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As DM, I learned that if I need a rule looked up, I ask my rules lawyer player. It gives him that serotonin rush he wants and gets the info I need fast, since he usually knows where to find it. He’s also learned to ask “can I ask a question about the rule now or wait till later?” It gives me the option and sometimes I’m fine with talking about it in game, especially if the consequences are dire.
I used to be too much of a rules lawyer as a player but then I adopted the following approach: shut up until the DM asks you. It's made a world of difference and now I'm more of a rules assistant.
I don't even argue in favor or against us specifically, I just wanna make the DM aware of the rule in case they are not. I just don't know when to keep my gob shut.
Best way to deal with a rules lawyer citing Crawford "Jeremy Crawford isn't running this session. I am." Edit: Also, rules _enthusiasts_ are a boon from the gods
"Crawford said that? Huh. Since we are not playing D&D, I don't give a shit what he says. This is the RPG called FantasyCraft." -- Yes, I have actually said this
@@myst_hg let me correct you there. You are not allowed to lie to your players. You’re allowed to withhold information they wouldn’t have, or change things from what was originally intended. And your NPCs are allows to lie to their characters, but you the DM are not allowed to lie to your Players.
Hi, recovering metagamer here. I’ve been clean for about eight years now. The biggest advice I can give to other meta gamers, is that people love it when you do it right. Know that there’s a trap around the corner? Boldly walk in to it, while declaring how astute at observation you are! Know that enemy is immune to fire? Cast your biggest fireball, then be aghast as it survives! These moments will be far more memorable than you always performing flawlessly, and you will get to continue feeling like the smartest person at the table.
thats such a good lesson I also learned from watching Acquisitions Incorporated play. Every opportunity for meta gaming has a much funnier opportunity for comedy. Just like you said, players can use their meta knowledge to turn their characters lack of knowledge into the funniest thing of the session (of course, if the general mood of the session permits it)
I'm also in the process of trying to stop myself but I'm also the one who has to make the plans/be the one who doesn't dump intelligence so the first step I took was play a class/character who actually knows a lot about things so the accidental blurting out of something feels less metagamey because the character would have good reason to know that too (for example I had a bard who was the younger sister to a whole bunch of adventurers and had heard stories from them that she bases her storytelling off and I had an order of scribes wizard who spends time researching monsters to help them learn to modify the magic they use) then I started having characters who only knew about specific monsters (e.g. rangers with favoured enemies) and asking if my characters would reasonably know about something (like a recent instance where we were told we were going to fight rot grubs and I asked if my ranger with beasts as the favoured enemy would know that they needed to be burnt off to avoid them burrowing)
As a Power Gamer and GM most games. My advice to power gamers is optimize to slack off. You have more flexibility to be reckless, try special actions, and let allies have your loot shares out of pure pride. If you're a tank, give the enemy a free hit, it's cool when it works and hilarious when they crit. Get serious only when neccessary. It's allot of fun.
Exactly this. I try to make powerful characters so I can actively do cool shit or make reckless moves, rather than playing tactically. I _want_ to not be 100% cautious, to not be quite 100% optimal, to do dumb daring stunts primarily because they're an option, but to have them be at least _somewhat_ viable for my character to attempt.
Good suggestions. Personally, I tend to get a bit power-gamey, especially in Pathfinder because it's so easy to do and another bit of advice I would add is that I think it's better to intentionally pick an underwhelming mechanical concept for a character and then try to optimize THAT. Don't look for the best character you can, look for an odd/interesting character that shouldn't really work well and then try to make that work as best as you can. 9 times out of 10, you'll end up with a reasonable power curve AND an interesting and fun character to roleplay.
Re: rules lawyer. You get to bring up your opinion once at the table. You get one appeal after the decision is made. After that, any further discussion takes place after the game. Also, all decisions made in the moment do not obligate the DM to make that one off decision a permanent feature of the game.
Agreed. I’ve said a handful of times when we’re unsure whether or not something is a “legal move” that “I’ll allow it this time, but let’s look in the books later and I may rule differently next time.”
I honestly love these to check my own behavior against. So thank you! I try to be hyper aware of hogging the RP as the only player at our table who super enjoys it? So I appreciate ideas on how to check myself and encourage the others too. Much appreciation :)
thank you so much for the part at 10:35 I admit that I borderline on rules lawyering a lot. I play with a lot of people that don't really look into the rules, so when a topic comes up, I usually know what the books say, they don't. What I try to do in these cases, when playing online, is I message the official rule to the dm, so they can decide whether they want to follow it or not, or when a dm hesitates in the session and says "I need to think about this", I like to bring forward what the consensus on the thing is - and most of those friends who don't know a lot of rules actually asked me if I know what the official ruling is in multiple cases. I had another player once be like "I didn't ask you, I asked the dm" in a *really* bitchy voice, and that honestly made me so incredibly insecure. Yes, the dm makes the final call, I am on board with that, but what is so bad about telling the dm what the official ruling is if they are unsure and hesitating on their call? I though that might help with deciding whether they want to follow it or not. I would get it if I was pressing to follow that ruling only, or if I was doing it openly all the time. But that just really urked me. I know, rules lawyering is annoying for others, so I keep it to myself and private conversations with the dm in 95% of the cases, but cmon, I also expect the game I play to actually be the game I play. Let me bring forward an official rule if the dm doesn't call a ruling, without any attachments of "it has to be like that".
I have a player like you. I treasure him. If I forget what the official rule/ruling is on a thing, he knows it, or knows where to find it a few minutes. It's really useful when I have umpteen different things going on. There's nothing wrong with knowing the rules. There's nothing wrong with informing the DM of the rules. You are not a "rules lawyer" unless you **argue** about what the rules are with the DM. You're fine.
100% . The method I've adopted is, "The book says..." or "Jeremy Crawford said..." and leave the fact on the table to be used or ignored. As you said, "without any attachments of 'it has to be like that'."
Thank you for taking the time to choose sponsors who make products that TTRPG’ers are actually likely to be interested in. That sounds shill-y but I really really appreciate the effort that goes into selecting products. That Army Painter kit is going to be a perfect Christmas present for a few of my players (and maybe get them to paint their minis). :)
One thing if someone is a power gamer that I’ve found to be a good solution. Be support. There are a lot of really powerful optimal builds that are support/control, and these can make the other characters feel important and useful, while the power gamer knows that they are really the one making the difference. Treantmonks God Mage video is a really good example of this. Other point is that the worst player, worse than any of these are the players that bully harass or make fun of other players at the table for roleplaying or experimenting.
I think you missed one... "That guy". This is similar to the spotlight hog (with a sprinkling of the others), but the toxicity is turned up to another level. They never want to take a backseat in any encounter. Every plan needs to be theirs. Their abilities need to be the answer to everything. And when they don't get their way, they pout. They complain. And they make the session unenjoyable for everyone else. The most popular example of this - Orion Acaba
I used to be a powergamer. Soon after I was introduced to the game, I went looking for tips/information on how to be "better" at the game, and I ended up on the 3.5 WotC Optimization forums. That's basically where I learned how to play. Took a while for me to break the mindset of needing to "win" the game. It became a bit of a joke with my friends once I did break free, but it also led me to how I would deal with powergamers when I GM: "You can powergame if you want, but remember, I'm probably better at it than you." Our GM was running another game for another group, and a couple of the players had started to lean into powergaming a bit. He got exasperated and finally told them, "If you keep this up, I'm going to have Odentin build an enemy for you to fight." They kept it up, and he brought it to me. Apparently what I built nearly TPK'd them, and they scaled back on that attitude. Every powergamer player I've had since has either taken the challenge, and took some manner of joy in the escalation, or took it to heart and toned down the need to win. In a few cases, they shifted focus to helping the rest of the party with optimization options so that EVERYONE could feel powerful together. Those have always been the most fun games, too.
I have a call for aid for the Spotlight Hog. I’m playing in a D&D campaign and have unintentionally become the “main character”. It’s to the point where the party defers to me/my character for overall party/plot decisions, one player requested to kill off their character to create a new one that respects/follows my character, and three players have said they honestly just want to watch what my character does. I’ve tried to remove my character from the decision making process multiple times by having him leave the room/area, do something stupid (I have an 8 Int), or just blatantly say “I’ll go with whatever you all decide”. I’ve also talked with the other players and told them that I’m satisfied with my character’s development arc, so if the party wants to go a direction that opposes the morals of my character then I’m more than happy to play a new character and let them either kick out or kill my old character. But the other players and the DM have said they view my character as the main character and enjoy watching what I do and then joining in themselves. It seems like I’m the only one who doesn’t like this arrangement. How would you recommend handling this? I’m still having fun and so are the other players. Should I just get over myself and embrace this since the campaign is almost over?
I was a huge meta-gamer because I love strategy games to the umpteenth degree. I basically curved it myself because I DM. I always put myself in my Monster's shoes by looking at, "What does this monster know, and what does it want?" and I do that with my character now, "Am I stupid? Do I got muscles? Yeah, I'm gonna push that boulder down the hill at the enemy convoy"
I think I fall into the rules lawyer subclass, "The Bookkeeper" I like keeping track of game states, and bringing up rules that aren't known, sharing spell effects, or weapon effects. I don't ever argue if something isn't played RAW. Just as a DM myself know it's hard to have everything on hand or know every rule. So I just share what I can so no one has to waste time looking up things. Also multiclassed into the power gamer subclass "Best Of The Worst" I like to find weird things to optimize just to see how good I can make something that is bad. But I try to not multiclass build with more than 2 classes and anything I actually play in a game, I make sure it has backstory reasons why the classes and abilities were taken.
For metagamers a tip and trust me on this it's *VERY* fun. Consider what your character knows. I once knew something about a module but my character would have presumed something else based on the information available at that time. He made a choice *I* as a player wouldn't because of the knowledge I had. It lead to a very interesting side path that neither I nor the GM was expecting because of how the group built off the faulty information of the character and ended up being a lot of fun.
I was a bit of a spotlight hog in one of those "everyone else is a wallflower" games where it felt like even the DM was a wallflower. Pulling others into the spotlight to give them a chance to shine forces them to interact with the story/scene. They might just be new to the whole tabletop scene, so as a spotlight hog you should be trying to set up situations that the other PCs would naturally set up at so that the players will get used to stepping up without having to be provoked.
