Should You Hangboard 2x/Day like Emil Abrahamsson? (New Analysis & Recs)
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- @EmilAbrahamsson 2-Year Update Video: • Hangboard Training 2 t...
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🔬 RESEARCH CITATIONS
www.hoopersbeta.com/library/w...
⌛ TIMESTAMPS
00:00 A Lot Has Changed in 2 Years
00:57 How Did We Get Here?
02:15 Doesn't the Study Explain Everything?
03:27 How Does It All Work?
03:33 Muscle Hypertrophy
04:40 Connective Tissue Thickening
05:53 Tendon Stiffening
07:19 Paying Our Bills :)
08:01 Strength Recruitment
09:40 Connective Tissue Remodeling
11:09 Pain Science
13:13 Other Variables
13:46 What Have We Learned?
15:08 Should You Do This Routine?
📝 SHOW NOTES
Episode 129
www.hoopersbeta.com/library/w...
⚠️ DISCLAIMER
As always, exercises and rehab programs are to be performed assuming your own risk and should not be done if you feel you are at risk for injury. See a medical professional if you have concerns before starting a new training or recovery program.
🖼️ IMAGE ATTRIBUTIONS
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#trainclimbsendrepeat #climbingtraining - Спорт
NOTES & CORRECTIONS:
1. Mega thanks to Emil (and Felix!) Abrahamsson for making his original videos and starting this whole great discussion! If you aren't familiar with his channel, I guarantee you will enjoy his content.
2. I would like to personally apologize to Emil for inexplicably refusing to pronounce his name accurately despite nailing terms like "increased collagen synthesis." 😅
3. Around 2:30 we mention the sinew study involves lab-grown chicken and rat tendons, yet the Baar article says they used sinew grown from human ACL. What gives? Tbh, we have no idea. Baar cites the sinew study when talking about human-derived tissue, but that study makes no mention of human tissue whatsoever and specifically says chicken and rat tissue was used. So Baar either cited his own research incorrectly or...???
4. At 14:00 there are two typos: "Unlikey" should be "unlikely" lol.
5. "Why didn't you mention that Emil's results were likely because he was overtraining and then took a deload month?" -- Because that explanation is obviously and demonstrably false. Emil specifically states in his original video notes that he did not change his training, and we confirmed this with him while we were researching for this video. Then, in the two-year follow-up video, Emil clearly states how much MORE training he started doing while also doing these hangs. So stating that his results were because he "stopped overtraining" makes no sense when he literally *increased* his training volume and intensity.
6. "Why didn't you talk about the most obvious explanation: the hangs increased blood flow to his fingers." -- We actually do mention this in the show notes but it got cut out of the final video because it's not a very specific explanation, and this video is about specific mechanisms. Ask yourself, HOW is the potential increased blood flow actually helping Emil? If you say "it helped his connective tissue", HOW did it help it? What is the physiological mechanism whereby his connective tissue was changed for the better? Increased blood flow doesn't actually explain what's going on. It is certainly possible that increased blood flow somehow led to some benefits, but since it's such a broad explanation it falls under the "other variables/possibilities" category.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 A Lot Has Changed in 2 Years
00:57 How Did We Get Here?
02:15 Doesn't the Study Explain Everything?
03:27 How Does It All Work?
03:33 Muscle Hypertrophy
04:40 Connective Tissue Thickening
05:53 Tendon Stiffening
07:19 Paying Our Bills :)
08:01 Strength Recruitment
09:40 Connective Tissue Remodeling
11:09 Pain Science
13:13 Other Variables
13:46 What Have We Learned?
15:08 Should You Do This Routine?
About #2. No worries man, I have no idea how my name is pronounced in English anyway. Email?
As soon as I saw his new video I started waiting for your response, thanks Hooper!
Isn't what is missing here is that this fingerboard regimen isn't the only form of finger strength he is doing? He's still climbing and doing other stuff that increase finger strength. And the massive "gains" he saw right away means the introduction of this regimen was probably similar to a taper? And he could've very well took the intensity/fatigue he put into hard fingerboard training into hard climbing / campusing (whatever else he does) which had the byproduct of increasing finger strength?
That’s basically what we conclude in the video…? If the hangs did anything they probably slightly facilitated harder climbing/training, which is what caused his actually gains.
@@HoopersBeta Fair enough. I wasn't clear in my initial post but I was responding to #5 re: overtraining . I would not say that it's obvious and demonstrably false that he wasn't overtraining. Overtraining is not measured on volume alone. It's volume and intensity combined. If I went out to try to run only 5k pace runs to train for a 5k, I would blow up and overtrain because it's too high intensity. If I replaced some of those 5k pace runs with super slow mileage (almost walking pace), I could add more volume of easy mileage to supplement my intense, high quality training (and in fact, do more volume and more overall intensity). This style of training is ubiquitous in aerobic-based sports.
Maybe we're saying the same thing at the end of the day, but I don't think it's accurate to conclude he wasn't overtraining based on what you stated in #5 above.
Overall, I appreciated this video.
The editing and sort of chapters to the video makes it so much nicer to watch. Small detail but breaks up the video into nice parts and keeps it easy to track what your saying
I agree! I love that Emile creates the chapters, makes it flow much nicer!
Thanks so much!
@@EmileModesittfantastic editing, truly - really appreciate the fluidity and precision in your hard work
Hi Dr Hooper. One thing I would love to see you address regarding two-a-days is the fact that nearly all elite level endurance runners run twice a day. Their general training schedule is to run 7 days a week with a light run in the morning and a light run in the evening, with 3 main workout runs per week in place of a light run - i.e. Mon hard track intervals / speed work, Wed hard tempo run, Sat a very long run at moderate intensity. All other 10-11 training sessions that week are typically short and low intensity.
