Research links, timestamps, and more in the description as always! To reduce potential for confusion, here's a few more notes that didn't make it into the video: 1. "So you're disagreeing with Dr. Mike?" Not necessarily. He's speaking to bodybuilders and we're speaking to rock climbers. Very different athletes. If you watch the video till the end you'll see that (the "hybrid athlete" section). 2. "So you're saying if I don't need deloads, I'm not training hard enough?" Nope, we are not saying that! That is something some coaches and athletes will say, but as usual black and white statements don't tend to hold up in all circumstances. It is possible some climbers can train for long periods, possibly even indefinitely, without ever needing a deload week because intuitive/reactive fatigue management is a thing. However, in our opinion, many climbers aren't experienced/conscientious enough to program their training and manage fatigue at that level. 3. "So you're saying if I take a deload week every month I'm dumb?" Not at all! This video points out some potential pitfalls of frequent deloads in certain situations. Regardless, you can program your training and manage fatigue however you see fit. As we point out, individualized deload schedules are probably ideal, but they are not mandatory. 4. "So you're saying if I don't do deloads I'll overtrain and get injured?" Nope, not necessarily, because again: there are other ways to manage fatigue. However, we do see a lot of chronic injuries that likely result from improper training load long-term, and deloads are a simple strategy to address that. 5. "So you're saying if I do deloads I won't get injured?" No, you can definitely still get injured by being beligerant with training tools, programming, and recovery inhibitors. Deload weeks are not a complete or even proven solution for preventing injuries, though logically they can do so to some extent. 6. "So you're saying I'm not progressing because I'm not doing deload weeks?" Not necessarily. While too much training load can lead to plateaus, it's also quite common for climbers to plateau because they're not doing enough. If you don't know whether you're undertraining or overtraining, you need to do examine and experiment with your programming (and/or talk to a coach to save some time).
sometimes (approx once every 3 months) i just feel a bit more pain than usual, more inflammation, i just take 5-6 days full rest doing nothing but some stretch. i make sure to eat well and sleep well. it dosnt cause weight gain, i dont loose strenght.. and just comeback way stronger than before the little break.
As a recreational boulderer, I just do reactive deloads when I got a bit too much into climbing again to the point where I feel my body hurting(too much, in the wrong way). Basically deloads for me are a way to remind myself that while my motivation sometimes is, my body deffo isn't 15 anymore and getting closer to 2 decades of desk work just left a mark on me.
It's perhaps worthwhile to mention that older athletes (i.e. 40+) can benefit from more frequent deloads, according Tom Randall. Tom suggests 2 weeks on, one week deload for climbers approaching 50.
It depends on so many factors! How hard are they training? What's their athletic background? What type of climbing are they doing? What type of deload are they doing? I think it's important to remember that deloads, while a good tool, are definitely not *strictly* necessary for everyone or even necessary-at-specific-intervals. So it's useful to have general guidelines and suggestions for deloading, and it's certainly logical that middle-aged climbers will take longer to recover than teenagers, but the main thing we want to avoid is making people think that a specific deload schedule is the ultimate fix for all training and recovery woes. There are so many ways to manage fatigue and maintain progression in a skill sport like climbing; deloads are just one strategy. Not that you or Tom were implying anything to the contrary, this is mostly just FYI for anyone browsing the comments :) -Emile
Research links, timestamps, and more in the description as always! To reduce potential for confusion, here's a few more notes that didn't make it into the video: 1. "So you're disagreeing with Dr. Mike?" Not necessarily. He's speaking to bodybuilders and we're speaking to rock climbers. Very different athletes. If you watch the video till the end you'll see that (the "hybrid athlete" section). 2. "So you're saying if I don't need deloads, I'm not training hard enough?" Nope, we are not saying that! That is something some coaches and athletes will say, but as usual black and white statements don't tend to hold up in all circumstances. It is possible some climbers can train for long periods, possibly even indefinitely, without ever needing a deload week because intuitive/reactive fatigue management is a thing. However, in our opinion, many climbers aren't experienced/conscientious enough to program their training and manage fatigue at that level. 3. "So you're saying if I take a deload week every month I'm dumb?" Not at all! This video points out some potential pitfalls of frequent deloads in certain situations. Regardless, you can program your training and manage fatigue however you see fit. As we point out, individualized deload schedules are probably ideal, but they are not mandatory. 4. "So you're saying if I don't do deloads I'll overtrain and get injured?" Nope, not necessarily, because again: there are other ways to manage fatigue. However, we do see a lot of chronic injuries that likely result from improper training load long-term, and deloads are a simple strategy to address that. 5. "So you're saying if I do deloads I won't get injured?" No, you can definitely still get injured by being beligerant with training tools, programming, and recovery inhibitors. Deload weeks are not a complete or even proven solution for preventing injuries, though logically they can do so to some extent. 6. "So you're saying I'm not progressing because I'm not doing deload weeks?" Not necessarily. While too much training load can lead to plateaus, it's also quite common for climbers to plateau because they're not doing enough. If you don't know whether you're undertraining or overtraining, you need to do examine and experiment with your programming (and/or talk to a coach to save some time).
Thank you for referencing Dr. Mike @RenaissancePeriodization ! Dr. Mike is an incredible teacher and resource, even if you are not training for hypertrophy :)
It's kinda crazy how fatigue can creep up and then just destroy you. Last week I was hitting huge PRs on multiple grips and projecting higher grades than I could ever touch before, and this week I'm sick as a dog, sleeping 12+ hours a day. The mistake: I lost sleep last week, kept training like I was sleeping normally, and climbed harder than I should have. Prior to this point I had taken longer rest periods every 2 months or so, but that was by feel, and this time I barely noticed a difference in my strength and fatigue levels. It is very hard to be mindful of fatigue!
