SUBSCRIBE! Which form do you think is stronger and overall effective? Discord - discord.gg/4FfHxHxqPz Twitter - twitter.com/AventSan if you want your video done - cash.app/$JORDANALLOWSIT
You weren't very specific, if you mean as a form then I don't really know. But in terms of end of gt goku vs BATTLE OF GODS GOKU then I don't even think that question needs to be answered
@@michaelbarbour3864 20 million times. If you want the math, it's Goku and Vegeta at max power combined then times 100. That multiplier times 400 is 20 million
So is ssj1,2 and 3 nothing new ssjg is not supposed to do that it’s a form that don’t focus on raw power but it’s abilities, ssj4 is regressing them the more they think and have a mindset of a average Saiyan they regress and don’t grow or develop which is why goku is leagues above any other saiyan because of his mindset and personality, why do you think sayians like radtiz, Nappa even vegeta at the time didn’t grow or develop as much they should have because they had that average sayian mindset.
That's a gross understatement. Thematically the god forms were on point. No they didn't dig too deep into the oozaru, but they landed heavily on the themes present throughout the end of z. More of gokus training and work with the gods amping him, rather than dormant instincts. The idea that goku absorbed the god power and just stacks all of his other transformations is insane.
I am always on Akira Toriyama's side. His style has always been simplistic, and I like that. Forms like SSG and SSB will always represent true power beyond regular SS forms to me, unlike SS4. RIP Akira Toriyama the legend 😢
Tho ssg definitely has better feats than ssj4, ssg weirdly has a healing factor built into it so you have a high multiplier and healing which makes the form like really good
Nope . Baby's Revenge death ball catching Goku from subspace which is outside time and space after Kibito kai already got there after vanishing with Goku in instant teleportation and warping him to sugoroku space which is established further in reach and on a higher scale as kais are stated to have no power over it abd can't reach it , while also being " between time and space " and capable of making anyone " wander forever " in it makes it the infinite not bound by time and space which is greater than all previous realms , not only is that already greater but other than threatening existence erasure in statement , even with the direct hit it put Goku in a state of neither alive nor dead , which are binary oppositions being above which at the same time makes something outerversal , Ssj4 Goku tanked that attack in first appearance no effort .
@@Vindication1134 " pSeUdosCieNtiFic mUmbO jUmbO " while cries about a comparison of fictional characters powerlevels according to their fictional world and rules .
Let’s not forget that GT has some wacky ass plot convenient power jumps. There are times where base form Kid Goku will be just as strong - if not stronger - than SSJ4 Goku after beating Baby. It takes a bit of paying attention and cross referencing how power scaling works in the Saiyan/Frieza saga to really gauge how strong Goku gets in GT, but it’s kinda freakin’ wild how strong he gets by implication. Also, SSJ4 seems to have an adaptive power level based on enhanced Zenkai boosts from energy restoration and adapting to unique abilities. When Eis Shenron used the flash freeze ability twice on SSJ4 Goku, he was able to break free easily from the second attack because- in his words - once a technique is used on a SSJ4, it won’t work twice. This means that something like Guldo’s time freeze and Babidi’s brainwashing wouldn’t be effective on second use.
@@Toddles he did when he threw the revenge deathball and the kibito and shin's fusion saved Goku they wanted to teleport back but the realm was gone the attack literally removed it from existence and they couldn't teleport back
@@Atriedits4040 he didnt destroy it, but rather manipulated the entire space due to the shockwave of the deathball which interfered with the entire process Logically thats actually an impressive speed feat, considering how much better kai kai is than IT, as the shovkwaves moved faster before kibitoshin could go from point A to B
Which technically means that gt goku is always stronger because super goku is before the end of z if we go time line wise but also super wasn't a thing
@@zrampagegaming2674 They're two different continuities, so Super's scaling does not affect GT's power levels whatsoever. Such a cope from GT supremacists. GT Goku's timeline does not have god, it only follows off of Z.
@@kujoova tbf they did say "but also super wasn't a thing," they just mean GT Goku has a MASSIVE head start on power of Super purely because of the comparatively massive timeskip of like 10 years or so
The boost in power from SSG is mainly the God ki, it would be ludicrous to state otherwise since that would be implying the form itself is at the lowest x320K and from what we really see in all of DBS, that's simply impossible especially when involving characters like Krillin who was able to hurt Goku in SSB. This is the definitive reason why it's so hard to find the true multiplier of SSG. That being said, SSG wins through feats since the full scale of SS4 outside of DBH and DBSH were never fully explored to its highest potential and there's no other defining comparison we can use other than this
When did krillin hurt goku in ssg blue? You can't be talking about the recruitment arc when goku was testing krillin to see if he would run away from someone as strong as a ssj blue. I remember the Kamehameha Clash and Android 18 helping Krillin, but that is it. I remember him doing good against regular ssj
Wait but isn't Base Goku Gt as strong as he was in SS3 during the Buu Saga then says Rildo was stronger than Buu being Kid Buu (since it was the last time they fought) He would be at x160k without the use of SS4 because 400x400. Baby was Stronger in his Baby Vegeta 1 form than that Goku and Goku SS4 ate punches from a Baby Vegeta 2 without any type of Effort later down then line Goku in Gt keeps getting Stronger as he fights more enemies as GT goes on. Omega Shenron who is the Strongest enemy of GT needed a Universal Scale Spirit Bomb in order to Kill him. If not for his regeneration Goku would of killed him with the Dragon Fist that he used against him.
while i do agree he shouldnt have merged continuities, Super still is over GT in terms of power, and SSG offers more than SSj4 ability wise and power wise, since we do not know the multipliers for ssj4
@@brendobrando3277we dont know the multipliers for the god forms either, other than SSB is 50x stronger than SSG, and SSB Kaiokenx20 is 1000x stronger than SSG, and UI is stronger than that by an unknown variable. As for abilities, SS4 has hax that allows a technique to not work the 2nd time it is used on him, and this is consistent throughout the series. The SSG healing technique was only shown once and isn't consistent throughout DBS.
@@righteousone5119 ssb goku literally does that same thing where he says that when hits time skip worked on him once, it wouldnt work on him anymore in their second meeting mind you he wasnt even in ssbkk when he said that, just base ssb. Hit can also improve his timeskip on the fly to bypass goku's resistances but STILL says that the technique wouldnt work on a casual ssb goku, hit even says that using timeskip on goku would be too charitable, the reason i used this is to show that, THAT trait is not a ssj4 exclusive trait, it is a saiyan trait. also ssg is built on the multipliers of a hypothetical ssj3 vegito, but thats more of a powerscaling standpoint back to ssg it showing this healing trait once is a very flawed argument to use when ssj4 only showed the "adapting" thing once and never shows it in the series again. so saying ssg showed healing only once and then saying it is invalid in some sense is very very flawed
Obviously the only drawback to GT Goku isn't less stamina. Shorter limbs, as one example, puts him at a disadvantage. That's not all, but I also refuse to believe Goku didn't undergo a power nerf as well. And then coming back to stamina, it conceptually doesn't make too much sense that he has less stamina as a kid. What I think would make more sense is if Goku's body was too small and/or immature to handle the stress/transformation of SS3/SS4. Putting the reasoning on stamina seems like a critical oversight to me. Lastly, I mean it is worth noting the Perfect Files is decently known to have errors and nonsensical information, so... If Goku surpassed Gohan in BoG, then it's only because Gohan slacked on training. Otherwise Goku doesn't otherwise have the potential to surpass his son pre-God Ki (and even with god ki tbh). Um, where was it confirmed that Goku is massively stronger than Kid Buu by BoG? There's a consistent lore in the series of solo training (for the Saiyans at least) not yielding any significant growth in strength, so time gaps and continuing to train doesn't mean much of anything. As for the real discussion. It's pretty obvious the SSG forms are incoherently written/handled. When you look at THE REST of DBS, it's pretty apparent in retrospect that SS4 is the stronger form. SSG forms lost ratio is not just laughable but embarrassing, and ontop of that, side characters (including Gohan) and regular enemies are able to keep up with or surpass both SSG forms. Dude goes super saiyan in "god" form and still needs to rely on the Kioken stack to overwhelm numerous characters of all kinds in the series. It's not really that complicated as people make it out to be, SS4 is stronger.
shorter limbs is understandable, you could say that put him at a disadvantage(even though we know the size of the character doesn’t matter if they’re at a high level of skill and strength, an example being ssj2 gohan and grade 4 ssj goku.) but saying you refuse to believe he didn’t get a power nerf is purely subjective. you wanting him to get weaker doesn’t mean he did, he only lost stamina. it also would make sense for him to have less stamina as a kid because it’s quite literally a part of life that you gain stamina as you become older, till you start to leave your prime. and the whole thing with saiyans is that they stay in their primes longer. but everything else made lots of sense. just doesn’t really seem good to go against what the show says and make up your own things to me, but that’s all i had to say about it
I really dislike Super, this notion that Goku surpassed Ult Gohan in what a year or 2 is crazy. Especially considering he trained for 7 yes pretty much nonstop
It does make sense though? Goku at the end of the Buu saga was arguably on the same playing field as Ult Gohan, I personlly think he wasn’t as strong but you can definitely argue that Goku was stronger than Gohan when he fought Kid Buu. After that Goku continuously kept training for like you said a year or 2. This story had Goku jump from a power level of 90 000 to 3 million in less than one day. There’s no reason to think that Goku was not able to catch up and become stronger than ultimate Gohan in the few years he trained before BoG
It’s not an ocean because it’s not true. The reason why it’s not true because Goku was already stronger than go hon. This is why I went Vegeta surpassed Goku the emphasis was oh Vegeta surpass super Saiyan three Goku reiterated by Master Roshi. There was no mention of Gohan because go home was never the strongest. You see in each arc of DBZ, in dragon ball super ties in specifically detailed events of what matters most. Against which villain is the strongest against in comparison to which Z fighter was the strongest able to match up against Sevilla. What does that villain with stronger or whether the hero was stronger. How they beat that feeling. Everything matters. In The Buu Arc, none of the Saiyan warriors got a Zen Chi boost. They got stronger by training traditionally or they got stronger by means of magic/mystical elements. But none of them I repeat none of them got a Zenkai Boost. This highlights that Goku was the strongest the entire time. Because Goku never grew in power. All the power he gained was from the seven years of training in other world. Goku never revealed his maximum power level until he fought against Kid Buu. Goku was heavily suppressed until that time period. This is the number one reason why Dragon Ball super ties in Goku as the strongest Z fighter in The Buu Arc. The manga DBZ and the anime DBZ Kai are not separate continuities. They don’t go into different directions. Akira Toriyama before his untimely demise, said the manga DBZ and the anime DBZ Kai are synonymous to each other. That means they are one in the same canon. One replaces the other and the other backs to one. They are to be treated as the same. He told a story in both the manga and the anime that are the same. The only difference is maybe the verbal vernacular and how something is described might say something differently but the end result is the same. When it’s saying something differently it’s using different words that’s what I mean to say but it means the same exact thing. That’s what so many of you guys don’t forget you guys have created a problem where there was none. We all agree we all know we understand in the freezer arc Goku became the strongest in the universe. In the cell arc Gohan became the strongest in the universe. In The Buu Arc, Goku was the strongest in the universe. Know what I said he didn’t become he already was. He was a Strongest Z fighter force for good in the universe. But he wasn’t stronger than Kid Buu. Nobody was Goku collecting energy from every Z fighter and everybody in the planet. But when he just had energy from the Z fighters including his own son, google said this is not enough to beat Kid Buu. And there’s a mountain of evidence both in the manga and anime that states why and that alludes to and I guess detailed hints on Goku’s being the strongest. You even have DBZ movie 13 wrath of the dragon that is technically canon, because it fits within the timeline of the main timeline. Akira Toriyama stated any DBZ movie that does not or cannot fit within the meantime I takes place in an alternate timeline. Movie 13 Takes Pl. literally over one month after defeat of Kid Buu. So why is this contention why is there this disorder why is there not an understanding when it comes to the third arc a.k.a. the Buu arc? That is because many of the fans are creating a false narrative a head cannon a.k.a. wishful thinking on who they want to be the strongest instead of listening to excepting and digging deeper into the details that dissect who the genuinely strongest Z fighter in the universe is. Which is Goku so much so that the sequel of sorts which is a DragonBallZGuru Super even K’NEX this that Goku was the strongest the whole time. And it goes against your sentiment in many other fans intimate who says Gohan actually goes against the manga of DBZ it goes against the anime of DBZ Kai and it completely contradicts everything Super has said.
Goku wasn't on Ultimate Gohan's level, at least nothing that showed that he was. Unless I missed something. But he was stronger than in thr Buu Sag most definitely and his God form would far surpass a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito.
At no point did it seem like Goku closed the enormous gap between him and Ult Gohan during the Kid Buu fight. Especially the fact kid buu is weaker then Base Super Buu
One thing I’ll ever understand is why people think ssj4 is so much stronger than ssjgod or the top GT characters are so easily above the top super characters when GTs cosmology is far smaller than supers
Can you do hypothetical scenarios of the amazing characters please!!! For example: Ayanokoji vs Alice and borderland games Akiyama vs COTE exams And even More! Do not stop unloading!!!
It should be worth noting that Pan sensed Golden Great Ape Goku’s KI and noted that he was getting stronger and stronger, and then im middle of Goku transitioning from Golden Great Ape to SSJ4, Baby noticed a change in his KI, debunking the idea that some people thought that SSJ4 is equal to the Golden Great Ape. It terms of Super Saiyan 4 itself, while it can be argued that it wouldn’t start out as powerful as Super Saiyan God(it depends on the user since SSJ4 is implied to be similar be a type of Potential Unleashed state), it has the ability to reach since when Base Goku received Saiya Power from Gohan, Goten and Trunks in their Super Saiyan states and then turns Super Full Power Saiyan 4 afterwards, Trunks noted that “He’s taken his max power as Super Saiyan 4 and extended even further!” Example of Super Saiyan 4’s power is in SDBH: Ultra God Mission(and official Dragon Ball story mind you), is CC Goku and Xeno Goku were equal from Base to Super Saiyan 3. Then when entering their unique forms, Super Saiyan 4 Goku is shown to being able to fight equally Super Saiyan Blue and even UI(-Sign-) when entering the Limit Breaker version. This shows that while Super Saiyan 4 debatably may not start out as being strong as Super Saiyan God, it OFFICIALLY has the potential(pun intended) to reach the realm of gods. I know that people may not view Super Dragon Ball Heroes, however the Dragon Ball franchise as a whole, including its main stories has always had head-scratching moments when it comes to power scaling and the fight between the two Goku’s had shown a clear scale as to how strong they and their transformations were compared to each other.
I forget which specific material it was that said this but fusion with the potara earings is apparently supposed to be both of the user's max power, combined, then times 100. So if you did a potential ss3 vegito, it would be SSj3 Goku + SS2 Vegeta which is a 500x multiplier. Then times 100 is 50,000, then times a potential super saiyan 3 vegitio which is an extra 400 is on paper is a 20,000,000x multiplier and I just did all of this for nothing because this is the exact number in the video alrighttttttttttt
Honestly disagree with the conclusion, I'd put SSJ4 over SSG 1: In a guide that includes both Ssj4 and God, Ssj4 is called the ultimate form 2: GT takes place after the anime and movies, while Super takes place after the Manga, the anime has universal feats far earlier on 3: Using the omega shenron's statement here is like using the "I can destroy the galaxy" statements in super to try and low ball it
the second argument is just useless, we are talking about the power of the form itself not who is stronger goku ssg or goku ssj4, but anyway goku ssg has an low outerversal feat in first fight with beerus so
What are you waffling about man. GT being after the movies is pure speculation. All you can say is that cooler is canon. Where was Broly out of all ppl when everyone got released from hell? It’s clearly just a Easter egg. Also gt scales nowhere close to super.
I disagree with you with the vague statement of ssj4 being the “ultimate form” broly has been stated to be the strongest man its just to make it seem cooler, also ssg has god in its title while ssj4 is just a continuation, ssg has it beat in narrative and multiplier
Very incorrect scaling video. 500x multiplier for golden Oozaru is just flat-out incorrect because Goku and Baby Vegeta achieve it and it's the basis of Ss4's power stated by the perfect files "Golden Oozaru is the basis of its super power!!" so if it had a set multiplier Goku should had lost. GT also has good feats for example, Baby Vegeta's first death ball warped the fabric of space time, shook the infinite area between dimensions and caught Kibito Kai using his Kai kai technique which is implied to be instant, this feat is even better than ultra instinct sign Goku shaking the null realm. SS4 has no multiplier as stated by the perfect files. "The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!!". SS4 is one of the strongest transformations and isn't just a power up shown by its adaptability, it's stability and it's link to saiyan biology. DBS has very strong characters but turns out GT does to.
Vegito's base is ((A x B) x ?) dependent on the relationship of the fusees'. His base is drastically higher than anyone elses in Z, so that should also be considered when referring to Super Saiyan God's multiplier. A hypothetical Vegito, with ((Vegeta * Goku post buu) x 10)) then x400 for a SSJ3 = the baseline for God Goku.
I disagree, for a few reasons: 1-goku didnt fully absorb ssj god power (if he did was a temporary thing) because otherwise that means that several characters have achieved a power equal or even greater than ssj god easily, cabba was almost on vegeta base level (that would mean he would be almost on ssj god level which is more than ridicoulous) gohan, if goku base was ssj god level that means his blue form is leagues above it so gohan somehow suprassed not only base goku (which should be stronger than ssj god) but was able to face ssj blue? Frost is above ssj god level? Zamasu (im not against him being strong but goku using ssj2 means zamasu was 200x stronger than ssj god?) It creates ton of plot holes and for me that makes no sense 2- Gt goku is AT LEAST 10 years (possibly more because of the time chamber) older than super Goku which means his base power was far greater. 3- gt goku in base was probably stronger than ssj3 goku at beggining of super so even if the multiplier for ss4 is lower his diference in base power should at least put them on the same level
1. Thats not a valid reasson, cabba shouldnt even be able Stronger then buu saga Goku in base but yet he destroy him in ssj3 in base, super powerscaling sucks
@@Stopscrolling.P its a valid reason, super power scaling makes no sense which is one more reason to believe ssj 4 is at least capable of facing ssj god (at least if things made a bit of sense)
Here's the problem with this debate. Even if SSB(Yeah Super Saiyan Blue, I know what I said) and SSJ4 were equal in their first appearance, the God forms would still be stronger. If SSG Goku and Strongest form 2 baby is around SSJ3 Vegito level, Super Saiyan 4 would still be weaker than SSG even if we say SSJ4 is 100 times stronger than the initial multiplier of golden great ape(500x Boost). Gt Goku has a stronger base and the stronger you think that base is, the weaker SSJ4 is than SSG. Lets say SSB and SS4 are equal to SSJ3 Vegito. I'll use Vados's scaling since that's the most recent multiplier for potara. Base Buu Saga/Pre-Bog Goku: 1 SSG Goku: 400,000 SSB Goku: 20,000,000 Base Gt Goku: 400 SSJ4 Goku: 20,000,000 SSJ3 Vegito: 20,000,000 Super Saiyan God would be a 400,000 times multiplier while SSJ4 would be a 50,000 times multiplier. Blue would be overkill. I will note that both should be stronger than SSJ3 Vegito, I only used it as an example. I also know base GT goku is stronger than SS3 Goku but the weaker base Gt Goku is, the stronger SS4 is. I'm also blatantly ignoring that SSG is stronger than Vegito so I think I was fair to Gt Goku.
Personally disagree on how you scale GT, Goku can get to uni by upscaling Buuhan from Rildo, Golden Great Ape wouldn’t be a 500x multiplier, since that would never be able to catch up with Baby, and SSJ4 is far greater than Golden Great Ape since Goku was able to keep up with Baby, who had 1000x the Golden Great Ape multiplier
I never liked SSG. I like SSGB. SS4 I have issues with but it’s still better than SSG. SSG always seemed lazy and terrible looking. Vegeta made it cool later though in the Broly movie.