I was too, and also in a party that wanted to leave every room instantly without looking beyond what the DM described, nothing I seemed to do would make the others want to RP and interact more despite my repeatedly ending up a spotlight hog by being the one to check the bookshelves for hidden spell books, or look for secret doors and the checks resulting in many secret doors being found. Grant it for 2 of the 5 players it was their first game, but even with talking to them between games they just did not want to actually interact with the environment in the game.
The way I handle spotlight hogs is by finding out what they like about the game and ask them how we can get OTHERS in the game to like it too. Example: I had a spotlight hog who was REALLY into to the roleplaying aspect. We worked together with the idea that others weren't really as engaged and it would make the roleplaying even better for this player if others were also engaged. That alone made it to where the spotlight hog was working to SHARE the spotlight at that point.
You missed "the Wangrod" (a Matt Colville word) - i.e., the toxic player, who is a jerk to the rest of the table (the thief who pick-pockets his own party member; the character who starts killing NPCs the rest of the players are trying to socially interact with; the guy who goes off by himself, wakes the whole dungeon, and brings the entire dungeon down on his party "Leroy Jenkins" style, etc.). This is arguably as bad as or possibly even worse than the Cheater.
There's a 6th type - the Disruptor. He's the player who plays the game against the other players or despite the other players. Against the other players means to steal from party members, take party loot for himself, cast AoE spells not caring it will affect party members, when the party has a plan this player refuses to do the thing he was supposed to do, attack when the party is talking to the NPC. Despite the other players is similar to the Spotlight Stealer, but he's not really hogging the game. He's playing by himself. He'll leave the party to do his own exploring doing stuff by passing secret notes with the DM. When he learns important information he will never tell the party what he learns. When the party gets into a combat or has to deal with a trap he'll sit smugly because his character is not there. After a couple of rounds then he says he'll rejoin the party so he can pompously save them from their foolishness. If the combat goes badly he's the first to run away. Going badly can also mean he either lost a hit point or at best a quarter of his hit points. He does not help other party members retreat. He is likely not to tell the other players what his class is, his character's name, not even his race.
In my experience Rules Lawyers also call out bending or rule of cool in benefit of the party. Its not just in their favor. So everyone ends up not liking them. But yeah just make it clear during session rulings by the DM are final for the session.
The worst player is a DM who thinks optimization = no RP/story. Our party is literally decked in powerful magical items we earned by being bold and yet our DM can still find a way to whoop our butts. My Mystical Monk has a 27 AC, +8 to concentration saves and can stack disadvantage on all that and he still almost wiped out our party in Tyranny of Dragons. What are these soft DMs excuses?
You don’t bring a separate dice bag of uncouth dice, just in case someone asks to borrow some? In the words of Wild Bill Hickcock…shouldn’t touch another man’s dice.
I am the power gamer… Though I make a cool character concept first, then make something wildly powerful with the concept I made (such as, say, an Eladrin bard with a sword that contains the soul of his great great Archfey grandfather, the build being a Hexblade 5/Swords Bard 6 with Darkness+Devil’s Sight+Elven Accuracy+Double Bladed Scimitar). This lets the DMs I play with throw some crazy stuff at the party (which I can generally help the party deal with very well). I’m also a Rules Lawyer, and I say stuff that goes in the party’s favor *and* bane (such as when my character I had played for about 2 years died, and the battle had ended which means they shouldn’t be able to be revived [RAW, in the specific OSR system], I just told everybody that they died fair and square, and that a med kit just shouldn’t be able to get used RAW).
Spotlight hogs really get my goat (as a DM and a player). One time I had a player who just didn’t know when to shut up. He was dominating the game and the other players complained to me that he wasn’t letting them have a chance to role play their PCs. To put a stop to this, I pulled him aside after a game session and had a chat with him. I explained to him that I understood that he was enthusiastic about the game, but at the same time, he needed to let the other players play the game too. After all, D&D is a team game, not a single player game. I also asked him to help me out by asking the other players questions to get them to engage more often. Thankfully it worked and I haven’t had any more problems with him.
then theres those players who put themself in every situation, even ones they shouldnt know of or be in, including crucial backstory ones for other players
we have an inner joke in our table that I'm the "rules f*g" as I'm the most knowledgeable on the rules in the game, but it's taken more as a fallback for the party and the DM as they have any doubts. and no. this isn't said in an insulting way.
I try really hard to get other party members to speak up and give input. Sometimes it feels like it is left to me to move the story forward. I am conflicted by this. I want others to participate more.
It’s important to remember that for a significant subset of players, the thing they want most is “to have fun playing a game with friends,” and so being a spotlight hog is actually helpful. Communication is the critical component to knowing if you’re a “bad” hog or a “good” hog.
For Rules Lawyers: I give each player one challenge token per game. If they disagree with a ruling I make, they can use the token and challenge me. They have one-minute to make their case. I will make my decision, and the matter is settled until after the game. At that point, I usually get an earful.
Hey there! Love your content and can't wait to see more :D I'm a writer and narrative designer in the tabletop and video game industry and I've been thinking about revamping my channel to focus more on tabletop content (as that's what I've been doing freelance for - just worked on NeverEnding's Anansi's Tapestry of Lives Kickstarter) with a perspective from a DM who also writes and designs professionally. I'd love to pick your brains or have a chat about creating TTRPG content for UA-cam as I'm trying to get advice on what/how to do it pretty much.
For Metagamers, I just likr to remind them, also as a player myself. E.g. "Remember: Your character doesn't know that.". That should work most of the time.
I used to DM a lot and I've usually made it clear when we get a new player that the rules are to assist my storytelling and the player's immersion. If the person has a problem with how I interpret a rule or game mechanic, he is free to speak to me about it after a session but I don't condone disruptive arguments during gameplay.
So what's your goal in DM'ing and your view of DnD? Do you run primarily a game with rules that has storytelling like an RPG, or a story that has some rules closer to a byo adventure book? I find that the first lends itself to rules lawyers and power players. To them its multiplayer game. Where the second is more for RP storytelling players. I think expectation is incredibly important especially when getting new players. If you're the former wouldn't it be best to just draft up a rule addendum to hand out ahead of time then? It avoids any complications and as long as you're consistent and fair and the rules lawyers will have nothing to lawyer. If you're the latter, just saying that will keep both lawyers and power gamers from even wanting to join in my experience.
@@elliottparks8762 For me it's more about the storytelling. I played a lot of VTM and there were other times where I'd run games without any game mechanics at all. I'll list house rules at the start of a campaign but I don't mind people having complaints about mistakes I made or the interpretation of specific rules. I'm more than happy to listen to complaints after sessions but I won't allow a session to devolve into an argument or a debate on rules. I've been DMing since the early 90s so there's not many rules I haven't heard and I know I don't interpret things exactly as other's do so I don't mind people pointing out problems they have with my rulings but, for the enjoyment of others, as well as myself, I don't like sessions getting out of hand.
I have to give props to your delivery, even as I'm listening to this video while doing something else, your voice work and intonations keep me from zoning out of it and getting distracted
I'm a power gamer so I usually get around it by only playing healing/support characters. This way I don't ruin the game for everyone else and more enable my party to do more fun things! I also try and bake in a serious character flaw into my PC like for example my circle of stars druid has a wisdom of 22 and can heal with a single cure wounds for like 30 health. But he has an intelligence of 7. So I make him walk into obvious traps or get led on by people because he just is not smart enough to know any better! Plus I regularly make my character the butt of jokes because he's such an idiot so it prevents him from being the "I'm good at everything" hero.
My favorite meta-gaming that I’ve ever done was using Ice Knife against a monster that I knew was resistant to cold damage. I knew that the monster was resistant, but my character didn’t and I was playing my character! The funny part was when I told the DM that after the session and he said, “I’d forgotten that they were resistant to cold.” So I got the full damage anyway!
I broke a meta gamer by straight up telling the entire group for every instance of meta gaming there will be a curse for that player. It only took one time. They never meta gamed again
I feel the worst when i wrongly apply some character meccanics, doing more than i should have done. For example when i used "Heart of the Storm" of my Sorcerer, and i COMPLETELY overloocked the range limtation, i was doing like 4 damage to every enemy on the board. When i realised that, it was too late, but to feel better i streight up told the other players that i had done something wrong.
To the cheaters. "Oh, we're cheating in this session? I guess I will too..." Then you railroad them with "questionable" calls and rolls. After session, you sit down with them and ask them if their going to cheat in the future.
As a DM don't show the whole battle map until you feel they do get to see the things. If monster's are still hidden don't confuse the meta-gamer with things they see. I don't play a meta-gamer if I am first level I make foolish mistakes that sometimes kills the party because a a newb you do that but as I level my character learns things. If I play a ranger and I have specialized in hunting trolls as I level I learn and therefore know what the basic troll stats are. I was in the military and as I progressed in rank and training, I learned where to expect ambushes, an adventure should also be able to make good decisions. So if 5ht lvl druid sees something blocking the road like a turned over wagon and chooses to to cast entangle in the tree line that's could be ideal for hiding an ambush. Or a caster who is a CN or even Evil decides to cast produce flame and start to hurl fire in like it was calling in Napalm to remove the foliage. Cantrips are cheap and easy.
I have ASD and have a tendency to be a bit of a "rules lawyer", especially if I feel it leads to something unjust! But as I grown older, my memory starts to fail me, so I’m not as bad as I used to be!
@@DaDunge I can do that as well, and my own "rule lawyering" is mostly if there's something I find unjust. I fully recognize that the DM has to have room to manoeuvre within to make a game exiting. So I don't argue over everything! I think both your response and mine can be within typical traits of people with ASD. At least if it's to such a degree that it's more than most other people.
@@gorillaguerillaDK yeah I can also from time to time bring up a rule but I try to remember to phrase it along the lines of "It's your call but I think RAW it's like this". Bringing up rules is not a problem really its when the DM makes a ruling and someone keeps arguing.
For Power Gamers, I limit what's available to use to official sources only and only those I have access to/have reviewed For Rules lawyers, I listen to them and if what they say makes sense and won't break the game I consider it, but I'm firm that I'm the one who is in charge of the rules and will shoot down whatever I think will not help the game, official ruling or no. For spotlight hogs or even when it's just wallflower players, I address the players directly to make sure everybody gets a say. Sometimes people are okay with one person taking a leadership role and if everyone is happy I let it be. For metagamers, I don't allow them to take actions unless they have an in character explaination. I often change monster stats and weaknesses so that usually isn't an issue. For Cheaters, all rolls must be visible to me and left on the table to be counted. If digitally players can only roll when I call for it, and for 'accident' rolls I just take whatever the d20 roll was and add proper modifiers, never allow a reroll. For all of them though, I always try to talk to the problem player first. Most times that solves the problem.
