to see you do some long range shooting just using the rear squeeze bag for all us hunters/tactical shooters can relate more too.
When shooting long range, hunting, tactical and so on, as mentioned squeeze bag works fine, we shoot ELR or testing at 1000 yards or so, no room for being OK. We do have videos of shooting those ranges both unsupported and squeeze bag also tripod and shooting stick at those long range shots, just most are ELR, not quite so forgiving, Cheers
Well doesn't need to be one of our bases, but a non compressing rear bag/support is as said, just as important for 100 yards, this is for the best groups, ammo testing, load development and such, hope that makes sense, Cheers and all the best.
Great presentation. Well laid out. Lotsa' stuff to be aware of. I'm trying to shrink my groups... (currently at .3+- moa 100 yds.) but I have a problem, I'm on a pacemaker. Heart beats 70 times a minute and I can't control it. Every time it beats I see the movement of the cross-hairs on the target. I am trying to time the trigger squeeze at the right time, but that's a pretty 'tight' time window. Wish I could turn the pacemaker off for 1 or 2 seconds... but sadly that's a no-go. May just have to live with the limitations of my shooting. (dammit) Any way, great video.
Hi Bruce, well that is a great group anyway, but with that sort of pacemaker you are really doing well to work with what you have. There are things that will help with a normal heartbeat, but will pacemaker induced, the pulse if heavier and much more noticeable, easy enough to live with, not so easy to shoot with, well done. Also, thanks very much for your continued support, Cheers and all the very best.
Wow! I have NEVER saw anyone address setup issues, in this precise of a manner. This is invaluable information, and I plan on utilizing these techniques the very next time that I hit the range. I've never even considered the angle on the bottom of my butt stock, to make a difference. I use books, and things of that nature(placed UNDER my sandbag), to try and get the rear of my rifle where I want it. But, I have NEVER made absolutely sure that my rifle was recoiling on a 90degree angle, as consistently as this. I can't wait to put this remarkable information, to use. Thank you, sir. GREAT VIDEO!! I have a question.... Does it matter how firmly that I press the rifle into my shoulder, or is this just a matter of having a "consistent" pressure, from shot to shot??? I normally just press the rifle gently into my shoulder, with the three fingers, of my trigger hand. Correct me, if I'm wrong. I want to learn. I will be subbing to your channel...
my problem is for me to shoot past 100 yds. it's a 5 hour drive one way!! I've shot out to 1000 yds.before but there's nowhere to shoot like that at this end to the state I live in. (sad)
Hi Terri, you are not alone there, lots a folks shoot lots of very capable rifles at only 100 yards, so group shooting is what they do, capable of a lot more, but you have work with what you have, even if just being prepared for what might only come around on occasion, Cheers and all the best.
pijnto Noop! You're right. I live in France wich is also tough on gun rights. But a simple agreement of the owner is enought here as long as it's a private property with a proper backstop... Sad to hear that from you, sounds no good. 😎🇫🇷😇
@@pijnto Im in sa and am sure if i asked some of my hunting permissions if i could do some longer range shooting they wouldnt have an issue with it but I just do any longer range testing to 600m at the range im a member at. its just a matter of putting in the time to get permissions and proving u dont do dumb things. took me quite some time to get them then after a short while they started putting me onto neighbors etc so dont give up, theres also plenty of ranges for longer range shooting eg 2 around murray bridge. another at lower light just for example.
I followed your tips and dramatically improved my grouping at 50 metres however my 100 meter groups are much larger than double my 50 metre groups. Ah well. More practice needed i guess
I shoot a Tikka T3x Lite in .308 and I get a huge lurch and downward thrust on the shot like you describe. This video is lending credence to the putting the left hand on top of the scope technique. That is, plant the butt firmly into the bag and since I shoot off a backpack, press on the top of the scope to lower the sight alignment instead of squeezing the rear bag. Would this field expedient technique head in the right direction you are talking about?
Well not really a precision rifle, really made for hunting, so different style with different priorities, not a style I recommend, but way larger conversation than a couple of lines on here to explain, Cheers
Thanks Man, mono pods are one of the mid range tactical items that are not suited to precision shooting (for many reasons) so, might work for some but I don't recommend for true precision shooting, Cheers
New long range shooter and I have a question? The first ten minutes you speak of the consistent muzzle rise and backward motion of the muzzle before the bullet clears the muzzle but after changing the bipod to the 45degree position you then state the muzzle is going down and backward. Which is it? It would seem that a monopod at the rear would give you the much greater rigidity and yet retain an almost infinite adjustability with the proper screw type mechanism . Great video! Thanks!
