Ascension Cosmology | When Truth Meets Power
Вставка
- Опубліковано 23 кві 2024
- Where did Jesus go when he "ascended to heaven"? And why does our understanding of this event matter for how we understand our mission? In this clip from the course, When Truth Meets Power, Prof. Wright explains some of the confusion around Jesus's ascension, and a better way forward.
When Truth Meets Power is available now. www.admirato.org/courses/when...
"Heaven and earth are the twin halves of God's creation. They are designed to interlock and overlap. They are made for one another.. They are designed to eventually come together as one." With Jesus as the focus of how the two realms unite, "Heaven and earth it seems are already secretly intertwined."
Wright has spelled out a conclusion I came to a while back. I'm SO glad to hear this from someone else. Thank you!
To take this one step further: In the Gospels, Jesus posed that people have been blinded to the truth. This is in contrast to the usual interpretation that scolds disobedience for having "done bad." The revelation ("their eyes were opened") that resulted from the disobedience is clearly stated in Genesis 3:7. The disobedience wasn't some kind of moral "fall." it was a "blinding."
So should we call it “The Blinding” rather than The Fall?
@@chaddonal4331 Indeed. That would make for a more instructive discussion-just as Jesus framed it.
Taking moral judgment upon themselves (the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil), Adam and his wife "lost their way" (John 14:6 ). Their eyes were obstructed (Matthew 7:3-5). And at best they could only be as the blind leading the blind (Matthew 15:14).
@@tedclemens4093
presupp0sing adam and eve existed,
there`s n0 evidence they did
erg0, the "faII" / "bIinding" {whatever it is y0u`re caIIing it t0day}
is entireIy m00t
but y0u beIieve g0d is justified in c0ndemning their 0ffspring in perpetuity
f0r a crime he created them t0 c0mmit ? and this is just and "I0ving g0d" ??!!!
I`m n0t resp0nsibIe f0r a crime fictiti0us characters were aIIeged t0 have c0mmitted
the st0ry is inc0nsistent and inc0herent,
aIm0st as if it were written by primitive uneducated tribesmen
“Put Jesus at the center and rework everything around him.” Hallelujah!!!🙌🏼🙌🏼
seems he`s
" putting himseIf at the center and rew0rking everything ar0und himseIf "
My mother passed away three years ago. Her atheist son in-law held her hand as she passed. He felt her spirit leave and trailed her fingers up his arm. He has no explanation for what he felt, but it was real . She delighted in finding shiny new pennies on the ground. She felt they were messages from her savior because the insignia on a penny says in" God We Trust." I am sorry to say, I found her penny thing silly. For the entire year after she passed, both my sister and I would look down to find shiny new pennies in the weirdest places, unexpected places, especially when in our grieving over her death. I concluded that " Heaven" was right there, within reach, not far away at all. It felt as if we could simply part a veil and be there. After one year, the pennies stopped, as suddenly as they appeared. The message, Trust in God. We are a Christian family, and my mother's faith a bulwark in our lives. You just said what I already suspected. Lovely.
Thank you for sharing this warming story about your mother. It's a reminder that these experiences are more common than some may realize. Your openness encourages our community and we appreciate your reflections. --NTW Online Team
@@NTWrightOnline
aaw s0 the ac0Iytes d0nt even get t0 the messiah ?
the nt 0nIine team intercepts 0n behaIf 0f the pr0phet
d0ubIe edged that is,
whiIe his 0ut 0f reach nature I00ks Iike he`s far t00 busy and imp0rtant t0 interact with his "f0II0wers" it aIs0 I00ks t0 the m0re discerning as "ph0ning it in"
Thank you for sharing your knowledge, it is very inspiring!
Thank you, Dr Wright! I was literally just thinking about this the other day when thinking about the ontology of angels and humans.
As we all from 0 we come to 0 we go, so is the fate of all historic figures, and Jesus is included in the realms of motion of Electro Magnetism. the Time ~ Timing Relativity ~ 010.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! These are matters worthy of deep reflection. Just to note, Dr. Wright doesn't personally monitor this channel, but we're always encouraged to hear how these videos are engaging others to think. I hope you will continue your search on our channel and share your reflections with us! --NTW Online Team
This is incredible 🙏 thank you.
Thank you for your feedback! We're grateful for our supporters. --NTW Online Team
YES. THANK YOU. Put Jesus at the Center, and everything else fits perfectly around Him.... That of course is a much greater endeavor than our academic, intellectual, albeit fascinating, noble, endeavors, requiring the faith in and empowerment by the very Spirit of the living Christ we seek to understand.❤❤❤
Always enlightening... Thank you Sir😊
As refreshing and inspirational as ever! Thank God for N T Wright!
Thank you for your kind words and support! We're grateful to have you as part of our community. --NTW Online Team
3:40 “Put Jesus at the center and then rethink everything around him”
3. The ascended and enthroned Christ cares for his suffering people as they bear witness to him.
We see this in Acts 7 when Stephen becomes the first martyr of the Christian church.
But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)
All of this should give us great encouragement! When feeling weak in ourselves, Luke reminds us that the exalted Christ has given us his Spirit, who equips us with the power, boldness, and courage we need to accomplish our mission.
This is the great hope of all Christians. For just as Jesus went into heaven, so will all Christians. Those who are dead will rise first; those who are living will be caught up to meet Him in the air, according to Paul, writing to the church at Thessalonica. With this hope in mind, Christians sometimes conclude their meetings with the words, "Come Lord Jesus."