Do I like to optimize? Hell yeah. Does it feel good to have a 27% chance to crit for an average of 216 damage? Uh huh. Is that the optimized, most effective tactic available for all situations? No, ew, who wants that? We care about fun, not usefulness.
I definitely was infected with power gaming skills after years playing with a group of them But I think the difference that helps keep me apart from the typical Munchkin is intent My intent behind building mechanically robust characters isn't to be badass; its to be the best support for a given role that my fellow companions can require. If I'm making a support character I'm going Twilight Cleric who will stack auras of Temp Hp, real hp (on a bonus action for the rest of the right on a single spell slot) and mounted/armored for quick high ac combat medic transits. Or my current Artificer who (upon realizing we were all full casters with almost no armor lol) went full battle turtle; heavy no spell buffed AC of 22, multitude of reaction abilities, flight and strength to evac fallen squishies and then heal them my Cure, teleportation to interpose this Armored Artificer between an oncoming big baddy and a half hp'd Wizlock or Barzard to prevent the inevitable. I've got mediocore damage and a considerably smaller list of spells compared to the rest of the party and my healing is quite middling (ever heal matters). Its never really about Power Gaming for myself, its for the safety or success of others. I need no credit, I take no spotlight (with natural occasions as exception; I'm not a wallflower lol)
The screamer : Whenever they are dealt damage from at least 1 attack. They start panicing because they lost 3 hit points on a total of 58 and they're sure they're going to die.
I agree that cheaters shouldn't be on the list because it's just a given. Boot them. For my list, my #4 would be the Tantrum Thrower. They're the ones who pout and cross their arms, saying "I don't know why I even play" when you say "no" or try to reason with them when they throw out the most convoluted and ridiculous game plan. It's not even in the same plane of existence as a Matt Mercer "You can certainly try." It's just not going to happen, and the suggestion itself made you feel like you lost a few IQ points. But those people thought it was perfectly sound, and now they're pouting like a toddler, crossing their arms, and sitting away from you. They might even get up and leave the table to go play on their phone for a while because all you'll do is criticize them if they keep playing, and maybe they'll just go home instead. If they're really upset, they'll hop around and use their whiny voice. For me, that Tantrum Thrower was also the Power Gamer AND was the Spotlight Hog. It was really bad.
This whole video breaks down into a very simple business principle: Don't hate the player, hate the behavior. Communicate, empathize both for the DM and players and work together to make a better game.
Maybe it's because what my brother always played but I hate the tragic backstory lonewolf character. The indifference and lack of trust just feels like they would rather be doing something else.
What about ‘Loot Hogs’? Players that abandon the encounter so that they can be the first to claim the loot. Once in possession they become a Gollum holding and controlling their precious prize and all other PCs better keep their hands off and their opinions to themselves. I refuse to play with players like this. I personally think Loot Hogs are worse than Meta Gammers; at least that person is trying to synergies with the Party.
I admit I have the DM vs Player mentality as DM. But I am not toxic about it. I find the combat stress is helpful when the enemies are actually trying to kill the players
I'm surprised we didn't see like "The Constantly Distracted Player" that's never really at the session even when they're physically present. No matter how much you try to involve them, you can't because they don't know what's going on and haven't been paying attention to any of the context for their situation.
If you have one player that is all of these except the cheater? The #1 spot goes to a player that is more than one of these. A rules lawyer alone is almost as bad as a cheater, it’s like 1A & 1B. I don’t really mind an optimized/power build, but mix that with meta-gaming, and telling other players what to do with their turns makes me want to just shut down a game.
Another bit of advice for dealing with the Spotlight Hog is to resolve their stuff at the appropriate moments. If that player was the first to get to a door to check it out then of course you resolve them checking for traps and lockpicking the door immediately. But if you've got a player who likes to run and bounce all over the map and wants to be involved in every little thing... make them wait. If they are the sort to go off and explore a hallway while the rest of the group is checking out a door but then they want to run back when that door finally gets opened, then wait to resolve what they find when the explore said hallway until *after* the group has entered that room and had a few moments to look around.
The unprepared. I don't mean inexperienced, I mean the player who's played before, plays a spellcaster and doesn't read their spell descriptions so they try and cast hellish rebuke as an action and then roll to hit
I think it always good for the DM to ask ho your character would know that before assuming meta gaming. You be surprised how many times players have a good in game reason or just go oh shoot your right nvm.
I had a habitual cheater in one of my sessions that was a close friend. After many "gentle" attempts to correct the behavior, the entire party had to sit down with her intervention style to discuss how to move the game forward in positive ways and get rid of bad habits moving forward. Props to my players for also discussing things they could do to get rid of their bad habits, so as to not make the cheater feel singled out. IT DIDNT WORK. She threw a $*%tfit and went on to drag every party members name through the mud to anyone who would listen, all the while claiming she did nothing wrong. All this to say: great video, and heed the advice to deal with these problems as soon as you can, because when a player develops/shows signs of being multiple types on this list, especially the cheater, kick them the hell out!
It’s because of people like that I am a rules lawyer. Had similar cheating happen with a couple players out of a large group. Shortly after we didn’t have a group.
I feel like people who complain about Powergamers and "I read the Rules book" need to show what they mean. I shouldnt have to beg and grovel for knowinf how to play my class. Unless it just cheese plays, screw cheese.
I would like to add: the bipolar player. An especially painful subsection of the disengaged player. One who becomes a spotlight hog when their dice are on fire, and when they start rolling poorly, they disengage and get silent, or get super, super upset. Basically, someone whose enjoyment is based off of the success of the dice rolls.
I remember when my friends and I first got into D&D. I will admit I was probably a “meta gamer” but it was because I’ve played many strategy video games and none of them were very strategically inclined. I also came into the learning D&D with a VERY video game-y mindset so it took a while for me to be able to shut that off and separate player knowledge from character knowledge and let my friends learn battle field strategy
For the cheaters I approach a bit different. I always tell my players I don't care what they roll... They can roll nat20 every time if they so choose, as long as they are having fun. BUT there is a catch. Nat 1s in my games are also super fun and make for an interesting story. So if they wanna ruin the game for themselves, go right ahead... I'm going to be having fun either way
I don't think I've ever used a monster straight from the manual. They always have something added or changed just so "passive meta gaming" is impossible... just ran a werewolf that has electrical powers instead of the bite giving them lycanthropy it paralyzed them
Loved the callisto reference for Perfect Dark. Definitely great video for checking our own play styles. As both a player and a DM/GM, I'm always looking to improve my roleplaying
The player PvPer despite it not being that kind of game, the lone wolf that constantly has to be pulled into group activities and/or complains about not being in them, the butthole bc their character would do it players.......its tough to make just a top 5 to be sure. Just don't think I would put power gamer above these ones.
I really like that meta gamers were basically lumped with cheaters... Haha. But 5 is better than 4 in a title block. Meta gamers basically cheat in roleplay and knowledge as compared to cheaters fudging dice. Both can ruin play. I had a meta gaming group that would be split, but when a potential enemy popped up they immediately knew to start to group up. This made a possible social interaction a combat sequence that scared away a lonely enemy.
Power gaming is literally taking the game seriously. It's a session 0 issue. You either tell players that it's serious game where they have to try to actually win or that it's purely narrative or silly thing.
Cody, great video…but you’re wrong. The worst players are the ones that are none of these. The ones who don’t know the rules, don’t know their character, don’t take notes, don’t know what’s going on in the game, and wouldn’t think to try to fudge a roll because they JUST. DON’T. CARE. Yeah, all of the above you listed are sins - ones we are all likely guilty of to some degree at some time in our gaming lives. But the players who have never done any of these…I’d take any one of the above over them. Why? Because they are redeemable, and *want* to play the game. That dude who asked the GM to make them a character that they then never read, and watch sportsball on their device while the party is a life-or-death battle with the BBEG? They are the worst.
Finally.....these lists of worst players and DMs are silly. Like you all those flaws are redeemable. But someone who doesn't know how use their shape change as a druid after 11 games is not.
• the problem with the lonely Power Gamer is that, if you wanna make the game fun for them, you might have a TPK, as all other PCs will die. either we have a Powergaming party or a party with a PC that's just above the curve. • having a player who you cab defer most questionable rulings to, or who can give you advice if you don't kniw what to do is a blessing; having a "rules for me, not for thee" cheater is a curse.
If you accuse someone of cheating be 110% sure they actually cheated please. It really hurts to be accused when you actually didn’t cheat you weren’t fudging those perception rolls you just had a + 7 and no one thought to check
For power gaming, this can happen as a surprise to the player. Specifically it was a surprise to me when I choose Lore Bard and took counterspell and Fireball - and I happened to obtain a broom of flying as well. We were playing AL so the DMs could do nothing to stop me. Didn't even mean to be super powerful, I just happened to fall into an extremely powerful build. I'm running a twilight Cleric now which I choose because I thought it fit the setting - Wild beyond the Witchlight. The channel divinity breaks the game over its knee and I didn't realize that before I choose the class. Not sure what to do about it. I'm trying to emphasize his fishing background over combat prowess - but we just did two encounters in a row where zero party members took damage.
I don't prefer the term "cheater". I prefer "dice fudger". I mean, come on. We've all had those sessions where the dice just aren't cooperating. You're completely ineffective in combat, you're blowing all your skill checks, and you're at the bottom of the initiative order every time. You're not having fun and you just want something to go *right* for a change. In that instance, sometimes I can see overruling a dice roll with your own result. It sucks to feel like you're not contributing.
100% i play a cleric5 fight dip 1 and i managed to get 25 BASE AC….. i was basicly our tank now however the DM Droped a shield of missiles i took and now i am rear player using ranged and shielding the party from missles allowing the ranger to bow the monsters past my range from shield… granting everyone a AC25. from ranged attacks
Im def a power gamer but I don't understand the power gamers who use homebrew content. I like to power game to see what I can do within the system I'm put in. Homebrew takes the fun out of it. But if a dm wants me to not power game (which hasn't happened yet because I play with seasoned veterans who are at best optimizers) then I'll make a fun gimic character who's really good at something useless (like being incredibly good at cooking)
as a powergamer in denial (im clean, when it comes to ebberon backgrounds now so getting better :D) ruleslawyer turned on demand RAW library and somebody in dire fear of being a spotlight hog (im playing a paladin, lets face it, its the class that does it the most i feel) i appriciate this video :D how about a top 5 for the Best players too?
