Hi Samuel. I think the answer to your comment is to look at the pronouns you use. If we treat the local gathering of God's people as a place to serve us and for our enjoyment then I don't think we'll ever get to the point where we want to identify with God's people in the Biblical sense of fellowship which is sacrificial serving known as Koinonia. It takes the I and turns it into you or them. Philemon is a great commentary on this and Paul comments that Philemon was exemplary at this service.
I have read Philemon, in fact I have read it all. The Church is people, not a building, I have joined the Church, but I won’t become a member of a building because membership is pushed for tithe purposes and tithe to a brick and mortar place of worship is not necessary unless that’s where God wants you to give and help. Christianity is not a club or secret society and to require a membership to serve God through them is Extremely wrong.
@@Sammyj12991 Thanks Samuel for your reply. I'm glad that you read the Bible. The Bible absolutely says that the church is people and not a building. The local gathering of God's people is indeed a lovely and wonderful expression of all those believers worldwide and through time. What a privilege it is to be able to meet together and praise God together and to encourage each other together. Of course where I live we do this in a building to keep the rain off and heat in. Where I used to live there is a church which meets under a tree to keep the sun off. Tithing is among many things a way which God provides for God's work. If it has been your experience that there has been pressure on people to become members simply to pay for a buiding then of course this is an improper use of tithing and membership. Tithing is simply part of being a good steward of what God has entrusted us with. Where a church meets in a building there are costs involved and it is proper that they are met through those who make use of the building. Maybe if the church is in a position to employ a person to teach and preach fulltime then this person may need some sort of salary to eat and keep themselves warm. A good use of the things God has entrusted to his people is to pay this preacher/teacher. After all we shouldn't muzzle an ox. So although the tithe shouldn't be misued there is a legitimate use of it in buildings, or leaders, or feeding the poor, or providing for the ill, and many more purposes. I am perplexed by your comment that maybe we could tithe if we were going to serve God in a place for a time. Surely whatever we do we serve God wherever we are. I don't think that any church would seek somebody to become a member if they were not going to commit to the local church for a time. I have always sought membership in whichever church I have worshipped in and belonged to for a settled period of time as a sign of my commitment to God's people that I will stay and I will serve to the best of my ability that portion of God's kingdom. I think your issue is with the abuses of membership (and tithes) not the Biblical principles of them. I agree with you that when misused these are indeed terrible tools.
@Chris P I agree, at my church the elders and deacons do not know who gives or how much. We just preach that believers should give joyfully and sacrificially by their own conscience.
It is comforting to hear a church leader speaking on such a matter as discipline but I do not agree with a special membership. A person is either a Christian or not. Simple. If a person needs to be disciplined let him or her be disciplined. It hurts to see Church leaders who will allow 'mature' Christians living in known sin ..Some would tell you they are not allowed a ministry in the Church but at the same time they will tell you they are allowed to fellowship normally like other Christans . These Christians will go out there ,preach Jesus , evangelise as Christians are called to do , isn't this a ministry in itself? Isn't our life a ministry to the people out there? What message are we giving to the world? It is ok, you can go back to sin and still be part of a local congregation. And if you mention 1 Cor5 they will tell you, that was a particular occasion. Examples were written for our admonition as otherwise why would they even be mentioned. It really upsets me that these things are allowed in the churches.
Thanks Liz for this thoughtful answer and response. Its really helpful. After 3 years of wrestling with this issue as an elder in a local church context I found Hebrews 13:17 really helpful. I think that membership of a local church is often spoken of as a matter of who can the elders discipline, but if it is taken as a positive it makes more sense. An elder is a servant to the church, a shepherd. For a shepherd to look after the flock he needs to know which are his to look after in the first place. When the writer to the Hebrews says to "obey and submit to your leaders for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account.", then this assumes that the leaders/elders/shepherds have a recognizable local group of believers to serve, otherwise that means that the leaders are to give an account for all believers, everywhere. So, there needs to be a way that the elder/servant/shepherd, can identify those who they are to serve in a local church; or in other words a membership, a distinction between those who come occasionally, or those who like to split their loyalties between two churches, or a believer and an unbeliever. The idea of membership also makes clear the expectations that the local church has on those who wish to meet as a local representation of God's people. Discipline in not an easy one, and again I appreciate your comments very much. If a "mature" Christian, or to that matter any Christian is living in known, unrepentant sin, then scripture is very clear that they are to be treated as unbelievers Matt 18:17. That is not that they are given the silent treatment, to be avoided in the street, etc, but that they are to be taught as somebody who has not accepted Christ as Saviour, and so not included in the privileges of a believer, such as partaking in the Lord's supper. Logically as determining to go against God they preclude themselves from the church universal, and so also from the local church. They attend as if unbelievers. Where there is unrepentant sin which is overlooked and church leaders allow that person to continue as if there is nothing wrong then that is terrible. One of the results of unrepentant sin is that that person cannot take part in teaching, clearly, that would be harmful. In fact as part of discipline this person is to be put out of the church, out of the privileges of the local church. Which begs the question how is it possible to be excluded from the local church if you had never formally stated a desire to be in it in the first place, which is membership. The purpose of church discipline is that the person repents and comes back, and so I would be happy that the person comes to the local gathering of God's people on the Lord's day so he or she is under God's word and with God's people, and is encouraged with love to repent. I hope that's helpful. With every blessing in our Lord.