If removing those 10-11 short, low intensity sessions per week in favor of say 2 more hard workouts was optimal, that schedule would have risen to the top of their sport by now.
This is quite standard for running at an elite level, and that sport is more advanced in terms of training knowledge than our relatively new and growing sport of climbing. I believe the way elite running coaches got to this training was trial and error over centuries, eventually ending up at this relatively optimal training schedule. I realize there are some differences between running and climbing, including that runners care about the cardiovascular side more than we do, however they are primarily getting those benefits from their weekly track intervals, tempos, and long run - not from the short, low intensity runs. It sure seems likely that there's something happening there that involves keeping their connective tissue healthy so they can run harder with less frequent injuries. While they have some theories, they don't really know why they do it. They just have learned over a very long time that it works.
Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated.
this comment was so helpful. the analogy with running helped me to understand the point of hangboarding twice a day
One thing not mentioned, but incredibly beneficial, is pairing Emil's workout with a real stone fingerboard (e.g. Nature Holds, PetraHolds, etc.) in order to condition your skin for outdoor climbing. I used this daily to prep for bouldering on granite this season and it worked like a charm. I had fully conditioned outdoor skin for my very first session and was able to keep it that way throughout the season despite being a weekend warrior.
Awesome!
This would be a really insteresting video. I’m a weekend warrior as well and I find skin and pain tolerance in the finger tips is often a limiting factor. I notice that when I climb on small incut crimps or use sharp 8mm for hangboarding the transition outside is a lot easier to make. Is their any science on deadening the pain response in the tips?
The main positive effect I‘ve seen for my climbing following this routine has been a more consistent perceived „tension“ in my fingers. I‘ve been training / hangboarding for 7-8 years but I‘ve always struggled getting consistently good climbing sessions. On good days my hands are like claws waiting to latch onto holds. Especially after rest days however, my fingers often felt like overcooked spagetti even after a normal hangboard warmup at the crag. I never found a way to control this variable until implementing this protocol. Either keeping it in place on rest days or using it to phase out of 2 consecutive rest days on the evening prior to the next climbing session, I seem to be able to activate claw mode (🤓) reliably before each session.
Thanks for the indepth analysis in all your videos, they are greatly appreciated!! 🙏🏻
As a scientist myself I actually literally laughed at pubmed's "maybe" when asked how to get thic tendons. Love it.
Hah same here! Literally laughed out loud. I loved that edit by Emile.
Another amazing video. Thanks a lot for this ❤
Another great video. Love it! Thanks for all the high quality!
Thanks guys! love this analysis!
Great info as always. I thoroughly enjoy the thorough explanations!
awesome learnings! not only the applied knowledge but also the general fundamental knowledge about, for example, the neural activations, or pain science
Love this breakdown. Super well presented and clear. Awesome that you reassessed your previous analysis.
So I have been doing the routine for 3 months now, and I feel that for me it does a good job. I dont feel like it increased my strenght, but I finally can apply my max force while climbing without having pain after crimpig a bit in a session, which was the case the months before I started. I feel like the base level of my fingers and especially the resistance against higher load, has increased by a lot, which for me was exactly what I needed. I now feel like, that my finger strength is the limiting factor again, not my finger health and. As I said, my fingers are now capable of using the strenght I had before I started the routine 3 months ago. No overloaded pulleys for example since then, although I crimp a lot more near my max in every session. After about 1 month these results were clearly noticable.
Great video as always! I feel like the next step is your team now tries it for the anecdotal experience, and see if it changes your conclusion in any way
great follow up! thanks
Another great video!
Only halfway through, fascinating. Interesting concept and related to some reading I’ve been doing about aerobic cardio to drive improvements in endurance. I followed that sort of protocol and the results are massive.
absolute gem of a video. thank you so much
Thank you for the kind words and the support!
I can't believe such amazing, incredibly interesting and well-made free content exists. Amazing!! Thanks for your job🙏🙏
Thank you! Great to hear :)
Thank you for challenging believes on tendon adaptation! Very helpful.
Nice visual organization of ideas presented.
I think you nailed it in this video. Ive been doing some low intensity hangs on a hangboard as part of my warmup routine before i climb. This has allowed my hands to fully warmup and allowed my two tweaky fingers to fully heal! Now ive been able to send a lot more difficult routes and boulders seeing steady improvements after being stuck in my progress for a while now
So awesome that this information is free online!
Amazing work, thank you for another informative video! 👏
Thank you for the kind words! Glad you enjoyed it.
A couple of years ago, Mani the Monkey tried the protocol in a much more systematic way than Emil, testing many hypotheses. His personal experience was that the protocol was mostly improving his skin conditioning, meaning that he could sustain more load on small crimps!
I forgot about that! I’ll have to go rewatch it now, thanks!
We thought about that, and I certainly buy that it could be a nice way to help ensure you don’t get blisters / crease splits when you ramp up after not fingerboarding for a while.
Thinking only about the micro hangs though, It’s actually inconceivable (to me personally) that partial weight hangs on a 20mm, no matter how often, would affect skin enough to enable hanging 6mm.
You're in ever comment section i see :D
Well, when we meet here anyway, i would like to ask a question: I really struggle on giving 100% effort on single moves, which is obviously bad for bouldering, i am ony the other hand very good at enduring longer, harder stuff with sub maximal. Do you have any sources which could help me find my inner "on-button" to go 100% for single moves. I already tried breathing (whim-hoff and tummo) but that didn't really do the trick. Breathing loud while doing the move and exhaling helped a bit.
