I was in the military in a small unit composed of 10 to 12 other sailors, in multiple high-stress and dangerous life-threatening situations. Over the course of my enlistment I served with 35 people as a result of normal rotation. If you asked everyone 11 years later who among us were the heroes and who were the cowards, who would push on and who were slackers, who knew what they were doing and who didn't, who were the leaders and who were the losers, who could remain calm in the face of the great chasm and who panicked, who were professional and who were clueless, who were the natural sailors and who just sucked at all things in general, you would get 36 different answers and all the stories and examples needed to back up those opinions.
For a company of dementia patients maybe. You may get different opinions on who were bad soldiers as they can get political, but no foggy memories can skew great soldiers / leaders. And 11 years is nothing
I had the honor to speak with Ed Shames several times about Ambrose and Ed is a man of the highest honor and told Ambrose he would not accept falsehoods in BOB. He was very frank with Ambrose about the false info and Ambrose then decided to ignore him. Ed said his honor was more important than "any damn book"
You see it in every organization -- there are those who are solely interested in the mission, part of which requires addressing issues where and when they occur. In the military, these are the guys who get it done. Then there are those who are interested in themselves. Finally, you've got the "go along to get along" types who follow others based on politics. Interesting to see that things haven't changed since WWII.
Why be upset with the actor who portrayed Shames. He's an actor (employee). He was hired to act and read from a script. It's not his fault if the movie makers got it all wrong.
I agree. There is a lot to unpack with this story alone. Matthew Settle for example only spoke to Speirs after the series was shown as Speirs did not want anything to do with Band of Brothers. This was the case for some other actors as well and if the vet didn't like he way he was portrayed he likely put some of the blame on the actor not knowing the ins and outs of making films. I don't know if they should have dragged the vets into it, you can see from Shames that it caused a lot of animosity and they didn't get the story right in any case. There was enough historians around (Mark Bando for example) to get the story close to factual and not drag anyone's name through the mud.
And he knew he was just a minor character, so he needed less contact with the real Shames, as his portrayal would not be seen very much on screen. The issue is, why was he a minor character, and why were the other platoons ignored, or treated as somewhere to be transferred to or from? In some cases, they were the villains as "Why is it always us" cropped up quite a few times in the TV show.
@@Loosehead Not necessarily. Sometimes bigger scenes or entire characters are taken out during the editing process in post production. Shames could have many scenes that were cut.
I’m the lead researcher for a series of books being written about Canadian Gunners in Afghanistan, called “With a Few Guns”. Vol 1, 2001-2006, was published last yr, Vol 2 covering 2007 to 2014 will be out next yr I’ve been involved with the project for over 5 yrs and I can certainly relate to some of the issues you’re bringing up here When the main source is the memories of those who served, you know it’s going to be next to impossible to put something out there that all will agree is how they saw it Shames certainly sounds like someone who had strong opinions on many things, I’d hazard a guess it became very difficult for Ambrose to resolve that with the viewpoints of others. I don’t doubt there was friction with a number of other vets in just trying to get material; old animosities and grudges probably came to the surface again. Ambrose himself, as is well known now, had serious flaws in his approach to telling history. But in the end it has to be acknowledged some good did come out of his work. Foremost is that it encouraged another generation to become interested in the incredible accomplishments of the “greatest generation”, eventually leading to the creation of the HBO series, generating even more interest. This of course has led to even greater examination of their experiences. But I think one has to be mindful that compromises will inevitably happen when retelling the complexities of so many personal viewpoints, especially when recounting traumatic experiences. I’m thankful for Ambrose work, flawed as it is, and yours
I never take biographies or personal accounts as 100% accurate as things can be remembered differently and people can have personal opinions and bias to certain individuals they serve with but nonetheless it gives insight on events that a simple written historical account cannot capture. Another thing to take away from this is although the soldiers of Easy were heroes they were also human and flawed in many ways.
Ed Shames was the real deal. His interviews are on youtube and definitely worth watching. He was well into his 90s and sharp as a tack. He came to Easy Company from 3/506 where he worked very closely with the battalion CO LTC Wolverton who was killed in his chute on D-Day. The 2/506 officers considered him an outsider and the fact he was Jewish didn't help. Many of the 3rd platoon soliders thought very highly of Lt Shames and he was even the best man at Forrest Guth's wedding. Ed went on to serve with the CIA and NSA after the war with great distinction. He also had an awesome Tidewater Virginia accent. Watch his interviews, he didn't pull any punches.
That old accent... it's dwindling here. Not too many people have it anymore. Even growing up in the Tidewater, I never picked it up. Little local details like that which make people interesting are disappearing all over the nation.
yeah he wasn't liked esp by many of his guys in 3rd plt, winters never trusted him , and later in life he was taking credit for what others had done in the unit.
Unless you’ve served under a Jewish officer you won’t understand how things actually are. I’m a retired Infantryman and served in two wars, I served 26 years, all Active Duty and the WORST Officer I’ve worked with was a jewish Company Commander who treated every single person as sub human beings, that’s the best way I can politely describe it. Thankfully that Officer was finally charged with abuse of power and given the choice to face a court martial or get out of the Army…..he promptly resigned his commission and moved back to his mothers house and lived with her for about 18 years according to NCO’s who tracked him. Sobel is a common jewish name and he has jewish facial features and aggressive behaviors towards non-jews so not sure why people don’t think he’s jewish. Many jews are heavily indoctrinated from birth to think that jews are a supreme race and that the goyim are there to serve them and the best of us deserve the blade. Often the good jews will abandon that dangerous way of thinking and become great men but sadly, many don’t. I just wish I had it all wrong but I finally locked in my view when a jewish man who was married to my aunt screwed me out of my inheritance and stole my grandfather’s M-1911 pistol he used when he was a pilot in WWII. It’s their duty to take from non-jews whenever the opportunity presents itself and to not do so is a sin according to their religion (Talmud). All their doctrines are easily available online so I advise disbelievers to research the truth to find out for themselves.
According to Bill Guarnere What's over looked. Is that while Ambrose made millions. The real men of Easy Company were not paid anything for their stories told to Ambrose. He collected and used their material. Never offering compensation for their efforts.
Hey, you need to know that Babe and Bill went to Europe on the Company's dime (HBO) and drank $15,000.00 worth of alcohol while they were there. And yes, HBO paid the bar tab. Babe played a civilian in the Dutch town after it was liberated. He is sitting at the table were one of Easy Co. is making out with some chick. Diabetes be damned! Those guys don't know what sleep is!
@nandi123 It would be like Someone changing the history of the war of the roses. I remember reading about that and watching series about it, And thinking that the truth is better than any book could have been about it.
@@toddsmith5715 Yes I read that years ago and being a big fan of this book and others he wrote I thought it was utter bollocks. Now some years later I am finding some of these revelations, while trying to keep an open mind, quite disturbing.
If there’s one thing I’ve learnt in life it’s that multiple realities can be true at the same time. At the end of the day the rest of us were not around, so we can’t say for fact whose story is the most accurate. Let everyone have their say and peace, it’s still a good story.
No, they can be misremembered by first person witness/participants. but there is always ONLY one truth. Whether the exact truth can be ascertained and assembled is a different story?
Based on comments from the men,Sobel was considered to be a good trainer and they gave him credit for preparing them for war. But,they did not consider him to be a good leader in the field and were concerned he would get them killed.
More then likely Winters had a personal beef with Sobel, for one reason or another and he managed to get all the other guys in the company to hate Sobel. It's very easy to do if you have one likeable person that the guys looks up to, he can easily manipulate the rest of the guys to think like he thinks. Most guys that survived the war from E company credited their survival to Sobel. Never heard anyone give credit to Winters or Nixon for surviving the war. Like Ed Shames stated, most of his guys survived the war. Most of Winters and Nixons guys Died or was wounded, and they got evacuated when the going got though. Meanwhile Ed Shames held his ground and kept fighting with minimal losses. No wonder Winters hated him.
@@jone8626 Nixon was not well liked,but most of the guys liked and respected Winters. I just got back from a 2 week Band of Brothers tour of Europe. George Luz,Jr was our tour guide.
@@jone8626 Amazing how many commenters have so enthusiastically swallowed Shames' unsubstantiated account as if it were the absolute truth that subverts everything that came before. It's like they had a pent up desire for years to crap on Winters and this finally gave them license. Winters "easily" brainwashed over 100 E Company soldiers to hate Sobel? He was so successful that he got the Easy NCOs to frame Sobel for field incompetence AND turn in their stripes? That's an amazing level of mind control over dozens of men. Winters was in command of the company and later the battalion. Shames lead a platoon. You can't compare their loses. And Nixon wasn't even an combat leader so he had no men to lose.
@@dlxmarksNot all E company soldiers hated Sobel. Many others who were not interviewed by Ambrose dispute what was said about Sobel. These vets described Sobel as "tough but fair" in other books about E company.
@@jone8626 I don't think Winters ever hated anyone. He may not have liked a man, but it would have been out of character for him to let you know it. My experience in listening to him was that he tried to be very balanced. He would do anything to correct an injustice, or record. Please also consider the job that Easy had to do, which was to be the first in and to take on the most dangerous missions. They would, under those circumstances, take more casualties.
I did not come away from B.O.B. with the notion that Nixon was some type of hero. On the contrary. I thought of him as a slacker. Unkempt, unmotivated, doing just enough to get by. I do not know where this hero stuff came from. As far as Shames throwing dirt at Winters, He (Shames) comes off to me as if he is a little jealous that he was not recognized like he would have wished. And as for Winters to be sucking up to Ambrose, I take that as Winters feeling absolutely gleeful that someone, anyone, was going to tell a story, their story, that had never been told before. As far as the matters that did or did not transpire the way some say they did, you have to understand that Hollyweird is going to take artistic license in a project to move it along and make it more interesting to the very people they seek to relieve of their money. When I went to Central America (3/5th ABN), my first C.O. was EXACTLY like Sobel's portrayal in B.O.B. He would scream, take on long marches in horrendous weather, never gave credit or accolades to anyone, criticized everything and everyone. He was universally hated by the entire Battalion. When he left, our new C.O. came in and let us show him what we could do without all the drama. We rose to the occasion, became Honor Company for the rest of my time in country and never, not once did we relinquish it. Napier sucked as far as personality went, but he trained the crap out of us. He just did not know how to lead.
Reminds me of the way Henry Hook was portrayed in ZULU, a drunkard and malingerer. In reality he was a lay preacher and teetotaler. Like someone here said , "don't let the truth get in the way of a good story." You should see my resume.
On page 145 of the book titled, "Shifty's War" Darrel "Shifty" Powers tells of a patrol that 2nd and 3rd platoon were on while at Bastogne. He recalls, "whoever was calling the shots decided to hike back through an open field as a shortcut hoping to make it back to the foxholes before dark, I guess." He further mentions, "Those Krauts could track our positions all across the field and zero in their artillery." A little while later they got clobbered by the artillery strike that wounded Toye and Guarnere. It makes me wonder who led the platoons across the field. LT Compton was the PL for 2nd and LT Shames was the PL for 3rd.
Ambrose has been long known as a hack. I was actually late to it, 1st made aware while reading his account of the C-47 drop pilot's behavior. Matched up to nothing I was aware of after a lifetime of more than casual interest. Looking into it, I found there was a whole world of contested Ambrose scholarship. I had, and have, no dog is this hunt, but Ambrose was a showbiz wannabe who abused history (and the people who made it) to get there. Disgusting, really.
He definitely grew up Jewish, and was Jewish ethnically and culturally. His son said that he went to Catholic church with them on Sundays, so it's possible he converted at some point.
I'd suggest reading the book on Shames written by Ian Gardner, called "Airborne: The Combat Story of Ed Shames of Easy Company". Shames writes the forward and the story is written with Shames as the central figure. There are two sides to every story and the "truth" is somewhere in the middle. In my opinion the truth shades towards Winters and away from Shames.
