Ep 002 | Awakening: Our Wall of Mormon Faith Collapses | Faith Deconstruction Series
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- Опубліковано 22 лют 2024
- In this first episode of our faith deconstruction series, we discuss our journey through the dismantling of our once unwavering faith within the Mormon church. Brick by sacred brick, our convictions crumbled as we caught glimpses of the tough realities of the Church's truth claims. From Jamie's realization about the Book of Abraham to the undeniable connection between temple rituals and Freemasonry, each discovery chipped away at our foundation. The emergence of DNA evidence challenging the Book of Mormon, coupled with the church's involvement in Proposition 8, left us questioning the integrity of our religious institution. The "performative niceness" within the church community during campaigns against the LGBTQ community further etched away at our foundation. And then again with the church's 2015 policy denying baptism to children of LGBTQ+ parents and the abrupt condemnation of the term 'Mormon' as 'a victory for satan.' It was all so much. Each of these events primed us for what would soon come, Elisha's discovery of the CES Letter, where all of the issues are indexed in one place. Jamie's subsequent deep dive would eventually land us in the same place: the church was no longer "true." Join us as we recall how it all came down.
I didn't know you guys had a podcast. Sweet.
Today actually is my anniversary, three years ago, I unintentionally discovered mormon stories, and that very same day my shelf exploded. What happened to me previously was that I started getting intuned with myself, little cracks were happening that I didn't realize were happening, and when I came across MS I instantly knew it was all BS. it was sooooo painful, for weeks I cried myself to sleep and woke up crying, unable to believe it was all a lie. Ugh, my heart gets heavy remembering all of that pain.
I was diagnosed with PTSD. I experienced existential crisis, the dark night of the soul, suicidal ideation. My god it was horrible. But 3 years out. I am so happy and thankful me and my whole family were able to get out.
We lost family relationships and friendships we're still mourning. But hell, we now get to be around people we choose to love and be around as ourselves, authentically, happily and freely from the mind control. ❤
It is so crazy to me how many of us who have left understand that 'shelf' metaphor. I love the way you described it as exploding, that's how it felt for me too. One little question sparked a match and everything went up in flames.
I know right. Crazy. It truly felt like an explosion. So horrible.
I hope youre doing great. ❤@michellesass5070
I learned the true stories to the church 20 years after I left the church. Why I leave? The church was killing me. I was depressed and for the church it was my fault I maybe did something wrong, did n't have enought faith etc . I had to leave or die
Good for you. I’m sorry for your experience.
Happiness absolutely gets weaponized in the church. When the promise of happiness for keeping the commandments fails, that’s always the go to: you’re doing something wrong.
The flip side needs consideration: maybe it wasn’t a divine commandment to begin with. The scriptures are actually quite heavy on messages to the effect of “by their fruits ye shall know them” and “prove all things, hold fast that which is good,” but individual discernment has been troublesome to controlling a people, so that truth has been diminished.
Weak and confused people cycle in and out of the church all the time. Seems you were destined to cut and run. No testimony. No Loyalty. No integrity.
I vividly recall being told repeatedly, especially during general conference that Gods laws were eternal and unchanging. Yet somehow, the laws somehow kept, ever-so-quietly, changing.
I grew up LDS. But I was never 100% in… I tried to be. I wanted to be. I did all the things… prayer/reading/fasting/callings/ service/tithing/temple attendance… But I never had those spiritual experiences, I never felt all the “things” you’re supposed to feel…. And that made me feel “less than”… made me feel like something was wrong with me. When my bishop gave me horrible advice about staying in an abusive marriage… that’s when I said enough was enough. A loving God would not want me to stay in a relationship filled with emotional and financial abuse that was destroying me. Spent a long time deconstructing and rebuilding…. But I’m so much happier and feel so much better about my spirituality.
A testimony has to be nurtured and strengthened daily. If you are truly seeking to know and to do the Lord's will, and have offered your whole soul to God (Omni 26) then you will not be easily dissuaded by wicked men.
