OMG! I have never heard about this happening in groups until recently when my grand-daughter and her group of about 6 or 7 friends have all decided they are trans, gay or somewhere in between. These girls are all about 14 years old and go to the same school and share classes at the same very small school. They are cutting themselves but not enough to hurt themselves and talk about suicide together and they try to one-up each other, unfortunately. My daughter reads the texts between these girls to try to keep an eye on this issue and they call each other by boys names and call one another dad and brothers. I couldn't type this fast enough when I heard your guest talk about this. I am sitting here on the edge of my seat and my heart is pounding. I have never even thought about this being hysteria or something like that, almost like group think. Some of the girl's parents have talked about this but they are all just kind of confused and going it on their own. This subject is fascinating. This has helped me so much just hearing about it and the advice she gave sounds good. I just wish I could talk to Lisa Marchiano. I need more help with this. I really appreciate you having her on. So timely in my life and for my needs at this time.
Very glad to be of use D C. Looking up “rapid onset gender dysphoria” will get you to more resources. Also see my interviews with the girls at piqueresproject.com, who have gone through something similar themselves. (Numbers 2 and 8 in this playlist) ua-cam.com/play/PLRdayXEOwuMH3f0pmZqVQUU62rgJIzvt9.html
Are you from Seattle by chance? Do they go to Nova Alternative school? Of course don't answer that for privacy. I had a friend whose kid now early twenties went thru that. That being gender fluid\ gay bi\trans. Now hetero female with live in boyfriend
I'm so grateful to see these conversations emerging more. Thank you for putting this out there. I'm 34 and my gender conflict arose quickly during puberty. I'm so, so glad that I did not grow up during this time because I definitely would have done something extreme. In the late 1990s, the trans community wasn't as in your face as it is today. So my home was radical feminism. I saw women as weak and pathetic. If they were mothers or expressed feminine traits, they couldn't be taken seriously nor were they fighting the good fight. (In retrospect, I realize it was actually radical feminism that created those ideas in me. That I needed to have masculine traits in order to be respected in this world.) It took me until about 32 to delve into the deeper aspects of my journey of self acceptance. I already did some ground work in my teens after a stint of hiding my developing body in baggy masculine clothes as I went through puberty. Looking at and understanding our biological reality as a duality, male and female, is crucial. We need to understand our roots as humans, as animals. I think we forget how deep our biological instincts run and the purpose of them and how they fit together. Those instincts have been a part of our survival for thousands of years which in turn has influenced the way our societies have been set up for thousands of years. To think that social reprogramming can change thousands of years of genetic coding for survival, I think is quite naive. Biological male and female are the bodies we reside in and they will hormonally influence us throughout our lives. But it doesn't mean we have to fit into stereotypical gender traits in order to except that we are born into male or female bodies. Nor should be shunning or demonizing them because they all have a purpose in our survival as a species. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that the progressive community believes that it's only acceptable for feminine traits to be expressed through men and masculine traits to be expressed through women. I have quite a few masculine traits but that doesn't make me a man. This is messing with people's lives 😡 and sending them down false paths because no one is celebrating the genders as they are traditionally, or rather, biologically. Shit, most of us don't even understand our biological nature! Again we don't need to force ourselves to be in these roles but demonizing them is destroying us and causing immense amount of suffering. We need to accept and love the reality of what we are and from there, we can grow and merge that into the individuals we really are.
Why do people keep making the mistake of thinking hospitals will have completely lost their ability to self-control their treatment mechanisms? Were you happy you didn't go to the doctor when your knee hurt after hearing that so many people had their lower leg amputated? Because that's what you are saying by using the argument "I'm so glad I didn't have the opportunity to do something growing up now".
