bro CAN YOU PLEASE BRING BACK THE DEMO I NEED TO PLAY IT AGAIN SO I CAN HELP ME GET REFRENCE FOR MY METROODVAINA also can i work for you at frith studio i send a email with my work please can you also please show us or make a engine to help with level desgn please
I think what was special about Hollow Knight’s map was how entering a new area was still a mystery, the map didn’t automatically update the moment you rolled up, you had to familiarize yourself with this new space before the minimap became an easy navigational tool
one thing about Hollow Knight though is that sometimes you would find a big room that block you off at one point, but on the map it looks like the whole room had been explored so if you enter from another side, you might think you've already been there before when you actually haven't. But then there were other 'hidden' large rooms that only showed the portion where you visited before, so if you entered from another side you would know you hadn't been to that part of the room yet. So if you are able, make the maps consistently like the later kind - so people don't miss a room because they think they've already been there when they actually haven't. Make it clear which parts of the room they've already been to before, and which parts they haven't.
Something in Metroid dread that I think you should do is: when a certain room has had everything in it found, some sort of way for the player to know. Since it can be daunting to search the whole map for what to do next. Or maybe at least mark when an entire area has been fully explored.
Honestly, I hate having to buy tokens to put on a map. I don't like feeling like the in-game economy dictates how many places I have to remember as opposed to placing a marker down.
I feel the opposite, I loved having to decide which map additions in the games I’ve played. If you wanted to you could make the purchase of map additions an optional mode or maybe setting that you turn on. But that would be a lot of work so don’t feel any need to do it
Yeah, it makes you think about your future choices and can you make it work with your current situation or do you actually need more. Also it depends on your game, I haven’t played it so don’t know but if it too hard then obviously make it either cheaper to buy or give them more at the start and then if it is easier increase the cost or give less.
Map: -Needs stickers. Being able to mark where to come back to once you have new mobility/item makes the game way more enjoyable. -Some visual land marks can be nice (helps ground the area and lets player get better feeling of structure of world) -You could either have map update constantly in real time, or have map update in segments (Hollow Knight bench system). Similarly you can have a way to buy or unlock the non secret but still unexplored parts of the map (HK/ER type system). I think there's trade offs to both. I do enjoy being able to unlock the rest of non secret maps late/after the area though. -Some way to indicate particularly hidden secrets would be nice. A room by room completion event probably takes the surprise out of secrets since you're being told immediately there is one. You could have some tracking of completion for an area of the map, or some item late game that lets you receive an audio or visual indication when in the presence of an undiscovered secret, or some item that marks them on the map again late game. That way finding secrets is organic throughout the regular play experience, but hints are available to completionists. If most your secrets are not super hidden (more HK/Blasphemous than Hyper Light Drifter) a system indicating secrets might be overkill, but still probably doesn't hurt to have late game. Some last thoughts on maps: Hollow Knight has a particularly weird and specific map set up. It's been years so forgive me if some aspect is wrong, but I think this is correct. You can update your map, but only at checkpoints (benches). You need to buy maps from someone who's not immediately at the start of the level though usually not hidden either before you can jot down anything. Buying the map shows you a basic layout, but isn't complete and doesn't show secrets. This system puts a sense of progress into 1) getting to any checkpoint, 2) purchasing the map [finding the map is a fine alternative], 3) exploring and lighting up the parts shown by the purchased map 4) expanding beyond the limits of the skeleton map you got from buying it, 5) finding secrets not shown initially in the map, 6) completing that full area of the map. I'm not saying you gotta follow their recipe to a tea, but I think there's a lot baked into why it's enjoyable. For me personally buying a skeleton of the map was enjoyable and allowed me to better strategize when I wanted to keep progressing in an area. That later part matters less if the game isn't gonna be really open-ended in terms of area progression. It was also one of the most meaningful pick ups and that's something valuable in a Metroidvania where you want players to be excited about exploring. General: -Limited fast travel is great. If the map is large I'd say it's essential. How rarely you want to make fast travel available, and how you want to unlock it will depend. But without it backtracking with upgrades/new mobility often feels more trouble than it's worth. This is legit the biggest killer of enjoyment for me in games. Some backtracking is fine (limited fast travel), having to walk from one side of the world to the other whenever I want to put a new mobility tool to use on an old secret isn't. -Exploration should feel rewarding. Interesting rooms/tiles, new or rare enemies (or combos of enemies), items that actually excite the player (this can be hard), mini-bosses you haven't seen before (HK showed very simple movesets can lead to memorable encounters as long as the encounter is unique). Hiding away good content always feels risky because you worry the player won't see it and the effort goes to waste, but if the only good content is on the beaten path exploration will feel absolutely unrewarding. This was my biggest gripe with Elden Ring where the finer of a comb you searched with the worse the quality of the game got (the main path stuff is fantastic, the minorly hidden stuff is great, the individual secret caves and stuff are mostly slop). -I definitely feel like the rooms need to ask more from the player instead of mostly being about walking left to right. This is a matter of taste, and obviously doing it well requires a ton of work that may not be worth it as a one man show. How to do this is gonna be the combo of enemies and platforming. Environmental hazards (unkillable hazards you have to time movement around) could be good too. -Progression should exist in some capacity. Do you have ways of doing more damage per hit with areas scaling to higher HP later? Do you get bigger or more interesting weapons? Do you find yourself wanting to use the stuff you find later, or do you end up sticking with some bread and butter. Does the mobility or other tools you find in the game meaningfully approach the game? Feature creep is real. You can't devote your time on everything so don't torture yourself over it. Just throwing out my observations in the general thing. Good luck with the project, it looks great!