@@Fred-mp1vf To imply that I was somehow at fault for not having a testimony of a church after years of trying and doing all I was asked is wildly offensive (although not surprising). People like you and your narrow-minded assumptions are just one part of the reason my "shelf" broke.
@Fred-mp1vf testimony = brainwashing. There's a reason they want you going to church every week to reinforce and validate the beliefs.
@@Fred-mp1vf I have never met a man/woman who completely surrendered their will to God's will ? You will never attain or do the Lord's will because Jesus,according to the N.T., was the sacrificial lamb for the wages of sin,death. You are erasing the work of Christ on earth. BTW, I am agnostic.
Weak and confused people cycle in and out of the church all the time. Seems you were destined to cut and run. No testimony. No Loyalty. No integrity.
So proud of you! Being honest with yourself and dealing with the reality is admirable. I was never Mormon, and really don’t understand how anyone could ever be a believer of this crazy faith. I do admire some of the family values the church supports but that is not unique to the Mormons. I just am so happy for those of you who finally see through the false doctrine. I admire you for your strength to seek truth. We are all responsible to seek truth. I wish you love and happiness in your journey.
I was born and raised a mormon in a small town in Ontario Canada. I went on a mission to England I had a powerful witness of Jesus Christ by what I thought was the holy ghost . I married in the temple,served every priesthood calling .I was a bishop twice . 5 sons who all left the church as young men . I was 62 at the time and I read an ensign article may 1993 by Elder Nelson about the translation of the book of mormon . It was there I found out about the hat in the stone .That's when I started my awakening . After that I discovered many things and my faith in mormomism rapidly unraveled. I left the church 6 years ago . I discovered Mormon Stories and became enlightened that I wasn't alone which was very helpful . My delima is what was that spiritual experience I had about Christ .Have you or any of your followers had these experiences and could you share what may be helpful as I continue to awakened.
On you tube search spiritual witnesses. There are several good videos on that topic.
hat in the stone? hahaha you mean your cell phone?
Finally, your true disposition is revealed. Just a poser in the church...accepting important callings without a testimony or loyalty. You're not "enlightened", only showing your real self. You took the first convenient off-ramp and now come to these sites to denigrate your former faith. Shame on you. I agree with your decision to leave. Your weakness and confusion is better hidden outside of the church. Thanks for leaving so we didn't have to throw you out.
Hi I am also from Ontario, Canada. I have been out now for about 8 months. These type of videos are so helpful in unravelling from the church. I find it hard sometimes and still get anxiety. Hearing others share their stories let me know I am not alone. My husband is still believing, just released as a bishop. This also takes work, but I can tell you there is joy and peace in this journey out. 🤗
I'm still working out my thoughts on Jesus, too. I think the most basic idea is that Jesus was a real person who was very enlightened. He's still a good example. If you read more eastern thought, then go back to the New Testament, you see it and Jesus with different eyes. You can see that he has enlightenment teachings. He broke away from the corrupt church of his time. He taught the average person. He was very "zen." (can I say that? I'm not sure how else to describe it.) I don't want to say more because I just don't know yet. But I think it's worth figuring out!
The book of Abraham still says in my scriptures that it came from scrolls written in Abraham’s own hands . I don’t u derstand how more members do question this
thanks for the work you do. Deconstruction is key. I'm a former Mormon, out 18 years.
I like finding channels like this. I left the church before there was any support like this. It was lonely for a while, but now there's a large community
Weak and confused people cycle in and out of the church all the time. Seems you were destined to cut and run. No testimony. No Loyalty. No integrity.
One of my shelf breaking thoughts was “sure people/prophtes aren’t perfect but are told that if we do certain sinful things, even little things, that we lose our connection to the spirit… our worthiness is lost. The level of loss seems to be somewhat related to the degree of the sin. But Joseph Smith was being deceptive and committing sexual sins so he would’ve/should’ve lost his worthiness which is his connection to the spirit and definitely his connection to god. So why would Joseph get a special exemption from that. So I cannot give him a pass, which means the church isn’t ‘true’.”
