I'd propose there's a third type of person watching this video... Those who want to understand how far is too far, in practical terms, because they seek not to offend God (for anyone struggling with scrupulosity)
Elizabeth… I love this video! Fantastic insight and inspiration. Thank You so much for sharing your wisdom and your enthusiasm. Our bodies reveal who GOD is. Blessings on your day! 🙏🏻
Tim… I love this comment! Fantastic insight and inspiration. Thank You so much for sharing your wisdom and your enthusiasm. Our bodies reveal who GOD is. Blessings on your day! 🙏🏻
I love that you were really really specific and I think I agree with you on everything you said... Your enthusiasm is contagious too, I should check out the Olympics 😅
Thank you for this! Please do a video of what words to say at what stage, i.e. when it is appropriate to say “I love you” and what does that even mean (not simply I will your good…but in the context of a dating relationship)?
There's a third category of person watching this video: those of us who want to virtue signal in the comments section. Along those lines, then... my concern in beginning with the idea that the "marital embrace" - as the video references it - is "pleasure" which also "communicates" - and therefore the communication needs to be authentic - leaves open the possibility that this pleasure can be accessed in those circumstances when authentic communication is not prioritized. For example, Catholic actors and actresses are not considered to be "bearing false witness" for saying things that are untrue when reciting the lines of a play. If our chastity is based primarily in the idea of "authentic communication," then the argument, "but this was for a(n adult) film" follows from that.
My personal discipline I use to change my heart and pray is asking myself: “do I want to be the kind of person to whom things are more important than people? What’s more important to me, their (opposite sex’s) body or them as a person, or what am I pursuing in them, their body or their person?” This is effective to reach the part of the deep and pure part of the heart which doesn’t want to use another person as objects.
I am definitely the second type of person. I love my girlfriend a lot but I know that my heart is impure and I want to set the kind of barriers that don't let those impure desires out. From there, I can solve the problems within my heart.
Kissing, hugging and holding hands are very common among friends and family in my culture. You just know if your kiss is just about greeting or not. Simply notice your motives.
good discussion, but the ending rule of thumb is a bit vague and subjective. Trusting in our own feelings is not always the best strategy for navigating the objective question of how far is too far, especially when passions are more likely to override reason in the time of temptation. A good objective rule of thumb is probably that everyone's underwear should stay on until you are married = pre-marital genital manipulation is always crossing the line, constituting grave matter that if deliberately engaged in would be mortal sin. Otherwise, yes, the best approach before that point is to consider subjectively what you are communicating and whether it is appropriate, and whether the rational analysis matches the emotional sensations being experienced.
Correction* - If you’ve made it to the point of even contemplating to remove any article of clothing, you’re now crossing a line… if you’re down to the underwear - you’re about a mile past ‘the boundary line’
@@Prohortico well yes that is the ideal for avoiding the occasion of sin. But what I am saying is we need to have clear in our head that the sin here we are trying to avoid is sexual contact before marriage. We can't just say "you know where the line is if you think about it this way." Because no, when people are in the heat of passion, the rational mind fails in the face of hormones, and starts to contemplate whether the line is just a suggestion, or how far beyond the line is actually permissible, etc. etc. If it is left to vague ideals and subjectivity then it is way too easy for our own sinful desires to form excuses and get us into dangerous territory. And then we just feel guilty for having crossed that line, but are likely to repeat the same scenario with a subjective standard that will likely be crossed once again. Rather it has to be clearly understood that the sinful activity is "sexual contact outside of marriage." So that we can then apply further subjective judgments and form strategies about practical methods that would be best for avoiding the occasion of that sin, that are appropriate in the context of our human relationship with this person I am sexually attracted to, and who is also sexually attracted to me, with whom that desire will eventually be consummated, but not in X place at Y time because it would be a sin to have sexual contact before marriage, and that is why I'm only going to stay one hour, or I'm going to bring another couple, or I'm going to keep my jacket on no matter what, etc.