MarkandSam AfterWork Thanks a lot! Just an aside you have inspired me to get into ELR. The only cartridge I’ve pushed so far is 22lr due to range restrictions, but dialing 90 moa and holding over another 10-12moa and waiting to see impacts at 655 yards with 22lr is very fun and challenging. I shoot .223 and 6.5 creedmoor also but my local range only goes out to 1000 yards. This channel is pure gold. Keep up the good work!
Awesome video!!! I do have one question about something that I think I've only heard one person mention before. Would moving the bi-pod as far forward towards the muzzle as possible, help with accuracy. What I mean by that is, if the person behind the rifle has small movements, from breathing, adrenaline, etc., I would think that having the pivoting point further forward, would cut the muzzle movement down a bit. I literally just got my first BA rifle a couple of days ago, and plan on testing that theory ,but since I've been binge watching videos such as this, I figured I'd leave a comment and hear your thoughts on it, before trying to come up with a way to extend the bi-pod mount to the very front. Thank You!!!
Well yes further forward can help in some situations, also hurts in some areas, lots of videos to help with that, but just go to where it fits and start there, when all sorted, you and the rifle and still looking to fix a problem you may find extra in some points like that, Cheers
We shoot all over the place, unprepped ground mostly, so the tactical bipod is most suited. Also with liking to preload and setting up the right bipods, I prefer to use a planted slightly flexing bipod, I found extreme accuracy like that, hope that makes sense, Cheers
If more vertical rigidity is better in the rear, why would anyone use anything other than a good bag rider sitting directly on the adjustable base like you have ? ( for precision shooting. Not hunting and other applications. ) Just seems like a bag of any kind would allow vertical variables after the trigger breaks. Thanks for the content Mark.
I am air rifle hobbies for fun and hunting. The best way to get better and better result in gruping are practise practise and more practise......a hundred or thousand pellets has already i shoot to everything that i was aimed for
Thank you guys, if only the rules to buy a rifle or weapon was not so expensive, you guys must have spent 10's of thousands of dollars for your own gear, if i had a group of less than 1" at 400 yards in cadets with a LSR, Australias own 7.62mm with iron sights L1AI, i should have brought a good rile way back when i turned 18 ?
Excellent assessment of the problems inherent in the shooter/gun system, Mark, without getting all tangled up in theory. It explained a lot of simple but persistent problems to me on the 50 and 100 yard rimfire range that generally boil down to this: Why do I go out some days and shoot a long string of quarter inch 5-shot groups with my Savage Mark IIs and somedays seem to have difficulty keeping them all under a MOA. Previous to this video, I chalked it up to it wasn't the rifles, I was the variable. Your thoughts have me thinking that I was limiting the definition of 'rifle' too severely instead of using your more ecological view of the immediate environment of the rifle itself is part of the definition. Sort of like you can't explain a bird accurately without taking into consideration trees and aerodynamics; the bird on its own isn't enough. I'm pretty sure that next time on the range I'll be better equipped to assess what is taking place when the groups open up. Thanks for a great instructional video.
Thanks Ashley, glad you liked and hope it helps, also in the same vane, actions after the shot, otherwise called you follow through are very important with all shooting, but even more so with subsonic ammo, like target 22LR stuff, bullet takes a long time to get out the barrel, tiny movements after trigger break make a big difference, slower ammo, means more time in barrel, keep that in mind. Cheers and all the best.
Mark, I'd bet that most of your viewers understand your points from this video and from watching you model them in your videos. The problem I have is that my range has only 100yd/300yd distances for rifles. Frankly, the 100yd distance is okay for zeroing for deer but any sort of real distance work just isn't a possibility; I often find myself envious of your shooting grounds. Of course there are benefits of having a 300yd range, my friend and I can hit FBI "Q" targets out to 200yds consistently and better than 50/50 at 300yds. Yeah, a Glock 17 is that accurate if you apply good fundamentals. As always, I enjoyed your talking points. Take care!
Thanks Paul, as said this stuff is about group shooting at 100 yards as much as ELR, getting to a 1/4 moa group takes all the right stuff no matter what distance you shoot. Another skill altogether with hand guns, although trigger control is the same, not much else is in the same ball park, except they are fire arms and can be great fun to do well, Cheers and all the best.
