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Loser Theology | Tim Keller & Russel Moore
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- Опубліковано 11 січ 2024
- "After preaching the gospel and slowly gaining converts among the Germanics, Boniface traveled to the great pagan shrine in Geismar in Hesse. There, at Donner's Oak, the pagan priests offered sacrifices to their demon god Donner, better known to us as Thor. It was believed that if anyone profaned Thor's Oak by touching it, the demon would strike that man down with a bolt of lightning from his hammer. Boniface reared back with his axe and took one single swing when a powerful wind came out of the heavens and blew the tree over. Astonished to see the impotence of their demon. God, everyone present forsook their paganism and was baptized into Jesus Christ."
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Here's one woman who 100% appreciates the way Joel preaches w authority. Its exactly why I listen to the podcasts of all three of these men. May their boldness help bring back strong preachers and churches, resulting in strong Christians and communities.. thank you all.
YES, we need to hear and learn the God who he is who was and who always will be the father the Almighty, powerful God, who created the heavens the Earth in everything within the omniscient, omnipotent omnipresent, all sovereign king of the universe. Who is the great I am we need to know him the God of the infallible in errant, holy inspired, living word, the truth, the authority we need to know God!
Not, a presumption or one verse explanation, we need God and he will make himself known to his children through his word and great preachers of his word!!
Thank you pastor Joel, thank you for the blessing that you are, that you have been called to be for God‘s children for his elect for his sheep to come home for his church to unite us together as one with our hands held high or our face in the ground in whatever we do, we glorify him and him alone thank YOU PRAISE BE TO THE HOLY ONE GOD Almighty!!!
Preaching with authority is fine, as long as the preacher is right (i.e., in accord with the Bible) about what he is authoritatively saying. Some, such as KJV-onlyists, provisionalists/Arminians, whiskey Calvinists, dispensationalists (to name a few off the top of my head), preach with authority, but are leading people astray.
@Naomi_OB, ah- so you’re a fixer. But what you really desire is a relationship with our Father in Heaven, but you seek it out in patriarchal authority figures. That’s not how it works though. These men impugn the nature of Heavenly Father by making a monster out of Him.
They would drop you like a hot potato if your husband stoped tithing to their church, asked too many "hard" questions, or didn't have a husband.
@@christianuniversalistthere's something here.... There's evil in these men degrading woman's rightful equal capacity to hold the mystery of the faith.
I am a woman and I LOVE your talks!
Amen. we need preaching that convicts us and challenges us
What a great discussion. The Western church really has largely adopted a "loser theology" for a long time now. We let the world dictate our terms while having a self-focused theology that is not long lasting and effeminate.
🔥🔥🔥 good crew and good chat. Real Christian Men for Da Win.
You men are right-Jesus told his disciples to “occupy” (or do the king’s business) until He comes. This word “occupy” has a militaristic connotation of holding ground/gaining ground for the crown rights of Jesus in a hostile enemy territory (in the parable, He has citizens that do not want Him to rule over them).
16:25 spot. If your Christianity doesn’t effect something as important as the way you educate/disciple your own children, and you’re essential doing that the same way the unsaved world is, something is wrong.
Although I disagree with these brothers reformed theology, they are spot on in this video! The Church in western culture has adopted a “tickle your ear” approach. Teaching on felt needs, entertainment. “Oh we can’t offend anyone”. The Gospel of Christ is offensive to the unbeliever but MUST be preached with boldness for it has the power to save! Men must protect and provide for their family. The Hollywood definition of love has taken root in the churches.
"The glory of God is a MAN FULLY ALIVE." Irenaeus (born c. 120/140, Asia Minor-died c. 200/203,
My cousins, siblings and I were all born during the Great Depression and War years. We were all farm kids and attended grade school from 1st through 8th. I still remember my first grade teacher Mrs. Kirkland. She was born in the 19th century and always started class with the Pledge of Allegiance and a prayer. We would recite "One nation, indivisible with liberty and justice for all."
The Pledge of Allegiance is an oath Jesus in Matthew 5 tells us not to do this
The idea that giant cathedrals aren’t directly related to spiritual formation bugs me. If a college building has an epic atrium nobody cares, even though it drives up tuition costs. A major hospital can have 5 absurdly large atriums in the same building and nobody says a word…even though it’s really impractical and expensive. Same for government buildings of all kinds, even though it cost more in taxes.
Then you take a Church, where Christians are mandated to gather and have community, and give it a lobby or fellowship space suitable for the congregation in all seasons and weather, and suddenly it’s a problem.