There were other things that I had done mental acrobatics about or put in a box labeled “when I get to heaven this will all get worked out and I’ll finally understand”
The two things that broke were the proclamation on the family-LGBTQ stuff which I toed the line on temporarily while I tried to sort out my idea of right and how that could merge with the church’s stance. Then years later my marriage had a big fail and we had to completely tear that down and rebuild it, which meant I had to unpack things that bothered me about the patriarchy, which meant I had to pack unpack church things and things about myself that I’d tucked away.
I had already gotten myself brave enough to let people know that I was an advocate for lgbtqia people and their ability to have romantic relationships.
But the thing that said on social media that I needed members’ help with was the different versions of the first vision. That was my safe gateway into letting my mind open the other boxes and letting my friend & family in on some of those historical things. Those seemed way pre dangerous that having a disagreement about the current issues of that time.
Stop it. You never ever had a "shelf" to break. No testimony. No Loyalty. No integrity. Just a poser in the church. Divorced? Same cause.
Enjoyed your conversation and am happy to see your age demographic getting into the widening conversation about deconstructing Mormonism. As someone similar to your age, I relate in so many ways.
Might be my auditor background, but I like the “doubt your doubts” guidance. There are a lot of people who swing from blind faith to blind doubt, when it comes to accepting faithful/unfaithful assertions. True deconstruction is neither inherently faith promoting or destroying; it’s simply breaking down a belief system to its parts and identifying what is supported by fact and what is supported by belief. Whether one stays or leaves, authenticity is so very important, and you can strip out the crap and hold on to whatever resonates as good.
I loved this, but y’all are constantly talking over one another/interrupting.
Mine came down in an instant when i found out about the Book of Abraham….which i accidentally stumbled upon on a Mormon Stories podcast. Then in that same episode they mentioned the gospel topics essays so I went to those and the ground was just pulled out from under me. Like you said, Joseph Smith was no longer a prophet and everything was a lie.
In. One. Day.
This was February 2020. I found exmo TikTok (you were definitely a fav) & did the deep dive watching all of Mormon Stories podcasts. All day everyday. Even while at work I had it in my ear. Listening 2x speed. Reading a lot of the books that were mentioned. One jaw dropping thing after another. That was one rollercoaster of a year before I jumped off & slowed down.
For me, it was both brick by brick over many years plus a big moment at the end where I finally felt the freedom, permission, and relief that I no longer believed and more so was certain in my lack of belief.
Unbelief is NOT freedom. Subjecting yourself to the Adversary brings only captivity, hopelessness and sorrow. You've been deceived by his cunning and craftiness. One day you will realize that without God, there's only emptiness and misery.
@@Fred-mp1vf I'm confident I won't, but thanks for the concern. How long until the captivity, hopelessness, sorrow, emptiness, and misery hit? Unfortunately, I have less faith that you will someday see how you have been deceived, but I hope you have a great life whether you remain inside or escape the deception. ❤️
@@Fred-mp1vf🤮
"Performative niceness is right next to cruelty." Wow! What an astute observation. ❤️
As a convert I'm just a goodwork to them like a dumbell in a gym
For some people that may be true. But many teach and share with the best of intentions. They honesty believe that you need the ordinances to be saved. It's very convoluted...but many do teach and share because they care, but don't know any differently.@@davepeen8321
I was a convert for 8 years. I was honestly never able to fully believe. When I finally worked up the nerve to mention my misgivings to a few other "sisters", they all assured me that none of them did either. Apparently they stayed because it made their husbands so very happy. I stayed for a couple more years. I may still be an active member had they not told me that God wanted me to teach that nonsense to children. I simply could not bring myself to do that. I struggled for a while until a significant world event happened and I caught myself thinking, "I should probably wait until Sunday to find out how I should feel about this." I gave my head a good hard shake and never went back. There were a lot of other things that slowly pulled me away over the last few years but those were the final two straws.