Thanks :)
This is in line with my experience. My pain has decreased when doing this protocol. Idk about the gains though. But I also didn't overload the other training when doing this low intensity stuff.
As a more or less complete newbie I really appreciate your structured, well researched and well presented content. Cheers from Austria!
Thank you!
Nice vid and discussion! YT has become a shallow place recently, but some (few) channels are still gold mine. 👏
I'm always amazed by how much of our physical performance is dependent on things that are somewhat outside the muscle itself. I'd love to see a in depth video about strength recruitment and its details. All those things about rate coding, Golgi tendon organ inhibition, etc... Very interesting stuff, but hard find and understand to a non specialist.
Thanks for the comment and feedback! We agree, we want to do an in-depth video about recruitment - just need to find a good way to present it so it isn't boring or hard to understand! hah.
It would be good to validate the intensity people actually use with Emil's program, as based on my experience with force meters and testing, I could easily see it ticking into the 80%+ absolute intensity range without the person realizing it. One could do this by testing the person with a force-sensitive hangboard, but we'd need to take precautions against the athlete changing how they perform the protocol once they know they're being watched / tested.
All of the analysis hinges on athletes keeping the intensity low, but from having observed climbers for about 10 years, I don't think that's plausible. Climbers have an overwhelming tendency towards doing too much in any given context. Without evidence to the contrary, I would assume that anyone doing this program is routinely ticking into the higher intensity range without realizing it.
Insanely well made video, crazy we get to watch this master class for free. Ty!
Thank you for the kind comment!
I applied Emils approach to a full body workout, doing 10 moderate exercises, alternating between core and upper body stuff and just 10 reps or so each(Pushups, Pullups, bicycle crunch, that kind of stuff). Followed by some half crimps and 3 finger hangs on my toes, trying to pull rather hard for 10 breaths tho, most of it on the small beastmaker 2k edge(12mm?), which would be impossible for me to hang onto without toes. For me this works amazingly well, i do it usually 4 times per week before breakfast, takes maybe 20 minutes and my body is probably in the best shape it's ever been.
Good explanation. One hypothesis is missing although related to yours. He obviously does not stop training so in total he does more than before (even if low intensity, but 2x a day on top of regular training. I do agree though with your point and tried it myself for several weeks. The biggest Aha was indeed the combo of much more precise coordination (especially on half crimps) and a gain in confidence as the fingers more and more felt like a full unit vs previously a patchwork of tendons, muscles and joints
This is like the third time i am here too early. Makes me happy that my watching videos cycle coincides with your uploading video cycles. Thanks Hooper, for the great vids again 🎉🎉🎉
Glad you enjoyed the vid! It was a big project for Emile and I!
Awesome video! Keep it up!!! Could you do a video on how to effectivly train your fore arms or reach hypertrophy in less time possible?
If by “train your forearms” you mean train the finger flexor muscles to increase finger strength, then we have multiple videos on hangboarding as well a recent in-depth guide about block pulls with Dan Beall :) ua-cam.com/video/I_-YapmymjA/v-deo.html
I'm not sure if recruitment or some form of neurological/skill adaptation should be discounted so readily. If he's adding this routine to his regular training the sheer quantity and frequency of crimping he's performing daily would go up quite a bit.
It doesn't seem out of the question that this could have an effect on efficiency of movement. That is to say "performing a whole lotta crimps multiple times a day, every day made him better at/more comfortable with crimping". Even if they are sub maximal.
Particularly in looking at the timeline of his initial improvement.
The reason I thought the protocol worked was because the frequent low load training increased blood flow more often to the tendonsand ligaments. From what I remember you saying before, or maybe it was Emil's channel, tendons and ligaments don't naturally get much bloodflow except when moved and worked. Even under low loads this increase and frequency of blood flow allows the tendons and ligaments to recover more quickly. As "steroids" have taught us, recovery can make all the difference. Or maybe I made all this up in my head
I see now you replied to this same point already made by someone else... thanks :)
"nobody likes to admit that their brain made something up that consequently became their reality" long hard stares in the mirror this evening
The pain science factor is definitely huge. Recently i made massive gains in my bouldering, going from a v6-v7 plateau to consistently sending v8 and even my first v9. I also just felt stronger.
But all the training I did also causes my fingers to start hurting which immediately dampened my performance back down to v6-v7. Crimps i uses to cruise though now felt difficult again.
Currently taking a break while including low intensity training (like the hang boarding routine explored here) and hoping to stsrt crushing again soon.
Thanks for sharing! Yeah the body/mind is really great (sometimes) at protecting itself and it does so often by limiting that force production. Which can be frustrating though if you're not willing to listen to those signs! Sounds like you are though, so good work. Hope you are feeling better soon!
@@HoopersBeta thank you and thanks for the reply! I took about a week off and just went climbing today. My fingers felt much better! I think I had just overworked them after doing too much intense kilterboard climbing lol.
During the break I did a slightly less strict version of the Emil hangboarding technique, along with squeezing one of my "grip training" rings (I call them doughnuts tho). I also did some deadlifting and other climbing adjacent workouts.