Finding out Ambrose changing the story for money makes not want to watch it anymore. Thats why i love Webster's book. He tells us he's a goldbrick. It seems like the most honest retelling of his life in WW2.
I feel the truth is somewhere in the middle. While I acknowledge Ambrose has been found guilty of plagiarism and certainly took shortcuts. I also feel that there is an element of sour grapes with shame’s depiction of winters. From what I have read, Winters was acknowledged as a superior leader of men long before the band of Brothers book came out. if Sobel was as good as Shames contends, then why did the mutiny of competent NCOs take place if they weren’t concerned for their own safety? Don Malarkey’s book paints Winters as an exceptional leader too, and I don’t think Ambrose had any input on that. Certainly characters like Blythe, Dike and Cobb were badly maligned, so it is reasonable to expect certain characters to have been over glamorized. this seems to be sufficient evidence, however, that Winters was indeed remarkable leader. Again, this is just my personal opinion and I don’t mean it to be definitive .
You are correct. Winters studied his a** off to learn all he could re: military tactics and was very fair to the guys. He was remarkable and so very lucky. Ambrose needed to write about a unit and Winters had kept exhaustive records of Easy. So that made Ambrose's that much easier. And he had up-to-date contact information on Easy.
This is how I feel about it. Shames comes across as quite arrogant. Then you have soldiers like Floyd Talbert writing to Winters, "Dick, you are loved and will never be forgotten by any soldier who ever served under you. You are the best friend I ever had…you were my ideal, and motor in combat…you are to me the greatest soldier I could ever hope to meet."
@@keifergaudry3128Excellent point! and I feel that Shames was exhibiting some jealousy towards the “celebrity” of Winters and the represented heroes depicted in the series.
Your amazing videos have given me reason to question everything I thought I knew about the famous Easy Company of BoB. And that’s also after reading all the individual autobiographies written by E Co. members I am aware of. (And there are quite a few). I have reason to question the ethics of Dr. Ambrose and his dedication to telling the truth, whether it makes for the stuff of a good book or multi-million dollar miniseries. And I’m not alone there. Valid criticisms and questions about the authenticity and originality of Dr. Ambrose’s work were raised when he was still living. It’s impossible to know how or what men engaged in the greatest war in history thought about other soldiers, the qualities of leadership or even possible prejudices since all these veterans (with very few exceptions) have left us now. Major Winters is portrayed as Easy Company’s strongest and most able leader. Is such credit now in question? So many people comment that Capt. Sobel was a real SOB. An incompetent martinet. Yet members of E Co. have also been quoted as stating something similar to, “Captain Sobel made Easy Company.” What is an amateur historian to believe? Should we only look at the surviving, official records for the regiment, stored in the National Archives or DoD? After Action Reports (which I’ve read); that offer little to no insight on the relationships between the men? I’ve never understood why Dr. Ambrose singled out E. Co. to begin with. I have no doubt that you would have discovered amazing tales of courage under fire from any platoon or company in the entire 101st or 82nd Airborne. You could probably find stories of heroism, determination, courage, even dereliction in researching just about any allied military unit, because it involves the human condition. What remains indisputably true is that these men did serve in the war, many with distinction, many who made the ultimate sacrifice, and they deserve credit for that. I’m beginning to think that things get muddled and ruined when Hollywood comes calling. Even when names as noteworthy as T.H. and S.S. are involved. Thank you for the video.
yeah so i sent this video to the Keeper of the History of Easy co and he couldn't get past 5 min of this. He knew Shames and all of the guys in E co and their families. Shames was disliked by his own 3rd plt and the reason his platoon suffered less casualties than the others during the battle of the bulge. It’s because winters didn’t trust him, that’s why first and second always got the lion shares of the assignments. Winters trusted the men in 3rd plt BUT not Shames. now the guys in the company didn't publicly talk about him and kept the drama with in the unit. but their letters and documents do talk crap about him. Shames also took credit for what others had done and his book is BS for the most part (i know 1 of the guys who helped on it) he wouldn't attend the reunions and even when he attended the big WW2 Weekend airshow in Reading,PA he almost got knocked out by another E co trooper who was only stopped by the CO of E/506th Reenacted who had to grab him mid swing.
Winters and a couple other members of E Company were focused on because they kept the best first hand accounts from WW2 from the day it began to the time BoB was released. I wouldn’t call Winters a “suck up” just because he was the focal point of the series. He was a plethora of information and not of which he gave up voluntarily like some may think. They worked on him for a long time to share the info he had stashed in his collection. From many accounts in numerous books, Shames was not an easy NCO to deal with so if there’s a few that don’t like him, oh well. It’s easy to take shots at people after they pass and can’t defend themselves.
@@gusloader123 Shames was promoted to operations sergeant in England during the lead up to Overlord. He was promoted to second lieutenant after returning to England before the jump into Holland.
War & Truth - I was honored to spend some time with Ed Shames. Great man of integrity. I have some interviews of him speaking on this topic if you are interested in seeing them.
I read a book called "tonight we die as men" that talked about Shames and others. It's been a while so I can't really recall but I think he was mentioned quite a lot.
I've been studying WW2 Airborne history my entire life. Been with many of these men at reunions and overseas tours. I've also been friends with many over the years. I read the book shortly after it came out, and while it was interesting, it seemed a bit embellished. Later, I saw a few interviews with Ambrose, confirming my thoughts. Ed Shames did call me once, and we did have a lengthy conversation. My impression of him was that he was a tough and determined officer.
Shames interviews are very enlightening. Discriminating against people was widely prevalent in the times of that era. Anti-Semitic racism is not a factor anyone can dismiss as a true factor in the army. History affords us a perspective that the men of those days were yet to discover. The end of the war when camps were liberated, the effects of anti-Semitic beliefs were shown to the light of day. I think Shames’ account is not the copy that Ambrose was looking for, factual or otherwise, the story needed a protagonist and a hero. I think that the author chose the most compelling facts to fit the story arc. I think that Shames’ account has more accuracy than is comfortable for those who like the B. O. B. franchise, of which I am one.
I have never read that B-0-B book but have read at least 2 others by Ambrose. I have watched the B-0-B series via DVD's from the local library about twice. I found it was focused on Sobel, Winters, boozer Nixon, the mouthy Italian guy from Philadelphia, and a couple of other men such as Lt. Spiers, and the Company First Sergeant, and the big guy from Arkansas, and Malarkey, Blythe, and Gieblott (spelling?), the taxi driver that could speak some German. A Rifle Company has about a Hundred, maybe 120 men, TOE. Surely there should have been more mention of Lt. Shames, and others. This video and statements by Lt. Shames are interesting, and I think Ambrose was probably not always factual. Wikipedia has a long article on Officer Sobel. According to that, Sobel was a real looser. He considered everyone his enemy. He tried to end his own life,,,, but did it wrong and instead he blinded himself. Nobody attended his funeral. I was in the USMC infantry and except for the jumping out of airplanes, the stuff shown at CampTocoa in the video series was very similar to our training at I.T.S., Camp Pendleton. The idiotic Captain Sobel telling Infantry trainees that they cannot drink water was lunacy. We carried two full canteens, both at I.T.S. and in the "Fleet". We were reminded to drink water frequently. IF 1st Lt. Sobel told soldiers they could NOT drink water, or to pour it out on the ground, then he would have been busted down to a Private. The Camp Medical Doctor would have called the M.P.'s and have Sobel (or any other idjit) arrested and reported to the Camp Commander. The number one killer of Soldiers and Marines in South Vietnam was not bullets but Heat Stroke and Heat Exhaustion. Water is mandatory, or you will die.
The purpose of not allowing them to drink water during marches had to do with water discipline. If you read accounts of the men in Normandy, it was pretty common to run out of drinking water. If they had drunk their water on the flight to Normandy, things would not have gone well. And, since there was no account of people dropping from heat stroke or heat exhaustion, they must have planned those marches pretty well.
Thanks for your work in unpicking this, it’s most informative. In this instance I try not to judge the people involved. I’m not religious, but I think the words, “let he who is without sin, cast the first stone” are appropriate. They’re all just men, who signed up to stand in front of bullets and we shouldn’t forget that, for all of their foibles. I think the way you’re handling this subject with great sensitivity and respect is beyond reproach. Well done to you.👍🏼
Not in anyone's defense, but after being out of the Army for over 30 years, I'm still learning things about events and soldiers I knew very well (or, at least I THOUGHT I knew well). In the case of Mr. Ambrose & his book, you just have to add in the opinion of someone who's only interested in a portion of the stories from a single perspective and "Viola!", you get a skewed view of a perspective presented by a 3rd party reporting from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-hand sources. Thank you for covering the tales that deserve to be added to History.
The more I find out about Ambrose the less I think about him as a historian. It appears that fact didn't seem to matter to him very much. In regard to Winters I think that he got way too close to Ambrose and didn't put as much emphasis on accuracy as he should have. I don't believe that Winters was an anti Semire however. I just don't think his and Shames leadership style meshed very well. Winters wasn't a yeller and I think Shames style rubbed him the wrong way. Sobel's style meshed much better with Shames and that is why he liked him. Sobel by most accounts was a very poor field commander and that alone is why the Sgts. mutinied. They felt he would get them all killed. Many in later years said Sobel was good at training but piss poor at leadership in the field. I find Ambrose's playing fast and loose with mens reputatios inexcusable, like Shifty Powers for example. I after much reflection don't think very highly of Ambrose as a historian. He was a novelist, and as a lover of history this is inexcusable.
@@peterfennell6994 it was proven that he lifted significant portions of his Lewis and Clark story from previous books. I agree he was an excellent storyteller and that book was riveting. However, plagiarism is still plagiarism. Ask Joe Biden about plagiarism!
I believe Ed Shames! as a veteran - a sergeant in a combat unit i preferred that my soldiers will hate me (due to harsh drills. training and discipline) but be able to kill the enemy and survive a combat, than they will love me but be unprepared, unhardened, and ineffective and thus will fall like flies in combat!
How would Shames know anything about Sobal and Easy Company? He wasn't in easy Company unitl Operation Market Garden when he got his battle field promotion to Lt.. He would not have any first had knowaldge of the events of East Company leading up to that point.
Thank you for another great video. It's hard to tell from the series, But it would be interesting to know which soldiers were in which platoon and how often they switched platoons. Did they just focus on one platoon? I am.guessing not, if Shifty Powers was in Shames platoon.
Thank you. I can kind of track the NCO's (Ill do a video on it) but the enlisted men are very difficult to follow as a lot were killed and replacements came in who were killed and others were transferred because they didn't get along with their platoon leaders. It was a bit of a mess.
@War_And_Truth I can imagine. I originally thought that maybe this click was in the same platoon, but It seems like they switched platoons like you said. If Shames was rhe platoon leader the whole time, it is crazy they didn't mention him more. I have read Ambrose's book and Webster's, and it still can get confusing, bc they switch up so much. I am sure you will do an episode on it at some point, but it may be cool to get the viewpoint of the soldiers who did not make it into the series, and how they felt. I am currently watching it again, With someone who has never watched it. I am letting them watch it first, and then I will tell her about what is real and what isn't. She is very much into it, and now is hooked. I feel like telling them from the beginning that many things are not real would take away from the pleasure you get from the first watch.
I find it interesting that the miniseries doesn’t portray guys like Paul Rogers or Earl McClung, but they did have them in the interviews for the documentary. Could it be possible that the guys themselves asked not to be portrayed in it?
@@edm240b9 I could have sworn I saw McClung portrayed in the Webster episode of the raid to get prisoners. They at least said his name, and I think he was portrayed, but just barely. A very background character
@@GR-bn3xj now that you say it, yeah, I remember the scene where Sgt. Martin calls out McClung for the patrol. That said, I don’t remember him having a bigger role in any of the other episodes.