Life has a habit of getting in the way of our "optimal training" goals ;). Fatigue and load management are definitely tricky skills to learn, which is why I feel like it's hard to find good instruction about it online. A lot of it seems to come from anecdotes about peoples' personal trial and error. If only we had more conclusive data about fatigue mechanisms! -Emile
a colab with Dr. Mike would be soo cool. Even if he work mainly with powerlifter and bodybuilder, he got a lot of insight on many subject and worked with athlete from many discipline :)
It's always a pleasure to watch your channel! As a female, I've had to accept that a 3/1 schedule works best for my body. That one week is both proactive and reactive, I guess 😅
Great video! You make a couple of good points on both sides. Something I've been thinking about is how to account for different levels of general activity during the day when deciding what to do training wise. I've been combining climbing with a job that at times is fairly physically demanding, but at other times involves long driving or sitting/standing at a desk. Sometimes during the active periods I can feel that my body needs a bit more rest, but generally it seems that after a few days or weeks my body just adapts to the new amount of energy it needs to spend. My worry is that I'll end up accumulating damage to the connective tissue, but so far I've been mostly fine.
Are the lines at 6:10 meant as distributions or functions for strength loss given type-damage and time? If functions, then 1. why do they start low? Should it not be monotonically decreasing? 2. if there are two lines of the same colour, are they the best cast and worst case? If they are not functions of your path to recovery, but distributions of when to expect recovery, why are there two yellow and two green lines? 😕
I wanted to support the (best on YT) channel while further optimizing my climbing, so I went to Tindeq. Turns out they are based in Norway where I live! Thanks for showing me an awesome local company that I somehow have missed before. @HoopersBeta Is the url discount-link broken to Tindeq? There is a "?ref=1003" at the ending that should perhaps be part of the link? I will wait to buy the V-rings and Progressor until I see if the url should be fixed. :)
Hey! The graph is meant as a simple visual aid; nothing too scientific or precise. The lines show distributions. So most strength loss due to peripheral fatigue seems to dissipate within a few hours, muscle damage usually takes longer (sometimes a day or a few days), etc. I probably should have shaded in the area under the red and orange lines too to make it clear that they’re all distributions. The two lines of “muscle damage” and “connective tissue damage” simply outline the distribution (little to no tissue damage will dissipate as quickly as the more transient peripheral and central fatigue types). Thanks for the heads up about the Tindeq link. UA-cam gets confused by the "?" I guess. Thanks for supporting the channel!! :) -Emile
For me there's 2 things that I think speak for deload periods: for us non-professionals, we will end up needing to put time into our other responsibilities and wants that sometimes get put aside for climbing. I know what I choose if I can pick between a limit boulder session and chores around the garden, and I think most of you do as well. The other one is that some sub-injury level damage seems to sort of stay at a barely perceptible level until my body gets a chance to fully laze around and get to chilling/repairs. For example, I have a scar on the outside of my knee that gets bumped/scraped every once in a while. It's been there for weeks/months, until I spent some time being a tourist and not climbing much, and now the scar is much less noticeable.
7:58 I agree with your overall point that we can't avoid the need for deloads through perfect programming because we can't quantify climbing fatigue perfectly. However, I'd be careful to not claim that things "can't be quantified by science", as that's the sort of statement which gets broadly misinterpreted. I'd rather say that climbing can't be quantified *using current scientific methods and technologies*. There's a very good chance that a lot of what we'd want to quantify about climbing *will* be possible to quantify at some point in the future. There's an AI researcher a few years back (well before ChatGPT) who used AI to predict and prevent running injuries (i.e. get recommendations like, "Don't run this Thursday, you're likely to get injured then based on your previous injury data"). Climbing is more complex and would likely require more complex inputs, and I don't want to add to the over-hyping of AI, but it would not be surprising to me if we were able to quantify fatigue as defined by injury risk or performance decline for a given climber within the next few decades using similar techniques. It may be that the AI techniques are already there and all that we're lacking is an AI researcher with an interest in climbing to put it together. At the very least, I'd say "climbing can't be quantified by science YET".
Bro, if I don't deload my body would collapse on itself, every month, the 4th week is always a deload and by the end of the third week im so fatigued that im literally waiting for it to come around, usually the week after my deload week i find that im able to send at my hardest. Obviously N=1 but i personally love the 3 weeks on, 1 week off model.
You could say that your training intensity is too high and that you're actually losing valuable training time having to deload that frequently. Which is what we point out in the vid :) But of course, if you like your current program, don't have frequent injuries, and are still progressing consistently, then that's fine as well! If you can't check those boxes then you might want to consider the first part I mentioned.
I was running something similar for a while. I started fasting and for me, one full day fast with 10ish hours of sleep seems to be the same recovery as a 5-6 day de-load. Now I train even harder and at most take one session off every month or two. If you're feeling that wrecked every month you may want to take a look at other things you can change, especially around training intensity and recovery. Most of us are so far away from optimal recovery it's insane.
@@La0bouchere I just do short blocks of very intense training in the lead up to a performance phase, it’s never an all year round thing. I’m friends with a number of British pro climbers and they all train in a similar fashion and all feel pretty fatigued by the end of their training blocks too so I don’t think it’s something I’m doing wrong. I also have a coach (Mina Leslie-wujastyk) who I talk to regarding my diet, recovery too and I’ve never had her flag this as an issue
Well I learned my lesson, twice in the last 10 months. In October 2023 I thorn a tendon and suffered tfcc injury, recovered 80% for two months resting and 100% after two more months easy climbing. When I did recovered though I started climbing almost every day at one moment. Managed to go 4-5 categories up , but at some moment I started experience mild pain and stiffness in my right thumb, so I reduced training, but the pain and stiffness increased. Went to a doctor, took some pills, reduced training more. The moment I was feeling good I screwed up. Two days ago the tendon inflammation was so bad, that I wasn't able to move my thumb, took one shot of corticosteroids plus physiotherapy. Already moving my thumb painless. Monday second shot and probably September I'll start climbing again. This time, my plan, especially in the gym - more strength training and conditioning, less climbing inside, but pushing outside, take deload weeks and rest days .