I know ssj4 is a superior transformation than ssjgod why? ssjgod is like an additional element the reason it looked so good in the beginning is because everyone shared ki with Goku on top of ssjgod before fighting Beerus but as soon as it ended regular ssj was doing fine it's a stat boost but when later when goku found Vegeta training under whis he struggled with the same training thus the stat boost ended... and look at ssj4 Vegeta anyone who learns ssj4 gets a real stat boost while in the transformation and it's available to anyone who can handle the oozaru form and not some weird godly guess
Golden Great Ape would have to be at least 8x stronger than SSJ3, since Baby went from his SSJ equivalent to what is most likely his SSJ3 equivalent after beating SSJ3 Goku and was still surpassed by Golden Great Ape Goku. So 500x base (or only 1.25x SSJ3) wouldn't really work with that power progression. I assume that Golden Great Ape is actually SSJ3 + Oozaru instead of SSJ1 + Oozaru, since the multipliers are more consistent there. And if you want to be technical, SSJ3 can be considered a mutation of SSJ1 due to Toriyama mentioning in a 2014 Saikyo Jump interview that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are just powered up variants of SSJ1, and that SSJ1 could potentially be trained to the point of equaling their multipliers without any drawbacks. So retroactively (this info was revealed _way_ after GT concluded), you can say Oozaru + SSJ would use SSJ3 multipliers anyways. Then, since Baby also became a Golden Great Ape and still lost to SSJ4 when both were brought back to full power, you can say that SSJ4 is at least a 10x mult on top of that, bringing it to 100x SSJ3 or 40,000x base minimum. Still most likely weaker than SSJG, who upscales a theoretical SSJ3 Vegito (who is at the very least 160,000x base).
He's actaully far higher than that tbh, because think of it that way, we have ssj3 goku who is 400x stronger than base, we have ssj gotenks alone probably as strong as ssj3 goku due to fighting super buu and even holding back, making gotenks ssj3 400x on top of 400x, which would make it 160.000x, now we have gohan who is above ssj3 gotenks making him also above 160.000x, we have buu who is still most likely above gotenks as well, making him 160.000x, we have piccolo who is probably ssj level making him 50x, buu absorbed all 3 of them, meaning it will be 160.000 × 160.000 × 160.000 × 50 = 204,800,000,000x Now we have base vegito alone in base form at least equal to buuhan, making him have that multiplier, now we have ssj which is also 50 × 204,800,000,000 = 10,240,000,000,000×... SSJG is very highly underestimated in terms of multipliers (sorry for acting like a nerd)
Ssj god was literally shaking the entire universe and almost destroyer of course is not even close the power gap is huge ssj4 as impressive as it is couldn’t even come close to destroying a universe
@@s.s.k7081 to be honest, most cant even scale GT accurately while others rely on Super’s inconsistent scaling Both sides have a valid reason to bicker on which better as both shows r practically impossible to accurately scale as feats are either over exaggerated or downplayed, and statements get ignored for the majority of The only way scaling can even be fixed is if toei or toyotaro does an official scaling by giving the forms an official multiplier to work with. Until that comes out ur basically gonna have the same arguments over and over again
I mean, I guess he technically isn't 'stronger' in his kid state. But GT Goku as an adult has a LOT more advantages compared to little goku. From being able to use super saiyan 3, to instant transmission and just in general reach.
I think gt and super just have bad scaling in general. GT is super inconsistent and one arc could have super saiyan 4 goku struggling against the main villain then have base goku demolishing a villain in the next arc after being stated to be the strongest ki he ever felt. Super's power scaling got so inflated they had to double back on statements, best example being beerus.
What are u talking about ? Best ki he has ever felt is a statement about Super baby form where Ssj4 didn't even exist yet . Never before the change state is Base Goku actually becoming stronger in base than what his ssj4 couldn't beat and there's always good reasoning for why in a couple fights his base beats an opponent after ssj4 lost cuz it's not all about power levels . Hell even when he wins in ssj4 after Baby arc its often not only about power level . But super does this weird god absorbing into base thing which makes people think he can stack all the transformations on that power to become stronger but ssjb is literally stated as ssj on top of god absorbed base in RoF guide with no other stacking mentioned in between .
He's weaker than God Goku from the BOG movie. That Goku is Universe+ and SSJ4 Goku is barely scraping those Galaxy levels. Anime SSJG Goku is far beyond the movie version, he's Multi Universal.
This isn’t nuanced enough, like Super Saiyan God with every other instance of comparison to Potara/Fusion has Vegetto/Gogeta or Kefla in their Base Forms outperforming Goku in his God Forms. Super Saiyan 4 has a direct comparison to Super Saiyan Potara in guides and GT implies only Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta supersedes Yi Xing Long And speaking of, the over-time thing doesn’t really matter here, he can gather all his minus energy into single attacks and we even saw that his corrosion wasn’t even destroying cities instantly. Like using the same comparison, Piccolo Daimao destroying a city instantly would be more impressive.
No if goku combine ssj with great ape wont do a thing if ssj3 goku can barely do damage to baby in ssj3 what's a golden great ape which is combined with ssj will only be 500x a 25% boost which wont make a difference at all so he combined ssj3 with great ape and not ssj1 with great ape
SSJ4 wins in terms of cool factor and design. Based on power alone, I have to give it to SSJ Red. Even though we knew nothing of gods of destructions and angels in DB: GT (as they weren't officially created as a concept yet), we can clearly see that Beerus is significantly stronger than Omega Shenron and it's not even close. This would imply that SSJ4 would get bodied by Beerus and SSJ Red would body Omega. Without official multipliers, like what @AventSir stated, it's impossible to officially scale them because for all we know, Omega Shenron's power could've been the same as Beerus in GT (since Beerus wasn't officially created as a concept yet), or he could be much weaker. Based on statements in the show, I believe SSJ Red is significantly stronger than SSJ4 but as a form and design wise, I vastly prefer SSJ4 and I wish that SSJ Red would've recycled SSJ4 as "SSG".
SSJ4 wins and it is not even close and here is why... When the 14th movie of DBZ was in production, it was stated that the events of Beerus and Goku's fight took place before the start of GT. If GT and DBZ Movie 14 are not separate timelines then Base Goku GT is more than enough to destroy SSG Goku
That’s if it remains canon, atm GT Goku per the timeline is just as strong as end Z Goku No God power, nothing as Super wasn’t conceptualized yet, if they retcon Gt then this argument is invalid.
@@L3Vł4TH4N.7 Movie 14 and DBS are separate timelines!! Movie 14 and DBGT according to Toei are connected, therefore GT Goku vs Goku Movie 14 isn't a conversation because EOZ Goku in base is above Movie 14 Goku.
@@spiritualwarrior5690 I’m not talking about Bio Broly I’m talking about First Movie Broly, sure they’re separate timelines but Gohan hadn’t reached SSJ2 yet, it’s fair to say he isn’t as strong as SSJ2 Gohan when fighting cell. But again if you wanna use separate timelines, GT isn’t canon and likely will be a separate timeline since the new forms we’re seeing now don’t coincide with GT. the closest we’ve seen to any SSJ4 is The new Broly movie where his eyes turn yellow like Goku’s, he acceses his ozaru form without having to turn into a great ape. But it isn’t ssj4 so for now GT is still not canon.
5:12 are you really implying that SSJ3 Goku was never stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta? What? Goku was always stronger than all of them in the Buu Arc. Vegeta stated this in both the manga DBZ and the anime DBZ Kai which are synonymous to each other which means they are both canon. 1) Kid Buu was referred to and specifically in detail mentioned and referenced as both The Original & The Strongest Majin Buu. 2) End of Z Goku specifically mentions and references Kid Buu’s defeat. Bcuz Kid Buu was the Strongest. There are both statements and feats that explain this. What this means is since this is a priority at the end of Z highlighting Kid Buu as both the Strongest Majin Buu & The Main Villain whom was defeated. It only makes sense, that any fan of GT should use that specific reference tying to kid blue because he is the main villain of the third ark. He was the strongest villain which is referenced and proven, and he was he had to be defeated which he was defeated. You guys continuing to skip over Kid Buu shows how disingenuous you are as a fan base. Even dragon ball super specifically mentions Kid Buu and uses kid Buse defeat as a referencing point. Specifically they mention him. They mention fat boot and they mention Kid Buu. Also because New information is highlighted in dragon ball super manga, which is Kid Buu absorbed God “ki” energy. It was transferred from Fat Buu to Kid Buu. This highlights how special Kid Buu is, because the strongest villain was reincarnated after his death into the strongest Earthling. 3) SSJ3 Goku was heavily suppressed versus Fat Buu. A heavily suppressed SSJ3 Goku is weaker than a Maximum Power Level SSJ3 Gotenks. The emphasis is on Goku’s being heavily suppressed. Not been anywhere near his maximum power level. So when Goku raise his maximum power level, he is far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. The story narrative proves Goku is far stronger than Gotenks. The story narrative also proves that Gohan is far stronger than Gotenks. It specifically mentions that Gohan became stronger than Vegeta and stronger than Gotenks. But it never mentions that Gohan ever became stronger than Goku. There is not one mention there is not one hint there’s not one specific dialogue or anything. That is because Goku was always stronger than Gohan. He was stronger than Gohan by leaps and bounds because Gohan is weaker than Vegeta prior to Vegeta getting a Zen Kai boost through the Majin Magic Power up. It is utterly foolish for any fan to try to insinuate that SSJ3 Goku is weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks. Here is why.. Super Buu (SSJ3 Gotenks Absorbed) reverted to Super Buu + Piccolo.. Goku is far stronger in his SSJ3 form, so is base form Gohan. Since Goku & Gohan is Stronger than Super Buu + Piccolo that means both Goku & Gohan are Massively Overwhelmingly Stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks bcuz SSJ3 Gotenks is equal to Super Buu w/o any absorptions. How are you and many other fans miss this is because you are downplaying Goku’s‘s strength. And upscaling Gotenks strength you’re also upscaling Gohan strength. But this isn’t the first time you guys are doing it but it’s one of the main pivotal points that you guys play especially in this arc. One thing that has never happened and never will happen is we have never lied on Goku strength we have never upscaled him and we have never down played him or discredited him. But this happens a lot to a lot of the fans of Gohan and a lot of the fans of a cheetah. There’s a lot of lies being told in favor of their character but that are not in favor of Goku. And that’s what’s happening here. Because the story narrative is being told and explain exactly as I just broke it down. This person is this wrong this person was this week this person gain power this person stronger than this person and that person but they’re definitely not stronger than this person. Because the story narrative is showing and telling and explaining. But certain fans are getting it twisted because their own internal bias comes into play. Their own internal head cannon a.k.a. wishful thinking override what is actually being shown in the story.
Super Saiyan 3 is Not a 400x Multiplier. The Story Narrative in The Manga DBZ & The Anime DBZ KAI dictates “Goku Is The Strongest In The Universe.” However, Base form Gotenks is slightly Stronger than Base Form Goku. This is what it is in both Manga & anime. What is established as true is this: 1) Super Saiyan 3 Goku Is The Strongest In The Universe. 2) Base Form Gotenks is Stronger than Base Form Goku. How is this possible? The Super Saiyan 3 Transformation must have a range. A minimum multiplier is 200x, the Maximum Multiplier is 300x. SSJ3 Gotenks can attain the minimum multiplier but does not have the maximum multiplier. SSJ3 Goku does have the Max Multiplier. It must be highlighted that Gotenks did not get stronger than Goku in his base form until after his hyperbolic time chamber training. Goku - 3,600,000,000. Super Saiyan Goku - 180,000,000,000. Super Saiyan 2 Goku - 360,000,000,000. Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Suppressed ) - 720,000,000,000. Gotenks - 4,000,000,000. Super Saiyan Gotenks - 200,000,000,000. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks - 800,000,000,000. (Stronger than heavily Suppressed SSJ3 Goku) This is what Goku meant when he said he would bring a warrior stronger than (him) the heavily suppressed version of Goku’s SSJ3. Super Buu - 800,000,000,000 is equal to SSJ3 Gotenks - 800,000,000,000. Base Form Gohan @ 900 Billion or 1 Trillion is Far Stronger than Gotenks & Super Buu. Goku 3.6 Billion x 300 = 1,080,000,000,000. One Trillion, Eighty Billion. Overwhelmingly Stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Super Buu 800 Billion = SSJ3 Gotenks 800 Billion. Super Buu 800 Billion + Piccolo 100 Billion = 900 Billion. Super Buu + Piccolo was afraid to fight a Suppressed SSJ3 Goku, Super Buu (SSJ3 Gotenks Absorbed) was dominating previously. Remember Goku only stepped in to fight, when Super Buu aka Fusion Buu held the advantage over Gohan & Goku. This means Gohan’s power level was most likely 1 trillion, and Goku at full power is 1 Trillion 80 Billion. This means both Goku and Gohan are in the same realm of power even though Goku is still far stronger. This excludes Gotenks bcuz Gotenks is not in the same realm of power and is far weaker than both of them individually. No matter whether you choose the manga DBZ or the anime DBZ Kai, this means unanimously SSJ3 Gotenks is the third strongest in the universe. The battle for The No. 1 Strongest In The Universe is between Goku & Gohan. You cannot trust a Power scaler, who puts Goku who is in the upper echelon of power, as the third strongest when clearly both the manga DBZ and the anime DBZ Kai which are synonymous to one another are saying the same thing. Goku is not the third strongest Goku is the Strongest. Gohan is the 2nd Strongest. For the argument sake, let’s pretend Goku is the second strongest. Even under those circumstances, that means it would make far more sense to misplace a Goku who is 2nd Strongest as No 1. But Goku is genuinely the strongest. And you’re taking him from number one and placing him as number three. If he were number two you’re not even gonna place an ad number to your steel placing him at number three. So what is shells is that many of the fans are heavily downplaying Goku’s strength. While simultaneously upscaling the strength of Gohan and Gotenks. This goes against the story narrative. Because again the story narrative has established that Goku is the strongest. Goku is the only ZHU fighter who kept on lying about how strong he truly was. He lied and he was hiding how strong he truly was. He was also the only Z fighter who is never impressed with Goten and Trunks has power levels, why is that? Because when you are the strongest everybody else who is so far from your power looks like an ant in comparison. Let’s not forget SSJ2 Gohan was far weaker than Vegeta, prior to Magic Majin power up. SSJ3 go tanks is not in the same realm of power as Goku and Gohan, because his power level is in the hundred billion place value. It’s in the high hundred billions place value, but it is still in the hundreds billions place value. Therefore he’s not in the same realm nor in the same level of power as both Goku and Gohan. So placing someone who’s on a lower level higher than someone who has a higher level is contradictory at its finest. Where do you agree with the multipliers in the numbers are not, you have to agree with the story narrative. Which is Goku is the strongest. And what’s funny enough is this lines up perfectly with DBZ movie 13 wrath of the dragon. Which takes place one over one month after the defeat of Kid Buu. Again this is reference point. Akira Toyama stated before his untimely demise, that any DBZ movie that does not fit perfectly within the main timeline, takes place in an alternate timeline similar to or identical to Future trunks alternate timeline. Hierarchy of power in DBZ movie 13 wrath of the dragon which is canon to the main timeline is 1) Super Saiyan 3 Goku. 2) Base Form Gohan. 3) Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. 4) Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta. Bro all the connections are there. All the feats are there. All the statements are aligned the feats. The Buu Arc Hierarchy is Identical to DBZ Movie 13. This falls in line with DBZ movie 14 battle of gods. The Z fighters have all regarded Goku as the strongest in the universe. This means that he has been the strongest since The Buu Arc. This is why there is never any mention of Goku surpassing Gohan in B.O.G. movie and Super Arc. Because Goku was always stronger, in reference to The Buu Arc. What undeniably reinforces this is Vegeta‘s rage boost power up. Substantiate it as well as narrated by master Roshi. “Vegeta’s Power Up has Made him even Stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Why is Vegeta surpassing Goku in Battle Of Gods so important? Bcuz SSJ2 Vegeta is still weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks & Base Form Gohan Inner Potential Unlocked. By surpassing Goku, The Strongest In The Universe, in reference to the Buu Arc, in connection to B.O.G. Vegeta became “The Strongest In The Universe” the moment he surpassed Goku. Why? Bcuz Goku was always the Strongest. Vegeta finally surpassed SSJ3 Gotenks & Gohan, by surpassing SSJ3 Goku. This is a monumental moment Goku secretly witnessed in the background.. The infamous “My Bulma” scene Goku perfectly imitates to Vegeta, Piccolo & Bulma at the end of movie/ arc.
The only thing I disagree with in the video is that vegito NEVER went full power against buuhan so It's impossible for baby to truly know vegito's maximum power. That's why I take the SS4's power being equal to Super Vegito as fact and if you want more information about SS4 goku vs Super vegito I'll link where I got my information from. ua-cam.com/video/rNKrmgS_1jg/v-deo.htmlsi=TjVCvZE6B6gNHVFP
@@supersaiyanprimalbroly31 i mean, the logic works the same way when goku says fusion wont be enough to deal with beerus Goku and vegeta at the end of the day would somehow know how strong the overall fusion is, especially as baby has been shown to access the memories of his host (hence y he found which city the sayains were living in/nearby) Even then, goten saying baby was the strongest he ever fought in the sub of GT breaks that logic where ssj4=super vegito Considering goten fought super buu as gotenks, implying baby and goten are bith stronger than super buu and baby from that point grew much more stronger till he reached vegeta Also, do be careful with GT scalers as most skip over official statements said in the anime when scaling, causing it to be heavily downplayed , especially the vegito and ssj4 statements from a guide that is both ambiguous and inconsistent when statements from the anime comes to mind
All of your arguments are invalid for one reason: none of GT is canon, if the canon manga retcons the timeline then GT feats are useless. Goku’s punch alone would destroy the entire universe and that’s before he trained the form and then adds Blue. GT meanwhile has Goku getting rocked by a Doubled Up android 17. SSG would obliterate SSJ4 and it’s not remotely close. And remember, the current timeline is clearly retconning GT’s timeline since Gohan Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo all have new forms that weren’t seen in GT. “dAs bEcAusE SuPeR wAsnT MaDe yEt!” Which is precisely why GT holds no merit. I love SSJ4 don’t get me wrong, but it doesn’t hold a fuckin candle to SSG Goku at his peak.