Ambrose was 70% historian and 30% novelist. You can see this in his other works on the 7th Cavalry and the 455th Bomb Group (Heavy). The books are very good but the accuracy has holes when you do some deeper historical research. Also, the Army works because of a lot of unrecognised, unpopular people doing jobs that other more recognised people weasel out of doing. I am glad to see these facts are being aired. Thank you for your videos. Well done.
So people need to stop and think about that fact that Lt Shames did not join Easy company until after D-day. Being in I company 3rd Battalion during training, he would of had little to no interaction with Easy Company and Captain Sobel at Taccoa, and being that 3rd Battalion was in Ramsbury not Aldbourne prior to D-day, he again would have of have very little interaction if any with Easy Company and Captain Sobel. How can he make any authoritative critique of Captain Sobel's field abilities 60 years on? I'm sure he was a very capable NCO/Officer and that he may have been shunned by Ambrose, but again, he was never really in a position to have formed any real knowledge of Captain Sobel's field skills . I've listened to his interviews, I've read a great deal on both the 2nd and 3rd battalions and simply believe 60+ years on he was simply embellishing his own memories of Easy Company. But that's just my humble opinion.
I’ll take a stab at this based on my experience with that generation/ combined with Military culture prior to the UCMJ. Shames sounds like what many will call a voice of reason. Meaning that most officer communities (from that era) wanted someone who is unfiltered. Someone who isn’t afraid to speak up when needed. Again always a pleasure to watch your work. Thank you for guarding truth. 👊🏻
@@War_And_Truth no my brother thank you. It’s refreshing to see someone keeping it real. I hate phony stuff that lines the pockets of people who don’t care about anything outside their bank account.
I find it interesting that most of the major figures profiled in Band of Brothers wrote memoirs to correct oversights or errors in the original book. If memory serves, I believe Winters and Compton (and others) blamed factual errors on Ambrose's haste and his overreliance on Guarnere's interviews. Memory can be a fickle thing, and, when most of the men had a good, maybe fair assessment of Winters, I think the more harsh criticisms of Shames can be rooted in that he may not have been a joiner. As far as the casualty rates in platoons, even Winters noted that he had an almost formulaic approach to combat, which meant that 1st Platoon became the main assault component, 2nd was the maneuver element, and 3rd held as the reserve. He believed the casualty rates were reflected in his own failure to overcome that formula.
W&T, I think we have to trust you, that you have all this additional information. In the end, Ambrose and the BOB, Dick Winters is the prevailing story and elevated the 506th from obscurity to the forefront of history. IF Ambrose got it 80% right then he was the first to do so and bring the story to a book and the Miniseries ? Ambrose needs congratulations. Dick Winters also. The others like Ed Shames' stories brought out like you are doing ! BUT = THINK ! Without Ambrose , there was no story and you would not be posting now. Your work is brilliant and I am subscribed.
History is best told by those that witnessed it. Ambrose did not witness anything, and relied upon stories, of which some might be hearsay or muddled over time.
That's why I prefer David Webster's book which was based on his wartime journals. Still just one man's take on the situation but as close to the events as possible.
Interpersonal dynamics just like most families, coworkers, fraternal organizations, labor unions, sports teams, chess clubs, the Hells Angels and Carmalite nuns. Basically everyone who interacts in group endeavors.
Holy shake!!,,,this series of videos never gets boring and is really interesting to get deeper in the lives of this remarcable generation of warriors ,,,,please tell me that you do your best to base your videos on facts ...tell me!!!
I only source from the veterans and combat reports/506th scrapbooks etc. I don't take from other commentators unless I can cross reference the information.
Sgt rod sthrol died in 2019 as you said he’s still alive today have you just made this video or was it made before 2019 because as far as I’m aware no one is alive today from easy company good video thanks
Shames interview which was the source was taken in 2014. Here is the original. I don't change the narrative if it comes direct from the vet. ua-cam.com/video/hatgdbWDiP8/v-deo.html
Before "Band of Brothers" there was "Parachute Infantry" by David Kenyon Webster that paints an entirely different picture of the E Company 508th Infantry. Read both to get a balanced view.
I read Parachute Infantry. Webster really didn't like some officers. But his seemed to be an honest look at his own military career. Webster wrote this right after the War but couldn't find a publisher at that time. He tragically died in a boating accident many years before the Ambrose book came out.
@@ToddLucky-z1b Webster was in college for journalism when the war broke out. Its partly why he refused any rank. He wanted to experience the war as a private and then write about it. His stark, factual account of war as he saw it did not comport with the euphoria of victory prevalent in the immediate post-war period.
Shames strikes me (as a former RSM) the kind of Officer I’d like to have in my Regiment. No nonsense and competent. Not out to make friends but to have the mission completed successfully and at as little cost as possible.
You still don't know about Shames. I met him personally on two occasions, and both times, he behaved like an egotistical jerk. He has passed away now, but he used his final years to sling mud at everyone else who took part in Ambrose's research for the book. Mind you, I wasn't in Easy Co, and Shames must have some good qualities when he was a soldier, but after meeting him and talking to him, I can see why he was not well liked in the company.
If 4 or more of those band of brothers veterans had stated about Sobel, it means that it's true, even about E Shames, he even tainted Ambrose and Winters.
Shames' book was awesome - he was truly a badass. He did missions behind enemy lines was involved in a lot of fighting in Normandy all before he joined Easy. The series was unjust to Shames.
I read the book and watched the series, and couldn’t understand why they thought so poorly of Sobel. He made Easy the toughest - not Winters. It was Sobels job to prepare the men for conditions harder than they had ever experienced before - he did an excellent job, even if it meant that they hated him. No one can really prepare you for war, but Sobel did his best. Everything they didn’t like about him was a lesson for them in perseverance and stamina. From cancelling leave passes, and making them run extra miles after a man drank from his canteen. These were all lessons they had to learn and were directly applicable to conditions that could apply once they were in theatre. Winters on the other hand seemed to be portrayed as everyone’s friend and counsellor - but that was not really his job. He seemed too considerate and careful - whereas the men needed to be pushed passed the level they thought they were capable of. He did not do this. Did he even discipline anyone, ever - apart from Dike.
@@allanrickman7482 Sorry - to understand what? That the series was a little biased. That the makers relied too much on Winters memoirs, and didn’t fact check themselves or confirm details with more than 1 Easy company source. I have served, but not in combat luckily, 20 odd years ago. And nearly every military organisation around the world used pretty much the same model or training at the time - break you down, in order to build you up. Some use a drill seargant as the means to dish out punishment and focus the hate, but in Easys case it was Sobel. Not really much to understand. Yes, military training probably has changed over the years. But I am fairly certain it was still basically the same in the 1940s American.
Winters men all said he led from the front, as you know Winters has the DSC for the Manor attack and is taught in West Point to this day,not bad for an "OK Leader "Shames was one jealous man
I do appreciate much of the new information that you have included in this review of the Band of Brothers mini series. However, I do have some concerns about the general treatment given to the subject. I don't feel that starting a critical review of a subject with preconceived conclusions and then presenting only negative views from supposedly overlooked individuals is a fair approach to a subject (particularly if the subjects of those views are deceased). By the way all historical treatments, be it book or movie, must be selective of materials included. Otherwise the general theme of the presentation is lost or the book becomes another "War and Peace". Incidentally, part of the reason that Samuel Elliot Morison gave such negative treatment to Frank Jack Fletcher was because the admiral wouldn't agree to be interviewed by him.
This information is already all out there. I dont accuse anyone of anything unless it is a known fact. I just present the stories from all sides good bad or indifferent. I appreciate the feedback but ill let the majority speak for my content.
My biggest surprise is that Liebgott wasn't a Jew but a Catholic. As for being denied a Medal because Shames is Jewish, my uncle Henry was denied a Soldiers Medal after pulling two wounded men out of a minefield by a rabidly Anti-Semitic Captain! Sobel may not have had the proper "stuff" to be a good small unit Combat Commander like Winters undoubtably was. However he was not dismissed by Sync at a time when many were demoted and he seems to have done well on D-Day. My dad's Company in the 75 ID had one of the officers killed. My dad saw him shot through the head. All of the other Company Offices ran away. How'd he know? They were nowhere to be found in the thick of the fighting. ALL of them showed up back at camp later. None were relieved!
I figured out years ago that movies that are "nonfiction" never tell it as it happened--never!. And the same goes for nonfiction books. Story telling is an art more than anything. Same for movies. And the bottom line is what matters for those who create books or movies. That's not cynical to make such a statement. It's the way it is. Besides, even the best story telling and the best researching methods will still never be complete nor 100% accurate. It's impossible. I recall reading BOB back in 1995 or so after my dad gave me the book for my birthday. I enjoyed it, but there was a part that bothered me about it. That is when Ambrose himself was making a personal statement about Sobel, describing how Sobel, "...could not even get his own suicide right". Recall that Sobel shot himself, but managed survive for some time afterwards before he died. I thought that for the writer, who should always be unbiased and impartial observer and recorder of events, made it known to the reader his personal feelings about Sobel. It was unprofessional to do that. And let's not forget the plagiarism scandal that came after his book The Wild Blue as published. That too, was a good read, but it tarnished Ambrose's reputation even more for me. The upshot is, human beings are fickle, flawed critters no matter who they are.
It sounds like Shames had kind of a chip on his shoulder and had a tendency to carry grudges. He was probably a capable officer even if he wasn't particularly personable. It seems he took his role as a combat leader seriously, and didn't particularly care whether his troops liked him personally. As he himself said, he'd rather be respected than liked. He didn't seem particularly impressed by Steven Ambrose. Ambrose's well documented ethical lapses as a historian include being guilty of extensive plagiarism. His willingness to sacrifice allegiance to facts over "a good story" showed he was more interested in being a famous best-selling author than serious academic historian.
On the other side of the coin, we'd of never known about Ed Shames, Dick Winters, Don Malarkey etc. if Ambrose hadn't put out that book. We should be used to inaccuracies by now with decades of movies based on real life events or people that get Hollywoodized. Because of that one book, we've had so many others put out including one that Shames endorsed.
Shames sounds very bitter. His comments regarding Winters were disgusting. I have never heard one member of Easy Company talk about Winters being an anti-Semite.I have studied a great deal about Shames andbeingJewish I feel helooked for anti-Semitism real or imagined. I agree with his assessment of Ambrose.
I have read a number of memoirs by many of the Easy Company soldiers, and I think anyone who is open minded will be able to see that there was good and bad opinions about most of those guys based on different memories and opinions, but that there is still a general consensus about the officers and enlisted men that does come out in their books as well as Ambrose's book. Some things obviously were written with the thought that some of those men or their relatives might object to the stories in the book or in the series, so they soft pedaled some of it. But the consensus of all who have written or responded to the book and series is pretty accurate. It is easy to criticize people when they are no longer alive to respond to criticism.
Cliques in the military are a real thing. If you aren't a member of the club, you aren't going anywhere. I am glad to have found this channel because the series felt so wrong to me for being an "historical docudrama", especially when I discovered years ago that the story about Blythe was so wrong, even on the basic stuff. This is coming from 12 years of service- 9 AD, 3 NG. And didn't Ambrose get into hot water for plagiarizing or something like that?
20 year Air Force veteran here. You are absolutely correct about cliques in the officer corps. If you aren't one of "the boys" you aren't going very far. And you are absolutely correct about Ambrose. He has a very bad reputation amongst historians. He used his children and students to do research and turned-out books like they were popcorn. When accused of a number of instances of plagiarism, he shrugged them off as honest mistakes and said he would correct his books. He never did. And Nixon should have been disciplined. You can't have an officer totally contemptuous of the rules. I don't know the dynamics of Sink and Nixon but it appears that Sink allowed him to skate. Why? I don't know.
Whether it's a victorious nation in war, or of a popularity contest at the personal level; history is written by the victors. You are doing good work here. Keep it up.
Where oral history and recollection are concerned it's virtually impossible to nail down an accurate account of events. It's therefore unwise to hold strong opinions one way or the other unless there's strong supporting evidence in another form. Diaries written immediately after the event, for example, are likely to give a more accurate account; though even this kind of source can be fallible.