Even though I didn't push my limits today I certainly felt stronger again which was really reassuring since I was feeling super down after my struggles last week. Gonna ease my way back into things and hopefully send even harder soon 😤.
while i don't know if im building strength like Emil claims, i can tell you with the twice a day 40% load routine my fingers feel MUCH better on the wall, i was never able to consistently pull 100% on the wall without getting injured, but keeping my fingers active have made it so my sessions can stay at max power for much longer without getting hurt, and im progressing much faster than i have for a long time because of it
The problem is NO ONE has a long term report; it's all anecdotical and very short term (2-4 weeks)
A big reason I find repeaters so beneficial is finger consistency, health and my pain response. Repeaters hurt! They pull on your skin, and it helps you pull through pumped sore hands. Training back three and front two type positions. In my view the blood flow and hang time is excellent for tendon health. All anecdotal. Swear by it. And also lots of hard recruitment obvs
Loved the video, thank you for the deep dive on this. One comment on the notes & corrections re: blood flow:
Not sure I understand your aversion to the blood flow explanation. You train a muscle or tendon hard, and now it needs to recover for adaptation gains. Pick whichever mechanism you want: muscle hypertrophy, tendon thickening, tendon remodeling, vascular remodeling; don't these all require goodies from the blood? Consider an athlete that does a hard training session on the legs (could be strength training or HIIT or endurance), then lays immobilized in a bed until the next training session, compared to an athlete that does the same session with a lot of light movement (i.e. walking) in between sessions. My understanding is that the "active recovery" athlete will be better off, and this is largely due to the increased blood circulation afforded from the low intensity movement. This isn't something we need to think about much for legs or even arms because most people are using them constantly to navigate the world and perform tasks. For fingers, however, there is a much greater distance between the load of everyday tasks and training load, which might be why a dedicated "active recovery" routine has such an outsized effect on performance. Not to mention the fingers are small and distal, and a few minutes in a cool environment is enough to demonstrate how little the body cares about keeping up circulation in the fingers (compared to the IT band for example).
light-medium exercises have incredible results across most sports and the highest levels of competition. zone 2 cardio in cycling is just one example. I think there may be much more going on here than building better synaptic pathways between the brain and fingers... But like this video it's just opinion and I would live to see some actual data to support it
just awesome! thank you very much
You are welcome!
Fantastic Video! I think the in depth analysis and graphics gives us a more comprehensive understanding of this research. I did want to mention that I've had the opportunity to experiment with this modality for quite a while, and I can feel a noticeable reduction in compliance of the connective tissue in my fingers. When referencing the stiffening mechanism of action, I noticed you mainly based your conclusions on lack of intensity. But I would argue that for many trying to incorporate this into their already established routines(as is the case for myself), they are essentially increasing their volume or time under tension by quite a bit within a given week. If someone is following the 10min idea, that would equate to perhaps the TUT of a dozen cool down routes each session. I like to use this no hang modality on my rest days only-which can be as many as 5 days in a week. That's a substantial increase in TUT or volume. So, perhaps tissue stiffening is more likely than previously thought if we look at this as a volume based modality. I think it's also safe to say that some adaptation can be quite subjective given the large amount of "life" stressors, habits, diet and rest protocols that dictate an individual's response to a stimuli. I also should note that I have modified the original protocol that Emil and Felix created, mainly for convenience, but it has resulted in better results for what I'm interested in-which is reduced compliance. So, I also think the work rest ratio of the no hangs is perhaps the most impactful variable to experiment with. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Thanks,
David
Hi Dave, thanks for the anecdote! I think the results of this lightweight hang protocol could definitely change if you were to do the full 10 minute sessions every time, rather than 100 or 200 seconds like Emil's protocol calls for. Perhaps the tendon elasticity component could play a larger role. I'm sure it also varies drastically by individual at least in part because the actual load each person is doing is probably highly variable. Instructions like "just make sure the hangs are pretty easy" are going to lead to huge discrepancies between individuals compared to more specific advice like "make sure you hang exactly 30% of your body weight", so it's probable that the folks trying this routine are in fact doing vastly different loads and volume, and it's possible that this is leading to varied results. More objective(ish) data tracking is sorely needed!
-Emile
That's a great point-there's probably a ton of variation in intensity as well. It'll definitely be interesting what comes out of all this somewhere down the line. Thanks for the response Emile.
I kind of implemented the low intensity hangs on rest days and i feel like it helps with recovery. Like when a muscle is sore it helps to move it. Don’t think it’s science based but it’s a though.
I've had to tape my ring finger to play guitar for about 20 years. Did this routine for about 2 weeks and can now play without tape.
In the still pictures of you hanging boarding around the four minute mark, it looks like you’re very right dominant and your left arm is somewhat hyperextended. I’ve noticed this same problem in myself, and I work hard to attempt to balance my workouts across my right and left sides.
Could it be possible that frequent light loads or finger curls could be increasing circulation and synovial fluid movement helping the fingers recover more quickly from the actual high intensity training?
Certainly. That sort of falls in the "other" category. Increased activity like that could lead to small changes in circulation which could have a cumulative effect but not enough to explain the huge improvements they experienced.
That was my thought. My second hypothesis is : what is the intensity need to get small hypertrophy gains. We know that failure is not essential to generate hypertrophy and Emil said that he go until he feel some stretch in the finger forearm. So if we go to the door where the training is intense enough to get some small hypertrophy gains in the pulley, but not enough to generate high fatigue. We could have something that help to recover in the rest day and let you go all in with high intensity training.
I do believe the recover hypothesis is the most probable one :P
Just found your channel. Immediate sub. This is the content I come to UA-cam for.
Awesome! Welcome to the channel :)
Welcome! Thanks for the kind words, and hope you find it all helpful! :)
Have you considered asking Keith Baar to do a video with you? He has done a few podcasts. I think your understanding of the subject would mean you could ask him interesting questions. For example, does he think Emil's 80% bw loading (say 60kg vs his max effort of ~150kg?) was sufficient to produce this remodelling response given he was a well trained individual, or does it have to be a higher load like 70%MVC (and even is 1rm or MVC actually flawed when considering tendon stretch).