@@MrColinwith1L I see your intentions are good, but that was one heck of a word salad. I’ve been married 15 years, have 5 kids, and my wife and I were both virgins upon marriage… we still have to practice chastity during certain periods of our marriage, and that ‘line’ looks much different as a married couple than prior to marriage- so yes, there is SOME subjectivity involved. But unclear boundaries? No way! Let’s make this simple for anyone unmarried reading… here’s my lines that shouldn’t be crossed prior to marriage. No tongue… do so at your own peril… no touching parts you wouldn’t want your grandma seeing you touch… However, each couple does have to determine for themselves what is appropriate as far as having alone time together etc. My wife and I were fine with being alone and watching movies together etc prior to marriage, but we both knew nothing would EVER happen. I wouldn’t recommend that for all couples, if there’s even a question about whether or not they can do it, they probably shouldn’t… Anyway, we could go on and on! Are you married?
@@Prohortico I am married, I have 2 daughters. I would not simply tell them keep your underwear on, and send them off to prom. That is not my point here at all. I am simply saying that in catechism on this topic, we have to fence off certain categories and make these boundaries clear, because people are not always rational when left up to their own subjectivity. Especially when they are asking "How far is too far?" It is not enough to tell such people to use their most conscientious judgment about what marriage is for, and then they will know how far is too far. No, they have to know where the clear lines are. One big red line should be drawn at "keep the underwear on." Perhaps another red line can then be drawn at "keep the clothes on so the underwear will stay on." And then perhaps other lines at things like "never use tongue" or "never touch her butt/shoulder/bra strap/etc." People who are more conscientious will observe all these as part of making good decisions and avoiding the occasion of sin. But those people are not where the problem lies. The problem is that other people will barely have paid attention in 8th grade catechism class, if they ever went at all, and in HS their boyfriend will tell them oral or anal sex is not a sin, because its not technically sex. And they will say that sounds logical. Because they were taught only to use your best subjective judgment. They never heard that there are clear lines for what can never be permissible. Such as: "keep your underwear on" being a good first principle for thinking through whether this behavior is a grave sin. The operative logic being: If the underwear is coming off, then it is already a grave sin, in every circumstance except perhaps medical emergency. People who understand that concretely can then readily make the subjective judgment that perhaps even all the clothes should stay on, because one thing might lead to another. So I am not saying let us be more permissive in where the line should be. Rather, I am saying we have to have the proper objective framework before we can make proper subjective judgments. Which must begin with understanding that sexual contact before marriage is the grave sin we are trying to avoid at all costs. And that other things we might abstain from are steps that protect us from ever reaching that point.
I am also a Catholic therapist and I watch a lot of your videos. Do you have any books you would recommend on working with couples, specifically in a Christian counseling context? I would love more training on this.
I see you haven’t received any response to this question- although I’m not a therapist, “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West is great for couples.
The explanation about the meaning of the touch also explain the difficulty experienced by those with a troubled relationship history to develop serious commitment.
Fr.Ripperger suggest one doesn't even hold hands until one is engaged. I forget exactly how he put it put it but holding hands released a sort of connection hormone in the brain. And if there is a breakup the breakup is harder with those that have been touching each other, so he suggest one waits until one is engaged to hold hands.
But even spending time and getting to know someone creates a connection, so trying to completely avoid that is necessary. Breakups will always be tough, no matter how chaste and strict you are.
@@CatholicBaseball8I’d like to see that video from Fr. Ripperger. My honest opinion as one who’s been married 15 years now with 5 kids, and survived 2 previous relationships prior to meeting my wife. Hand holding is an integral part of the dating stage that is a beautiful part of courtship and is a small token of affection that shows you care to continue to grow the relationship. Small kisses, prior to engagement if the couple is committed to seriously discerning marriage together could be ok too, but intimate kissing that leads to arousal needs to be avoided until marriage… My wife and I are very pleased to know we were both virgins when we made our vows, and any minor intimacy I had in previous relationships with other women is not regretted, if we had been much too physical, then yes. I remember a friend from college came to my house with a girlfriend- and he had his hand in her back jeans pocket. After they left, my mom asked how long they’ve been sleeping together…. I didn’t even notice! I was too innocent! As a married man, I get it. It’s a massive leap to go from holding hands to placing hands elsewhere…
Oxytocin, it's a normal and healthy hormone that is created from all sorts of physical touch. It's not some magic spell that binds your souls or fills you with lust. The worst heartbreak I ever experienced was for someone I never even touched.. meanwhile I've had other people's tongue in my mouth and been fine when it ended.