The 2 most important functions of a map is to make sure you don't get lost, and tell you where to go next. Figure out how much you want someone to be able to wander around the levels uninformed as opposed to informed. Sometimes there's more exploration encouraged by not having map, sometimes it's the opposite. Typically for the opposite it's nice when maps have details on them that directly indicate unexplored areas or have a little bite size version of each screen mapped out so you can look at it at a glance and think "wait I didn't try jumping up here" or anything to that effect. So think about how much detail you're willing to put on the map and then that can inform how important it is to the player right away. If it's simple it can just be used to mark areas that can't be accessed quite yet.
One thing that I think you should add is a lot of Easter eggs. I love how in Stardew Valley there are a lot of stuff to discover. They might not be totally necessary for the completion of the game, but are there just for fun!
Amazing. I never really thought about how complex level building really is. It must take so much work just to plan it all out, before even touching the art!!
I know this a crazy complicated thing to request for a UA-cam comment. Making this game multiplayer, at least couch co-op would be awesome and would make the time I play this game way more enjoyable.
I love the way Animal Well handles the map system. I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that you have to unlock these features, but I love being able to actually draw on the map. There's many times where a marker isn't enough information for me to remember what was there that I wanted to remember. Plus, seeing the map full of arrows, circles, mouse-written text, etc. was pretty cool. This also allowed for the game to have more complex pathing without cluttering the map. For example, there's these pipes that get you from one room to another, but there's no indication on the map about where they are or where they'd take you, so I drew arrows on the map for the most useful ones (particularly, there were rooms that you could only access through pipes, and if you just look at the map they look like isolated rooms). Obviously this feature adds scope, but it's worth considering as it was really fun to play around with!
I think the best part of hollow knights map was being able to choose if you wanted to see your exactlocation in the map or not. If you did, it took up a charm notch (with the wayward wompass), but more experienced players didn't need the compass and so they could use it for something else.
Sonething I love about Metroid Dread's map is that after a while the room while pulsate slightly lighter if there's an item you haven't collected. Makes it actually accesible to 100% instead of having to just hit every single wall in the entire map.
What made HollowKnight’s maps so great for me specifically was that it was earned over time. You needed to work for all the convinces. This doesn’t need to be a payment but I don’t think I would like the map system in HollowKnight so much if in the early game with few geo I had to decide which markers or other convinces were worth the most.
Really excited about the progress you're making, this is going to be awesome! For the ingame map, here are some pointers: Absolute must: - Be able to zoom in and out - Be able to place, change and remove custom pins - Be able to accurately show your position in the room - Important NPCs (like merchants), save points, fast travel points and other important points of interest are marked on the map when you encounter them Would be great if: - Areas show completion % so you know when you've missed something in a given biome - Important landmarks show up as sketches on the map (HK does that - for example, the Ancestral Mound, the Temple of the Black Egg, etc.) - You can filter out what pins are shown on the map (the Ori games do this - able to filter out by save points, by quests, by collectibles, etc.) Lastly, for completionists, it would be amazing if there's a way very late in the game to unlock some option to show all missed collectibles on the map - Ori 2 does that by having a very long quest that in the end rewards you with an item that can be placed in one of the late game locations to show all collectibles you have missed. Aeterna Noctis allows you to buy expensive maps from an NPC for each area with all collectibles inside marked. Something like that could help players finishing up the game reach that satisfying 100% completion. Hope that helps and best of luck with the development and eventual release!
This comment was a reply to another comment talking about Hollow Knight's map system and my take on it: The thing that Hollow Knight had that also made it a mystery was that it was very hard and things worked in the background, it had a cycle of life that would work whether or not you were there. Hollow Knight had little props you could break so pogo, statues, fences, the Lore Tablets (the infected NPCs) and just hidden details that if you paid close attention enough, you would see there was a story behind. One of the most known examples being the 4 Chairs at the Mantis Lords, with one chair being broken, and you later find out that there was a fourth chair for a reason after encountering the 4th Infected Mantis Lord. That is something that I would like in Dewdrop, silent details that can be missed or be very obvious and would allow the player to piece things together without cutscenes or NPC dialogue. But it really depends on the game DewDrop is going to be, I've been watching these devlogs on and off (might binge watch them all later) so I have forgotten a lot, I have yet to grasp what the game wants to be but I could have said a bunch of nothing since this is my first devlog in a while. P.S Goodgis, i really love your game so far, it looks very fun to play and very carefully planned. Wish you luck on this project, can't wait to see more. ❤
I loved the Hollow Knight map with how it was laid out, with areas making sense (Lake over city of tears and whatnot) and with the map not giving too much away but still having a few key graphics to remind me of key elements I needed to return to. I recently played the new Metroidvania "Animal Well" which did something similar although leaving even less information on the map, instead providing players with stamps and a pencil to add their own notes and keep track of things! Also, fast travel points/hub; love to see one in any game and it can really be designed as a beautiful element that's enjoyable and not drawing a circle to teleport like RuneScape lol (although that's evidently still memorable to me 😅)
if anything, the minimap DEFINITELY needs a completion percentage or indicator for at least the general area. things like "is the boss defeated?" and "did you collect every item?" and "did you find every secret?" alongside a percent like "tumbleweed is 89% complete" things like that are really useful generally, but especially so for completionists who want to 100% the game in entirety ❤🔥
Absolutely every game ever should have markers in it. It's so nice to let the player Matt things out themselves and keep track of things that they want to keep track of, especially if they don't have a great visual memory like me. However you decide to implement them, as long as there are markers I think most people will be happy :-)
IMO the best way to handle making such big worlds as an indie is using procgen. Even if you want a static map, just either pre-generate stuff or have a static seed hardcoded into the game. Then just tweak the generation until you have something you like. Much easier than doing everything by hand. You can even mix the two approaches and have most of the game procgen'd, but then go in and do some touch ups to make it look or play better.
