Was Jesus' sacrifice on the cross really a sacrifice? | A short thought from NT expert Tom Wright
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- Опубліковано 24 кві 2024
- Was Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross really a sacrifice if Jesus knew he would rise from the dead? David Smalley, a popular atheist podcaster has been known to call this 'a bad weekend in human camp!' -- How does New Testament scholar Tom "NT" Wright respond to this objection?
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Ask NT Wright Anything Podcast
The show that connects you to NT (Tom) Wright’s thoughts and theology through your questions. Produced by Premier Unbelievable in partnership with SPCK and NTWrightOnline.
About NT (Tom) Wright: Tom Wright is one of the world’s leading New Testament scholars and the author of numerous books including Surprised by Hope, The Day The Revolution Began, Paul: A Biography and most recently Jesus and the Powers. He will be on the Unbelievable show talking about this very soon. Tom Wright is senior research fellow at Wycliffe Hall, University of Oxford. Wright is ordained in the Church of England and, among other roles, served as Bishop of Durham between 2003 - 2010. He is much in demand as a lecturer around the world and the author for the bestselling For Everyone commentary series and the New Testament For Everyone Bible translation.
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I think this question is very important, even if it's asked by people being a bit cynical. I don't think that answer made a serious effort to address it. It basically laughed it off and said "your question and definitions are wrong". But the question is valid and deserves exploration.
Just one example: are there in fact some precious things Jesus did lose permanently? (Such as an eternally unbroken relationship with his father. Thanks to the cross, he doesn't have that anymore. There will always be a moment in his memory where God's love for him turned to hate).
It may also be worth exploring whether God's relationship with his son after his incarnation changed in such a way that they both lost something forever. What if their relationship now, though full of divine love, is somehow lesser than before Jesus became human? If true, that's a huge sacrifice. Worth exploring, not laughing off.
I was hoping for more of an explanation of what Tom thinks a sacrifice is supposed to be, given that I have never practiced this sort of animal sacrifice
Aqui les dejo una posible respuesta, se las escribo en español porque de esta manera es más fácil expresarme aunque les confieso que también sé hablar inglés.
Esta es la respuesta: al momento de escuchar la pregunta me doy cuenta de que el problema principal es que un sacrificio es aquello que se da y ya no vuelve nunca, la persona que formuló la pregunta da a entender que lo sucedido con Jesús realmente no fue un sacrificio porque eventualmente Jesús resucita por lo tanto deja de ser un sacrificio ya que recupero su vida.
Tú puedes llegar a esa conclusión cuando tu perspectiva de lo sucedido con la crucifixión es bastante reducida, pero si tienes una perspectiva más generalizada viendo todos los aspectos incluidos en la crucifixión te darás cuenta de que realmente sí hay un sacrificio, esos momentos que Jesús pasó en la cruz esos momentos en los que Jesús fue torturado flagelado y esos momentos en los que por culpa del pecado que cargó fue separado del padre nunca más van a regresar a el, jesus sacrificio esos momentos.
Para mayor comprensión me gustaría explicarlo con una analogía: supongamos que tú, la persona que me está leyendo me dices que necesitas formarte en una fila muy larga para conseguir tu credencial de conducir el dia 25 de marzo de 8:00 a 12:00 entonces yo hago un sacrificio y te digo yo me formó en tu lugar desde las 8:00 hasta las 12:00 del dia 25 de marzo, tú dirás que no fue un sacrificio por qué eventualmente regresó a mi casa y descanso las mismas horas que pude haber descansado en el tiempo que me forme por ti pero eso es falaz ya que lo que sacrifiqué fueron las horas específicas de 8:00 a 12:00 del día 25 de marzo, no importa si llego a mi casa y descanso el mismo número de horas, esas horas qué sacrifique por ti el día 25 de marzo de 8:00 a 12:00 no me las va a devolver nadie por lo tanto es un sacrificio sucede lo mismo con Jesús en la cruz, esos momentos en que Jesús sufrió, esos momentos en que Jesús fue crucificado, esos momentos en los que fue separado del padre no van a volver a él. Es cierto que él regresa a la presencia del padre pero los momentos que él pasó en la cruz y separado del padre no se los va a devolver nadie el sacrificó su comodidad su posición y su inocencia.