Does he think 10:50s repeaters is enough to produce an analgesic effect like you have conluded given what he has described about it taking 30s of isometric load to reach two-thirds relaxation of the tendon stiffness. Things like that. I bet he would be delighted that climbers had created a tendon health routine based on his research and be happy to dive into it.
In my personal life experience of working out, I do feel that light-medium intensity exercise significatly improves neuromuscular activation at any intensity level.
In a sense, there is tremendous "skill" in doing any exercise, and by practicing it a lot (in a focused manner), you get a lot better at it.
This is my thoughts, I feel that recruitment/neurological adaptation shouldn't be discounted. All movements are "skills", regardless of muscular finger strength, holding a crimp is a very specific movement.
Twice a day, low intensity fingerboarding means that Emil's body is performing the activation of holding a crimp far more times than he otherwise would have.
That repetition could make the body simply more accustomed to performing the act of crimping regardless of intensity. The idea that repeating that movement numerous times might have some effect on the "efficiency" of his grip doesn't seem out of the question.
I have those vids on a side screen and when I see those transitions with peripheral vision I think it's my PC BSODing :)
Great video, you remind me of jeff nippard but like a climbing training version. Great stuff!
I think the main cause is the protecting aspect of low intensity exercise allowing climbers to train harder without an injury. Like you said low intensity workout is perfect for rehab.
I have watched others video advising doing low intensity exercises everyday in order to avoid injuries.
Could you please do a video on or featuring epiphyseal fractures, it would help me and other adolescent climbers a lot.
Another very valuable video! After following the routine for a year now, I was wondering if some of the positive effect comes from the fact that it is done daily. Does our body adapt differently to things it encounters every day over a longer time? Could that explain extremely robust fingers of carpenters, who never get the high intensity of climbers, but a lot of low-medium every day?
Similar to language learning, where every day 5 min can outperform one 1 hour session per week.
I think the workout is a great add as a supplemental work and has much of the same benefits as active recovery. I do also think that for the less than 10k hours masters climber there is something to simply adding the extra reps( greasing the groove) in regards to how natural the movements become (sounds silly but that was my experience with it...was also doing BFRs at same time). Moreover I do also theorize that the additional stressing of the tendons "In addition" to a traditional training program may likely result in increases in tendon strength longer term (which is also sort for the same reasons as more stimulus, more blood flow, more collagen delivered equals more tendon gains). Lastly I think this is also a great stop gap exercise to add in if not feeling the try hard vibe, injured, or on vacation. But yes this workout alone will not result in any of the strength gains.
This is exactly what I took away from it, and Emil himself also put out some similar theories in a (semi) recent climbing podcast.
starded this routine about one month into a A2 Pully injury. It has been 2 months since I got injured, before the injury I couldn't hang from a 10mm edge, now I can 😅
I think saying Emil is not injured ignores the fact that he is doing high intesity bouldering regularly. witch will cause small injury so that point feels misrepresented. great video though as always watching the whole thing you do say this i just had not got to it still might be a bit understated.
I wonder what I would look like if they had a control group that was training as hard as they were prior to changing their protocol then did nothing but rested. My bet is the rest group would do just as well or slightly worse as the two times per day routine. Their protocol seems more rehabilitative. They probably healed tissue that was already damaged or allowed adequate rest to finally grow from the intensity of their prior training routine.
I'd also be curious if the no foot hangboarding is engaging the system more in the manor of how Tyler Nelson is looking at it where he is strongly preferring training closing/engaging only your fingers vs weighted hangboarding. I personally felt that no feet hangboarding and no feet BFR hangboarding had an impact of how my fingers felt on the wall in a way that is hard to describe. I wouldn't say my max hangs went up but my strength available on the wall felt like it went up.
Great video and analysis a couple years on. All the points make sense to me. Additional idea to the discussion of what is happening is his routine seems more akin to an isometric overcoming exercise reliant on muscular contraction rather than passive tension and the stretching of certain fibers. Even at bodyweight, many strong climbers will find flexing the fingers to lift themselves challenging, and using isometric overcoming exercises you can consistently get near to maximal effort. If maximal is say BW+10% to flex the fingers... 90% of BW would still be a no hang but be >80% of the MVC.
One more aspect is integrating active pulling with the fingers into the skill set, comparable to practice of active pulling with the toes. For myself, after I used the concentrics and isometric overcoming exercises, I found I was more than simply selecting grip positioning to make use of the hold and now notice the active engagement of the fingers and this intention to pry the hold from the wall as necessary. Several clients respond the same, feeling better contact with the hold and able to make better use through a range of motion. With the active toe exercises, I know many climbers who saw a sudden breakthrough with a few weeks of this, and definitely several climbers finding those deep but severe incuts on a project or similar to be far more manageable and useful. Would not surprise me if, with the gentle incut of campus rungs and the significant change of position during the 1-5-9 that this could be at play.
Tried it and although it did make the fingers feel better/less stiff (when not climbing), it had no effect on my climbing. However I do find low intensity (ARC) training very usefull, as for me it doesn't seem to have any negative effect on my max strength, whilst increasing my endurance and it still makes the fingers and whole body feel better/more activated.
Arc-ing typically won’t affect max strength. Nice way to finish off a session actually, though there are plenty of alternatives. (And does depend slightly on details of the intervention)
I have a question i thought of after watching your video involving hypertrophy for muscles. BFR or what method would be best to train with to limit forearm pump? Like do i need bigger forearms and focus hypertrophy or will training strength do this for me as well?