For a Metroidvania map, what I mostly want is clearly marked doors. Replaying Super Metroid gets confusing when you've been through a dense area, while Metroid Fusion fixes a lot of the confusion simply have letting you see where the doors are and colour coding the requirements to open them. When it comes to Hollow Knight's map, I like how you can easily look through all the areas, though I never really used the markers you could place yourself. The automatic ones were sufficient for me, but I image others might feel differently. I really liked how to you had to buy a map of the area and fill it out by resting too, but that would only really fit with a few games. Going back to Metroid, it makes sense that you wouldn't have to do that because of sci-fi tech doing it for you, but in a fantasy setting it makes more sense to have to do it yourself.
more than having a minimap marker system, i've noticed that having side quests or other things to do in the game that make the player think of/consider/benefit from using those markers to be important. in hollow knight, there isn't really a whole lotta stuff that makes you WANT to use the markers. but take a game like blasphemous where there's tons of collectables and movement abilities blocking those collectables, i felt really added value to having a map marker system..
Thank you. Looks so good. Loved the demo and played it twice! Love the foreground objects that give depth to the room. Also if we can have little parallax in the background tiles it would give it more depth! That'd be even more beautiful
Brilliant progress! I've not played a lot of metroidvanias but I think unlocking the minimap areas and being able to see if you've completed an area is pretty important.
What I loved about hollow knight's map was the sense of discovery and exploration: the areas weren't unlocked and fully displayed at once, you had to travel and map them out yourself, so you never knew what you were gonna stumble into next. Hell, the map was so ever-expanding that sometimes you didn't even know where you actually were, you had to figure it out yourself. Markers are great to emphasize that idea: the "exploration" feels more real if you can take notes of discoveries, areas you couldn't access yet but wanted to explore, and if you weren't using a compass, markers can also point out personal landmarks in huge areas, so you have more clues to figure out where you are. I can't always play games frequently, so note-taking is basically essential if I want to actually remember my goals, but also, it's very human to want to take note of things we think are important, so I think there's something great in giving the player the possibility to do it-in game!!
You don't mention a few things so I don't know how much you've thought about it already, but in very good metroidvanias, the world is a lot more than just some rooms, and the game is more than unlocking more rooms as you gain abilities. The best metroidvanias, like Metroid, Axiom Verge, etc. will lock you out of entire areas you've previously visited just to force you to stay in one designated area long enough to solve a certain puzzle (as opposed to thinking "oh I'm missing an ability from a previous area, let's go back"). The layout of rooms also tells a story and contributes to the lore of the game. The best metroidvanias will also subtly guide you towards progress. This was one of the major realization from Metroid Dread for example, the way you can have an intuition about where to go next. If you don't overthink, you'll naturally "flow" where the game wants you to go. In contrast I've played some bad metroidvanias in which I would reach a crossroad, without any hint as to which way to go next, pick one way, and only half an hour later realize "yeah no this is a dead-end, there wasn't any point in going this way. Where was that crossroad again?".
So each area needs at minimal Unque building , unique scenery , unique npc. Hollow knight does this really well. Also like how bosses heads appear on mini map. Another thing i like from some games is a secret tracker. You could have it like metroid where if yoh beat the mini boss yoh unlock that portion of the map too. Else it is unknown area until you beat the boss 😊
Imho, you don't need more than like AM2R: show unclollected secrets and unexplored passages and that's it. If all places you need are marked on the map, you don't need custom markers
I believe parts of it were borrowed from the same Hollow Knight Concept but Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown has an absolutely fantastic minimap system that is really intuitive and easy to use. You may be able to draw some inspiration from there as well.
On the topic of Hollow Knight's map, I didn't realise you could place multiple of each pin until over 60 hours into the game. Probably just me though, it was the first time I'd encountered a mechanic like that in a video game.
I'd like to have some coloured to mark gates treasures etc. on the map. And it would be cool to buy a sketched area-map with just hints here and there, I'd like to see it updated only after I've explored it.
So me, the only real Metro Vania game I played was hollow knight. But there’s a stew things you can take from that game which I would say. Make sure you can like find the map. I think what I kinda wished for Hollyn knows that you walk around the map until you find the actual map to look around in the map so if you missed a couple of things you can look up your map and then you can go to those things once you found your pacific map in the map. It sounds weird but I’ll say it better. You go into the Pacific area and then when you find the map for that area, you can look through that map to see if you miss something in the Pacific area. I think that would be exciting because that’s what I wish for hollow knight. But honestly, I love what you’re doing with the game. I will definitely play it when it gets released and honestly it seems exciting.
I really love dark levels on a metroidvania. Only having limited lighting even for a first pass through is really fun. And where's all the pots and barrels for bashing?! I must break things!!