@@raymondbee6419 gracias por escribir tanto! Esta es una explicación interesante. Pero me parece que estar sin Dios no les causa dolor a muchas personas. De verdad fue tan tortuoso a Jesus?
(Lo siento, el español no es mi primer idioma 💜)
@@aosidh Tu español es bueno no te preocupes jaja.
La afirmación de "Estar sin Dios no le causa dolor a muchas personas" se debe a que esas personas nunca han tenido a Dios en sus vidas, es como "si nunca has amado a nadie no vas a extrañar a nadie" si nunca has tenido a Dios obvio que vas a estar "bien" sin el y digo "bien" entre comillas " " por qué muchas veces las personas no están bien mentalmente, emocionalmente etc. hay cristianos (como yo) que somos completamente dependientes de Dios, mi relación con Dios es lo más importante, si el día de hoy esa conexión con Dios desapareciera sería el final de mi existencia.... No estoy exagerado
ahora, sabiendo que Jesús(hijo) y el padre(Dios) tienen una relación muchísimo más profunda que la que te mencioné, hace sentido que para Jesús la separación del padre fue algo fuerte.
Sin mencionar que también sacrificó su posición, su comodidad, ese tiempo que paso en la cruz no va a volver nunca, ese tiempo que paso siendo torturado no volverá nunca.
This is a, if not THE, fundamental question at the heart of Christianity in so many ways, and Wright entirely dismisses it by saying that's not what sacrifice means. Well sir, what DOES sacrifice mean, then? If sacrifice doesn't mean giving up something that means a lot to you, then you haven't answered the question, you've merely reworded it in a way that gives even fewer answers than we already had.
Shows the original question lacks knowledge of Christian theology.
Aqui les dejo una posible respuesta, se las escribo en español porque de esta manera es más fácil expresarme aunque les confieso que también sé hablar inglés.
Esta es la respuesta: al momento de escuchar la pregunta me doy cuenta de que el problema principal es que un sacrificio es aquello que se da y ya no vuelve nunca, la persona que formuló la pregunta da a entender que lo sucedido con Jesús realmente no fue un sacrificio porque eventualmente Jesús resucita por lo tanto deja de ser un sacrificio ya que recupero su vida.
Tú puedes llegar a esa conclusión cuando tu perspectiva de lo sucedido con la crucifixión es bastante reducida, pero si tienes una perspectiva más generalizada viendo todos los aspectos incluidos en la crucifixión te darás cuenta de que realmente sí hay un sacrificio, esos momentos que Jesús pasó en la cruz esos momentos en los que Jesús fue torturado flagelado y esos momentos en los que por culpa del pecado que cargó fue separado del padre nunca más van a regresar a el, jesus sacrificio esos momentos.
Para mayor comprensión me gustaría explicarlo con una analogía: supongamos que tú, la persona que me está leyendo me dices que necesitas formarte en una fila muy larga para conseguir tu credencial de conducir el dia 25 de marzo de 8:00 a 12:00 entonces yo hago un sacrificio y te digo yo me formó en tu lugar desde las 8:00 hasta las 12:00 del dia 25 de marzo, tú dirás que no fue un sacrificio por qué eventualmente regresó a mi casa y descanso las mismas horas que pude haber descansado en el tiempo que me forme por ti pero eso es falaz ya que lo que sacrifiqué fueron las horas específicas de 8:00 a 12:00 del día 25 de marzo, no importa si llego a mi casa y descanso el mismo número de horas, esas horas qué sacrifique por ti el día 25 de marzo de 8:00 a 12:00 no me las va a devolver nadie por lo tanto es un sacrificio sucede lo mismo con Jesús en la cruz, esos momentos en que Jesús sufrió, esos momentos en que Jesús fue crucificado, esos momentos en los que fue separado del padre no van a volver a él. Es cierto que él regresa a la presencia del padre pero los momentos que él pasó en la cruz y separado del padre no se los va a devolver nadie el sacrificó su comodidad su posición y su inocencia.