From doing this routine so far I've noticed that my fingers don't necessarily feel stronger on smaller edges, but I can engage on command way better where before I struggled at lot more at generating force quickly on small holds.
Very well made and interesting video. I would have found it more compelling however if the _frequency_ of the routine (twice a day) that is another big difference (besides intensity) with the usual protocols. It’s too bad that the frequency component is not explored much when mapping that protocol to existing research.
Thanks! We did account for frequency when doing our analysis.
Very good video
Dr. Hoops! Your content is climbing-science gold.
Honestly I’ve only ever used his no hang routine for finger rehab and have had great success multiple times doing so. Once my fingers feel good enough after an injury (again using this as a rehab protocol) I go straight back to one arm lifts like Yvette Gravelle and sessioning on my fingery home board.
Pretty darn solid approach 💪🏻
Agreed with Dan! In fact, I do prescribe a routine similar to this for rehab routinely.
Maybe you should keep it up in the background after rehab, and see if you dont end up with less finger issues moving forward?
i see you have videos explaining bicep pain but i saw a trainer who said my bicep pain was a result of me pulling with my biceps instead of my back and i was wondering if you have any advice on how to fix this? after i climb ive never had fatigue or soreness in my back which just proves i overuse my biceps causing them to hurt
@ Hooper's Beta: Related but different than the "pain" explanation: couldn't this work because the hangboarding routine is akin to ARC training (popularized by the Andersons' The Rock Climber’s Training Manual). That is, this routine is allowing Emil to heal and recover faster and therefore he can push himself harder in his training sessions. As a result, the growth is actually coming from his climbing, but this helps him recover from those sessions better hence "my fingers feel better."
The short answer is no, but it’s not an unreasonable idea.
4:00 just to clarify; there's miofybrilar hypertophy (I don't know how exactly write it) and sarcoplasmic hypertophy. First one is real muscle mass AKA protein in-build into the muscle fibers. Second one is more like water swell (but also some inter and intra muscular elements).
First one is much harder to gain but also stay longer when stop training, second one is quite fast, but it disappears pretty fast.
Just in case if someone is curious, cause it doesn't matter in this considerations.
I've been doing isometric hangboarding for 2 months and it's working great for me. In fact, I've changed my whole body dumbbell weight training program to focus on holding in place for a second or 2 on each rep. I've never been so strong and confident. Knowing that it takes 2 years to get to 80% tendon strengths vs 3-5 months for 80% muscle strength has revolutionized my training routine. I focus on my tendons instead of my muscles. No more tweaks or twinges in the pectoral and bicep muscles. Appreciate the Hooper perspective as well.
When you say holding in place for body weight training. Do you hold in the half way point of the exercise or the end
@@mormonboy25 good question and I edited my reply to clarify that I meant dumbbell training in the gym. And, yes, holding in place 2 to 3 seconds at random spots on each rep to make it more isometric... Whereas, the rest of my life I just tried to build muscle and count reps which almost always resulted in tendon injuries .. for me at least isometric and slowly building up the tendon strength is working very well :-)
Perhaps it is all about the mitochondria which produce ATP?
I used this protocoll with great benefits.
After 1 week I did 12 pull-ups instead of 6.
After 6 weeks I climbed 6b+ in the climbing halls instead of 6a.
I had no muscle increase.
I suppose that I improved my metabolism.
The top runners for 100 m produce about 7 times more ATP per second than an amateur runner.
They have trained their mitochondria to a maximum: more mitochondria per muscle cell and more efficient in output of ATP.
Training till failure implies damages of muscle cells and long training sessions.
Reparation takes time. It is a setback.
Is that really necessary?
Yes is the answer of all people who make their money by giving long lessons
or by renting their gyms.
Think of adaptation in our evolution.
We do not adapt to a single event/stimulus but to a series of stimulation - to repetition.
The repetitions do not require maximum.
As PT and a climber myself I highly appreciate your way of giving such quality content. Thank you all
Thank you for the kind words and support!
Have others experimented with low intensity hangboarding combined with BFR bands as briefly suggested in this video? I've been doing this once or twice a week off and on for 2 years and I've seen definite forearm muscle growth. I feel my fingers are more resilient as a result as well. It seems like it does make a difference for hypertrophy, but I'm not sure how much that matters for overall finger strength. Also, I asked Tyler Nelson directly about this and he was surprised to hear that I had muscle mass gains from BFR since that's not a typical result he sees.
I have. I don't know if it made me stronger but it allowed me to maintain a lot of my strength during a should injury and when I started climbing again strength felt like it came back much more quickly. I will also add that the reps felt like they also had some type nuanced value that the different crimp positions just felt more natural. Especially full crimp/half crimp. I would describe it as (used to be a basketball player) shooting the ball with one arm only 2 feet in front of the basic over and over and over again. Not that isn't going to give me the muscle strength to shoot 3 pointers but it will help me refine the movement until it becomes natural and "see the ball go through the basket". This also ties together interestingly with some of Tyler Nelsons research on closing your hand instead of holding static weight. The no feet hangboarding may be engaging that closing of fingers aspect to create finger pressure rather than weighting with body.
@@johannielsen463 That's very interesting. I concur with your experience that the 2 per days are good for teaching the body how to crimp in different positions. When I do them, since I'm not trying to pull "hard", I focus on the quality of my hand and finger position as well as the sensation of pulling evenly through all my fingers and even different parts of each finger at once. This could be a big part of why it works. Not just the pain threshold described in the video, but building the neural networks thru repetition to get to the "ideal" crimp positions more naturally. It can be used as technique training for various grips.