Being a DM myself I find very difficult not to lightly metagame when I play. If I see a monster that have resistance/immunity to fire do I use my fireball anyway and call "I know but my character doesn't"? How can I not wast resources without bringing my knowledge to the table?
I'm typically the "most experienced" player at the tables I play at. I try really, really hard to not be a rules stickler when DMs are doing things on the fly, or maybe don't know the rules or mechanics as much or as readily as I do. The biggest thing I've tried to learn lately is to be the "anti-spotlight hog" that you mentioned. I have been making a point to urge other players to use their strengths (in-game and in-character) to help the party. "I think you're probably the best suited to lead us through this forest" or "maybe you could have a look around, you're pretty attentive". It's really fulfilling and honestly more fun to see others shine and get excited about the game/their character in those moments. And the game functions and flows better!
Metagamers: for planned encounters I tweak powers, abilities, stats, and spells to accommodate the particulars of the campaign/story that's being explored. Maybe the group is exploring a thick, dark forest full of spider webs and spiders, I'll add a clan of orcs suited for that terrain with freedom of movement capability to navigate and use the webs to suit them, giving them ability boosts in dex instead of str, and poison resist or immunity depending on group level. I'm matching a theme and mood for the story and keeping the players in wonderment at the world, hopefully. For random encounters I usually stick to the defaults in the monster manual, unless I have a better idea on the spot that fits, such as 3-5 wolves for forest terrain and instead use howling spiders with pack tactics instead (to go with the example above). The way I justify it to players that have a problem with it, go to Google Images and search on the word 'dog' and tell me how many pictures show the exact same breed of dog to represent the animal 'dog'. There is variability to species, some are large, some are short, some are fast or slow, etc... monsters are just as variable, minus specific ones like tarrasques or banshees for instance. There are usually lore reasons why they are the way the are and for the most part I'll observe that.
Cheaters are kicked after a single second chance seems harsh, But then again ive never had (or atleast noticed) a cheater in my group. Seems like if they cheat in a game like dnd they might have bigger problems and need help instead of getting kicked out the group.
Is it cheating or spotlight hogging if one player keeps going to the DM privately to approve his plans first, lets the DM fudge on his behalf because "the DM makes the rules" and has to have his character have boons and "flaws" other players don't exactly like
Well, I just noticed I‘m every single one of them when I‘m a player. That is exactly why (when I decided I want to play dnd with my friends) I am the DM most if the time. Then every problem that could arise from me being wayy to addicted to attention can just be refocused on me being the one that is creating a fun game for everyone and I‘m not in competiton with my friends.
Cheater aside, they are all amped up versions of good. Folks should know the rules, be keen to take part, be thinking out strategy. I think the trick is to ask them to "make it fun for everyone". So metagamer, put yourself in the wrong spot; rules lawyer, help if you are asked; spotlight hog, shine the light elsewhere.
Thank you SO much for this video! Another problem player that was technically covered by your "metagamer", is the player who reads the module along with the game, a week ahead, so that they know what's coming and what will happen. I liked your reference about how the "first time" experience only happens once. It's like watching a movie for the 2nd time. I have a player in my group that, after being asked at least once not to do so, has continued to do so. His actions and choices telegraph every time that he knows the story, the map, the motives... it's getting out of hand. It's just nice to know that others do not enjoy this play style either. I don't understand how that can be fun for some people. He doesn't gloat about his knowledge, so I don't think he's motivated by that. But others who are new to the game, are watching his actions and taking queues from him. So when he won't go into a room, they won't either because "there must be some reason he won't go in." It's time to call it out at the table.
The worst players i've had to deal with are 1. I had player who was constantly trying to screw over the other players by taking items and at times attacking npcs and the party 2. A player who was very indecisive, they didnt do much out of combat, and in combat they took forever to make their next move Any suggestions on how to improve their gameplay? For the first player, I had them get arrested because they were attacking npcs in a heavily guarded city. But I felt like that was very unfair towards the player and the party because they didnt want to go along with that plotline For the second player, I usually would just remind them of the things they could do in combat until they settled on an action, but that could end up feeling like im suggesting exactly what they should do
This kind of gives me an idea of a kind of non-meta metagamer, where you play a scholarly type who has multiple tomes on reference. They don't necessarily know everything, but if a combat starts with an unfamiliar enemy, imagine them hurriedly flicking through their tomes trying to find a weakness as the other players hold it off. Some things would also be completely unknown and the scholar seeks to document them, adding their own additions to the in world scholarly literature.
I have the problem, that I become an unwanted rule lawyer at the table, when the GM is actually not prepared or doesn't know the rules. Because he gives regulary advantage to players they don't possess. (Give them class features of other classes or even legendary weapons (self designed and.not aware that they possess legendary weapons stats and do not see the problem) Or disadvantage to other players because he didn't know that their character had that skill, which would end a fight or a puzzle. Or he even denies spells for example suggestion, because he doesn't like how the spell works and denies it regularly and say don't use this kind of spells, it distroys my game. That makes it sometimes really hard to stay motivated as a player and triggers my inner rules lawyer. How would you handle the situation?
I have a few characters that are pseudo powergamey but that's mostly because I rolled like a god with their stats (one of my favourite characters for roleplay and combat, my half drow gloomstalker, has a dump stat of 12) and apparently I chose insane subclasses (gloomstalker which I chose because it sounded cool and had some slight underdark flavour) but even then they're only somewhat optimised because I love intelligence even if it's kinda rubbish for example my gloomstalker has 12 str, 20 dex, 13 con, 16 or 17 int, 19 wis and 16 or 17 cha (I don't have her character sheet on hand but that's with the half elf +2 moved to dex thanks to Tasha's and +1 in wis and cha because I wanted ranger stats and I kept charisma as a +1 because she's half drow even though girlie's lived in the forest with her half siblings basically her whole life so she's got high charisma but she's also more than happy to let someone else be the face of the party) she's basically a nerd who I've decided can read and write various languages but has poor pronunciation in most (common and elvish are fine because her siblings taught her and thieves' cant is fine because it's speaking in code rather than another language) because she learnt from books rather than someone who can speak the language I've also started role playing her with minor sun sensitivity because I wanted to make her a little less insane and some party members were complaining a bit that she was killing things too quickly (sharpshooter, dread ambusher, extra attack, probable advantage, Hunter's mark*, sneak attack from the one rogue level** which is 4d8 + 3d6* + 1d6** + 45 for an average 77 (53-101) damage assuming all sharpshooter hits and no crits and up to 157 damage (61-157, average 109) if everything crits) ironically I actually made her backstory first then rolled like a god and gave her stats according to the backstory (charisma was partly the half drow natural charisma and also because she totally has her older siblings wrapped around her little finger)
QUESTION: What about DM metagamers? When DM's conspire with one of the group to make sure the slant of the plot or fight go as intended. It's not fun for the other players when they realize this isn't for them and feels preordained, like the other characters don't matter.
Take you DM aside and tell them you feel like you are just spectators instead of players in a TTRPG game. Honestly the best way a player described railroading/having no agency to me.
Question: is it always the same player, or did you possibly misunderstand the DM attempting to give everyone “their time in the spotlight?” The difference is subtle, and the DM’s ability plays a huge factor in how obvious it would look that that’s what’s happening, so a newer, less experienced DM might be trying and giving more attention to a single player because they react most often, and the DM is winging it. Or it could be the DM is trying to slide into that players DMs and it’s a totally bad DM thing to be doing. Or that DM and player are close friends and they don’t care about the group. Or whatever. Thousands of ways to be a bad DM. Nuance, is my point. I’d like more data please. Feel free to not.
@@demonzabrak a new DM, always the same player in spotlight and getting the rewards, rest of group has to sit there and watch, constantly. And DM keeps doing things to exclude the group and focus on the same one player. For some reason, didn't get the update until now. Thanks for commenting!
I recently adopted a new methodology I like for rules lawyering. Try not to interrupt more than twice a session. Save other cases for after the game. Write a note so if you forget, you can review your notes to remind yourself to discuss with the GM after the game. You might also want to consider only interrupting for big differences in outcomes. This does not mean you let the little stuff slide by forever, you just wait till after the game. It is also very helpful if you have page references ready when you bring up the case.
most of the power gamers I've played with were insanely dedicated role players too. they learned how the game works and you're gonna punish that? power gamers are different from meta gamers who memorize enemy stats.
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@@Taking20 Hey man, just realized it’s been a year since your last vids. Really hope you come back!
As DM, I learned that if I need a rule looked up, I ask my rules lawyer player. It gives him that serotonin rush he wants and gets the info I need fast, since he usually knows where to find it. He’s also learned to ask “can I ask a question about the rule now or wait till later?” It gives me the option and sometimes I’m fine with talking about it in game, especially if the consequences are dire.
I used to be too much of a rules lawyer as a player but then I adopted the following approach: shut up until the DM asks you. It's made a world of difference and now I'm more of a rules assistant.
A rules paralegal, if you will.
Rules assistants are actually amazing! I have two at my table and with the 3 of us we know every rule, which is so helpful.
I don't even argue in favor or against us specifically, I just wanna make the DM aware of the rule in case they are not. I just don't know when to keep my gob shut.
I started off as a rules lawyer too but it was because I didn’t want anyone to lose out on anything they shouldn’t have
I’ve had pretty much the same experience. My friends all know that I know the rules and want to help, so I stay quiet until they ask me a question.
Best way to deal with a rules lawyer citing Crawford
"Jeremy Crawford isn't running this session. I am."
Edit: Also, rules _enthusiasts_ are a boon from the gods
IDC what anyone says (Crawford included), elves need to take a 8 hour break for a long rest. 4 for meditating, 4 for rec/craft time.
"Crawford said that? Huh. Since we are not playing D&D, I don't give a shit what he says. This is the RPG called FantasyCraft." -- Yes, I have actually said this
I usually tell my players that I am technically allowed to lie to them and make up whatever I need for the scenario
@@myst_hg are they lying to you also?
@@myst_hg let me correct you there. You are not allowed to lie to your players. You’re allowed to withhold information they wouldn’t have, or change things from what was originally intended. And your NPCs are allows to lie to their characters, but you the DM are not allowed to lie to your Players.