Raising my kids also helped me leave the church. I honestly couldn’t tell them all of it was true and they should believe it and do the whole Mormon life commitment thing like I did.
Weak and confused people cycle in and out of the church all the time. Seems you were destined to cut and run. No testimony. No Loyalty. No integrity.
Thanks for leaving so we didn't't have to throw you out.
Great show. Thanks for bringing to the public.
Thank you, I appreciate your personal insights and views.
GREAT Epsiode, you guys!
My shelf cracking started back when ibwas putting in my missionsry paperwork... some serious body shaming back in '93...
Fsst forward to early 2022 and my journey jumpstarted with a question from my oldest daughter, about LGBTQIA mistreatment and the response by BYU regarding the Rainbow Lighting of the "Y"...
It started as a slow burn that turned into a small inferno...
I am so grateful for the two of you sharing your experiences, so lovingly and eloquently.
Love you both for doing THiS
🤗🥰🤗
Weak and confused people cycle in and out of the church all the time. That would be you. Seems you were destined to cut and run. No testimony. No Loyalty. No integrity.
Excited for this channel. It was a gradual process for me to stop going to church and stop identifying as Mormon, but then as soon as I started studying the Bible and realizing that Mormon theology completely contradicts the theology of the Bible, then my rejection of Mormonism became fast and solidified. I didn’t realize that Mormonism completely changes who God is, what Jesus’ sacrifice means, and literally the purpose of our entire existence. Once I began to study the differences and understand that Mormon theology is mutually exclusive from Bible theology, and that the church was misleading in making me believe that Mormons are essentially “just Christians but with more doctrine,” I had this hunger to dive into both theologies and figure out who God really is. That led me to find out the church admitted the papyrus the book of Abraham was translated from did not say what JS said it said. JS literally wrote in his diary that Abraham had touched and wrote on that papyrus but the papyrus was dated 2000 years after Abraham lived. I knew it was bogus after that. My search for truth led me to Jeremiah where it essentially says don’t trust your heart because it is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. So going off of “feelings” like the Mormons do would be wrong. It led me to Galatians where it says that even if an angel comes to you and preaches something different than the gospel, do not believe it. Maybe JS was intentionally a deceiver or just a man deceived himself. But you can’t tell me that every single claim JS made about the papyrus the book of Abraham came from (all claims found in church historical documents) was proven wrong (and the church even ADMITTED it was wrong) but yet he’s still a prophet of God. I just found the CES letter two days ago so now I’m down a rabbit hole learning about that. I feel like I’ve processed not being in the church community anymore since I haven’t gone to church in years (a lot of guilt at first), but there’s a betrayal you feel from learning how blatantly the church censors and changes things. There’s also a bit of betrayal to yourself that you feel for ignoring any church weirdness you knew about. But the church is good at making you question yourself. My latest mission is to continue to study the Bible to understand what it says without the influence of Mormonism, and to find a Christian church in Utah where I can be a part of a God-loving community. I want people to have informed consent if they’re essentially going to give their life over to a church, so channels like yours are important. Thanks for giving the facts.
Actually no the Bible clearly supports latter-day saint Theology. All things are eternal as latter-day saints believe and teach is found in Eccl 3:6 and 12:7. Jesus being raised in the flesh is also Bible Doctrine that the saints teach. Jesus being perfect by obedience through suffering and then became the author of eternal salvation to all them who obey him, is found in Hebrews 5:6-8.. So there was a development process that the Son of God went through, had to be in order to inherit his Throne from the Father (Rev 3;21) The Saints becoming one with Christ and with the Father in unity and purpose and to be exalted by God by his own power 1 Peter 5:6. is also Bible Doctrine taught in the Lord's Great Intercessory Prayer. The Lord will be roaring his voice in the last days from out of Zion and from Jerusalem in the future is found in the prophecies of Isaiah, Amos And Joel.... So No Zion is indeed the Lord's Kingdom that Stone Kingdom that Daniel and also John The Revelator saw on the earth and that is where the Lord and his Standard will be found and that is where the Lord will be speaking his mind and his will out from to all nations, that is the place also where the kings and queens of the world will come and inquire about Zion. For the Lord will set up an ensign a standard to all the nations from Zion. For out of Zion and from Jerusalem will go the Law of God to all the world. For out of Zion will go a flood of light and knowledge and truth
and it will fill up and spread to all the world. If there was no prophets in Zion and everybody just did what was right in their own eyes then the saints cannot be made perfect without having them.