Interesting! I’ve never heard this before. Ive always assumed when I die, I will go up to heaven where He has created a place for me. And then in the new heaven and earth, I might visit earth but live up there with God.
You assumed correctly, as based on Scripture.
Thank you for sharing your perspective! It's refreshing to explore topics like this in their original contexts. If you're interested in exploring more into this topic, you are welcome to check out this playlist which offers more insights and perspectives on these matters: ua-cam.com/play/PLXeyTV5HCr-AQSN7hrF0n76ZaiESIl2wS.html Feel free to explore and let us know your thoughts! --NTW Online Team
WOW Good Question..
Thank you!!!!
It helps me to think of it as a higher dimension (a 4th dimension, if you will). One that we cannot see because we were banished from it since the fall of man. To be trapped in 3 dimensions is to be blinded to the reality of the 4th dimension. Much like a shadow on a wall is trapped in 2 dimensions, and can only express width and height, but no depth. We can only see the 4th dimension if we use faith to see it, but even when we do, it is a very blurry image.
Yes, two spheres intertwined, physical and spherical. Yet, there are places in the physical sphere where the connection is stronger, where the curtain is very thin. I think these are the places when the Bible talks about Jesus being taken up (Act 1;9), or descending into the lower parts of the earth (Eph 4:9, Mat 12:40). There are places where it is very easy to come into the presence of God, and places where it is next to impossible.
And this what rapture theology is silly. No one is going to leave Earth and its atmosphere and travel through space to some faraway heaven. Heaven is something other than space and time as we know it.
Apply physics and Heaven is quite possibly another dimension, existing alongside us as an unseen realm. Three of the most knowledgable authorities on UFOs have all come to the conclusion that they are not physical objects, but portals into another dimension beyond time and space while the aliens are not extraterrestrials, but the same entities that were known as demons during Medieval times.
Now, your logic is flawed in your assessment of the rapture. Whatever the nature of Heaven, whether physical, spiritual or otherwise, none of those negates the possibility of Jesus returning to gather his saints to him. Even today, the Christian churches teach that our souls or spirits go to Heaven or Paradise to await the resurrection when they will be reunited with our Spirit-empowered physical bodies.
I always appreciate Fr. Dr. Wright's take on the ascension from a theological point of view. He challenges us to get rid of our implicit cosmology and understand the meaning of the ascension. However, I have not heard him state plainly where he thinks Jesus' body is now. If we are really to believe in a physical resurrection of Jesus, then his body must be somewhere - but where? And if he didn't fly off into the sky as Acts suggests, then where did he go? Did he go "behind the curtain" into God's space, implying that there is a "portal" between the two worlds that only resurrected bodies can traverse? I would appreciate a response from my beloved Fr. Dr. Wright: Plainly, where did Jesus' body go?
Fr. Dr. Wright convinced me of the physical resurrection of Christ (as opposed to a spiritual one). But if that's the case, then he should state more plainly the answer to this question. After all, if we don't have a solid answer for where the body of Jesus is now, then it appears that the ascension as recorded in Acts is merely a teaching story crafted to give an answer for questions on the ceasing of Jesus' post-mortem appearances, and the early church's experience of the paraclete. I have no problem accepting the story as such, but I feel there are gaps in Fr. Dr. Wright's teaching on this, especially given how the earlier books of the New Testament lack the vivid, dramatic details as recorded in Acts. Thanks.
To the team that monitors this account - I'm aware of your comments stating that Fr. Dr. Wright does not monitor this channel. Of course, I do not expect that he would. But I am hoping someone on your team can reach out to him for a response. Thank you.
@@aleksandarmiljkovic7216 Interesting. Can you share any more on this?
Thank you for your comment! We're glad you have been inspired by these reflections. If you're interested in diving deeper into the topic and exploring N.T. Wright's views further, we recommend checking out our UA-cam series, "Thinking Through Salvation." ua-cam.com/play/PLXeyTV5HCr-AQSN7hrF0n76ZaiESIl2wS.html We believe you'll find that many of the gaps you mentioned are filled in and that the series offers an insightful exploration of the subject. We'd love to hear what you think after further study into N.T. Wright's perspective. Feel free to share your thoughts as you've had a chance to watch the series! --NTW Online Team
The ideas about Heaven have changed dramatically.
We can tell from the Bible that it is visible and "up there".
Now we think it is invisible and everywhere !
Mr. Wright!
I have a question? If God eradicated Adam & Eve’s descendants up to Noah who He found favor in. Why did we still have to toil in life & carry on original sin?
Thank you & God Bless you! ♥️
Thank you for your question! It's a thought-provoking one indeed. While Professor Wright does not personally monitor this channel, we have explored various perspectives on this topic. You might find our series on "Thinking Through Salvation" helpful. Here's the link: ua-cam.com/play/PLXeyTV5HCr-AQSN7hrF0n76ZaiESIl2wS.html. I believe you might find the hopeful purpose of this life, which we continue to carry on, surprising. --NTW Online Team
🔔❤️🔔
It seems to me that you're pushing the bounds here of some very straightforward language in scripture about the above and below.
I would be interested in what principles you use to slide between a grammatical-historical hermeneutic and this analogucal-mystical one.
It would almost seem deceptive of Jesus for him to speak so directly of having come down from the Father and going back to the Father.
“He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
- John 3:31
And...
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
- John 3:13
Or as he spoke to Mary jn what she certainly would have understood as an ascension above...
"Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
- John 20:17
The Book of Revelation has this same sense, very much so, of a literal sanctuary above in a place called heaven from which the New Jerusalem will descend to Earth.
It was from this place that Satan was cast down to earth.
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
- Revelation 12:7-9
What are we to make of Revelation 4 and 5, the throne room scene? It speaks of a place where millions of angels abide, ascending and descending as ministering spirits to those below.
Isn't this also supported by Daniel?
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
“A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
- Daniel 7:9-10
“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
- Daniel 7:13-14
The second coming of Christ is linked closely with the ascension of Christ, In which he ascended in a literal cloud of angels upward.
"And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
- Acts 1:9-11
He is returning in a cloud of angels, not something that is spiritualized, but a spiritual event that takes place in a material time and space. Every eye will see him, as the lightning from the east to the west, as he descends from above.
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
- Matthew 24:30
Christ enthronement at the right hand of the Father is spoken of as a literal temple In a place of time and space, called heaven. It is this temple that served as the pattern for the tabernacle on Earth.
Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
- Hebrews 9:23-24
And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
- Revelation 11:19
I think I would add these verses as well... Regarding the above and below. I believe this is very consistent with a biblical cosmology that sees spiritual beings living in material worlds, the dwelling of God with his people being in a physical place, the new creation.
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
- Revelation 21:1-2
@@janmckenzie The "creation" of Gen. 1 is NOT the physical or material creation, it is the creation of the covenant people and the covenant system. This is how ancient creation accounts always works: they tell the story of the creation of the kingdom the king's dynasty, and the social and political system. Any physical or material reading of any creation account, biblical or otherwise, is simply barking up the wrong tree.
The creation of Gen. 1 is of "the heavens and the earth." This is the social and political and covenant system of "man" on the land, that is, the covenant man on the covenant land. The "heavens and earth" of Gen. 1 creates a place for the covenant people to live, it provides light (revelation, guidance, governance), into the darkness, it provides a ritual calendar system of "day" and "night" and "signs" "appointed times" "seasons" and so on. These appointed times and system are governed by the greater light (the High Priest) and the lesser light (the other functionaries of the ritual and ceremonial system of worship and government of the covenant). The covenant "man" is given the power to rule over the animals, in the same way that Nebuchadnezzar was given the beasts of the field to serve him (Jer. 27-28).
This covenant creation was broken down by the flood, and by the exile, when the land again was formless and void, and there was no man on the land, and no bird in the air and the fruitful land became barren (Jer. 4:23-26). This covenant creation was finally destroyed at the destruction and passing away of heaven and earth, at the fulfillment of the law and the prophets (Mat. 5:17-18), when the new covenant creation replaces the old covenant creation at the fall of the Second Temple (Mat. 24). At that time heaven and earth pass away, and the sun and moon stop giving their light, and the stars fall from heaven to earth. This is the dissolution of the Old Covenant system, the old creation of Gen 1. to be replaced by the word of the Lord which will never pass away, the new creation, the new heavens and the new earth, when there is no more day and night, no more seasons, no more sea (Rev. 21-22). The fruit of the tree of life goes out to the nations 12 months a year, there are no more seasons, no more summer and winter, springtime and harvest (cf. Gen. 1, 8:22).
The "up" and "down" language is political. As Wright says, heaven is the seat of the CEO of the system, the CEO of the kingdom, the king's throne. It is in this covenant and political system of the Kingdom of God that we are raised from death to life, and raised from the land up to heaven, to be seated in heavenly places (Eph 2). In Christ we are raised in his body, the body of Christ, his congregation or population, to be the covenant man on the land. We are in Christ the immortal body, the ruling assembly, together with the saints of all ages (Heb. 12:22-24). This new creation is the new covenant, better than the old covenant under which Abel died. That old covenant, that old creation, that old kingdom, that old system, predated the calling of the covenant man out of Egypt and into the land of Canaan. It was an ancient system of clean and unclean animals and sacrifices and appointed times and seedtime and harvest and Sabbath we see in Gen. 1-9. That system was broken down and rebuilt many times, under Adam, Seth, Noah and Abraham and Jacob long before Moses entered into the picture. And it was broken down and rebuilt under Joshua and Samuel and David and in the exiles and in the restoration to the land. But, at the end of the age of Moses and the Law, at the time of the New Covenant, that old system was to be "totally shattered" (Dan. 12:7) when that old Israel would be put to death by YHWH (Is. 65) when the new creation came, the new Jerusalem, when the old Jerusalem and her temple would be destroyed, and the blood of Abel avenged. At that time, the covenant land would conceal the blood no longer, it would be revealed and exposed, when YHWH would come out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the land for shedding it (Is. 26:21). At that time, YHWH would slay his wayward people as Leviathan, the dragon, the ancient serpent of the sea (Is. 27:1). At that time Jacob's guilt would be atoned for, at the destruction of the temple altar when its stones would be crushed to powder (Is. 27:7-9), when Jerusalem, the fortified city would be judged and desolated (Is. 27:10), when YHWH would have no compassion on his people who were his old creation (Is. 27:11). But at and through this judgement and destruction, for shedding blood on the covenant land, YHWH would plant Israel again as a new creation, a new vineyard, that would fill the whole world with fruit (Is. 27:2-6; Col. 1:6). At that time would be blasted the great trumpet, to regather Israel into a new body, the resurrection body (Is. 27:12-14; Mat. 24:31; 1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thes. 4:16; Rev. 10:7; 11:15). This is the harvest of Israel, when the wheat would be gathered into the barn and the chaff and the weeds burned up (Mat. 3:7-12; 13:36-43) and when the land would be harvested and judged (Rev. 14).