Hollow Knight's map system's main strength is core to the metroidvania genre as a whole: it recontextualises your environment.. Just like how a power-up can change how you interact with a room, HK's map changes how your environment feels. Most of HK is dark and threatening, so without map you're stumbling around in the dark. Buying the map gives you some guidance, but no more than a nudge on where to go next. It isn't until you've been to a place and familiarised yourself with the environment that the map reflects this. However, this works as well as it does because of HK's atmosphere. Place the same system in a game that looks like a Mario game and you lose that impact. So consider if HK's map is the right tool for the job you want it to do.
Good zoom options for the mini-map, please! Appropriate max, min, zoom speed, and scroll speed. Please have the option to snap to my position with a button. It should scroll smoothly across the map, giving me enough time to orient myself. If there will be icons, they should be visible at all zoom levels without obscuring each other (too much, at least). Thanks for reading!
Best of luck, the game looks great. I always found the request for wishlists rather strange though. Just because wishlists are correlated with sales doesn’t mean it helps asking people to wishlist. It’s like asking people to put on a baseball cap because you want them to become baseball players…
Here’s a proposal: you’re have to buy the minimap tokens, but once you’ve bought them, you are able to use them infinitely( or you buy a lot in bulk). That way, you still have to work to get the tokens, but it’s not so grindy once you’ve unlocked them.
I assure you there is still interest in the switch. I'm not trading in my totk oled anytime soon Also the minimap could be a more zoomed in portion in the corner while you are playing but if you hold down a hotkey the whole map overlays the screen to check where you're ultimately aiming for in the level
Scope creep warning, I think the map you have is splendid and adding icons is super useful, but once you open up the buy tokens from the shop for your map, you will quickly see a lot of stuff popping up in your head, unless that is what you want, I suggest you build some limits on what does what and how and say nothing more...
what I loved about the hollow knight map is that I could _not_ buy the map markers. in my entire playthrough I never bought the markers, and I never used the charm that shows my location on the map
I would say for the map i need 2 things number 1 I need to know where I am in the world so i a point on the map to represent my location. Number 2 I need the map to change when I play to show any area I didn't visit already like GTA V map just shadow or something until you visit the area or zelda so I can keep tracking where do i need to go next beside this two anything else It will be a nice addition
Check out etrian odysey too for the map system. That game has a good approach to map building to create a sense of exploration. The game will track where you've been to help layout the space, but it's up to the player to mark things like treasure, doors and shortcuts etc.
In my recent review of animal well i criticize that the pencil is hidden behind a requirement. For me it was a big deal because i felt like i couldnt mark my map for points of interest which made me lose track of those places. Please make it easily accessible even if it is behind a buy system ❤️
Yoo this game is good anyway this game is getting better every devlog! Edit: How do you actually design this good Im jealous XD And whats the tool to deisgn some game design?
Help Dewdrop Dynasty reach 20K, by *WISHLISTING* the game today! 🐝🔥
bit.ly/WishlistDewdrop
ok
I will and I have, and I will be doing it on every family member’s device
I wishlisted a half year ago!
bro
CAN YOU PLEASE BRING BACK THE DEMO I NEED TO PLAY IT AGAIN SO I CAN HELP ME GET REFRENCE FOR MY METROODVAINA
also can i work for you at frith studio i send a email with my work please
can you also please show us or make a engine to help with level desgn please
I wish I could, but I already have 😢
I think what was special about Hollow Knight’s map was how entering a new area was still a mystery, the map didn’t automatically update the moment you rolled up, you had to familiarize yourself with this new space before the minimap became an easy navigational tool
100% agreed
Thanks for sharing! This is helpful.
Definitely, I think this is a major feature more Metroidvanias should implement.
one thing about Hollow Knight though is that sometimes you would find a big room that block you off at one point, but on the map it looks like the whole room had been explored so if you enter from another side, you might think you've already been there before when you actually haven't. But then there were other 'hidden' large rooms that only showed the portion where you visited before, so if you entered from another side you would know you hadn't been to that part of the room yet. So if you are able, make the maps consistently like the later kind - so people don't miss a room because they think they've already been there when they actually haven't. Make it clear which parts of the room they've already been to before, and which parts they haven't.
Same. Tokens were a neat idea I never used effectively, keep it.
PLEASE add the foreground objects to every room, it adds so much depth and it looks so good in the cactadillo room
Awesome! :D
I agree it is so good
Something in Metroid dread that I think you should do is: when a certain room has had everything in it found, some sort of way for the player to know. Since it can be daunting to search the whole map for what to do next. Or maybe at least mark when an entire area has been fully explored.
This! No matter how detailed the map is, this is definitely appreciated
After backtracking the entirety of animal well’s 250+ rooms several times to find eggs this would have been greatly appreciated
Honestly, I hate having to buy tokens to put on a map. I don't like feeling like the in-game economy dictates how many places I have to remember as opposed to placing a marker down.
That's I how feel as well.
I feel the opposite, I loved having to decide which map additions in the games I’ve played. If you wanted to you could make the purchase of map additions an optional mode or maybe setting that you turn on. But that would be a lot of work so don’t feel any need to do it
Yeah, it makes you think about your future choices and can you make it work with your current situation or do you actually need more. Also it depends on your game, I haven’t played it so don’t know but if it too hard then obviously make it either cheaper to buy or give them more at the start and then if it is easier increase the cost or give less.
i've never use token wtf xD
I love the foreground objects in the cactidilla fight!
Yay! :D
love the player roll animation so much, this game looks fluid to play
Thanks so much! Fluid movement is a big priority for me in games.