Why not shoot 100% free recoil then? Adjustable monopod in the rear. 100% eliminate the human factor. And yet in practice we find this doesn't work - especially in the bigger calibers.
Ah well, free recoil is your choice, not how we do it, but, mono pods are not for precision shooting, tactical or tacticool, but not precision, done videos on that, Cheers
Then you let the riffle reacting by itself and it goes wrong. You have to master it a certain way, "gentle and firm" grip is needed, you have to find your own mix... I know that's not easy, and that's why the more we practice the better we shoot. (Hopefully)! Have a nice one! From France, Philippe. 😎🇫🇷😇
@@paulwatson4616 Hi Paul, we can still have guns in France but for how long ? Like in many countries around the world, states want to disarm citizens because they fear that they could revolt. Another problem here is that everything is being more and more regulated, not only the guns. It is sad, maybe one day we'll be only allowed to pay taxes and watch TV.
As an engineer I appreciate your attention to technical detail and the common sense physics you explain so well in your videos. As a shooter I don't get to the range often enough and am unable to do extreme long-range shooting as much as I'd like so I greatly appreciate you freely sharing your vast experience. There is no substitute for direct experience but I've learned a lot from what you have shared.
Thanks Man, glad to share, Cheers and all the best.
Thanks for all you share. I will start looking for a better bag setup. It all makes sense now. I knew I was getting gun movement, but seeing the video opened my eyes. I shoot into the mountains. I need to see how this work the way I have to angle my rifle. To the top of these mountains. Good video! I enjoyed it.
I really love the depth that this channel goes into. No other shooting channel covers topics in this much detail. Thanks!
Cheers Will
Mark & Sam - I really appreciate the work you both put into not just inspiring shooters but educating us as well.
Thanks Kevin, Cheers Man
Ive been and will continue to go over these issue with shooters. U have just given me in this day and age a link to a video that explains and demonstrates the issues thoroughly. Thanks for all your help and all the stuff u do for the shooting world!
Thanks Ken, glad to help, Cheers
If you started a LR /ELR training course in Australia, I would travel there from the US to attend. The knowledge and insight you bring to the sport are priceless. Thank you for taking the time to share .
Thanks Steven, lol, thanks for the thought, who knows, Cheers and all the best.
Really useful! People don't think about gun movement when you fire it and I ran into a real brick wall with it. Recoil management is a game changer.
Yep, Cheers Man
I get all tips I have leaned from your videos, and today on 50m from .22LR I closed group on 0.61 MOA - first that tight group in my life! Thank you !
Cheers Man
Agreed! You did a really good job of explaining how to get past some good obstacles Mark.
Thanks Roger, Cheers
Great video Mark very well done. Yes consistency and repeat ability is what you need to shoot good groups at any distance. And you need good equipment and consistent ammo.
Hi Loren, very true, Cheers
I definitely have things to improve upon. I really want to try one of your bases but like anyone else budget is a limiting factor. Thanks for all you guys do!
Yes we all have budgets to contend with, we know the pain, but video is really about getting your rear rest packed better, our base sure helps and is designed to use in all sorts of set ups and areas, but there are other ways to achieve the similar result, Cheers and all the best.
Great info, by you actually showing and explaining it the way you did it's very easy to SEE why groups are not usually where they should be. THANK YOU SIR!!! signed Shane P
Thanks Shane, glad to help, Cheers
WOW! Exceeds my black tube sock filled with rice and tied with a knot. Although, I did receive a Caldwell Tackdriver front rest bag for Christmas years ago. Thanks for sharing, Mark. Very professionally done.
Thanks Andy, Cheers
Clickable Outline:
0:25 100-yard groups versus +300-yard groups
1:50 Basic Fundamentals and Follow-Through
3:00 Barrel Harmonics & Nodes
4:00 Muzzle Jump and Consistency
6:00 Fulcrum Point and Muzzle Jump
7:00 Rear Bag
8:00 Two Problems with Rear Bag Shooting System
10:30 Problem with Bipod Shooting System
12:30 Better Rifle Setup for Precision Shooting
Cheers
SPOT ON MARK! That makes a ton of sense! I pack my rear bag with Vermiculite. It's a lightweight mineral that's like sand in consistency and packs nice and tight, doesn't cost much either. It's in the potting soil section of your local hardware store. Makes it easier to pack for hunting!