ssj4 goku may be weaker, but his hacks and speed are way better. base gt goku is WELL above instant transmission and kaikai, considering negative death ball(pretty much hakai, as it literally uses existence and fate erasure) not only CHASED kaikai, but INVADED AND DESTROYED IT as well, with kaikai being confirmed beyond time space dimensions. this would mean ssj4 goku outspeeds even ssjg gokus shockwave feat. also, i dont see people mention that shins/omegas feats are OUT OF PROPORTION. First, fundemetnally his aura works the same as universal zamasu. his energy alone is causing the macrocosm to merge, degrade, and eventually cease to exist. what people fail to mention is that this is when hes STANDINTG STILL and NOT DOING ANYTHING. Whats better, being low multiversal/macrocasm at your MAXIMUM while clashing with a better opponent, or doing something relative to that BY GOING OUT FOR ICECREAM.(the guides outright confirm that the shockwaves happened for two reasons, goku not knowing how to punch properly with god power and beerus simply not caring to. meaning this isnt a full ap feat. at most, it makes it similar to the superman v superman feat (ppl used to say superman was multiversal++++ because of his fight against himself, even though the collapse itself was caused by a villain. meaning it wasnt superman v superman destroying the multiverse, but rather the infinitely SHRINKING/IMPLODING multiverse. goku made shockwaves not because of the power itslef, but because of his usage of it and the person hes up against. this is why we rarely actually see universal/multiversal feats as toei doesnt make them with scaling in mind) so EVEN IF ssjg goku is stronger (even though they function on the same scaling, that beyind beyond fullpower vegito, the literal only feat that makes this talk worthy is the shockwave shit) ssj4 goku should be infinitely faster due to Super goku not having a remotely close feat until the granola arc where he PLAYS TAG with IT rather than outright being faster than it like GT goku is( yes GT goku is faster than IT. kaiaki has been stated many times to be a superior or godly varaint of IT just like potara and fusion dance. not only was ssj4 baby saga goku faster and stronger than revenge death ball, a kaikai outscaler, but EOGT goku unlocks what the GT story writer and gokus VA refer to as "change." the story writer leaves it open to interpretation, but gokus VA of over 50 years now makes it clear and cut. goku DIED and became enlightened. he gained an aura of Change that "allows to attacks to reach him," the ability to be anywhere whenever he wants instantly meaning its better than IT and KaiKai as not only does it function the same as kaikai overcoming ITs weakness of not being able to enter/exit places like hell without permission but also gives him access to the dragon realm making goku LITERALLY inaccessible/irrelevant speeds/power. pair that with his unquantifiable wishing potential(i hate ppl who dog on this reason by saying this is unscalable. no the fuck it isnt. we KNOW that wishes scale to the person, and EOGT/100yts goku are at the very very least low multiversal similar to god goku. that alone would make gokus wishing potential Super dragon ball RELATIVE bare minimum because we know he outscales all know dragons which are at most low-high macrocasm and we know FOR SURE that he outscales shadow dragon whomst was confirmed to be a universal tier/wiping wishing dragon unlike shenron making him the strongest aside from super dragon ball, xeno, and GT goku himself. pair that with Super's shitty writing and theres no way ANY super goku can win. if GRANOLA can become as strong as goku and vegeta post moro arc by trading life force with a PARUNGA RELATIVE wishing dragon, GT goku can easily say "make me infinitely stronger at the cost of me skipping dinner tonight." OR LESS and hed instantly outscale in any way possible. even ONLY taking baby saga ssj4, ssjg would have to deal with healing power on par with itself, blue level ki control, kaioken mastered attacks like x10 kamehameha, ssj4s ki adaptation meaning hed either copy god ki OR hit him with the good ol Broly Reversal, ssj4s damage adaptation adapting to the power signature of ssjg itself, ssj4s limit breaking(has no multiplier similarly to mystic, but unlike mystic and closer to mui/ego/beast/fpssj it makes you go PAST your full potential until depowered which also lets you grow rapidly afterwards. im pretty much saying ssj4 can do just as it does in the show many times and just as mui did in super, make goku go from weaker than someone at his maximum to relative if not stronger than them with lower forms if not base in a single fight,) draconic ki manipulation(( PEOPLE USUALLY IGNORE THIS but GT DOES HAVE GODLY KI. we see several times that draconic energy/ki is superior to basic, has special properties unique to the user, and cannot actively be sensed or comprehended by mortals.we see this with all shadows as only goku and vegeta have been shown EXPLICITLY sensing them/their energy while everyone else pressure/visually guages(like piccolo does a lot in Super) as well as when goku Changes and everyone can both feel and not feel goku at the same time (krillin specifically, it seems goku has Emperor of Mankind affect and makes people extremely uncomfortable when seen/noticed for lack of better words. his presenc literally makes people question their eyes/sensing abilities. apart of this draconic manipulation is positive/negative kis WHICH ARE SEPARATE from positive and negative genki. positive/negative enegy manip are SOLELY unique to ssj4s and shadow dragons. normal goku and baby use GENKI for their attacks, which are the positive/negative sides of LIFE energy specifically. we see positive energy manip in final shine attack and dragon fist/change aura/final spirit bomb. we see negative from the dragons. then ssjg has to deal with ssj4m having a soft ui and moving instinctually on top of all that?? i also wanna scale ssj4 itself. starting from ssj1/2 baby is where scaling STATEMENT wise gets EVEN with super, both baby and ssjg beyond stated/hinted(baby stated, ssjg hinted) to be beyond fp vegito. now we know that ssj1 baby already outmatched ssj3 goku, ssj2 and 3 were just meant to show off. it was when baby was in ssj1/2 that goku outright states he is the strongest saiyan power to ever exist. this same baby who outscaled a ssj3 GOKU in ssj1 later SHIT HIMSELF against a great ape goku while as a ssj3. this would make golden ape goku alone in the several thousands of amps beyond ssj3 just to even get on par with baby, but to make him cower in fear?? golden ape is easily sitting at the 10k-50k amp range CONTINUE READING IN REPLIES, ALSO HAS TLDR
ssj4, at its weakest, is ON PAR with a x1000 AMPED GOLDEN APE BABY. ive seen too many people say that the general range for g ape and ssj4 is 10k and 50k(which is false anyways according to toei, whether its games, Heroes, or Gt files theres always one universal fact. ssj4 has no set multiplier. its classified as limit breaker for a reason.) in order for ssj4 AT ITS WEAKEST(goku at the time was literally about to die prior to transforming meaning even as a ssj4 he was still wiped out) to compete almost ON PAR with a x1000 golden ape(doesnt matter if you think it only amped health/dura or ap fact is that baby took in more because he and bulma deemed it worthwile so he FOR SURE gained something from the extra blutz) from BABY whomst was already stronger than him by hundreds of times would make ssj4s TECHNICAL multiplier in the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. and as we saw, a full power fresh ssj4 absolutely manhandles a x1000+ golden ape, hundreds of multiples in difference between fighters having even less importance.ssj4 isnt 2x golden ape, or even 5x, its DOZENS of multiplier differences. ssj4 can also full tank, absorb, outspeed, and out power a negative deathg ball. so ssj4 has fate and erasure manip/neg and is irrelevant in speed. this all happened in ONE ARC less than 5 episodes apart, with other couple of arcs with even CRAZIER power jumps than this TLDR: while ssjg goku MAYBE has power advantage, GT goku definitively has better hacks and speed feats on paper and by toei official statements as well as experience and skill. ssjg with big power and decent speed cant do anything to a guy whose naturally faster than IT and KaiKai, can wish to be stronger, has pretty much every Super god saiyan hack considering ssj4 is where the inspiration originally came from(this cannot be argued, ssjg took colors and rituals, ssjb took ki control, mui took instincts, ego took adaptation. goku black stole the xicor saga from AF, TOP came from multiversal tournament of AF, brolys ikari taking after ssj4, the list literally goes on. Hell, the only reason toyo even writes super is because akira hired him after reading AF himself when toyo was still toyble. GT/AF was IMPERATIVE to Super, its powers, and story,) has STATED invulnerability being the Change state aura,and can freely increase his power through kaio/positive ki manip means. also forgot to say this before but dragon fist should easily overcome the difference in power, its special hack is preeeeeeeeetty much dura neg. as shin, eis and super 17 show, you can be over 20x stronger than goku(x10 kame is usually seen as 10x the og 2.2x so 10x kame = 20-20.4x) in a LITERAL sense(both of them not only full tanked a 10x kameha wave, but both either already completely outscaled it or absorbed it and more outright) just for them both (technically) to get ONE shot by dragon fist, once of which was in base. even if 17 was off guard, base goku still one tapped a dude who was over 20x stronger than his strongest form....in terms of eis, GT confirmed verbally that eis is superior to nouva. goku struggled with nouva, but then proceeded to one shot eis without even being able to see. case and point. theres seriously no way people should argue that ssjg is beating a dude physically relative to himself ap wise, is infinitely faster, has better hacks and experience, infinitely evolving form, and a technical dura neg ability that would make up for any power difference. i know many will decide not to read, but please try. GT is really undeserving of the hate it gets. toyo gets that, akira gets that. without GT and AF we wouldnt have Super or at least not in the way it is. respect gt. (also if u say Gt was written poorly because of the adventure style stfu fake ahh fan. true db enjoyers liked GT bcuz just like akira and toyo both said its nostalgic. its the best of DB with the best of Z. adventure and combat. was it rushed? yeah. was the animation subpar? yeah its DB that wasnt literally Z your point? just like super, GT has a lotta good art and a lotta bad. all in all Gt was fun ssj4 goku may be weaker, but his hacks and speed are way better. base gt goku is WELL above instant transmission and kaikai, considering negative death ball(pretty much hakai, as it literally uses existence and fate erasure) not only CHASED kaikai, but INVADED AND DESTROYED IT as well, with kaikai being confirmed beyond time space dimensions. this would mean ssj4 goku outspeeds even ssjg gokus shockwave feat.
All of this just to be told “no bro, ur wrong” with zero explanation y ur wrong Yes that comment is coming from someone eventually as ppl enjoy downplaying GT feats
@@sabichaokujo3307though I don't agree with universal or low multiversal cuz they are well above that And yes , gt gets hate for a reason but some outright slander the shit out of it which is stupid
@@BROKEN_1212 yeah i only gave low tiers to appease the supertards(it still works in my favor, as even a nerfed GT goku whose ap is less than ssjg should still stomp him) because most scale BoG goku to low-mid uni/multiversal. i do personally believe he actually doesnt scale that well in BoG, and people use his feat out of context by using superman v himself as reference. like i said, god goku IS NOT performing the feat. akira/toei said in guides/promos for both BoG anime and movie that goku simply FORGOT what hes been doing since Z, force cancelation. he was hitting beerus’ fist halfway and it was the force from BEERUS colliding with goku that caused everything, not goku to beerus. meaning its mostly a beerus feat, as goku simply changed how he was punching and not the force itself. of course goku scales to this, just not fully. making him low-mid multiversal instead of high multiversal with ssjb. also, im a firm believer that ssjg WAS stronger in BoG up until goku black/top. this is because beerus himself just by existing makes plotholes, and goku v beerus is the literal best showing from god. both manga and anime make god appear extremely weak compared to the one from BoG but yeah GT slander is truly wild. the only things i understand is complaints on pacing, animation, and overdoing the cool teenager pandering. aside from that, its LITERALLY prime dragon ball and everything akira wanted in dragon ball. thats literally the main reason why Super takes so damn much from GT. and i said prime db for a reason, as thats separate from prime Z
This is easy, GT is Goku 10 years after Z vs Super Goku 7 months after Z. Goku kept up his training in GT, Goku was working in Super. He went training to King Kai's planet. GT, even if you want to use Buuhan anime destroying the universe with his scream feat, is not comparable to Goku's Super feat of destroying a macrocosm with Red. You guys are tripping. Goku was working with 10 years of training and experience in GT vs 7 months in Super, he would be "weaker" than GT Goku before Red, yet stronger after even with 4. Red is FAR stronger than 4, as he even absorbed that red for his base.
You guys literally forgot that base gt goku shook heaven and hell just by powering up to show off and it’s already been stated both heaven and hell are two different realms/dimensions.
Super Saiyan god easily. Unlike Super Saiyan 4, Super Saiyan god offers more than just power. The form even has better feats while SSJ4 only has a better design 💯
We can easily discover house super Saiyan four Goku is stronger than super sand god. And no we don’t have to know the multipliers to understand this. It’s basic common sense. Let’s pretend well we don’t have to pretend it’s true. GT Goku takes place in an alternate timeline. The only difference between GT Goku and ended and super Goku is how they achieve their power is very different. In Dragon Ball super we have the super Saiyan god forms the red god form and the blue god form. But in GT‘s timeline which is just the time skip we don’t know what happened within that tenure time skip at the end of Z for the GT timeline. We just know Goku is the strongest by the end of Z. So at the end of Z this is where GT timeline and Super timeline meet. Now GT still doesn’t have any of the transformations that Super has. But one thing as common is that GT Goku at the end of Z is just as strong as Super Goku’s. In regards to the red guard form and the blue guard form it’s more or less on par. They achieve the same level of power we don’t know how he achieved a percent other than you know traditional training for the GT timeline. This is what takes precedence so I understand. Dragon ball super stops at the end of Z. GT timeline continues 10 years after end of Z. What this means is Goku gets 10 years worth of strength added on top of end of Z. This is all contributing to GT timeline Goku’s. So with that we know how strong Goku can get within one year, hell we know how strong Goku gets within one day. So Goku got 10 years to train it is without a doubt that he grew far more powerful than his end of the counterparts self. GT timeline, because he proceeded beyond that time limit for Super timeline Goku. And with that it’s no different than Star Wars the prequel‘s has better faster paced fights with newer technology to get the job done. But the original trilogy highlights levels of power that are on par with the prequel‘s and that exceed the prequel‘s power level. The fights don’t look as good there’s slower paced but we love the story we love the characters and we love the world building. That does not take away from the original trilogy episode 56 and I mean episode 45 and six the power levels displayed within their are equal to and surpass the power levels displayed in episode 12 and three. That’s the same difference. A Goku who has had 10 years worth of training that’s super Goku is limited from. Because super Goku has not superseded past the end of Z but GT timeline Goku has superseded past end of Z Goku. Super must stop at the end of ZGT has proceeded pass end of the 10 years to be approximate. In the freezer ark Goku went from Apollo at 3 million in his base form 150 million as a Super saying. In the cell arc Goku base form is 3 billion and his super Saiyan form is 150, billion. Look at the difference in power level and realms of power different from the Frieza ark Goku to the cell games Goku. It is monumentally massive to say the least. And that’s only three maybe four years worth of training in between and that’s how strong Goku got within three maybe four years tops so with in seven years worth of training Goku created super Saiyan three and became the strongest in the universe this is without a doubt. “It was the use of ki that allowed Goku to become the strongest in the universe” - Akira Toriyama. So just imagine for one moment how strong Goku could get with 10 years of training on interrupted? The difference between end of the Goku and the beginning of GT Goku is like the difference of SSJ4 Gogeta to SSJ Vegito Buu Arc. It is so massive it’s not incalculable, but the difference in power would be something like lord Beerus versus super Saiyan three Goku. That is the massive gap in difference between power levels that GT has created. Because this is a Goku’s who is allowed to train for 10 years straight uninterrupted. Goku has shown throughout the story of DBZ how strong he gets or house right he can get within one weeks time one months time one years time. And then he’s been able to compound and progressively transcend that level of training in a far shorter time period. I.e. the hyperbolic time chamber taking a whole years worth of training and permitting it to one day. The quantifiable game or elevation of Goku‘s power level would be so monumented, he could very well easily using a DragonBallZGuru Super reference he would be stronger than the angel of their universe and he would easily be on par with their father I forget his name but he’s the angel who is the father to all angels. That’s how massive Goku‘s power level would be in comparison for 10 years training straight. It’s just a natural progression in hierarchy yes you can have a super naturally strong 18 year old self versus a 28 year old self. But see that 28 year old self has 10 more years to supersede that the naturally the supernaturally fit eight-year-old. That’s 10 years of training that the 18-year-old does not get to progress in. That a stopping point now both parties are able if both timeline versions of yourself 18-year-old you and then 28 year old you are able to progress at the same point in time even if you got the same power. It can get a tiny bit confusing if you don’t focus on what’s being said and how it’s being said. But it makes a lot of sense. You can be a super naturally strong 10 year old child with the strength that she would have a 30. That would make you equal to yourself at 30. But then you do you have a stopping point for your supernatural 10 year old self but your 31 S. gets a change for the Nother 10 years so now I don’t you older but you are far more powerful that’s the that’s the huge gap the huge lead the huge advantage you have over someone who stopped progressing. The same in a potential is there but one stop progressing in the other got to progress 10 years in advance. The one who got to progress 10 years in advance with mudstomp the one who stopped progressing for whatever reason. GT super Saiyan four Goku wins. And we don’t even need to know what the multiplier is to know this.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... according to my calculations🤓 this is kind of wrong. because ssj4 is actually crazy strong, thus it may having a multiplier of 1.6 billion. before yo ass freak out, lemme tell why. We know that ssj3 has a 400x multiplier in base. and super baby 2 demolished goku and super baby 2 multiplier is 400x. so we could say that super baby 2 is 160 000 times stronger than BASE baby saga goku. Not ssj3, BASE. the reason why is if ssj3 has a 400x multiplier and super baby 2 demolished goku this kind of would mean that super baby 2 is 400x stronger than ssj3 goku (aint sure so dont write a bunch of crap excluding my multiplier so you can help and correct me since im not very great at scaling). And 400 times 400 is 160 000. so super baby 2 is 160 000 times stronger than BASE baby saga goku thus making it that power multiplier. After that when goku becomes a ssj4 baby needs to match his power because its so great, he becomes a golden oozaru. but something is wrong.... baby gained 1000x more bruits waves than he actually should and this multiplies the power a lot more. now if golden oozaru is a 500x multiplier we gon do 500 times 1000 because baby gained 1000x more bruits waves which multiplies his power by 1000, making it a 500 000x multiplier. this might sound weird which i completely agree because this is crazy af. then we are going to multiply this with super baby 2 because he was getting demolished in that form and according to me babys multiplier on that form is 160 000x. so this would mean we need to MULTIPLY 160 000 WITH 500 000x. and this becomes 80 BILLION TIMES MULTIPLIER WHICH MAKES SSJ4 80 BILLION TIMES BASE DUDE WTF. so my 1.6 billion multiplier was a LOW BALL. ok im not going into this again because its very hard to scale gt when you have dbs around. now both forms are cool, i just tried to make a multiplier which turned out to be CRAZY so yeah. as i said im new so this might be wrong pls tell me have a good day.
SSG has never made any sense as a transformation and is a poorly conceived concept. Why six pure hearted Saiyans? What about the same for humans or Namekians if that kind of Ki is supposedly universal and not the life force of the Kais who are instead capable of being sensed 🙄 Beerus and the other gods of destruction seems to run on the Hakai type so they’re clearly different.
base vegetto is mu ch stronger than ssg goku, ssg goku couldn't even beat base kefla, so this whole "not even ssj3 vegetto would be enough to beat beerus" is horseshite that has long since been debunked years ago, meanwhile, ssj4 goku has been stated by GT Perfect files to be more or less the same level of power as SSJ Vegetto ... meaning SSH4 Goku is actually at least as powerful as SSB Goku
my headcanon power levels: ssj - 50x ssj2 - 100x ssj3 - 400x ssj4 - 4000x ssj god - 50,000x ssjb - 500,000x ssjbkkx20 - 10,000,000 ui - 100,000,000x I can see why power levels were dropped along the way lmfao
Super Saiyan 4 is more like 20,000x as it's many times beyond the power of a SSJ3 going Ozaru which would be 4,000x itself and he also increases the multiplier when he uses FP SSJ4 so 20,000x seems reasonable. SSJG is more like an over 160,000x boost as it far exceeds the levels of a theoretical SSJ3 Vegito. SSJB was stated many times to be a SSJG with the power of or just straight up going SSJ so it's at least a 50x boost. If it works the same way as the Grade 4 SSJ then it's a 500x boost on top of SSJG. Ultra Instinct the technique doesn't have any multiplier, it's a boost in power and a technique that he can merge with his base or any other transformation. MUI or TUI do however have multipliers as they are transformations that go beyond even stacking SSJB with UI. I can't fathom the number as I have no basis to go off of but I will make a hypothetical educated guess. So if SSJG is around 160,000x and SSJB is a 500x highball on top of that, that would make SSJB an 80,000,000x boost. Then Kaio-Ken x 20 would be 1,600,000,000x and an Omen UI gave a much bigger boost in power although it wasn't a transformation at that point, just something that boosted the power of his base and gave him much greater technique. In the Granolah Saga, Goku is able to merge the technique of UI with SSJB and that gives him a bigger boost than Kaio-Ken x 20, and his MUI transformation is massively above that, most likely 80x aboce a SSJBKKX20 as he went from getting fodderised to doing the fodderising. So that would make MUI a multiplier of 128,000,000,000x and TUI is massively above that as he was able to beat down Gas after achieving it and he was previously barely able to touch Gas with MUI. So I'd give it a lowball of 10x making it 1,280,000,000,000. So the UI and SSJB boost are a lot bigger than you'd expect. Still smaller than the boost that Freeza got to get from Star level to Multi Universal+ in 3 Months. That'd be in the Untrigintillions at the very least. And that's not even factoring in the fact that DB Macrocosm are much bigger than just single Universes.
i think you are skipping many points for GT. here are some of the arguments for GT goku being way stronger than tbh current Blue goku. 1. the Arc you skipped. the black star saga is having multiple power ups for goku. Goku surpassed his super saiyan multiple times. already giving him a a far higher mulitplier than you gave him. 2. The universe destruction feat you talk about is not that good coz that feat was already done by buuhan in Anime and GT goku at the start already far eclipes it. simply because in GT continuity, Z Anime confirmed that kid buu was stronger (said in show like 7-8 times). and uub was literally stronger than kid buu confirmed at end of Z. so even at the start of GT goku would already be far stronger than anyone in Z including Vegito in base as it was already confirmed in Z end episode that Goku was the strongest fighter. 3. Gt Goku has feat of affecting the realm of instant tranmission. that was confirmed to have no space-time. he even destroyed sugoroku space that was having no concept of dimensionality. that already makes GT goku far above ssg feat of threatening the macrocosm. its a way better feat giving GT goku higher dimesionality and nothing ssg does is even close to base GT feat of sugoroku space or baby vegeta warping the whole infnite realm that has no space or time. 4. from early GT to GT end youre only taking basic multiplier of ssj4 which isnt good multiplier for GT. As GT goku himself is having huge jumps in mulitpliers. he literally went to surpass his own full power ssj4 in just base form. and it happened multiple times. GT base goku got so many multipliers that at the end of GT hes even surpassing his super saiyan 4 multiple times over in just base. 5. the multiplier of 1.6 billion for basic ssj4 is pretty good overall estimate. i can prove that number as baby was bathed in 10000 times blutz wave, and base ssj4 was already surpassed by full power ssj4 and ultra full power ssj4 in shadow dragon arc. and all of it is surpassed by GT goku multiple times. 6. baby vegeta was able to warp instant transmission realm that is one of the greatest feats in dragon ball. and in GT even kabito kai was able to react in that no time moment. already giving GT goku far superior speed even if we dont take meta cooler movie feat. which btw would make GT goku even faster. 7. the Omega line for "he was gonna do it slowly" isnt right either. as it was shown that kabito kai wanted to move instantly but in ssg fight they werent as worried as Omega. btw this feat is done by omega just standing. he was just standing there bro.. he wasnt even trying. 8. GT goku also gets feats from DBZ movies as the characters are shown in super 17 arc. so fusion reborn feat, broly feat, meta cooler feat and many others would be counted. it not necessary to scale GT goku but it really solidifies the gap in DBS and DBGT even before the sho starts. 9. DBS goku showed an outerversal feat at DBS broly movie and GT Goku did that feat in base form in early GT. i think youre downplaying GT goku here. He already has far more impressive feats than even UI shaking world of void and stuff. Overall GT goku far outclass DBS goku atleast for now coz we're forgetting that Z anime is far stronger than Z manga that DBS follows. GT goku gets all the filler feats and the Movies feats. a simple example is that Frieza in manga was barely Star level character in namek saga but in Z anime hes shown to be universal+ coz of spirit bomb scaling. by all logic atleast for now GT goku claps BOG SSG in base probably.