Hi, recovering metagamer here. I’ve been clean for about eight years now.
The biggest advice I can give to other meta gamers, is that people love it when you do it right. Know that there’s a trap around the corner? Boldly walk in to it, while declaring how astute at observation you are! Know that enemy is immune to fire? Cast your biggest fireball, then be aghast as it survives! These moments will be far more memorable than you always performing flawlessly, and you will get to continue feeling like the smartest person at the table.
thats such a good lesson I also learned from watching Acquisitions Incorporated play. Every opportunity for meta gaming has a much funnier opportunity for comedy.
Just like you said, players can use their meta knowledge to turn their characters lack of knowledge into the funniest thing of the session (of course, if the general mood of the session permits it)
I'm also in the process of trying to stop myself but I'm also the one who has to make the plans/be the one who doesn't dump intelligence so the first step I took was play a class/character who actually knows a lot about things so the accidental blurting out of something feels less metagamey because the character would have good reason to know that too (for example I had a bard who was the younger sister to a whole bunch of adventurers and had heard stories from them that she bases her storytelling off and I had an order of scribes wizard who spends time researching monsters to help them learn to modify the magic they use) then I started having characters who only knew about specific monsters (e.g. rangers with favoured enemies) and asking if my characters would reasonably know about something (like a recent instance where we were told we were going to fight rot grubs and I asked if my ranger with beasts as the favoured enemy would know that they needed to be burnt off to avoid them burrowing)
Sounds like you’re doing great! Keep up the good work!
As a Power Gamer and GM most games. My advice to power gamers is optimize to slack off. You have more flexibility to be reckless, try special actions, and let allies have your loot shares out of pure pride. If you're a tank, give the enemy a free hit, it's cool when it works and hilarious when they crit. Get serious only when neccessary. It's allot of fun.
Exactly this. I try to make powerful characters so I can actively do cool shit or make reckless moves, rather than playing tactically. I _want_ to not be 100% cautious, to not be quite 100% optimal, to do dumb daring stunts primarily because they're an option, but to have them be at least _somewhat_ viable for my character to attempt.
Good suggestions. Personally, I tend to get a bit power-gamey, especially in Pathfinder because it's so easy to do and another bit of advice I would add is that I think it's better to intentionally pick an underwhelming mechanical concept for a character and then try to optimize THAT. Don't look for the best character you can, look for an odd/interesting character that shouldn't really work well and then try to make that work as best as you can. 9 times out of 10, you'll end up with a reasonable power curve AND an interesting and fun character to roleplay.
Re: rules lawyer.
You get to bring up your opinion once at the table. You get one appeal after the decision is made. After that, any further discussion takes place after the game. Also, all decisions made in the moment do not obligate the DM to make that one off decision a permanent feature of the game.
Agreed. I’ve said a handful of times when we’re unsure whether or not something is a “legal move” that “I’ll allow it this time, but let’s look in the books later and I may rule differently next time.”
I honestly love these to check my own behavior against. So thank you! I try to be hyper aware of hogging the RP as the only player at our table who super enjoys it? So I appreciate ideas on how to check myself and encourage the others too. Much appreciation :)
thank you so much for the part at 10:35
I admit that I borderline on rules lawyering a lot. I play with a lot of people that don't really look into the rules, so when a topic comes up, I usually know what the books say, they don't. What I try to do in these cases, when playing online, is I message the official rule to the dm, so they can decide whether they want to follow it or not, or when a dm hesitates in the session and says "I need to think about this", I like to bring forward what the consensus on the thing is - and most of those friends who don't know a lot of rules actually asked me if I know what the official ruling is in multiple cases.
I had another player once be like "I didn't ask you, I asked the dm" in a *really* bitchy voice, and that honestly made me so incredibly insecure. Yes, the dm makes the final call, I am on board with that, but what is so bad about telling the dm what the official ruling is if they are unsure and hesitating on their call? I though that might help with deciding whether they want to follow it or not. I would get it if I was pressing to follow that ruling only, or if I was doing it openly all the time. But that just really urked me.
I know, rules lawyering is annoying for others, so I keep it to myself and private conversations with the dm in 95% of the cases, but cmon, I also expect the game I play to actually be the game I play. Let me bring forward an official rule if the dm doesn't call a ruling, without any attachments of "it has to be like that".
I have a player like you. I treasure him. If I forget what the official rule/ruling is on a thing, he knows it, or knows where to find it a few minutes. It's really useful when I have umpteen different things going on.
There's nothing wrong with knowing the rules. There's nothing wrong with informing the DM of the rules. You are not a "rules lawyer" unless you **argue** about what the rules are with the DM. You're fine.
Ah, so you're more a Rules Solicitor rather than a Rules Barrister.
It sounds like the player was trying to get away with something because the DM did not know and did not like geting caught.
100%
.
The method I've adopted is, "The book says..." or "Jeremy Crawford said..." and leave the fact on the table to be used or ignored. As you said, "without any attachments of 'it has to be like that'."
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One thing if someone is a power gamer that I’ve found to be a good solution. Be support. There are a lot of really powerful optimal builds that are support/control, and these can make the other characters feel important and useful, while the power gamer knows that they are really the one making the difference. Treantmonks God Mage video is a really good example of this.
Other point is that the worst player, worse than any of these are the players that bully harass or make fun of other players at the table for roleplaying or experimenting.
Yes, this. It's a great way to use your power-gaming talent for the benefit of everyone, I completely agree.
I think you missed one... "That guy". This is similar to the spotlight hog (with a sprinkling of the others), but the toxicity is turned up to another level. They never want to take a backseat in any encounter. Every plan needs to be theirs. Their abilities need to be the answer to everything. And when they don't get their way, they pout. They complain. And they make the session unenjoyable for everyone else.
The most popular example of this - Orion Acaba
This 💯. We had one of these and it's not something you can usually fix.
You just reminded me of those hellish first episodes...
I used to be a powergamer. Soon after I was introduced to the game, I went looking for tips/information on how to be "better" at the game, and I ended up on the 3.5 WotC Optimization forums. That's basically where I learned how to play. Took a while for me to break the mindset of needing to "win" the game.
It became a bit of a joke with my friends once I did break free, but it also led me to how I would deal with powergamers when I GM: "You can powergame if you want, but remember, I'm probably better at it than you."
Our GM was running another game for another group, and a couple of the players had started to lean into powergaming a bit. He got exasperated and finally told them, "If you keep this up, I'm going to have Odentin build an enemy for you to fight." They kept it up, and he brought it to me. Apparently what I built nearly TPK'd them, and they scaled back on that attitude.
Every powergamer player I've had since has either taken the challenge, and took some manner of joy in the escalation, or took it to heart and toned down the need to win. In a few cases, they shifted focus to helping the rest of the party with optimization options so that EVERYONE could feel powerful together. Those have always been the most fun games, too.
I have a call for aid for the Spotlight Hog. I’m playing in a D&D campaign and have unintentionally become the “main character”. It’s to the point where the party defers to me/my character for overall party/plot decisions, one player requested to kill off their character to create a new one that respects/follows my character, and three players have said they honestly just want to watch what my character does.
I’ve tried to remove my character from the decision making process multiple times by having him leave the room/area, do something stupid (I have an 8 Int), or just blatantly say “I’ll go with whatever you all decide”. I’ve also talked with the other players and told them that I’m satisfied with my character’s development arc, so if the party wants to go a direction that opposes the morals of my character then I’m more than happy to play a new character and let them either kick out or kill my old character. But the other players and the DM have said they view my character as the main character and enjoy watching what I do and then joining in themselves. It seems like I’m the only one who doesn’t like this arrangement. How would you recommend handling this? I’m still having fun and so are the other players. Should I just get over myself and embrace this since the campaign is almost over?
I was a huge meta-gamer because I love strategy games to the umpteenth degree. I basically curved it myself because I DM. I always put myself in my Monster's shoes by looking at, "What does this monster know, and what does it want?" and I do that with my character now, "Am I stupid? Do I got muscles? Yeah, I'm gonna push that boulder down the hill at the enemy convoy"
I think I fall into the rules lawyer subclass, "The Bookkeeper" I like keeping track of game states, and bringing up rules that aren't known, sharing spell effects, or weapon effects. I don't ever argue if something isn't played RAW. Just as a DM myself know it's hard to have everything on hand or know every rule. So I just share what I can so no one has to waste time looking up things.
Also multiclassed into the power gamer subclass "Best Of The Worst" I like to find weird things to optimize just to see how good I can make something that is bad. But I try to not multiclass build with more than 2 classes and anything I actually play in a game, I make sure it has backstory reasons why the classes and abilities were taken.
For metagamers a tip and trust me on this it's *VERY* fun. Consider what your character knows. I once knew something about a module but my character would have presumed something else based on the information available at that time. He made a choice *I* as a player wouldn't because of the knowledge I had.
It lead to a very interesting side path that neither I nor the GM was expecting because of how the group built off the faulty information of the character and ended up being a lot of fun.
I was a bit of a spotlight hog in one of those "everyone else is a wallflower" games where it felt like even the DM was a wallflower. Pulling others into the spotlight to give them a chance to shine forces them to interact with the story/scene. They might just be new to the whole tabletop scene, so as a spotlight hog you should be trying to set up situations that the other PCs would naturally set up at so that the players will get used to stepping up without having to be provoked.
I was too, and also in a party that wanted to leave every room instantly without looking beyond what the DM described, nothing I seemed to do would make the others want to RP and interact more despite my repeatedly ending up a spotlight hog by being the one to check the bookshelves for hidden spell books, or look for secret doors and the checks resulting in many secret doors being found. Grant it for 2 of the 5 players it was their first game, but even with talking to them between games they just did not want to actually interact with the environment in the game.
The way I handle spotlight hogs is by finding out what they like about the game and ask them how we can get OTHERS in the game to like it too. Example: I had a spotlight hog who was REALLY into to the roleplaying aspect. We worked together with the idea that others weren't really as engaged and it would make the roleplaying even better for this player if others were also engaged. That alone made it to where the spotlight hog was working to SHARE the spotlight at that point.
You missed "the Wangrod" (a Matt Colville word) - i.e., the toxic player, who is a jerk to the rest of the table (the thief who pick-pockets his own party member; the character who starts killing NPCs the rest of the players are trying to socially interact with; the guy who goes off by himself, wakes the whole dungeon, and brings the entire dungeon down on his party "Leroy Jenkins" style, etc.). This is arguably as bad as or possibly even worse than the Cheater.