If I knew it wasn’t going to last, I wouldn’t even want to bother going on a date with someone in the first place and definitely wouldn’t want to kiss them. So although that’s an excellent point, you can reason yourself out of doing anything this way.
I don’t think you should be doing the tongue thing with anyone other than your husband, just because when u get to that point u trigger the man in ways that would not honor him. I think we should date once we are ready to marry not before and the engagement should not be longer than a year. I have heard of people say I have dated this person for 7 years. If u weren’t ready for commitment why even put your self in that situation. That’s just my opinion
The Catholic Church often engages in a kind of limbo morality (how low can you go). As you intimated there are limbo Catholics out there as well. I certainly support the idea that we should set hard boundaries on the moral life, but what I feel we do not do enough of as a Church is to say something like, "That is the bottom line, but look up and see how high you can go!" You do this when you use the metaphor of an Olympic podium, but I would challenge you, as a creative person, to come up with more ways to illustrate this reality. As you say, kissing causes arousal. As a man, I can tell you that arousal is far easier for men than for women. As a result I am not sure it is healthy for men to be constantly putting themselves into arousal prior to marriage. If you have any further thoughts on this or anything I have said I would love to hear them.
"Lying with your body" is a backwards concept. Our body has to be consciously controlled to make it behave other than it wants. If someone's interpretation of your body isn't matching up with your intentions, it's a sign that they're understanding of your body is wrong, not that your body should conform to their expectations.
Heaven has way better men, women, material comforts and sexual pleasures than this world. And way more time to enjoy them. There is just no comparison. And you don't need to go to work when you're in heaven. For example, imagine you had 800 years to travel this planet, meet different people and do what you wanted without any financial worries. What would your reaction be when your friend brags to you that they travelled the planet for 20 years? Can you imagine having a million years in heaven in a much bigger world? But the catch is that it is going to take work to get into heaven. Self-restraint, self-discipline and adherence to sexual morality in this life will go a long way. Not all people will get into heaven. The pleasures of this world is all they'll know for a very long time. Until they are able to make it to heaven in a future birth. Heaven is like applying to medical school. Even students with poor grades i.e. sinful past are free to apply by dedicating the rest of their life to Christ but acceptance is not guaranteed.
I think that starting off this video with an accusation is a slippery and dishonest stunt. "What you can get away with" is nothing. It doesn't make sense. Either something is a sin, or it is not a sin. Treating something that someone wants to do, which is not a sin as "getting away with it" is just a tacit admission that you think that any and all physical intimacy(from a hug to sex) is morally suspicious. It's not, you just have a puritan mindset that promotes the idea that the physical body is a source of evil. The fact that people are looking for moral guidance at all should show that they care about doing the right thing; although why they would come here I don't know. Positioning yourself as a teacher only to shame people is irresponsible and immoral.
I'd propose there's a third type of person watching this video... Those who want to understand how far is too far, in practical terms, because they seek not to offend God (for anyone struggling with scrupulosity)
Amen!
Yes!! This
Thank you for this. My 17 yr old daughter just started dating and this is a great video to share with her.
Elizabeth, that was a terrific explanation. Perfectly said......and you are delightful to listen to! Keep going....full steam ahead.
We must protect this woman at all costs!
Thank you for this ❤
Just like the need to protect my vagina 🤭
Elizabeth… I love this video! Fantastic insight and inspiration. Thank You so much for sharing your wisdom and your enthusiasm. Our bodies reveal who GOD is. Blessings on your day! 🙏🏻
Tim… I love this comment! Fantastic insight and inspiration. Thank You so much for sharing your wisdom and your enthusiasm. Our bodies reveal who GOD is. Blessings on your day! 🙏🏻
I love that you were really really specific and I think I agree with you on everything you said...
Your enthusiasm is contagious too, I should check out the Olympics 😅
This video was so beautiful 🥺 thank you for sharing!
Thank you Sista, God bless you and the team. 🙂🙏🏼❤️
Thank you for sharing!
Thank you for this! Please do a video of what words to say at what stage, i.e. when it is appropriate to say “I love you” and what does that even mean (not simply I will your good…but in the context of a dating relationship)?
There's a third category of person watching this video: those of us who want to virtue signal in the comments section.