The BSS is a pointless arc, it does not provide anything and no strong feats to the table, Goku being stronger is just headcanon and the fact you think all his SSJ forms have a higher multiplier just because he **surpassed it** is not a good argument. It was an arc made to make fans nostalgic about og Dragon ball Adventure. 2 and 7: Buuhan was never going to destroy the universe🤦, you can say you don't understand the context but he was never going to destroy it directly. He was going to break the dimensional walls and they collapse and bleed into eachother, effectively destroying it. Buuhan was never doing it, he was just weakening the dimension barriers. Keep yapping on shit you don't understand. Kid Buu is not stronger than Buuhan, this argument is so stupid you might as well say SSJ3 destroys Ultimate Gohan which is false. When requested about fusing, both of them say no but when they saw Super Buu when they were absorbed. They were literally shitting bricks saying they'd need to fuse to stand a chance against Super Buu. Also Z never stated Uub was stronger than Kid Buu, they said Uub was as strong as Kid Buu, because Goku in EOZ was as strong as himself in SSJ3 during Buu Arc. SSJG multiplier is stronger than hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto that made Goku Go from Galaxy to Universal(low-ball). GT Goku still stays at the max of Multi-Galaxy and we still have more I need to debunk lol. Like the Omega Feat, 'he wasn't going to do it slowly' bro Omega literally says he will destroy the Galaxy overtime not the universe but even if he did destroy the universe it's still an overtime feat making it a galaxy level feat. Meaning Kibito Kai fearing is a valid reason, because if we take in-verse reasoning, he could've went somewhere outside the Galaxy and that wouldn't of affected him. In Super however, regardless of what Kibito Kai was going to do he was going to die alongside everyone else in the universe had Beerus and Goku clashed once more. He had nowhere to go is what I'm saying. 3:The Sugorkou Space is a dimension, it also has space and time within it, "To think that it would warp him into a different **dimension of space**" "Goku fell into Sugorkou Space, an area between **dimensions**" "That is an area between **time and space** where no one can help you" all these are verbatim as in the show. Goku breaking out of it isn't a feat because Super Buu and Gotenks did the exact same thing in Z. GT Goku is only doing feats that people have already done in the past. He has the same dimensionality like everyone else did in Z. Super Goku was going to destroy everything in the Universe 7 macrocosm, Heaven Hell,Earth, Demon Realm, Supreme Kai World. Literally everything, and it's stated that Universe 7 is an Infinite expanding universe. This puts GT Goku's feat to shame lol 4 and 5: SSJ4 has no multiplier, and everything the producer said and you said was pure headcanon with at least the author actually having some sort of proof. SSj4 multiplier in the perfect files was said to be as strong as SSJ Vegetto, the anime never changes the multiplier. This would mean at minimum it's a 20,000x multiplier(well I'm obviously wrong because I'm not Toriyama sorry, rip) rather than that absurd multiplier of 1.6 billion which has nothing backing it up except you going "hahaha Goku multiplier stronger because he get strong in show" with no backing even if it was an estimate which is just your bias. GT Goku never surpassed his SSJ4, again your pure headcanon,no one acknowledges this at all. Just because Baby had 10000 Blitz Waves does not literally mean the multiplier is 10000X, it's still a 10X and was still giving SSJ4 Goku before he went FP trouble. 6:The same thing happened when Buu destroyed earth and they had to escape, Goku couldn't IT because he had no concentration having to literally escape a planet being blown up as well as not being able to save Piccolo,Gohan and the kids. It was only once Kibito Kai shown up they were able to escape as Kai Kai doesn't need to be concentrated to teleport 8:The instant you include movies is the instant the argument you went for is naught, just because we see characters from the movie does not instantly make them canon to GT and the Metal Cooler feat isn't impressive because both were using IT meaning both were still materializing to where they were suppose to be. Even then Goku from Cell Saga easily deals with Metal Cooler Goku anyways. They have no interaction with the movie characters, they were just there for Easter eggs that's just it. 9: Delusional, GT can't even reach Universal and you still think otherwise, Super Animes literally follows DBZ/ Kai anime while Super Manga follows Z Manga, even then this is just pure bias and nostalgia about a show that is shit and the only thing going for it is a kid turning into a furry red monkey. God Goku already eclipses everything GT had already did while in his first arc 😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣🤣 You also forget there's a term called "unreliable narrator" who misleads readers, either deliberately or unwittingly. The narrator calling Frieza a universe buster was because Frieza was literally undefeatable, no one at that time during Z could defeat Frieza hence him being know ln as "Emperor of the Universe". If he was Universal, where is his feats showing he was Universal at that time. Same thing for Cell as he was considered "God of Destruction" why wasn't SSJ3 Goku able to destroy Beerus because he's stronger a GOD who was Cell. You forget that Super Goku (from the anime) follows Z anime, while Super Goku(from the manga) follows Z manga. GT Goku does not get the movie feats🤦🤦, just because you saw Bojack or Cooler does not instantly mean they experienced it. It's like in Sonic 06 when everything gets reset. Just because you see Silver in the next game does not mean Sonic remembers helping him with Shadow defeat Solaris or them fighting eachother
@@darkgenics Bruh.. you call that a debunk. You really are clueless lol. lemme debunk your dEbUnK. tbh it would need two parts essay just to mention your AHH arguments. First lemme show you the useless claims you made tbh. dude i am literally laughing at the mere idea that you think GT is Multi galaxy lol. what year are you living in? freaking 2010? lol. Frieza saga in DBZ already went to Universal+ scaling and i can easily prove that. let me know if you need proof fot that lol. GT goku being weaker (you said Multi galaxy) than Namek saga (universal+ in Anime) makes no freaking sense. now your points that need to be debunked bruh. > " Buuhan was never going to destroy the universe, you can say you don't understand the context but he was never going to destroy it directly" Youre directly Wrong here lol. so lets say that was never destroying it directly. but we know Buuhan was going to shatter the barrier between dimensions that same barriers that were holding the alternate dimensions that can crush the Macrocosm 7. Like bruh Buuhan would have needed similar AP to even make a dent in the Barrier. So yeah it would scale Buuhan AP. youre wrong here. > "Kid Buu is not stronger than Buuhan, this argument is so stupid you might as well say SSJ3 destroys Ultimate Gohan which is false" Brother? have you even watched the Anime. HAHA. Read these dialouges from Goku, Supreme kai and vegeta btw. "Yes. His Heart, which through absorption had allowed his power to even be reduced" (they literally talked about thi in Anime that super buu was weaker coz he wasnt pure unlike manga) "You're on a whole different level from all the boos upto now" "stronger than anyone i have fought before" (goku fought buuhan btw lol) "This is purely evil, absolutely most powerful, Ultimate Majin boo" WHAT NOW?? SHOW IS LYING TOO LOL. your points would be Valid if it was Manga bruh. In anime its a whole different story. and thats exactly Why GT got broken in first place. >"Also Z never stated Uub was stronger than Kid Buu, they said Uub was as strong as Kid Buu, because Goku in EOZ was as strong as himself in SSJ3 during Buu Arc" i mean it doesnt even matter tbh. we already know that End of Z goku was as strong as Uub which was as strong as Kid buu. and that was Kid Uub. youre telling me that after years of training Uub would be weaker than his own previous strength? wtf are you on about? >"SSJG multiplier is stronger than hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto that made Goku Go from Galaxy to Universal(low-ball)" Bro wtf? Vegito was already Multiversal in Buu saga. Do you even know that a macrocosm in Dragon ball is different than real life universe right. Like bruh a solar system in Dragon ball is already. our universe is having approx 1 septillion stars but in dragon ball a galaxy have more stars than that and before you talk non sense uneducated shet. lemme show you proof. Read the scans from Daizenshu. 宇宙 The Universe The endless, expansive space wrapped around every celestial body that exists in the Living World. Along with the "Demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the Living World. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design. Within the universe, there are "nebulae" composed of innumerable stars, and there are "galaxies" composed of innumerable nebulae. There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy. Earth resides in the Solar System, a galactic nebula on the outskirts of the North Galaxy. so stfu about Vegito being multi galaxy lol. thats in manga not Anime. bruh thats exactly what i mean. Anime has far higher scaling than Manga. DBZ from namek saga was already far above universal. >"Like the Omega Feat, 'he wasn't going to do it slowly' bro Omega literally says he will destroy the Galaxy overtime not the universe but even if he did destroy the universe it's still an overtime feat making it a galaxy level feat" are you really that dumb? this feat isnt even needed bihh. Baby vegeta was warping an infinite realm that was meta physical. bruh that is like one of the god tier feats in GT. Omega was far above Baby vegeta so he scales from that. And that BS you said "oh its a slow feat" lol no bruh. by that logic SSG never even destroyed anything in punches lol. You do realise that Omega is far stronger than baby vegeta and base GT goku right. so its an irrelvant argument to say that somehow omega would be weaker than baby vegeta. > "In Super however, regardless of what Kibito Kai was going to do he was going to die alongside everyone else in the universe had Beerus and Goku clashed once more" thats not a even a good scaling lol. you the funny part is that this feat is easily surpassed by Base GT goku in baby vegeta Saga lol when. yet no talks about it lol. >"The Sugorkou Space is a dimension, it also has space and time within it, "To think that it would warp him into a different *dimension of space**" "Goku fell into Sugorkou Space, an area between **dimensions**" "That is an area between **time and space* where no one can help you" all these are verbatim as in the show." what a sh*ty ahh debunk lol. **dimension of space** ok.. it was a statement. that literally was debunked next second lol. **area between dimensions** doesnt mean anything tbh. that doesnt prove anything lol. area? how do you scale that area? we know it didnt have any time or space. all it said was that it was between dimensions lol. doesnt prove anything. Also youre already debunked by guides already bruh. Read this btw **There is no concept of "time" or "space" in this world, and it exists between dimensions, separate from any other area.** **"Rooms" and "Sugoro spaces" have been confirmed.** Now what? the official guide by the company itself is wrong? yeah sure lol HAHA .loved how you cherry picked the statements lol but didnt take the statement where its mentioned **
@@darkgenics Bruh.. you call that a debunk. You really are clueless lol. lemme debunk your dEbUnK. tbh it would need two parts essay just to mention your AHH arguments. First lemme show you the useless claims you made tbh. dude i am literally laughing at the mere idea that you think GT is Multi galaxy lol. what year are you living in? freaking 2010? lol. Frieza saga in DBZ already went to Universal+ scaling and i can easily prove that. let me know if you need proof fot that lol. GT goku being weaker (you said Multi galaxy) than Namek saga (universal+ in Anime) makes no freaking sense. now your points that need to be debunked bruh. > " Buuhan was never going to destroy the universe, you can say you don't understand the context but he was never going to destroy it directly" Youre directly Wrong here lol. so lets say that was never destroying it directly. but we know Buuhan was going to shatter the barrier between dimensions that same barriers that were holding the alternate dimensions that can crush the Macrocosm 7. Like bruh Buuhan would have needed similar AP to even make a dent in the Barrier. So yeah it would scale Buuhan AP. youre wrong here. > "Kid Buu is not stronger than Buuhan, this argument is so stupid you might as well say SSJ3 destroys Ultimate Gohan which is false" Brother? have you even watched the Anime. HAHA. Read these dialouges from Goku, Supreme kai and vegeta btw. "Yes. His Heart, which through absorption had allowed his power to even be reduced" (they literally talked about thi in Anime that super buu was weaker coz he wasnt pure unlike manga) "You're on a whole different level from all the boos upto now" "stronger than anyone i have fought before" (goku fought buuhan btw lol) "This is purely evil, absolutely most powerful, Ultimate Majin boo" WHAT NOW?? SHOW IS LYING TOO LOL. your points would be Valid if it was Manga bruh. In anime its a whole different story. and thats exactly Why GT got broken in first place. >"Also Z never stated Uub was stronger than Kid Buu, they said Uub was as strong as Kid Buu, because Goku in EOZ was as strong as himself in SSJ3 during Buu Arc" i mean it doesnt even matter tbh. we already know that End of Z goku was as strong as Uub which was as strong as Kid buu. and that was Kid Uub. youre telling me that after years of training Uub would be weaker than his own previous strength? wtf are you on about? >"SSJG multiplier is stronger than hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto that made Goku Go from Galaxy to Universal(low-ball)" Bro wtf? Vegito was already Multiversal in Buu saga. Do you even know that a macrocosm in Dragon ball is different than real life universe right. Like bruh a solar system in Dragon ball is already. our universe is having approx 1 septillion stars but in dragon ball a galaxy have more stars than that and before you talk non sense uneducated shet. lemme show you proof. Read the scans from Daizenshu. 宇宙 The Universe The endless, expansive space wrapped around every celestial body that exists in the Living World. Along with the "Demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the Living World. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design. Within the universe, there are "nebulae" composed of innumerable stars, and there are "galaxies" composed of innumerable nebulae. There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy. Earth resides in the Solar System, a galactic nebula on the outskirts of the North Galaxy. so stfu about Vegito being multi galaxy lol. thats in manga not Anime. bruh thats exactly what i mean. Anime has far higher scaling than Manga. DBZ from namek saga was already far above universal. >"Like the Omega Feat, 'he wasn't going to do it slowly' bro Omega literally says he will destroy the Galaxy overtime not the universe but even if he did destroy the universe it's still an overtime feat making it a galaxy level feat" are you really that dumb? this feat isnt even needed bihh. Baby vegeta was warping an infinite realm that was meta physical. bruh that is like one of the god tier feats in GT. Omega was far above Baby vegeta so he scales from that. And that BS you said "oh its a slow feat" lol no bruh. by that logic SSG never even destroyed anything in punches lol. You do realise that Omega is far stronger than baby vegeta and base GT goku right. so its an irrelvant argument to say that somehow omega would be weaker than baby vegeta. > "In Super however, regardless of what Kibito Kai was going to do he was going to die alongside everyone else in the universe had Beerus and Goku clashed once more" thats not a even a good scaling lol. you the funny part is that this feat is easily surpassed by Base GT goku in baby vegeta Saga lol when. yet no talks about it lol.
@@ekoyal_gemu4446ssjg still slams even at weakest in the BoG saga it was universal+ omega shenron was also universal at his best making ssj4 weaker than universal making ssjg much stronger
People forget that Goku had lost most of His power when He was turned into a kid to the point, He couldn't go Super Saiyan 3 until He regrew His tail, while I know that Super Saiyan God has shown more feats I argue that Super Saiyan 4 is closer in power then people think, it's not equal, but the power gap isn't a one shot as it all depends on the base power of the form user, in the Manga Goku Black in just SSJ2 was benching SSJB Edit: Don't start a fucking war in this chat, I'm not in the mood for that, also SSJB is just a 50x Multiplier but also combines it with the Bullshit that is God Ki.
Both are cool and if Super Sayian 4 is ever introduced in Dragon Ball Super it could be all the way from slightly weaker than SSG to stronger than Beast Gohan
You are wrong I don't care Super Saiyan 4 is better than any transformation in super and I have seen calculations that put the multiplier at 7 septillion.
you are wrong I don't care Super Saiyan God is better than any transformation in GT and I have seen calculations that put the multiplier at (insert multiplier over 7 septillion with 0 proof as to where I got that multiplier)
SUBSCRIBE! Which form do you think is stronger and overall effective?
Discord - discord.gg/4FfHxHxqPz
Twitter - twitter.com/AventSan
if you want your video done - cash.app/$JORDANALLOWSIT
You weren't very specific, if you mean as a form then I don't really know. But in terms of end of gt goku vs BATTLE OF GODS GOKU then I don't even think that question needs to be answered
If Vegito's Base Power is 400x and Him at SSJ is 2000x How Strong would theoretical SSJ3 Vegito?
@@michaelbarbour3864 20 million times. If you want the math, it's Goku and Vegeta at max power combined then times 100. That multiplier times 400 is 20 million
Ssj4 feels more primal and connected to saiyans..
So is ssj1,2 and 3 nothing new ssjg is not supposed to do that it’s a form that don’t focus on raw power but it’s abilities, ssj4 is regressing them the more they think and have a mindset of a average Saiyan they regress and don’t grow or develop which is why goku is leagues above any other saiyan because of his mindset and personality, why do you think sayians like radtiz, Nappa even vegeta at the time didn’t grow or develop as much they should have because they had that average sayian mindset.
SSJ 4 is an Awesome call back to OG DB combing the OG Great Ape concept with newer SSJ.
SSG is just Red/Blue Hair Goku....
That's a gross understatement. Thematically the god forms were on point. No they didn't dig too deep into the oozaru, but they landed heavily on the themes present throughout the end of z. More of gokus training and work with the gods amping him, rather than dormant instincts. The idea that goku absorbed the god power and just stacks all of his other transformations is insane.
I am always on Akira Toriyama's side. His style has always been simplistic, and I like that. Forms like SSG and SSB will always represent true power beyond regular SS forms to me, unlike SS4. RIP Akira Toriyama the legend 😢
I like Super Saiyan 4 better but SSJG is awesome too. It served as the introduction into the new era of dragon ball.
Say what you want to say but no ssj god isn’t just red hair Goku by that logic ssj is just spiky golden hair Goku and ssj 4 is just furry Goku
Furry vs Red-head.
Tho ssg definitely has better feats than ssj4, ssg weirdly has a healing factor built into it so you have a high multiplier and healing which makes the form like really good
Nope . Baby's Revenge death ball catching Goku from subspace which is outside time and space after Kibito kai already got there after vanishing with Goku in instant teleportation and warping him to sugoroku space which is established further in reach and on a higher scale as kais are stated to have no power over it abd can't reach it , while also being " between time and space " and capable of making anyone " wander forever " in it makes it the infinite not bound by time and space which is greater than all previous realms , not only is that already greater but other than threatening existence erasure in statement , even with the direct hit it put Goku in a state of neither alive nor dead , which are binary oppositions being above which at the same time makes something outerversal , Ssj4 Goku tanked that attack in first appearance no effort .
lol ssj4 goku slams dbs 0 difficulty. Baby bout to destroy time itself 💀
@@humanman9920 You just wrote a whole lot of meaningless psuedoscientific mumbo jumbo. SSG slams
@@persisted "Destroying time" is vague and meaningless. Nobody in GT can even destroy a galaxy
@@Vindication1134 " pSeUdosCieNtiFic mUmbO jUmbO " while cries about a comparison of fictional characters powerlevels according to their fictional world and rules .
Let’s not forget that GT has some wacky ass plot convenient power jumps. There are times where base form Kid Goku will be just as strong - if not stronger - than SSJ4 Goku after beating Baby. It takes a bit of paying attention and cross referencing how power scaling works in the Saiyan/Frieza saga to really gauge how strong Goku gets in GT, but it’s kinda freakin’ wild how strong he gets by implication.
Also, SSJ4 seems to have an adaptive power level based on enhanced Zenkai boosts from energy restoration and adapting to unique abilities. When Eis Shenron used the flash freeze ability twice on SSJ4 Goku, he was able to break free easily from the second attack because- in his words - once a technique is used on a SSJ4, it won’t work twice. This means that something like Guldo’s time freeze and Babidi’s brainwashing wouldn’t be effective on second use.