There's a 6th type - the Disruptor. He's the player who plays the game against the other players or despite the other players. Against the other players means to steal from party members, take party loot for himself, cast AoE spells not caring it will affect party members, when the party has a plan this player refuses to do the thing he was supposed to do, attack when the party is talking to the NPC. Despite the other players is similar to the Spotlight Stealer, but he's not really hogging the game. He's playing by himself. He'll leave the party to do his own exploring doing stuff by passing secret notes with the DM. When he learns important information he will never tell the party what he learns. When the party gets into a combat or has to deal with a trap he'll sit smugly because his character is not there. After a couple of rounds then he says he'll rejoin the party so he can pompously save them from their foolishness. If the combat goes badly he's the first to run away. Going badly can also mean he either lost a hit point or at best a quarter of his hit points. He does not help other party members retreat. He is likely not to tell the other players what his class is, his character's name, not even his race.
In my experience Rules Lawyers also call out bending or rule of cool in benefit of the party. Its not just in their favor. So everyone ends up not liking them. But yeah just make it clear during session rulings by the DM are final for the session.
The worst player is a DM who thinks optimization = no RP/story.
Our party is literally decked in powerful magical items we earned by being bold and yet our DM can still find a way to whoop our butts.
My Mystical Monk has a 27 AC, +8 to concentration saves and can stack disadvantage on all that and he still almost wiped out our party in Tyranny of Dragons. What are these soft DMs excuses?
The worst player: touches all the dices you have given with their cheetos covered greasy fingers
No court in the land would punish you for removing those fingers. Even Kyuss wouldn't perform an act so foul.
Or wipes their nose with their hands, and then roll the dice. Ugh. I hate those players. Also, they tend to be the ones who "forget" their dice too.
You don’t bring a separate dice bag of uncouth dice, just in case someone asks to borrow some? In the words of Wild Bill Hickcock…shouldn’t touch another man’s dice.
I am the power gamer… Though I make a cool character concept first, then make something wildly powerful with the concept I made (such as, say, an Eladrin bard with a sword that contains the soul of his great great Archfey grandfather, the build being a Hexblade 5/Swords Bard 6 with Darkness+Devil’s Sight+Elven Accuracy+Double Bladed Scimitar).
This lets the DMs I play with throw some crazy stuff at the party (which I can generally help the party deal with very well).
I’m also a Rules Lawyer, and I say stuff that goes in the party’s favor *and* bane (such as when my character I had played for about 2 years died, and the battle had ended which means they shouldn’t be able to be revived [RAW, in the specific OSR system], I just told everybody that they died fair and square, and that a med kit just shouldn’t be able to get used RAW).
Spotlight hogs really get my goat (as a DM and a player). One time I had a player who just didn’t know when to shut up. He was dominating the game and the other players complained to me that he wasn’t letting them have a chance to role play their PCs. To put a stop to this, I pulled him aside after a game session and had a chat with him. I explained to him that I understood that he was enthusiastic about the game, but at the same time, he needed to let the other players play the game too. After all, D&D is a team game, not a single player game. I also asked him to help me out by asking the other players questions to get them to engage more often. Thankfully it worked and I haven’t had any more problems with him.
then theres those players who put themself in every situation, even ones they shouldnt know of or be in, including crucial backstory ones for other players
we have an inner joke in our table that I'm the "rules f*g" as I'm the most knowledgeable on the rules in the game, but it's taken more as a fallback for the party and the DM as they have any doubts. and no. this isn't said in an insulting way.
I try really hard to get other party members to speak up and give input. Sometimes it feels like it is left to me to move the story forward. I am conflicted by this. I want others to participate more.
This sounds like an anti-spotlight hog
I know what you mean. I often ask myself if I'm too much of a spotlight hog, but my wife said I'm not.
It’s important to remember that for a significant subset of players, the thing they want most is “to have fun playing a game with friends,” and so being a spotlight hog is actually helpful.
Communication is the critical component to knowing if you’re a “bad” hog or a “good” hog.
For Rules Lawyers: I give each player one challenge token per game. If they disagree with a ruling I make, they can use the token and challenge me. They have one-minute to make their case. I will make my decision, and the matter is settled until after the game. At that point, I usually get an earful.
Hey there! Love your content and can't wait to see more :D
I'm a writer and narrative designer in the tabletop and video game industry and I've been thinking about revamping my channel to focus more on tabletop content (as that's what I've been doing freelance for - just worked on NeverEnding's Anansi's Tapestry of Lives Kickstarter) with a perspective from a DM who also writes and designs professionally.
I'd love to pick your brains or have a chat about creating TTRPG content for UA-cam as I'm trying to get advice on what/how to do it pretty much.
As a DM who rolls in the open and not behind the screen, players who hide rolls are a huge no-no at my table.
I prevent PowerGaming from happening by declaring no multi-class, a list of banned feats, and a list of race picks.
I feel called out. 💀 As the resident DM of my friend group, great video! I have encountered almost all of these people at some point for sure!
For Metagamers, I just likr to remind them, also as a player myself. E.g. "Remember: Your character doesn't know that.". That should work most of the time.
I used to DM a lot and I've usually made it clear when we get a new player that the rules are to assist my storytelling and the player's immersion. If the person has a problem with how I interpret a rule or game mechanic, he is free to speak to me about it after a session but I don't condone disruptive arguments during gameplay.
So what's your goal in DM'ing and your view of DnD? Do you run primarily a game with rules that has storytelling like an RPG, or a story that has some rules closer to a byo adventure book?
I find that the first lends itself to rules lawyers and power players. To them its multiplayer game. Where the second is more for RP storytelling players. I think expectation is incredibly important especially when getting new players.
If you're the former wouldn't it be best to just draft up a rule addendum to hand out ahead of time then? It avoids any complications and as long as you're consistent and fair and the rules lawyers will have nothing to lawyer.
If you're the latter, just saying that will keep both lawyers and power gamers from even wanting to join in my experience.
@@elliottparks8762 For me it's more about the storytelling. I played a lot of VTM and there were other times where I'd run games without any game mechanics at all.
I'll list house rules at the start of a campaign but I don't mind people having complaints about mistakes I made or the interpretation of specific rules.
I'm more than happy to listen to complaints after sessions but I won't allow a session to devolve into an argument or a debate on rules.
I've been DMing since the early 90s so there's not many rules I haven't heard and I know I don't interpret things exactly as other's do so I don't mind people pointing out problems they have with my rulings but, for the enjoyment of others, as well as myself, I don't like sessions getting out of hand.
@@Milocinia yeah, that's exactly the perfect way to handle it imo. Ty for being an open dm.
I have to give props to your delivery, even as I'm listening to this video while doing something else, your voice work and intonations keep me from zoning out of it and getting distracted
I'm a power gamer so I usually get around it by only playing healing/support characters. This way I don't ruin the game for everyone else and more enable my party to do more fun things! I also try and bake in a serious character flaw into my PC like for example my circle of stars druid has a wisdom of 22 and can heal with a single cure wounds for like 30 health. But he has an intelligence of 7. So I make him walk into obvious traps or get led on by people because he just is not smart enough to know any better! Plus I regularly make my character the butt of jokes because he's such an idiot so it prevents him from being the "I'm good at everything" hero.
My favorite meta-gaming that I’ve ever done was using Ice Knife against a monster that I knew was resistant to cold damage. I knew that the monster was resistant, but my character didn’t and I was playing my character!
The funny part was when I told the DM that after the session and he said, “I’d forgotten that they were resistant to cold.” So I got the full damage anyway!
I broke a meta gamer by straight up telling the entire group for every instance of meta gaming there will be a curse for that player. It only took one time. They never meta gamed again
I feel the worst when i wrongly apply some character meccanics, doing more than i should have done. For example when i used "Heart of the Storm" of my Sorcerer, and i COMPLETELY overloocked the range limtation, i was doing like 4 damage to every enemy on the board.
When i realised that, it was too late, but to feel better i streight up told the other players that i had done something wrong.
Truth right here, I still feel guilty about adding my ability modifier on an offhand attack last week. Probably inconsequential but you never know!
@Iacopo Menegatti take it as a Shonen anime arc where you spontaneously got more powerful with the power of emotions
To the cheaters. "Oh, we're cheating in this session? I guess I will too..." Then you railroad them with "questionable" calls and rolls. After session, you sit down with them and ask them if their going to cheat in the future.
Cody: “How should you handle cheaters? Kick ‘em the HELL out”
My legitimate reaction: “…Hell yeah”
As a DM don't show the whole battle map until you feel they do get to see the things. If monster's are still hidden don't confuse the meta-gamer with things they see. I don't play a meta-gamer if I am first level I make foolish mistakes that sometimes kills the party because a a newb you do that but as I level my character learns things. If I play a ranger and I have specialized in hunting trolls as I level I learn and therefore know what the basic troll stats are. I was in the military and as I progressed in rank and training, I learned where to expect ambushes, an adventure should also be able to make good decisions. So if 5ht lvl druid sees something blocking the road like a turned over wagon and chooses to to cast entangle in the tree line that's could be ideal for hiding an ambush. Or a caster who is a CN or even Evil decides to cast produce flame and start to hurl fire in like it was calling in Napalm to remove the foliage. Cantrips are cheap and easy.
There's a simple way to deal with such unsavory folks...
*Unsheaths sacrficial dagger.*
I have ASD and have a tendency to be a bit of a "rules lawyer", especially if I feel it leads to something unjust!
But as I grown older, my memory starts to fail me, so I’m not as bad as I used to be!
Funny, I have ASD and I find people who constantly argue with the DM insufferable.
@@DaDunge
I can do that as well, and my own "rule lawyering" is mostly if there's something I find unjust.
I fully recognize that the DM has to have room to manoeuvre within to make a game exiting.
So I don't argue over everything!
I think both your response and mine can be within typical traits of people with ASD.
At least if it's to such a degree that it's more than most other people.
@@gorillaguerillaDK yeah I can also from time to time bring up a rule but I try to remember to phrase it along the lines of "It's your call but I think RAW it's like this". Bringing up rules is not a problem really its when the DM makes a ruling and someone keeps arguing.