@@Dutch3DMaster I would be cautious about going to a doctor with a history of amputating the legs of patients reporting knee pain:) As a practitioner from the medical community and supportive of "traditional medical treatment", I can admit that sometimes good care is not provided to patients. Sometimes that care is harmful. We can look over the history of medical (and mental health, for that matter) treatments and see, in hindsight, how some practices were terrible and wrongheaded, despite being accepted at the time, despite the often good intentions by practitioners. In regards to medical and mental health treatment for gender dysphoria, particularly late/adolescent onset, this is a relatively new field of practice with an extraordinary increase in patient numbers. The research remains preliminary and limited in experimental design and scope. We lack long term outcome data. We lack research and understanding in regards to patients who are unhappy with their treatment, who abandon treatment. Despite published treatment guidelines, in actual practice we see significant variability in care provided for gender dysphoric patients. To put it simply, we in the medical and behavioral health community have much to learn, but many are reluctant to acknowledge this.
@@QHarbin And you completely missed my point. The reason I used that batshit crazy example of doctors completely exaggerating their response is because so many people like to claim that the intake at a gender clinic is a forced, non-reversible decision and that the doctors there happily will push anyone into a hormone treatment program even if they don't belong there. The fact that such a clear example went completely over your head speaks volumes, along with some of the other simply wrong information that you have in your reply. "particularly late/adolescent onset, this is a relatively new field of practice with an extraordinary increase in patient numbers."
@@Dutch3DMaster I understood that you were overstating your point- hence, the smile. I'm glad if you are ultimately happy with your care- sounds like you have been through the wringer. I am also glad that Nicole seems happy with her life path. I don't think that Nicole was implying that that gender affirmative treatment "forces" people to pursue treatment. She's saying that she would have elected to pursue gender transition if it had been available at the time. Decades later, she is happy as a cis woman. Fair enough- only she can say. (Although I am curious about the radical feminists she followed since they sound outright misogynistic) Each of you has a valid perspective on processing gender and its personal meaning in your life- after all, each of you ultimately feels happy and fulfilled, hopefully. When one chooses and prefers a different approach, that does not invalidate the decision- making of the other. As a patient receiving care, it's also understandable that you should be focused on your own treatment and not have the same concerns about the field of gender treatment and how it is understood or conducted in hospitals, clinics, and offices throughout the country. That's OK- that falls under my jurisdiction and other practitioners like me. Hopefully that doesn't frighten you! Time to get back to my work- but best of luck.
Oh man..... Who the hell am I? How much have I picked up and never put down? How much of my thoughts are my own? This has been my latest life pondering. At 30 years old... Who the hell am I? What do I believe? Internalized misogyny was me as a teen. Always wanted to be not like girls around me. Still I judge other women harshly and try to set myself apart. That was a huge struggle as a teen. What are we worshipping? Perfection. Stimulating interview, I really enjoyed it. She's wonderful.
Such a good discussion. Can I just say that I’ve worked closely with one of the key gender clinics in the world and so am not new to this area of psychology or medicine, but honestly even these services could benefit from these videos. These conversations you’ve been having are immensely useful - exactly what’s needed at this point. I do hope you keep them up while you’re still interested. Keep up the good work
Thank you so much for taking your time and making such a valuable contribution! As a mother whose daughter came out as trans out of the blue I tried to figure that out and find information and got more and more frustrated on the way... Her first female cousin came out three years ago, the next cousin one year later and a classmate last year...isn´t it understandable and allowed to have second thoughts at the least... but when I started my research I was only told to be affirmative... if you don´t go along you´re bad... that´s depressing.. The world is colourful and there should be room for everyone and I understand that there are people whose only option is to change their gender identity! But I doubt that it´s the one and only way for everyone... And then I found your very empathetic, open-minded and highly informative talk! More than anything else (apart from many valuable thoughts) you gave me some relief and confidence back! As Lisa has faith in the parents´ instincts and their own insights of the personal situation. Of course professionals are an important factor to navigate through a difficult process but you gave me the feeling that the parents are experts in some way as well... although one feels helpless and desperate sometimes we should trust our instincts again... giving our children some space and unconditional love can´t be wrong as well. There can´t be a quick solution - it´s a process/a development which needs time... and you soothed the urge to make decisions head over heels. Hope to find a therapist with such a comprehensive approach here in Germany as well. And Benjamin, thank you so much for taking your time speaking to so many people about this topic (I will be busy for some time listening to a lot more of your interviews), that you care and try to help (which you do!) asking essential and smart questions in a perceptive way!