I agree, this felt like dodging the question by ridiculing it. I think it's perfectly valid to explore Jesus' acts of sacrificial love, and in what ways they were sacrificial. Some of his sacrifices may be temporary experiences of extreme pain. Others may be permanent losses (e.g. he'll always be human now, and will never go back to being in his original state). Worth exploring, but I haven't found any theologians doing so (yet).
I wish this session with NT Wright was released in its entirety. There is a reference in this video NT makes to something he said earlier. I'm fairly certain that reference is beyond the beginning border of this video.
Sacrifice is man's construct in deflecting an imaginary angry wrathful God. Did not God say via one of the later prophets "I hate your sacrifices I would rather have your heart (paraphrased). God the Father did not punish His Son in lieu of our sin, but rather co suffered and died for our sin. Did not Jesus the Christ say "Greater LOVE has no man than he who lays down his life for the other(s). The Son and the Father of the Triune God cannot be divided they are one in purpose. Infinite love grace and mercy! God's wrathful? The consequences of our actions in disobedience to God/Love's way shown by Jesus on earth. The atonement of Jesus is not punitive but one of restoration and reconciliation for ALL mankind. For those rejecting God/ Jesus? Thank God for Eastern/ Oriental Orthodoxy's retention of APOKATASTASIS. A more beautiful merciful Gospel. One that unreservedly drew me to God even more than my once Protestant Fundamentalism. An evolving partial understanding of God without diminishing my midlife Christian beginnings.
On the Cross God judged sin, Bible says it. Three things out Jesus on the cross..our sin, God's justice and God's love.
wether one dies for 3 seconds ,3days or 300 years ,it is still dying
I don't understand what Dr. Wright means; if Jesus can be equated with a sacrificial lamb, then what the atheist podcaster said, sounds right, does it not? If what Dr. Wright says is correct, then Jesus cannot be equated with a sacrificial lamb. If scripture does equate Jesus with a sacrificial lamb, then I can't see how Dr. Wright can be correct here.
Two thoughts, same logic.
One can't be a little bit pregnant.
Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice.
If God gives his word to the world (John 1:14) & then breaks his word on the cross (Matthew 27:46) did God break his word on the cross or not? (because if he didn’t then the Crucifixion never happened but if he did - why trust such a god?)
Matthew 20, 28
[28] even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Revelation 1, 5-6
[5] Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [6] and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
"Somewhere at the heart of the one God there is the agony of the world being borne and shared." Wasn't that truly Jesus' purpose-that God should be limited as a man? (Phil. 2:8)
Certainly Jesus' crucifixion was a "sacrifice." But the sacrifice was to the legal system that demanded it-remember, it was an unjust execution. So in a world demanding justice, Jesus willingly turned the other cheek, gave up his cloak, and walked the extra mile to his death. The sacrifice that grace will make.
I would rather go 3 days of torture than go a whole great life as an atheist then have to burn forever.
As an atheist it’s very hard to believe because there’s just no logical reason to believe it.
Folks need to calm down, grow up, show some good humor and even love, remember?
He answered a ridiculous bait question with a bit of humor while still working in some thoughtful material.
By our love, right? Not by our angry online pontificating.
I need to check myself on this point as well.
A great non-answer
Aqui les dejo una posible respuesta, se las escribo en español porque de esta manera es más fácil expresarme aunque les confieso que también sé hablar inglés.
Esta es la respuesta: al momento de escuchar la pregunta me doy cuenta de que el problema principal es que un sacrificio es aquello que se da y ya no vuelve nunca, la persona que formuló la pregunta da a entender que lo sucedido con Jesús realmente no fue un sacrificio porque eventualmente Jesús resucita por lo tanto deja de ser un sacrificio ya que recupero su vida.
Tú puedes llegar a esa conclusión cuando tu perspectiva de lo sucedido con la crucifixión es bastante reducida, pero si tienes una perspectiva más generalizada viendo todos los aspectos incluidos en la crucifixión te darás cuenta de que realmente sí hay un sacrificio, esos momentos que Jesús pasó en la cruz esos momentos en los que Jesús fue torturado flagelado y esos momentos en los que por culpa del pecado que cargó fue separado del padre nunca más van a regresar a el, jesus sacrificio esos momentos.