Thanks Man, glad you like, Cheers
@@0QualityOverQuantity well shit... in THAT case you'd better not get near, or GOD forbid EAT any Bananas, because those are NO JOKE "radioactive". And better stay WELL clear of any Apples too because there's "Arsenic" in those! Wait... Your moniker is "petrolhead"?! You DO realize pretty much ALL forms of petroleum products, from Gasoline to AXLE GREASE are ALL "CANCER CAUSING"?!??!? You wear gloves when you fill up your tank right??? ☠💀💩😏 I wouldn't worry about modern vermiculite, there's much bigger fish to fry that you've unwittingly been 'spoon-feeding' yourself over the last 3 or so decades.
Good job mark well explained and very easy to follow as usual
Thanks Joe, Cheers
Took a few things from this that I'll try and use from now on, thanks very much for sharing mate
Cheers Man, Thanks
Your advice is appreciated. I picked up a saying a long time ago similar to what you say; 5 rounds isn't a group, it's a happy coincidence.
Cheers Vincent, Thanks
Great video, your information on recoil management in past videos has been very helpful. In general I don’t think it’s talked about enough.
Cheers Man, Thanks
excellent presentation. This will helps so much with load development!
Cheers
Thanks mate. Taking lots of that info to the range tomorrow.
Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork And had a great deal of success! Thanks guys!
Awesome, Cheers
Very nice another great instructional video, I have come to the same thinking as you, but still struggle to put it into practice, but that's half the fun of it for me . Thanks again. Dave.
Thanks Dave, Cheers
As usual good info that really should be common sense stuff but still stuff that we don't think of. Another home run.
Cheers bud, thanks
Thank you.
Cheers
Excellent suggestions here, thanks.
Cheers
My goodness this is great info. I've been getting noticeable vertical stringing when squeezing a rear bag with bipod up front, when I use a more condensed rear bag, the stringing goes away
Awesome, Cheers Man
Hi, thanks this video is full of good informations and ideas to improve group shooting. Since I have seen this stuff on a previous video, I have machined the same kind of aluminum bar for the rearbag, it works very well on my Tikka Sporter. I have also left a slight slope to it. When I am testing a new reloading, i have also made a 3 inch wide piece of aluminum to put the front of stock on my benchrest tripod. It is a very good combo when I want to reduce the human factor to its minimum.
Cheers
Great video Mark very clear as always thank you .
Thanks Steve, cheers
This a very informative video with a very knowledgeable instructor. I have group shot from a bench at my home for years and make my own very accurate reloads. I can usually get between 1/2 inch - 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards, out of my hunting setup. I always thought something was wrong with my reloads if a flyer came out in my 5 shot groups every now and again. I now have to adjust the bag position and density of the rear bag as suggested and give that a try. I know most people don't demand this kind of accuracy from a hunting rifle but I do. I think your video has given me a number of things to try to make me an even better shooter. Thank you so much for the information and for putting it across so smoothly without the sickening background music that most instructional video presenters feel the have to have.
Thanks John, glad you liked, Cheers
Awesome as ever and ever. Thank you
Cheers
As usual Mark, some very interesting points raised, certainly food for thought and some points iv not even considered.
Cheers for the input, some new techniques I can try.
Atb
Cheers
Great video thanks
Cheers
Insightful and great explanations
Cheers
I love everything y’all do, id love to see you guys build something on the AR platform, maybe a 6.5 grendel perhaps, I’d love to see what you could do with that little cartridge
Thanks Tyler, AR's and semi auto rifles are not something we have access to here in Western Australia, so not something we mess with, Cheers and all the best.
Mark - I'm a precision shooter that shoots 22LR only. 50 yards is what I shoot almost exclusively. I design and create my own targets with a .25 inch bull. If I can't hit the bull square in 8 out of 10 shots it's not a good day for me. I agree that those that consider a 5 shot group to be valid are not thinking clearly. I first zero then shoot 25 rounds at a one-shot-per-target target that contains 25 individual targets. Then I know whether or not I'm actually "on target". I will usually get a piece of all 25 bulls with at least 20 that take out more than half of the bull. You are very correct in your assessment of barrel dynamics and end of barrel movement and all the reasons for such movement. I shoot a Ruger Precision Rimfire and a Ruger 10/22 .920 with a custom stock and that's it.