Map:
-Needs stickers. Being able to mark where to come back to once you have new mobility/item makes the game way more enjoyable.
-Some visual land marks can be nice (helps ground the area and lets player get better feeling of structure of world)
-You could either have map update constantly in real time, or have map update in segments (Hollow Knight bench system). Similarly you can have a way to buy or unlock the non secret but still unexplored parts of the map (HK/ER type system). I think there's trade offs to both. I do enjoy being able to unlock the rest of non secret maps late/after the area though.
-Some way to indicate particularly hidden secrets would be nice. A room by room completion event probably takes the surprise out of secrets since you're being told immediately there is one. You could have some tracking of completion for an area of the map, or some item late game that lets you receive an audio or visual indication when in the presence of an undiscovered secret, or some item that marks them on the map again late game. That way finding secrets is organic throughout the regular play experience, but hints are available to completionists. If most your secrets are not super hidden (more HK/Blasphemous than Hyper Light Drifter) a system indicating secrets might be overkill, but still probably doesn't hurt to have late game.
Some last thoughts on maps:
Hollow Knight has a particularly weird and specific map set up. It's been years so forgive me if some aspect is wrong, but I think this is correct. You can update your map, but only at checkpoints (benches). You need to buy maps from someone who's not immediately at the start of the level though usually not hidden either before you can jot down anything. Buying the map shows you a basic layout, but isn't complete and doesn't show secrets. This system puts a sense of progress into 1) getting to any checkpoint, 2) purchasing the map [finding the map is a fine alternative], 3) exploring and lighting up the parts shown by the purchased map 4) expanding beyond the limits of the skeleton map you got from buying it, 5) finding secrets not shown initially in the map, 6) completing that full area of the map.
I'm not saying you gotta follow their recipe to a tea, but I think there's a lot baked into why it's enjoyable. For me personally buying a skeleton of the map was enjoyable and allowed me to better strategize when I wanted to keep progressing in an area. That later part matters less if the game isn't gonna be really open-ended in terms of area progression. It was also one of the most meaningful pick ups and that's something valuable in a Metroidvania where you want players to be excited about exploring.
General:
-Limited fast travel is great. If the map is large I'd say it's essential. How rarely you want to make fast travel available, and how you want to unlock it will depend. But without it backtracking with upgrades/new mobility often feels more trouble than it's worth. This is legit the biggest killer of enjoyment for me in games. Some backtracking is fine (limited fast travel), having to walk from one side of the world to the other whenever I want to put a new mobility tool to use on an old secret isn't.
-Exploration should feel rewarding. Interesting rooms/tiles, new or rare enemies (or combos of enemies), items that actually excite the player (this can be hard), mini-bosses you haven't seen before (HK showed very simple movesets can lead to memorable encounters as long as the encounter is unique). Hiding away good content always feels risky because you worry the player won't see it and the effort goes to waste, but if the only good content is on the beaten path exploration will feel absolutely unrewarding. This was my biggest gripe with Elden Ring where the finer of a comb you searched with the worse the quality of the game got (the main path stuff is fantastic, the minorly hidden stuff is great, the individual secret caves and stuff are mostly slop).
-I definitely feel like the rooms need to ask more from the player instead of mostly being about walking left to right. This is a matter of taste, and obviously doing it well requires a ton of work that may not be worth it as a one man show. How to do this is gonna be the combo of enemies and platforming. Environmental hazards (unkillable hazards you have to time movement around) could be good too.
-Progression should exist in some capacity. Do you have ways of doing more damage per hit with areas scaling to higher HP later? Do you get bigger or more interesting weapons? Do you find yourself wanting to use the stuff you find later, or do you end up sticking with some bread and butter. Does the mobility or other tools you find in the game meaningfully approach the game?
Feature creep is real. You can't devote your time on everything so don't torture yourself over it. Just throwing out my observations in the general thing. Good luck with the project, it looks great!
The 2 most important functions of a map is to make sure you don't get lost, and tell you where to go next. Figure out how much you want someone to be able to wander around the levels uninformed as opposed to informed. Sometimes there's more exploration encouraged by not having map, sometimes it's the opposite. Typically for the opposite it's nice when maps have details on them that directly indicate unexplored areas or have a little bite size version of each screen mapped out so you can look at it at a glance and think "wait I didn't try jumping up here" or anything to that effect. So think about how much detail you're willing to put on the map and then that can inform how important it is to the player right away. If it's simple it can just be used to mark areas that can't be accessed quite yet.
Great advice! Thanks! :D
One thing that I think you should add is a lot of Easter eggs. I love how in Stardew Valley there are a lot of stuff to discover. They might not be totally necessary for the completion of the game, but are there just for fun!
Amazing. I never really thought about how complex level building really is. It must take so much work just to plan it all out, before even touching the art!!
I know this a crazy complicated thing to request for a UA-cam comment. Making this game multiplayer, at least couch co-op would be awesome and would make the time I play this game way more enjoyable.
I love the way Animal Well handles the map system. I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that you have to unlock these features, but I love being able to actually draw on the map. There's many times where a marker isn't enough information for me to remember what was there that I wanted to remember. Plus, seeing the map full of arrows, circles, mouse-written text, etc. was pretty cool.
This also allowed for the game to have more complex pathing without cluttering the map. For example, there's these pipes that get you from one room to another, but there's no indication on the map about where they are or where they'd take you, so I drew arrows on the map for the most useful ones (particularly, there were rooms that you could only access through pipes, and if you just look at the map they look like isolated rooms).