The coming of the Lord from heaven with a cloud and with his mighty angels is using this same kind of language and creation framework. The "cloud" refers to invisibility, as the Lord was hidden by the cloud. He went out of sight. In the same way he returns, out of sight. He is made manifest not by himself, but by his agents, his "mighty angels." These mighty angels of Mat. 13:39,41;16:27; 24:31; 25:31 are the legions (Mat. 26:53). These legions are the agents of wrath, bearing the sword not in vain, to repay the rebels (Rom. 13:2-4), to fulfill the Song of Moses (Rom. 12:19), avenging upon the rebels the blood of YHWH's servants at the end of Israel's time (Deut. 32). This would be when that "heavens" and "earth" to whom the Song was given (Deut. 31:28; 32:1) when they would be destroyed at Israel's "latter end" (Deut. 32:20,29). The Lord would come as the sun, rising in the east and shining to the west (Mat. 24:27 cf. John 8:12; Rev. 21:23; 22:5). His manifestation would not be secret, it would be public, revealed by judgement and destruction upon the people, when the "vultures" (Roman armies) would circle and pick apart the corpse of Israel (Luke 17:20-37). The Lord's presence is revealed by means of the destruction of the rebel sitting in the temple (2 Thes. 2). This would be a highly public and visible expression of his power, he would do the work of judgement that the Father had entrusted into his hands (John 5:22-29)
@@hillaryfamily You can only arrive at this interpretation through a biblical hermeneutic that is foreign to the New Testament understanding of the Old. I see nothing in the Old Testament prophets, in the teachings of Jesus, or of the apostles, that speaks of creation in the mythological terms that you suggest. I see nothing in the way Israel received this word of the creation covenant that suggests anything other than a historical report of the mighty acts of God.
What your suggesting here is the very old error of reading into the text a presupposed philosophical position rather than drawing from the text with the grammatical-historic hermeneutic. This is not biblical exegesis or exposition that would be arrived at by anyone reading the text In the natural sense of the author's intention.
Imagine a world where this hermeneutic, these principles of interpreting a text written in the common vernacular of the people, were applied. When words can mean anything they mean nothing because they lose definition. They dissolve into meaninglessness, like a mist driven by the wind. Practical communication would be impossible. You're offering a language game in which the rules undermine any consensus in meaning among those who would use them.
None of the Bible authors, inspired by the Holy Spirit, offer such principles of allegory that would undermine the plane sense of words.
Understanding the purpose and use of language in this way silences the voice of God to us.
Jan, what do we make of the following texts?
Ephesians 1:8-10 (ESV): 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Ephesians 2:5-6 (ESV): 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
A united heaven and earth?
Are Christians in heaven already?
@@janmckenzie No, you need to read the bible, both old and new testaments, according to how it uses the language of up and down, heaven and earth, kingdom, power, authority, eternal life and so on. This is not "foreign" it is local and original.
The text and the authors and readers used heaps of poetic, symbolic and figurative language. We do today, of course, but we just gloss over them as figures of speech or whatever because we are familiar with them and we know what is meant by raining cats and dogs or whatever. We don't even notice it when we use symbolic language today, although foreigners to us could quite easily be confused as to what was symbolic and what was literal and what was exaggeration. For example, "I'm going to beat you to a pulp" is something we wouldn't think twice about what was meant, but others could be confused or get the wrong idea. When the Lord said that we could pray and ask for "this mountain" to be uprooted and thrown into the sea, they knew both what "this mountain" meant (i.e. this kingdom he was under at that time) and what throwing something into the sea meant. We are ignorant fools if we aren't careful to get back to that original meaning.
Why not start with the fact that "creation" (and decreation) language is generally political and social. "Behold I create a new heavens and a new earth" = "I create Jerusalem" in Is. 65, for example. Which means"a land be born in a day" and "a nation be brought forth in one moment" (Is. 66). Manifestly, this is not a new physical creation, it is the creation of a new people, a new city, a new nation, under a new covenant. This new kingdom is one where people are being born and dying, and when they are sinning and getting married and building houses and planting vineyards. This text uses animal language, for example, animal vegetarianism. We can't just assume what these things mean, we have to get back to the original way of speaking and writing and hearing this stuff. It is rather obvious that the animals are not talking about natural, physical animals, and that the new creation is not a new physical world. There is no point in attacking me for reading the text by looking for the original author's intent and what the readers would have understood it to be talking about, which is their nation, their kingdom, their system of power and life and being, and not the physical or material world.
The Lord used the same language of labour pains, child birth, and the passing away of heaven and earth to describe the same thing, except he explained its application: the downfall of the Jerusalem and the Israel of his day, the power that opposed him and killed him. That was the Satan, the Adversary, the accuser, the devil, and its "angels" (agents, functionaries) who were persecuting him and his followers. Sure, they were bound for a while, but there would come a time when they would be released and overtaken by "demons" and would be eaten by locusts and would persecute his followers severely for a "little while" before it would fall. The Lord taught that this would happen in his generation, before some standing there hearing his pronouncements had tasted death. He said that in this would the stars fall from heaven, the sun be darkened and the moon not give its light. He said that in this he would come again in power and judgement against his enemies, and bring them low. At the fall of the Second Temple. That is how the Lord used this language and how and when he applied it to his coming in judgement to de-create that order and to create and perfect his new heaven and new earth, in which he is enthroned and has all authority. This is the original use and meaning of the terms, and the Christian interpretation and application taught by Christ and his Apostles as they filled the whole world with good fruit as Israel's new creation.