Weak and confused people cycle in and out of the church all the time. Seems you were destined to cut and run. It is the easiest path. No testimony. No Loyalty. No integrity.
Tumbled for me. You guys nailed all of them
I am a new Latter-Day Saints convert after Awakening independently on UA-cam for the world to see having never been particularly Christian and I have to say that Latter-Day mysticism is the most powerful application and post Awakening tool.
I would definitely say that there is a cracking but that cracking is between Mormon mysticism within the church and dogmatic almost nonsensical reductionist dogmatism within the church that is now collapsing.
However I think Mormon mysticism as people quickly awakened within its and outside of it will be the fastest spreading phenomenon in the world.
Excellent podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your story.
As to the friendly pastor slipping in a rebuffed challenge to faith at In-N-Out: as a "never mormon" living in a 98% strict mormon community, and yet loving my neighbors and wanting to bring them a kernel of truth... let me say from experence: there is never a "good" time to bring it up. As you aptly describe, the total indoctrination assures that members shut down any challenge and run from the scene (of even a simple, friendly conversation)! I would not classify his (quiet) offer to talk on the subject as a "dick move"; yes, he surely knew it is a controversial subject, but I don't think he was trying to trick or hurt or disrespect the mormon group leader. Even when in a private home sitting one-on-one sipping no-caffiene tea, there is left no good time for these heartfelt conversations about the evidence of what is true and what is not. I can confidently say that with few exceptions, the initiator is motivated by kindness, love and a desire for the LDS member to awaken to the real world. We must keep trying. That simple question in their conversation, though rebuffed, was overheard by a young girl, and a seed was planted that began this journey toward truth for you. Thanks for sharing that! Just found you today and loved the episode you two brought! I will be watching more:)
Excellent conversation! I'm going to add you guys to my subscriptions that I listen to
So good! What made me wake up is my time in the High Council. The horror of what happens at the higher levels of church jolted me to able the ability to question item upon item.
Fascinating, and man, I would love to hear more about this!
Bravo! Great podcast…could relate 100 percent. And…you’re such a beautiful couple. Congratulations.
We appreciate you so much Collette!
You don't have to be reared LDS to end up with religious scrupulosity. As a young adult convert, many decades ago, before there was the internet and easy access to information about the church, I had a lot of catching up and repenting to do to ensure I could overcome my "shameful" past as a non-mormon. Imagine being in your 50's, 60's or 70's and realizing that you lived a life of fear and shame because of what turned out to be a sham. 😢
Very validating and helpful 3 weeks out for us.
Glad it was helpful!
I was taught that the reason Emma split off was because she wanted her son to become the next prophet. Was anyone else taught that?
That just unlocked a memory, yes!
that is my recollection
I'm so excited for this new endeavor! Elisha, your TT channel has been life saving for me! THANK YOU! Jamie, I'm so excited to hear your perspective on these topics! You guys are awesome!
Thank you so much Melissa!!!
Are you on Apple Podcasts? I can’t seem to find your podcast there, but I love to listen at the gym! Excited for this!
We’ll be on a podcast platform soon! Thanks Anna!
And what a cutie patootie dog! ❤️
🫶🏻🫶🏻
Short of marrying my wife, leaving my faith will probably be the best decision made in my entire life!