Shames made a few points. I know if I ever write a book about Nam, I will refer to it as fiction based on fact for several reasons. My personal experience with people is just that, mine. Your experience with that same person might be completely different. Everyone's perception of time changes over their lifespan. Even the same occurrence can be reported differently by people who were there. And your recollection can be compromised by emotion (fear), exhaustion, illnesses (high fevers), and the lack of more knowledge of that very situation. And most of these guys knew each other for more than two years and longer, and still their recollections varied! I will "pick" on one thing: Winters was NEVER an anti-Semite. He always expressed sympathy to Jews and Israel. If you are in a position of leadership and you must discipline a person of a different race or religion, how does that person know that it is not because of those reasons? You look to see how he treats others. Are they treated the same as you when they screw up? If so, then you have no beef. Excellent video. You have done some excellent work here. (I love your scholarship!)
But you trust this youtuber? Don't get me wrong, he does a great job, but yr opionions change that drastically over watching these vids? You absolutely discredit ambrose? I mean this gentleman hasn't exactly provided his sources either. But you trust this?
@@K37-h1z Considering that there's been more in previous vids, ya the weight of evidence is that way. What would be this UA-camrs motivation to do it though?
He’s stating quotes straight out of an interview with Ed shames, there is no falsification going on here about what’s being said. Hes actually doing a damn good job.
@@K37-h1z its not just this Ytuber SA has been called by several historians for fabrications in his book and the BOB series. Blythe and Sobel. Blythe lived FFS and fought in Korea! That is a stupendous screw up. Sobel got either a Silver or Bronze star so not a coward. same with Dike. Yeah I enjoyed the series but real life is sobering. Should have called it BOB what may or may not have happened in Europe. Disappointing..
I’m going to defend Ambrose. First of all, any author is going to gravitate toward officers or higher ranking people whenever there’s a dispute in an account. The human bias here is that they would have the “bigger picture.” Second, Ambrose is quite open about the fact that in his interviews, he often came across contradictory accounts of what happened. He did the best he could to try and determine what was actually true and even admits he may have gotten things wrong. I’m not sure why he’s getting all of these.he’s interviewing people decades after the events happened. He had a tough job and I have no reason to think he did not do the best he could. Regarding the TV series, once the TV/movie people buy the rights, you lose significant control. There are many books that have been turned into movies, true story, type books, where key details, get changed, omitted, etc., for the purposes of entertainment.
Who s right ,who's wrong.? To me ,it's not the point -the good thing is being able hear from other perspectives According to Ambrose /Winters -Shames" thinks he had yell all the time" , period , not exactly V complementary or informative .. So we'll done for this splendid research &please keep it coming 😊
It's like this - Ambrose was an excellent _"Popular"_ Historian. He knew how to pluck the emotion strings - and he did. That is what he was there to do - and he was very successful at it. The thing with a lot of Histories - is that they are dry and factual - not entertaining. One of the things about human beings - is that they relate to other human being's emotions. Thus the popularity of Reality TV and some of these shows that are nothing but people back stabbing each other and lying. That kind of stuff makes things entertaining. If you look at some popular movies - such as _Money Ball_ and _Sully_ - they outright lie. In the formula - and this is what Ambrose was doing - you have to have bad guys. In _Money Ball_ they pick the manager to be a bad guy. In reality he was on board with what Bean was doing - and really resented his portrayal in the movie. In _Sully_ the real Sullenberger - was incensed at the portrayal of the NTSB. The movie makers had to have some bad guys and the Geese - were all dead - so they picked the NTSB and made out like they were trying to Hang Sullenberger. Nothing could have been further from the truth. The NTSB - *_LOVED_* him. He had saved THEM from having to look at a hangar full of dead bodies - as they individually may well have had to do in the past. There had been an Aircraft Accident - so - there had to be an investigation to sum up what happened. The NTSB was NEVER out to get Sullenberger. *_THEY LOVED THAT GUY_* . Further - lets compare how well the two HBO Series - _Band of Brothers_ and _The Pacific_ did. _Band of Brothers_ did much better than _The Pacific_ with viewers. For this reason HBO didn't want to do _Masters of the Air_ and Apple did it. _Band of Brothers_ was based on the book written by Ambrose - to be popular. It had Bad Guys. It had The Good Guys, triumph over the Bad Guys. _The Pacific_ was based on books written by Robert Leckie and Eugene Sledge. These were Combat Veterans writing truthfully about their experiences. They were accurate. For the most part - The Bad Guys - were the Japanese - but the Americans are not portrayed as great heroes - but - as men struggling to do their jobs and survive in miserable, dangerous conditions. The Audience found the Series based on the Popular Writer Ambrose's books more enjoyable. It appealed to their emotions more. _The Pacific_ was painful. So - they watched _Band of Brothers_ and not so much _The Pacific_ (which BTW is the better of the two). The thing is - Ambrose knew what he was doing. He was writing _"Popular"_ History - not Scholarly History. Here's another one - _Tora! Tora! Tora!_ was an utterly fantastic movie but - it didn't do well with audiences. Face it. Most people are schmucks who just want to watch something that makes them feel - not something that makes them think. [*shrug*] .
I want what I read to be accurate more than anything else ! When you start pitting personalities against each other, or, enter inaccurate material, you destroy the integrity of what you are trying to do.
When I hear about Sobel, I am reminded of when a new sheriff was voted in when I was working at the sheriff's department. The new sheriff was not like the old sheriff who was very easy going and didn't supervise us deputies, jailers and dispatchers much. The new sheriff had retired from a large city police department and would not allow the deputies to rough prisoners up, he would fire jailers that were having relations with female inmates, and fire people that failed the drug test. The new sheriff worked hard, making several drug busts and made many improvements to the department. But, like Capt. Sobel, the personnel did not like the new sheriff and all campaigned against him which caused him to lose his bid for reelection. He was replaced with a sheriff who was like the old sheriff that did not do much, but we liked him.
What a wonderful summary of US law enforcement; Popular = cops on drugs; cops kicking the shit out of people; cops sexually abusing female inmates: Hated = not allowing cops to take drugs; cops not committing criminal assault; cops not sexually abusing women! Jesus Christ on a bike!
I've watched Band of Brothers several times but am now having major problems with the series. I've read a lot more accurate accounts and there are a lot of things that could have been done more truthfully.
It was pretty well documented that Sobel could not read a map well. That really is not up for debate. Several of them said he was not a bad officer so to speak, just that he would not make a good infantry officer. That he was good in other areas of the war. There are other instances of enlisted guy saying Winters was a great officer and that he was a good tactical leader. So I am not really sure why Shames throws so much dirt at him like that.
Suck up was a insultingly pejorative choice of words. Calling him overly permissive or accommodating would have gotten the point across but saying that Winters "sucked up" to Ambrose says more about the accuser than the accused. I've watched a fair amount of Shames' in depth interview and he was very quick to see personal vendettas and anti-Semitism in many decisions that didn't go his way.
Books and TV series are just snapshots of people and events - sometimes showing the good and sometimes the not so good. They do not give the whole picture or truth of the person or event. And people are complex, rarely are they altogether good or altogether bad.
It is unrealistic to think that the members of a unit such as this would all get along, holding hands and singing kumbaya as they negotiate a war, just as it is unrealistic to expect that all members of any work section get along. Ambrose was seeking to sell his book; he was a hack writer and a subpar historian who plagiarized and bent the truth as it suited him. BoB is an entertaining series, but it probably should have had a “…based on real life events…” disclaimer. The Greatest Generation deserves every ounce of respect and credit that they get. SA indeed helped with that. However, his words need to be taken with a grain of salt…
Shames was jewish and sobel was jewish , I got the feeling in an interview w/ shames that he thought he should have command ed Easy co. He had a huge ego.
I've watched about 100 minutes of the Shames interviews and the recurring theme I got from him was "I was great and if someone didn't like me, he were envious, anti-Semitic, or both."
This channel is kind of odd. Seems bent on making Ambrose out to be a villain. Not keeping in mind that without Ambrose, we don't have the greatest book and mini series ever produced on a single unit in WWII. Of course there were inaccuracies, personality conflicts, foggy memories, biases, and misunderstandings. This video alone goes to show how much is open to experience and interpretation. Supposedly Shames thought highly of Sobel. That doesn't mean more than the dozens who thought poorly of Sobel. Bottom line, none of us were there, none of these men can speak for themselves today, and Ambrose ought to be commended for doing such a fine job in bringing them to us.
Greatest book and mini series ever produced? Lol I don't think I will ever convince you of another side judging by that statement. Its fine that you are a fan of Ambrose and Hanks etc. I just present a factual alternative side.
@@War_And_Truth Flawed as the book, and apparently Ambrose, were, you have to give him two things. 1. Ambrose wrote interesting, if flawed books. 2. If Ambrose hadn't written BOB, none of us would know anything about Easy Company or the men in it. Before BOB, Easy Company was just another company pretty much indistinguishable from other American companies. Now we are here, hopefully having read some books written by or about Easy Company soldiers and are closer to knowing what the life of a WW2 paratrooper was like.
I was in the military in a small unit composed of 10 to 12 other sailors, in multiple high-stress and dangerous life-threatening situations. Over the course of my enlistment I served with 35 people as a result of normal rotation. If you asked everyone 11 years later who among us were the heroes and who were the cowards, who would push on and who were slackers, who knew what they were doing and who didn't, who were the leaders and who were the losers, who could remain calm in the face of the great chasm and who panicked, who were professional and who were clueless, who were the natural sailors and who just sucked at all things in general, you would get 36 different answers and all the stories and examples needed to back up those opinions.
Life is dangerous for the seamen
For a company of dementia patients maybe. You may get different opinions on who were bad soldiers as they can get political, but no foggy memories can skew great soldiers / leaders. And 11 years is nothing
I lost 2 family members to dementia. Your comment is FUBAR!@@tmzisscum
I had the honor to speak with Ed Shames several times about Ambrose and Ed is a man of the highest honor and told Ambrose he would not accept falsehoods in BOB. He was very frank with Ambrose about the false info and Ambrose then decided to ignore him. Ed said his honor was more important than "any damn book"
You see it in every organization -- there are those who are solely interested in the mission, part of which requires addressing issues where and when they occur. In the military, these are the guys who get it done. Then there are those who are interested in themselves. Finally, you've got the "go along to get along" types who follow others based on politics.
Interesting to see that things haven't changed since WWII.
Why be upset with the actor who portrayed Shames. He's an actor (employee). He was hired to act and read from a script. It's not his fault if the movie makers got it all wrong.
He didn't say anything about the actor
I agree. There is a lot to unpack with this story alone. Matthew Settle for example only spoke to Speirs after the series was shown as Speirs did not want anything to do with Band of Brothers. This was the case for some other actors as well and if the vet didn't like he way he was portrayed he likely put some of the blame on the actor not knowing the ins and outs of making films.
I don't know if they should have dragged the vets into it, you can see from Shames that it caused a lot of animosity and they didn't get the story right in any case. There was enough historians around (Mark Bando for example) to get the story close to factual and not drag anyone's name through the mud.
And he knew he was just a minor character, so he needed less contact with the real Shames, as his portrayal would not be seen very much on screen. The issue is, why was he a minor character, and why were the other platoons ignored, or treated as somewhere to be transferred to or from? In some cases, they were the villains as "Why is it always us" cropped up quite a few times in the TV show.
@@Loosehead
Not necessarily. Sometimes bigger scenes or entire characters are taken out during the editing process in post production. Shames could have many scenes that were cut.
@@nicholasmuro1742 I thought you had criticized the guy who made the video.