A while ago I was stuck on 35’s on a chest press after a shoulder injury for like months. So, I lower the weight and added another working set at like 60% my previous weight. Now I'm shoulder and chest pressing more weight. I thinks important to value rest as well as training intensity
I have a weird injury question: I was injury free, took a long break from climbing, and when I returned to climbing I was injured. Has anyone else experienced this? I am an avid climber: 10 years climbing 5.13s regularly for a long time. For professional reasons I stopped climbing and basically sat down for 7 months - no training, exercise, nothing (commute involved 1.5 min walk). I was healthy when I stopped, but in my first climbing session back I was shocked to find pain in my flexor tendon (between the A2 and A3 pulley) on every finger on both hands - no acute injury. The pain is most notable when I pull on a jugs, sloppers are the most comfortable, crimps are in between. First sessions were extremely light, as I noticed the pain immediately, and I am continuing to do light sessions - pain levels seem to be improving (slowly). I project a recovery time of 2 to 3 months. Currently trying to assess if this is a matter of pain tolerance or suggestive of an underlying condition like tendonitis. or suggestive of an underlying condition like tendonitis.
hey, a physiotherapist colleague from germany here! I practice 4 week training - 1 week deload (=no training) cycles and my perception is, that i peak on progressing on week 2/3 and start to get more tired on week 3/4 which leads to stagnating performance on the achieved level. week 1 feels lighter on the training, i perform as achieved in the last cycle, but I feel very slight DOMS the day after training. this method enables me to train 6 days a week with 3x3hrs of bouldering, 3x3hrs of push/legs on strengthendurance and 3x1,5 hrs of pull. Push/pull/legs is hybrid calisthenics aiming for strength endurance (15-30 rep range). structural soreness happens from time to time but never lasts long and does not repeat on one specific structure. i think it strongly depends on the kind of training you do. i do not see any benefit from extending my training cycles, as progression always falls off on week 3 but keeps happening in the long term. climbing performance progression is a special beast tho. it depends on so many factors that I regularily happen to top a hard boulder which I tried a lot even on a bad day, sometimes even in the end of an intense 3 hrs session.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the argument in favor (practiced for decades in endurance training athletes), that deloads will allow you to reach higher peak levels fatigue than would be sustainable with constant training, leading to larger incremental adaptation during deload and recovery cycles. If anything, having a properly training program to build these intense training peaks safely and repeatedly seems like it's even more important than avoiding overtraining with a static training load.
Well, since that applies to endurance athletes, it certainly doesn't have a direct translation to some of the arguments for climbers, which we state. Or, it would be a bit bold of us to claim that because it works well for endurance trained athletes that it must also work for climbers.
I’m 54 years OLD; started 2 years ago. I climb twice per week indoor. No finger hangs, little boulder. I push as much as I can on routes. Do I need a reload? It seems my load is not high, and 2-3 days between sessions are enough. Of course, with some level of constant pain in the fingers … Thanks
If you feel fresh each session (and are making good progress, if that's what you're trying to do), then you shouldn't need a deload week with such a low volume of climbing (unless you're doing six hour sessions or something) and no additional strength training. However, the constant pain in your fingers should be addressed if it's a notable issue. Some more specific finger training could actually help your fingers stay healthier/happier if done correctly. Of course, you could also just try out a deload week and see what happens -- there aren't really any downsides other than some lost climbing time. :) -Emile
Thanks for your answer. I do 2-3h sessions. I tried some low load weeks but felt it was not really needed, and bad about missing on fun. Hard for me to do just endurance; can't resist working on new hard routes. I'll try adding one finger hang session per week and see if it feels better on fingers. I was careful not to do too much, to avoid injuries. Thanks @@HoopersBeta
Does it make sense to take deload weeks if I only climb 3 times a week? I always have 1 or 2 days of rest between sessions (and I climb for about 2h in each session). I feel like I don't climb 'that much' to consider having deload weeks, but I also have times were I feel my level drops, so I don't know... And there is also the fact that I don't always have 8h of sleep, my diet could probably be improved... so many different factors.
You probably shouldn’t need deload weeks with your current schedule, since the intensity and volume sound pretty low. However, as you pointed out, your recovery might not be that good. If your training load is light and you’re not recovering between sessions, a deload isn’t the answer IMO. You’ll lose climbing time without fixing the root problem. -Emile
I don't think "microtears in muscle" are a sign of excessive training, I think that's the basic mechanism by which your muscles break down, then rebuild stronger. The fact that microtears can take weeks is a good argument for deloading. You are speaking like microtears in the muscle are some kind of injury when in fact they happen whenever you train your muscles, and are part of the normal growing process.
We talked to them before making this video to get their perspective and they kindly provided a breakdown of their approach. We seem to agree on most deload-related topics. The only real difference I believe is that they prefer programming deloads more frequently than us. Here is a short snippet from their email (we asked if they'd mind us sharing): "In summary, deload weeks may not be necessary for improved adaptation. If the training load is appropriate we may not need to deload. But there are benefits to the climber in the long term to break up monotony and help some avoid non-functional overreaching. We can also schedule things like assessments while they are feeling recovered and energised." So yeah, pretty much the same conclusion. There's no evidence to show deloads are necessary but in the real world they appear to be useful -- sometimes purely for psychological reasons. -Emile
And so it happens I've been climbing a ton these past few weeks and now I'm feeling completely run down and can't handle another session without a few extra days of rest, AND I have a climbing trip coming up in a week, not sure whether to do a complete break or just a deload
Everyone is a little different and that might take a little experimentation on your side to see "which is best" - personal intuition can be useful in these situations. Otherwise start with a deload at a more aggressive rate (maybe up to 50% reduction in volume) and then see how you feel / adjust from there. Good luck on the climbing trip!