All things 2020 finally broke my shelf while almost 5 years a councilor in the bishopric... It took several months from there, including discovering my amazing wife was PIMO and patiently waiting the whole time. We're so grateful to be out together! It's not the same for many, unfortunately. 💔
You will one day realize that Satan has led you about and darkened your mind, and that Christ is our Only hope!
@@Fred-mp1vf What you call “Satan” seems to consume fundamentalists more than most. May you be free from those manmade and self imposed mental chains some day and experience truly unconditional love and acts of love outside of your small box (and without threats of torture).
@@Fred-mp1vf lol, I'll never realize that. How does it feel having make believe figures control your life, tell you who to hate and what to believe?
We believe in empathy and evidence in our house. Keep your fiction to yourself.
Thanks for leaving, Ryan. Saved us the trouble of throwing you out. Have a great, unaccountable life!
Commented on the other video-but honestly…I lost my faith in one night (it had nothing to do with the church itself, but more my belief in God), but it took over a decade to finally let go…so the shelf fell quickly, but I tried to hold it up faking it for too long.
Things that really challenged my faith included looking at the Hubble ultra deep field image and wondering how my prayers were actually being heard. Also, attending a funeral where the whole family proclaimed families are forever and I realized how ridiculous that sounded.
I could go on…my sibling came out as transgender. My dad died and I never felt any comfort from the spirit…and my singles ward barely acknowledged my loss. Ahh…I really do need to go write this all down. :)
Slow burn for me until I finally gave myself permission to look at both sides then everything crashed in one night and I'm so glad.
Deconstruction channels are like my ambient music but my pupils really dilated when Sister Wives entered the chat 😂. That was not where I thought you were going, but in retrospect I can totally see being mad enough about Maddie’s baptism to stop watching the show.
I left kind of like a snowball, very slow at first and then very quick at the end. I also left Christianity before mormonism. I had this idea that even if mormonism was awful that doesn't matter as long as god is real. Then I started to notice that the story of Jesus didn't really add up.
All came crashing down at that point.
It was Monson that "I'm a mormon" went live. I believe
I always thought it was interesting how higher up authorities are introduced when speaking at places like BYU. The person introducing them talks about their worldy accomplishments and degrees etc... to boast how smart they are and levels of leadership they have held trying to convince us that they are experts on the subjects they are about to talk about. It's sad.
I love you both so much ❤ can’t wait for more episodes 🥰
I am curious. Many people use the term "partner" and I was curious John Dehlin also uses that to describe his partner. Is that a way to be inclusive? Just curious. I have a very progressive thinking of what a relationship looks like other than marriage
Here’s the definition- The English word husband, even though it is a basic kinship term, is not a native English word. It comes ultimately from the Old Norse word hūsbōndi, meaning "master of a house," which was borrowed into Old English as hūsbōnda.
The root meaning of husband is “master of the house”. For us, marriage is a partnership and we felt that we wanted to use a word that signifies our dynamics better than husband and wife. We wanted to choose something that was more inclusive to our relationship that still shows our commitment to each other and the family. Thanks for asking.
@redexon love it. I really do. Thanks for that explanation
Sorry for the late reply and thank you for the question! Jamie’s answer captures it 😄🙏🏻
Not tricky at all. Leave if you want, stay if you want. Very simple choices
Just came across your channel today. Great discussion! Never-Mo but former fundie (Laestadian - a super strict religion where basically everything is considered a sin - all music, sports, dancing, alcohol, etc etc). I look forward to watching more of your content.
What I’ve heard from those who leave means you have to ignore the large number of physical evidences for the BofM, along with the wonderful spirituality in the doctrine of Christ the book contains. It seems that leaving the church causes the need to constantly review the differences from being in the church, to having left it.
There are answers to most of the questions raised, especially the CES letter. Faith still has its place.
My parents left the church for exactly the same reasons in the late 70’s, but returned recognising that they now had great spiritual feelings because their condition was different.
DNA evidence?
What physical evidence?
Love your TikTok stuff... Followed you for a while. Looking forward to more episodes.