Para mayor comprensión me gustaría explicarlo con una analogía: supongamos que tú, la persona que me está leyendo me dices que necesitas formarte en una fila muy larga para conseguir tu credencial de conducir el dia 25 de marzo de 8:00 a 12:00 entonces yo hago un sacrificio y te digo yo me formó en tu lugar desde las 8:00 hasta las 12:00 del dia 25 de marzo, tú dirás que no fue un sacrificio por qué eventualmente regresó a mi casa y descanso las mismas horas que pude haber descansado en el tiempo que me forme por ti pero eso es falaz ya que lo que sacrifiqué fueron las horas específicas de 8:00 a 12:00 del día 25 de marzo, no importa si llego a mi casa y descanso el mismo número de horas, esas horas qué sacrifique por ti el día 25 de marzo de 8:00 a 12:00 no me las va a devolver nadie por lo tanto es un sacrificio sucede lo mismo con Jesús en la cruz, esos momentos en que Jesús sufrió, esos momentos en que Jesús fue crucificado, esos momentos en los que fue separado del padre no van a volver a él. Es cierto que él regresa a la presencia del padre pero los momentos que él pasó en la cruz y separado del padre no se los va a devolver nadie el sacrificó su comodidad su posición y su inocencia.
Who made a bigger sacrifice: Jesus or Prometheus?
Alienation from the father lol he knew wouldn’t give up on him. It wasn’t a real sacrifice at all. Btw how did they know what Jesus prayed in the garden on his own? It’s all so ridiculous.
Alienation yes. Because sin separates people from God, that's one of its defining characteristics. How did they know what he was saying in the Garden? Because he was not alone. Peter, James, and John were praying with him, and two of them would have a fundamental role in writing the Gospels of Mark and John. My man, these are the basics. Jesus often went to pray alone and we have no information about what he was praying.
@@jackricky5453 you don’t think I know the basics? I was a serious xtian for over 25 wasted years. You write as if your religion is true, remember it’s a faith not based on evidence.
A significant number of the early church fathers and orthodox leaders today believe that God never gives up on anyone, ever. The language in the Bible about people bowing unwillingly to Jesus was mistranslated. It should read that all people eventually bow to Jesus unhesitatingly, with abandon, love and gratitude. To know God is to love Him. We all have to die, of course, but God did not have to die. He died freely and willingly to satisfy justice, which is an inseparable component of love. In my mind, a sinless, perfect Being taking on all the sin of the world, suffering alienation or the loss of all love, even momentarily, suffering shame, enormous physical pain, and humiliation, etc. is a monumental sacrifice. Physically dying for someone is the ultimate sacrifice, even if one believes he will be in the hands of the Father at the point of death. No offense intended. Faith is a huge part of our experience with God, no doubt, but evidence abounds, too. Wishing you well, Danny, nothing more.
Did Jesus come to pay the penalty for sin? Is the penalty for sin eternal death? If so, Jesus failed.
Christians depict it as if Jesus payed what we owe for our sins, but then he doesn’t.
Its like I owe $100k but Jesus says “I’ll pay for it, don’t worry”, but then he pays with a peanut that he found on the ground.
When asked why he gets away with just a peanut, the response given is usually: Well, he didn’t owe anything, so him paying anything at all is worth much more. Also, he is God, so the act of him bending over to pick anything from the ground is worth much more than $100k.
@@AngelRamirez-zv6qp Please explain why you equate God's death with a peanut? He is the Creator and rule maker. He determined that taking the entire sin of the world(past, present and future) upon Himself and dying was sufficient. His grace is sufficient. He rose so we can rise, too. Is there any act on this earth greater than dying for another person? I can't imagine Him bearing my transgressions(all the hurt and pain that I have caused others), much less the transgressions of all.
Please explain why He failed?
@@SamOgilvieJr He was dead for 3 days. Does that equal Hell for eternity? Simply do the math.
Imagine a judge sentences a criminal to 30 years in prison. However, the judge then offers up his only begotten son to serve the sentence of the criminal. However, after placing his son in prison, he releases his son after only three hours behind bars. Has the sentence been served?