Actually - it could definitely be within our space time universe. You’re discounting time when you look for it presently OR (through a telescope) which is into the past, not the future… just a thought.
Apparently, the clouds are the dust of God's feet (Nahum 1:3)
God sits on a throne and the earth rests on pillars (1st Samuel 2:8)
There are windows in Heaven to allow rain to fall (Genesis 7:11)
I understand the point being made, but if I may counter: "positional" cosmology is one that the Holy Spirit inspired the biblical writers to use. From Genesis, where God separates the firmament above from the firmament below, to His wrath being poured out upon Sodom where "the LORD rained down brimstone...from the Lord out of the heavens." In the life of Christ, from Bethlehem's star to the Holy Spirit descending in the form of a dove out of Heaven, to our Lord's ascension where He was taken up and a cloud received him, and while the disciples looked up toward Heaven, they were reminded that Christ would return in similar manner.
So if there is a concession to position in Christological cosmology, it is not without some warrant from the very scriptures themselves. It may well be that it is a concession based on our vantage, like the sun rising and setting when it truly does no such thing except from our terrestrial point of view. So too, the notion of Heaven being above is one of linguistic simplification rather than metaphysical reality.
The sulphur balls readily available for examination today remain a puzzle to those who call them selves scientists. ua-cam.com/video/QjPcSQUY2W0/v-deo.html
Well argued.
@@brotherpaul963 If anyone bills themselves as an "expert on metaphysical reality", I immediately conjure a mental image of a guy in a man-bun with a "ghost detector" in his back pocket. So no, I'm not.
Some ancient people may have had "flat earth" beliefs, if they took any time at all to think about such things. Most of their attention was focused on things like tending their flocks, fending off predators, making sure they had stores of grain for the off-season, that sort of thing. Pondering the greater scope of creator was probably not a high priority until those pesky topics had been addressed. Nevertheless, ancient people from about the time of Pythagoras had more than a sneaking suspicion they were on a globe. Your homework assignment is to find out why.
Am I a linguist? If you mean am I a professional who derives income and prestige from my knowledge of one or more languages, then no. If you mean do I have years of academic training in certain languages, learned more after earning a degree as a matter of continual learning and enrichment, and take some pleasure in it purely from a love of languages, then yeah, sure.
I find it stretches the limits of credulity to think our Lord ascended a few mere inches, while having his followers continuing to look up. What altitude he reached is quite immaterial. I'd say with some confidence more than a Michael Jordan jumper and less than the International Space Station. That leaves plenty of latitude, feel free to believe what you will between those proposed ranges.
If a miracle could be explained, would it still be a miracle? It's definition is rather implicit about that, don't you think?
The Heavens are somewhere apart from the Earth, What particular space/time they occupy is up for debate.
Describing how vision works down to the neurological level would take FAAAR more time to explain here. I'm not a neurologist either, just to anticipate your question. But I've been a lifelong photographer and astronomer, both of which are visually-based. So I know a bit, sure.
Do I know what I'm doing? Depends on if you catch me before my morning coffee.
I have to say, this does make me wonder, is Christ's body still in the Earth? is it everywhere present but we can't see him?
Yes. It is called the Church.
@@chrisbogosh Bodily, not spiritually. Christ's body is part of the hypostatic union. I am open to the idea of his “spirit like body” being omnipresent, but I think it is safer to assume Paul was referring to most the quality of most spirits, which are not omnipresent.
N.T. Wright does not personally monitor this channel, but our team is grateful for your question! In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul likens the church to a body, with Christ as the head. While Jesus's physical body isn't still in the earth, he is present by his Spirit and through his followers-the church-working together. One day, however, we will see him in his bodily form. And when that happens, we will forever be changed: ua-cam.com/video/l5KsI8dNk-o/v-deo.html Thank you for engaging with us! --NTW Online Team
@@matthew_scarbrough Here is some food for thought. In Acts 9:5, Jesus rebukes Paul and says he was physically persecuting his body: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" Paul was not attacking Jesus directly, but he was persecuting his followers like Stephen, who was stoned to death (see Acts 7). Heaven and earth are with us here and now, and the followers of Jesus are presently the connecting point between the two. N.T. Wright's Deep Dive into Romans (exposition of Romans 8) is an excellent book that answers your question; I highly recommend it.
His body is on earth but unseen since we can not see the eternal until we are made immortal. We will see him as he is, for we will be as he is. 1 john 3
Luke favoured the idea that Jesus was taken up.
He was last seen disappearing into a cloud (Acts 1:9)
He stands on the right hand of God (Acts 7:56)
You can see Jesus standing on the right hand of God.
But only if you are filled with the Holy Ghost.
(Acts 7:55)
Apparently there are windows in Heaven (Genesis 7:11, 8:2)
Sometimes God throws stones down from Heaven (Joshua 10:11)
God has been seen in Heaven riding on a Cherub (2nd Samuel 22:11)
Yep the only why we will ever be in heaven is to be under its rule on earth. There is much to say about that. Earth is for humams and heaven makes earth heavenly.