Obviously this feature adds scope, but it's worth considering as it was really fun to play around with!
Ur Dewdrop Dynasty series has really inspired me
if it gets success you need a level editor so it has a lot of replayability
I think the best part of hollow knights map was being able to choose if you wanted to see your exactlocation in the map or not. If you did, it took up a charm notch (with the wayward wompass), but more experienced players didn't need the compass and so they could use it for something else.
Sonething I love about Metroid Dread's map is that after a while the room while pulsate slightly lighter if there's an item you haven't collected. Makes it actually accesible to 100% instead of having to just hit every single wall in the entire map.
What made HollowKnight’s maps so great for me specifically was that it was earned over time. You needed to work for all the convinces. This doesn’t need to be a payment but I don’t think I would like the map system in HollowKnight so much if in the early game with few geo I had to decide which markers or other convinces were worth the most.
Really excited about the progress you're making, this is going to be awesome! For the ingame map, here are some pointers:
Absolute must:
- Be able to zoom in and out
- Be able to place, change and remove custom pins
- Be able to accurately show your position in the room
- Important NPCs (like merchants), save points, fast travel points and other important points of interest are marked on the map when you encounter them
Would be great if:
- Areas show completion % so you know when you've missed something in a given biome
- Important landmarks show up as sketches on the map (HK does that - for example, the Ancestral Mound, the Temple of the Black Egg, etc.)
- You can filter out what pins are shown on the map (the Ori games do this - able to filter out by save points, by quests, by collectibles, etc.)
Lastly, for completionists, it would be amazing if there's a way very late in the game to unlock some option to show all missed collectibles on the map - Ori 2 does that by having a very long quest that in the end rewards you with an item that can be placed in one of the late game locations to show all collectibles you have missed. Aeterna Noctis allows you to buy expensive maps from an NPC for each area with all collectibles inside marked. Something like that could help players finishing up the game reach that satisfying 100% completion.
Hope that helps and best of luck with the development and eventual release!
This comment was a reply to another comment talking about Hollow Knight's map system and my take on it:
The thing that Hollow Knight had that also made it a mystery was that it was very hard and things worked in the background, it had a cycle of life that would work whether or not you were there.
Hollow Knight had little props you could break so pogo, statues, fences, the Lore Tablets (the infected NPCs) and just hidden details that if you paid close attention enough, you would see there was a story behind. One of the most known examples being the 4 Chairs at the Mantis Lords, with one chair being broken, and you later find out that there was a fourth chair for a reason after encountering the 4th Infected Mantis Lord.
That is something that I would like in Dewdrop, silent details that can be missed or be very obvious and would allow the player to piece things together without cutscenes or NPC dialogue. But it really depends on the game DewDrop is going to be, I've been watching these devlogs on and off (might binge watch them all later) so I have forgotten a lot, I have yet to grasp what the game wants to be but I could have said a bunch of nothing since this is my first devlog in a while.
P.S Goodgis, i really love your game so far, it looks very fun to play and very carefully planned. Wish you luck on this project, can't wait to see more. ❤
I loved the Hollow Knight map with how it was laid out, with areas making sense (Lake over city of tears and whatnot) and with the map not giving too much away but still having a few key graphics to remind me of key elements I needed to return to. I recently played the new Metroidvania "Animal Well" which did something similar although leaving even less information on the map, instead providing players with stamps and a pencil to add their own notes and keep track of things! Also, fast travel points/hub; love to see one in any game and it can really be designed as a beautiful element that's enjoyable and not drawing a circle to teleport like RuneScape lol (although that's evidently still memorable to me 😅)
That lumbridge teleport animation is classic though! haha This is great, thanks!
What did you use to map out the game at 1:00
I can't understand the name of it and the subtitles won't pick it up
Love the look with the foreground layers. I'm a backer but haven't tried the beta yet. Waiting for the full release. Can't wait.
if anything, the minimap DEFINITELY needs a completion percentage or indicator for at least the general area. things like "is the boss defeated?" and "did you collect every item?" and "did you find every secret?" alongside a percent like "tumbleweed is 89% complete" things like that are really useful generally, but especially so for completionists who want to 100% the game in entirety ❤🔥
Absolutely every game ever should have markers in it. It's so nice to let the player Matt things out themselves and keep track of things that they want to keep track of, especially if they don't have a great visual memory like me. However you decide to implement them, as long as there are markers I think most people will be happy :-)
IMO the best way to handle making such big worlds as an indie is using procgen. Even if you want a static map, just either pre-generate stuff or have a static seed hardcoded into the game. Then just tweak the generation until you have something you like. Much easier than doing everything by hand. You can even mix the two approaches and have most of the game procgen'd, but then go in and do some touch ups to make it look or play better.
For a Metroidvania map, what I mostly want is clearly marked doors. Replaying Super Metroid gets confusing when you've been through a dense area, while Metroid Fusion fixes a lot of the confusion simply have letting you see where the doors are and colour coding the requirements to open them.
When it comes to Hollow Knight's map, I like how you can easily look through all the areas, though I never really used the markers you could place yourself. The automatic ones were sufficient for me, but I image others might feel differently. I really liked how to you had to buy a map of the area and fill it out by resting too, but that would only really fit with a few games. Going back to Metroid, it makes sense that you wouldn't have to do that because of sci-fi tech doing it for you, but in a fantasy setting it makes more sense to have to do it yourself.
more than having a minimap marker system, i've noticed that having side quests or other things to do in the game that make the player think of/consider/benefit from using those markers to be important. in hollow knight, there isn't really a whole lotta stuff that makes you WANT to use the markers. but take a game like blasphemous where there's tons of collectables and movement abilities blocking those collectables, i felt really added value to having a map marker system..