@@urblefurble I appreciate very much that you explained in such detail but I am not sure I understood. If I understood well , you are in agreement that the Church keeps to a membership. Referring to a formal membership right? I can understand that not all attend on a regular basis or as you said they split their loyalty between two churches so I guess in such cases a membership makes sense. Yet thinking about it, in such cases I guess an elder would approach the person to discuss their position. Wouldn't that help to make their position more clear? I am sorry maybe I am missing something here :) Re: discipline you seem to be in agreement that an unrepentant person should be treated according to 1 Cor 5 but then in the latter part I am not sure whether you were talking about the same situation of the person who should be put out of the church. As you said it would make you happy to attend and encouraged to repent ...sorry got confused , forgive me , maybe I am missing something.
Churches with Church Discipline are few and far between. Most now are the "Celebrity" Pastor type with the rock music entertainment.. Jesus is coming SOON! Can't talk with anyone in the world, can't talk sense with most "Christians".. ALL want to argue about what's not even an argument. How I pray that Jesus comes SOON.. The TRUE Body of Christ is more weary every day.
It depends on which church. Sadly there are such churches; but are they really churches? Are they really gatherings of God's people? Those who are called to support the widow and the fatherless? Sadly God's people are often tarred with the same brush. The true church of course does not value wealth above faithfulness to Christ.
Definitely not!
I won’t be a member of a church. I go to a brick and mortar place of worship and I enjoy it but it’s not a club.
Hi Samuel. I think the answer to your comment is to look at the pronouns you use. If we treat the local gathering of God's people as a place to serve us and for our enjoyment then I don't think we'll ever get to the point where we want to identify with God's people in the Biblical sense of fellowship which is sacrificial serving known as Koinonia. It takes the I and turns it into you or them. Philemon is a great commentary on this and Paul comments that Philemon was exemplary at this service.
I have read Philemon, in fact I have read it all. The Church is people, not a building, I have joined the Church, but I won’t become a member of a building because membership is pushed for tithe purposes and tithe to a brick and mortar place of worship is not necessary unless that’s where God wants you to give and help. Christianity is not a club or secret society and to require a membership to serve God through them is Extremely wrong.
@@Sammyj12991 Thanks Samuel for your reply. I'm glad that you read the Bible. The Bible absolutely says that the church is people and not a building. The local gathering of God's people is indeed a lovely and wonderful expression of all those believers worldwide and through time. What a privilege it is to be able to meet together and praise God together and to encourage each other together. Of course where I live we do this in a building to keep the rain off and heat in. Where I used to live there is a church which meets under a tree to keep the sun off. Tithing is among many things a way which God provides for God's work. If it has been your experience that there has been pressure on people to become members simply to pay for a buiding then of course this is an improper use of tithing and membership. Tithing is simply part of being a good steward of what God has entrusted us with. Where a church meets in a building there are costs involved and it is proper that they are met through those who make use of the building. Maybe if the church is in a position to employ a person to teach and preach fulltime then this person may need some sort of salary to eat and keep themselves warm. A good use of the things God has entrusted to his people is to pay this preacher/teacher. After all we shouldn't muzzle an ox. So although the tithe shouldn't be misued there is a legitimate use of it in buildings, or leaders, or feeding the poor, or providing for the ill, and many more purposes. I am perplexed by your comment that maybe we could tithe if we were going to serve God in a place for a time. Surely whatever we do we serve God wherever we are. I don't think that any church would seek somebody to become a member if they were not going to commit to the local church for a time. I have always sought membership in whichever church I have worshipped in and belonged to for a settled period of time as a sign of my commitment to God's people that I will stay and I will serve to the best of my ability that portion of God's kingdom. I think your issue is with the abuses of membership (and tithes) not the Biblical principles of them. I agree with you that when misused these are indeed terrible tools.
What about a church that requires monetary giving to maintain a membership?