Thanks Man, sounds like great training, Cheers and all the best.
well presented , good job Mark
Thanks Ian, Cheers
Wonderful video! World of knowledge. Thanks for sharing.
Cheers
Thanks
cheers
You just taught me a load of beneficial information. Thank you. I’d love to hear your analysis on tuner brakes. Do they really work?
Well they will change things, as for actual accuracy gains..... I have never used, so not the person to ask, Cheers
Another excellent video........
Cheers
Excellent video! Thanks for all the great info
Cheers
Well I learnt some stuff! Great video
Cheers
Similar to replacing the foam inserts, we have replaced the bag with a wooden version.
Yes, we do recommend also, Cheers
Great video Mark, what material do you recommend filling the rear bag with? Tks
Depends, we use beach sand, Cheers
Good info.... thanks brother
Cheers
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. This helps out a lot.👍
Cheers
Excellent video! Is it easier to shoot precisely with a solid stock or skeleton like is on your chassis you have shown there? I’m considering getting either the mdt chassis or X-ray which is more traditional looking. Thank you!!
All about many things, we have many videos here to help, but both options decent, Cheers
Great video buddy very informative thank you for sharing.
Thanks Randle, Cheers
Awesome videos. Wished I found your videos years ago. Would have save alot of trial and ERROR.. tough learning. I have a Rem700 with a thumb hole stock. 300wsm kreiger barrel. I'm applying all you have mentioned. But best I see right now is using a firm Caldwell bag large enough to set the butt on. Trying to avoid the slope of the stock. Any other suggestions. Also how would you recommend holding the stock. I think alot of my issues are proper stock pressure. this stock is easy to torgue.. I'm practicing no thumb pressure just finger pressure in the front. Any advice would be awesome. My favorite video is the duel with you and Sam the 6.5 and the 243. Great stuff. Cheers!!
Glad you like the video, here is a link that may help ua-cam.com/video/-NO70_odhFY/v-deo.html, beyond that I make a rule to not coach what I can not see, (bad advice is worse than no advice) Cheers
Great video Mark. Many thanks. Would you say that the subjects you cover here are more important that achieving better groups through re-loading and cleaning?. In other words the biggest influence on group accuracy are what you just covered?. And reloading accuracy comes lower down on the list?. "The nut behind the butt" as you put it is the weakest link?.
We have videos on all those topics, Cheers
Thanks for the content I really like this info,a question I had is what do you use to stabilize the backend a rifle that has a regular wooden stock with the angled bottom?
4aw-store.myshopify.com/collections/bag-rider/products/4aw-angled-butt-stock-bag-rider
@@markandsamafterwork Thankyou for that info it is very helpful,keep up the good work💪
Good on ya mate!
Cheers
Mike I am not a precision or br shooter but a 3 position service rifle shooter. The principles of what you went over are the same. Constancy in sight alinement, trigger control and what we call natural point of aim that the rifle is naturally on target when the shooter is in a relaxed state. Our methods may be different but we are trying to achieve the same outcome . Your vid using the visual aids actually demonstrated the principles and rifle reactions better than trying to show shooters using another person in position.
Thanks Man, Cheers
Do you have a video on “the basics” or how to improve my hundred yard group. Or maybe the difference between open sites vs. scoped shooting. Thanks for your great vids.
Thanks Mike, and well there is a lot in "the basic's", here's a video on that for prone shooting, all relevant for all forms of shooting, so might help, Cheers
ua-cam.com/video/-NO70_odhFY/v-deo.html
Improving 100 yard groups is pretty easy, most people overlook 2 key things that will open up their groups. 1st is comfort- While in your shooting position look through your scope at your target, close your eyes(3-5 seconds) and when your open them you should still be on target. If not, reposition your hips (if prone) and try again. 2nd is position of finger on trigger- center the pad of your finger on the trigger, relax your grip on the rifle(i remove my thumb from the rifle completely to avoid pulling shots) slowly squeeze straight back, and always always always follow through and wait 1 second after shot to release trigger. A notable mention- you should always dry fire practice in the Position you will be mostly shooting from(bench,prone,bipod ect.), recoil masks poor trigger control. I shoot long rage(1000 yard+) and had issues with consistently until a guy at the range taught me these techniques, while dry firing practicing I found that my finger placement was inconsistent and causing a pull left or right. After using these methods my 100yrd groups got better and better to the point I can consistently shoot .30-.45 moa groups with my 6.5 creedmoor. Hope this helps ya out.
some great info, thanks
Cheers
Great video mark I hear what your saying. Personally I use the first rear squeeze bag like you showed as I like to keep thing practical have always though the f class type front rests were not "real shooting". Your rear bag device is a little more practical then the f class front rests but still I'd personally love to see you do some long range shooting just using the rear squeeze bag for all us hunters/tactical shooters can relate more too.