Looks good, If you want any pixel art help with the background props let me know :)
😛
Thank you. Looks so good. Loved the demo and played it twice! Love the foreground objects that give depth to the room. Also if we can have little parallax in the background tiles it would give it more depth! That'd be even more beautiful
3:38 that looks fantastic :D
Thanks! :D
Brilliant progress! I've not played a lot of metroidvanias but I think unlocking the minimap areas and being able to see if you've completed an area is pretty important.
Thanks for the feedback! :D
love the foreground layer, seriously makes the world feel so much more 3 dimensional
Thanks so much!
omg, the linux announcement made me so happy, it's so been able to run it natively without having to configure anything is a super nice thing to have
Heck yeah!
PLEASE keep the foreground layers, they look amazing!
Hi! Could you please let me know the software you used to plan out the map initially?
Also the movement looks awesome!
its almost here, the devlogs were all great and i enjoyed every part of the series.
What I loved about hollow knight's map was the sense of discovery and exploration: the areas weren't unlocked and fully displayed at once, you had to travel and map them out yourself, so you never knew what you were gonna stumble into next. Hell, the map was so ever-expanding that sometimes you didn't even know where you actually were, you had to figure it out yourself.
Markers are great to emphasize that idea: the "exploration" feels more real if you can take notes of discoveries, areas you couldn't access yet but wanted to explore, and if you weren't using a compass, markers can also point out personal landmarks in huge areas, so you have more clues to figure out where you are.
I can't always play games frequently, so note-taking is basically essential if I want to actually remember my goals, but also, it's very human to want to take note of things we think are important, so I think there's something great in giving the player the possibility to do it-in game!!
This is great! Thanks!
Add some question marks for unknown areas and when the player arrives in them reveal its name on screen and on map, Oh and add a mini map.
You don't mention a few things so I don't know how much you've thought about it already, but in very good metroidvanias, the world is a lot more than just some rooms, and the game is more than unlocking more rooms as you gain abilities. The best metroidvanias, like Metroid, Axiom Verge, etc. will lock you out of entire areas you've previously visited just to force you to stay in one designated area long enough to solve a certain puzzle (as opposed to thinking "oh I'm missing an ability from a previous area, let's go back"). The layout of rooms also tells a story and contributes to the lore of the game. The best metroidvanias will also subtly guide you towards progress. This was one of the major realization from Metroid Dread for example, the way you can have an intuition about where to go next. If you don't overthink, you'll naturally "flow" where the game wants you to go. In contrast I've played some bad metroidvanias in which I would reach a crossroad, without any hint as to which way to go next, pick one way, and only half an hour later realize "yeah no this is a dead-end, there wasn't any point in going this way. Where was that crossroad again?".
Yeah, you should definitely add tokens that you can spread around the mini map because I get lost a lot in games
I love the foreground objects, they absolutely made it for that room
Glad to hear it! :D
I love the foreground layers, they add so much depth!
1:12 what is the software used for blocking the base map? couldnt understand what you said, still nice video!
its called affinity designer.
So each area needs at minimal Unque building , unique scenery , unique npc. Hollow knight does this really well. Also like how bosses heads appear on mini map. Another thing i like from some games is a secret tracker. You could have it like metroid where if yoh beat the mini boss yoh unlock that portion of the map too. Else it is unknown area until you beat the boss 😊
3:44 looks bangin, really like the depth stuff
I quite like the foreground for the cactadila fight!
Honestly, I really like your idea of this game and also, keep up that good work!
Thanks, will do!
I think it could be fun if you can unlock map tockens as you explore. Where each area would have 1-3 tokens which you can collect
Maybe you could get tokens to place on the map by doing specific things ? kinda like achievements ? like killing 10 ennemies or sum
Imho, you don't need more than like AM2R: show unclollected secrets and unexplored passages and that's it. If all places you need are marked on the map, you don't need custom markers
Interested in seeing how you went about implementing room transitions
Always look forward to these updates!
Glad to hear it! These videos are a lot easier to make as I'm literally working on Dewdrop daily.
I believe parts of it were borrowed from the same Hollow Knight Concept but Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown has an absolutely fantastic minimap system that is really intuitive and easy to use. You may be able to draw some inspiration from there as well.
How do you Decide how rooms should be sized and arranged?
Trial and error. It all comes down to play testing.
I love the depth tests with the foreground and background elements. Very awesome.
Thank you! Cheers!
On the topic of Hollow Knight's map, I didn't realise you could place multiple of each pin until over 60 hours into the game. Probably just me though, it was the first time I'd encountered a mechanic like that in a video game.
I'd like to have some coloured to mark gates treasures etc. on the map.
And it would be cool to buy a sketched area-map with just hints here and there, I'd like to see it updated only after I've explored it.
Thanks for sharing!