38:00 spot: as a teacher, I would much rather have a group of unregenerate students acting in a virtuous way, attempting to control their behavior (as hypocrites) as compared to them acting wildly, out of control, tearing the room down, cussing at me and hitting each other.
6:38ff. This discussion demolishes the Benedict option and the pietism of John Piper, all that nonsense, all the people who say it's unspiritual to be concerned about opposing the Left as they approach absolute power.
I have a friend who is theologically conservative, proudly Calvinist. He is opposed to homosexuality, but equally opposed to Christians speaking against homosexuality. He seems to think we should believe and personally practice the correct things about homosexuality but keep our mouths shut about it. He hates Trump and he loathes the Christian Right. He votes Libertarian in the presidential election. He's home-schooling his children because he recognizes that the public schools are communist, but he doesn't seem to see that there is every reason to expect the Democrats to come after homeschooling with both barrels once they consolidate their power. He doesn't seem to foresee that they can be expected to try to jail everybody who would not send their children to the gay/CRT schools.
He is smart but his ideas are not original, like most of our ideas are not original. His mind has been misled by garbage evangellyfish leaders like the ones mentioned in the video.
Sadly, your friend is a dime a dozen.
@@JW-tg1nn We know that we can't make homosexuality go away, but we certainly have an obligation to oppose making it something sacred and privileged in our society and having our school children indoctrinated in it.
The personality deficiencies of Trump are minor things in comparison to a whole political party full of people who want to censor and even jail those who they disagree with.
@@JW-tg1nn I strongly believe that it would be difficult for any set of halfway decent people not to be much much better than the Democrats. A party that has for decades militantly stood for the slaughter of unwanted children, a party that has elevated sexual perversions to the position of the most honored things of all, a party that favors overruling the wishes of parents to engage in Josef Mengele- type surgical and pharmaceutical experimentation on minors, a party that favors allowing free access to the country to sex traffickers, drug dealers, and other criminals as long as they are foreigners coming across our southern border, and the list could go on and on. The only way that anybody can think that the Republicans are in the same company with these wretches is to engage in extremely base slander. Why in the world should anybody think that today's Democrats are one scintilla better than the Nazis and the Bolsheviks?
@@JW-tg1nn the party did produce a better candidate in Ron DeSantis and I have been behind him all the way but I knew he didn't have a chance because he was not as well known to the to the masses as Trump. I'm not angry at the people who supported Trump over Desantis. I think they were mistaken but I understand in view of all the cowardice and defection that has been seen on the part of Republican politicians that they would stick with the guy that they know.
@@JW-tg1nn are you one of those people who believes that all sins are equal?
Amen brothers!
Coincidently Ayn Rand hits on many of these same themes in "Atlas Shrugged" albeit from a decidedly atheist perspective.
AMEN 🙏 PRAY!
Watched. A thumbs up from a pre-miller
bought 3 copies of Boniface Option for my oldest nephews.
You guys look like serious intellectuals at the beginning, one leg up on the knee....can't decide how winsome that appears, but great pod, gents. I'm close to Mordor up here outside Seattle, so looking at moving to the Shire has been tempting for a few years now.
Great discussion guys. So inspired by your godly commitment.
I find this interesting. I wonder how much is cultural. The Evangelicals down here in the South (especially rural South) tend to not be as emasculated, I guess, or it happened after I left Evangelicalism. I remember growing up and my father would take my brother and I on frequent Men's camping trips and hunting and fishing trips and skeet shooting, and he was in the biker group there, and we had summer classes where he taught us about fitness and exercise and another guy taught us Karate. Idk, maybe it happened later, but this was the late-90s, early-aughts, and it also might be a regional/cultural thing. Their current pastor is great, and he farms and homesteads. Maybe the Fighting Ulster Scotts don't play that feminised shite.
Edit: That being said, Dispensationalism was still a HUGE problem at that first church I mentioned, although not as bad in the new one. Idt their pastor preaches a rapture.
I just realized that if women accept the male position of leadership in the home and in the family, then men can fulfill their calling and women can also fulfill their biblical roles without sin.
You may want to read The Dorean Principle. I know AD has. He agreed with it. It would preclude you from time-gating your discipleship resources based on who pays you. There are folks who would support you financially without the "need" to charge folks for early access. Reciprocity is a no-go for ministry.
Saying that since Dispensationalism generated some not-so-good fruits, then Dispensationalism is bad, is it a legitimate way of judgment? Since Dispensationalism is a part of evangelical Christianity, should we conclude that evangelicalism or Chritianity is also bad? Or should we return to judging right and wrong by the Bible primarily?