Along those lines, then... my concern in beginning with the idea that the "marital embrace" - as the video references it - is "pleasure" which also "communicates" - and therefore the communication needs to be authentic - leaves open the possibility that this pleasure can be accessed in those circumstances when authentic communication is not prioritized. For example, Catholic actors and actresses are not considered to be "bearing false witness" for saying things that are untrue when reciting the lines of a play. If our chastity is based primarily in the idea of "authentic communication," then the argument, "but this was for a(n adult) film" follows from that.
My personal discipline I use to change my heart and pray is asking myself: “do I want to be the kind of person to whom things are more important than people? What’s more important to me, their (opposite sex’s) body or them as a person, or what am I pursuing in them, their body or their person?”
This is effective to reach the part of the deep and pure part of the heart which doesn’t want to use another person as objects.
How about how does this affect their salvation?
I am definitely the second type of person. I love my girlfriend a lot but I know that my heart is impure and I want to set the kind of barriers that don't let those impure desires out. From there, I can solve the problems within my heart.
Thank you! I need as much advice as I can get!❤💕
Kissing, hugging and holding hands are very common among friends and family in my culture. You just know if your kiss is just about greeting or not. Simply notice your motives.
good discussion, but the ending rule of thumb is a bit vague and subjective. Trusting in our own feelings is not always the best strategy for navigating the objective question of how far is too far, especially when passions are more likely to override reason in the time of temptation. A good objective rule of thumb is probably that everyone's underwear should stay on until you are married = pre-marital genital manipulation is always crossing the line, constituting grave matter that if deliberately engaged in would be mortal sin.
Otherwise, yes, the best approach before that point is to consider subjectively what you are communicating and whether it is appropriate, and whether the rational analysis matches the emotional sensations being experienced.
Actually everyone's clothes should stay on.
Correction* - If you’ve made it to the point of even contemplating to remove any article of clothing, you’re now crossing a line… if you’re down to the underwear - you’re about a mile past ‘the boundary line’
@@Prohortico well yes that is the ideal for avoiding the occasion of sin. But what I am saying is we need to have clear in our head that the sin here we are trying to avoid is sexual contact before marriage. We can't just say "you know where the line is if you think about it this way." Because no, when people are in the heat of passion, the rational mind fails in the face of hormones, and starts to contemplate whether the line is just a suggestion, or how far beyond the line is actually permissible, etc. etc. If it is left to vague ideals and subjectivity then it is way too easy for our own sinful desires to form excuses and get us into dangerous territory. And then we just feel guilty for having crossed that line, but are likely to repeat the same scenario with a subjective standard that will likely be crossed once again.
Rather it has to be clearly understood that the sinful activity is "sexual contact outside of marriage." So that we can then apply further subjective judgments and form strategies about practical methods that would be best for avoiding the occasion of that sin, that are appropriate in the context of our human relationship with this person I am sexually attracted to, and who is also sexually attracted to me, with whom that desire will eventually be consummated, but not in X place at Y time because it would be a sin to have sexual contact before marriage, and that is why I'm only going to stay one hour, or I'm going to bring another couple, or I'm going to keep my jacket on no matter what, etc.
@@MrColinwith1L I see your intentions are good, but that was one heck of a word salad.
I’ve been married 15 years, have 5 kids, and my wife and I were both virgins upon marriage… we still have to practice chastity during certain periods of our marriage, and that ‘line’ looks much different as a married couple than prior to marriage- so yes, there is SOME subjectivity involved.
But unclear boundaries? No way! Let’s make this simple for anyone unmarried reading… here’s my lines that shouldn’t be crossed prior to marriage. No tongue… do so at your own peril… no touching parts you wouldn’t want your grandma seeing you touch…
However, each couple does have to determine for themselves what is appropriate as far as having alone time together etc.
My wife and I were fine with being alone and watching movies together etc prior to marriage, but we both knew nothing would EVER happen. I wouldn’t recommend that for all couples, if there’s even a question about whether or not they can do it, they probably shouldn’t…
Anyway, we could go on and on!
Are you married?
@@Prohortico I am married, I have 2 daughters. I would not simply tell them keep your underwear on, and send them off to prom. That is not my point here at all.