For Power Gamers, I limit what's available to use to official sources only and only those I have access to/have reviewed
For Rules lawyers, I listen to them and if what they say makes sense and won't break the game I consider it, but I'm firm that I'm the one who is in charge of the rules and will shoot down whatever I think will not help the game, official ruling or no.
For spotlight hogs or even when it's just wallflower players, I address the players directly to make sure everybody gets a say. Sometimes people are okay with one person taking a leadership role and if everyone is happy I let it be.
For metagamers, I don't allow them to take actions unless they have an in character explaination. I often change monster stats and weaknesses so that usually isn't an issue.
For Cheaters, all rolls must be visible to me and left on the table to be counted. If digitally players can only roll when I call for it, and for 'accident' rolls I just take whatever the d20 roll was and add proper modifiers, never allow a reroll.
For all of them though, I always try to talk to the problem player first. Most times that solves the problem.
Do I like to optimize? Hell yeah.
Does it feel good to have a 27% chance to crit for an average of 216 damage? Uh huh.
Is that the optimized, most effective tactic available for all situations? No, ew, who wants that? We care about fun, not usefulness.
I definitely was infected with power gaming skills after years playing with a group of them
But I think the difference that helps keep me apart from the typical Munchkin is intent
My intent behind building mechanically robust characters isn't to be badass; its to be the best support for a given role that my fellow companions can require.
If I'm making a support character I'm going Twilight Cleric who will stack auras of Temp Hp, real hp (on a bonus action for the rest of the right on a single spell slot) and mounted/armored for quick high ac combat medic transits.
Or my current Artificer who (upon realizing we were all full casters with almost no armor lol) went full battle turtle; heavy no spell buffed AC of 22, multitude of reaction abilities, flight and strength to evac fallen squishies and then heal them my Cure, teleportation to interpose this Armored Artificer between an oncoming big baddy and a half hp'd Wizlock or Barzard to prevent the inevitable. I've got mediocore damage and a considerably smaller list of spells compared to the rest of the party and my healing is quite middling (ever heal matters).
Its never really about Power Gaming for myself, its for the safety or success of others. I need no credit, I take no spotlight (with natural occasions as exception; I'm not a wallflower lol)
The screamer : Whenever they are dealt damage from at least 1 attack. They start panicing because they lost 3 hit points on a total of 58 and they're sure they're going to die.
I agree that cheaters shouldn't be on the list because it's just a given. Boot them. For my list, my #4 would be the Tantrum Thrower. They're the ones who pout and cross their arms, saying "I don't know why I even play" when you say "no" or try to reason with them when they throw out the most convoluted and ridiculous game plan. It's not even in the same plane of existence as a Matt Mercer "You can certainly try." It's just not going to happen, and the suggestion itself made you feel like you lost a few IQ points. But those people thought it was perfectly sound, and now they're pouting like a toddler, crossing their arms, and sitting away from you. They might even get up and leave the table to go play on their phone for a while because all you'll do is criticize them if they keep playing, and maybe they'll just go home instead. If they're really upset, they'll hop around and use their whiny voice.
For me, that Tantrum Thrower was also the Power Gamer AND was the Spotlight Hog. It was really bad.
This whole video breaks down into a very simple business principle: Don't hate the player, hate the behavior. Communicate, empathize both for the DM and players and work together to make a better game.
Maybe it's because what my brother always played but I hate the tragic backstory lonewolf character. The indifference and lack of trust just feels like they would rather be doing something else.
What about ‘Loot Hogs’? Players that abandon the encounter so that they can be the first to claim the loot. Once in possession they become a Gollum holding and controlling their precious prize and all other PCs better keep their hands off and their opinions to themselves.
I refuse to play with players like this. I personally think Loot Hogs are worse than Meta Gammers; at least that person is trying to synergies with the Party.
I admit I have the DM vs Player mentality as DM. But I am not toxic about it. I find the combat stress is helpful when the enemies are actually trying to kill the players
I'm surprised we didn't see like "The Constantly Distracted Player" that's never really at the session even when they're physically present. No matter how much you try to involve them, you can't because they don't know what's going on and haven't been paying attention to any of the context for their situation.
Hands down, the WORST
If you have one player that is all of these except the cheater?
The #1 spot goes to a player that is more than one of these.
A rules lawyer alone is almost as bad as a cheater, it’s like 1A & 1B.
I don’t really mind an optimized/power build, but mix that with meta-gaming, and telling other players what to do with their turns makes me want to just shut down a game.
Another bit of advice for dealing with the Spotlight Hog is to resolve their stuff at the appropriate moments. If that player was the first to get to a door to check it out then of course you resolve them checking for traps and lockpicking the door immediately. But if you've got a player who likes to run and bounce all over the map and wants to be involved in every little thing... make them wait. If they are the sort to go off and explore a hallway while the rest of the group is checking out a door but then they want to run back when that door finally gets opened, then wait to resolve what they find when the explore said hallway until *after* the group has entered that room and had a few moments to look around.
Power gamers: I have no problem with power gamers. Making characters who are good at combat is something players should do.
The unprepared. I don't mean inexperienced, I mean the player who's played before, plays a spellcaster and doesn't read their spell descriptions so they try and cast hellish rebuke as an action and then roll to hit
I think it always good for the DM to ask ho your character would know that before assuming meta gaming. You be surprised how many times players have a good in game reason or just go oh shoot your right nvm.
I had a habitual cheater in one of my sessions that was a close friend. After many "gentle" attempts to correct the behavior, the entire party had to sit down with her intervention style to discuss how to move the game forward in positive ways and get rid of bad habits moving forward. Props to my players for also discussing things they could do to get rid of their bad habits, so as to not make the cheater feel singled out.
IT DIDNT WORK.
She threw a $*%tfit and went on to drag every party members name through the mud to anyone who would listen, all the while claiming she did nothing wrong.
All this to say: great video, and heed the advice to deal with these problems as soon as you can, because when a player develops/shows signs of being multiple types on this list, especially the cheater, kick them the hell out!
It’s because of people like that I am a rules lawyer. Had similar cheating happen with a couple players out of a large group. Shortly after we didn’t have a group.
Players that get 10+ levels and still don’t know how their characters work.
The meta gaming you can get spells that allow you to see ahead or through walls so maybe incorporate that but put a complication in.
I feel like people who complain about Powergamers and "I read the Rules book" need to show what they mean.
I shouldnt have to beg and grovel for knowinf how to play my class. Unless it just cheese plays, screw cheese.
I would like to add: the bipolar player. An especially painful subsection of the disengaged player. One who becomes a spotlight hog when their dice are on fire, and when they start rolling poorly, they disengage and get silent, or get super, super upset. Basically, someone whose enjoyment is based off of the success of the dice rolls.
I'm a tad guilty of that one - my friends take the Mick out of me.
You really shouldn’t title it bipolar. Please pick a more inclusive title. Maybe the Hot & Cold Player?
@@taylorgamble1965 a Katy Perry player?
@@kayrupe125 sure, much better than stigmatizing a neurological disability. 🙂
@@taylorgamble1965 Feel free to title it what you want, hoss. Bipolar best captures it for me. And we prefer not to call it a disability.
I remember when my friends and I first got into D&D. I will admit I was probably a “meta gamer” but it was because I’ve played many strategy video games and none of them were very strategically inclined. I also came into the learning D&D with a VERY video game-y mindset so it took a while for me to be able to shut that off and separate player knowledge from character knowledge and let my friends learn battle field strategy
I became a bit of a power gamer after my DM TPK’d us our first 3 sessions in a row.
I genuinely didn't see #1 coming, I constantly forget people do that in TTRPG's with friends.
For the cheaters I approach a bit different. I always tell my players I don't care what they roll... They can roll nat20 every time if they so choose, as long as they are having fun. BUT there is a catch. Nat 1s in my games are also super fun and make for an interesting story. So if they wanna ruin the game for themselves, go right ahead... I'm going to be having fun either way
I don't think I've ever used a monster straight from the manual. They always have something added or changed just so "passive meta gaming" is impossible... just ran a werewolf that has electrical powers instead of the bite giving them lycanthropy it paralyzed them
Loved the callisto reference for Perfect Dark. Definitely great video for checking our own play styles. As both a player and a DM/GM, I'm always looking to improve my roleplaying
The player PvPer despite it not being that kind of game, the lone wolf that constantly has to be pulled into group activities and/or complains about not being in them, the butthole bc their character would do it players.......its tough to make just a top 5 to be sure. Just don't think I would put power gamer above these ones.
I really like that meta gamers were basically lumped with cheaters... Haha. But 5 is better than 4 in a title block.
Meta gamers basically cheat in roleplay and knowledge as compared to cheaters fudging dice. Both can ruin play.
I had a meta gaming group that would be split, but when a potential enemy popped up they immediately knew to start to group up.
This made a possible social interaction a combat sequence that scared away a lonely enemy.
Power gaming is literally taking the game seriously.
It's a session 0 issue. You either tell players that it's serious game where they have to try to actually win or that it's purely narrative or silly thing.
What can I do when a game I just joined has literally a holy barbarian paladin power gamer who is also a rules lawyer
Cody, great video…but you’re wrong. The worst players are the ones that are none of these. The ones who don’t know the rules, don’t know their character, don’t take notes, don’t know what’s going on in the game, and wouldn’t think to try to fudge a roll because they JUST. DON’T. CARE. Yeah, all of the above you listed are sins - ones we are all likely guilty of to some degree at some time in our gaming lives. But the players who have never done any of these…I’d take any one of the above over them. Why? Because they are redeemable, and *want* to play the game. That dude who asked the GM to make them a character that they then never read, and watch sportsball on their device while the party is a life-or-death battle with the BBEG? They are the worst.
Finally.....these lists of worst players and DMs are silly. Like you all those flaws are redeemable. But someone who doesn't know how use their shape change as a druid after 11 games is not.
Any time someone says the word "build" I know I'm going to have an ideological problem with them as a player
• the problem with the lonely Power Gamer is that, if you wanna make the game fun for them, you might have a TPK, as all other PCs will die. either we have a Powergaming party or a party with a PC that's just above the curve.
• having a player who you cab defer most questionable rulings to, or who can give you advice if you don't kniw what to do is a blessing; having a "rules for me, not for thee" cheater is a curse.
