Can Mary Sues Have Flaws?
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- Опубліковано 25 сер 2024
- The dreaded Mary Sue has become one of the most infamous elements in fiction. While the argument for the specific definition rages on - one of the largest issues has been the subject of flaws. Normally, flawlessness is a clear sign that a character is a Mary Sue, but is that really true? Let's see.
New Intro by: / @shineyfx
Common Mary Sue Tropes: tvtropes.org/p...
Rey's Weakness: www.forbes.com...
Art of Rey looking up at the sky: Derek Horne
Tutorial Demon artwork: (Xofrats) / xofrats
Tutorial Demon voice: (Blue Teddy Narrations) / channel
Me: “Oooh new video.”
LD: “Question: can a Rey have flaws?”
Me: “This is the content I’m here for.”
"That's... why I'm here."
Does a Snoke shit in the woods?
@@Yusuke_Denton only if it’s made irrelevant on a “plot twist”
Goddamnit I was gonna do a tfw senpai notices you edit but I didn’t realize it gets rid of being pinned/hearted when you edit. Now I’m sad
Edit: Senpai noticed me! Again!
Me: "HA! Five seconds in and you already got my like." 😆
To summarize, a Mary Sue is characterized not by a lack of flaws, but by a lack of _fault._
"Why not both?"
Nice summary.
Well, it's really a combination of the two.
Since a Mary Sue is a form of wish fulfilment, could a Mary Sue have a disadvantage that no girl would want? Like permanent disfigurement?
@@cityman2312 Only if it was resolved easily (magic) or somehow made them more desirable as per the archetype. I proofread a fantasy story with a disfigurement of bird-like wings from a bat-like species. The MC mistaken for an angel by humans. Ultimately its about the true narrative weight these disadvantages are given within the archetype, which is just face value.
"She's blonde, she's smart, she's loved by everyone, she has no character flaws except being too naive and clumsy, she loves everyone unconditionally, anyone who would harm her is actually evil..."
I see no problem with this if we're talking about a golden retriever...
that definitely sounds like a good pup waiting to be pet
Unless it’s an EVIL golden retriever
I know that sounds impossible but like a killer cyborg dog or something.
No. Tis an impossible occurrence. The angelic nature of a golden retriever would overcome and overwrite any malice that attempts to be imposed upon it
Comparing the Star Wars Sequels to the Hindenburg is such an insult. The Hindenburg was at least interesting.
At least the Hindenburg will be remembered by history.
@@Yusuke_Denton Snap!
I would rather watch the hindenburg crash then watch the abomination that's the sequel trilogy
@@crusher5599 Oof. I don't know if I could handle watching a disaster of that scale... I can watch the Hindenburg all day though.
Don’t forget it was also explosive instead of just fizzing out into nothing
Text: Can Mary Sues Have Flaws?
Literature Devil: "Can Rey Have Flaws?"
Starwars fan : you're goddamn right
Before I watch the video: Yes, Mary Sues can have flaws, aside from just being a Mary Sue. It's just their flaws are either lampshaded, unimportant, or suddenly and easily overcome that has little to no impact on their perfection.
Two minutes into video: ayup.
Nice!
Mary Sue Flaw example: I can't whistle worth a damn nor roll my R's.
Meaningful Flaw example: I'm so paranoid that I sabotage most every relationship I have.
Depends on the context. If you're writing a spy story where every romance option is a potential enemy agent, being paranoid like that isn't going to be a problem for the protag. In fact, he might very well be right to be paranoid.
@@zerothefaceless4888 one of the most basic aspects on paranoia is social anxiety. Certainly not a trait you would want any of your spies to have. There is a distinct difference between Shrewdness and Paranoia.
@@zerothefaceless4888 paranoia is not a good aspect for a spy.
Even if it was though it would have destructive Consequences in the personal life of the spy
@@OK-yy6qz You guys didn't get my point at all, did you? It's not about spy fiction in general or this particular trait. The point is, how the trait is written into the story is more important than what the trait actually _is_ in determining if it's a proper flaw or not. I used a spy as an example. Perhaps I worded it badly, so let me rephrase. You have a spy protag whose paranoid nature ruins his relationships. The only plot-relevant relationship he has is a femme fatale enemy agent setting up a honey trap. You haven't written other consequences of paranoia into the story. In this context, the "flaw" ends up only being helpful to him, so it still not ends up being a meaningful flaw.
@@zerothefaceless4888 let's agree to disagree.
Personally i believe a flaw can be justified or beneficial or it can be used to the benefit of a character but it is still a flaw.
Batman would be dead if he wasn't so distant and cinic(probably slaughtered that word sorry) doesn't change it from a flaw and it's treated like one.
Personally i consider it even better when a character uses their flaw in their benefit (i just finished an Anime where that was basically one of the main premises needless to say i loved it)
The "rarely faces consequences" is something that REALLY bothers me in a story. A character will do dumb stuff going against the advice of people that clearly knows better, but then either nothing happens or the dumb action actually makes things better, essentiatly rewarding the bad behavior.
Yeah, it completely takes the impact of Rey being reckless enough to try change Kylo Wren in TLJ. Overambition would have been a good character flaw for Rey to have, and that part in TLJ set it up well as she just gets captured by Kylo Wren with seemingly no change. But then the movie just negates it later by having it work out it the end.
That's precisely why Korra pissed me off so much in Legend Of Korra. Here was Aang's kid, an old Air Bender now trying to teach her stillness and peace of mind in order to air bend and she can't learn it and rages that he's stupid and doesn't know what he's doing and was a bad teacher.
Then she air bends later without using any of his advice, basically proving her right that yeah he is a dumb old man and she basically didn't need him. Then HE apologizes to HER despite her being a snotty brat to him and it being entirely her fault.
It only gets worse from there.
@@SirBladewind To be fair, lok was intended as 1 season show, later 2 season show, only after that nickelodeon was like "yep, this should a full show" and ordered seasons 3 and 4. Even Atla would've been just okay show with such messy planning and deadlines.
And pricks like E:R were insulting Bryke. I mean what could you expect from a supposed "critic" , who didn't even review the whole thing, just the first season and beginnings episode, despite having 8 BIG VIDEOS ON THE HIS CHANNEL ABOUT LOK. He even reviewed after-finale comics, without reviewing the final season. And he got more subs than this channel, somehow
@@darkleome5409 I kinda agree with ER why it sucks though. It basically ignores all regular canon to make Korra stupid powerful for no reason and barely gives her consequences for her bad actions. Her bending was gone for all of 5 minutes. She learns almost all bending as a CHILD when Aang learned it in a year and only after he had mastered air bending and was considered a prodigy even among avatars, ect.
Nevermind the horrible romances they jammed in there that just kind of derailed the plot for no reason.
LoK was garbage.
@@SirBladewind lok being garbage doesn't make him a good creator. It's pretty telling if someone couldn't even do a good critique of a bad show.
Also, why are you describing to me how lok is garbage, as if I said it was good.
Today I learned that “a trekkie’s tale” was a satirical parody. I went from hating it to loving it in 15 and a half seconds
Yeah, that's something a lot of people don't mention. Paula Smith, as far as I've read, was an editor that noticed an epidemic of odd fanfiction entries that all had young female geniuses playing out a personal fantasy with Spock, Kirk and the rest of the ship. And then she made fun of it all lol. Paula Smith is old school Toxic Brood.
@@LiteratureDevil Lol, it’s a good thing she did that though, her OC has given us an amazing case study of this brand of poorly written characters. It’s fitting, and deliciously ironic that we put abortions like Rey in a catagory named after an ironic take on them. Kinda like naming a new species after the scientist that discovered it
The trope is usually a joke
“A Trekkie’s Tale”, in my opinion, shows when creating a Mary Sue is appropriate. The work is a parody, subtly poking fun at self-inserts and is mostly there to have a good laugh.
Clearly the modern usage has transcended, surpassed, and eclipsed the original example.
Way to miss the point dude
Okay I can appreciate this. Its like that comedy where the dude keeps imagining himself in the Rambo movies. Anyone remember what that was?