I’m the lead researcher for a series of books being written about Canadian Gunners in Afghanistan, called “With a Few Guns”. Vol 1, 2001-2006, was published last yr, Vol 2 covering 2007 to 2014 will be out next yr
I’ve been involved with the project for over 5 yrs and I can certainly relate to some of the issues you’re bringing up here
When the main source is the memories of those who served, you know it’s going to be next to impossible to put something out there that all will agree is how they saw it
Shames certainly sounds like someone who had strong opinions on many things, I’d hazard a guess it became very difficult for Ambrose to resolve that with the viewpoints of others. I don’t doubt there was friction with a number of other vets in just trying to get material; old animosities and grudges probably came to the surface again.
Ambrose himself, as is well known now, had serious flaws in his approach to telling history. But in the end it has to be acknowledged some good did come out of his work. Foremost is that it encouraged another generation to become interested in the incredible accomplishments of the “greatest generation”, eventually leading to the creation of the HBO series, generating even more interest. This of course has led to even greater examination of their experiences. But I think one has to be mindful that compromises will inevitably happen when retelling the complexities of so many personal viewpoints, especially when recounting traumatic experiences. I’m thankful for Ambrose work, flawed as it is, and yours
Never let the truth get in the way of a story. Pick and choose, name and blame.
For real?
@@Bandog23 I think you missed the sarcasm in that.
I never take biographies or personal accounts as 100% accurate as things can be remembered differently and people can have personal opinions and bias to certain individuals they serve with but nonetheless it gives insight on events that a simple written historical account cannot capture. Another thing to take away from this is although the soldiers of Easy were heroes they were also human and flawed in many ways.
Yes. We do tend to idolize that generation. There are always plenty of stinkers, huh?
We can fall in love with a perspective of history. Thanks for making me think about other perspectives.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Ed Shames was the real deal. His interviews are on youtube and definitely worth watching. He was well into his 90s and sharp as a tack. He came to Easy Company from 3/506 where he worked very closely with the battalion CO LTC Wolverton who was killed in his chute on D-Day. The 2/506 officers considered him an outsider and the fact he was Jewish didn't help. Many of the 3rd platoon soliders thought very highly of Lt Shames and he was even the best man at Forrest Guth's wedding. Ed went on to serve with the CIA and NSA after the war with great distinction. He also had an awesome Tidewater Virginia accent. Watch his interviews, he didn't pull any punches.
That old accent... it's dwindling here. Not too many people have it anymore. Even growing up in the Tidewater, I never picked it up.
Little local details like that which make people interesting are disappearing all over the nation.
yeah he wasn't liked esp by many of his guys in 3rd plt, winters never trusted him , and later in life he was taking credit for what others had done in the unit.
Unless you’ve served under a Jewish officer you won’t understand how things actually are. I’m a retired Infantryman and served in two wars, I served 26 years, all Active Duty and the WORST Officer I’ve worked with was a jewish Company Commander who treated every single person as sub human beings, that’s the best way I can politely describe it. Thankfully that Officer was finally charged with abuse of power and given the choice to face a court martial or get out of the Army…..he promptly resigned his commission and moved back to his mothers house and lived with her for about 18 years according to NCO’s who tracked him. Sobel is a common jewish name and he has jewish facial features and aggressive behaviors towards non-jews so not sure why people don’t think he’s jewish. Many jews are heavily indoctrinated from birth to think that jews are a supreme race and that the goyim are there to serve them and the best of us deserve the blade. Often the good jews will abandon that dangerous way of thinking and become great men but sadly, many don’t. I just wish I had it all wrong but I finally locked in my view when a jewish man who was married to my aunt screwed me out of my inheritance and stole my grandfather’s M-1911 pistol he used when he was a pilot in WWII. It’s their duty to take from non-jews whenever the opportunity presents itself and to not do so is a sin according to their religion (Talmud). All their doctrines are easily available online so I advise disbelievers to research the truth to find out for themselves.
@@mr.weatherman403 Yes, in New England (Boston) as well. And did you notice the South Philadelphia accent that Babe had? You don't hear it anymore.
If you listen to Shames interviews, he was pretty loud even in his 90's.
According to Bill Guarnere What's over looked. Is that while Ambrose made millions. The real men of Easy Company were not paid anything for their stories told to Ambrose. He collected and used their material. Never offering compensation for their efforts.
That's a damn shame! Especially if they gave a ton of info! Even if it was a collective fund, he could have done something!
@@tnwhiskey68 I couldn't agree more.
That is upsetting.
That is not right.
Not sure how he could live with himself not compensating the Vets in some way.
Hey, you need to know that Babe and Bill went to Europe on the Company's dime (HBO) and drank $15,000.00 worth of alcohol while they were there. And yes, HBO paid the bar tab. Babe played a civilian in the Dutch town after it was liberated. He is sitting at the table were one of Easy Co. is making out with some chick. Diabetes be damned! Those guys don't know what sleep is!
More men survived the war under Shames' command than any other platoon leader. That is the ultimate achievement for a combat leader.
The truth just isn't good enough for some people. Ambrose seems to be that type.
" When truth isn't as dramatic as the legend, print the legend". The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance...
True historians have always questioned Ambrose's scholarship and not just on this one book.
@nandi123 It would be like Someone changing the history of the war of the roses. I remember reading about that and watching series about it, And thinking that the truth is better than any book could have been about it.
@@mindeloman He's an out and out plagiarist as well.
@@toddsmith5715 Yes I read that years ago and being a big fan of this book and others he wrote I thought it was utter bollocks. Now some years later I am finding some of these revelations, while trying to keep an open mind, quite disturbing.
If there’s one thing I’ve learnt in life it’s that multiple realities can be true at the same time. At the end of the day the rest of us were not around, so we can’t say for fact whose story is the most accurate. Let everyone have their say and peace, it’s still a good story.
No, they can be misremembered by first person witness/participants. but there is always ONLY one truth. Whether the exact truth can be ascertained and assembled is a different story?
Based on comments from the men,Sobel was considered to be a good trainer and they gave him credit for preparing them for war. But,they did not consider him to be a good leader in the field and were concerned he would get them killed.
More then likely Winters had a personal beef with Sobel, for one reason or another and he managed to get all the other guys in the company to hate Sobel.
It's very easy to do if you have one likeable person that the guys looks up to, he can easily manipulate the rest of the guys to think like he thinks.
Most guys that survived the war from E company credited their survival to Sobel.
Never heard anyone give credit to Winters or Nixon for surviving the war.
Like Ed Shames stated, most of his guys survived the war.
Most of Winters and Nixons guys Died or was wounded, and they got evacuated when the going got though.
Meanwhile Ed Shames held his ground and kept fighting with minimal losses.
No wonder Winters hated him.
@@jone8626 Nixon was not well liked,but most of the guys liked and respected Winters. I just got back from a 2 week Band of Brothers tour of Europe. George Luz,Jr was our tour guide.
@@jone8626 Amazing how many commenters have so enthusiastically swallowed Shames' unsubstantiated account as if it were the absolute truth that subverts everything that came before. It's like they had a pent up desire for years to crap on Winters and this finally gave them license.
Winters "easily" brainwashed over 100 E Company soldiers to hate Sobel? He was so successful that he got the Easy NCOs to frame Sobel for field incompetence AND turn in their stripes? That's an amazing level of mind control over dozens of men. Winters was in command of the company and later the battalion. Shames lead a platoon. You can't compare their loses. And Nixon wasn't even an combat leader so he had no men to lose.
@@dlxmarksNot all E company soldiers hated Sobel. Many others who were not interviewed by Ambrose dispute what was said about Sobel. These vets described Sobel as "tough but fair" in other books about E company.
@@jone8626 I don't think Winters ever hated anyone. He may not have liked a man, but it would have been out of character for him to let you know it. My experience in listening to him was that he tried to be very balanced. He would do anything to correct an injustice, or record.
Please also consider the job that Easy had to do, which was to be the first in and to take on the most dangerous missions. They would, under those circumstances, take more casualties.
I did not come away from B.O.B. with the notion that Nixon was some type of hero. On the contrary. I thought of him as a slacker. Unkempt, unmotivated, doing just enough to get by. I do not know where this hero stuff came from. As far as Shames throwing dirt at Winters, He (Shames) comes off to me as if he is a little jealous that he was not recognized like he would have wished. And as for Winters to be sucking up to Ambrose, I take that as Winters feeling absolutely gleeful that someone, anyone, was going to tell a story, their story, that had never been told before. As far as the matters that did or did not transpire the way some say they did, you have to understand that Hollyweird is going to take artistic license in a project to move it along and make it more interesting to the very people they seek to relieve of their money. When I went to Central America (3/5th ABN), my first C.O. was EXACTLY like Sobel's portrayal in B.O.B. He would scream, take on long marches in horrendous weather, never gave credit or accolades to anyone, criticized everything and everyone. He was universally hated by the entire Battalion. When he left, our new C.O. came in and let us show him what we could do without all the drama. We rose to the occasion, became Honor Company for the rest of my time in country and never, not once did we relinquish it. Napier sucked as far as personality went, but he trained the crap out of us. He just did not know how to lead.
Sounds like Shames got his feelings hurt to me.
Reminds me of the way Henry Hook was portrayed in ZULU, a drunkard and malingerer. In reality he was a lay preacher and teetotaler. Like someone here said , "don't let the truth get in the way of a good story." You should see my resume.
Yes, Hook’s family walked out of the premier in disgust at his portrayal.
On page 145 of the book titled, "Shifty's War" Darrel "Shifty" Powers tells of a patrol that 2nd and 3rd platoon were on while at Bastogne. He recalls, "whoever was calling the shots decided to hike back through an open field as a shortcut hoping to make it back to the foxholes before dark, I guess." He further mentions, "Those Krauts could track our positions all across the field and zero in their artillery." A little while later they got clobbered by the artillery strike that wounded Toye and Guarnere. It makes me wonder who led the platoons across the field. LT Compton was the PL for 2nd and LT Shames was the PL for 3rd.
Ambrose has been long known as a hack. I was actually late to it, 1st made aware while reading his account of the C-47 drop pilot's behavior. Matched up to nothing I was aware of after a lifetime of more than casual interest. Looking into it, I found there was a whole world of contested Ambrose scholarship. I had, and have, no dog is this hunt, but Ambrose was a showbiz wannabe who abused history (and the people who made it) to get there. Disgusting, really.
Sobel was Jewish. He was for a time married to a Catholic but he was Jewish.
His wife and son were and are Catholic, he was Jewish
He definitely grew up Jewish, and was Jewish ethnically and culturally. His son said that he went to Catholic church with them on Sundays, so it's possible he converted at some point.
I'd suggest reading the book on Shames written by Ian Gardner, called "Airborne: The Combat Story of Ed Shames of Easy Company". Shames writes the forward and the story is written with Shames as the central figure.
There are two sides to every story and the "truth" is somewhere in the middle. In my opinion the truth shades towards Winters and away from Shames.
Finding out Ambrose changing the story for money makes not want to watch it anymore.
Thats why i love Webster's book. He tells us he's a goldbrick. It seems like the most honest retelling of his life in WW2.
I read Webster's book..... Boy was it hard going... Hardly a riveting read...
I feel the truth is somewhere in the middle. While I acknowledge Ambrose has been found guilty of plagiarism and certainly took shortcuts. I also feel that there is an element of sour grapes with shame’s depiction of winters. From what I have read, Winters was acknowledged as a superior leader of men long before the band of Brothers book came out. if Sobel was as good as Shames contends, then why did the mutiny of competent NCOs take place if they weren’t concerned for their own safety? Don Malarkey’s book paints Winters as an exceptional leader too, and I don’t think Ambrose had any input on that.
Certainly characters like Blythe, Dike and Cobb were badly maligned, so it is reasonable to expect certain characters to have been over glamorized.
this seems to be sufficient evidence, however, that Winters was indeed remarkable leader.
Again, this is just my personal opinion and I don’t mean it to be definitive .
You are correct. Winters studied his a** off to learn all he could re: military tactics and was very fair to the guys. He was remarkable and so very lucky.
Ambrose needed to write about a unit and Winters had kept exhaustive records of Easy. So that made Ambrose's that much easier. And he had up-to-date contact information on Easy.