I am enjoying the interview but I had to stop to write this when you mentioned the hero's journey and whether there's such a thing as the heroine's journey. Something Alfvoid mentioned about agency vs Hypoagency struck me. Agency vs Hypoagency 1. Call to adventure vs Call to improvement 2. Supernatural Aid vs Supernatural Immunity -Power- 3. Threshold Guardian vs Approval 4. Helper vs Sacrifices 5. Mentor vs Influencer 6. Challenges vs Public Disinterest 7. Abyss (death)/revelation (life) vs loss of approval 8. Transformation vs New Reputation 9. Atonement vs Confession 10. Gift of the Goddess vs Gift of the God 11 Return vs Return. Essentially "mean girls" is the definitive heroine's journey when interpreted from the Hypoagency perspective.
I grew up in the United Church of Christ which was progressive and liberal. And I discovered Campbell and Jung in highschool and was already deeply fascinated by evolutionary biology and Big Bang astrophysics. I never officially went back to the church even though it is one of the most liberal and progressive religions in the USA. So Jung and Campbell was more of a guide. However I think there could be a new return to religion that is refreshed by people who went through personal transformations. One of the core ideas I find in the Bible which matches the Psychoanalytic and Jungian ideas is: 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. - Matthew 7:1-5 KJV (Matthew 7:1-5 other versions) This is the very thing lost by the socially progressive left (SJW) activists. And something that needs to be reborn in the culture in a refreshed way, that is honest, not manipulative that bridges past cultural and political barriers. Essentially I read it as a reclaiming of projections. That if we are doing our own work we will transform the world rather than forcing everyone else to conform to our world view. The very nature of this "taking back projections" is also very counter to our new outrage culture.
I found that discussion fascinating. I am from a little Mediterranean country, but for some reason I am really interested in the american society and all those new political tendencies and emerging narratives. I have to say I have reached many of the same conclusions that you two have about what the underlying factors for this new trans-craze in the U.S. and Canada (mailny) are, but also about the resurfacing puritanism of the new progressives, the guilt that's mixed with elitism etc. I will definitely look up for more content from both of you. You also made me curious about Jung. I have read a few Freud's books but I never moved to Jung. I'll do it now. Thank you both for this video, I hope we see more from you.
If you (Ben) wonder what short clips you should make and post (it's so time-consuming to go through the videos to find the highlights!) -- well, the whole discussion of religion that starts with Jung's ideas about religious instinct, from about 50:00 to about 1:02:00, should be one! I completely agree with what she says Jung says -- the need for transcendence is so obviously a major force in the collective human psyche, and then her own ideas about how to know if you are worshipping something healthy or not. That whole section is brilliant and no one is saying these important things. "The drug of fundamentalism" and the addiction to the high of outrage, that needs to be continuously increased to get the high, is a subject that could be explored much more. This is the kind of thing that may make your channel one of the most important on UA-cam.
Several years ago I fell off a roof and suffered ROGD (Rapid Onset Gravitational Dysphoria), for a brief time. Then I hit the ground and suffered ROPD (Rapid Onset Pain Dysphoria). Upon discovering I was uninjured, I transitioned to ROLD (Rapid Onset Laughing Dysphoria), for a few minutes. Then I detransitioned back to my normal state of mind, said "Fuck it", and climbed back up the ladder to finish cleaning the gutters..