Looking forward to your next episode ❤
Your dog is cute.
In other words,as the scales fall from you eyes
You guys are great. How i donate/contribute?
Awesome❤
I had to deconstruct because I was a spiritual mess. Messed up by unhealthy endoctrination, sex shame.
Testimony of woke ex mormons "i would like to bear my testimony, i think atheism is true, i hate my mom and dad. I know that even though Egyptologist cant even agree on a simple things like if the pyramids were built by slaves or hired labor, i know they are right if they say the Book of Abraham is wrong. I dont know if im a boy or girl even though ive been peeing in urinals at public restrooms my whole life and im 35. I know polygamy is bad and gay marriage is good. I love it that people can find their own truth as long as its not Mormonism or any real form of Biblical Christianity or Torah following Judaism. I love my dog, i love Skittles, and now that im ex Mormon, i love coffee and booz
I purposely spell endoctrination with e, meaning it's not from a god.
whats with the bed behind you>
I was a desperate deconstructor.
Are all your kids out too?
Yea, they are all no longer participating on a weekly basis. They still have member friends and might attend certain activities.
They baptize the same people? That's weird. So nobody had done the work in genealogy so they just did the same ones again? I didn't know that. Temple stuff is bizarre..I left the church in 2010. Glad to be out.
Yeah, we probably should’ve expanded on that. it’s really common to find the same person submitted for ordinances multiple times because of differences in a date or a name spelling. In some cases in family history, one person may have been baptized several times because of these little mistakes.
Think about judgment day good luck than !!
Did you lose your testimony of God???
No, I wouldn't say so but some might think it.
You are epic. Keep up great work!
I certainly deconstructed but the other way around, I woke up to the world, I was on a path leading to nowhere. There is no right way because it all depends on what you want as an individual. This is why we are placed in a world where there is good and evil and we therefore can choose for ourselves how much of each we want in our lives. Only you know where you feel comfortable and therefore have to experience both sides of the coin before you can really tell where you belong. It's a sliding scale, it's why there are 3 degrees of glory no one is either really evil or perfectly good, although both can be achieved most will be somewhere in between the two.
So what your saying is, the world don't indoctrinate you? Of course they do, but on a different path leading to a different destination. You hold the rod if you want what it's leading to, if not you can let go and wander off. The Lord often talks about storing fruit up against the season, if some fruit goes bad and you do not remove it you will eventually loose the whole storage container. So better to loose a few than the whole lot. It's why Lehi had to leave Jerusalem, Lot, Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah getting into the ark. Tower of Babel etc. I lived 36 years in the world so I cannot judge anyone, but for sure no one indoctrinated me, it all just made common sense.
You can put the whole criticism on the shelf if you are willing to ask God for yourself both Bible and Book of Mormon tell you to do so if you lack wisdom. Then none of this matters.
I personally did not like the plural marriage thing when I was investigating, when one day this was on my mind, and God spoke to me say brother have you not got 4 children and do you not love them all equally, answer was yes therefore could I not love four wives equally? In the mellenium there seems to be a shortage of men for whatever reason. Isaiah 24:5-6
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Isaiah 13:12
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
So men being few and as precious as gold, you can now understand Isaiah 4:1-2
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. 2 In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
Joseph received the revelation of plural wives way before he told anyone. BECAUSE he loved his wife and new that revelation could ruin there marriage. But the angel commanded it otherwise he would remove Joseph out of his place. One thing Joseph said was, if I told you all that God revealed to me, you would rise up and kill me! It's one reason we do not have all the truth now. Same with blacks in the priesthood the people were not ready at the time and had to wait a little longer before they would accept it. But fortunately they now have it and can extend it to all their ancestors.
So there could be alot of women if they will not accept plural marriage maybe single and separate throughout all eternity never to be loved cherish or to have continuation of seed, and therefore rejoice in their posterity. Remember this is not one man taking 7 women but 7 women taking one man as they are desperate! Why might this be? Men are killed in the wars of the last days? Or men are not as loving or Christ like as women therefore only a few will make it? We are not sure.