Great conversation
Here is another who loves to listen to you - Maybe one of these days I will be able to translate some of it to Spanish.
Thank you
Great podcast. On the topic of “bastards” and “eunuchs” at 20:00 that was discussed, I was wondering how England having a leader who is Indian is somehow illustrative of lack of a heritage for blessing for Britain. I think that here in the US Vivek Ramaswamy will defend our historic constitution way better than someone like Joe Biden. Perhaps the guys can provide some clarification. Thanks.
The Amish have the right idea in a lot of ways. We need a Neo-Amish movement.
I giggle like a 4th grader every time I hear "trash world. " It's so true, though.
Rod Dreher looks like the kind of guy that would prefer withdrawing over fighting. It’s like he went to the glasses store and said, “Have you seen the movie Rambo? Give me the opposite look.”
#letADspeak 👊🏽
🎯 Haha. Yes!!
Where does the term “trash world” come from? I’ve heard it referenced many times but don’t know if it’s from a book or a podcast or what?
Joel would love to connect with you, I am apart of the Maker Institute of Studio + Theology. We will be at your conference March 1st. I think we have a role to play I this large conversation, in terms of building in a multi-generational way with great optimism in the Lord and how things will progress over the generations.
More certainty please!!
At the time of this comment the video is not out yet
But I really hope Joel knows that tim Keller was postmil
Tim Keller was Amil. Not Postmil.
all postmil is not the same
Donar..one of Santa's reindeer. Why are so many names that we grew up with from paganism and we had no idea.
Basically, be like the Amish and the Mennonites.
Could you please define what you mean by "pietism"? I am familiar with the term from a Lutheran context, but I can't understand what it has to do with this topic.
Pietism is a theology that doesn’t touch down in the real world. This tends to bifurcate the world into secular and sacred, as if reading your Bible and chunky theology books is more holy than walking out obedience in the nitty gritty of your life; as if ministry proper (pastor, missionary, etc.) is the only worthwhile occupation.
I think The Discomforter showed up in the chat under an alias.
It's Russell with two L's.
Almost all cathedrals have idols and images can you square that Joel?
Easy, Joel isn’t Roman Catholic... They are extremely idolatrous and their idolatry was a primary the reason for the reformation. You understand Joel is a reformed Baptist right?
@@HusGoose yes I know exactly where he is at theologically. I went to New Saint Andrew’s College myself. What I’m saying is there is a blind spot here. I just listened to Joel speak to an x orthodox priest and agreed 100 percent with the discussion there. Joel called out the Roman Catholic Church for 3D idolatry (statues) and the Eastern Orthodox Church for 2D idolatry (icons). Now in this discussion about playing the long game cathedrals are being used as a positive example of playing a good long game, a model for postmill vision of what future church buildings should be like. I’m not so sure about this. They were built with who’s money and who’s labor? Luther sure wasn’t impressed with what he saw in Rome. Also most such buildings were built full of idols. I think we need to be clear in such a discussion that the shapes and structures can be redeemed without bringing the images with them. But in discussions like these cathedrals and beautiful churches are too often used as positive examples of long term labouring for the gospel but these same buildings are full of idols. Makes sense?
@@macrofuture I get what you are saying. Thanks for clarifying. Yes this can be an area of concern. Should we be open to Christians excelling in art and architecture though? Should that be demonstrated in church buildings? I am cautious on pursuit of this subject along the same lines as the concerns you raised but am unsure if my trepidation is just being reactionary.
Its worse than loser-theology, it's the recapitulation and widespread acceptance of a more devastating strain of "Christian" liberalism.
TGC and CT are following almost an identical operation to what Spurgeon battled from the gate keeper academics in GB. The topics have been modified but the core arguments remain the same. In spite of the succession of great British preachers, Britain never recovered its mantle from the great downgrade. I pray the Lord will give us grace and courage to speak clear truth and at the same time change hearts en-masse.
I feel like AD is being left out in these conversations.
The Joel Webbonar
What book are they referring to?
The book they are talking about, primarily, is “The Boniface Option”, by Andrew Isker. They also mentioned Joel’s little book, “Fight by Flight”.
I agree with much of what you say, but you paint with too broad a brush.
At 36:10… but maybe just have his t-levels checked.
Rod Dreher is living in Hungary at this time……😑
Seems like some straw man arguments mixed with good material
Please not the" boy Jesus" maybe better would be the "GodMan" in adolescence!
John 13.35
All this blabber about loser theology completely misses the point. The correct question is, is it biblical theology?! Peter was rebuked by Jesus because he was too concerned about “winner” theology. Jesus was crucified in order to save us. If that’s loser theology - count me in!
count me in too
Ok boomer
@@juandoming6688 do you have any original thoughts or do you just regurgitate tired cliches?