@@sinwithagrin4243 wasn't that weird al in UHF?
Like that one episode of The Boondocks, "The Lovely Ebony Brown" where Riley meets the super talented, philanthropic, and drop dead sexy Ebony Brown (she even seems to magically cure a disease onscreen, she's just that awesome) and even Uncle Ruckus can't be his usual toxic racist self because she brushes off his insults and even he becomes attracted to her, and she is only chased away because of Riley's paranoia and insecurities, but he comes out stronger by reopening his Facebook and getting back into the dating ring.
Like A Trekkie's Tale, the scenario is ridiculous enough for the audience to realize it's a parody. But with Rey, it's just painful.
Ahem...(paraphrasing a legendary movie)
"If you're afraid of good writing, and you're holding on (to your first draft), you'll see Literature Devils tearing' your script apart. But if you've made your peace (with the fact you're a bad writer), then the Literature Devils are really Literature Angels, freeing' you from being a hack. It all depends on how you look at it."
Lol! Fantastic
Great one!
Source please?
@@Ramsey276one The movie is called Jacob's Ladder.
@@PunxsutawneyDave Thanks
I find that the best way to write a character flaw is to take a positive trait and flip it on it's head- a character is exceptionally talented and skilled at a young age? They will probably be arrogant to a certain degree. A character is noted for their Loyalty? Test that loyalty, demonstrate the flaws of being too loyal to a person/idea/belief/country/cause. A character is Strong? put them in situations where their strength is tested, or is useless, if not detrimental, make them feel or become powerless and have them struggle with the fallout, the self doubt. A character is Heroic? Give them a reason to hate something or someone, put them in a situation where they will be severely tempted to seek revenge. Show the fallout from their rage.
Very true.
Fully agree
That's EXACTLY how the best writing comes about. Totally agree with you man.
The best strengths are those that can be flaws. And the best flaws are those that can be strengths. Add dimensions to it.
Agree 100%.
Commanding Officer: "All right McKill, you're the most seasoned, experienced, martial artist, technician, and doctor in our highly elite special forces unit despite only being 19! We're going to need to you to go into the enemy camp and single-handedly defeat all the enemy soldiers and rescue our men"
Tony McKill: "But sir, I'm a lousy cook."
Commanding Officer: "Good God. We're gonna have to scrap this mission."
LOVE THIS
The villain should be a famous chef.
@Patrick Frost the main villain is Gordon Ramsey. If he can’t have the lamb sauce, no one can...
Today it would be more like "Ok, we'll have to send a cook along with you to show that you're no Mary Sue because you need someone to make you supper".
Btw, irl people have actually taken an entire enemy camp by themselves and even a small town, search for Leo Mayor
Real life doesnt have any necesity to be "realistic"
To be a writer is to be a thinker. Thinking is something that must be practiced. Assumptions must be challenged. New information must constantly be sought. In a way, writing is thinking. It's the record of what goes on in our heads. To write great words, we must think great thoughts.
As an aspiring writer, this all too true. (apologizes for the rant to come I'll make it as short as possible)
One such example is a game called Persona 5 Royal, a remake with extra content that is beloved by all. I played this game, once I beat it for the first time I was unsatisfied. So I sat on it and after a while I came to the realization that it was terrible because A: show don't tell B: no stakes/conflict.
I played it again and it was even worse then I imagined, when pointing these flaws out the fans lashed back at me for daring to say that their masterpiece is a pile of crap.
Moral of the story, it's hard being able to think.
@@Xxgxxaxx PMD: Explorers of Sky and Ace Attorney Investigations 2 have the best stories imo, though they do it in very different ways.
@@aakarshasoka6335 well I'm not exactly knowledgable in ace attorney (never played any of the games) same goes for explorers of the sky so, good on ya mate?
*looks at the ridiculous money the sequel movies brought in*
To quote ERB's Michael Bay, "If there's one thing I learned it's this game is about MOTHER FUCKING MONEY!"
Of course, Disney is reaping the long-term effects of that decision, but still.
@@jayjaydeth Amazing how much people will pay for a nostalgia inducing brain candy, isn't it?
Whatta ya know, this sums up RWBY. Ironwood got demonized for going against Ruby, and Emerald got redeemed over the course of 5 minutes.
I was about to say I didnt think Ruby is a Mary Sue and that I didnt remember that scene.
Then I remembered I dropped the show after Volume 5... Glad I did...
@@axios4702 Adel aka is the only reason I know. I dropped it after V6.
@@nocount7517 I loved that show you know. I found it in my early teens when they had just finished volume 2. The music, the fight scenes, the characters. I loved watching as they got more budget and everything gained in quality... It was awesome!
And then the creator died, and everything went downhill from there... Like the rest of Rooster Teeth did.
@@axios4702 They got woke, they went broke. Along with all the horrible mismanagement and the #KickVic scandal.
#StandWithVic
Glad someone mentioned RWBY. Was just watching an video about the shows nonsense.
So you’re saying that “The Lion King” has better plot and character development than the sequel trilogy? I mean...you’re not WRONG...
The lion king is basically hamlet in Africa with cats so yeah
Rey's desire for parents is a meta flaw anyway. (Is that the right way to say it? I'm going to say it's the right way.) In TFA, she never says she doesn't know who her parents are or that she doesn't remember them. She says she is waiting for her family. When Maz Kanata tells her whoever she is waiting for is never coming back, Rey seems to accept this. She moves on.
BUT SUDDENLY, in TLJ she is obsessed with who her parents were. Why does it matter? Because the audience cares. It's so annoying.
well put. a classic example of a writer succumbing to the desires of the fans, even though the decision makes no sense for the story.
You're using meta correctly, rest assured. I'm an autodidact etymologist.
I never seen TLJ or RoTS but I thought or dare even say I liked TFA, but I haven't watched them but it seems like they had no idea what to do with the stories and characters. It was speculated at first, and I think then later confirmed by the actors/actresses that they didn't know where the story was headed. I also heard and don't get them crapping on the OG characters. Also I think Finn was wasted, Reylo makes no sense, and they didn't need to add some characters like Rose Tico.
@@RollingDodge I heard suggestions that when Forehead did the second movie, he deliberately ignored the plot threads he was given, and refused to properly set up the threads for the third movie. Part of his "innovation" was all of a sudden bringing Rey's parent concern back in. TBF, Abrams got pissed at this, and not only sunk all the threads Rian set up, but then went off script and added things that directly retconned Rian set up.
@@RollingDodge That's commodification for you. The sequels are just drawn-out commercials, more concerned about ticking off checkboxes than making a cohesive or original narrative. Like, did you really think we might get a bunch of stormtrooper characters who have no one else besides each other, end up deserting and try to somehow survive, only joining the resistance after they run out of options?
I know, that's too original and might be too dark for the kids, unlike Luke cutting off the Yeti's arm.
wait, a thing from you!? IS THIS A MIRACLE!?
@Sasuke Is better than you how dare you
@Spare Slipstreamz I have no clue, I am just pulling shit for laughs :P
@Spare Slipstreamz No worries! :) We cool!
now back to my hibernation and to wait for a new video
Me: this character is a Mary Sue.
Author: not he's not.... he's bad at knitting.
Maybe if the story revolved around a textiles competition it could actually count as a flaw?
8 seconds in and it's already a great video. Text, "Can a Mary Sue have flaws?" Audio, "Can a Rey have flaws?"
LOVED THAT
XD
Especially because Rei is Japanese for ZERO and Flawless Miss Palpatine is a plot black hole with ZERO CHARACTER
I remember someone trying to claim Luke piloting an X-wing makes him a Gary Stu, that was their only arguement
It IS technically an argument. It's just a terrible and empty one lol
It seems common for characters to be good at 1 or 2 skills before the story starts.
If someone has a long list of excellent skills they probably aren't written very well.
It's hilarious that since Rey came along, people started claiming Luke and Anakin were Gary Stu when they aren't. It also reminds me how in response to Ep.7 being a Ep.4 ripoff, someone told me Ep.1 was a ripoff of Ep.4 LOL
@@Deuteromis the only thing they had in common was a star vessel blew up, I don't think they really even watched Ep. 1...