I am simply saying that in catechism on this topic, we have to fence off certain categories and make these boundaries clear, because people are not always rational when left up to their own subjectivity. Especially when they are asking "How far is too far?" It is not enough to tell such people to use their most conscientious judgment about what marriage is for, and then they will know how far is too far. No, they have to know where the clear lines are. One big red line should be drawn at "keep the underwear on." Perhaps another red line can then be drawn at "keep the clothes on so the underwear will stay on." And then perhaps other lines at things like "never use tongue" or "never touch her butt/shoulder/bra strap/etc."
People who are more conscientious will observe all these as part of making good decisions and avoiding the occasion of sin. But those people are not where the problem lies. The problem is that other people will barely have paid attention in 8th grade catechism class, if they ever went at all, and in HS their boyfriend will tell them oral or anal sex is not a sin, because its not technically sex. And they will say that sounds logical. Because they were taught only to use your best subjective judgment. They never heard that there are clear lines for what can never be permissible. Such as: "keep your underwear on" being a good first principle for thinking through whether this behavior is a grave sin. The operative logic being: If the underwear is coming off, then it is already a grave sin, in every circumstance except perhaps medical emergency. People who understand that concretely can then readily make the subjective judgment that perhaps even all the clothes should stay on, because one thing might lead to another.
So I am not saying let us be more permissive in where the line should be. Rather, I am saying we have to have the proper objective framework before we can make proper subjective judgments. Which must begin with understanding that sexual contact before marriage is the grave sin we are trying to avoid at all costs. And that other things we might abstain from are steps that protect us from ever reaching that point.
Thank You JESUS MY LOVE FOR THIS VIDEO 😇
Do you love Jesus 😉
That's some great advice
Thank you for watching!
I am also a Catholic therapist and I watch a lot of your videos. Do you have any books you would recommend on working with couples, specifically in a Christian counseling context? I would love more training on this.
I see you haven’t received any response to this question- although I’m not a therapist, “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West is great for couples.
I like your answer but at the same time most guys just need to hear how far is too far lol
Dont have sex. Sex is too far
Also, be so in tune with you body so that you know when too far is too far
Forgot to mention the sin of premarital eye contact. 😂
Very grave sin indeed. 😉
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 when u make eye contact with your crush and picture your wedding together
Very well said 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Good job 👍👍👍👍👍👍
Imagine if there was an Olympic event where couples abstained and whoever held the line the best won!
you mean what Catholics do 😂
I really like this channel, its no too much not too much like some Christian couples but nice you know
We're glad you're enjoying it! We encourage you to keep going deeper into the Theology of the Body.
Thank you! Very helpful... 🤗
Excellent…simply broken down! Thank you so much!
The explanation about the meaning of the touch also explain the difficulty experienced by those with a troubled relationship history to develop serious commitment.
The meaning of touch is what people mean for it to mean.
It's not a one size fits all idea.
Fr.Ripperger suggest one doesn't even hold hands until one is engaged. I forget exactly how he put it put it but holding hands released a sort of connection hormone in the brain. And if there is a breakup the breakup is harder with those that have been touching each other, so he suggest one waits until one is engaged to hold hands.
But even spending time and getting to know someone creates a connection, so trying to completely avoid that is necessary. Breakups will always be tough, no matter how chaste and strict you are.
@@Seethi_C I still think there is a difference. getting to someone can be a friendship, but touching would be more intimate.
@@CatholicBaseball8I’d like to see that video from Fr. Ripperger.
My honest opinion as one who’s been married 15 years now with 5 kids, and survived 2 previous relationships prior to meeting my wife.
Hand holding is an integral part of the dating stage that is a beautiful part of courtship and is a small token of affection that shows you care to continue to grow the relationship. Small kisses, prior to engagement if the couple is committed to seriously discerning marriage together could be ok too, but intimate kissing that leads to arousal needs to be avoided until marriage…
My wife and I are very pleased to know we were both virgins when we made our vows, and any minor intimacy I had in previous relationships with other women is not regretted, if we had been much too physical, then yes.
I remember a friend from college came to my house with a girlfriend- and he had his hand in her back jeans pocket. After they left, my mom asked how long they’ve been sleeping together…. I didn’t even notice!
I was too innocent!
As a married man, I get it. It’s a massive leap to go from holding hands to placing hands elsewhere…
Oxytocin, it's a normal and healthy hormone that is created from all sorts of physical touch.