Why don't I see anyone talking about baby vegeta destroying the Kai Kai realm
he never did
Because it didnt happen
@@Toddles he did when he threw the revenge deathball and the kibito and shin's fusion saved Goku they wanted to teleport back but the realm was gone the attack literally removed it from existence and they couldn't teleport back
@@Atriedits4040 he didnt destroy it, but rather manipulated the entire space due to the shockwave of the deathball which interfered with the entire process
Logically thats actually an impressive speed feat, considering how much better kai kai is than IT, as the shovkwaves moved faster before kibitoshin could go from point A to B
0:37 GT takes place 5 years after the end of Z
10yrs pan was 4 at the end of Z and 14 in GT
Which technically means that gt goku is always stronger because super goku is before the end of z if we go time line wise but also super wasn't a thing
@@zrampagegaming2674 They're two different continuities, so Super's scaling does not affect GT's power levels whatsoever. Such a cope from GT supremacists.
GT Goku's timeline does not have god, it only follows off of Z.
@@kujoova tbf they did say "but also super wasn't a thing," they just mean GT Goku has a MASSIVE head start on power of Super purely because of the comparatively massive timeskip of like 10 years or so
@@brendansoucy2220 that head star is lost once super goku absorbs gods power in his base lmao
The boost in power from SSG is mainly the God ki, it would be ludicrous to state otherwise since that would be implying the form itself is at the lowest x320K and from what we really see in all of DBS, that's simply impossible especially when involving characters like Krillin who was able to hurt Goku in SSB. This is the definitive reason why it's so hard to find the true multiplier of SSG. That being said, SSG wins through feats since the full scale of SS4 outside of DBH and DBSH were never fully explored to its highest potential and there's no other defining comparison we can use other than this
When did krillin hurt goku in ssg blue? You can't be talking about the recruitment arc when goku was testing krillin to see if he would run away from someone as strong as a ssj blue.
I remember the Kamehameha Clash and Android 18 helping Krillin, but that is it. I remember him doing good against regular ssj
Wait but isn't Base Goku Gt as strong as he was in SS3 during the Buu Saga then says Rildo was stronger than Buu being Kid Buu (since it was the last time they fought) He would be at x160k without the use of SS4 because 400x400. Baby was Stronger in his Baby Vegeta 1 form than that Goku and Goku SS4 ate punches from a Baby Vegeta 2 without any type of Effort later down then line Goku in Gt keeps getting Stronger as he fights more enemies as GT goes on. Omega Shenron who is the Strongest enemy of GT needed a Universal Scale Spirit Bomb in order to Kill him. If not for his regeneration Goku would of killed him with the Dragon Fist that he used against him.
Terrible gt scaling along with merging the z anime with the super continuity
while i do agree he shouldnt have merged continuities, Super still is over GT in terms of power, and SSG offers more than SSj4 ability wise and power wise, since we do not know the multipliers for ssj4
@@brendobrando3277we dont know the multipliers for the god forms either, other than SSB is 50x stronger than SSG, and SSB Kaiokenx20 is 1000x stronger than SSG, and UI is stronger than that by an unknown variable.
As for abilities, SS4 has hax that allows a technique to not work the 2nd time it is used on him, and this is consistent throughout the series. The SSG healing technique was only shown once and isn't consistent throughout DBS.
@@righteousone5119 ssb goku literally does that same thing where he says that when hits time skip worked on him once, it wouldnt work on him anymore in their second meeting mind you he wasnt even in ssbkk when he said that, just base ssb. Hit can also improve his timeskip on the fly to bypass goku's resistances but STILL says that the technique wouldnt work on a casual ssb goku, hit even says that using timeskip on goku would be too charitable, the reason i used this is to show that, THAT trait is not a ssj4 exclusive trait, it is a saiyan trait. also ssg is built on the multipliers of a hypothetical ssj3 vegito, but thats more of a powerscaling standpoint
back to ssg it showing this healing trait once is a very flawed argument to use when ssj4 only showed the "adapting" thing once and never shows it in the series again. so saying ssg showed healing only once and then saying it is invalid in some sense is very very flawed
Awesome vid as always. Seriously wish I had the name of your editor. Whoever it is, they do stellar work.
Obviously the only drawback to GT Goku isn't less stamina. Shorter limbs, as one example, puts him at a disadvantage. That's not all, but I also refuse to believe Goku didn't undergo a power nerf as well. And then coming back to stamina, it conceptually doesn't make too much sense that he has less stamina as a kid. What I think would make more sense is if Goku's body was too small and/or immature to handle the stress/transformation of SS3/SS4. Putting the reasoning on stamina seems like a critical oversight to me. Lastly, I mean it is worth noting the Perfect Files is decently known to have errors and nonsensical information, so...
If Goku surpassed Gohan in BoG, then it's only because Gohan slacked on training. Otherwise Goku doesn't otherwise have the potential to surpass his son pre-God Ki (and even with god ki tbh).
Um, where was it confirmed that Goku is massively stronger than Kid Buu by BoG? There's a consistent lore in the series of solo training (for the Saiyans at least) not yielding any significant growth in strength, so time gaps and continuing to train doesn't mean much of anything.
As for the real discussion. It's pretty obvious the SSG forms are incoherently written/handled. When you look at THE REST of DBS, it's pretty apparent in retrospect that SS4 is the stronger form. SSG forms lost ratio is not just laughable but embarrassing, and ontop of that, side characters (including Gohan) and regular enemies are able to keep up with or surpass both SSG forms. Dude goes super saiyan in "god" form and still needs to rely on the Kioken stack to overwhelm numerous characters of all kinds in the series. It's not really that complicated as people make it out to be, SS4 is stronger.
shorter limbs is understandable, you could say that put him at a disadvantage(even though we know the size of the character doesn’t matter if they’re at a high level of skill and strength, an example being ssj2 gohan and grade 4 ssj goku.) but saying you refuse to believe he didn’t get a power nerf is purely subjective. you wanting him to get weaker doesn’t mean he did, he only lost stamina. it also would make sense for him to have less stamina as a kid because it’s quite literally a part of life that you gain stamina as you become older, till you start to leave your prime. and the whole thing with saiyans is that they stay in their primes longer. but everything else made lots of sense. just doesn’t really seem good to go against what the show says and make up your own things to me, but that’s all i had to say about it
Thanks For this! Love your content! SSG is awesome although SSJ4 Is nostalgic
I really dislike Super, this notion that Goku surpassed Ult Gohan in what a year or 2 is crazy. Especially considering he trained for 7 yes pretty much nonstop
It does make sense though? Goku at the end of the Buu saga was arguably on the same playing field as Ult Gohan, I personlly think he wasn’t as strong but you can definitely argue that Goku was stronger than Gohan when he fought Kid Buu. After that Goku continuously kept training for like you said a year or 2. This story had Goku jump from a power level of 90 000 to 3 million in less than one day. There’s no reason to think that Goku was not able to catch up and become stronger than ultimate Gohan in the few years he trained before BoG
@@zartiganaYeah Gohan was obvious in his own tier as the strongest non-Fusion ever, but Goku definitely would have caught up soon.
It’s not an ocean because it’s not true. The reason why it’s not true because Goku was already stronger than go hon. This is why I went Vegeta surpassed Goku the emphasis was oh Vegeta surpass super Saiyan three Goku reiterated by Master Roshi. There was no mention of Gohan because go home was never the strongest. You see in each arc of DBZ, in dragon ball super ties in specifically detailed events of what matters most. Against which villain is the strongest against in comparison to which Z fighter was the strongest able to match up against Sevilla. What does that villain with stronger or whether the hero was stronger. How they beat that feeling. Everything matters.
In The Buu Arc, none of the Saiyan warriors got a Zen Chi boost. They got stronger by training traditionally or they got stronger by means of magic/mystical elements. But none of them I repeat none of them got a Zenkai Boost.
This highlights that Goku was the strongest the entire time. Because Goku never grew in power. All the power he gained was from the seven years of training in other world. Goku never revealed his maximum power level until he fought against Kid Buu. Goku was heavily suppressed until that time period.
This is the number one reason why Dragon Ball super ties in Goku as the strongest Z fighter in The Buu Arc.
The manga DBZ and the anime DBZ Kai are not separate continuities. They don’t go into different directions. Akira Toriyama before his untimely demise, said the manga DBZ and the anime DBZ Kai are synonymous to each other. That means they are one in the same canon. One replaces the other and the other backs to one. They are to be treated as the same. He told a story in both the manga and the anime that are the same. The only difference is maybe the verbal vernacular and how something is described might say something differently but the end result is the same. When it’s saying something differently it’s using different words that’s what I mean to say but it means the same exact thing. That’s what so many of you guys don’t forget you guys have created a problem where there was none.
We all agree we all know we understand in the freezer arc Goku became the strongest in the universe. In the cell arc Gohan became the strongest in the universe. In The Buu Arc, Goku was the strongest in the universe. Know what I said he didn’t become he already was. He was a Strongest Z fighter force for good in the universe. But he wasn’t stronger than Kid Buu. Nobody was Goku collecting energy from every Z fighter and everybody in the planet. But when he just had energy from the Z fighters including his own son, google said this is not enough to beat Kid Buu. And there’s a mountain of evidence both in the manga and anime that states why and that alludes to and I guess detailed hints on Goku’s being the strongest. You even have DBZ movie 13 wrath of the dragon that is technically canon, because it fits within the timeline of the main timeline. Akira Toriyama stated any DBZ movie that does not or cannot fit within the meantime I takes place in an alternate timeline. Movie 13 Takes Pl. literally over one month after defeat of Kid Buu.
So why is this contention why is there this disorder why is there not an understanding when it comes to the third arc a.k.a. the Buu arc? That is because many of the fans are creating a false narrative a head cannon a.k.a. wishful thinking on who they want to be the strongest instead of listening to excepting and digging deeper into the details that dissect who the genuinely strongest Z fighter in the universe is. Which is Goku so much so that the sequel of sorts which is a DragonBallZGuru Super even K’NEX this that Goku was the strongest the whole time. And it goes against your sentiment in many other fans intimate who says Gohan actually goes against the manga of DBZ it goes against the anime of DBZ Kai and it completely contradicts everything Super has said.
Goku wasn't on Ultimate Gohan's level, at least nothing that showed that he was. Unless I missed something. But he was stronger than in thr Buu Sag most definitely and his God form would far surpass a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito.
At no point did it seem like Goku closed the enormous gap between him and Ult Gohan during the Kid Buu fight. Especially the fact kid buu is weaker then Base Super Buu
Great video!
One thing I’ll ever understand is why people think ssj4 is so much stronger than ssjgod or the top GT characters are so easily above the top super characters when GTs cosmology is far smaller than supers
Can you do hypothetical scenarios of the amazing characters please!!!
For example: Ayanokoji vs Alice and borderland games
Akiyama vs COTE exams
And even More!
Do not stop unloading!!!
It should be worth noting that Pan sensed Golden Great Ape Goku’s KI and noted that he was getting stronger and stronger, and then im middle of Goku transitioning from Golden Great Ape to SSJ4, Baby noticed a change in his KI, debunking the idea that some people thought that SSJ4 is equal to the Golden Great Ape. It terms of Super Saiyan 4 itself, while it can be argued that it wouldn’t start out as powerful as Super Saiyan God(it depends on the user since SSJ4 is implied to be similar be a type of Potential Unleashed state), it has the ability to reach since when Base Goku received Saiya Power from Gohan, Goten and Trunks in their Super Saiyan states and then turns Super Full Power Saiyan 4 afterwards, Trunks noted that “He’s taken his max power as Super Saiyan 4 and extended even further!”
Example of Super Saiyan 4’s power is in SDBH: Ultra God Mission(and official Dragon Ball story mind you), is CC Goku and Xeno Goku were equal from Base to Super Saiyan 3. Then when entering their unique forms, Super Saiyan 4 Goku is shown to being able to fight equally Super Saiyan Blue and even UI(-Sign-) when entering the Limit Breaker version. This shows that while Super Saiyan 4 debatably may not start out as being strong as Super Saiyan God, it OFFICIALLY has the potential(pun intended) to reach the realm of gods.
I know that people may not view Super Dragon Ball Heroes, however the Dragon Ball franchise as a whole, including its main stories has always had head-scratching moments when it comes to power scaling and the fight between the two Goku’s had shown a clear scale as to how strong they and their transformations were compared to each other.
I generally disagree with the ssjg multiplier scaling since once the ritual was used he was stated to be the strongest, and that's a failed ritual.
I forget which specific material it was that said this but fusion with the potara earings is apparently supposed to be both of the user's max power, combined, then times 100. So if you did a potential ss3 vegito, it would be SSj3 Goku + SS2 Vegeta which is a 500x multiplier. Then times 100 is 50,000, then times a potential super saiyan 3 vegitio which is an extra 400 is on paper is a 20,000,000x multiplier and I just did all of this for nothing because this is the exact number in the video alrighttttttttttt
Honestly disagree with the conclusion, I'd put SSJ4 over SSG
1: In a guide that includes both Ssj4 and God, Ssj4 is called the ultimate form
2: GT takes place after the anime and movies, while Super takes place after the Manga, the anime has universal feats far earlier on
3: Using the omega shenron's statement here is like using the "I can destroy the galaxy" statements in super to try and low ball it
the second argument is just useless, we are talking about the power of the form itself not who is stronger goku ssg or goku ssj4, but anyway goku ssg has an low outerversal feat in first fight with beerus so
but even then it's easy to scale majin buu saga goku at outerversal with infinite ap and irrelevant speed
first GT fan to make an decent argument instead of saying "no you're wrong"
What are you waffling about man. GT being after the movies is pure speculation. All you can say is that cooler is canon. Where was Broly out of all ppl when everyone got released from hell? It’s clearly just a Easter egg. Also gt scales nowhere close to super.
I disagree with you with the vague statement of ssj4 being the “ultimate form” broly has been stated to be the strongest man its just to make it seem cooler, also ssg has god in its title while ssj4 is just a continuation, ssg has it beat in narrative and multiplier
Very incorrect scaling video. 500x multiplier for golden Oozaru is just flat-out incorrect because Goku and Baby Vegeta achieve it and it's the basis of Ss4's power stated by the perfect files "Golden Oozaru is the basis of its super power!!" so if it had a set multiplier Goku should had lost. GT also has good feats for example, Baby Vegeta's first death ball warped the fabric of space time, shook the infinite area between dimensions and caught Kibito Kai using his Kai kai technique which is implied to be instant, this feat is even better than ultra instinct sign Goku shaking the null realm. SS4 has no multiplier as stated by the perfect files. "The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!!". SS4 is one of the strongest transformations and isn't just a power up shown by its adaptability, it's stability and it's link to saiyan biology. DBS has very strong characters but turns out GT does to.
God goku easily wins😎😎😎😎
Super saiyen god is strong but I do love ssj4 but I have to say it's out classes by ssjg
Vegito's base is ((A x B) x ?) dependent on the relationship of the fusees'. His base is drastically higher than anyone elses in Z, so that should also be considered when referring to Super Saiyan God's multiplier.
A hypothetical Vegito, with ((Vegeta * Goku post buu) x 10)) then x400 for a SSJ3 = the baseline for God Goku.
it would not be that weak, if you lowballed it ssjg goku in BoG solos all of dbz including ssj3 vegito
@@kotsiru I know that, if you could read and understand me, I outlined the fact that he put Goku's god base multiplier too low.
Super saiyan god is stronger but super saiyan 4 is a much better designed form.
I disagree, for a few reasons:
1-goku didnt fully absorb ssj god power (if he did was a temporary thing) because otherwise that means that several characters have achieved a power equal or even greater than ssj god easily, cabba was almost on vegeta base level (that would mean he would be almost on ssj god level which is more than ridicoulous)
gohan, if goku base was ssj god level that means his blue form is leagues above it so gohan somehow suprassed not only base goku (which should be stronger than ssj god) but was able to face ssj blue?
Frost is above ssj god level? Zamasu (im not against him being strong but goku using ssj2 means zamasu was 200x stronger than ssj god?)
It creates ton of plot holes and for me that makes no sense
2- Gt goku is AT LEAST 10 years (possibly more because of the time chamber) older than super Goku which means his base power was far greater.
3- gt goku in base was probably stronger than ssj3 goku at beggining of super so even if the multiplier for ss4 is lower his diference in base power should at least put them on the same level
1. Thats not a valid reasson, cabba shouldnt even be able Stronger then buu saga Goku in base but yet he destroy him in ssj3 in base, super powerscaling sucks
@@Stopscrolling.P its a valid reason, super power scaling makes no sense which is one more reason to believe ssj 4 is at least capable of facing ssj god (at least if things made a bit of sense)
Goku and beeruranus were about to wrek universe by punching each other
AT THE MINIMUM The math equals out to ssj4 being at Least 10x ssjgs minimum 20,000x and Both forms have the Possibility of being Much stronger.
Ssj4 is 🔥
7:15 goku originally said even ssj3 vegito would not be enough to defeat beerus so multipliers must be higher than that
We all love ssj4 better but God wins 😢 they need to make it canon somehow
Ssj4 Beats ssgssj too
Here's the problem with this debate. Even if SSB(Yeah Super Saiyan Blue, I know what I said) and SSJ4 were equal in their first appearance, the God forms would still be stronger. If SSG Goku and Strongest form 2 baby is around SSJ3 Vegito level, Super Saiyan 4 would still be weaker than SSG even if we say SSJ4 is 100 times stronger than the initial multiplier of golden great ape(500x Boost). Gt Goku has a stronger base and the stronger you think that base is, the weaker SSJ4 is than SSG. Lets say SSB and SS4 are equal to SSJ3 Vegito. I'll use Vados's scaling since that's the most recent multiplier for potara.
Base Buu Saga/Pre-Bog Goku: 1
SSG Goku: 400,000
SSB Goku: 20,000,000
Base Gt Goku: 400
SSJ4 Goku: 20,000,000
SSJ3 Vegito: 20,000,000
Super Saiyan God would be a 400,000 times multiplier while SSJ4 would be a 50,000 times multiplier. Blue would be overkill. I will note that both should be stronger than SSJ3 Vegito, I only used it as an example. I also know base GT goku is stronger than SS3 Goku but the weaker base Gt Goku is, the stronger SS4 is. I'm also blatantly ignoring that SSG is stronger than Vegito so I think I was fair to Gt Goku.
heres the thing tho... gt goku seems to be the goku from fusion reborn who shook the universe sized realm just by transforming
Personally disagree on how you scale GT, Goku can get to uni by upscaling Buuhan from Rildo, Golden Great Ape wouldn’t be a 500x multiplier, since that would never be able to catch up with Baby, and SSJ4 is far greater than Golden Great Ape since Goku was able to keep up with Baby, who had 1000x the Golden Great Ape multiplier
I never liked SSG. I like SSGB. SS4 I have issues with but it’s still better than SSG. SSG always seemed lazy and terrible looking. Vegeta made it cool later though in the Broly movie.
Ssg is lazy but u like ssgb?
I'm loving these uploads. SSJ4 ftw!
He said Buus and not just buu
I know ssj4 is a superior transformation than ssjgod why? ssjgod is like an additional element the reason it looked so good in the beginning is because everyone shared ki with Goku on top of ssjgod before fighting Beerus but as soon as it ended regular ssj was doing fine it's a stat boost but when later when goku found Vegeta training under whis he struggled with the same training thus the stat boost ended... and look at ssj4 Vegeta anyone who learns ssj4 gets a real stat boost while in the transformation and it's available to anyone who can handle the oozaru form and not some weird godly guess
Golden Great Ape would have to be at least 8x stronger than SSJ3, since Baby went from his SSJ equivalent to what is most likely his SSJ3 equivalent after beating SSJ3 Goku and was still surpassed by Golden Great Ape Goku. So 500x base (or only 1.25x SSJ3) wouldn't really work with that power progression. I assume that Golden Great Ape is actually SSJ3 + Oozaru instead of SSJ1 + Oozaru, since the multipliers are more consistent there.
And if you want to be technical, SSJ3 can be considered a mutation of SSJ1 due to Toriyama mentioning in a 2014 Saikyo Jump interview that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are just powered up variants of SSJ1, and that SSJ1 could potentially be trained to the point of equaling their multipliers without any drawbacks. So retroactively (this info was revealed _way_ after GT concluded), you can say Oozaru + SSJ would use SSJ3 multipliers anyways.
Then, since Baby also became a Golden Great Ape and still lost to SSJ4 when both were brought back to full power, you can say that SSJ4 is at least a 10x mult on top of that, bringing it to 100x SSJ3 or 40,000x base minimum.
Still most likely weaker than SSJG, who upscales a theoretical SSJ3 Vegito (who is at the very least 160,000x base).