When shooting long range, hunting, tactical and so on, as mentioned squeeze bag works fine, we shoot ELR or testing at 1000 yards or so, no room for being OK. We do have videos of shooting those ranges both unsupported and squeeze bag also tripod and shooting stick at those long range shots, just most are ELR, not quite so forgiving, Cheers
MarkandSam AfterWork cheers mark if I ever get access to a property with 1000+ I will be trying one of your rear bag bases
Well doesn't need to be one of our bases, but a non compressing rear bag/support is as said, just as important for 100 yards, this is for the best groups, ammo testing, load development and such, hope that makes sense, Cheers and all the best.
Great presentation. Well laid out. Lotsa' stuff to be aware of.
I'm trying to shrink my groups... (currently at .3+- moa 100 yds.)
but I have a problem, I'm on a pacemaker.
Heart beats 70 times a minute and I can't control it.
Every time it beats I see the movement of the cross-hairs on the target.
I am trying to time the trigger squeeze at the right time,
but that's a pretty 'tight' time window. Wish I could turn the pacemaker
off for 1 or 2 seconds... but sadly that's a no-go.
May just have to live with the limitations of my shooting. (dammit)
Any way, great video.
Hi Bruce, well that is a great group anyway, but with that sort of pacemaker you are really doing well to work with what you have. There are things that will help with a normal heartbeat, but will pacemaker induced, the pulse if heavier and much more noticeable, easy enough to live with, not so easy to shoot with, well done. Also, thanks very much for your continued support, Cheers and all the very best.
Wow! I have NEVER saw anyone address setup issues, in this precise of a manner. This is invaluable information, and I plan on utilizing these techniques the very next time that I hit the range. I've never even considered the angle on the bottom of my butt stock, to make a difference. I use books, and things of that nature(placed UNDER my sandbag), to try and get the rear of my rifle where I want it. But, I have NEVER made absolutely sure that my rifle was recoiling on a 90degree angle, as consistently as this. I can't wait to put this remarkable information, to use. Thank you, sir. GREAT VIDEO!! I have a question.... Does it matter how firmly that I press the rifle into my shoulder, or is this just a matter of having a "consistent" pressure, from shot to shot??? I normally just press the rifle gently into my shoulder, with the three fingers, of my trigger hand. Correct me, if I'm wrong. I want to learn. I will be subbing to your channel...
Cheers Man, and I see you found your answers in one of our other videos, Cheers and all the best.
my problem is for me to shoot past 100 yds. it's a 5 hour drive one way!! I've shot out to 1000 yds.before but there's nowhere to shoot like that at this end to the state I live in. (sad)
Hi Terri, you are not alone there, lots a folks shoot lots of very capable rifles at only 100 yards, so group shooting is what they do, capable of a lot more, but you have work with what you have, even if just being prepared for what might only come around on occasion, Cheers and all the best.
All you need is a private land and an agreement from the owner. Simple as this!
@@philippefrater2000 "agreement from the owner" you obviously don't live in South Australia
pijnto Noop! You're right. I live in France wich is also tough on gun rights. But a simple agreement of the owner is enought here as long as it's a private property with a proper backstop... Sad to hear that from you, sounds no good. 😎🇫🇷😇
@@pijnto Im in sa and am sure if i asked some of my hunting permissions if i could do some longer range shooting they wouldnt have an issue with it but I just do any longer range testing to 600m at the range im a member at.
its just a matter of putting in the time to get permissions and proving u dont do dumb things. took me quite some time to get them then after a short while they started putting me onto neighbors etc so dont give up, theres also plenty of ranges for longer range shooting eg 2 around murray bridge. another at lower light just for example.
When grabbing the rear bag and squeezing with your left hand, a shooter introduces what we called, 'vertical dispersion.'
Can do, yep, Cheers
Do you have any opinions on those mono pods that go on to the butt stock for certain target rifles?