@@MenxiGoblinQueen That or they haven't seen it in a long time. Their justification were cause both featured Round ships, Tattooine, and the Jedi had to rescue someone of royalty. Still had a good laugh reading it.
It’s a common rule that any flaws a Mary/Gary Stu may have will be nullified and even prove to be a boon to both them and their allies/friends.
Failure to comply will eventually result in the destruction of said fictional universe and force a reset, thus is the natural order of things.
In other words, Sues don't matter, this video is stupid, and writers should focus more on cause-causation instead.
@@pmester228 Eh, It's more like if your characters have a flaw, let that flaw carry the story. Yes, cause and effect are part of that.
Now, my personal theory is that what is a Mary Sue in one context can fail to be a Mary Sue in another context.
An explanation for those interested in a more thought out answer below:
So it's like if you wrote a Batman story but instead of replaced him with Superman and try to continue like it was Batman. The problem is that the themes of Batman don't work with Superman as the protagonist (unless you change what makes superman tick which is why injustice works so well). Superman is a character who has already achieved what Batman hasn't: Trust (in friends, Family, other heroes, his abilities). Batman has to train his body nonstop to match his abilities with other heroes, has backup plans just in case any superhero goes awry, trained everyone he considers family in martial arts (not usually Alfred, but he does have experience in finding information depending on the version), and he has for Superman, who in most situations is friends from what I have seen, a plan just in case he has to end him. If you replace Batman with Superman and try to communicate the same themes through him, Superman would seem like a Mary Sue. For a considerable situation let's look at this situation: This is the final issue of this arc. Joker has threatened to blow up all of Gotham with a multiple bombs placed thought out the city to break the mind of the hero even further. If this was Batman who had to solve it, he would find the bombs through clues he picked up in the story previously. If he has had trouble relying on allies in this story and fails to catch Joker because he found a way to get Damien to hang out with the Titans because he didn't want him to get hurt, a natural conclusion is either for him to get help getting citizens out of Gotham with the help of those like Superman and the Flash or ask them to gather them all up and throw them into space. Just assume that other situations with other heroes had happened as well. Superman, on the other hand was said in the story to have the same troubles and deal with them the same way, would have likely just have spread through the town himself and disposed of the bombs in space. At face value (since), the theme of trusting others to help you out in tight situations wouldn't apply in the second one if that's what you're trying to communicate to the audience primarily in this story because the logical endings of both situations are different with both of these characters. It would feel like it was too easy for him because of his abilities and other qualities. Luckily, this has been avoid because Superman has had many good writers over the years that knew how to characterize him. To summarize, a character might be a Mary Sue in another context or story is because the themes of that story are not reliant on anything that would the character interesting or meaningful.
@@joshuayonemura2572 I'd still argue Rey isn't a Mary Sue...
She's an action figure.
Let me explain why. You see, I've been writing a character for one of my stories, Ághel, a female white dragon who's into martial arts and is basically the strongest person so far, as long as magic isn't involved.
Her whole motivation is that she loves the thrill of fighting, and even after such a long time, she still views sparring as a game. Now, I thought to myself, "Wouldn't other martial artists call that out, thinking she would be nowhere near as stellar in a life-or-death situation?"
Well, she would still be very effective, but that little note about the character made me think. You see, it's an indicator. These are things I didn't plan for, but they were a welcome surprise once I started working the character out.
Rey has none of these. She grew up on a desert planet, without any kind of a guardian figure, we don't know how others saw her, if she had an uncanny ability to ROFL-stomp her enemies that would have invoked fear in others. She isn't a Sith experiment either. She doesn't look in awe at forests or large bodies of water, she would probably not have any trouble swimming either.
Why? Because she's there to look cool! Why a woman? So that Disney could virtue signal and also have free marketing via Twitter. Why the backstory? A mixture of nostalgia and a half-baked certificate of badassery, just enough to fit on the box as flavour text. Why fangirl over Han Solo? Because she's also a vessel for the audience, like one of those ReaderXSomething stories.
Sure, that one noteworthy surprise I added to Ághel's bio was mitigated, but because she has been practicing combat moves for a hundred years and they were drilled into her body. She still loses against her mate once magic is allowed in the spar and she still has to work on adapting to new situations, and using those drilled-in moves effectively.
Good luck finding that type of depth in Rey's fighting style. You'd think she would have a lightsaber-resistant quarterstaff or a double-sided lightsaber, considering that scene in TFA. But nope, she's now a Jedi temple guardian. Though they did use double-bladed yellow lightsabers, so that's a double fuckup.
But again, the dual-balded lightsaber is probably reserved for the Darth Rey action figures.
@@pmester228 You're right. Also my statement holds up. If she was actually a character... I mean actually had a personality she could be a well-written character in a different context. Actually, it would work in a universe where everyone is more powerful than her, but then again, you would need to write her a personality.
@@joshuayonemura2572 Being weaker isn't necessary.
If you’re not going to write the character with a specific flaw, like, “Anger Issues” “Greedy” “Insecure” Etc, you should make the character naturally make mistakes like every other human being. For example, you can have the character miscalculate on a strategic plan, and have that mistake be meaningful by causing thousands of lives to be lost in the war, and have the character be weighed down by the guilt that he, she, or other, caused it.
One example of this alternate trope (Which is rare) can be found in two stories: Marvels Miles Morales, the intro specifically, and Moana. In the beginning of Miles Morales, Peter Parker is established to be a well-trained Spider-Man with years of experience under his belt, and yet against a villain known as The Rhino, who he has defeated several times, loses. He didn’t lose because of some deep-seated flaw- he just lost. He didn’t do good enough, and because of that, he gets knocked unconscious, with fatal injuries, with his apprentice going against a dangerous villain ALONE because he didn’t do good enough. Moana, in the climax, calculates that she and Maui may be able to use maneuver over to some rocks, (I haven’t seen the flick in a while, so some details may be skewed) they try it, and they *fail.* Moana didn’t have overconfidence or cocky as a flaw- she was just wrong. She made a mistake. She miscalculated, and because she did, Maui’s hook broke, and he gave up on the mission, Moana has a depressed mood, and the darkest hour kicks off. The important thing about the “Mistake” style of writing is that each mistake should have proportionate consequences.
Stuff like that (aka risky moves going wrong for apparantly no reason but chance) sounds like good setups for plots. "Years ago, Group X tried to pull off plan Y, but they failed and disbanded. Years later, an event related to the failed plan forces the old cast to come together again." Ha, might as well be the plot for an agent or action movie.
@@spacejunk2186 It’s not a chance-based failed plan, it’s a human mistake. The strategic situation going wrong doesn’t go wrong because there was a 70% chance it could go right, it goes wrong because the character didn’t form his strategy well enough. They simply didn’t do good enough. Peter could have done better, but he made a mistake. He accidentally got shoved through a building, he didn’t try hard enough, maybe he didn’t think to that he needed to commit all effort since Miles was helping, (That is more of a flaw than a mistake) but quite frankly, we don’t win every fight we go into. The person we beat the last two encounters may kick our butts in the third round. Moana made a miscalculation- she didn’t account for the lava monster hurling the lava toward her, she didn’t think to test it’s range, and had Maui go up against something he already failed to defeat once before. The two situations are human mistakes, and since human mistakes aren’t as commonly used in writing, it’s what interests me.
It's funny that they also did that with Rey but they bailed halfway making her mistakes randomly turn into good things
@@OK-yy6qz Or making the mistakes inconsequential, Aka the Chewie fake-out death.
@DJHart What do you mean? List an example.
Even the master detective Sherlock Holms has flaws, some caused by his mastery. Holmes also use drugs when bored. Doctor Watson are the more normal person there to bring a more normal perspective. Keep in mind that Watson as a doctor are more intelligent and well educated then an average person.