Revelation 20:11-15 (RSV): 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
In the near future the stars will fall from Heaven (Matthew 24:29)
and we will see Jesus coming in the clouds of Heaven (~24:30)
Better keep looking and be ready (Luke 17:35)
As we all from 0 we come to 0 we go, so is the fate of all historic figures, and Jesus is included in the realms of motion of Electro Magnetism. the Time ~ Timing Relativity ~ 010.
Interestingly according to Luke 20:34-37 which states that a person has several opportunities for rebirth but a time comes when that person *cannot die anymore* he must leave that last body as a celestial child then be judged by the Word of the Lord, then that person becomes a citizen of Paradise, after a thousand years they are resurrected and begin their Ascension in a pristine glorified body.
You have never seen Jesus nor have you seen Israel yet both are connected eschatologically.
That Jesus had gone through this process as Israel/Jacob is mooted in John 3:31
*He who comes from heaven*
_31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, yet no one accepts his testimony._
Isaiah 49:3 *You are Israel my servant in whom I shall be Glorified* in the absence of the New Testament the Old Testament was to Jesus *his mandate and ministry* he confirms that John the Baptist is Elijah redivivus and John the Baptist confirms a. Jesus is the Lamb of God and b. He is Israel when in John 1:28 he confirms to a crowd that someone is present at that meeting, someone of impeccable credentials *the latchet of his sandals I am unworthy to untie* this is Jacob / Israel.
When Jesus says *If you have seen me you have seen the Father* this seems outrageous to his disciples and to us today, but it can be explained as if not a Pantheism at least a restricted form of Panentheism in which terms like (in John) *becoming* being *one in* and *dwelling in* and by *Jesus Christ giving his Body and Blood* to the members who believe in him, as stated in the Priestly Prayer *John 17:11 **_And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, *that they may be one,_*_ even as we are one._
Geza Vermes compares this Panentheistic world in which *Father, Son and the believers of all the ages reside in one another*
Read more in *The changing faces of Jesus* by Geza Vermes page 47.
When Jesus died, he was dead; and he lay dead, until God raised him from the dead on the third day. When we die, we are dead; and we lie dead, until Jesus raises us at the last day.
1 peter may say otherwise…
in [fn]which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison,
The Apostle Paul would argue with you on the 2nd part of your statement
@@scottheath8302 And it *may* not! There are other interpretations of the text!
@@jeffcurtis5460 How so?
That's not quite right, friend. The Lord was convicted and condemned as an enemy of the state and put to death as a criminal (Mat. 27:1-50). His followers abandoned him and were scattered. And in his death, we are like him. We are identified with him, buried with him by baptism into his death (Rom. 6:4-11). His death was the death "to sin" (Rom. 6:10).
When the Lord died on the cross, his body was broken for us. His flesh was torn, the curtain through which he opened up the way (Heb. 10:19-20). When the Lord died, he tore down that old temple, as he promised he would "would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days" (Mat. 27:40). In that temple of his body, when he died, that body broken for us, the "curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom" (Mat. 27:51). When he died, he shook the land (Mat. 27:51), the old land that was to be shaken and removed along with that old temple, the old creation, the old kingdom, shaken and removed (Heb. 12:26-28). This shaking split open the rocks and released the dead. The bodies of the saints who slept in that land were raised to new life, as witnesses, who "after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many" (Mat. 27:52-53). Who were these saints who rose and who entered Jerusalem to testify and to appear to the people? It was the followers of the Lord, those who had been scattered were ra-gathered into one body, to proclaim his death, burial and resurrection and the good news of life in him. They are the dead who are raised up (Mat. 11:5; John 5:25).
We are like the Lord in his death, by baptism, and we are like the Lord in his resurrection, as we rise to new life and to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4-11). Martha was looking for the resurrection on the Last Day (John 11:24). Yet the Lord taught her about the resurrection life, saying "I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25). To live in the resurrection life is to be free from death, to "never die" (John 11:26). The Lord raised Lazarus from the dead physically, as a sign of his power over spiritual death, and his identity as the Lord of life. The promise of never dying is not a promise not to see physical death of the physical body of a man or a woman. We still die physically, and get married and have children and sin, even in the new creation (Is. 65:17-23).
The resurrection of the Last Day is when the dead rise to new life. But it is also the time when the wicked rise up in rebellion to be condemned (John 5:28-29). This Last Day would be the "hour that is coming" the same "hour that is coming" when the Jerusalem temple will no longer be the place of worship, because it would be destroyed (John 4:20-24). This is the hour when the dead will not only awake from the dust and come out of their tombs to new life (Ez. 37; Dan. 12:2-3), it is also the hour when the wicked and the enemies of the true people of God rise up to attack God's people (Dan. 12:2; Ez. 38-39). This is the hour when "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom will rise against kingdom" (Mat. 24:7). From within wayward Israel, the Fourth Beast, would arise a new power, a rebel government, that would overthrow the previous government power and persecute the saints for 42 months (Dan. 7). From within Israel would arise a prince who would not be anointed (i.e. not authorised, not legitimate) who would cut off the last anointed one of post-exillic restored Israel, that is, Second Temple Israel, and who would rule for the final seven before the Second Temple would be destroyed (Dan. 9:24-27). That prince would rise up in the rebellion and would take his seat of power in the temple, before himself being destroyed, when the Lord appeared in power to destroy him and his kingdom along with the temple itself (2 Thes. 2).