Initiatory is now in shirt trousers and slippers, so it's done symbolically.
The thing with those who are gay, is this; two men or two women cannot create life. So how can you become a God or Goddess if you cannot create life. No point in creating worlds, no rejoicing in your posterity!
Jeremy Runnells was a disaffected member of the church, so what can you expect. Someone looking for trouble to give them a reason to leave, so they can can now experience the world to it's fullest, best of luck with that!
Joseph Smith either did or did not see God the Father and Jesus Christ in the grove of trees. If he did then like Alma the younger felt when he had his experience with the angel felt Alma 36:12-13
I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments. 14 Yea, and I had MURDERED many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.
In a 50% chance of it being true I would not want to have on my mind for eternity the thought that I had led away or murdered many of His children. If leaving the church fine, go and live my life but to encourage others to leave even what could be true is a responsibility I would not want to own.
Be careful ask God, as with the 44,000 different Christian churches on the earth there must be away of us knowing which one is true. It's not a game of roulette, or a lucky throw of the dice, to much is resting on it.
As it truly says we are free to choose for ourselves, just not the consequences!
Remember the doors are always open, don't burn bridges, the teachings when applied really do improve my relationships with my fellow man that I can never deny whether true or false, by their fruits ye shall know them!
Two reasons why, some left THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST. Either lack of knowledge, or rebelliousness; Maybe both.
❤ The sincere seeker of truth will let the Holy Spirit guide him. I have received a sure witness from God that The Book of Mormon - Another Testament of Jesus Christ, is true. Those who humble themselves and purify their hearts before God, can receive this same witness. You have to want it badly enough to make the effort.
What about people who receive a witness that it’s a bunch of baloney? Their experience is as valid as yours.
I feel so sorry for you. I had a sure witness that the mormon church is BS
are you being taught? Are you being indoctrinated? It’s interesting how we justify things.
The church is true. All evidence that refutes this fact must be ignored.
Someone completely missed the point of the video
That's not even the name of the Church. You'd think that would be at least one thing you got right LOL. I can't take the rest seriously when you can't even get the name right.
Why do you care that critics are getting the whole name in there? For one it hardly fits in the UA-cam title (good thinking on that one, Nelson) and wouldn’t you NOT want these concerns pointed at your beloved organization which is in fact a Mormon sect? When I’m referring to doctrine it is in fact Mormonism. The church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is one of them, just one.
@@Faith.unraveled no matter how you refer to it you are coming from a spirit of the accuser which is not of God. Simply put. You've swallowed the lies and are now spewing them out in order to lead others astray. Not good man. I hope you find your way back to the iron rod one day. You are loved and missed.
never stay in mormon faith because their is no such kind of faith but we do have The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints faith, thats what we LDS have. If someone say he is a mormon for 8 years then this guy must be lying or just inactive and doesn’t honestly understand what LDS believe. Mormon faith? Common guys we do not have mormon faith but we do have LDS faith or the church of Jesus christ. Of latter day Saint faith
FYI, the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day. Saints is one sect within the umbrella of Mormonism.
@@Faith.unraveled 201% wrong. Either you got your information from google or you’re a hater because if you know what the LDS organisation inside and out you wouldn’t say that. But whatever it is the LDS is great 😊 i hope you have a great day
@@solomoncasilen7362 you as well! 🫶🏻
These apostates are really too weak to keep the faith and the commandments so what do they do? These apostates take comfort with each other, and like Joseph Smith stated: "They leave the church, but they can't leave the church alone!" That's right, there is a good side and w bad side and you apostates chose the bad side!!! " If thou wilt enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS." Jesus Christ
After reading that rant, what makes you so sure you're on the good side? I sure don't want to be a part of a cult that has got you so brainwashed to the point where you can't even see straight. And to people who say that they can't see anything wrong with this church, I give you Exhibit A: DeweyDewey.