Regarding the original Mary Sue character (actually named as such) are a deliberate parody on the concept of thease characters, a criticism created for this purpose. In comparison the "Leroy Jenkins" character also started out this way, as a parody. The guild was in on it in the World of Warcraft video when he first started out.
Yep and ironically the plan was doomed to fail without Leeroy.
Big spoilers for Hot Fuzz
I view the character of Nicolas Angel is a deconstruction of the Mary Sue. At the start, we get a montage of showing how he's a hyper competent officer who can do everything, win every fights against crime, all that flawlessness... Until he got stabbed in the hand by a mall Santa, things kept going down hill from there, his entire department hates his guts for making them look bad, his girlfriend dumped him because of his obsession of the job. Moving to Sanford wasn't any better as it's department was a joke, which making it worse as they shoots down anything he points out about the series of "accidents" alluding to a murder mystery, hell, even his conspiracy theory was debunked by the villains reveal. It was until he embraced the ridiculousness of it all and let go of his by the book obsession, he finally put up a fight against the evil of Sanford and uphold the law. His flawlessness in a way became a vehicle for his flaw, his obsession with the rule, which he has to overcome to beat the challenge he found himself in.
Rey was able to swim despite being on a desert planet a vast majority of her life to the point where seeing rain mystified her.
There was also the time where Snoke's guards purposefully changed the directions of their swings without any input from her in order to avoid killing her. Also that second knife one guard had that was edited out because she'd be dead the second time that same fight.
"Yes, But..."
Kirito, from Sword Art Online, massive Mary Sue, is portrayed as having trust issues and being bad at making friends, But... He still makes a bunch of trusted friends and gets a wife.
Bella Swan (And this applies to many other teen romance protagonists) is described as having a very plain appearance, But... she still gets the attention of every attractive guy who sees her.
Mary Sues have flaws that don't matter. They're clumsy, but only in the light hearted scenes. They lack an important skill for the universe they're in, but it never comes up when they would need it.
Perhaps even lacking that skill IS an advantage. Take Batman in Act of God, where the fact he had no super powers is what makes him the bestest evar. (I'm not saying Batman is always, or even often, a Mary Sue, but with so many writers over so many decades, many comic book characters are Dozens of Wildly different people at different times.)
The other "Yes, But..." is "The narrative doesn't recognise it as existing". Many Mary Sues (Such as the classic Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way from Harry Potter fanfic My Immortal) can be arrogant, quick to anger, brutally violent in retribution to perceived slights, possibly manipulative... a sociopath, effectively. But... the writer doesn't seem to see anything wrong with being that kind of person.
Note, this comment was made Before watching, and I'm curious to see how much my position lines up with LD.
Yes. Kirito, the guy who lost every major battle he was in, almost died four times , was fatally paralyzed and lost the " wife" he got multiple times through the story is a Mary Sue. Not to mention the fact that nearly every season he's constantly being reprimanded by literally every other character in the anime and only survived the first season because the girl who would eventually become his girlfriend saved him. I agree with what you say what Mary sues but don't include examples of things you know nothing about.
@@-Extra_Lives
Holy Shit, an actual SAO defender. I thought such things existed only in myth...
The only time I remember Kirito getting his ass kicked was so he could pull a Jesus Christ and come back from the dead to beat a physically invincible villain because the rules stopped working in his favor.
Reality Literally rewrote itself to allow Kirito to succeed. It's one of the defining traits of a Mary Sue, but even 14 year old fanfic writers are usually not so utterly blatant.
I can't speak for the later seasons, but even before he became so powerful he rewrote the laws of the universe he already had powers literally no-one else could have (Other than the AFAIK Anime only error where some nameless rando also dual wields, before Kirito murders him.), He has informed flaws of being a loner while also picking up a harem, people hero worship him... I'm inclined to believe that any chewing out he receives has 0 negative effect on him beyond adding to his list of reasons to brood before Another woman comes up and fawns over him.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the show got good after season 1. But what I saw was garbage. And then it turned out to be Such garbage, it became a meme to point out how much it sucked.
@@calemr
Dude, SAO is consistent in being inconsistent. Just because Kirito suffered, doesn't mean he suffered BECAUSE of his flaws. If his flaw was failing to cooperate with others, then WHY IS HE MORE SOCIAL TO THE POINT THAT HE HAS A HAREM?
If his Loner Flaw played a part in the story, he would be a loner with Great Power that doesn't care about people and keeps his distance. And, when Asuna comes into his life, he opens up to her BUT he insists on living out a peaceful married life with her in order to keep her safe when in reality, he's dragging her into his own selfishness. This selfishness then results in him not using his Great Power and "someone he loves dearly" suffering as a result which then prompts him to finally realize his flaw and start cooperating with others so people like that "someone he loves dearly" won't get hurt.
In short, stories always have thematic, moral, or personal character conflict and SAO Abridged kinda delivers this.
I don't know why SAO are now become topic but people tend to forget predecessor of SAO type anime and LN, it's called Hack: Sign. Yeah i kinda old schooler.
@@yudhiadhyatmikosiswono9082
What does that have to do with what we're talking about?
If you mean “Can a Mary Sue have flaws that will negatively impact them?” The answer is no. The plot revolving around the character is what makes a Sue a Sue. Can’t have any of that pesky learning from your mistakes.
Exactly. Mary Sues can only have flaws that ultimately only serve to be easily overcome and work to the boon of them. Case in point: Rey having powers she can't control, but learns to control them after like 5 minutes, which makes her even more powerful, more special, more awesome, with no pain on the way.
Or they just have flaws that no one cares about or a flaw that no one in universe brings up.
Ehh I disagree, plot revolving around a character could describes many main/central characters, so I don't think that's accurate. It's more of the plot, the other characters, or the universe bending for the character, the story getting sacrificed just to make the character look good is what I think makes a someone a mary sue.
Of course. It's just that the flaws are in the writing, not the characters.
@Star Killer I think "your" character is too overpowered, but still not as Sue as Rey done.
@@hafirenggayuda He still died against the Emperor and would lose to Luke.
@@emberfist8347 like I mentioned before, he is very strong but the fate of the world don't revolve around him.
As a writer myself, struggling to write characters people will care for, I often dread that my MC has become a Gary Stu. This sort of video is what I need to critically analyze my character, and the world and lore surrounding him. Thank you!
I have an idea for an aware Mary Sue. I just need to learn their traits.
Hope you got what you want tho!
Get some practice and get others to read drafts, man! Seriously nothings more beneficial than critique
I just like to daydream little cartoons in my head while I pace, and even I take flaws into account even if its just to amuse myself more in my terribly "written" ''cartoons" :p
A trekkie's tale is such a good parody. I love the logic she has a national holiday honoring her but it isn't really national holiday because it is only on the Enterprise a Starship.
I don't even think a Mary Sue has to be "the" best, I've absolutely seen Mary Sue characters who were intentionally kept a rank or two lower than the canonically strongest people. Like having your original character "only" be the third strongest after Goku and Vegeta, or having him be only slightly weaker and less intelligent than Superman or Batman, or they give them weird limitations like a character being faster than the Flash but with the limitation of only being able to run in a straight line at high speeds, so he can't zig-zag around enemies, only get fast from point A to B.
Also tired of hearing many white-knight fans defend Mary Sues by claiming those only exist within fanfiction...
@Itachi Is superior to you Naruto (the manga) has so many characters that could be considered Mary Sues that Sasuke doesn't even really stick out too much.
Naruto, Itachi, Kakashi and Kin/Ginkaku are the other noticeable ones in my opinion.
Naruto is self-explanatory as he's Ninja-Jesus.
Itachi and Kakashi were shilled for on a constant basis by every character in the story and at least Kakashi had some rule-breaking powers, though Kakashi also had some big flaws, which however, were never acknowledged by the story itself.
Kinkaku and Ginkaku are literally on the tier of bad fanfiction characters some 5 year old designed.
@@Dionysus24779 I wouldn't say Kakashi was inherently a Gary Stu, but Shippuden really took its toll on consistency, the end of that story was a shitfest of infinite chakra.