Long story short, the Last Day and the Last Hour were in the First Century when the Second Temple was destroyed (1 John 2:18). That was the eschatological "hour" of Dan. 12 when the power of the holy people was totally shattered and the second temple was destroyed and the resurrection of the just and the unjust was completed and the unjust were put to shame. That "hour" and "day" was the time when the Lord would come to destroy the Second Temple (Mat. 24). The "hour" of the resurrection was near in the First Century (Rom. 13:11-13), the "hour" of trial to come upon the world (Rev. 3:10), the "hour" when the city of Jerusalem was shaken (Rev. 11:13), the "hour" of the harvest of the land (Rev. 14), the "hour" of the judgement of "Babylon" for shedding the blood of the Old Testament prophets as well as the New Testament apostles (Rev. 18).
We rise as the Lord did, on his "third day" resurrection "according to the scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:4), which is the resurrection of God's people as a collective, according to the scriptures (Hos. 6:1-3). This is not the resurrection of the physical bodies of the saints, it is the resurrection of the dead into "one body" (Rom. 12; 1 Cor. 10,12; Eph 2,4; Col. 3:15). This is the singular resurrection body into which the plural dead ones come (1 Cor. 15:35 don't be fooled by mistranslations), "the redemption of our [plural] body [singular]" (Rom. 8:23, don't be fooled by mistranslations of the singular body as plural).
Honestly I'm still somewhat confused - where is Jesus now?
Thank you for your question. N.T. Wright does not personally monitor this channel, but our team is happy to reply. This quote from the video is helpful, "Ascension isn't about Jesus going away and leaving us to our own devices. It's about Jesus now at the father's right hand. In other words, holding the place of authority and power in the whole cosmos. In the Bible, heaven is the CEO's office. It's the place from which things are run." It's helpful to keep in mind the emphasis is not on a physical location, but a place of power. Heaven and earth are two realms, not two localities in physical terms. This video is also helpful: ua-cam.com/video/72NvP1b82yg/v-deo.html We hope you will share your thoughts! --NTW Online Team
@@NTWrightOnline I found this video confusing, too. So, NTW is saying the physical ascension was historically accurate, yet Jesus approached heaven by going to the sky, which was no closer than the ground?
Check my content. Jesus is a Jewish Buddha figure but instead of following his teachings, Christians worship the teacher. Everyone's Buddha nature emerges when they find emptiness. Everyone's Christ nature emerges when they follow the Jesus teachings. Christians by and large worship Jesus as an idol. They don't follow his teachings. It's why Christianityu is so big, so diverse and holds some of the planets biggest evil. They're just lost souls, carrying an Ark. I opened it. They don't know it opens.
This is because Church Fathers never tackled this part of Christology in the early Councils. They were busy defining two natures of Christ and all the implications coming out of it. Christology of Ascension is THE Christology of 3rd millennium. Professor Wright is extremely educated and articulated biblical scholar of the 2nd millennium - but there are the limits to that.
@@aleksandarmiljkovic7216 Can you shed any light on the topic?
Glory to God. Religion teaches us how to get to Heaven in the sky but Christ Jesus come teaching the Kingdom of God coming on earth as it already is in Heaven, as it was in Genesis before sin and rebellion.
Interestingly, he never answers the question about how Jesus ascended to "heaven." I like the idea of heaven and earth inextricably intertwined and part of a whole, but he leaves unexplained the foundation of the ascension cosmology, Jesus's ascension.
N. T. Wright never answers any difficult question. Sad, really. So much cleverness, wasted.
This is because Church Fathers never tackled this part of Christology in the early Councils. They were busy defining two natures of Christ and all the implications coming out of it. Christology of Ascension is THE Christology of 3rd millennium. Professor Wright is extremely educated and articulated biblical scholar of the 2nd millennium - but there are the limits to that.
You're welcome to learn from a true seeker of righteousness. It is my content. Jesus returns every time someone follows his path. Christians instead, worship him as if he is an idol. Want access, it isn't through the church's words but Jesus and he never said to just worship him.
Revelation 20:11-15 (RSV): 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
It’s too bad he left out Act 1:10-11. It seems clear it literally when up…physically ascending. The disciples were asked why they were gazing up into heaven. Presumably, where Jesus had just went?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! You raise an interesting point about the ascension described in Acts 1:10-11. Regarding the idea of someone "going up to heaven," it's important to consider that this language often carries symbolic and theological significance rather than describing a literal spatial movement. To speak of Jesus ascending to heaven doesn't necessarily imply a physical journey within the present space-time universe. We invite you to look through the series we made on the topic of salvation for helpful reflections. You can find the series on our channel at ua-cam.com/play/PLXeyTV5HCr-AQSN7hrF0n76ZaiESIl2wS.html. We'd love to hear what you think as you work through it! --NTW Online Team
@@NTWrightOnline i will definitely watch them. Many thanks for the link. My main question (or point) is about the angels asking the disciples why they were looking up. Are you implying that was “symbolic” as well? If so, how does someone even begin to decipher when a section’s literal or not.
Thanks for your question! Watching Jesus ascend into heaven invites consideration of its deeper meaning in scripture. In biblical imagery, "coming on the clouds of heaven" to the "Ancient of Days" signifies Jesus's vindication, glory, and the establishment of his kingdom as understood from Daniel 7:13-14. So, rather than the Ascension focusing on the spatial location of heaven, we find Jesus performing yet another sign of the kingdom of God. Jesus in the clouds is about fulfilling God's promises of ultimate victory over evil and the establishment of his kingdom according to scripture, namely Daniel 7. --NTW Online Team
This is so interesting. So was the resurrection literal? Is so, it would be helpful to know when a passage is literal or not when reading.