I generally use my transition between training cycles as my deload since my intensity has to be at the lower end of stimulating and I need to build the volume for new stimulus, but these occur on an irregular schedule about six to eight weeks (after a significant reduction in progress). One point I will state in favor of deloads is at both ends of the recovery spectrum there appears to be greater need for recovery. At the upper end recovery has to be more optimized, and at the lower end we have started to encounter injury and reduction in quality. Training to be at say 80% and then deloading is sustainable. Good information and glad to see you advising against this four week cycle deload as being mostly wasting training time for many athletes. Rigid training cycles are bad and do not consider the training history, intensity of certain periods, potential for growth, etc., and this is low level optimization.
I've seen coaches and athletes preach that "over training isn't real" or "there is no such thing as over training". I'm curious if over training has to do with bad programming.
My understanding is that defining what people mean by "overtraining" is the first hurdle. For example, in this video we use it in the more casual sense to mean something like "continuing to train when you're too fatigued to achieve progressive overload and/or quality skill practice with your chosen exercises, resulting in a stagnation or decline in progress over time." That is absolutely a real phenomenon resulting from poor programming. As an extreme example: you can't do max-weight deadlifts to failure for tons of sets every single day of the year and expect to progress indefinitely, much less "optimally" or safely. However, there is also a supposedly more official term called "overtraining syndrome," which involves more severe physiological symptoms, hormone changes, etc. How "real" and likely something like that is to occur in athletes, and specifically climbers, is something that will require more investigation on our part. Though at first glance it appears to be very rare, especially considering many climbers plateau from *under* training (in the right areas). So I guess short answer: training too much and getting really tired is definitely a thing that happens, but the vast majority of climbers who plateau are simply training poorly rather than "too much" (IMO, of course). -Emile
Deloads are a huge deal in strength sports, as they are a major part of peaking for max lifts before a meet or contest. From my understanding, as training continues (especially with heavier and heavier weights), the central nervous system (CNS) starts to stay in a state of constant activation. The longer you train without a deload, the more "activated" the CNS stays. It's why cramps and aches/pains increase, as does mental frustration and agitation, cause the body is essentially more and more ready to go. Deloads decrease this CNS priming, while maintaining coordination for movements. When peaking, it really sucks. Mitchell Hooper, current world's strongest man, just talked about his experience coming up to a major competition. His feet ached, he felt terrible, but his lifts had never been stronger. Due to how primed the CNS is all the time when nearing a peak, it takes a lot longer to warm up to get all the muscles "talking" to perform lifts, but once they're there the strength is incredible. It may be completely wrong, but it's the explanation I've received for how to know when to deload and when to keep pushing through. To give an example: When someone starts bench pressing, their numbers will skyrocket week to week. They aren't adding a lot of new muscle, if any, but they are getting stronger because the CNS is coordinating itself for the movement. If they continue on that trend, taking longer to warm up to keep up with the CNS, they'll hit a massive PR. Then if they take a week off they won't be able to hit that again, because the CNS isn't up to it any more. I'm not sure how any of that relates to climbing though. Climbers rarely recruit all of their muscle fibers for anything on the wall, and max pull-ups are about the only time I have seen most climbers pull as hard as they possible can with major muscle groups. Big difference between a max deadlift and finger tissue damage, so I'm not sure if much or any of the above translates to climbing.
Personally, deloading has never made sense. Like you say, deloading is probably just a result of when someone is overtraining. In my experience, I find that if I only climb two days in a row, focus on other specific trainings for a couple of other days (weight lifting and cardio for example) followed by one day rest, I feel fine. I’ve been following this for about two years without any deloads and I haven’t plateaued. I’ve seen steady progress in strength and performance. It’s definitely more about listening to your body and knowing the difference between pushing yourself and overdoing it.
As a 50 year old climber with a job I really disagree with this. It seems to assume someone is a pro athlete or climbing bum, I find I get mental as much as physical fatigue if I train all the time and an easy week really helps. I also find it's good for finger tweaks to have a week of low intensity.
@@HoopersBeta You're saying there is no research to support deloads. I'd suggest that research is always skewed towards high performance and younger athletes and ignores people who don't fit into that group, while it may not show up in those groups I'm sure it would if the research was broad based.
What??? There was no sarcasm in my comment, only genuine confusion. You didn't specify what you were disagreeing with so I had no idea how to respond. I'm still a bit unclear... Like we said, there is no research on deloads. We have no control over that. What is your argument? That someone should do a study on deloads with older athletes?
@@HoopersBeta I'm saying that the research you've used to argue that the is no inevitable fatigue accumulation here ua-cam.com/video/Vv3MBxpuNfQ/v-deo.html will have been done on younger athletes and as people get older they recover more slowly, that is why I'm saying that for older athletes Imo there is more of an argument for are more compelling as people don't recover as quickly when they get older.
Research links, timestamps, and more in the description as always! To reduce potential for confusion, here's a few more notes that didn't make it into the video:
1. "So you're disagreeing with Dr. Mike?" Not necessarily. He's speaking to bodybuilders and we're speaking to rock climbers. Very different athletes. If you watch the video till the end you'll see that (the "hybrid athlete" section).
2. "So you're saying if I don't need deloads, I'm not training hard enough?" Nope, we are not saying that! That is something some coaches and athletes will say, but as usual black and white statements don't tend to hold up in all circumstances. It is possible some climbers can train for long periods, possibly even indefinitely, without ever needing a deload week because intuitive/reactive fatigue management is a thing. However, in our opinion, many climbers aren't experienced/conscientious enough to program their training and manage fatigue at that level.
3. "So you're saying if I take a deload week every month I'm dumb?" Not at all! This video points out some potential pitfalls of frequent deloads in certain situations. Regardless, you can program your training and manage fatigue however you see fit. As we point out, individualized deload schedules are probably ideal, but they are not mandatory.
4. "So you're saying if I don't do deloads I'll overtrain and get injured?" Nope, not necessarily, because again: there are other ways to manage fatigue. However, we do see a lot of chronic injuries that likely result from improper training load long-term, and deloads are a simple strategy to address that.