@@Dionysus24779 I know a character who is almost, if not straight up borderline, a mary sue, but because of white knights, sjws, "edgleord" super young kids basically worshipping her almost like a goddess (almost like gadget, who is from disney's "chip & dale" cartoon series, being worshipped as a religion-like cult in Russia, though is character isn't as badly worshipped as her) and will defend her from everything and NOT allow you to dislike her, I can NOT mention her name...
Mary Sues have existed in established canon in franchises long before the advent of Rey.
Remember Wesley Crusher?
The character that had its own newsgroup called alt.wesley.crusher.die.die.die?
The character that Gene Roddenberry even admitted to being his Canon Sue?
Was there ANYONE in the world who actually liked that character?
To be fair, that Flash example actually sounds like a cool power that has limitations that would still keep the Flash relevant. I could absolutely see a "super speed sprint" power not overtaking rhe Flash's slot.
I feel like a better comparison between Luke and Rey's impulsiveness can be found in comparing Empire Strikes Back and the Last Jedi.
In Empire, Luke recklessly and impulsively ends his training and rushes off to save his friends, even against the warnings of Yoda and Obi-Wan. What happens? He gets his ass kicked, looses a hand, has his reality shattered with the big reveal, and puts his friends in danger by forcing them to save him.
Compare this to when Rey rushes off to confront Kylo in Last Jedi. What happens as a result? Snoke and his guards end up dead, she breaks Luke's lightsaber, and then she swoops in later on the Falcon to save the day. Nothing really bad happens as a result of her "impulsiveness." It's not like her going to the First Order revealed the Resistance escape attempt; they did that with Finn's pointless subplot. The worst that happens is the lightsaber breaks, but they just fix it in the next movie.
Luke's impulsiveness has consequences for both him and his friends, Rey's just shifted who the main villain was (for the rest of the movie at least).
Or you could look at everyone's first lightsaber duels. Anakin and Luke both had training and they still lost to Sith Lords with decades of experience. Rey never held a lightsaber in her life and she beats a Sith Apprentice and I am not going to buy the excuse "he was injured and emotionally unbalanced." Because that didn't stop him from beating Finn who had held a lightsaber before and the bowcaster didn't knock him on his ass so he can still fight.
"See it's not a bug, its a feature!"
Oh my god he sounded like Harvey Cthulhu from Overlord DVD and I love it.
So if a character has certain strengths, but has flaws so severe that it has to be propped up by other characters ceases to be a mary sue? neat.
Yup. Power does not make one a Mary Sue. It's their power relative to the world and plot around them
It's not even omnipotence that makes a Mary Sue. It's what usually and often define them, but they don't have to be the most powerful character in the universe to be a Mary Sue. Take Bella Swan from Twilight. She is by far not the most powerful character in the story, she actually doesn't even have any relevant powers, especially compared to the people around her who are supernatural and extremely powerful creatures. Yet she shows every aspect of a Mary Sue.
The world revolves around her and everyone wants to please her. Anyone not trying to please her or who turns away from her is axiomatically wrong and needs to be put in their place. Logic and reason do not confine her, she is described as extremely average, even boring, yet everyone bends over backwards to please her.
The "perfection" in her case is simply that she cannot do anything wrong. She has no character flaws that have any relevant impact on the story, at least never to her disadvantage. Any flaw she has is "cute" (like her being clumsy, which causes her love interests to dote even more on her) or actually works in her favor like her brooding which the love intrests find irresistable for some odd reason. She is described as plain and average, yet every remotely important character in the world falls in love with her.
Another hallmark of the Sue is the total lack of character development. At least in worlds where the promotion from flawless mortal to god isn't provided. A Mary Sue CANNOT develop. There isn't any relevant character flaw that could be overcome, there isn't any "missing piece" of a character that could be assembled to make the character "whole", there simply isn't anything that can be done to allow her to grow because she already has reached perfection.
The fact that videos are still being made about the flaws around Star Wars ep 7-9 with such good arguments and details shows that these movies will be used in the future as text book examples of bad story writing.
Oh and be prepared to be called a man afraid of strong female characters.
I'm pretty sure you're correct and I'm already prepared lol
Well at least teacher has used TLJ in that capacity.
OML, the Kirk voice killed me LD :)
Time to pull out the D&D character sheet.
What I hate the most is when Mary Sues actually made mistakes but those mistakes were written to NOT be their fault, The writer will always reveal a plot point later down the line that the mistake was directly/indirectly caused by someone else so the writer's stupid attempt at trying to signal the audience that "See??? She's not perfect so she's not a Maru Sue!!!" became entirely meaningless and just nailed the character as the ultimate Mary Sue even more.
As a writer in training, there's a quote whose accuracy I've come to hate:
"Kill you darlings.
Make them suffer for what they want most.
Force them to confront that which they hate about themselves.
Give them tormentors that bring out the worst in them.
Tempt them with their worst vices.
Throw monsters at them who exploit their worst fears.
Not because you hate them, but because your job is to make your audience act the way you do: watch in horror, praying that some semblance of what they love will survive."
Im writing a story. Its follows people woth special abilities either being physical, psychic or a mix of the two. It follows a veteran of several fronts who is forced to become a guardian for a high ranking family. He's powerful because of his training but because He's so far detatched from training when he tries to save one of them he literally tears his own muscels down to the fibers leading to extensive medical issues. Am i doing it correctly? He has other issues but yhose are all under self control
Okay, I definitely needed this!
Honestly would assume a Rey type character when hearing Mary Sue but she's just the type of Mary Sue you don't want to make!
And thus continues the thrilling race of glacial video releases between Literature Devil and PSA Sitch.
Also, lets stick to only rey's 1st movie since no one here ever bothered to watch the other 2. *smirks
Lol!
I made it half way through the second one and I regret my decision.
@@tylrdean omg, someone should give you a medal. You are much braver than I. GG. I hereby prescribe you 4 hours of kitten videos to scrub your brain.
@@Draco_WarriorEX you will not bribe me withOMYGIDTHEYARESOFLUFFY
You know the "they let us go." carries more weight when you remember that the Stormtrooper missed them on purpose.
Oooooo new vidya
I was excited too. I missed these.
Same here we missed you man
It has been a while indeed.
This is useful to us all.
Literature Devil should start summoning more Demons to aid him in these videos, he is a Devil after all and they tend to lead legions of demons.
@@Visitormassacre If I remember correctly DnD Demons and Devils are two separate factions with very different methods. With the only demons to really skirt the line being Succubi.
Has my life been a lie?
15:14 If anyone is interested, the image representing "the Knights of Rey" is known as an Incorruptus, or White Knight, and is a seven-meter-tall magical battle mech from the White Knight Chronicles. I played it when I was younger, and had a lot of fun.
It's not an invisible castle. It's clearly a klingon bird of prey.
Good point lol
LD: Repeatedly asks how a flaw _"effects_ the story"
Grammar Nazi analysis: _Well played, sir._
Amazing analysis, I LOVE the re-imagined story line for Rey.
I’m a total literature and language nerd, so I love your content. Keep it up, one of my most favorite channels
I appreciate that Asoka was introduced as a mary sue and then had any entire episode dedicated to knocking her down and resetting her to a relatable and interesting character. It was done so well that she's now a fan favorite.
wow man, you should definitely be on the writing team of major movies. You understand how to get audiences engaged with the story in a natural way. The simple changes to the introduction of Rey to Rey meeting Han Solo would have made TFA watchable. I am assuming, with just the Rey character fix, you could fix the opening scenes of TFA. Why they made both sides incompetent in the opening scene has always bothered me. Good job on this.
Today is my birthday and I have to say this is one present I did not expect. Thanks for another great video Literature Devil.
Happy Birthday!
The Legendary Lit has returned once again
And I'm already working on my next one. Hopefully it won't take nearly as long
@@LiteratureDevil always welcomed. You always made some unique talks about tropes. I used your Superman video from last time to make a review about the problem of Overpowered characters in Anime
You want to know how I avoid a Mary Sue? I basically begin writing all characters as villains, and add virtue slowly.
sounds like the maturation process
Villain Sue is a Sub-Trope of Mary Sue. So is Anti-Sue.