Thank you for your comment! Yes, the resurrection is indeed understood as literal in Christian theology. You raise an important point about recognizing different literary genres when reading the Bible-some scriptures are meant to be taken literally, while others may employ symbolic or metaphorical language. Just as we learn to interpret various genres in other forms of literature, we can also learn to develop skills in understanding biblical genres. If you want to learn more, N.T. Wright Online has many free learning resources to help. You can start here: www.admirato.org/bundles/free Thanks again for engaging with our content! --NTW Online Team
I wonder if Prof Wright has really thought this through.
He insists that Christians are wrong to include neoplatonist ideas of souls and spirit realms and should be more biblical and literal about physical form.
Let's leave aside the fact that he arbitrarily chooses to begin with the presupposition of everything biblical being real and then seeks to explain how that might be.
Let's leave aside the way that he is a biblical iteralists but only on those passages that he agress with. The rest he will explain away.
Let's leave aside the problem that, if he is correct, he still has not explained how a physical body could 'ascend' or otherwise travel to a physical heaven without corpses floating in the air.
Let's leave aside the question of where this physical heaven, as described in the bible, could be hiding and how it remains invisible. A different dimesnsion? Somewhere in the multiverse?
Instead, let's focus on the fact that it is illogical to begin with your conclusion and that there is not a single scrap of verifiable evidence for any of it.
Jesus physically ascended into heaven (Luke 24.51), therefore heaven is a place beyond the earth which can accommodate physical bodies as well as spirits. St Paul spoke of being absent from the body and present with the Lord, as well as being caught up into heaven, whether in the body or out of the body. He tells us to set our affection on things above where Christ is, and the author of Hebrews speaks of the Jerusalem above, the abode of the spirits of the just made perfect. The Lord Jesus himself during his earthly ministry lifted up his eyes to heaven in prayer, as did the martyr St Stephen. Heaven is up there, out there, beyond our earth, and is accessible now to physically resurrected persons and to disembodied spirits. To die and go there apart from the body is far better than to live in this present world, as St Paul tells us.
The cosmology of the Bible requires very careful interpretation.
You can't get to Heaven using a very long ladder.
(Genesis 28:12)
The sun and moon are in Heaven (Genesis 1:14)
Even the birds fly in Heaven (Ezekiel 38:20)
And we will meet Jesus in the air (1st Thessalonians 4:17)
The Gospels got their story backward. Jesus died and ascended to his God not in a physical body, he is not a bird. Jesus resurrected in the other side. Another proof that the Gospels are human thinking influenced by wrong ideas and designed to convince pagans.
No he rose and ascended in a physical body just as we will when we leave Paradise.
Tom, way "too much" Alexandrian allegorizing and philosophizing the Biblical narrative brother. I for one am laying up my treasures in Heaven as per Jesus's instruction. He doesn't want me to go there poor, even suggested to my Laodicean brethren to buy Gold from him (Rev;3:18) Lets see where could this place be? Hmm.
Heaven mentioned 46 times in NT alone, so let me just pick out 2+1, (Hebrews 9:24,ESV) For Christ has entered into HEAVEN ITSELF, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 2,(Ephesians 4:10 ) He who descended is the one who also ASCENDED "FAR ABOVE" ALL THE HEAVENS, that he might fill all things. And finally from Moses himself, (Deuteronomy 10;14) "Behold, unto the Lord your God belong HEAVEN and the "HEAVEN OF HEAVENS".....Apostle Paul was only caught up to the 3rd heavens, but seeing we will forever be with our Lord who will be seated at His Fathers right hand in the city of golden streets the "New Jerusalem" I can't wait, for this earth will pass away and be forgotten together with the memory of all the evil that happened there.
When Jesus 'ascended into heaven', he went to the Vestry House in Qumran. It was called 'Heaven' because the 3 High Priests (the Michael-Zadok, the Abiathar Gabriel & the Levi -Sariel), who were all called 'God', did their teaching & preaching there. The 'Cloud' that led him there was his brotherJames. James was the leader of the Pilgrims, a group in the Essene community & by way of OT imagery was called the 'Cloud'. A 'cloud' had led the Israelites to the Promised Land; God talked to Moses from a 'cloud', so any time there was priestly communication with God, the term 'Cloud' was retained in the Qumran community. The Vestry House faced south, so Jesus sat on the 'right hand side of God' (Jonathon Annas, the Sadducee High Priest). Because he was a king & kings were lower In rank than priests, he sat on the inferior west.
Wut lol
It is amazing how humans spend endless time and energy trying to explain the fairy tales in an ancient book in terms of the modern scientific knowledge we now have. Why not just throw the book out?
@@paulral So true!
respectfully, i think you may be stuck in 2007
What a word salad of nonsense
Jesus' body very likely went where all the bodies of everyone who was crucified go, to a trash pit. The Romans would have kept his body on display until it began to fall apart. Then they would have taken it down and tossed it away.
Be honest, no one has a clue. There is no solution to metaphysical dualism.
Don’t be stupid! Read Torrance. Read Paul in 1 Corinthians. There is no place for duality in philosophy. Christianity demolishes this through the incarnation, resurrection and ascension. Modern Physics confirms this at the singularity. Grow up!
There's nothing like referring to the book of prophets to declare the prophets are right. The whole spiritual /material mess arises because we try to use the same language for both. We simply cannot describe one in terms of the other. For that reason it's impossible to say anything at all meaningful about God. Hence, the dualism is unsolvable.
Down with ascension 👎