He's actaully far higher than that tbh, because think of it that way, we have ssj3 goku who is 400x stronger than base, we have ssj gotenks alone probably as strong as ssj3 goku due to fighting super buu and even holding back, making gotenks ssj3 400x on top of 400x, which would make it 160.000x, now we have gohan who is above ssj3 gotenks making him also above 160.000x, we have buu who is still most likely above gotenks as well, making him 160.000x, we have piccolo who is probably ssj level making him 50x, buu absorbed all 3 of them, meaning it will be 160.000 × 160.000 × 160.000 × 50 = 204,800,000,000x
Now we have base vegito alone in base form at least equal to buuhan, making him have that multiplier, now we have ssj which is also 50 × 204,800,000,000 = 10,240,000,000,000×...
SSJG is very highly underestimated in terms of multipliers (sorry for acting like a nerd)
Ssj god was literally shaking the entire universe and almost destroyer of course is not even close the power gap is huge ssj4 as impressive as it is couldn’t even come close to destroying a universe
Thank you. Finally, someone explained it. I am so sick of some ignorant SS4 and GT fans.
@@s.s.k7081 to be honest, most cant even scale GT accurately while others rely on Super’s inconsistent scaling
Both sides have a valid reason to bicker on which better as both shows r practically impossible to accurately scale as feats are either over exaggerated or downplayed, and statements get ignored for the majority of
The only way scaling can even be fixed is if toei or toyotaro does an official scaling by giving the forms an official multiplier to work with. Until that comes out ur basically gonna have the same arguments over and over again
@@hbshadow8981😂
I like the fire aura of SSJ God Goku but in terms of design SSJ4 takes the cake easily
I mean, I guess he technically isn't 'stronger' in his kid state. But GT Goku as an adult has a LOT more advantages compared to little goku. From being able to use super saiyan 3, to instant transmission and just in general reach.
I think gt and super just have bad scaling in general. GT is super inconsistent and one arc could have super saiyan 4 goku struggling against the main villain then have base goku demolishing a villain in the next arc after being stated to be the strongest ki he ever felt. Super's power scaling got so inflated they had to double back on statements, best example being beerus.
What are u talking about ? Best ki he has ever felt is a statement about Super baby form where Ssj4 didn't even exist yet . Never before the change state is Base Goku actually becoming stronger in base than what his ssj4 couldn't beat and there's always good reasoning for why in a couple fights his base beats an opponent after ssj4 lost cuz it's not all about power levels . Hell even when he wins in ssj4 after Baby arc its often not only about power level .
But super does this weird god absorbing into base thing which makes people think he can stack all the transformations on that power to become stronger but ssjb is literally stated as ssj on top of god absorbed base in RoF guide with no other stacking mentioned in between .
Many ppl tends to forget the movies are tied to gt so gt Goku is way more stronger than ppl think
Will you make a video about Shigoku Kyou and how good his manipulation is?
Ssj 4 vegito vs Beerus would've been a good fight but beerus would still one shot he was holding back against ssj god Goku
My life has went from people thinking super saiyan 4 goku is like base goku in super level, to stronger than ui, to weaker than super saiyan god.
Basically yeah
He's weaker than God Goku from the BOG movie. That Goku is Universe+ and SSJ4 Goku is barely scraping those Galaxy levels. Anime SSJG Goku is far beyond the movie version, he's Multi Universal.
@@CerealExperimentsMizuki this is probably the dumbest shit I've ever seen. Goku has been galaxy level since the buu saga debatabley the cell saga.
@@yourordinarystranger366 there's nothing that shows anybody except for Vegito and Ultimate Gohan Buu in DBZ being Galaxy+ to Multi Galaxy Level.
This isn’t nuanced enough, like Super Saiyan God with every other instance of comparison to Potara/Fusion has Vegetto/Gogeta or Kefla in their Base Forms outperforming Goku in his God Forms.
Super Saiyan 4 has a direct comparison to Super Saiyan Potara in guides and GT implies only Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta supersedes Yi Xing Long
And speaking of, the over-time thing doesn’t really matter here, he can gather all his minus energy into single attacks and we even saw that his corrosion wasn’t even destroying cities instantly. Like using the same comparison, Piccolo Daimao destroying a city instantly would be more impressive.
No if goku combine ssj with great ape wont do a thing if ssj3 goku can barely do damage to baby in ssj3 what's a golden great ape which is combined with ssj will only be 500x a 25% boost which wont make a difference at all so he combined ssj3 with great ape and not ssj1 with great ape
SSJ4 wins in terms of cool factor and design. Based on power alone, I have to give it to SSJ Red. Even though we knew nothing of gods of destructions and angels in DB: GT (as they weren't officially created as a concept yet), we can clearly see that Beerus is significantly stronger than Omega Shenron and it's not even close. This would imply that SSJ4 would get bodied by Beerus and SSJ Red would body Omega. Without official multipliers, like what @AventSir stated, it's impossible to officially scale them because for all we know, Omega Shenron's power could've been the same as Beerus in GT (since Beerus wasn't officially created as a concept yet), or he could be much weaker. Based on statements in the show, I believe SSJ Red is significantly stronger than SSJ4 but as a form and design wise, I vastly prefer SSJ4 and I wish that SSJ Red would've recycled SSJ4 as "SSG".
What if Both...
God ki upgrades SSJ4 clearly
SSJ4 wins and it is not even close and here is why...
When the 14th movie of DBZ was in production, it was stated that the events of Beerus and Goku's fight took place before the start of GT.
If GT and DBZ Movie 14 are not separate timelines then Base Goku GT is more than enough to destroy SSG Goku
That’s if it remains canon, atm GT Goku per the timeline is just as strong as end Z Goku No God power, nothing as Super wasn’t conceptualized yet, if they retcon Gt then this argument is invalid.
@@L3Vł4TH4N.7 Movie 14 and DBS are separate timelines!!
Movie 14 and DBGT according to Toei are connected, therefore GT Goku vs Goku Movie 14 isn't a conversation because EOZ Goku in base is above Movie 14 Goku.
@@spiritualwarrior5690 I’m not talking about Bio Broly I’m talking about First Movie Broly, sure they’re separate timelines but Gohan hadn’t reached SSJ2 yet, it’s fair to say he isn’t as strong as SSJ2 Gohan when fighting cell. But again if you wanna use separate timelines, GT isn’t canon and likely will be a separate timeline since the new forms we’re seeing now don’t coincide with GT. the closest we’ve seen to any SSJ4 is The new Broly movie where his eyes turn yellow like Goku’s, he acceses his ozaru form without having to turn into a great ape. But it isn’t ssj4 so for now GT is still not canon.
5:12 are you really implying that SSJ3 Goku was never stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta? What? Goku was always stronger than all of them in the Buu Arc. Vegeta stated this in both the manga DBZ and the anime DBZ Kai which are synonymous to each other which means they are both canon.
1) Kid Buu was referred to and specifically in detail mentioned and referenced as both The Original & The Strongest Majin Buu.
2) End of Z Goku specifically mentions and references Kid Buu’s defeat. Bcuz Kid Buu was the Strongest. There are both statements and feats that explain this.
What this means is since this is a priority at the end of Z highlighting Kid Buu as both the Strongest Majin Buu & The Main Villain whom was defeated.
It only makes sense, that any fan of GT should use that specific reference tying to kid blue because he is the main villain of the third ark. He was the strongest villain which is referenced and proven, and he was he had to be defeated which he was defeated. You guys continuing to skip over Kid Buu shows how disingenuous you are as a fan base. Even dragon ball super specifically mentions Kid Buu and uses kid Buse defeat as a referencing point. Specifically they mention him. They mention fat boot and they mention Kid Buu. Also because New information is highlighted in dragon ball super manga, which is Kid Buu absorbed God “ki” energy. It was transferred from Fat Buu to Kid Buu. This highlights how special Kid Buu is, because the strongest villain was reincarnated after his death into the strongest Earthling.
3) SSJ3 Goku was heavily suppressed versus Fat Buu. A heavily suppressed SSJ3 Goku is weaker than a Maximum Power Level SSJ3 Gotenks.
The emphasis is on Goku’s being heavily suppressed. Not been anywhere near his maximum power level. So when Goku raise his maximum power level, he is far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
The story narrative proves Goku is far stronger than Gotenks. The story narrative also proves that Gohan is far stronger than Gotenks. It specifically mentions that Gohan became stronger than Vegeta and stronger than Gotenks. But it never mentions that Gohan ever became stronger than Goku. There is not one mention there is not one hint there’s not one specific dialogue or anything.
That is because Goku was always stronger than Gohan. He was stronger than Gohan by leaps and bounds because Gohan is weaker than Vegeta prior to Vegeta getting a Zen Kai boost through the Majin Magic Power up.
It is utterly foolish for any fan to try to insinuate that SSJ3 Goku is weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks. Here is why.. Super Buu (SSJ3 Gotenks Absorbed) reverted to Super Buu + Piccolo.. Goku is far stronger in his SSJ3 form, so is base form Gohan. Since Goku & Gohan is Stronger than Super Buu + Piccolo that means both Goku & Gohan are Massively Overwhelmingly Stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks bcuz SSJ3 Gotenks is equal to Super Buu w/o any absorptions.
How are you and many other fans miss this is because you are downplaying Goku’s‘s strength. And upscaling Gotenks strength you’re also upscaling Gohan strength. But this isn’t the first time you guys are doing it but it’s one of the main pivotal points that you guys play especially in this arc.
One thing that has never happened and never will happen is we have never lied on Goku strength we have never upscaled him and we have never down played him or discredited him. But this happens a lot to a lot of the fans of Gohan and a lot of the fans of a cheetah. There’s a lot of lies being told in favor of their character but that are not in favor of Goku. And that’s what’s happening here. Because the story narrative is being told and explain exactly as I just broke it down. This person is this wrong this person was this week this person gain power this person stronger than this person and that person but they’re definitely not stronger than this person. Because the story narrative is showing and telling and explaining. But certain fans are getting it twisted because their own internal bias comes into play. Their own internal head cannon a.k.a. wishful thinking override what is actually being shown in the story.
Super Saiyan 3 is Not a 400x Multiplier.
The Story Narrative in The Manga DBZ & The Anime DBZ KAI dictates “Goku Is The Strongest In The Universe.” However, Base form Gotenks is slightly Stronger than Base Form Goku.
This is what it is in both Manga & anime. What is established as true is this: 1) Super Saiyan 3 Goku Is The Strongest In The Universe. 2) Base Form Gotenks is Stronger than Base Form Goku.
How is this possible? The Super Saiyan 3 Transformation must have a range. A minimum multiplier is 200x, the Maximum Multiplier is 300x. SSJ3 Gotenks can attain the minimum multiplier but does not have the maximum multiplier. SSJ3 Goku does have the Max Multiplier. It must be highlighted that Gotenks did not get stronger than Goku in his base form until after his hyperbolic time chamber training.
Goku - 3,600,000,000. Super Saiyan Goku - 180,000,000,000. Super Saiyan 2 Goku - 360,000,000,000. Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Suppressed ) - 720,000,000,000.
Gotenks - 4,000,000,000. Super Saiyan Gotenks - 200,000,000,000. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks - 800,000,000,000. (Stronger than heavily Suppressed SSJ3 Goku)
This is what Goku meant when he said he would bring a warrior stronger than (him) the heavily suppressed version of Goku’s SSJ3.
Super Buu - 800,000,000,000 is equal to SSJ3 Gotenks - 800,000,000,000. Base Form Gohan @ 900 Billion or 1 Trillion is Far Stronger than Gotenks & Super Buu.
Goku 3.6 Billion x 300 = 1,080,000,000,000. One Trillion, Eighty Billion. Overwhelmingly Stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
Super Buu 800 Billion = SSJ3 Gotenks 800 Billion. Super Buu 800 Billion + Piccolo 100 Billion = 900 Billion. Super Buu + Piccolo was afraid to fight a Suppressed SSJ3 Goku, Super Buu (SSJ3 Gotenks Absorbed) was dominating previously. Remember Goku only stepped in to fight, when Super Buu aka Fusion Buu held the advantage over Gohan & Goku.
This means Gohan’s power level was most likely 1 trillion, and Goku at full power is 1 Trillion 80 Billion. This means both Goku and Gohan are in the same realm of power even though Goku is still far stronger. This excludes Gotenks bcuz Gotenks is not in the same realm of power and is far weaker than both of them individually. No matter whether you choose the manga DBZ or the anime DBZ Kai, this means unanimously SSJ3 Gotenks is the third strongest in the universe.
The battle for The No. 1 Strongest In The Universe is between Goku & Gohan. You cannot trust a Power scaler, who puts Goku who is in the upper echelon of power, as the third strongest when clearly both the manga DBZ and the anime DBZ Kai which are synonymous to one another are saying the same thing. Goku is not the third strongest Goku is the Strongest. Gohan is the 2nd Strongest.
For the argument sake, let’s pretend Goku is the second strongest. Even under those circumstances, that means it would make far more sense to misplace a Goku who is 2nd Strongest as No 1. But Goku is genuinely the strongest. And you’re taking him from number one and placing him as number three. If he were number two you’re not even gonna place an ad number to your steel placing him at number three. So what is shells is that many of the fans are heavily downplaying Goku’s strength. While simultaneously upscaling the strength of Gohan and Gotenks. This goes against the story narrative. Because again the story narrative has established that Goku is the strongest. Goku is the only ZHU fighter who kept on lying about how strong he truly was. He lied and he was hiding how strong he truly was. He was also the only Z fighter who is never impressed with Goten and Trunks has power levels, why is that? Because when you are the strongest everybody else who is so far from your power looks like an ant in comparison. Let’s not forget SSJ2 Gohan was far weaker than Vegeta, prior to Magic Majin power up.
SSJ3 go tanks is not in the same realm of power as Goku and Gohan, because his power level is in the hundred billion place value. It’s in the high hundred billions place value, but it is still in the hundreds billions place value. Therefore he’s not in the same realm nor in the same level of power as both Goku and Gohan. So placing someone who’s on a lower level higher than someone who has a higher level is contradictory at its finest.
Where do you agree with the multipliers in the numbers are not, you have to agree with the story narrative. Which is Goku is the strongest. And what’s funny enough is this lines up perfectly with DBZ movie 13 wrath of the dragon. Which takes place one over one month after the defeat of Kid Buu. Again this is reference point. Akira Toyama stated before his untimely demise, that any DBZ movie that does not fit perfectly within the main timeline, takes place in an alternate timeline similar to or identical to Future trunks alternate timeline.
Hierarchy of power in DBZ movie 13 wrath of the dragon which is canon to the main timeline is 1) Super Saiyan 3 Goku. 2) Base Form Gohan. 3) Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. 4) Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.
Bro all the connections are there. All the feats are there. All the statements are aligned the feats. The Buu Arc Hierarchy is Identical to DBZ Movie 13.
This falls in line with DBZ movie 14 battle of gods. The Z fighters have all regarded Goku as the strongest in the universe. This means that he has been the strongest since The Buu Arc.
This is why there is never any mention of Goku surpassing Gohan in B.O.G. movie and Super Arc. Because Goku was always stronger, in reference to The Buu Arc.
What undeniably reinforces this is Vegeta‘s rage boost power up. Substantiate it as well as narrated by master Roshi. “Vegeta’s Power Up has Made him even Stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
Why is Vegeta surpassing Goku in Battle Of Gods so important? Bcuz SSJ2 Vegeta is still weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks & Base Form Gohan Inner Potential Unlocked. By surpassing Goku, The Strongest In The Universe, in reference to the Buu Arc, in connection to B.O.G. Vegeta became “The Strongest In The Universe” the moment he surpassed Goku. Why? Bcuz Goku was always the Strongest. Vegeta finally surpassed SSJ3 Gotenks & Gohan, by surpassing SSJ3 Goku. This is a monumental moment Goku secretly witnessed in the background.. The infamous “My Bulma” scene Goku perfectly imitates to Vegeta, Piccolo & Bulma at the end of movie/ arc.
The only thing I disagree with in the video is that vegito NEVER went full power against buuhan so It's impossible for baby to truly know vegito's maximum power. That's why I take the SS4's power being equal to Super Vegito as fact and if you want more information about SS4 goku vs Super vegito I'll link where I got my information from. ua-cam.com/video/rNKrmgS_1jg/v-deo.htmlsi=TjVCvZE6B6gNHVFP
ua-cam.com/video/rNKrmgS_1jg/v-deo.htmlsi=TjVCvZE6B6gNHVFP
ua-cam.com/video/rNKrmgS_1jg/v-deo.htmlsi=TjVCvZE6B6gNHVFP
@@supersaiyanprimalbroly31 i mean, the logic works the same way when goku says fusion wont be enough to deal with beerus
Goku and vegeta at the end of the day would somehow know how strong the overall fusion is, especially as baby has been shown to access the memories of his host (hence y he found which city the sayains were living in/nearby)
Even then, goten saying baby was the strongest he ever fought in the sub of GT breaks that logic where ssj4=super vegito Considering goten fought super buu as gotenks, implying baby and goten are bith stronger than super buu and baby from that point grew much more stronger till he reached vegeta
Also, do be careful with GT scalers as most skip over official statements said in the anime when scaling, causing it to be heavily downplayed , especially the vegito and ssj4 statements from a guide that is both ambiguous and inconsistent when statements from the anime comes to mind
All of your arguments are invalid for one reason: none of GT is canon, if the canon manga retcons the timeline then GT feats are useless. Goku’s punch alone would destroy the entire universe and that’s before he trained the form and then adds Blue. GT meanwhile has Goku getting rocked by a Doubled Up android 17. SSG would obliterate SSJ4 and it’s not remotely close. And remember, the current timeline is clearly retconning GT’s timeline since Gohan Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo all have new forms that weren’t seen in GT. “dAs bEcAusE SuPeR wAsnT MaDe yEt!” Which is precisely why GT holds no merit. I love SSJ4 don’t get me wrong, but it doesn’t hold a fuckin candle to SSG Goku at his peak.
ssj4 goku may be weaker, but his hacks and speed are way better. base gt goku is WELL above instant transmission and kaikai, considering negative death ball(pretty much hakai, as it literally uses existence and fate erasure) not only CHASED kaikai, but INVADED AND DESTROYED IT as well, with kaikai being confirmed beyond time space dimensions. this would mean ssj4 goku outspeeds even ssjg gokus shockwave feat.
also, i dont see people mention that shins/omegas feats are OUT OF PROPORTION. First, fundemetnally his aura works the same as universal zamasu. his energy alone is causing the macrocosm to merge, degrade, and eventually cease to exist. what people fail to mention is that this is when hes STANDINTG STILL and NOT DOING ANYTHING. Whats better, being low multiversal/macrocasm at your MAXIMUM while clashing with a better opponent, or doing something relative to that BY GOING OUT FOR ICECREAM.(the guides outright confirm that the shockwaves happened for two reasons, goku not knowing how to punch properly with god power and beerus simply not caring to. meaning this isnt a full ap feat. at most, it makes it similar to the superman v superman feat (ppl used to say superman was multiversal++++ because of his fight against himself, even though the collapse itself was caused by a villain. meaning it wasnt superman v superman destroying the multiverse, but rather the infinitely SHRINKING/IMPLODING multiverse. goku made shockwaves not because of the power itslef, but because of his usage of it and the person hes up against. this is why we rarely actually see universal/multiversal feats as toei doesnt make them with scaling in mind)
so EVEN IF ssjg goku is stronger (even though they function on the same scaling, that beyind beyond fullpower vegito, the literal only feat that makes this talk worthy is the shockwave shit) ssj4 goku should be infinitely faster due to Super goku not having a remotely close feat until the granola arc where he PLAYS TAG with IT rather than outright being faster than it like GT goku is( yes GT goku is faster than IT. kaiaki has been stated many times to be a superior or godly varaint of IT just like potara and fusion dance. not only was ssj4 baby saga goku faster and stronger than revenge death ball, a kaikai outscaler, but EOGT goku unlocks what the GT story writer and gokus VA refer to as "change." the story writer leaves it open to interpretation, but gokus VA of over 50 years now makes it clear and cut. goku DIED and became enlightened. he gained an aura of Change that "allows to attacks to reach him," the ability to be anywhere whenever he wants instantly meaning its better than IT and KaiKai as not only does it function the same as kaikai overcoming ITs weakness of not being able to enter/exit places like hell without permission but also gives him access to the dragon realm making goku LITERALLY inaccessible/irrelevant speeds/power. pair that with his unquantifiable wishing potential(i hate ppl who dog on this reason by saying this is unscalable. no the fuck it isnt. we KNOW that wishes scale to the person, and EOGT/100yts goku are at the very very least low multiversal similar to god goku. that alone would make gokus wishing potential Super dragon ball RELATIVE bare minimum because we know he outscales all know dragons which are at most low-high macrocasm and we know FOR SURE that he outscales shadow dragon whomst was confirmed to be a universal tier/wiping wishing dragon unlike shenron making him the strongest aside from super dragon ball, xeno, and GT goku himself. pair that with Super's shitty writing and theres no way ANY super goku can win.