5. "So you're saying if I do deloads I won't get injured?" No, you can definitely still get injured by being beligerant with training tools, programming, and recovery inhibitors. Deload weeks are not a complete or even proven solution for preventing injuries, though logically they can do so to some extent.
6. "So you're saying I'm not progressing because I'm not doing deload weeks?" Not necessarily. While too much training load can lead to plateaus, it's also quite common for climbers to plateau because they're not doing enough. If you don't know whether you're undertraining or overtraining, you need to do examine and experiment with your programming (and/or talk to a coach to save some time).
You educate me to training like no other content creator do. Thank you for that !
sometimes (approx once every 3 months) i just feel a bit more pain than usual, more inflammation, i just take 5-6 days full rest doing nothing but some stretch. i make sure to eat well and sleep well. it dosnt cause weight gain, i dont loose strenght.. and just comeback way stronger than before the little break.
As always quality of these videos are impressive
As a recreational boulderer, I just do reactive deloads when I got a bit too much into climbing again to the point where I feel my body hurting(too much, in the wrong way). Basically deloads for me are a way to remind myself that while my motivation sometimes is, my body deffo isn't 15 anymore and getting closer to 2 decades of desk work just left a mark on me.
It's perhaps worthwhile to mention that older athletes (i.e. 40+) can benefit from more frequent deloads, according Tom Randall. Tom suggests 2 weeks on, one week deload for climbers approaching 50.
It depends on so many factors! How hard are they training? What's their athletic background? What type of climbing are they doing? What type of deload are they doing? I think it's important to remember that deloads, while a good tool, are definitely not *strictly* necessary for everyone or even necessary-at-specific-intervals. So it's useful to have general guidelines and suggestions for deloading, and it's certainly logical that middle-aged climbers will take longer to recover than teenagers, but the main thing we want to avoid is making people think that a specific deload schedule is the ultimate fix for all training and recovery woes. There are so many ways to manage fatigue and maintain progression in a skill sport like climbing; deloads are just one strategy. Not that you or Tom were implying anything to the contrary, this is mostly just FYI for anyone browsing the comments :)
-Emile
Research links, timestamps, and more in the description as always! To reduce potential for confusion, here's a few more notes that didn't make it into the video:
1. "So you're disagreeing with Dr. Mike?" Not necessarily. He's speaking to bodybuilders and we're speaking to rock climbers. Very different athletes. If you watch the video till the end you'll see that (the "hybrid athlete" section).
2. "So you're saying if I don't need deloads, I'm not training hard enough?" Nope, we are not saying that! That is something some coaches and athletes will say, but as usual black and white statements don't tend to hold up in all circumstances. It is possible some climbers can train for long periods, possibly even indefinitely, without ever needing a deload week because intuitive/reactive fatigue management is a thing. However, in our opinion, many climbers aren't experienced/conscientious enough to program their training and manage fatigue at that level.
3. "So you're saying if I take a deload week every month I'm dumb?" Not at all! This video points out some potential pitfalls of frequent deloads in certain situations. Regardless, you can program your training and manage fatigue however you see fit. As we point out, individualized deload schedules are probably ideal, but they are not mandatory.
4. "So you're saying if I don't do deloads I'll overtrain and get injured?" Nope, not necessarily, because again: there are other ways to manage fatigue. However, we do see a lot of chronic injuries that likely result from improper training load long-term, and deloads are a simple strategy to address that.
5. "So you're saying if I do deloads I won't get injured?" No, you can definitely still get injured by being beligerant with training tools, programming, and recovery inhibitors. Deload weeks are not a complete or even proven solution for preventing injuries, though logically they can do so to some extent.
6. "So you're saying I'm not progressing because I'm not doing deload weeks?" Not necessarily. While too much training load can lead to plateaus, it's also quite common for climbers to plateau because they're not doing enough. If you don't know whether you're undertraining or overtraining, you need to do examine and experiment with your programming (and/or talk to a coach to save some time).
Thank you for referencing Dr. Mike @RenaissancePeriodization ! Dr. Mike is an incredible teacher and resource, even if you are not training for hypertrophy :)
I think there's no better advice than "listen to your body"
It's kinda crazy how fatigue can creep up and then just destroy you. Last week I was hitting huge PRs on multiple grips and projecting higher grades than I could ever touch before, and this week I'm sick as a dog, sleeping 12+ hours a day. The mistake: I lost sleep last week, kept training like I was sleeping normally, and climbed harder than I should have. Prior to this point I had taken longer rest periods every 2 months or so, but that was by feel, and this time I barely noticed a difference in my strength and fatigue levels. It is very hard to be mindful of fatigue!
Life has a habit of getting in the way of our "optimal training" goals ;). Fatigue and load management are definitely tricky skills to learn, which is why I feel like it's hard to find good instruction about it online. A lot of it seems to come from anecdotes about peoples' personal trial and error. If only we had more conclusive data about fatigue mechanisms!
-Emile
awesome and very helpful as always, thank you Mr. Beta!
Our pleasure!
I needed this video today more than you know. Thanks Hoop!
Congrats for 100k subs!!! ;) Let climbing knowledge spread all over the world !
Thank you!! Gettin' reeeaaalll close!! :)
a colab with Dr. Mike would be soo cool. Even if he work mainly with powerlifter and bodybuilder, he got a lot of insight on many subject and worked with athlete from many discipline :)
I’m already floating the idea in the comments for RP videos. 😂
GOOD CALL, I like mike so much. I structure a lot of my nutrition and training program for climbing with his video.@@jacoboblanco1555
It's always a pleasure to watch your channel!
As a female, I've had to accept that a 3/1 schedule works best for my body. That one week is both proactive and reactive, I guess 😅
Glad you found something that works! What type of deload do you do? Full rest or reduced training?
Reduced training, mostly the things I do other than climbing, because it's hard to not go hard in the gym 😂
Great video! You make a couple of good points on both sides.