Wow dude, this got me hella hyped. Man the new locations look STELLAR✨✨✨
Aww, thanks so much! :D
So me, the only real Metro Vania game I played was hollow knight. But there’s a stew things you can take from that game which I would say. Make sure you can like find the map. I think what I kinda wished for Hollyn knows that you walk around the map until you find the actual map to look around in the map so if you missed a couple of things you can look up your map and then you can go to those things once you found your pacific map in the map. It sounds weird but I’ll say it better. You go into the Pacific area and then when you find the map for that area, you can look through that map to see if you miss something in the Pacific area. I think that would be exciting because that’s what I wish for hollow knight. But honestly, I love what you’re doing with the game. I will definitely play it when it gets released and honestly it seems exciting.
hollow knight's map has a flaw in that you can't have icons or colours to differentiate markers which is a feature you should add
this is so random but instead of calling them Tokens or Markers like hollow knight does, you should call the map little marker things "Stickers"
I really love dark levels on a metroidvania. Only having limited lighting even for a first pass through is really fun. And where's all the pots and barrels for bashing?! I must break things!!
Hollow Knight's map system's main strength is core to the metroidvania genre as a whole: it recontextualises your environment..
Just like how a power-up can change how you interact with a room, HK's map changes how your environment feels. Most of HK is dark and threatening, so without map you're stumbling around in the dark. Buying the map gives you some guidance, but no more than a nudge on where to go next. It isn't until you've been to a place and familiarised yourself with the environment that the map reflects this.
However, this works as well as it does because of HK's atmosphere. Place the same system in a game that looks like a Mario game and you lose that impact. So consider if HK's map is the right tool for the job you want it to do.
I think if you have a boss in each area, defeating the boss or achieving some main goal in that area should THEN grant you a map
Congratulations on finally finishing the project!💪💪
Good zoom options for the mini-map, please! Appropriate max, min, zoom speed, and scroll speed.
Please have the option to snap to my position with a button. It should scroll smoothly across the map, giving me enough time to orient myself.
If there will be icons, they should be visible at all zoom levels without obscuring each other (too much, at least).
Thanks for reading!
Thanks for sharing!
Best of luck, the game looks great. I always found the request for wishlists rather strange though. Just because wishlists are correlated with sales doesn’t mean it helps asking people to wishlist. It’s like asking people to put on a baseball cap because you want them to become baseball players…
Played through Animal Well a few days ago, and I would not have been able to get as far as I did without the map markers
Definitely a good call
Here’s a proposal: you’re have to buy the minimap tokens, but once you’ve bought them, you are able to use them infinitely( or you buy a lot in bulk). That way, you still have to work to get the tokens, but it’s not so grindy once you’ve unlocked them.
I assure you there is still interest in the switch. I'm not trading in my totk oled anytime soon
Also the minimap could be a more zoomed in portion in the corner while you are playing but if you hold down a hotkey the whole map overlays the screen to check where you're ultimately aiming for in the level
Is your level system completely open or do you load between each area?
goodigs i have watched every dewdrop dynasty video keep it up we your fans love your videos!
That foreground layer looks good
I found that Animal Well's map system was nice to use and easy to navigate.
It’s interesting how my friend just told me about Animal Well today and a bunch of people are mentioning it. I definitely need to check it out.
Scope creep warning, I think the map you have is splendid and adding icons is super useful, but once you open up the buy tokens from the shop for your map, you will quickly see a lot of stuff popping up in your head, unless that is what you want, I suggest you build some limits on what does what and how and say nothing more...
I wish It came out some time soon !
what I loved about the hollow knight map is that I could _not_ buy the map markers. in my entire playthrough I never bought the markers, and I never used the charm that shows my location on the map
Dude, this has came a long way. Great stuff man!
Suggestion: You may add some levels which are top-view or isometric like RPG games.
I think the depth you were testing looked good
Thanks!
An interesting approach to level design.
(I'm new, yeah)
I would say for the map i need 2 things number 1 I need to know where I am in the world so i a point on the map to represent my location. Number 2 I need the map to change when I play to show any area I didn't visit already like GTA V map just shadow or something until you visit the area or zelda so I can keep tracking where do i need to go next beside this two anything else It will be a nice addition
Please release a translated version in pt BR when the game is released 😁(brazilian portuguese)
Every time one of these devlogs come out I need to drop everything
:D
I think instead of the mini map being super detail it should be more simple because i feel like detail mini map would make it look super cramped
Check out etrian odysey too for the map system. That game has a good approach to map building to create a sense of exploration. The game will track where you've been to help layout the space, but it's up to the player to mark things like treasure, doors and shortcuts etc.
The map is just an example... You just made this whole big map as an example!? 🤣👏🏽 The dedication (1:22)
Yeah! I really wanted to show the example. The real one is bigger and wayyyy more detailed.
@@Goodgis can't wait to see it for real!
Personally I enjoy the feeling of choosing and buying your own markers from HK so I would recommend that 👍
Yeah, it does feel nice!
Please add a time machine area where you can get a sword
I would love to see crossovers between dewdrop and fraymakers
That would be incredible!
In my recent review of animal well i criticize that the pencil is hidden behind a requirement. For me it was a big deal because i felt like i couldnt mark my map for points of interest which made me lose track of those places. Please make it easily accessible even if it is behind a buy system ❤️
That's good to know! Thanks!
SCREENSHOTS OF THE PLACE!!!
i believe one of the latest prince of persia did this, not sure which one
Yoo this game is good anyway this game is getting better every devlog!
Edit: How do you actually design this good Im jealous XD And whats the tool to deisgn some game design?
Mate Im loving the game so far, but I feel like the gun should match the bee theme.
This game looks really good good luck on it!
Really liked the foreground visuals
Thanks! :D
Man this game looks so good 👍 please port it to console so i can actually play it
:D
Time to explore Dynasty.
I like the foreground layers
Thanks so much!