This is how I feel about it. Shames comes across as quite arrogant. Then you have soldiers like Floyd Talbert writing to Winters, "Dick, you are loved and will never be forgotten by any soldier who ever served under you. You are the best friend I ever had…you were my ideal, and motor in combat…you are to me the greatest soldier I could ever hope to meet."
@@keifergaudry3128Excellent point! and I feel that Shames was exhibiting some jealousy towards the “celebrity” of Winters and the represented heroes depicted in the series.
Your amazing videos have given me reason to question everything I thought I knew about the famous Easy Company of BoB. And that’s also after reading all the individual autobiographies written by E Co. members I am aware of. (And there are quite a few). I have reason to question the ethics of Dr. Ambrose and his dedication to telling the truth, whether it makes for the stuff of a good book or multi-million dollar miniseries. And I’m not alone there. Valid criticisms and questions about the authenticity and originality of Dr. Ambrose’s work were raised when he was still living. It’s impossible to know how or what men engaged in the greatest war in history thought about other soldiers, the qualities of leadership or even possible prejudices since all these veterans (with very few exceptions) have left us now. Major Winters is portrayed as Easy Company’s strongest and most able leader. Is such credit now in question? So many people comment that Capt. Sobel was a real SOB. An incompetent martinet. Yet members of E Co. have also been quoted as stating something similar to, “Captain Sobel made Easy Company.” What is an amateur historian to believe? Should we only look at the surviving, official records for the regiment, stored in the National Archives or DoD? After Action Reports (which I’ve read); that offer little to no insight on the relationships between the men? I’ve never understood why Dr. Ambrose singled out E. Co. to begin with. I have no doubt that you would have discovered amazing tales of courage under fire from any platoon or company in the entire 101st or 82nd Airborne. You could probably find stories of heroism, determination, courage, even dereliction in researching just about any allied military unit, because it involves the human condition. What remains indisputably true is that these men did serve in the war, many with distinction, many who made the ultimate sacrifice, and they deserve credit for that. I’m beginning to think that things get muddled and ruined when Hollywood comes calling. Even when names as noteworthy as T.H. and S.S. are involved. Thank you for the video.
yeah so i sent this video to the Keeper of the History of Easy co and he couldn't get past 5 min of this. He knew Shames and all of the guys in E co and their families. Shames was disliked by his own 3rd plt and the reason his platoon suffered less casualties than the others during the battle of the bulge. It’s because winters didn’t trust him, that’s why first and second always got the lion shares of the assignments. Winters trusted the men in 3rd plt BUT not Shames. now the guys in the company didn't publicly talk about him and kept the drama with in the unit. but their letters and documents do talk crap about him.
Shames also took credit for what others had done and his book is BS for the most part (i know 1 of the guys who helped on it) he wouldn't attend the reunions and even when he attended the big WW2 Weekend airshow in Reading,PA he almost got knocked out by another E co trooper who was only stopped by the CO of E/506th Reenacted who had to grab him mid swing.
Winters and a couple other members of E Company were focused on because they kept the best first hand accounts from WW2 from the day it began to the time BoB was released. I wouldn’t call Winters a “suck up” just because he was the focal point of the series. He was a plethora of information and not of which he gave up voluntarily like some may think. They worked on him for a long time to share the info he had stashed in his collection. From many accounts in numerous books, Shames was not an easy NCO to deal with so if there’s a few that don’t like him, oh well. It’s easy to take shots at people after they pass and can’t defend themselves.
ummmm---? I think Shames was a Commissioned Officer, not an NCO.
@@gusloader123 Shames was promoted to operations sergeant in England during the lead up to Overlord. He was promoted to second lieutenant after returning to England before the jump into Holland.
@@gusloader123, there are many personal interviews of Shames on UA-cam. Worth watching.
War & Truth -
I was honored to spend some time with Ed Shames. Great man of integrity. I have some interviews of him speaking on this topic if you are interested in seeing them.
I've often wondered about Shames. He was depicted, briefly, as a screaming lunatic during the ONLY episode of "BOB" that he was featured in.
I read a book called "tonight we die as men" that talked about Shames and others. It's been a while so I can't really recall but I think he was mentioned quite a lot.
I've been studying WW2 Airborne history my entire life. Been with many of these men at reunions and overseas tours. I've also been friends with many over the years. I read the book shortly after it came out, and while it was interesting, it seemed a bit embellished. Later, I saw a few interviews with Ambrose, confirming my thoughts. Ed Shames did call me once, and we did have a lengthy conversation. My impression of him was that he was a tough and determined officer.
Shames interviews are very enlightening. Discriminating against people was widely prevalent in the times of that era. Anti-Semitic racism is not a factor anyone can dismiss as a true factor in the army. History affords us a perspective that the men of those days were yet to discover. The end of the war when camps were liberated, the effects of anti-Semitic beliefs were shown to the light of day. I think Shames’ account is not the copy that Ambrose was looking for, factual or otherwise, the story needed a protagonist and a hero. I think that the author chose the most compelling facts to fit the story arc. I think that Shames’ account has more accuracy than is comfortable for those who like the B. O. B. franchise, of which I am one.
I have never read that B-0-B book but have read at least 2 others by Ambrose. I have watched the B-0-B series via DVD's from the local library about twice. I found it was focused on Sobel, Winters, boozer Nixon, the mouthy Italian guy from Philadelphia, and a couple of other men such as Lt. Spiers, and the Company First Sergeant, and the big guy from Arkansas, and Malarkey, Blythe, and Gieblott (spelling?), the taxi driver that could speak some German. A Rifle Company has about a Hundred, maybe 120 men, TOE. Surely there should have been more mention of Lt. Shames, and others.
This video and statements by Lt. Shames are interesting, and I think Ambrose was probably not always factual. Wikipedia has a long article on Officer Sobel. According to that, Sobel was a real looser. He considered everyone his enemy. He tried to end his own life,,,, but did it wrong and instead he blinded himself. Nobody attended his funeral.
I was in the USMC infantry and except for the jumping out of airplanes, the stuff shown at CampTocoa in the video series was very similar to our training at I.T.S., Camp Pendleton. The idiotic Captain Sobel telling Infantry trainees that they cannot drink water was lunacy. We carried two full canteens, both at I.T.S. and in the "Fleet". We were reminded to drink water frequently.
IF 1st Lt. Sobel told soldiers they could NOT drink water, or to pour it out on the ground, then he would have been busted down to a Private. The Camp Medical Doctor would have called the M.P.'s and have Sobel (or any other idjit) arrested and reported to the Camp Commander. The number one killer of Soldiers and Marines in South Vietnam was not bullets but Heat Stroke and Heat Exhaustion. Water is mandatory, or you will die.
The thing about water is probably true. The Junction Boys, from 1954, had the story that lack of water toughened people up.
…and trainees have died from drinking too much water.
The purpose of not allowing them to drink water during marches had to do with water discipline. If you read accounts of the men in Normandy, it was pretty common to run out of drinking water. If they had drunk their water on the flight to Normandy, things would not have gone well.
And, since there was no account of people dropping from heat stroke or heat exhaustion, they must have planned those marches pretty well.
Haven been in a unit which had its " click" I can sympathize
Thanks for your work in unpicking this, it’s most informative. In this instance I try not to judge the people involved. I’m not religious, but I think the words, “let he who is without sin, cast the first stone” are appropriate. They’re all just men, who signed up to stand in front of bullets and we shouldn’t forget that, for all of their foibles. I think the way you’re handling this subject with great sensitivity and respect is beyond reproach. Well done to you.👍🏼
I appreciate that.
Not in anyone's defense, but after being out of the Army for over 30 years, I'm still learning things about events and soldiers I knew very well (or, at least I THOUGHT I knew well). In the case of Mr. Ambrose & his book, you just have to add in the opinion of someone who's only interested in a portion of the stories from a single perspective and "Viola!", you get a skewed view of a perspective presented by a 3rd party reporting from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-hand sources. Thank you for covering the tales that deserve to be added to History.
The more I find out about Ambrose the less I think about him as a historian. It appears that fact didn't seem to matter to him very much. In regard to Winters I think that he got way too close to Ambrose and didn't put as much emphasis on accuracy as he should have. I don't believe that Winters was an anti Semire however. I just don't think his and Shames leadership style meshed very well. Winters wasn't a yeller and I think Shames style rubbed him the wrong way. Sobel's style meshed much better with Shames and that is why he liked him. Sobel by most accounts was a very poor field commander and that alone is why the Sgts. mutinied. They felt he would get them all killed. Many in later years said Sobel was good at training but piss poor at leadership in the field. I find Ambrose's playing fast and loose with mens reputatios inexcusable, like Shifty Powers for example. I after much reflection don't think very highly of Ambrose as a historian. He was a novelist, and as a lover of history this is inexcusable.
Ambrose was a bit of a plagiarist as well.
Ambrose was an excellent historian. I disagree with your suppositions and denigration of Stephen Ambrose.
@@peterfennell6994 it was proven that he lifted significant portions of his Lewis and Clark story from previous books. I agree he was an excellent storyteller and that book was riveting. However, plagiarism is still plagiarism. Ask Joe Biden about plagiarism!
I believe Ed Shames! as a veteran - a sergeant in a combat unit i preferred that my soldiers will hate me (due to harsh drills. training and discipline) but be able to kill the enemy and survive a combat, than they will love me but be unprepared, unhardened, and ineffective and thus will fall like flies in combat!
How would Shames know anything about Sobal and Easy Company? He wasn't in easy Company unitl Operation Market Garden when he got his battle field promotion to Lt.. He would not have any first had knowaldge of the events of East Company leading up to that point.
Thank you for these videos.
It is invaluable to understand that history is complex, and our memories are influenced by many factors. Again, thank you.
No problem.
The story is mostly true...and it helps us remember what that generation endured and accomplished.
I always thought Ambrose was a great author. Not sure now Why wouldn’t he want to get his fax straight? He should’ve wrote the book as fiction.
There was also a lot of anti-Catholicism in those days as well.
Personality matters in small units.
Leadership isn’t just getting things done, it’s getting the men to want to do the things that need to be done
Thank you for another great video. It's hard to tell from the series, But it would be interesting to know which soldiers were in which platoon and how often they switched platoons. Did they just focus on one platoon? I am.guessing not, if Shifty Powers was in Shames platoon.
Thank you. I can kind of track the NCO's (Ill do a video on it) but the enlisted men are very difficult to follow as a lot were killed and replacements came in who were killed and others were transferred because they didn't get along with their platoon leaders. It was a bit of a mess.
@War_And_Truth I can imagine. I originally thought that maybe this click was in the same platoon, but It seems like they switched platoons like you said. If Shames was rhe platoon leader the whole time, it is crazy they didn't mention him more. I have read Ambrose's book and Webster's, and it still can get confusing, bc they switch up so much. I am sure you will do an episode on it at some point, but it may be cool to get the viewpoint of the soldiers who did not make it into the series, and how they felt. I am currently watching it again, With someone who has never watched it. I am letting them watch it first, and then I will tell her about what is real and what isn't. She is very much into it, and now is hooked. I feel like telling them from the beginning that many things are not real would take away from the pleasure you get from the first watch.
I find it interesting that the miniseries doesn’t portray guys like Paul Rogers or Earl McClung, but they did have them in the interviews for the documentary. Could it be possible that the guys themselves asked not to be portrayed in it?
@@edm240b9 I could have sworn I saw McClung portrayed in the Webster episode of the raid to get prisoners. They at least said his name, and I think he was portrayed, but just barely. A very background character
@@GR-bn3xj now that you say it, yeah, I remember the scene where Sgt. Martin calls out McClung for the patrol. That said, I don’t remember him having a bigger role in any of the other episodes.
@@GR-bn3xj Yes, he was in that episode. His other scenes could have been cut. It happens. Like Johnny Depp in Platoon.