if GRANOLA can become as strong as goku and vegeta post moro arc by trading life force with a PARUNGA RELATIVE wishing dragon, GT goku can easily say "make me infinitely stronger at the cost of me skipping dinner tonight." OR LESS and hed instantly outscale in any way possible.
even ONLY taking baby saga ssj4, ssjg would have to deal with healing power on par with itself, blue level ki control, kaioken mastered attacks like x10 kamehameha, ssj4s ki adaptation meaning hed either copy god ki OR hit him with the good ol Broly Reversal, ssj4s damage adaptation adapting to the power signature of ssjg itself, ssj4s limit breaking(has no multiplier similarly to mystic, but unlike mystic and closer to mui/ego/beast/fpssj it makes you go PAST your full potential until depowered which also lets you grow rapidly afterwards. im pretty much saying ssj4 can do just as it does in the show many times and just as mui did in super, make goku go from weaker than someone at his maximum to relative if not stronger than them with lower forms if not base in a single fight,) draconic ki manipulation(( PEOPLE USUALLY IGNORE THIS but GT DOES HAVE GODLY KI. we see several times that draconic energy/ki is superior to basic, has special properties unique to the user, and cannot actively be sensed or comprehended by mortals.we see this with all shadows as only goku and vegeta have been shown EXPLICITLY sensing them/their energy while everyone else pressure/visually guages(like piccolo does a lot in Super) as well as when goku Changes and everyone can both feel and not feel goku at the same time (krillin specifically, it seems goku has Emperor of Mankind affect and makes people extremely uncomfortable when seen/noticed for lack of better words. his presenc literally makes people question their eyes/sensing abilities. apart of this draconic manipulation is positive/negative kis WHICH ARE SEPARATE from positive and negative genki. positive/negative enegy manip are SOLELY unique to ssj4s and shadow dragons. normal goku and baby use GENKI for their attacks, which are the positive/negative sides of LIFE energy specifically. we see positive energy manip in final shine attack and dragon fist/change aura/final spirit bomb. we see negative from the dragons. then ssjg has to deal with ssj4m having a soft ui and moving instinctually on top of all that??
i also wanna scale ssj4 itself. starting from ssj1/2 baby is where scaling STATEMENT wise gets EVEN with super, both baby and ssjg beyond stated/hinted(baby stated, ssjg hinted) to be beyond fp vegito. now we know that ssj1 baby already outmatched ssj3 goku, ssj2 and 3 were just meant to show off. it was when baby was in ssj1/2 that goku outright states he is the strongest saiyan power to ever exist. this same baby who outscaled a ssj3 GOKU in ssj1 later SHIT HIMSELF against a great ape goku while as a ssj3. this would make golden ape goku alone in the several thousands of amps beyond ssj3 just to even get on par with baby, but to make him cower in fear?? golden ape is easily sitting at the 10k-50k amp range
CONTINUE READING IN REPLIES, ALSO HAS TLDR
ssj4, at its weakest, is ON PAR with a x1000 AMPED GOLDEN APE BABY. ive seen too many people say that the general range for g ape and ssj4 is 10k and 50k(which is false anyways according to toei, whether its games, Heroes, or Gt files theres always one universal fact. ssj4 has no set multiplier. its classified as limit breaker for a reason.) in order for ssj4 AT ITS WEAKEST(goku at the time was literally about to die prior to transforming meaning even as a ssj4 he was still wiped out) to compete almost ON PAR with a x1000 golden ape(doesnt matter if you think it only amped health/dura or ap fact is that baby took in more because he and bulma deemed it worthwile so he FOR SURE gained something from the extra blutz) from BABY whomst was already stronger than him by hundreds of times would make ssj4s TECHNICAL multiplier in the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. and as we saw, a full power fresh ssj4 absolutely manhandles a x1000+ golden ape, hundreds of multiples in difference between fighters having even less importance.ssj4 isnt 2x golden ape, or even 5x, its DOZENS of multiplier differences. ssj4 can also full tank, absorb, outspeed, and out power a negative deathg ball. so ssj4 has fate and erasure manip/neg and is irrelevant in speed. this all happened in ONE ARC less than 5 episodes apart, with other couple of arcs with even CRAZIER power jumps than this
TLDR: while ssjg goku MAYBE has power advantage, GT goku definitively has better hacks and speed feats on paper and by toei official statements as well as experience and skill. ssjg with big power and decent speed cant do anything to a guy whose naturally faster than IT and KaiKai, can wish to be stronger, has pretty much every Super god saiyan hack considering ssj4 is where the inspiration originally came from(this cannot be argued, ssjg took colors and rituals, ssjb took ki control, mui took instincts, ego took adaptation. goku black stole the xicor saga from AF, TOP came from multiversal tournament of AF, brolys ikari taking after ssj4, the list literally goes on. Hell, the only reason toyo even writes super is because akira hired him after reading AF himself when toyo was still toyble. GT/AF was IMPERATIVE to Super, its powers, and story,) has STATED invulnerability being the Change state aura,and can freely increase his power through kaio/positive ki manip means.
also forgot to say this before but dragon fist should easily overcome the difference in power, its special hack is preeeeeeeeetty much dura neg. as shin, eis and super 17 show, you can be over 20x stronger than goku(x10 kame is usually seen as 10x the og 2.2x so 10x kame = 20-20.4x) in a LITERAL sense(both of them not only full tanked a 10x kameha wave, but both either already completely outscaled it or absorbed it and more outright) just for them both (technically) to get ONE shot by dragon fist, once of which was in base. even if 17 was off guard, base goku still one tapped a dude who was over 20x stronger than his strongest form....in terms of eis, GT confirmed verbally that eis is superior to nouva. goku struggled with nouva, but then proceeded to one shot eis without even being able to see. case and point. theres seriously no way people should argue that ssjg is beating a dude physically relative to himself ap wise, is infinitely faster, has better hacks and experience, infinitely evolving form, and a technical dura neg ability that would make up for any power difference.
i know many will decide not to read, but please try. GT is really undeserving of the hate it gets. toyo gets that, akira gets that. without GT and AF we wouldnt have Super or at least not in the way it is. respect gt. (also if u say Gt was written poorly because of the adventure style stfu fake ahh fan. true db enjoyers liked GT bcuz just like akira and toyo both said its nostalgic. its the best of DB with the best of Z. adventure and combat. was it rushed? yeah. was the animation subpar? yeah its DB that wasnt literally Z your point? just like super, GT has a lotta good art and a lotta bad. all in all Gt was fun
ssj4 goku may be weaker, but his hacks and speed are way better. base gt goku is WELL above instant transmission and kaikai, considering negative death ball(pretty much hakai, as it literally uses existence and fate erasure) not only CHASED kaikai, but INVADED AND DESTROYED IT as well, with kaikai being confirmed beyond time space dimensions. this would mean ssj4 goku outspeeds even ssjg gokus shockwave feat.
All of this just to be told “no bro, ur wrong” with zero explanation y ur wrong
Yes that comment is coming from someone eventually as ppl enjoy downplaying GT feats
@@hbshadow8981 lmfao classic db fandom fr
@@sabichaokujo3307though I don't agree with universal or low multiversal cuz they are well above that
And yes , gt gets hate for a reason but some outright slander the shit out of it which is stupid
@@BROKEN_1212 yeah i only gave low tiers to appease the supertards(it still works in my favor, as even a nerfed GT goku whose ap is less than ssjg should still stomp him) because most scale BoG goku to low-mid uni/multiversal. i do personally believe he actually doesnt scale that well in BoG, and people use his feat out of context by using superman v himself as reference. like i said, god goku IS NOT performing the feat.
akira/toei said in guides/promos for both BoG anime and movie that goku simply FORGOT what hes been doing since Z, force cancelation. he was hitting beerus’ fist halfway and it was the force from BEERUS colliding with goku that caused everything, not goku to beerus. meaning its mostly a beerus feat, as goku simply changed how he was punching and not the force itself. of course goku scales to this, just not fully. making him low-mid multiversal instead of high multiversal with ssjb. also, im a firm believer that ssjg WAS stronger in BoG up until goku black/top. this is because beerus himself just by existing makes plotholes, and goku v beerus is the literal best showing from god. both manga and anime make god appear extremely weak compared to the one from BoG
but yeah GT slander is truly wild. the only things i understand is complaints on pacing, animation, and overdoing the cool teenager pandering. aside from that, its LITERALLY prime dragon ball and everything akira wanted in dragon ball. thats literally the main reason why Super takes so damn much from GT. and i said prime db for a reason, as thats separate from prime Z
People delete about this
This is easy, GT is Goku 10 years after Z vs Super Goku 7 months after Z. Goku kept up his training in GT, Goku was working in Super. He went training to King Kai's planet. GT, even if you want to use Buuhan anime destroying the universe with his scream feat, is not comparable to Goku's Super feat of destroying a macrocosm with Red.
You guys are tripping. Goku was working with 10 years of training and experience in GT vs 7 months in Super, he would be "weaker" than GT Goku before Red, yet stronger after even with 4.
Red is FAR stronger than 4, as he even absorbed that red for his base.
Bro super takes place 4 years after z not 7 months.
Base GT Goku after sugoroku space destruction feat >
Freiza closed the gap between himself and blueberry Goku in 4 months 😂 I'm pretty confident GT goku slams.
You guys literally forgot that base gt goku shook heaven and hell just by powering up to show off and it’s already been stated both heaven and hell are two different realms/dimensions.
Isn’t ssj4 a 4000x multiplier?
Super Saiyan god easily. Unlike Super Saiyan 4, Super Saiyan god offers more than just power. The form even has better feats while SSJ4 only has a better design 💯
You just said shit instead of explaining anything. You said God offers more than just power and literally followed up with it has better feats.
@@yourordinarystranger366 Why don't you just ask for an explanation instead of being toxic? I swear this fanbase is crazy af 🤣🤣🤣
" unLike SupEr sAiyAn 4 , sUper sAiyAn gOd oFfErs mOre tHan jUst pOwer 🤓🤡 " Sit down bud this ain't the opposite day XD
@@humanman9920what you talking about ssj4 is just another power up nothing else really
@@humanman9920 Keep crying that your favourite transformation was an literal ass pull with mediocre writing behind it 🤡
We can easily discover house super Saiyan four Goku is stronger than super sand god. And no we don’t have to know the multipliers to understand this. It’s basic common sense. Let’s pretend well we don’t have to pretend it’s true. GT Goku takes place in an alternate timeline. The only difference between GT Goku and ended and super Goku is how they achieve their power is very different. In Dragon Ball super we have the super Saiyan god forms the red god form and the blue god form. But in GT‘s timeline which is just the time skip we don’t know what happened within that tenure time skip at the end of Z for the GT timeline. We just know Goku is the strongest by the end of Z. So at the end of Z this is where GT timeline and Super timeline meet. Now GT still doesn’t have any of the transformations that Super has. But one thing as common is that GT Goku at the end of Z is just as strong as Super Goku’s. In regards to the red guard form and the blue guard form it’s more or less on par. They achieve the same level of power we don’t know how he achieved a percent other than you know traditional training for the GT timeline. This is what takes precedence so I understand.
Dragon ball super stops at the end of Z. GT timeline continues 10 years after end of Z. What this means is Goku gets 10 years worth of strength added on top of end of Z. This is all contributing to GT timeline Goku’s. So with that we know how strong Goku can get within one year, hell we know how strong Goku gets within one day. So Goku got 10 years to train it is without a doubt that he grew far more powerful than his end of the counterparts self. GT timeline, because he proceeded beyond that time limit for Super timeline Goku. And with that it’s no different than Star Wars the prequel‘s has better faster paced fights with newer technology to get the job done. But the original trilogy highlights levels of power that are on par with the prequel‘s and that exceed the prequel‘s power level. The fights don’t look as good there’s slower paced but we love the story we love the characters and we love the world building. That does not take away from the original trilogy episode 56 and I mean episode 45 and six the power levels displayed within their are equal to and surpass the power levels displayed in episode 12 and three. That’s the same difference. A Goku who has had 10 years worth of training that’s super Goku is limited from. Because super Goku has not superseded past the end of Z but GT timeline Goku has superseded past end of Z Goku. Super must stop at the end of ZGT has proceeded pass end of the 10 years to be approximate.
In the freezer ark Goku went from Apollo at 3 million in his base form 150 million as a Super saying. In the cell arc Goku base form is 3 billion and his super Saiyan form is 150, billion. Look at the difference in power level and realms of power different from the Frieza ark Goku to the cell games Goku. It is monumentally massive to say the least. And that’s only three maybe four years worth of training in between and that’s how strong Goku got within three maybe four years tops so with in seven years worth of training Goku created super Saiyan three and became the strongest in the universe this is without a doubt. “It was the use of ki that allowed Goku to become the strongest in the universe” - Akira Toriyama.
So just imagine for one moment how strong Goku could get with 10 years of training on interrupted? The difference between end of the Goku and the beginning of GT Goku is like the difference of SSJ4 Gogeta to SSJ Vegito Buu Arc. It is so massive it’s not incalculable, but the difference in power would be something like lord Beerus versus super Saiyan three Goku. That is the massive gap in difference between power levels that GT has created. Because this is a Goku’s who is allowed to train for 10 years straight uninterrupted. Goku has shown throughout the story of DBZ how strong he gets or house right he can get within one weeks time one months time one years time. And then he’s been able to compound and progressively transcend that level of training in a far shorter time period. I.e. the hyperbolic time chamber taking a whole years worth of training and permitting it to one day. The quantifiable game or elevation of Goku‘s power level would be so monumented, he could very well easily using a DragonBallZGuru Super reference he would be stronger than the angel of their universe and he would easily be on par with their father I forget his name but he’s the angel who is the father to all angels. That’s how massive Goku‘s power level would be in comparison for 10 years training straight.
It’s just a natural progression in hierarchy yes you can have a super naturally strong 18 year old self versus a 28 year old self. But see that 28 year old self has 10 more years to supersede that the naturally the supernaturally fit eight-year-old. That’s 10 years of training that the 18-year-old does not get to progress in. That a stopping point now both parties are able if both timeline versions of yourself 18-year-old you and then 28 year old you are able to progress at the same point in time even if you got the same power. It can get a tiny bit confusing if you don’t focus on what’s being said and how it’s being said. But it makes a lot of sense. You can be a super naturally strong 10 year old child with the strength that she would have a 30. That would make you equal to yourself at 30. But then you do you have a stopping point for your supernatural 10 year old self but your 31 S. gets a change for the Nother 10 years so now I don’t you older but you are far more powerful that’s the that’s the huge gap the huge lead the huge advantage you have over someone who stopped progressing. The same in a potential is there but one stop progressing in the other got to progress 10 years in advance. The one who got to progress 10 years in advance with mudstomp the one who stopped progressing for whatever reason. GT super Saiyan four Goku wins. And we don’t even need to know what the multiplier is to know this.
Super Saiyan 4 is the most overrated transformation in this franchise
Ofcourse it's more fan Favorite 😂
Not gonna lie i kinda agree
Its like the favourite child that cant do no wrong
Ui is the most overrated form in DB
yeah dude, super saiyan 4 is overrated even though only the minority of gt fans like it and everyone else consistently downgrades and shits on it.
Cry lmao , best form of the franchise
Yeah because ssj god is only 64 million time multiplier while ssj4 is in the billions
Ok but what about SSG-4
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
according to my calculations🤓 this is kind of wrong. because ssj4 is actually crazy strong, thus it may having a multiplier of 1.6 billion. before yo ass freak out, lemme tell why. We know that ssj3 has a 400x multiplier in base. and super baby 2 demolished goku and super baby 2 multiplier is 400x. so we could say that super baby 2 is 160 000 times stronger than BASE baby saga goku. Not ssj3, BASE. the reason why is if ssj3 has a 400x multiplier and super baby 2 demolished goku this kind of would mean that super baby 2 is 400x stronger than ssj3 goku (aint sure so dont write a bunch of crap excluding my multiplier so you can help and correct me since im not very great at scaling). And 400 times 400 is 160 000. so super baby 2 is 160 000 times stronger than BASE baby saga goku thus making it that power multiplier. After that when goku becomes a ssj4 baby needs to match his power because its so great, he becomes a golden oozaru. but something is wrong.... baby gained 1000x more bruits waves than he actually should and this multiplies the power a lot more. now if golden oozaru is a 500x multiplier we gon do 500 times 1000 because baby gained 1000x more bruits waves which multiplies his power by 1000, making it a 500 000x multiplier. this might sound weird which i completely agree because this is crazy af. then we are going to multiply this with super baby 2 because he was getting demolished in that form and according to me babys multiplier on that form is 160 000x. so this would mean we need to MULTIPLY 160 000 WITH 500 000x. and this becomes 80 BILLION TIMES MULTIPLIER WHICH MAKES SSJ4 80 BILLION TIMES BASE DUDE WTF. so my 1.6 billion multiplier was a LOW BALL. ok im not going into this again because its very hard to scale gt when you have dbs around. now both forms are cool, i just tried to make a multiplier which turned out to be CRAZY so yeah. as i said im new so this might be wrong pls tell me have a good day.
Wait the depiction of the universe is different in get and super
SSG has never made any sense as a transformation and is a poorly conceived concept. Why six pure hearted Saiyans? What about the same for humans or Namekians if that kind of Ki is supposedly universal and not the life force of the Kais who are instead capable of being sensed 🙄
Beerus and the other gods of destruction seems to run on the Hakai type so they’re clearly different.
The Potara Fusion is Vegeta X Goku, so 60 million.
The SSJ God is over 300 sextillion.
base vegetto is mu ch stronger than ssg goku, ssg goku couldn't even beat base kefla, so this whole "not even ssj3 vegetto would be enough to beat beerus" is horseshite that has long since been debunked years ago, meanwhile, ssj4 goku has been stated by GT Perfect files to be more or less the same level of power as SSJ Vegetto ... meaning SSH4 Goku is actually at least as powerful as SSB Goku
Ssj4 easily
ssj3 solos all on saiyan rage
bro make Hal vs Baku Madarame
Cool
Its not even hard its super saiyan god
SSJ4 easily.
Yeah it has way better perks whatever the multiplier is
Super Saiyan God is definitely stronger.
@@Yuujiji it isn't, it was confirmed ssj4 limit breaker was stronger than SSB but looses out to mastered ultra instinct
@@johnjackson2349 Limit Breaker SSJ4 and Regular SSJ4 are two completely different forms with two VERY DIFFERENT levels of power, buddy.
@@johnjackson2349 but heroes isn't canon tho? 🤔
Ssj4 wins its wraps for godki
A form that can't even destroy a galaxy is better than a form that is universal in its first appearance?
SSJ4 GOKU
Can you make that video
Can Ayanokoji kiyotaka catch johan liebert ?
my headcanon power levels:
ssj - 50x
ssj2 - 100x
ssj3 - 400x
ssj4 - 4000x
ssj god - 50,000x
ssjb - 500,000x
ssjbkkx20 - 10,000,000
ui - 100,000,000x
I can see why power levels were dropped along the way lmfao
SS4 is closer to 40k imo, SSG is likely in the millions, Blue is 50× God. Then for UI/MUI I'd also say it's way above 10× Blue Kaioken.
UI doesn't really have a power multiplier. Its just a technique.
@@CoreTradingMasteryit still gives him a boost in power though
Low-ball Ssj4 is at least 25k
Super Saiyan 4 is more like 20,000x as it's many times beyond the power of a SSJ3 going Ozaru which would be 4,000x itself and he also increases the multiplier when he uses FP SSJ4 so 20,000x seems reasonable.
SSJG is more like an over 160,000x boost as it far exceeds the levels of a theoretical SSJ3 Vegito.
SSJB was stated many times to be a SSJG with the power of or just straight up going SSJ so it's at least a 50x boost. If it works the same way as the Grade 4 SSJ then it's a 500x boost on top of SSJG.
Ultra Instinct the technique doesn't have any multiplier, it's a boost in power and a technique that he can merge with his base or any other transformation. MUI or TUI do however have multipliers as they are transformations that go beyond even stacking SSJB with UI.
I can't fathom the number as I have no basis to go off of but I will make a hypothetical educated guess. So if SSJG is around 160,000x and SSJB is a 500x highball on top of that, that would make SSJB an 80,000,000x boost.