If you accuse someone of cheating be 110% sure they actually cheated please. It really hurts to be accused when you actually didn’t cheat you weren’t fudging those perception rolls you just had a + 7 and no one thought to check
For power gaming, this can happen as a surprise to the player. Specifically it was a surprise to me when I choose Lore Bard and took counterspell and Fireball - and I happened to obtain a broom of flying as well. We were playing AL so the DMs could do nothing to stop me. Didn't even mean to be super powerful, I just happened to fall into an extremely powerful build.
I'm running a twilight Cleric now which I choose because I thought it fit the setting - Wild beyond the Witchlight. The channel divinity breaks the game over its knee and I didn't realize that before I choose the class.
Not sure what to do about it. I'm trying to emphasize his fishing background over combat prowess - but we just did two encounters in a row where zero party members took damage.
I don't prefer the term "cheater". I prefer "dice fudger". I mean, come on. We've all had those sessions where the dice just aren't cooperating. You're completely ineffective in combat, you're blowing all your skill checks, and you're at the bottom of the initiative order every time. You're not having fun and you just want something to go *right* for a change. In that instance, sometimes I can see overruling a dice roll with your own result. It sucks to feel like you're not contributing.
100% i play a cleric5 fight dip 1 and i managed to get 25 BASE AC….. i was basicly our tank now however the DM Droped a shield of missiles i took and now i am rear player using ranged and shielding the party from missles allowing the ranger to bow the monsters past my range from shield… granting everyone a AC25. from ranged attacks
Im def a power gamer but I don't understand the power gamers who use homebrew content. I like to power game to see what I can do within the system I'm put in. Homebrew takes the fun out of it. But if a dm wants me to not power game (which hasn't happened yet because I play with seasoned veterans who are at best optimizers) then I'll make a fun gimic character who's really good at something useless (like being incredibly good at cooking)
as a powergamer in denial (im clean, when it comes to ebberon backgrounds now so getting better :D) ruleslawyer turned on demand RAW library and somebody in dire fear of being a spotlight hog (im playing a paladin, lets face it, its the class that does it the most i feel) i appriciate this video :D
how about a top 5 for the Best players too?
Being a DM myself I find very difficult not to lightly metagame when I play. If I see a monster that have resistance/immunity to fire do I use my fireball anyway and call "I know but my character doesn't"?
How can I not wast resources without bringing my knowledge to the table?
I'm typically the "most experienced" player at the tables I play at. I try really, really hard to not be a rules stickler when DMs are doing things on the fly, or maybe don't know the rules or mechanics as much or as readily as I do. The biggest thing I've tried to learn lately is to be the "anti-spotlight hog" that you mentioned. I have been making a point to urge other players to use their strengths (in-game and in-character) to help the party. "I think you're probably the best suited to lead us through this forest" or "maybe you could have a look around, you're pretty attentive". It's really fulfilling and honestly more fun to see others shine and get excited about the game/their character in those moments. And the game functions and flows better!
Metagamers: for planned encounters I tweak powers, abilities, stats, and spells to accommodate the particulars of the campaign/story that's being explored. Maybe the group is exploring a thick, dark forest full of spider webs and spiders, I'll add a clan of orcs suited for that terrain with freedom of movement capability to navigate and use the webs to suit them, giving them ability boosts in dex instead of str, and poison resist or immunity depending on group level. I'm matching a theme and mood for the story and keeping the players in wonderment at the world, hopefully. For random encounters I usually stick to the defaults in the monster manual, unless I have a better idea on the spot that fits, such as 3-5 wolves for forest terrain and instead use howling spiders with pack tactics instead (to go with the example above).
The way I justify it to players that have a problem with it, go to Google Images and search on the word 'dog' and tell me how many pictures show the exact same breed of dog to represent the animal 'dog'. There is variability to species, some are large, some are short, some are fast or slow, etc... monsters are just as variable, minus specific ones like tarrasques or banshees for instance. There are usually lore reasons why they are the way the are and for the most part I'll observe that.
Cheaters are kicked after a single second chance seems harsh, But then again ive never had (or atleast noticed) a cheater in my group. Seems like if they cheat in a game like dnd they might have bigger problems and need help instead of getting kicked out the group.
Is it cheating or spotlight hogging if one player keeps going to the DM privately to approve his plans first, lets the DM fudge on his behalf because "the DM makes the rules" and has to have his character have boons and "flaws" other players don't exactly like
Well, I just noticed I‘m every single one of them when I‘m a player.
That is exactly why (when I decided I want to play dnd with my friends) I am the DM most if the time. Then every problem that could arise from me being wayy to addicted to attention can just be refocused on me being the one that is creating a fun game for everyone and I‘m not in competiton with my friends.
Cheater aside, they are all amped up versions of good. Folks should know the rules, be keen to take part, be thinking out strategy. I think the trick is to ask them to "make it fun for everyone". So metagamer, put yourself in the wrong spot; rules lawyer, help if you are asked; spotlight hog, shine the light elsewhere.
Thank you SO much for this video! Another problem player that was technically covered by your "metagamer", is the player who reads the module along with the game, a week ahead, so that they know what's coming and what will happen. I liked your reference about how the "first time" experience only happens once. It's like watching a movie for the 2nd time. I have a player in my group that, after being asked at least once not to do so, has continued to do so. His actions and choices telegraph every time that he knows the story, the map, the motives... it's getting out of hand. It's just nice to know that others do not enjoy this play style either. I don't understand how that can be fun for some people. He doesn't gloat about his knowledge, so I don't think he's motivated by that. But others who are new to the game, are watching his actions and taking queues from him. So when he won't go into a room, they won't either because "there must be some reason he won't go in." It's time to call it out at the table.
The worst players i've had to deal with are
1. I had player who was constantly trying to screw over the other players by taking items and at times attacking npcs and the party
2. A player who was very indecisive, they didnt do much out of combat, and in combat they took forever to make their next move
Any suggestions on how to improve their gameplay?
For the first player, I had them get arrested because they were attacking npcs in a heavily guarded city. But I felt like that was very unfair towards the player and the party because they didnt want to go along with that plotline
For the second player, I usually would just remind them of the things they could do in combat until they settled on an action, but that could end up feeling like im suggesting exactly what they should do
This kind of gives me an idea of a kind of non-meta metagamer, where you play a scholarly type who has multiple tomes on reference. They don't necessarily know everything, but if a combat starts with an unfamiliar enemy, imagine them hurriedly flicking through their tomes trying to find a weakness as the other players hold it off. Some things would also be completely unknown and the scholar seeks to document them, adding their own additions to the in world scholarly literature.
I have the problem, that I become an unwanted rule lawyer at the table, when the GM is actually not prepared or doesn't know the rules.
Because he gives regulary advantage to players they don't possess. (Give them class features of other classes or even legendary weapons (self designed and.not aware that they possess legendary weapons stats and do not see the problem)
Or disadvantage to other players because he didn't know that their character had that skill, which would end a fight or a puzzle.
Or he even denies spells for example suggestion, because he doesn't like how the spell works and denies it regularly and say don't use this kind of spells, it distroys my game.
That makes it sometimes really hard to stay motivated as a player and triggers my inner rules lawyer.
How would you handle the situation?
I balance out the game with a quirky weak character if there is a power gamer at the table.
I have a few characters that are pseudo powergamey but that's mostly because I rolled like a god with their stats (one of my favourite characters for roleplay and combat, my half drow gloomstalker, has a dump stat of 12) and apparently I chose insane subclasses (gloomstalker which I chose because it sounded cool and had some slight underdark flavour) but even then they're only somewhat optimised because I love intelligence even if it's kinda rubbish for example my gloomstalker has 12 str, 20 dex, 13 con, 16 or 17 int, 19 wis and 16 or 17 cha (I don't have her character sheet on hand but that's with the half elf +2 moved to dex thanks to Tasha's and +1 in wis and cha because I wanted ranger stats and I kept charisma as a +1 because she's half drow even though girlie's lived in the forest with her half siblings basically her whole life so she's got high charisma but she's also more than happy to let someone else be the face of the party) she's basically a nerd who I've decided can read and write various languages but has poor pronunciation in most (common and elvish are fine because her siblings taught her and thieves' cant is fine because it's speaking in code rather than another language) because she learnt from books rather than someone who can speak the language I've also started role playing her with minor sun sensitivity because I wanted to make her a little less insane and some party members were complaining a bit that she was killing things too quickly (sharpshooter, dread ambusher, extra attack, probable advantage, Hunter's mark*, sneak attack from the one rogue level** which is 4d8 + 3d6* + 1d6** + 45 for an average 77 (53-101) damage assuming all sharpshooter hits and no crits and up to 157 damage (61-157, average 109) if everything crits) ironically I actually made her backstory first then rolled like a god and gave her stats according to the backstory (charisma was partly the half drow natural charisma and also because she totally has her older siblings wrapped around her little finger)
QUESTION: What about DM metagamers? When DM's conspire with one of the group to make sure the slant of the plot or fight go as intended. It's not fun for the other players when they realize this isn't for them and feels preordained, like the other characters don't matter.
Take you DM aside and tell them you feel like you are just spectators instead of players in a TTRPG game. Honestly the best way a player described railroading/having no agency to me.
Question: is it always the same player, or did you possibly misunderstand the DM attempting to give everyone “their time in the spotlight?”
The difference is subtle, and the DM’s ability plays a huge factor in how obvious it would look that that’s what’s happening, so a newer, less experienced DM might be trying and giving more attention to a single player because they react most often, and the DM is winging it.
Or it could be the DM is trying to slide into that players DMs and it’s a totally bad DM thing to be doing. Or that DM and player are close friends and they don’t care about the group. Or whatever. Thousands of ways to be a bad DM.
Nuance, is my point. I’d like more data please. Feel free to not.
@@demonzabrak a new DM, always the same player in spotlight and getting the rewards, rest of group has to sit there and watch, constantly. And DM keeps doing things to exclude the group and focus on the same one player. For some reason, didn't get the update until now. Thanks for commenting!
@@reddroche7447 Unfortunate. Hopefully you’ll find a good DM.
I recently adopted a new methodology I like for rules lawyering. Try not to interrupt more than twice a session. Save other cases for after the game. Write a note so if you forget, you can review your notes to remind yourself to discuss with the GM after the game. You might also want to consider only interrupting for big differences in outcomes. This does not mean you let the little stuff slide by forever, you just wait till after the game. It is also very helpful if you have page references ready when you bring up the case.
most of the power gamers I've played with were insanely dedicated role players too. they learned how the game works and you're gonna punish that?
power gamers are different from meta gamers who memorize enemy stats.