Start with flaws and give strengths later
I love this process. Everyone has both good and evil in them, and it's interesting when you can see the negatives in a virtuous person or the virtues in a bad person.
One of my fav characters is someone who could be easily defined as a villain from the perspective of many, but he's on the side of the protagonist from the beginning and one of the "good guys" by consequence, but as the story progresses you learn more of him and how he truly cares for those who are close to him and how he slowly changes into a better person. He's still mad scientist by the end of it all tho, lol
@@Greideren who is it?
There is a light novel that the Mary Sue is the antagonist and the protagonist is a guy who doesn't like her but the Mary Sue likes the protagonist. The universe warps around Mary Sue's will and the story became a elderich horror where nobody understands the protagonist and everyone say he's evil or jealous.
It's a cool concept.
Name?
Bro, name????
sauce ?
@@crowthewicked8344 It's in Japanese and its been a while since I read it so I don't know what its like right now.
メアリー・スーには屈しない
Google translation: Don't give in to Mary Sue
@@peter-sw1pm メアリー・スーには屈しない
Google translation: Don't give in to Mary Sue
That was a lot of MacBeth in a minute-forty, sir. I appreciate the ‘primrose path’ reference quite a bit.
"..the narrative Hindenburg that is the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy."
Somebody send help, I'm dying!
"Anyone who opposes them is vile and evil and needs to be destroyed"
Me: "Wow, that sounds like current year politics to me."
also sounds like RWBY
I actually heard somewhere that A Trekkie's Tale was actually supposed to be a parody of Mary Sue/Gary Stu stories being written at the time.
It is. Paula Smith was an editor for a Star Trek Fan-Zine. From what I've read, she noticed a lot of fanfiction being sent in by house wives who's main characters all shared similar elements. Smith put together the most common elements and made A Trekkie's Tale. Since then, it has become one of is not the closest thing to a real study on the Mary Sue that we have which is why, even today, people who TALK about the Mary Sue still cite the story.
@@LiteratureDevil cool! I wasn't sure if you were aware of that, so I figured I'd mention it.
(also imagine if it turned out that the Disney movies were actually parodies and were never meant to be taken seriously)
I’ll never forgive UA-cam for making this video dodge my feed.
Great video LD!
Thanks! Very glad you liked it
This is one Hell of a great video. The thing I enjoy the most about watching your content is treating each as a lesson to be applied to my own story, and seeing how it applies.
Example: The short temper of the protagonist gets her into a fight where she's nearly murdered and if not for another character's judgment, the authorities would've never come to rescue her. This encounter leaves her pride completely shattered and has her questioning her abilities as a soldier. Because of this, she ends up doubting herself in crucial moments, like when she encounters the Hunters, this time, as their prey. She hesitates and doesn't immediately spring into action, meaning she got shot and wounded, with the Hunters deciding to go after her sister and leave her to the hounds. If it wasn't for her twin, she would've been devoured by the hounds.
In other words, one flaw led to the creation of another.
The reason this is relevant was that I was here thinking "Oh crap! Does the flaws I gave my protagonist negatively impact her?!" without realizing that I had basically already written that in there.
Wow. Great video! I love how you broke down the difference between real flaws and fake/informed flaws. More people need to watch this!
Rey is a good example, of course, but can you do TCW's Ahsoka Tano next?? Lol. She's just as big a Mary Sue as Rey. Her "flaws" cause no consequences for her - her bad behaviour is either ignored or rewarded by the narrative - just like Rey, Ahsoka is held faultless. And I'm rather frustrated that so few people recognize just how awful of a character she is, both in terms of writing and her actual personality/character traits.
Personally while I see where you're coming from, Ahsoka's flaw of recklessness is more a flaw of overconfidence. She believes she's as good as Anakin and Obi-Wan and it leads her to jumping the gun like they do sometimes, leading to situations where she's in danger, outplaying the clock until help comes and she does get reprimanded, or even more so flat out losing, such as when she thought she could go toe to toe with General Grievous, which she was shown immediately that she couldn't, being forced to retreat. Plus anyone that would do any serious reprimands would be disinclined to not because they love Ahsoka (although they do because basically she's their younger sister) but because THEY DO THE SAME THINGS. Anakin "Fuck the Council" Skywalker and Obi-Wan "Rules are a guideline" Kenobi are the ones tasked with telling Ahsoka "Circumventing your superiors is incredibly wrong" And of course, there is a war going on. Putting someone with a good tactical mind like Ahsoka in time out for a month for not following orders would be a detriment. The situation Ahsoka has to endure from her recklessness is considered punishment enough, and she does grow.
@@cgkase6210 "it leads her to jumping the gun like they do sometimes, leading to situations where she's in danger" Yes, in danger, but never harmed. Anakin lost his hand because he recklessly/overconfidently ran into a fight against Dooku. What has Ahsoka ever lost? Nothing. Getting a gentle scolding once or twice is not sufficient/meaningful consequences for the way she behaves.
Given what Anakin and Obi-Wan have experienced due to their own attitudes, they should have a lot of motivation to teach Ahsoka to do better.
And yes, there IS a war going on. That's why her behaviour in Storm Over Ryloth (which lead to the destruction of so many men and resources) should have been the end of her military career. One supposedly "good tactical mind" is not worth it if her ego causes so many losses. But instead she is babied and rewarded after that disaster, another sign of her Mary Sueness.
In regard to her growing... you may be interested in this Case Study series on Ahsoka's character growth. Each video goes over some of her characteristics to see where she grew and where she didn't:
ua-cam.com/video/LxqRA7TUr3o/v-deo.html
You know, until you pointed it out, I hadn't realized that House was a Mary Sue. Perhaps, that was a subconscious reason for quitting the show. And, that would have been an element of House's Mary Sue-ism: that no matter what evil he did--even going to jail--there were no real consequences to his insufferable actions. And, that even played into his phoney laimness.
But, what also amazes me, and this is most certainty not any smack on your creativity, is how in this relatively short video you were not only able to clearly outline, with blinding clarity, all the excruciating flaws of the Rey character as well as the entirety of the Disney Star Wars trilogy, but you also outlined a brilliant course of correction that would have rescued the train wreck of the Kennedy/JJ-verse from the well-deserved oblivion it is most certainly destined.
Fantastic job!
Ah, I love these. They always fill me with inspiration for what I should expect, not only from my media, but myself. Characters are important because they can help us acknowledge our own strengths and weaknesses. They can motivate us to our greatest potential and warn us of our potential downfalls. Acknowledging what makes both a good story and good character can help the viewer identify parts of themselves thusly in such a way as to understand their own story in life.
Also, you have great musical taste
Thanks lol. Really glad to hear that the video are helping out. Makes the work worth it!
@@LiteratureDevil You definitely are succeeding. I've listened to a number of your comics videos multiple times already. Seriously, you are one of maybe 2 creators who I am actually impatient for, out of my maybe dozen or so channels I actively follow (and the 200 hundred I passively am subscribed to in case something random catches my eye)
Summoning Salt is the other one. He makes speedrun world record videos
This opening question
I can hear the hatred
*_*laughs in Palpatine*_*
Once again, I'm reminded that few know this trope as well as you do, LitDev.
Great job as always!
Thanks! Glad you like it
There's an anime from last year that - while very dumb - I loved for how it dealt with this idea. My Next Life As a Villainess had a character who was born into wealth and privilege, had a special power of sorts (foreknowledge of the future of the setting), for whom everything always went right, and who everyone instantly fell in love with.
But.... it worked, because said character was INCREDIBLY stupid. She had no real appreciation of how good her circumstances were, often used her foreknowledge very poorly or inefficiently, constantly failed to understand what the people around here were thinking or feeling, and committed nigh-endless social faux pas. Instead of an invincible Mary Sue, everyone around her basically considered her a bombastic idiot, whose supreme lack of intelligence was offset by a genuinely good nature and boundless compassion for those around her. She ultimately 'won' not by any particular skill or strength, but simply because she actually gave a damn about the people surrounding her and would hear them out and try to help them - which meant that in turn, those people would always have her back.