@@AngelRamirez-zv6qp He was dead for 3 days. Does that equal Hell for eternity? Simply do the math. Imagine a judge sentences a criminal to 30 years in prison. However, the judge then offers up his only begotten son to serve the sentence of the criminal. However, after placing his son in prison, he releases his son after only three hours behind bars. Has the sentence been served?
It would be worse if it were a sacrifice: the hideous practice of spilling blood to appease a deity is an age-old superstition which we should abhor. Read through the OT instructions for killing sentient, conscious beings, the smearing of blood, the stench of burning flesh, imagine the cries of dying animals, their suffering whilst waiting their turn, their terror as they were dragged forward, their pain as the knife ripped their flesh. Throughout the OT, voices are raised against this horror: prophets spoke for god rejecting it, but the ritual, priestly, economic model pressed on....the language of sacrifice should not be associated with any spiritual practices - unless in the harmless modern sense in which the questioner here posits - "giving up sweets for Lent", as we used to do. Dr. Wright's sniggering is misplaced as he appears to endorse the "only-blood-and-death can satisfy a raging god" sense.
Blood sacrifices don't appease God as wright would tel you. Semitic cultures contra Greco-Roman cultures didn't view it that way. They saw it as a magic purifying agent. Blood is literally described as life, that removes traces of death. That is weird ik. The animal was not punished, it was butchered, and blood was just procured.
Wait, typically killing was a swift cut at the neck. There was no torture involved. It was very similar to how meats were barbecued. Also burnt flesh and fat were known to give a very good aroma. And, sometimes you could feast on it! The bad stinky parts were burned outside the precincts (cuz eww).
It was not smearing, if you did it with a finger, was it?
I mean if you were vegan, I could see why you wouldn't like that.
I was a believer for over 50 years but, because of my honesty and relentless pursuit of the truth I am no longer a believer. However, you could call me a cultural Christian.
I appreciate Jesus but let's face reality folks.
A bloody human sacrifice to a God is as barbaric and pagan as it gets. But I forgive them, I mean, we are taking about the 1st century here.
Why would Jesus (god) make a torture sacrifice of himself to himself so he could forgive us for doing things he knew from the beginning we would do?
My understanding is that love is only real or true if it is given freely and not coerced. God wants us to experience the love He has known and knows in the Godhead, with Him and our fellow man, here and now. Justice and love are inseparable, of course. One cannot exist without the other. God can't overlook justice. So, he satisfied justice with His own death on the cross. Like many of the early Church fathers, I have come to believe that to know God is to love Him and that everyone, eventually, will bow to Him freely and with great love and gratitude.
@@SamOgilvieJr " God wants us to experience the love He has known and knows in the Godhead..." _________ No, he doesn't. If he did, he'd endow us with that love.
@@apotropoxyz6685, would we not then be robots? Choice is a necessity with real love. Naturally, choice creates its own set of problems
@@SamOgilvieJr ... No gods exist.
Why does God need a blood sacrifice in the first place? If Jesus is God, it wasn't really that much of problem to be crucified. Neither of these questions were addressed properly - just condescendingly dismissed.
No , it wasn’t. Have a bad weekend, ( dead 💀 for 3 days isn’t much of a sacrifice)
More of NT wrongs verbal diarrhoea
Yes , it was
Amen!
Excuse me? Wright thinks the definition of "sacrifice" as "giving up something up that you won't get back" is a modern idea? So all those lambs the Jews were slaughtering... those weren't sacrifices? Isn't that kind of the whole point of Jesus being the Lamb of God?
He just sniggered and then said nothing.
In other words, sacrifice means scapegoating your own son and using his blood as an offering to yourself so you can either forgive or send people to Hell. Holy cow, can't you just forgive people without the blood magic rituals?
Think of it like this:
The life of the flesh is in the blood
When we sin, we become worthless
By taking the blood of an innocent animal (or Jesus) we are essentially worth the blood of that animal (as long as one has a pure heart).
@@JosiahFickinger Why did you delete your other comment after I responded to you?
Gibberish.
Still nonsense, this priest does not explain anything