Something I've been thinking about is how to account for different levels of general activity during the day when deciding what to do training wise. I've been combining climbing with a job that at times is fairly physically demanding, but at other times involves long driving or sitting/standing at a desk. Sometimes during the active periods I can feel that my body needs a bit more rest, but generally it seems that after a few days or weeks my body just adapts to the new amount of energy it needs to spend. My worry is that I'll end up accumulating damage to the connective tissue, but so far I've been mostly fine.
Great episode, thanks!
Are the lines at 6:10 meant as distributions or functions for strength loss given type-damage and time? If functions, then 1. why do they start low? Should it not be monotonically decreasing? 2. if there are two lines of the same colour, are they the best cast and worst case? If they are not functions of your path to recovery, but distributions of when to expect recovery, why are there two yellow and two green lines? 😕
I wanted to support the (best on YT) channel while further optimizing my climbing, so I went to Tindeq. Turns out they are based in Norway where I live! Thanks for showing me an awesome local company that I somehow have missed before.
@HoopersBeta Is the url discount-link broken to Tindeq? There is a "?ref=1003" at the ending that should perhaps be part of the link? I will wait to buy the V-rings and Progressor until I see if the url should be fixed. :)
Hey! The graph is meant as a simple visual aid; nothing too scientific or precise. The lines show distributions. So most strength loss due to peripheral fatigue seems to dissipate within a few hours, muscle damage usually takes longer (sometimes a day or a few days), etc. I probably should have shaded in the area under the red and orange lines too to make it clear that they’re all distributions. The two lines of “muscle damage” and “connective tissue damage” simply outline the distribution (little to no tissue damage will dissipate as quickly as the more transient peripheral and central fatigue types).
Thanks for the heads up about the Tindeq link. UA-cam gets confused by the "?" I guess. Thanks for supporting the channel!! :)
-Emile
Thanks, so I will just manually copy the url then 😊
For me there's 2 things that I think speak for deload periods: for us non-professionals, we will end up needing to put time into our other responsibilities and wants that sometimes get put aside for climbing. I know what I choose if I can pick between a limit boulder session and chores around the garden, and I think most of you do as well. The other one is that some sub-injury level damage seems to sort of stay at a barely perceptible level until my body gets a chance to fully laze around and get to chilling/repairs. For example, I have a scar on the outside of my knee that gets bumped/scraped every once in a while. It's been there for weeks/months, until I spent some time being a tourist and not climbing much, and now the scar is much less noticeable.
Damn this was gold
7:58 I agree with your overall point that we can't avoid the need for deloads through perfect programming because we can't quantify climbing fatigue perfectly.
However, I'd be careful to not claim that things "can't be quantified by science", as that's the sort of statement which gets broadly misinterpreted. I'd rather say that climbing can't be quantified *using current scientific methods and technologies*.
There's a very good chance that a lot of what we'd want to quantify about climbing *will* be possible to quantify at some point in the future. There's an AI researcher a few years back (well before ChatGPT) who used AI to predict and prevent running injuries (i.e. get recommendations like, "Don't run this Thursday, you're likely to get injured then based on your previous injury data"). Climbing is more complex and would likely require more complex inputs, and I don't want to add to the over-hyping of AI, but it would not be surprising to me if we were able to quantify fatigue as defined by injury risk or performance decline for a given climber within the next few decades using similar techniques. It may be that the AI techniques are already there and all that we're lacking is an AI researcher with an interest in climbing to put it together.
At the very least, I'd say "climbing can't be quantified by science YET".
idk, but i've broken most of my grade plateaus after having a deload week. always feels like a low gravity day lol
Bro, if I don't deload my body would collapse on itself, every month, the 4th week is always a deload and by the end of the third week im so fatigued that im literally waiting for it to come around, usually the week after my deload week i find that im able to send at my hardest. Obviously N=1 but i personally love the 3 weeks on, 1 week off model.
You could say that your training intensity is too high and that you're actually losing valuable training time having to deload that frequently. Which is what we point out in the vid :) But of course, if you like your current program, don't have frequent injuries, and are still progressing consistently, then that's fine as well! If you can't check those boxes then you might want to consider the first part I mentioned.
I was running something similar for a while. I started fasting and for me, one full day fast with 10ish hours of sleep seems to be the same recovery as a 5-6 day de-load. Now I train even harder and at most take one session off every month or two.
If you're feeling that wrecked every month you may want to take a look at other things you can change, especially around training intensity and recovery. Most of us are so far away from optimal recovery it's insane.
@@La0bouchere I just do short blocks of very intense training in the lead up to a performance phase, it’s never an all year round thing. I’m friends with a number of British pro climbers and they all train in a similar fashion and all feel pretty fatigued by the end of their training blocks too so I don’t think it’s something I’m doing wrong. I also have a coach (Mina Leslie-wujastyk) who I talk to regarding my diet, recovery too and I’ve never had her flag this as an issue
I can't maintain year round focus. I do other stuff too!
That's fine too! As long as you have a healthy approach to how you return to specific sports :)
Well I learned my lesson, twice in the last 10 months.
In October 2023 I thorn a tendon and suffered tfcc injury, recovered 80% for two months resting and 100% after two more months easy climbing. When I did recovered though I started climbing almost every day at one moment.
Managed to go 4-5 categories up , but at some moment I started experience mild pain and stiffness in my right thumb, so I reduced training, but the pain and stiffness increased. Went to a doctor, took some pills, reduced training more. The moment I was feeling good I screwed up. Two days ago the tendon inflammation was so bad, that I wasn't able to move my thumb, took one shot of corticosteroids plus physiotherapy. Already moving my thumb painless. Monday second shot and probably September I'll start climbing again.
This time, my plan, especially in the gym - more strength training and conditioning, less climbing inside, but pushing outside, take deload weeks and rest days .
Oh what a helpfull and funny video !😂 i totaly love that meme at 9:30 time 😂
:) I love the meme's in this one.