@@chazott I agree. Reminds me of the saying "Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect". I feel like this is under utilized in climbing when it comes to practicing form and fundamental positions. Of course you need to supplement this with your power training. But I know for a fact I have been stronger on max hangs than I am now but yet I climb much harder and consistently harder and % of strength feels far more available on the wall (of course with anything I realiz and acknowledge there are always a lot of factors that go into progression and performance just saying...). Also on the BFR note I find more that adding blanket strength it almost prepares me to absorb more gains from my workouts both in the form of blood flow and quality to area and tissue/vasculation...also on the BFR note I think I have noticed a correlation with power endurance and endurance more than top end strength but in the form of power endurance this many times feels more applicable on the wall than top end strength to me.
Would you define tendon stiffening and increased density as similar?
Is there a spreadsheet with the exact protocol? Do you do each hang for 10 sec, followed by 20 sec of rest before the next hang?
Could this help with pulley rehab? I've been stuck with a pulley injury for like 6-8 months now and didn't rehab it properly at the start but have been being pretty careful with it for the past 4 months without it fully recovering. A4 on my middle finger. It feels like what I'm doing is working but it's been such a long time that I can't say for sure.
what if, low intensity on hangs bypass the active (muscles) organs and use mostly passive (tendons) ones? is it even possible? like if I do a low intensity hang maybe I just not recruit muscles since the force needed can be reeached passively by the tendons ligaments etc.
Don’t know if I missed you explaining it but did you cover active recovery? Increased blood flow to the fingers helps recover quicker from Emil’s other training?
Added an explanation for this in the pinned comment :)
Hello, thanks for your content :) one question i always asks myself: can you do this routine right before a campus board session ? Or in general if you want to increase your hand's health and your contact strength, how should you plan together hangboard and campusing in a weekly program for exemple ? Thanks for your answer :)
If you’re doing ultra-low intensity hangs you can essentially do them whenever you want since the load is so low
-Emile
Not an expert, but one explanation you didn't talk about seems to me to deserve more attention. You talk about this and that benefit that have only been proven for strenuous exercise, close to failure. But what we are talking about here is a near maximum force -- just one that doesn't feel as close as it actually is. Hanging for 80% of max duration feels far more mellow than hanging to failure, but it is still very close to a maximum workout in force terms. The force you can sustain for 5 seconds is barely less than the amount you can sustain for 4, just as the amount of weight you can lift for 5 reps is barely distinguishable from the weight you can lift 4 times. In contrast, the difference between a "moderate" workout and a "strenuous" one is usually much larger,. So I would not be in a hurry to dismiss the possibility that Emil actually is gaining most of the benefits of a strenuous workout with his barely-less-than-strenuous-but-much-less-painful-and-injury-prone version.
The most difficult thing for me personally, was adapting the routine to my strength level. Emil's recommendations of pulling around 80% of what it would take to get off the ground obviously don't translate well from him (a very very strong athlete even prior to the experiment) to the average climber. For me, that was too much load and unsustainable. However, it's equally hard for me to estimate "too little" load in this routine. :D
Managing and estimating the load is definitely one of the big downsides of doing hangs this way, which is why we mention block pulls later in the video. You could also use a pulley, harness, and weight to take weight off your hangs, but that tends to be more cumbersome than block pulls.
what i have learned from all of this video is that big muscles = big strength and my brain is being a scared crybaby all the time and i need to work out in any way to make it less of a scared crybaby.
Definitely way too many variables to say with certainty the protocol improved their performance. Also, not a big enough sample size if we want to get really technical 🙂
Hah fair! Quite the small sample size :)
50% sure (or unsure!) it's placebo; especially with all these new feedbacks from climbers you can see on reddit, etc. "wow this is amazing". I think people WANT IT to be a finger silver bullet. Like people buying collagen.
This. Plus reducing injuries and tweaks.
@@middle-agedclimber I really wanted it to work. It always made my fingers more tweaky :(
Yeah placebo is a really interesting topic because it can actually lead to actual changes like changes in pain just based off the belief it will work. We see this in literature all the time, it's powerful!
Wait, supplementing collagen is a placebo effect as well?
@@HoopersBeta it pays off to be a believer not a sceptic :)
could it be that this routine helps with faster recovery since youre muscles will be watmed up for a litle while
Have you tried this yourself? It is good to be hyper objective, but I am pretty surprised you haven't tried this and had your own results.
Personally I think you are right that it impacts other variables, specifically it has a huge mindset impact as it keeps climbing and the motions of climbing in your mind every day. You really feel like you are doing 'something' constantly.
There are thousands of protocols out there, it would take quite some time to try them all before forming an opinion on each based on research.
Sub-max hangs have been around for a long time and widely used for rehab/prehab purposes long before all the hype. Both Jason and I have used them on and off over the years and never experienced any sort of huge performance improvements, nor would we expect to, nor were we using them for that purpose.
-Emile
My current hypothesis is that he was healthier and able to train harder, so it was the better training that this helped him do, not the specific protocol, that worked
Great video! I do want to ask, is moon boarding sufficiently high intensity for my high intensity finger training (I am climbing v4 to v5 on the moon board)? I mostly use my hangboard with BFR and low intensity at the recommendation of my PT (and anecdotally, I recover better if I do a sub max bfr hangboard session after climbing).
Moonboarding is certainly a form of high intensity finger training, though a bit more chaotic than just high intensity hangboarding.
@Hooper's Beta more fun, though.
Perhaps it is all about the mitochondria which produce ATP?
I used this protocoll with great benefits.