Then Kaio-Ken x 20 would be 1,600,000,000x and an Omen UI gave a much bigger boost in power although it wasn't a transformation at that point, just something that boosted the power of his base and gave him much greater technique.
In the Granolah Saga, Goku is able to merge the technique of UI with SSJB and that gives him a bigger boost than Kaio-Ken x 20, and his MUI transformation is massively above that, most likely 80x aboce a SSJBKKX20 as he went from getting fodderised to doing the fodderising.
So that would make MUI a multiplier of 128,000,000,000x and TUI is massively above that as he was able to beat down Gas after achieving it and he was previously barely able to touch Gas with MUI. So I'd give it a lowball of 10x making it 1,280,000,000,000.
So the UI and SSJB boost are a lot bigger than you'd expect. Still smaller than the boost that Freeza got to get from Star level to Multi Universal+ in 3 Months. That'd be in the Untrigintillions at the very least. And that's not even factoring in the fact that DB Macrocosm are much bigger than just single Universes.
Shadow dragon arc is overkill. Goku pre ss4 actually beats bog goku but i digress
Base GT Goku with sugoroku space destruction feat already goes higher Ssj4 at all is overk*ll .
i think you are skipping many points for GT.
here are some of the arguments for GT goku being way stronger than tbh current Blue goku.
1. the Arc you skipped. the black star saga is having multiple power ups for goku. Goku surpassed his super saiyan multiple times. already giving him a a far higher mulitplier than you gave him.
2. The universe destruction feat you talk about is not that good coz that feat was already done by buuhan in Anime and GT goku at the start already far eclipes it. simply because in GT continuity, Z Anime confirmed that kid buu was stronger (said in show like 7-8 times). and uub was literally stronger than kid buu confirmed at end of Z. so even at the start of GT goku would already be far stronger than anyone in Z including Vegito in base as it was already confirmed in Z end episode that Goku was the strongest fighter.
3. Gt Goku has feat of affecting the realm of instant tranmission. that was confirmed to have no space-time. he even destroyed sugoroku space that was having no concept of dimensionality. that already makes GT goku far above ssg feat of threatening the macrocosm. its a way better feat giving GT goku higher dimesionality and nothing ssg does is even close to base GT feat of sugoroku space or baby vegeta warping the whole infnite realm that has no space or time.
4. from early GT to GT end youre only taking basic multiplier of ssj4 which isnt good multiplier for GT. As GT goku himself is having huge jumps in mulitpliers. he literally went to surpass his own full power ssj4 in just base form. and it happened multiple times. GT base goku got so many multipliers that at the end of GT hes even surpassing his super saiyan 4 multiple times over in just base.
5. the multiplier of 1.6 billion for basic ssj4 is pretty good overall estimate. i can prove that number as baby was bathed in 10000 times blutz wave, and base ssj4 was already surpassed by full power ssj4 and ultra full power ssj4 in shadow dragon arc. and all of it is surpassed by GT goku multiple times.
6. baby vegeta was able to warp instant transmission realm that is one of the greatest feats in dragon ball. and in GT even kabito kai was able to react in that no time moment. already giving GT goku far superior speed even if we dont take meta cooler movie feat. which btw would make GT goku even faster.
7. the Omega line for "he was gonna do it slowly" isnt right either. as it was shown that kabito kai wanted to move instantly but in ssg fight they werent as worried as Omega. btw this feat is done by omega just standing. he was just standing there bro.. he wasnt even trying.
8. GT goku also gets feats from DBZ movies as the characters are shown in super 17 arc. so fusion reborn feat, broly feat, meta cooler feat and many others would be counted. it not necessary to scale GT goku but it really solidifies the gap in DBS and DBGT even before the sho starts.
9. DBS goku showed an outerversal feat at DBS broly movie and GT Goku did that feat in base form in early GT. i think youre downplaying GT goku here. He already has far more impressive feats than even UI shaking world of void and stuff.
Overall GT goku far outclass DBS goku atleast for now coz we're forgetting that Z anime is far stronger than Z manga that DBS follows. GT goku gets all the filler feats and the Movies feats. a simple example is that Frieza in manga was barely Star level character in namek saga but in Z anime hes shown to be universal+ coz of spirit bomb scaling.
by all logic atleast for now GT goku claps BOG SSG in base probably.
This is what forms better not whos stronger retard😂
Everything you just said was so bad that I'm literally making an essay to debunk it
The BSS is a pointless arc, it does not provide anything and no strong feats to the table, Goku being stronger is just headcanon and the fact you think all his SSJ forms have a higher multiplier just because he **surpassed it** is not a good argument. It was an arc made to make fans nostalgic about og Dragon ball Adventure.
2 and 7: Buuhan was never going to destroy the universe🤦, you can say you don't understand the context but he was never going to destroy it directly. He was going to break the dimensional walls and they collapse and bleed into eachother, effectively destroying it. Buuhan was never doing it, he was just weakening the dimension barriers. Keep yapping on shit you don't understand.
Kid Buu is not stronger than Buuhan, this argument is so stupid you might as well say SSJ3 destroys Ultimate Gohan which is false. When requested about fusing, both of them say no but when they saw Super Buu when they were absorbed. They were literally shitting bricks saying they'd need to fuse to stand a chance against Super Buu. Also Z never stated Uub was stronger than Kid Buu, they said Uub was as strong as Kid Buu, because Goku in EOZ was as strong as himself in SSJ3 during Buu Arc.
SSJG multiplier is stronger than hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto that made Goku Go from Galaxy to Universal(low-ball). GT Goku still stays at the max of Multi-Galaxy and we still have more I need to debunk lol.
Like the Omega Feat, 'he wasn't going to do it slowly' bro Omega literally says he will destroy the Galaxy overtime not the universe but even if he did destroy the universe it's still an overtime feat making it a galaxy level feat. Meaning Kibito Kai fearing is a valid reason, because if we take in-verse reasoning, he could've went somewhere outside the Galaxy and that wouldn't of affected him.
In Super however, regardless of what Kibito Kai was going to do he was going to die alongside everyone else in the universe had Beerus and Goku clashed once more. He had nowhere to go is what I'm saying.
3:The Sugorkou Space is a dimension, it also has space and time within it, "To think that it would warp him into a different **dimension of space**" "Goku fell into Sugorkou Space, an area between **dimensions**" "That is an area between **time and space** where no one can help you" all these are verbatim as in the show.
Goku breaking out of it isn't a feat because Super Buu and Gotenks did the exact same thing in Z. GT Goku is only doing feats that people have already done in the past. He has the same dimensionality like everyone else did in Z.
Super Goku was going to destroy everything in the Universe 7 macrocosm, Heaven Hell,Earth, Demon Realm, Supreme Kai World. Literally everything, and it's stated that Universe 7 is an Infinite expanding universe. This puts GT Goku's feat to shame lol
4 and 5: SSJ4 has no multiplier, and everything the producer said and you said was pure headcanon with at least the author actually having some sort of proof. SSj4 multiplier in the perfect files was said to be as strong as SSJ Vegetto, the anime never changes the multiplier. This would mean at minimum it's a 20,000x multiplier(well I'm obviously wrong because I'm not Toriyama sorry, rip)
rather than that absurd multiplier of 1.6 billion which has nothing backing it up except you going "hahaha Goku multiplier stronger because he get strong in show" with no backing even if it was an estimate which is just your bias. GT Goku never surpassed his SSJ4, again your pure headcanon,no one acknowledges this at all. Just because Baby had 10000 Blitz Waves does not literally mean the multiplier is 10000X, it's still a 10X and was still giving SSJ4 Goku before he went FP trouble.
6:The same thing happened when Buu destroyed earth and they had to escape, Goku couldn't IT because he had no concentration having to literally escape a planet being blown up as well as not being able to save Piccolo,Gohan and the kids. It was only once Kibito Kai shown up they were able to escape as Kai Kai doesn't need to be concentrated to teleport
8:The instant you include movies is the instant the argument you went for is naught, just because we see characters from the movie does not instantly make them canon to GT and the Metal Cooler feat isn't impressive because both were using IT meaning both were still materializing to where they were suppose to be. Even then Goku from Cell Saga easily deals with Metal Cooler Goku anyways. They have no interaction with the movie characters, they were just there for Easter eggs that's just it.
9: Delusional, GT can't even reach Universal and you still think otherwise, Super Animes literally follows DBZ/ Kai anime while Super Manga follows Z Manga, even then this is just pure bias and nostalgia about a show that is shit and the only thing going for it is a kid turning into a furry red monkey.
God Goku already eclipses everything GT had already did while in his first arc 😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣🤣
You also forget there's a term called "unreliable narrator" who misleads readers, either deliberately or unwittingly. The narrator calling Frieza a universe buster was because Frieza was literally undefeatable, no one at that time during Z could defeat Frieza hence him being know ln as "Emperor of the Universe". If he was Universal, where is his feats showing he was Universal at that time. Same thing for Cell as he was considered "God of Destruction" why wasn't SSJ3 Goku able to destroy Beerus because he's stronger a GOD who was Cell. You forget that Super Goku (from the anime) follows Z anime, while Super Goku(from the manga) follows Z manga.
GT Goku does not get the movie feats🤦🤦, just because you saw Bojack or Cooler does not instantly mean they experienced it. It's like in Sonic 06 when everything gets reset. Just because you see Silver in the next game does not mean Sonic remembers helping him with Shadow defeat Solaris or them fighting eachother
@@darkgenics Bruh.. you call that a debunk. You really are clueless lol. lemme debunk your dEbUnK. tbh it would need two parts essay just to mention your AHH arguments.
First lemme show you the useless claims you made tbh. dude i am literally laughing at the mere idea that you think GT is Multi galaxy lol. what year are you living in? freaking 2010? lol. Frieza saga in DBZ already went to Universal+ scaling and i can easily prove that. let me know if you need proof fot that lol. GT goku being weaker (you said Multi galaxy) than Namek saga (universal+ in Anime) makes no freaking sense.
now your points that need to be debunked bruh.
> " Buuhan was never going to destroy the universe, you can say you don't understand the context but he was never going to destroy it directly"
Youre directly Wrong here lol. so lets say that was never destroying it directly. but we know Buuhan was going to shatter the barrier between dimensions that same barriers that were holding the alternate dimensions that can crush the Macrocosm 7. Like bruh Buuhan would have needed similar AP to even make a dent in the Barrier. So yeah it would scale Buuhan AP. youre wrong here.
> "Kid Buu is not stronger than Buuhan, this argument is so stupid you might as well say SSJ3 destroys Ultimate Gohan which is false"
Brother? have you even watched the Anime. HAHA. Read these dialouges from Goku, Supreme kai and vegeta btw.
"Yes. His Heart, which through absorption had allowed his power to even be reduced" (they literally talked about thi in Anime that super buu was weaker coz he wasnt pure unlike manga)
"You're on a whole different level from all the boos upto now"
"stronger than anyone i have fought before" (goku fought buuhan btw lol)
"This is purely evil, absolutely most powerful, Ultimate Majin boo"
WHAT NOW?? SHOW IS LYING TOO LOL. your points would be Valid if it was Manga bruh. In anime its a whole different story. and thats exactly Why GT got broken in first place.
>"Also Z never stated Uub was stronger than Kid Buu, they said Uub was as strong as Kid Buu, because Goku in EOZ was as strong as himself in SSJ3 during Buu Arc"
i mean it doesnt even matter tbh. we already know that End of Z goku was as strong as Uub which was as strong as Kid buu. and that was Kid Uub. youre telling me that after years of training Uub would be weaker than his own previous strength? wtf are you on about?
>"SSJG multiplier is stronger than hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto that made Goku Go from Galaxy to Universal(low-ball)"
Bro wtf? Vegito was already Multiversal in Buu saga. Do you even know that a macrocosm in Dragon ball is different than real life universe right. Like bruh a solar system in Dragon ball is already. our universe is having approx 1 septillion stars but in dragon ball a galaxy have more stars than that and before you talk non sense uneducated shet. lemme show you proof.
Read the scans from Daizenshu.
宇宙
The Universe
The endless, expansive space wrapped
around every celestial body that exists in the Living World. Along with the "Demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the Living World. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design. Within the universe, there are "nebulae" composed of innumerable stars, and there are "galaxies" composed of innumerable nebulae. There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy. Earth resides in the Solar System, a galactic nebula on the outskirts of the North Galaxy.
so stfu about Vegito being multi galaxy lol. thats in manga not Anime. bruh thats exactly what i mean. Anime has far higher scaling than Manga. DBZ from namek saga was already far above universal.
>"Like the Omega Feat, 'he wasn't going to do it slowly' bro Omega literally says he will destroy the Galaxy overtime not the universe but even if he did destroy the universe it's still an overtime feat making it a galaxy level feat"
are you really that dumb? this feat isnt even needed bihh. Baby vegeta was warping an infinite realm that was meta physical. bruh that is like one of the god tier feats in GT. Omega was far above Baby vegeta so he scales from that. And that BS you said "oh its a slow feat" lol no bruh. by that logic SSG never even destroyed anything in punches lol. You do realise that Omega is far stronger than baby vegeta and base GT goku right. so its an irrelvant argument to say that somehow omega would be weaker than baby vegeta.
> "In Super however, regardless of what Kibito Kai was going to do he was going to die alongside everyone else in the universe had Beerus and Goku clashed once more" thats not a even a good scaling lol. you the funny part is that this feat is easily surpassed by Base GT goku in baby vegeta Saga lol when. yet no talks about it lol.
>"The Sugorkou Space is a dimension, it also has space and time within it, "To think that it would warp him into a different *dimension of space**" "Goku fell into Sugorkou Space, an area between **dimensions**" "That is an area between **time and space* where no one can help you" all these are verbatim as in the show."
what a sh*ty ahh debunk lol. **dimension of space** ok.. it was a statement. that literally was debunked next second lol. **area between dimensions** doesnt mean anything tbh. that doesnt prove anything lol. area? how do you scale that area? we know it didnt have any time or space. all it said was that it was between dimensions lol. doesnt prove anything.
Also youre already debunked by guides already bruh. Read this btw
**There is no concept of "time" or "space" in this world, and it exists between dimensions, separate from any other area.**
**"Rooms" and "Sugoro spaces" have been confirmed.**
Now what? the official guide by the company itself is wrong? yeah sure lol HAHA .loved how you cherry picked the statements lol but didnt take the statement where its mentioned **
@@darkgenics Bruh.. you call that a debunk. You really are clueless lol. lemme debunk your dEbUnK. tbh it would need two parts essay just to mention your AHH arguments.
First lemme show you the useless claims you made tbh. dude i am literally laughing at the mere idea that you think GT is Multi galaxy lol. what year are you living in? freaking 2010? lol. Frieza saga in DBZ already went to Universal+ scaling and i can easily prove that. let me know if you need proof fot that lol. GT goku being weaker (you said Multi galaxy) than Namek saga (universal+ in Anime) makes no freaking sense.
now your points that need to be debunked bruh.
> " Buuhan was never going to destroy the universe, you can say you don't understand the context but he was never going to destroy it directly"
Youre directly Wrong here lol. so lets say that was never destroying it directly. but we know Buuhan was going to shatter the barrier between dimensions that same barriers that were holding the alternate dimensions that can crush the Macrocosm 7. Like bruh Buuhan would have needed similar AP to even make a dent in the Barrier. So yeah it would scale Buuhan AP. youre wrong here.
> "Kid Buu is not stronger than Buuhan, this argument is so stupid you might as well say SSJ3 destroys Ultimate Gohan which is false"
Brother? have you even watched the Anime. HAHA. Read these dialouges from Goku, Supreme kai and vegeta btw.
"Yes. His Heart, which through absorption had allowed his power to even be reduced" (they literally talked about thi in Anime that super buu was weaker coz he wasnt pure unlike manga)
"You're on a whole different level from all the boos upto now"
"stronger than anyone i have fought before" (goku fought buuhan btw lol)
"This is purely evil, absolutely most powerful, Ultimate Majin boo"
WHAT NOW?? SHOW IS LYING TOO LOL. your points would be Valid if it was Manga bruh. In anime its a whole different story. and thats exactly Why GT got broken in first place.
>"Also Z never stated Uub was stronger than Kid Buu, they said Uub was as strong as Kid Buu, because Goku in EOZ was as strong as himself in SSJ3 during Buu Arc"
i mean it doesnt even matter tbh. we already know that End of Z goku was as strong as Uub which was as strong as Kid buu. and that was Kid Uub. youre telling me that after years of training Uub would be weaker than his own previous strength? wtf are you on about?
>"SSJG multiplier is stronger than hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto that made Goku Go from Galaxy to Universal(low-ball)"
Bro wtf? Vegito was already Multiversal in Buu saga. Do you even know that a macrocosm in Dragon ball is different than real life universe right. Like bruh a solar system in Dragon ball is already. our universe is having approx 1 septillion stars but in dragon ball a galaxy have more stars than that and before you talk non sense uneducated shet. lemme show you proof.
Read the scans from Daizenshu.
宇宙
The Universe
The endless, expansive space wrapped
around every celestial body that exists in the Living World. Along with the "Demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the Living World. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design. Within the universe, there are "nebulae" composed of innumerable stars, and there are "galaxies" composed of innumerable nebulae. There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy. Earth resides in the Solar System, a galactic nebula on the outskirts of the North Galaxy.
so stfu about Vegito being multi galaxy lol. thats in manga not Anime. bruh thats exactly what i mean. Anime has far higher scaling than Manga. DBZ from namek saga was already far above universal.
>"Like the Omega Feat, 'he wasn't going to do it slowly' bro Omega literally says he will destroy the Galaxy overtime not the universe but even if he did destroy the universe it's still an overtime feat making it a galaxy level feat"
are you really that dumb? this feat isnt even needed bihh. Baby vegeta was warping an infinite realm that was meta physical. bruh that is like one of the god tier feats in GT. Omega was far above Baby vegeta so he scales from that. And that BS you said "oh its a slow feat" lol no bruh. by that logic SSG never even destroyed anything in punches lol. You do realise that Omega is far stronger than baby vegeta and base GT goku right. so its an irrelvant argument to say that somehow omega would be weaker than baby vegeta.
> "In Super however, regardless of what Kibito Kai was going to do he was going to die alongside everyone else in the universe had Beerus and Goku clashed once more" thats not a even a good scaling lol. you the funny part is that this feat is easily surpassed by Base GT goku in baby vegeta Saga lol when. yet no talks about it lol.
You need god ki to fight against gods of destruction or the angels in super. So just with that SSJ4 can't compete with SSG.
people like hit don't use god ki and hit scales over the same goku who fought beerus in battle of gods
What about jiren kefla granola gas gohan and frieza the list goes on
What kinda logic is this
You don't need god ki to compete tho
@@ekoyal_gemu4446ssjg still slams even at weakest in the BoG saga it was universal+ omega shenron was also universal at his best making ssj4 weaker than universal making ssjg much stronger
People forget that Goku had lost most of His power when He was turned into a kid to the point, He couldn't go Super Saiyan 3 until He regrew His tail, while I know that Super Saiyan God has shown more feats I argue that Super Saiyan 4 is closer in power then people think, it's not equal, but the power gap isn't a one shot as it all depends on the base power of the form user, in the Manga Goku Black in just SSJ2 was benching SSJB
Edit: Don't start a fucking war in this chat, I'm not in the mood for that, also SSJB is just a 50x Multiplier but also combines it with the Bullshit that is God Ki.
Oh?
Unfortunately you had a bad take on GT scaling massively, I’d suggest noting other power scalers take on GT on at least debunk it
Both are cool and if Super Sayian 4 is ever introduced in Dragon Ball Super it could be all the way from slightly weaker than SSG to stronger than Beast Gohan
I believe ss4 and ssb are equal
🧢
Agreed. Ssjg is a far better form, and was replaced by blue far too early on.
Ssgss swoops in just towering over both of them lol.
You are wrong I don't care Super Saiyan 4 is better than any transformation in super and I have seen calculations that put the multiplier at 7 septillion.
As someone who used to powerscale years ago , there is no point in just seeing numbers , enjoy the show.
@ManabuHori trust me I am a OG GT fan 😎. And I love it.
you are wrong I don't care Super Saiyan God is better than any transformation in GT and I have seen calculations that put the multiplier at (insert multiplier over 7 septillion with 0 proof as to where I got that multiplier)
Go Touch some grass
Bro god ki is stronger we’ll look at jiren he beat goku ssjblue and god plus he don’t have god ki u saying god ki make u stronger that’s cap
Ssg no diffs this fodder
SSG any day
Is it really that hard to say “Three” ?
super solos gt
Gt isnt canon
Daima trailer says otherwise