Of course it can, the unbearable burden of perfection and the envy it causes in others.
Realistically, that in itself when done well can cause several flaws
Arrogance, insecurity of living up to the titles given, fear of said traits being taken away, stress from the pressure of keeping up appearances, feeling lonely since people see you more like a fancy item than a person, all things that can cause someone to slip up, falter, or otherwise not be the completely flawless person everyone sees them as
But Mary Sues do none of these
Daily reminder that twilight sparkle continues to be a well written character throughout each of her major arcs (individual mediocre episodes aside) but disney hasn't made a good movie main character in litteral years.
False. Everything after season 2 is trash.
Me after listening to the fanfic "what the actual ear cancer was i just exposed to?!"
...Wait, was that ACTUALLY a straight reading of the star trek fanfic of Mary Sue and not a summarization
If you thought that was bad, that was an intentional exaggeration of how people typically write these sorts of stories/characters. Imagine how bad the ones that come from the heart (or ovaries) are...
@@insulttothehumanrace3807 .....do i have to?
@@finalbladecrisis No, you do not have to, in fact your mind is healthier for not imagining it.
To be fair, it IS a parody.
That doesn't make it a very interesting- or good- read, though.
(Yet to watch vid)
“Can a Mary Sue have flaws?”
Yes. Its the fact they exist.
I remember the time Rey thought she killed Chewbacca. I was actually kinda impressed. I was not expecting them to be willing to do that. And then, they tell you Chewbacca was on another ship... The impact of the scene and my expectations with Rey immediately dropped...
Not a Rey fan, but wouldn’t a meaningful flaw be how she she’s everything in black and white? I mean that’s what makes her confront Snoke and put all her trust in Kyle Ren in the first place? And that’s what spurred Kylo to kill Snoke and take charge of the first order? I mean I guess it’s ultimately meaningless by Rise of Skywalker but that’s more JJ Abram’s fault.
the real thing is a flaw that would make another character bad or detestable is twisted into a positive for the mar sue. Oh, you talk shit to people, ignore orders because you're upset, and are snyde? that's just her being quirky and strong-willed. If you call her out on it you're the bad guy.
That actually seems to be the current trends. Heroes who come off as villains, but are revered as heroes.
I think this is what TVT calls a "designated hero".
Yeah I've been calling out a Mary sue for months stopped for months cause it looked like he was getting character development to not be a sue and then they go retcon the flaw I thought he had. Worst nobody thought he was a Mary sue but me
@@Depressed_Spider thankyou that'll be good in my search
I’ve noticed while watching some of Hayao Miyazaki’s films, most of his protagonists don’t really exhibit negative traits you would find in other anime protagonists. Goku is strong and determined, but him seeking out fighting can get him and his loved ones in danger; Light Yagami is brilliant and resourceful, but his egoism and god complex has lead him down a dark path; Jotaro Kujo is resilient and can remain calm in many bizarre confrontations, but he is prone to anger quite easily and can be rude to even his loved ones. The point is many protagonists, as noble as they are, do have flaws holding them back a bit that they work throughout the story to correct.
However, with Ghibli movies, or more specifically Hayao Miyazaki’s movies, his characters tend to be very noble and would often set aside their own ambitions to help others. In castle in the sky, Pazu abandons the comforts of his village to rescue Sheeta, a girl he met for less than a day. In Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind, Nausicaä risks her life to settle peace between the Ohm’s and humans in the final act. In sprinted Mononoke, Ashitaka tries to mend peace between the forest spirits and the humans destroying their forests. In Spirited Away, although Chihiro starts out scared and frightened, she grows and even puts her own goals of rescuing her parents aside to help No face and Haku. It’s a constant theme in Miyazaki movies where characters would put whatever ambitions or personal goals aside to help resolve conflict happening with people they only met for less than a day, yet despite the lack of flaws, these are still some of the most fondly remembered animated movies of all time.
You need to watch those again. You missed a lot.
It's... a bit more complicated than that.
Yes, Chihiro does start out scared and frightened, and even in the car ride has a bit of an attitude problem, and she gets better over the course of the story. She does grow within her story.
Princess Mononoke... no, Ashitaka doesn't have significant flaws or development in that movie, but he's really not the focus of that story either. There are however, faults and development in San, the members of the iron outpost, and the animal spirits.
Never saw Nausicaa, really need to get around to that.
Castle In The Sky... Pazu mainly goes to the bigger lengths to help Sheeta after learning more about who she is and the full scope of her plight, so there's a bit more to it than "a girl he met for less than a day."
Shame that TV Tropes' management is horrible nowadays with their admins just making some of the dumbest decisions so far.
Admin hypocrisy at its finest.
@Star Killer ....do you even understand what I'm talking about?
Can you elaborate? This is the first time I hear about this.
@@Abigdummy4life How is TV Tropes badly managed now though?
@@1685Violin the admins are pretty much huge hypocrites that ban you over a lot of trivial shit, on top of the purging of a lot of old stuff back then and discarding a lot of its fun-informal style.
If you scan on the Ask The Tropers forums and the I Would Like To Edit Again forums, you'll see what I mean I regards to the shitstorms.
Most people have moved to All The Tropes wiki because of such a bittersweet issue.
@@Abigdummy4life I thought some of the purging was justified because of the abuse on what an example of a particular trope is. Then there is the so called "Google incident" where Google started to remove ad-revenue from the website because of sexually explicit content shown on the website prior to 2014.
As for All the Tropes, it's not as well known because it is not updated as often as TV Tropes including many red links as those pages weren't made yet.
I stumbled into one of your videos, I think it was Why Rey is a Mary Sue and Luke isn't. I had just gotten done with an argument with someone on Reddit i think defending Luke from that status. Everything you said was backing me up and i totally felt vindicated and instantly subbed. It's been a while since you're latest video since then, but with how you've made your case each time, i'll wait however long it takes.
Rey has officially replaced Mary sue
She's its final form lol
@@LiteratureDevil mega evolution it is
That intro is always music to my ears.
I can't imagine the MC of my WIP *not* having her flaws. She's traumatized by a horrific childhood. Sure, she's a fierce warrior because of it, but it has made her angry, distrustful, and left her occasionally lashing out to hide her low self image. These are perfectly rational presentations of PTSD.
But those are also the launching points for her character arc. Without those flaws there is no MC.
I think the answer to this question ultimately depends on whether one considers "he doesn't know when to give up," "she gets very angry when ppl hurt her friends," and "they have a superpowered dark side that does terrible things such as delivering a one-sided beatdown to the sociopathic egomaniacal villain" flaws
(Flaw: Ambition) Example of the First One: A man is so ambitious that he begins to ignore his family. After achieving his goal he is left alone with no family now forever living a pathetic lonely life.
(Flaw: Naivety and Blindsided Loyalty) Example of the Second One: She has always trusted her friends even when they tortured civilians, she trusted them. Her friends said that this would help so she stayed loyal. She trusted her friends when they said she had to kill her family. She believed her friends to be kind and trustworthy so if they say that her family is evil then they're. She trusted her friends even when she died when her friends used her as a distraction to escape because those people hurted her friends so they had to be evil.
(Flaw: Lack Of Control) Example of the Third One: They after a fight sit in the dark realizing all the horrible things they've done, all the suffering and death they caused. They know they shouldn't feel guilty for destroying the base, but it wasn't just the base that got destroyed, civillians were killed and lives were destroyed. If only they hadn't lost control of "it", maybe then they could have found another way to destroy their base, one that wouldn't have caused the destruction.
To simplify: A flaw is whether it causes obstacles in the story and if the author treats it as a flaw. Someone with unchecked naivety could cause obstacles( Ex: Untrustworthy allies, dangerous situations.) but if the author doesn't provide situations where this trait causes conflicts then it isn't a flaw.
Ex 1: Hailey is very stubborn, rude, impulsive, and unloyal but the author doesn't show the consequences of their flaws so they don't have flaws.