It's not some magic spell that binds your souls or fills you with lust.
The worst heartbreak I ever experienced was for someone I never even touched.. meanwhile I've had other people's tongue in my mouth and been fine when it ended.
@@Grokford well that may be on you, but not so with the women, women bond more from physical touch.
If I knew it wasn’t going to last, I wouldn’t even want to bother going on a date with someone in the first place and definitely wouldn’t want to kiss them. So although that’s an excellent point, you can reason yourself out of doing anything this way.
Well that's your preference.
But that's not how other people feel.
@@Grokford Yes, that’s how personal opinions work : ). You’ve got yours and I’ve got mine.
I don’t think you should be doing the tongue thing with anyone other than your husband, just because when u get to that point u trigger the man in ways that would not honor him. I think we should date once we are ready to marry not before and the engagement should not be longer than a year. I have heard of people say I have dated this person for 7 years. If u weren’t ready for commitment why even put your self in that situation. That’s just my opinion
I totally agree with you!
The Catholic Church often engages in a kind of limbo morality (how low can you go). As you intimated there are limbo Catholics out there as well. I certainly support the idea that we should set hard boundaries on the moral life, but what I feel we do not do enough of as a Church is to say something like, "That is the bottom line, but look up and see how high you can go!" You do this when you use the metaphor of an Olympic podium, but I would challenge you, as a creative person, to come up with more ways to illustrate this reality.
As you say, kissing causes arousal. As a man, I can tell you that arousal is far easier for men than for women. As a result I am not sure it is healthy for men to be constantly putting themselves into arousal prior to marriage. If you have any further thoughts on this or anything I have said I would love to hear them.
One thing to keep in mind though is that physical arousal, while related to sexual desire, is not equivalent to it.
Arousal is a physical response and doesn’t necessarily correspond to the will.
Is this a discussion if you’re the only one talking ?
Perfect!
Ahh when those places are touched you are saying I am not going anywhere
Those sacrifices were worth that end. Amen
Thanks
Lying with your body. , How can I love well. How can I use my body to glorify God. Amen
"Lying with your body" is a backwards concept.
Our body has to be consciously controlled to make it behave other than it wants.
If someone's interpretation of your body isn't matching up with your intentions, it's a sign that they're understanding of your body is wrong, not that your body should conform to their expectations.
Are you going to be speaking to me whilst I engage in sexual activity? I’m so lost! Explain
What state are we in and what am I trying to communicate
WAIT! A real life Olympian?
You have no idea, other than what you think! Should I explain?
Guess what…? I hugged a woman
Heaven has way better men, women, material comforts and sexual pleasures than this world. And way more time to enjoy them. There is just no comparison. And you don't need to go to work when you're in heaven. For example, imagine you had 800 years to travel this planet, meet different people and do what you wanted without any financial worries. What would your reaction be when your friend brags to you that they travelled the planet for 20 years? Can you imagine having a million years in heaven in a much bigger world? But the catch is that it is going to take work to get into heaven. Self-restraint, self-discipline and adherence to sexual morality in this life will go a long way. Not all people will get into heaven. The pleasures of this world is all they'll know for a very long time. Until they are able to make it to heaven in a future birth. Heaven is like applying to medical school. Even students with poor grades i.e. sinful past are free to apply by dedicating the rest of their life to Christ but acceptance is not guaranteed.
The Lord does not even mention sex between the unmarried. So why be troubled with another burden?
Something excellent takes sacrifice.
I think that starting off this video with an accusation is a slippery and dishonest stunt.
"What you can get away with" is nothing. It doesn't make sense.
Either something is a sin, or it is not a sin.
Treating something that someone wants to do, which is not a sin as "getting away with it" is just a tacit admission that you think that any and all physical intimacy(from a hug to sex) is morally suspicious.
It's not, you just have a puritan mindset that promotes the idea that the physical body is a source of evil.
The fact that people are looking for moral guidance at all should show that they care about doing the right thing;
although why they would come here I don't know.
Positioning yourself as a teacher only to shame people is irresponsible and immoral.
A bit cringy and silly at the same time.
No way in hell you’re going to heaven
Get it
No kissing period. She is wrong.
That's your opinion.