After 1 week I did 12 pull-ups instead of 6.
After 6 weeks I climbed 6b+ in the climbing halls instead of 6a.
I had no muscle increase.
I suppose that I improved my metabolism.
The top runners for 100 m produce about 7 times more ATP per second than an amateur runner.
They have trained their mitochondria to a maximum: more mitochondria per muscle cell and more efficient in output of ATP.
Training till failure implies damages of muscle cells and long training sessions.
Reparation takes time. It is a setback.
Is that really necessary?
Yes is the answer of all people who make their money by giving long lessons
or by renting their gyms.
Think of adaptation in our evolution.
We do not adapt to a single event/stimulus but to a series of stimulation - to repetition.
The repetitions do not require maximum.
Funny how I saw their 2+ year old video a few days ago and now you upload a sequel.
We tried to have this done even closer to Emil's recent vid but this one was a big project!
This is the second video and i think i posted it before, just because he did the hangs at light weight two times a day doesn't mean he did nothing else. if you watch some of Emil's videos while he trained the 1-5-9 and other feats, he did this over a period of time. he worked hard for the 1-5-9 as well as 200% body weight pullup, while that was str focused, these was tendon focused. there is no doubt that he did every day routines for climbing and working out. i believe he mentioned he did not do these hangs on climbing days (or maybe if he climbed morning he'd skip the morning session).
with that said, gains and losses from Emil's video cannot be done just by that one exercise, you'd have to understand what he actually did over that lockdown period to make those gains and it was a crap ton of pullups and other workout activities.
It is a bit mind boggling that people continue to attribute completely unrelated strength achievements to these ultra low-intensity hangs. There seems to be a significant misunderstanding of the anatomy and mechanisms behind grip strength and hangboarding, as well as the classic convolution of correlation and causation. Of course, trying to take a less cynical view, I'm glad people are psyched on training and experimenting with different protocols :)
-Emile
@@HoopersBeta the only thing I could really say that might contribute to some actual gains from this exercise is the fact that it primed the muscles and tendons allowing them to be warm and relaxed for when he does actual hard climbing. It’s almost like hand putty. As they say the best thing for arthritis is to keep movement. Well at my age I have to say my fingers like the low intensity hangs and keeps them healthy for when I really need to climb.
yeah I think he was in a very psyched period where he trained hard and rested enough and the low no hang thing was just sprinkled on top and identified as the main contributor for no reason. I mean, you HAVE to be psyched like crazy to stick with this extremely boring twice a day hanging protocol in the first place... + some placebo and confidence boost after doing all this before retesting.
Would this hangboard protocol be OK to add on top of another hangboard protocol? Doing Emil's on top of max hangs 1/2x a week?
Yes -- provided you keep the intensity of the "Emil hangs" low. This can be a bit inconsistent if you're just guessing how much weight you're hanging, which is one reason I often prefer farmer crimps/block pulls (easy to track the weight). Regardless, as long as the extra hangs feel very easy, you can pretty much do them as frequently as you like.
-Emile
Great video - but I feel like there is one very important aspect that wasnt addressed - specifically that Emil and Felix didnt just decrease intensity when hangboarding, but the decreased intensity also allowed them to INCREASE frequency. With high intensity its not common to hangboard twice a day within a few hours especially because of fatigue.
By spreading the load throughout the day isn't it possible THAT would make their bodys adapt to the type of load thats suddenly more common the same way for example a carpenter will adapt to have much better endurance for the type of work they do despite not performing high intensity, fatiguing tasks but rather repeating many low intensity tasks throughout the day?
Perhaps it is all about the mitochondria which produce ATP?
I used this protocoll with great benefits.
After 1 week I did 12 pull-ups instead of 6.
After 6 weeks I climbed 6b+ in the climbing halls instead of 6a.
I had no muscle increase.
I suppose that I improved my metabolism.
The top runners for 100 m produce about 7 times more ATP per second than an amateur runner.
They have trained their mitochondria to a maximum: more mitochondria per muscle cell and more efficient in output of ATP.
Training till failure implies damages of muscle cells and long training sessions.
Reparation takes time. It is a setback.
Is that really necessary?
Yes is the answer of all people who make their money by giving long lessons
or by renting their gyms.
Think of adaptation in our evolution.
We do not adapt to a single event/stimulus but to a series of stimulation - to repetition.
The repetitions do not require maximum.
An unexplored cause in this video could be increased recovery through this routine. It is known that sinews do not have a lot of bloodflow which increases recovery time significantly. Could it be that this routine, in combination with high intensity training, accelerates recovery?
I'm a beginner, and boulder once a week. Just ONE session a week of the routine has my fingers feel a lot better.
Glad that it makes your fingers feel better!
For finger health/rehab, do you still recommend the modification of longer hold times (30s+)?
In earlier stages yes longer hold times can be more useful as they are also associated with lower intensity of effort. So you can load/stimulate the tissue without overloading it.
@@HoopersBeta thank you so much! With something like this, we are hanging and pulling at 40% of our Max pull strength, is that right?
TIL why my finger (overload) pain always disappears when doing light hangboarding. Never had success with stopping climbing or stopping training. Most success was always when still keep going but with reduced intensity.
Yeah I don't see much success at all from extended periods of complete rest. Our tissues do like to be loaded safely to recover properly. Both from a physical and likely psychological standpoint as well.
I tried the 2x per day routine but for some reason it was super exhausting (mentally) - it sapped my syche so I dropped it.
I think that's why there's no evidence/people reporting that they stick to it and it continued working in the long term. It's extremely boring and is very unlikely yielding any real gain in the long run.