Ex 2: Blake is very violent, impulsive, and aggressive to everyone but it doesn't stop them from completing their goals sp now these traits aren't flaws in the story.
Ex 3: Julie is a nonagreeable, argumentative, and verbally aggressive to everyone she sees as "below her". This causes obstacles in achieving her goal because everyone hates her. These would be flaws.
Just what I needed, a new Lit Dev video.
This is an excellent birthday gift. Thank you Mr Devil
Happy birthday!
Hey the Tutorial Demon has a nice voice. And good video as always.
This is why Saitama still works although he might be overpowered and break the universe’s rules he always gets shit from everyone. Not only that but his overwhelming strength has taken away meaningful struggles that he desperately yearns from battle.
Saitama is a "hero for fun". That is his greatest character flaw. He doesn't fight the villains to save people, he does it for the thrill of the fight. His motivation is entirely selfish. Once he became too strong for anyone to present a challenge he stopped caring about being a hero and villains the world over are taking advantage of this open window to wreak havoc. Nowadays Saitama's heroic interventions are mostly coincidental. He punches monsters he happens to come across, and those foolish enough to seek him out on purpose believing they can defeat him. Any monster who stays clear of Saitama is free to murder as many of the Earth's citizens as they want, and many of them are powerful enough to pull it off.
I imagine Saitama's growing circle of hero friends who desperately struggle to keep people safe are going to be the source of Saitama's growth, the way he eventually starts giving a fuck. If say, a particularly vicious monster kills Genos (for reals this time) or King, or Mumem Rider right before Saitama's eyes, that might trigger some growth in the character. Or perhaps the whole gang might ambush Saitama and give him a stern talking to, scorn him and write off their friendship because "They have more important things to do than hang out with a loser who can't be bothered to use his godly strength for the greater good." And then they go off to get bodied by the series final big bad or something. Saitama might then realize "Oh yeah, it doesn't matter if I get a kick out of it or not, I should do the right thing, I should one punch the monsters, because at the end of the day I won't ever be happy if I'm the only human left in a world of monsters. If only to avoid being driven insane from the crippling isolation, I should probably start caring about my friends and what THEY care about, saving people."
I dunno, if One Punch Man was a _serious_ show trying to teach its viewers a little something about human decency, that might be where it leads, a lesson about forgoing selfish desires and growing commitment to doing the right thing, even if the right thing is boring AF. WAAAAY too many people these days have Saitama's problem. They constantly seek out instant gratification, thrills and dopamine rushes. They remain glued to computer screens playing Apex Legends and whatnot for days and weeks and months and years, and don't do the grueling boring kinda of stuff that helps people build meaningful lives, like taking care of their health, growing valuable skills, putting in the work hours, becoming an attractive person, seeking out a mate, getting married and raising families, investing savings, etc etc. And then they complain later in life about their pathetic existence, their health problems, their lack of purpose, lack of wealth, loneliness, and go on to vote in a Nany State to take care of them. Or worst, they fall prey to far-left anti-white ideologues and start a political movement based on self-loathing, guilt and shame.
Having fun is all good and well, we all need some leisure time, but you need to set aside some time, I'd say even MOST of your time, for earning your keep by contributing something of worth to humanity. If you don't, you're just a selfish asshole and deserve to be sad and alone, like Saitama.
A character like Saitama doesn't need flaws though. He's sort of a flat character (in a neutral sense, not a negative one). Characters react to him. He inspires change and development in other characters as they address their own flaws.
It's also heavily satirical, so it's more acceptable for it to break traditional conventions as character arcs and development can now have a different utility than just telling a compelling story, but also the utility of criticising, mocking, or commentating on certain tropes or conventions within the wider genre.
Well there are some characters that don't have "flaws" but are often not seen as Mary Sues due to the nature of their role in the plot take Goku, Sonic the Hedgehog, or Marty Mcfly(First Back to the Future) While these characters often struggled sometimes and had to put in effort, non of them had a flaw that really caused them to lose, the struggle is in maintaining their composure or character inspite of the world trying to make them drop it. They had personality defects but often they wouldn't have too much of an impact on the plot itself or at least very minimum impact.
It’s also about the kind of story being told. Star Wars is meant to be an epic action drama. Dragonball is an action comedy that openly rejoices in not taking itself seriously. You’re not going to have the same kind of story impact from the character flaws.
Goku does have serious flaws that cause problems in some arcs.
Your point still stands, though.
You forgot Marty's response to being called "chicken" which he finally overcomes in the street race?
@@HasekuraIsuna That was in the second and third film, in the first that flaw didn't exist.
I'm pretty sure all those characters have flaws.
Goku's flaw from Dragon Ball Z stems from his desires - specifically in fighting strong opponents. He 'let' Vetega go so he could fight him again in the future, he 'tried' to let Frieza go for the same reason, he was 'willing' to blast the Supreme Kai if he got jn the way of him fighting majin Vegeta. Heck, this continues in Dragon Ball Super what amounts to Goku's actions 'causing' the Tournament of Power arc to trigger off.
Someone will have to fill in for the other characters you listed. I don't know enough about Marty McFly, and regarding Sonic I only know that his flaw somehow involves responsiblity (or lack thereof).
I wonder if the Devil covers about the Tom and Jerry live movie
I'm upset it took this long to get a technical video out. I can forgive you based on quality and length 😁
Rey can't be the Belle Delphine of Jakku. I don't think she had taken a bath in ages.
Lol!
Like all Mary Sues, Rey is made of Teflon - the environment has no lasting negative effect on her. Dirt doesn't stick to her, she's the only scavenger who always makes moral choices, and, despite living alone since early childhood, she has little trouble making new friends.
Being a Mary Sue is a flaw =D
I don't have time for LD's live streams but I always enjoy the videos
In Japan, they have the concept that beauty is only beautiful because it's inherently fleeting. This is most often mentioned in reference to the seasons. In a similar vein, a strong character can only be a strong due to their inherent weakness.
I want a story where the main character is the side character in a mary sue story.
Trying everything in his power to save the mary sue from the negative consequences of her/his actions.
@@spacejunk2186 I could imagine something like some Lara Craft clone or something skipping through the corridors of some ancient temple, completely ignorant of the fact that she is in danger, like stepping on a series of the cliche pressure plate-wall dart combo and the sidekick frantically grabbing a shield from a statue and blocking all the arrows. Then when they get to the end she turns and she sees him hunched over trying to catch his breath and she goes: "Try to keep up will you?"
Iirc, medaka box manga is something like that..the titular medaka is a mary sue, no two ways about it, but the focus later on shifts to her male friend who has no super special power at the start.
Aren't the Disney Star Wars pretty much that already? Just imagine Finn is the main character and there you go.
Now this would be pretty entertaining to read
"Can Mary Sue's have flaws?"
Excuse me, being a Mary Sue IS a flaw.
This video led me to the conclusion that flaws have nothing to do with the Mary Sue, but the lack of meaningful conflict is a core trait of the Mary Sue. It took me a year to get there, but I did.
You got it!
You know what could be an interesting twist? An anti-Mary-Sue.
A deeply flawed character that the universe bends itself to make the character seem perfect and this character is continually refusing the call the journey and is helpless, if not a victim to the whims of fate. And even calls out the universe insanity for them alone.
That is, the universe needs it's perfect hero and this chosen hero wants none of it, but is not allowed the choice to refuse.
Like a Cursed being who is blessed with God's curse.
There are a character type known as an "Anti Sue" filled with flaws and failiure. They are just as bad as Mary Sue characters. Thou what you describe isn't that either thou I do not what to such a character. Some heroes refuse the call to adventure for some time but the world doesn't bend to accommodate them.
Wasn't that Arthur in the Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy issue. Wasn't that most of the main characters in that series of books?
I guess you mean like a gambler that automatically wins all his gambles due to a higher power. Which makes him miserable since its not gambling if victory is a sure thing.
@@dbsommers1 Not a gambler but that kinda sounds like Saitama in One Punch Man.