@Chris P I agree, at my church the elders and deacons do not know who gives or how much. We just preach that believers should give joyfully and sacrificially by their own conscience.
It is comforting to hear a church leader speaking on such a matter as discipline but I do not agree with a special membership. A person is either a Christian or not. Simple. If a person needs to be disciplined let him or her be disciplined.
It hurts to see Church leaders who will allow 'mature' Christians living in known sin ..Some would tell you they are not allowed a ministry in the Church but at the same time they will tell you they are allowed to fellowship normally like other Christans .
These Christians will go out there ,preach Jesus , evangelise as Christians are called to do , isn't this a ministry in itself?
Isn't our life a ministry to the people out there?
What message are we giving to the world? It is ok, you can go back to sin and still be part of a local congregation.
And if you mention 1 Cor5 they will tell you, that was a particular occasion.
Examples were written for our admonition as otherwise why would they even be mentioned.
It really upsets me that these things are allowed in the churches.
Thanks Liz for this thoughtful answer and response. Its really helpful. After 3 years of wrestling with this issue as an elder in a local church context I found Hebrews 13:17 really helpful. I think that membership of a local church is often spoken of as a matter of who can the elders discipline, but if it is taken as a positive it makes more sense. An elder is a servant to the church, a shepherd. For a shepherd to look after the flock he needs to know which are his to look after in the first place. When the writer to the Hebrews says to "obey and submit to your leaders for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account.", then this assumes that the leaders/elders/shepherds have a recognizable local group of believers to serve, otherwise that means that the leaders are to give an account for all believers, everywhere. So, there needs to be a way that the elder/servant/shepherd, can identify those who they are to serve in a local church; or in other words a membership, a distinction between those who come occasionally, or those who like to split their loyalties between two churches, or a believer and an unbeliever. The idea of membership also makes clear the expectations that the local church has on those who wish to meet as a local representation of God's people.
Discipline in not an easy one, and again I appreciate your comments very much. If a "mature" Christian, or to that matter any Christian is living in known, unrepentant sin, then scripture is very clear that they are to be treated as unbelievers Matt 18:17. That is not that they are given the silent treatment, to be avoided in the street, etc, but that they are to be taught as somebody who has not accepted Christ as Saviour, and so not included in the privileges of a believer, such as partaking in the Lord's supper. Logically as determining to go against God they preclude themselves from the church universal, and so also from the local church. They attend as if unbelievers. Where there is unrepentant sin which is overlooked and church leaders allow that person to continue as if there is nothing wrong then that is terrible. One of the results of unrepentant sin is that that person cannot take part in teaching, clearly, that would be harmful. In fact as part of discipline this person is to be put out of the church, out of the privileges of the local church. Which begs the question how is it possible to be excluded from the local church if you had never formally stated a desire to be in it in the first place, which is membership. The purpose of church discipline is that the person repents and comes back, and so I would be happy that the person comes to the local gathering of God's people on the Lord's day so he or she is under God's word and with God's people, and is encouraged with love to repent.
I hope that's helpful. With every blessing in our Lord.
@@urblefurble I appreciate very much that you explained in such detail but I am not sure I understood.
If I understood well , you are in agreement that the Church keeps to a membership. Referring to a formal membership right?
I can understand that not all attend on a regular basis or as you said they split their loyalty between two churches so I guess in such cases a membership makes sense.
Yet thinking about it, in such cases I guess an elder would approach the person to discuss their position. Wouldn't that help to make their position more clear?
I am sorry maybe I am missing something here :)
Re: discipline you seem to be in agreement that an unrepentant person should be treated according to 1 Cor 5 but then in the latter part I am not sure whether you were talking about the same situation of the person who should be put out of the church. As you said it would make you happy to attend and encouraged to repent ...sorry got confused , forgive me , maybe I am missing something.
Churches with Church Discipline are few and far between. Most now are the "Celebrity" Pastor type with the rock music entertainment.. Jesus is coming SOON! Can't talk with anyone in the world, can't talk sense with most "Christians".. ALL want to argue about what's not even an argument. How I pray that Jesus comes SOON.. The TRUE Body of Christ is more weary every day.
I agree with what you said here. Discipline is tantamount in every area including Church.
Biblical discipline not for their own selfish stand.
Is church membership necessary for salvation?
Imo...The Church collects the money more than collects the soul
+RED Ruby -- Not all of them, and generalizing is wrong,
It depends on which church. Sadly there are such churches; but are they really churches? Are they really gatherings of God's people? Those who are called to support the widow and the fatherless? Sadly God's people are often tarred with the same brush. The true church of course does not value wealth above faithfulness to Christ.