@edm240b9 Yeah, that's about the only scene I remember him in, But I definitely remembered that scene
@@GR-bn3xj According to IMDb, Rocky Marshall played Earl McLung and appeared in 3 episodes: Bastogne, The Breaking Point, and The Last Patrol.
Ambrose was 70% historian and 30% novelist. You can see this in his other works on the 7th Cavalry and the 455th Bomb Group (Heavy). The books are very good but the accuracy has holes when you do some deeper historical research. Also, the Army works because of a lot of unrecognised, unpopular people doing jobs that other more recognised people weasel out of doing. I am glad to see these facts are being aired. Thank you for your videos. Well done.
He should have been a fictional writer like Herman Wouk.
It upsets me that the book and show that I love misrepresents people. But at the same time, I’m glad you’re setting the record straight.
So people need to stop and think about that fact that Lt Shames did not join Easy company until after D-day. Being in I company 3rd Battalion during training, he would of had little to no interaction with Easy Company and Captain Sobel at Taccoa, and being that 3rd Battalion was in Ramsbury not Aldbourne prior to D-day, he again would have of have very little interaction if any with Easy Company and Captain Sobel. How can he make any authoritative critique of Captain Sobel's field abilities 60 years on? I'm sure he was a very capable NCO/Officer and that he may have been shunned by Ambrose, but again, he was never really in a position to have formed any real knowledge of Captain Sobel's field skills . I've listened to his interviews, I've read a great deal on both the 2nd and 3rd battalions and simply believe 60+ years on he was simply embellishing his own memories of Easy Company. But that's just my humble opinion.
I’ll take a stab at this based on my experience with that generation/ combined with Military culture prior to the UCMJ. Shames sounds like what many will call a voice of reason. Meaning that most officer communities (from that era) wanted someone who is unfiltered. Someone who isn’t afraid to speak up when needed.
Again always a pleasure to watch your work. Thank you for guarding truth. 👊🏻
Thank you
@@War_And_Truth no my brother thank you. It’s refreshing to see someone keeping it real. I hate phony stuff that lines the pockets of people who don’t care about anything outside their bank account.
Didn't Ambrose get pinched for plagiarism?
Yes a number of times.
I find it interesting that most of the major figures profiled in Band of Brothers wrote memoirs to correct oversights or errors in the original book. If memory serves, I believe Winters and Compton (and others) blamed factual errors on Ambrose's haste and his overreliance on Guarnere's interviews. Memory can be a fickle thing, and, when most of the men had a good, maybe fair assessment of Winters, I think the more harsh criticisms of Shames can be rooted in that he may not have been a joiner. As far as the casualty rates in platoons, even Winters noted that he had an almost formulaic approach to combat, which meant that 1st Platoon became the main assault component, 2nd was the maneuver element, and 3rd held as the reserve. He believed the casualty rates were reflected in his own failure to overcome that formula.
W&T, I think we have to trust you, that you have all this additional information. In the end, Ambrose and the BOB, Dick Winters is the prevailing story and elevated the 506th from obscurity to the forefront of history. IF Ambrose got it 80% right then he was the first to do so and bring the story to a book and the Miniseries ?
Ambrose needs congratulations. Dick Winters also. The others like Ed Shames' stories brought out like you are doing !
BUT = THINK ! Without Ambrose , there was no story and you would not be posting now.
Your work is brilliant and I am subscribed.
Hollywood screws up a lot of great military feats but “ it’s just Hollywood “ !
History is best told by those that witnessed it. Ambrose did not witness anything, and relied upon stories, of which some might be hearsay or muddled over time.
That's why I prefer David Webster's book which was based on his wartime journals. Still just one man's take on the situation but as close to the events as possible.
Interpersonal dynamics just like most families, coworkers, fraternal organizations, labor unions, sports teams, chess clubs, the Hells Angels and Carmalite nuns.
Basically everyone who interacts in group endeavors.
Holy shake!!,,,this series of videos never gets boring and is really interesting to get deeper in the lives of this remarcable generation of warriors ,,,,please tell me that you do your best to base your videos on facts ...tell me!!!
I only source from the veterans and combat reports/506th scrapbooks etc. I don't take from other commentators unless I can cross reference the information.
@@War_And_Truth Thanks for confirming this,,,keep the great job going!
Sgt rod sthrol died in 2019 as you said he’s still alive today have you just made this video or was it made before 2019 because as far as I’m aware no one is alive today from easy company good video thanks
Shames interview which was the source was taken in 2014. Here is the original. I don't change the narrative if it comes direct from the vet.
ua-cam.com/video/hatgdbWDiP8/v-deo.html
Before "Band of Brothers" there was "Parachute Infantry" by David Kenyon Webster that paints an entirely different picture of the E Company 508th Infantry. Read both to get a balanced view.
I read Parachute Infantry. Webster really didn't like some officers. But his seemed to be an honest look at his own military career. Webster wrote this right after the War but couldn't find a publisher at that time. He tragically died in a boating accident many years before the Ambrose book came out.
@@ToddLucky-z1b Webster was in college for journalism when the war broke out. Its partly why he refused any rank. He wanted to experience the war as a private and then write about it. His stark, factual account of war as he saw it did not comport with the euphoria of victory prevalent in the immediate post-war period.
Shames strikes me (as a former RSM) the kind of Officer I’d like to have in my Regiment. No nonsense and competent. Not out to make friends but to have the mission completed successfully and at as little cost as possible.
I did not know this about shames. It is unfortunate that this book, and show looks more and more like a high school popularity contest…
You still don't know about Shames. I met him personally on two occasions, and both times, he behaved like an egotistical jerk. He has passed away now, but he used his final years to sling mud at everyone else who took part in Ambrose's research for the book. Mind you, I wasn't in Easy Co, and Shames must have some good qualities when he was a soldier, but after meeting him and talking to him, I can see why he was not well liked in the company.
If 4 or more of those band of brothers veterans had stated about Sobel, it means that it's true, even about E Shames, he even tainted Ambrose and Winters.
Shames' book was awesome - he was truly a badass. He did missions behind enemy lines was involved in a lot of fighting in Normandy all before he joined Easy. The series was unjust to Shames.
Ambrose and Winters were not fans of Shames.
If one is going to write a book and make a movie about ACTUAL people… they need to make damn sure they get the facts straight.
I read the book and watched the series, and couldn’t understand why they thought so poorly of Sobel. He made Easy the toughest - not Winters. It was Sobels job to prepare the men for conditions harder than they had ever experienced before - he did an excellent job, even if it meant that they hated him. No one can really prepare you for war, but Sobel did his best. Everything they didn’t like about him was a lesson for them in perseverance and stamina. From cancelling leave passes, and making them run extra miles after a man drank from his canteen. These were all lessons they had to learn and were directly applicable to conditions that could apply once they were in theatre.
Winters on the other hand seemed to be portrayed as everyone’s friend and counsellor - but that was not really his job. He seemed too considerate and careful - whereas the men needed to be pushed passed the level they thought they were capable of. He did not do this.
Did he even discipline anyone, ever - apart from Dike.
You would have to be a veteran to understand. I'm guessing you are not one.
@@allanrickman7482 Sorry - to understand what? That the series was a little biased. That the makers relied too much on Winters memoirs, and didn’t fact check themselves or confirm details with more than 1 Easy company source.
I have served, but not in combat luckily, 20 odd years ago. And nearly every military organisation around the world used pretty much the same model or training at the time - break you down, in order to build you up. Some use a drill seargant as the means to dish out punishment and focus the hate, but in Easys case it was Sobel.
Not really much to understand.
Yes, military training probably has changed over the years. But I am fairly certain it was still basically the same in the 1940s American.
Winters men all said he led from the front, as you know Winters has the DSC for the Manor attack and is taught in West Point to this day,not bad for an "OK Leader "Shames was one jealous man
I’ve always thought Ambrose was a fake. Even before the book or series.
When I was in grad school, the first lesson was that research studies could be skued in any direction the researcher saw fit.
Great channel,
just subbed.👍
Thanks for the sub!
I do appreciate much of the new information that you have included in this review of the Band of Brothers mini series. However, I do have some concerns about the general treatment given to the subject. I don't feel that starting a critical review of a subject with preconceived conclusions and then presenting only negative views from supposedly overlooked individuals is a fair approach to a subject (particularly if the subjects of those views are deceased). By the way all historical treatments, be it book or movie, must be selective of materials included. Otherwise the general theme of the presentation is lost or the book becomes another "War and Peace".
Incidentally, part of the reason that Samuel Elliot Morison gave such negative treatment to Frank Jack Fletcher was because the admiral wouldn't agree to be interviewed by him.
This information is already all out there. I dont accuse anyone of anything unless it is a known fact. I just present the stories from all sides good bad or indifferent. I appreciate the feedback but ill let the majority speak for my content.
My biggest surprise is that Liebgott wasn't a Jew but a Catholic. As for being denied a Medal because Shames is Jewish, my uncle Henry was denied a Soldiers Medal after pulling two wounded men out of a minefield by a rabidly Anti-Semitic Captain! Sobel may not have had the proper "stuff" to be a good small unit Combat Commander like Winters undoubtably was. However he was not dismissed by Sync at a time when many were demoted and he seems to have done well on D-Day. My dad's Company in the 75 ID had one of the officers killed. My dad saw him shot through the head. All of the other Company Offices ran away. How'd he know? They were nowhere to be found in the thick of the fighting. ALL of them showed up back at camp later. None were relieved!
If I remember correctly, 3rd platoon had the least casualties because they were usually in reserve? I vaguely remember Winters saying that?
Shifty Powers, Joe Liebgott, Forrest Guth, Smokey Gordon and Paul Rogers were all in 3rd platoon. Not sure they'd agree they were usually in reserve.
I figured out years ago that movies that are "nonfiction" never tell it as it happened--never!. And the same goes for nonfiction books. Story telling is an art more than anything. Same for movies. And the bottom line is what matters for those who create books or movies. That's not cynical to make such a statement. It's the way it is. Besides, even the best story telling and the best researching methods will still never be complete nor 100% accurate. It's impossible.
I recall reading BOB back in 1995 or so after my dad gave me the book for my birthday. I enjoyed it, but there was a part that bothered me about it. That is when Ambrose himself was making a personal statement about Sobel, describing how Sobel, "...could not even get his own suicide right". Recall that Sobel shot himself, but managed survive for some time afterwards before he died. I thought that for the writer, who should always be unbiased and impartial observer and recorder of events, made it known to the reader his personal feelings about Sobel. It was unprofessional to do that. And let's not forget the plagiarism scandal that came after his book The Wild Blue as published. That too, was a good read, but it tarnished Ambrose's reputation even more for me.
The upshot is, human beings are fickle, flawed critters no matter who they are.
It sounds like Shames had kind of a chip on his shoulder and had a tendency to carry grudges. He was probably a capable officer even if he wasn't particularly personable. It seems he took his role as a combat leader seriously, and didn't particularly care whether his troops liked him personally. As he himself said, he'd rather be respected than liked. He didn't seem particularly impressed by Steven Ambrose. Ambrose's well documented ethical lapses as a historian include being guilty of extensive plagiarism. His willingness to sacrifice allegiance to facts over "a good story" showed he was more interested in being a famous best-selling author than serious academic historian.
On the other side of the coin, we'd of never known about Ed Shames, Dick Winters, Don Malarkey etc. if Ambrose hadn't put out that book. We should be used to inaccuracies by now with decades of movies based on real life events or people that get Hollywoodized. Because of that one book, we've had so many others put out including one that Shames endorsed.
Shames sounds very bitter. His comments regarding Winters were disgusting. I have never heard one member of Easy Company talk about Winters being an anti-Semite.I have studied a great deal about Shames andbeingJewish I feel helooked for anti-Semitism real or imagined. I agree with his assessment of Ambrose.
Maj. Winters was NEVER an anti-Semite. NEVER. he had always expressed great sympathy for the Jewish people and for Israel.