A while ago I was stuck on 35’s on a chest press after a shoulder injury for like months. So, I lower the weight and added another working set at like 60% my previous weight. Now I'm shoulder and chest pressing more weight. I thinks important to value rest as well as training intensity
totally agree. quite often less is more in climbing
I have a weird injury question: I was injury free, took a long break from climbing, and when I returned to climbing I was injured. Has anyone else experienced this?
I am an avid climber: 10 years climbing 5.13s regularly for a long time. For professional reasons I stopped climbing and basically sat down for 7 months - no training, exercise, nothing (commute involved 1.5 min walk). I was healthy when I stopped, but in my first climbing session back I was shocked to find pain in my flexor tendon (between the A2 and A3 pulley) on every finger on both hands - no acute injury. The pain is most notable when I pull on a jugs, sloppers are the most comfortable, crimps are in between.
First sessions were extremely light, as I noticed the pain immediately, and I am continuing to do light sessions - pain levels seem to be improving (slowly). I project a recovery time of 2 to 3 months. Currently trying to assess if this is a matter of pain tolerance or suggestive of an underlying condition like tendonitis. or suggestive of an underlying condition like tendonitis.
i deload 1 week per month and it's going well for me!
Deload weeks mostly occur naturally for me, because other stuff happens in life 🙂
hey, a physiotherapist colleague from germany here! I practice 4 week training - 1 week deload (=no training) cycles and my perception is, that i peak on progressing on week 2/3 and start to get more tired on week 3/4 which leads to stagnating performance on the achieved level. week 1 feels lighter on the training, i perform as achieved in the last cycle, but I feel very slight DOMS the day after training. this method enables me to train 6 days a week with 3x3hrs of bouldering, 3x3hrs of push/legs on strengthendurance and 3x1,5 hrs of pull. Push/pull/legs is hybrid calisthenics aiming for strength endurance (15-30 rep range). structural soreness happens from time to time but never lasts long and does not repeat on one specific structure. i think it strongly depends on the kind of training you do. i do not see any benefit from extending my training cycles, as progression always falls off on week 3 but keeps happening in the long term. climbing performance progression is a special beast tho. it depends on so many factors that I regularily happen to top a hard boulder which I tried a lot even on a bad day, sometimes even in the end of an intense 3 hrs session.
Hey! Agreed, it absolutely depends on what you’re training and how you’re training it!
I'm surprised you didn't mention the argument in favor (practiced for decades in endurance training athletes), that deloads will allow you to reach higher peak levels fatigue than would be sustainable with constant training, leading to larger incremental adaptation during deload and recovery cycles. If anything, having a properly training program to build these intense training peaks safely and repeatedly seems like it's even more important than avoiding overtraining with a static training load.
Well, since that applies to endurance athletes, it certainly doesn't have a direct translation to some of the arguments for climbers, which we state. Or, it would be a bit bold of us to claim that because it works well for endurance trained athletes that it must also work for climbers.
Man the middle finger to the wall at 14:37 is so accurate 😂
I’m 54 years OLD; started 2 years ago. I climb twice per week indoor. No finger hangs, little boulder. I push as much as I can on routes. Do I need a reload? It seems my load is not high, and 2-3 days between sessions are enough. Of course, with some level of constant pain in the fingers … Thanks
If you feel fresh each session (and are making good progress, if that's what you're trying to do), then you shouldn't need a deload week with such a low volume of climbing (unless you're doing six hour sessions or something) and no additional strength training. However, the constant pain in your fingers should be addressed if it's a notable issue. Some more specific finger training could actually help your fingers stay healthier/happier if done correctly. Of course, you could also just try out a deload week and see what happens -- there aren't really any downsides other than some lost climbing time. :)
-Emile
Thanks for your answer. I do 2-3h sessions. I tried some low load weeks but felt it was not really needed, and bad about missing on fun. Hard for me to do just endurance; can't resist working on new hard routes. I'll try adding one finger hang session per week and see if it feels better on fingers. I was careful not to do too much, to avoid injuries. Thanks @@HoopersBeta
Does it make sense to take deload weeks if I only climb 3 times a week?
I always have 1 or 2 days of rest between sessions (and I climb for about 2h in each session).
I feel like I don't climb 'that much' to consider having deload weeks, but I also have times were I feel my level drops, so I don't know...
And there is also the fact that I don't always have 8h of sleep, my diet could probably be improved... so many different factors.
You probably shouldn’t need deload weeks with your current schedule, since the intensity and volume sound pretty low. However, as you pointed out, your recovery might not be that good. If your training load is light and you’re not recovering between sessions, a deload isn’t the answer IMO. You’ll lose climbing time without fixing the root problem.
-Emile
I don't think "microtears in muscle" are a sign of excessive training, I think that's the basic mechanism by which your muscles break down, then rebuild stronger. The fact that microtears can take weeks is a good argument for deloading. You are speaking like microtears in the muscle are some kind of injury when in fact they happen whenever you train your muscles, and are part of the normal growing process.
I would really like to see what @LatticeTraining would answer to your arguments
We talked to them before making this video to get their perspective and they kindly provided a breakdown of their approach. We seem to agree on most deload-related topics. The only real difference I believe is that they prefer programming deloads more frequently than us. Here is a short snippet from their email (we asked if they'd mind us sharing): "In summary, deload weeks may not be necessary for improved adaptation. If the training load is appropriate we may not need to deload. But there are benefits to the climber in the long term to break up monotony and help some avoid non-functional overreaching. We can also schedule things like assessments while they are feeling recovered and energised." So yeah, pretty much the same conclusion. There's no evidence to show deloads are necessary but in the real world they appear to be useful -- sometimes purely for psychological reasons.