How to find you answers/info on the channel ua-cam.com/video/lWohyYEn-wc/v-deo.html
This guy 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Cheers Virgil
I followed your tips and dramatically improved my grouping at 50 metres however my 100 meter groups are much larger than double my 50 metre groups. Ah well. More practice needed i guess
Great to hear, this stuff works no matter the distances, but yes practise sure helps, Cheers
I shoot a Tikka T3x Lite in .308 and I get a huge lurch and downward thrust on the shot like you describe. This video is lending credence to the putting the left hand on top of the scope technique. That is, plant the butt firmly into the bag and since I shoot off a backpack, press on the top of the scope to lower the sight alignment instead of squeezing the rear bag. Would this field expedient technique head in the right direction you are talking about?
Well not really a precision rifle, really made for hunting, so different style with different priorities, not a style I recommend, but way larger conversation than a couple of lines on here to explain, Cheers
Mark, awesome video and great explanation. Follow-up question...thoughts on using an adjustable rear monopod?
Be well,
Don
Thanks Man, mono pods are one of the mid range tactical items that are not suited to precision shooting (for many reasons) so, might work for some but I don't recommend for true precision shooting, Cheers
I do my own bags, i use Denim and Rice. Cost nothing and that's very efficient...
Cheers
New long range shooter and I have a question? The first ten minutes you speak of the consistent muzzle rise and backward motion of the muzzle before the bullet clears the muzzle but after changing the bipod to the 45degree position you then state the muzzle is going down and backward. Which is it? It would seem that a monopod at the rear would give you the much greater rigidity and yet retain an almost infinite adjustability with the proper screw type mechanism . Great video! Thanks!
Maybe watch again, all there and explained and this will also help, studio.ua-cam.com/users/videokiDi_nAY1ko/edit, Cheers
Mark, I’d really appreciate if you could answer; how much load to put on the bipod? just a bit, not at all, or quite a bit?
Depends on lots of details, normally approx half to an inch forward of the neutral, Cheers
MarkandSam AfterWork Thanks a lot! Just an aside you have inspired me to get into ELR. The only cartridge I’ve pushed so far is 22lr due to range restrictions, but dialing 90 moa and holding over another 10-12moa and waiting to see impacts at 655 yards with 22lr is very fun and challenging. I shoot .223 and 6.5 creedmoor also but my local range only goes out to 1000 yards. This channel is pure gold. Keep up the good work!
Cheers
Awesome video!!! I do have one question about something that I think I've only heard one person mention before. Would moving the bi-pod as far forward towards the muzzle as possible, help with accuracy. What I mean by that is, if the person behind the rifle has small movements, from breathing, adrenaline, etc., I would think that having the pivoting point further forward, would cut the muzzle movement down a bit. I literally just got my first BA rifle a couple of days ago, and plan on testing that theory ,but since I've been binge watching videos such as this, I figured I'd leave a comment and hear your thoughts on it, before trying to come up with a way to extend the bi-pod mount to the very front. Thank You!!!
Well yes further forward can help in some situations, also hurts in some areas, lots of videos to help with that, but just go to where it fits and start there, when all sorted, you and the rifle and still looking to fix a problem you may find extra in some points like that, Cheers
Great tips as always. Thank you. One question. What stock do you have on the first gun the 22? Thank you again
Thanks Tyler, that is a Boydes Thumb hole stock, Cheers
I live in Indiana, U.S.A. about how long does one take to get here?
Normally, 12 to 14 days, Cheers
Good luck always good luck
Cheers
Any reason you always use bipod and not the F class evo or tier one style bipods?
We shoot all over the place, unprepped ground mostly, so the tactical bipod is most suited. Also with liking to preload and setting up the right bipods, I prefer to use a planted slightly flexing bipod, I found extreme accuracy like that, hope that makes sense, Cheers
Thats makes alot of sense. Do you like the Altas 5H can you get preload on that with the spiked legs
Yes that Bipod is good to shoot with, bit tricky to adjust, but shoots good, even on the rubber feet, Cheers
If more vertical rigidity is better in the rear, why would anyone use anything other than a good bag rider sitting directly on the adjustable base like you have ? ( for precision shooting. Not hunting and other applications. ) Just seems like a bag of any kind would allow vertical variables after the trigger breaks. Thanks for the content Mark.
Thanks Man, Cheers
I need an adjustable bag something fierce.
Cheers
Of how much value is an anti-cant device (level) on the weapon?
Videos on the channel...