And maybe that 20% of ‘women who PIPE IN’ would be greater if you didn’t seem so condescending. But as the Lord himself says, pray for your enemies.
I think that's just how the Irish speak. They were born to be ruled over by the Anglo-Saxon, as are most Celts.
I truly can't believe anyone can say they believe Timothy Keller is in heaven with any kind of certainty! Keller hated the church. Keller hated truth. He constantly apologized for the truth and twisted it till it became of nothing.
@@JW-tg1nn you must be joking. Has your head been in the sand for the last 40 years? Dis guy....
@@JW-tg1nn literally everything that Keller produced is bad fruit.
@@JW-tg1nn a bad tree cannot produce good fruit
@@JW-tg1nn nah, just quoting the Lord Jesus
@@JW-tg1nn consider his at the PCA version of James H Cone. Look him up and you'll see. Also, look into the "Engaging Keller" series that Jon Harris did in Conversations That Matter podcast and you'll find out that he was never really a true believer
Reconquista = Catholic.
4/10 no pipes to go with your frilly color scheme
How is the loser theology of a liberal like Tim Keller any different from the loser theology of a conservative like John MacArthur?
It's their view of Postmillennialism, coupled with Theonomy that is deceiving them.
Oh, and they're Partial Preterists as well.
So, lots of confusion within this group.
John MacArthur teaches the unbiblical view of Eschatology known as, Dispensational Futurism.
His "escapism" and "loser theology" is his teaching of a Pre-Trib. Rapture of the Church, which Dispensational Futurists temporally separate from the 2nd Advent (without any biblical warrant for doing so).
Futurism and Preterism are both infections of falsehoods in the Protestant/Evangelical Churches today.
They refuse to look to the Reformation for light concerning the End Times, Antichrist...etc.
I know what they taught, and they were right about the Antichrist.
Questions?
Let me know.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 EH no...pre mil was everywhere the majority of the 1900s and early 2000s. You're only now getting pushback because the rest of us said "well who specifically are the globalists?"
And you guys come up with a million excuses why we need to ignore that fact. We're christians not jews, yes Christ was a jew but clearly the vast majority of them are against all of us (you and me and everything in between) now and you want to just pretend that's not a problem. Or spout some nonsense about how no one can do a thing to Israel never mind they came crawling to us for their nation AFTER we bailed them out.
And how do they repay us? Biting the hand that feeds? Usury? Inflation? Anti Christian teachings? Anti Christian media? I feel like if that's the prophecy that might need to be mentioned "hey Goy the unbelieving Jew is gonna try to kill you but don't worry they're on the team".
@@ryangallmeier6647 did you really just make the case their belief in Gods law (theonomy) is “deceiving” them with a straight face. That is basic Christianity. Perhaps you have been unwittingly influenced by the post 1950’s wave of free-grace pietism and fooled into thinking it’s classic Protestant orthodoxy.
@@HusGoose key phrase, "THEIR view" of Theonomy.
Do they hold to the proper, biblical distinction of the 3-fold division of the Law?
Do they argue AGAINST the Westminster and 1689 Baptist Confessions concerning it?
These men are OUTSIDE Historic, Reformed Orthodoxy, not 'within it'.
It's their Partial Preterism coupled with Postmillennialism that is causing their confusion.
As I clearly stated, which you didn't even bother to address.
More questions?
Comments?
Let me know.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 They uphold both Westminster up to pedobaptism and are confessional 1689... They also regularly speak on the 3 fold distinction of the law. Are you familiar with their ministries?
If your concerns are about sacralism in the judiciary as an unintended consequence of theonomy in practice, that is a primary concern of mine as a historically knowledgeable 1689 confessional reformed Baptist.
TIM KELLER, YOU “SOUND” AND ‘LOOK” LIKE THE “ORIGINS OF WOKISM”. I NEVER KNEW YOU, OR LISTENED TO YOU.
Why does pornography get mentioned so often, and fornication almost never does?
Both are problems. The prevailing notion here and now in the west is the over-sexualizing and pornifying of everything. Its the secret lust that you do by yourself. What happens when you feed that? Obviously forincation and the other outreaches of Pornia
Fornication is just one external outreach of the sin.
However entire industries are focused on pornifying everything. Lust and the heart attitude towards that needs to change, and so does the dismantantling of this demonic and evil business.
Because men nowadays are more likely to use porn than have actual sex
📉⛪️💒📈 someone wins right you do see it?