-Emile
Thanks @@HoopersBeta 😉
And so it happens I've been climbing a ton these past few weeks and now I'm feeling completely run down and can't handle another session without a few extra days of rest, AND I have a climbing trip coming up in a week, not sure whether to do a complete break or just a deload
Everyone is a little different and that might take a little experimentation on your side to see "which is best" - personal intuition can be useful in these situations. Otherwise start with a deload at a more aggressive rate (maybe up to 50% reduction in volume) and then see how you feel / adjust from there. Good luck on the climbing trip!
@@HoopersBeta Thanks Jason! I'll just wait until I feel recovered enough to climb and then try a deloaded session and see how I feel afterwards
I generally use my transition between training cycles as my deload since my intensity has to be at the lower end of stimulating and I need to build the volume for new stimulus, but these occur on an irregular schedule about six to eight weeks (after a significant reduction in progress).
One point I will state in favor of deloads is at both ends of the recovery spectrum there appears to be greater need for
recovery. At the upper end recovery has to be more optimized, and at the lower end we have started to encounter injury and reduction in quality. Training to be at say 80% and then deloading is sustainable.
Good information and glad to see you advising against this four week cycle deload as being mostly wasting training time for many athletes. Rigid training cycles are bad and do not consider the training history, intensity of certain periods, potential for growth, etc., and this is low level optimization.
Can you get better at training? If you train hard can your body get used to training harder?
Absolutely
If you experience disrupted sleep patterns, fatigue, mood swings and chronic tiredness: don't have kids 😂
11:31
I've seen coaches and athletes preach that "over training isn't real" or "there is no such thing as over training". I'm curious if over training has to do with bad programming.
My understanding is that defining what people mean by "overtraining" is the first hurdle. For example, in this video we use it in the more casual sense to mean something like "continuing to train when you're too fatigued to achieve progressive overload and/or quality skill practice with your chosen exercises, resulting in a stagnation or decline in progress over time." That is absolutely a real phenomenon resulting from poor programming. As an extreme example: you can't do max-weight deadlifts to failure for tons of sets every single day of the year and expect to progress indefinitely, much less "optimally" or safely.
However, there is also a supposedly more official term called "overtraining syndrome," which involves more severe physiological symptoms, hormone changes, etc. How "real" and likely something like that is to occur in athletes, and specifically climbers, is something that will require more investigation on our part. Though at first glance it appears to be very rare, especially considering many climbers plateau from *under* training (in the right areas).
So I guess short answer: training too much and getting really tired is definitely a thing that happens, but the vast majority of climbers who plateau are simply training poorly rather than "too much" (IMO, of course).
-Emile
So I am in a hyper-deload phase since a month...
Deloads are a huge deal in strength sports, as they are a major part of peaking for max lifts before a meet or contest. From my understanding, as training continues (especially with heavier and heavier weights), the central nervous system (CNS) starts to stay in a state of constant activation. The longer you train without a deload, the more "activated" the CNS stays. It's why cramps and aches/pains increase, as does mental frustration and agitation, cause the body is essentially more and more ready to go. Deloads decrease this CNS priming, while maintaining coordination for movements.
When peaking, it really sucks. Mitchell Hooper, current world's strongest man, just talked about his experience coming up to a major competition. His feet ached, he felt terrible, but his lifts had never been stronger. Due to how primed the CNS is all the time when nearing a peak, it takes a lot longer to warm up to get all the muscles "talking" to perform lifts, but once they're there the strength is incredible. It may be completely wrong, but it's the explanation I've received for how to know when to deload and when to keep pushing through.
To give an example: When someone starts bench pressing, their numbers will skyrocket week to week. They aren't adding a lot of new muscle, if any, but they are getting stronger because the CNS is coordinating itself for the movement. If they continue on that trend, taking longer to warm up to keep up with the CNS, they'll hit a massive PR. Then if they take a week off they won't be able to hit that again, because the CNS isn't up to it any more.
I'm not sure how any of that relates to climbing though. Climbers rarely recruit all of their muscle fibers for anything on the wall, and max pull-ups are about the only time I have seen most climbers pull as hard as they possible can with major muscle groups. Big difference between a max deadlift and finger tissue damage, so I'm not sure if much or any of the above translates to climbing.
Personally, deloading has never made sense. Like you say, deloading is probably just a result of when someone is overtraining. In my experience, I find that if I only climb two days in a row, focus on other specific trainings for a couple of other days (weight lifting and cardio for example) followed by one day rest, I feel fine. I’ve been following this for about two years without any deloads and I haven’t plateaued. I’ve seen steady progress in strength and performance. It’s definitely more about listening to your body and knowing the difference between pushing yourself and overdoing it.
As a 50 year old climber with a job I really disagree with this. It seems to assume someone is a pro athlete or climbing bum, I find I get mental as much as physical fatigue if I train all the time and an easy week really helps. I also find it's good for finger tweaks to have a week of low intensity.
What are you disagreeing with? We said we recommend deloads…
@@HoopersBeta You're saying there is no research to support deloads. I'd suggest that research is always skewed towards high performance and younger athletes and ignores people who don't fit into that group, while it may not show up in those groups I'm sure it would if the research was broad based.
@@HoopersBeta Also you could spare me the obnoxious sarcasm if you want a discussion...
What??? There was no sarcasm in my comment, only genuine confusion. You didn't specify what you were disagreeing with so I had no idea how to respond. I'm still a bit unclear... Like we said, there is no research on deloads. We have no control over that. What is your argument? That someone should do a study on deloads with older athletes?
@@HoopersBeta I'm saying that the research you've used to argue that the is no inevitable fatigue accumulation here ua-cam.com/video/Vv3MBxpuNfQ/v-deo.html will have been done on younger athletes and as people get older they recover more slowly, that is why I'm saying that for older athletes Imo there is more of an argument for are more compelling as people don't recover as quickly when they get older.
would you rather not be able to tell the difference between babies and cupcakes or not be able to tell the difference between old people and chairs...
babies and cupcakes every time. I like to eat neither... while I find chairs delicious
I'd rather accidentally sit on Santa Claus' lap than take a bit out of a baby ;)