I am air rifle hobbies for fun and hunting. The best way to get better and better result in gruping are practise practise and more practise......a hundred or thousand pellets has already i shoot to everything that i was aimed for
Cheers
I know that this video is 4 years ago.
I’ve still got a lot of work to do.
Cheers Man
Thank you guys, if only the rules to buy a rifle or weapon was not so expensive, you guys must have spent 10's of thousands of dollars for your own gear, if i had a group of less than 1" at 400 yards in cadets with a LSR, Australias own 7.62mm with iron sights L1AI, i should have brought a good rile way back when i turned 18 ?
Thanks Man, yes we have spent a bit, still cheaper than messing with cars but as in everything good stuff ain't cheap, Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork Agree 100%, keep up the great work guys, looking forward to your uploads and ELR shooting events. :)
All the best, Cheers
Excellent assessment of the problems inherent in the shooter/gun system, Mark, without getting all tangled up in theory. It explained a lot of simple but persistent problems to me on the 50 and 100 yard rimfire range that generally boil down to this: Why do I go out some days and shoot a long string of quarter inch 5-shot groups with my Savage Mark IIs and somedays seem to have difficulty keeping them all under a MOA. Previous to this video, I chalked it up to it wasn't the rifles, I was the variable. Your thoughts have me thinking that I was limiting the definition of 'rifle' too severely instead of using your more ecological view of the immediate environment of the rifle itself is part of the definition. Sort of like you can't explain a bird accurately without taking into consideration trees and aerodynamics; the bird on its own isn't enough. I'm pretty sure that next time on the range I'll be better equipped to assess what is taking place when the groups open up. Thanks for a great instructional video.
Thanks Ashley, glad you liked and hope it helps, also in the same vane, actions after the shot, otherwise called you follow through are very important with all shooting, but even more so with subsonic ammo, like target 22LR stuff, bullet takes a long time to get out the barrel, tiny movements after trigger break make a big difference, slower ammo, means more time in barrel, keep that in mind. Cheers and all the best.
This dude is British sas
Nope, just guy and his wife that do a few bit of this stuff, and we are Ozzy, cheers
Mark, I'd bet that most of your viewers understand your points from this video and from watching you model them in your videos.
The problem I have is that my range has only 100yd/300yd distances for rifles. Frankly, the 100yd distance is okay for zeroing for deer but any sort of real distance work just isn't a possibility; I often find myself envious of your shooting grounds.
Of course there are benefits of having a 300yd range, my friend and I can hit FBI "Q" targets out to 200yds consistently and better than 50/50 at 300yds. Yeah, a Glock 17 is that accurate if you apply good fundamentals.
As always, I enjoyed your talking points. Take care!
Thanks Paul, as said this stuff is about group shooting at 100 yards as much as ELR, getting to a 1/4 moa group takes all the right stuff no matter what distance you shoot. Another skill altogether with hand guns, although trigger control is the same, not much else is in the same ball park, except they are fire arms and can be great fun to do well, Cheers and all the best.
Ok but if you have to go to all than effort to control everything out of human error isn't it easier to simply put the gun in a shooting rest?
Not what we are doing, but same rules apply for the rear bag, Cheers
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Cheers
Why not shoot 100% free recoil then? Adjustable monopod in the rear. 100% eliminate the human factor. And yet in practice we find this doesn't work - especially in the bigger calibers.
Ah well, free recoil is your choice, not how we do it, but, mono pods are not for precision shooting, tactical or tacticool, but not precision, done videos on that, Cheers
Then you let the riffle reacting by itself and it goes wrong. You have to master it a certain way, "gentle and firm" grip is needed, you have to find your own mix... I know that's not easy, and that's why the more we practice the better we shoot. (Hopefully)! Have a nice one! From France, Philippe. 😎🇫🇷😇
@@philippefrater2000 i thought yall couldn't have guns in france
ms3bani , as mark said, mono pods are terrible for precision shooting. As far as free recoil goes, there are benchrest shooters that do free recoil...
@@paulwatson4616 Hi Paul, we can still have guns in France but for how long ? Like in many countries around the world, states want to disarm citizens because they fear that they could revolt. Another problem here is that everything is being more and more regulated, not only the guns. It is sad, maybe one day we'll be only allowed to pay taxes and watch TV.
The nut behind the WHAT??
Lol, Cheers
Mu guess
Practice Practice Practice
Film yourself
Pace yourself and your gun, increase accuracy then bump up speed
Cheers
THANKS
Cheers
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