I have read a number of memoirs by many of the Easy Company soldiers, and I think anyone who is open minded will be able to see that there was good and bad opinions about most of those guys based on different memories and opinions, but that there is still a general consensus about the officers and enlisted men that does come out in their books as well as Ambrose's book. Some things obviously were written with the thought that some of those men or their relatives might object to the stories in the book or in the series, so they soft pedaled some of it. But the consensus of all who have written or responded to the book and series is pretty accurate. It is easy to criticize people when they are no longer alive to respond to criticism.
I. Agree they characterize assassinated many. Especially Sobel.
And how do they get PFC. Albert Blithe wrong.
Cliques in the military are a real thing. If you aren't a member of the club, you aren't going anywhere. I am glad to have found this channel because the series felt so wrong to me for being an "historical docudrama", especially when I discovered years ago that the story about Blythe was so wrong, even on the basic stuff. This is coming from 12 years of service- 9 AD, 3 NG.
And didn't Ambrose get into hot water for plagiarizing or something like that?
20 year Air Force veteran here. You are absolutely correct about cliques in the officer corps. If you aren't one of "the boys" you aren't going very far. And you are absolutely correct about Ambrose. He has a very bad reputation amongst historians. He used his children and students to do research and turned-out books like they were popcorn. When accused of a number of instances of plagiarism, he shrugged them off as honest mistakes and said he would correct his books. He never did.
And Nixon should have been disciplined. You can't have an officer totally contemptuous of the rules. I don't know the dynamics of Sink and Nixon but it appears that Sink allowed him to skate. Why? I don't know.
Whether it's a victorious nation in war, or of a popularity contest at the personal level; history is written by the victors. You are doing good work here. Keep it up.
I've read the book and watched the series several times, I see it for what it is, entertainment, not a war documentary.
Where oral history and recollection are concerned it's virtually impossible to nail down an accurate account of events. It's therefore unwise to hold strong opinions one way or the other unless there's strong supporting evidence in another form. Diaries written immediately after the event, for example, are likely to give a more accurate account; though even this kind of source can be fallible.
Shames made a few points. I know if I ever write a book about Nam, I will refer to it as fiction based on fact for several reasons. My personal experience with people is just that, mine. Your experience with that same person might be completely different. Everyone's perception of time changes over their lifespan. Even the same occurrence can be reported differently by people who were there. And your recollection can be compromised by emotion (fear), exhaustion, illnesses (high fevers), and the lack of more knowledge of that very situation. And most of these guys knew each other for more than two years and longer, and still their recollections varied!
I will "pick" on one thing: Winters was NEVER an anti-Semite. He always expressed sympathy to Jews and Israel. If you are in a position of leadership and you must discipline a person of a different race or religion, how does that person know that it is not because of those reasons?
You look to see how he treats others. Are they treated the same as you when they screw up? If so, then you have no beef.
Excellent video. You have done some excellent work here. (I love your scholarship!)
Enlightening.
It seems to me you've proven that Ambrose was untrustworthy & untruthful, so everything is suspect of his works unless proven otherwise.
But you trust this youtuber? Don't get me wrong, he does a great job, but yr opionions change that drastically over watching these vids? You absolutely discredit ambrose? I mean this gentleman hasn't exactly provided his sources either. But you trust this?
@@K37-h1z Considering that there's been more in previous vids, ya the weight of evidence is that way. What would be this UA-camrs motivation to do it though?
He’s stating quotes straight out of an interview with Ed shames, there is no falsification going on here about what’s being said. Hes actually doing a damn good job.
@@K37-h1z its not just this Ytuber SA has been called by several historians for fabrications in his book and the BOB series. Blythe and Sobel. Blythe lived FFS and fought in Korea! That is a stupendous screw up. Sobel got either a Silver or Bronze star so not a coward. same with Dike. Yeah I enjoyed the series but real life is sobering. Should have called it BOB what may or may not have happened in Europe. Disappointing..
I’m going to defend Ambrose. First of all, any author is going to gravitate toward officers or higher ranking people whenever there’s a dispute in an account. The human bias here is that they would have the “bigger picture.” Second, Ambrose is quite open about the fact that in his interviews, he often came across contradictory accounts of what happened. He did the best he could to try and determine what was actually true and even admits he may have gotten things wrong. I’m not sure why he’s getting all of these.he’s interviewing people decades after the events happened. He had a tough job and I have no reason to think he did not do the best he could.
Regarding the TV series, once the TV/movie people buy the rights, you lose significant control. There are many books that have been turned into movies, true story, type books, where key details, get changed, omitted, etc., for the purposes of entertainment.
Who s right ,who's wrong.?
To me ,it's not the point -the good thing is being able hear from other perspectives
According to Ambrose /Winters -Shames" thinks he had yell all the time" , period , not exactly V complementary or informative ..
So we'll done for this splendid research &please keep it coming 😊
Thank you
What the series did to Albert Blithe says all u need to know.
It's like this - Ambrose was an excellent _"Popular"_ Historian. He knew how to pluck the emotion strings - and he did.
That is what he was there to do - and he was very successful at it.
The thing with a lot of Histories - is that they are dry and factual - not entertaining.
One of the things about human beings - is that they relate to other human being's emotions. Thus the popularity of Reality TV and some of these shows that are nothing but people back stabbing each other and lying.
That kind of stuff makes things entertaining.
If you look at some popular movies - such as _Money Ball_ and _Sully_ - they outright lie.
In the formula - and this is what Ambrose was doing - you have to have bad guys.
In _Money Ball_ they pick the manager to be a bad guy. In reality he was on board with what Bean was doing - and really resented his portrayal in the movie.
In _Sully_ the real Sullenberger - was incensed at the portrayal of the NTSB. The movie makers had to have some bad guys and the Geese - were all dead - so they picked the NTSB and made out like they were trying to Hang Sullenberger. Nothing could have been further from the truth. The NTSB - *_LOVED_* him. He had saved THEM from having to look at a hangar full of dead bodies - as they individually may well have had to do in the past. There had been an Aircraft Accident - so - there had to be an investigation to sum up what happened. The NTSB was NEVER out to get Sullenberger. *_THEY LOVED THAT GUY_* .
Further - lets compare how well the two HBO Series - _Band of Brothers_ and _The Pacific_ did.
_Band of Brothers_ did much better than _The Pacific_ with viewers. For this reason HBO didn't want to do _Masters of the Air_ and Apple did it.
_Band of Brothers_ was based on the book written by Ambrose - to be popular. It had Bad Guys. It had The Good Guys, triumph over the Bad Guys.
_The Pacific_ was based on books written by Robert Leckie and Eugene Sledge. These were Combat Veterans writing truthfully about their experiences. They were accurate. For the most part - The Bad Guys - were the Japanese - but the Americans are not portrayed as great heroes - but - as men struggling to do their jobs and survive in miserable, dangerous conditions.
The Audience found the Series based on the Popular Writer Ambrose's books more enjoyable. It appealed to their emotions more. _The Pacific_ was painful.
So - they watched _Band of Brothers_ and not so much _The Pacific_ (which BTW is the better of the two).
The thing is - Ambrose knew what he was doing. He was writing _"Popular"_ History - not Scholarly History.
Here's another one - _Tora! Tora! Tora!_ was an utterly fantastic movie but - it didn't do well with audiences.
Face it. Most people are schmucks who just want to watch something that makes them feel - not something that makes them think.
[*shrug*]
.
I want what I read to be accurate more than anything else ! When you start pitting personalities against each other, or, enter inaccurate material, you destroy the integrity of what you are trying to do.
Loved the book and series. Cant believe how wrong some things are. Thanks for your clarifications.
Thanks for watching!
The blue falcons usually move it, it’s just the way it is. I’m still proud in the unit and the people I served with. USMC 93-99
When I hear about Sobel, I am reminded of when a new sheriff was voted in when I was working at the sheriff's department. The new sheriff was not like the old sheriff who was very easy going and didn't supervise us deputies, jailers and dispatchers much. The new sheriff had retired from a large city police department and would not allow the deputies to rough prisoners up, he would fire jailers that were having relations with female inmates, and fire people that failed the drug test. The new sheriff worked hard, making several drug busts and made many improvements to the department. But, like Capt. Sobel, the personnel did not like the new sheriff and all campaigned against him which caused him to lose his bid for reelection. He was replaced with a sheriff who was like the old sheriff that did not do much, but we liked him.
What a wonderful summary of US law enforcement;
Popular = cops on drugs; cops kicking the shit out of people; cops sexually abusing female inmates:
Hated = not allowing cops to take drugs; cops not committing criminal assault; cops not sexually abusing women!
Jesus Christ on a bike!
I've watched Band of Brothers several times but am now having major problems with the series. I've read a lot more accurate accounts and there are a lot of things that could have been done more truthfully.
There is a story on UA-cam all about Sobel's life and his family and what happened to him.
It was pretty well documented that Sobel could not read a map well. That really is not up for debate. Several of them said he was not a bad officer so to speak, just that he would not make a good infantry officer. That he was good in other areas of the war. There are other instances of enlisted guy saying Winters was a great officer and that he was a good tactical leader. So I am not really sure why Shames throws so much dirt at him like that.
Wow.. call Dick Winters a suck up not from all the books I have read from members of easy sounds like you have the grudge
Suck up was a insultingly pejorative choice of words. Calling him overly permissive or accommodating would have gotten the point across but saying that Winters "sucked up" to Ambrose says more about the accuser than the accused. I've watched a fair amount of Shames' in depth interview and he was very quick to see personal vendettas and anti-Semitism in many decisions that didn't go his way.
@@dlxmarks - exactly right. The choice of words reveals the narrative of the accuser. It's bitter and jealous
Books and TV series are just snapshots of people and events - sometimes showing the good and sometimes the not so good. They do not give the whole picture or truth of the person or event. And people are complex, rarely are they altogether good or altogether bad.
It is unrealistic to think that the members of a unit such as this would all get along, holding hands and singing kumbaya as they negotiate a war, just as it is unrealistic to expect that all members of any work section get along.
Ambrose was seeking to sell his book; he was a hack writer and a subpar historian who plagiarized and bent the truth as it suited him. BoB is an entertaining series, but it probably should have had a “…based on real life events…” disclaimer.
The Greatest Generation deserves every ounce of respect and credit that they get. SA indeed helped with that. However, his words need to be taken with a grain of salt…
People remember things differently. If you have three kids come home from school and talk about a fight that happened you’ll get three versions.
Shames was jewish and sobel was jewish , I got the feeling in an interview w/ shames that he thought he should have command ed Easy co. He had a huge ego.
I've watched about 100 minutes of the Shames interviews and the recurring theme I got from him was "I was great and if someone didn't like me, he were envious, anti-Semitic, or both."
I agree with the ego part. I met him twice, and both times, he came across as a jealous, egotistical braggart.
This channel is kind of odd. Seems bent on making Ambrose out to be a villain. Not keeping in mind that without Ambrose, we don't have the greatest book and mini series ever produced on a single unit in WWII. Of course there were inaccuracies, personality conflicts, foggy memories, biases, and misunderstandings. This video alone goes to show how much is open to experience and interpretation. Supposedly Shames thought highly of Sobel. That doesn't mean more than the dozens who thought poorly of Sobel. Bottom line, none of us were there, none of these men can speak for themselves today, and Ambrose ought to be commended for doing such a fine job in bringing them to us.
Greatest book and mini series ever produced? Lol I don't think I will ever convince you of another side judging by that statement. Its fine that you are a fan of Ambrose and Hanks etc. I just present a factual alternative side.
@@War_And_Truth Flawed as the book, and apparently Ambrose, were, you have to give him two things.
1. Ambrose wrote interesting, if flawed books.
2. If Ambrose hadn't written BOB, none of us would know anything about Easy Company or the men in it. Before BOB, Easy Company was just another company pretty much indistinguishable from other American companies. Now we are here, hopefully having read some books written by or about Easy Company soldiers and are closer to knowing what the life of a WW2 paratrooper was like.
Sounds like Ambrose was looking to write a coffee table book but with fewer pictures.