LOL. When I was 10 I had a "royalty dysphoria" because I thought I was a princess stuck in a body of a typical schoolgirl (and in the Soviet Union of all places). I blamed my parents for not being of royal blood. I identified with Mary Queen of Scots (but obviously expecting a different ending). We played in royalty with other girls, putting old dresses of our mothers and writing each other letters copied from 19th century historical novels. A friend of mine "identified" as Elisabeth I. Then at 15, I had "opera dysphoria" thinking I had enough talent to become an opera singer even if everyone told me I didn't. Then I grew up.
36:45 what a wonderful question asking about female mythology. I grew up in a house where my father taught me that women had a different strengths from Men, that it was respected and women were never to be trifled with or underestimated. I was told numerous Tales of amazing women and the things they did. As far as mythological, I just rediscovered the story The Snow Queen by Hans Christian. Anderson.
This was just written by Zizek: "The Freudian solution is here rather simple: yes, psychic sexual identity is a choice, not a biological fact, but it is not a conscious choice that the subject can playfully repeat and transform. It is an unconscious choice which precedes subjective constitution and which is, as such, formative of subjectivity, which means that the change of this choice entails the radical transformation of the bearer of the choice." health.spectator.co.uk/transgender-dogma-is-naive-and-incompatible-with-freud/ There are a lot of Freudians and Jungians dealing with these issues with the frame of psychological phenomenology. In real life we already have several historical figures. Like David Bowie, who came out as gay, then a cross dresser, then bisexual, and then straight. Overtime his sense of self shifted. But those shifts do not cancel out the fact that he had these previous marginal identities. The medical community needs to understand that identities are not written in stone. And that radical decisions like gender reassignment should be applied conservatively.
Perhaps but until the last decade or so, these kids weren't being stalked by other kids and adult activists on social media like tumblr and instagram, encourage to defy, hate and even leave their parents and others, lied to about informed consent (a blatant misnomer in this case), encouraged and pushed into cross-sex hormones, encouraged and pushed into cutting off perfectly healthy body parts --- all under the guise that those things would solve their problems and they could be someone they can never be.
This is true, unfortunately previous fads didn't have long term consequences such as sterility, unable to ever enjoy sex, and who knows what other health risks. Kind of ironic - people watch Farinelli movie or listen to Moreschi recordings and say how castrating boys for their voices was barbaric and child abuse without realizing that a similar thing is happening now because some boys think they are girls. @R M - some parents today seem to encourage it when they talk about transitioning 5-year olds.
R M - I wish I am wrong too. At times like this I am glad I am no longer young (in my late 50s) and even that I don't have kids (and I wanted to back when I was young). At least I'd not have a grandkid telling he/she is "born in the wrong body." I do feel for parents who are faced with that (except for those who actively encourage e.g. because someone always wanted a girl or whatever.) I hope this nonsense ends in my lifetime.
Psychiatrists always hand out the newest disorder like it’s candy. Remember ADHD? Yeah. This time it just also includes surgery. Also the ‘eyes of death’ story was pretty cool, I can roll with that lol
One of the most interesting conversations I’ve heard in awhile and great questions as always Ben. Also maybe the first time you have ever said something I strongly disagree with!
re: the risk of error in fields that are "studies" rather than SCIENCE. James Lindsay and Bogosian just had a fabulous discussion with Rogan on the this problem. These fields treat knowledge like faith. As a person of faith, to the question "why" would answer because "this" and point to Deutoronomy, the same happens in the non scientific "sciences". To the question of "why", the person answers "this" and points to Jung. Whereas in SCIENCE, to the question "why" one does not point to an opinion answer, but to a mechanical answer, one coming from an experimental process, with a structured methodology to remove all (most) subjectivity. So yes, soft sciences are absolutely more prone to fads. But harder sciences are not free of error, they are just less frequent. And also consider, the soft fields of "knowledge" (I prefer perceived knowledge) have existed forever (all fields where studied by the religious), whereas hard science, the scientific method, was only achieved (and still only partially, people prefer perceived knowledge, over the difficult process of testing for knowledge) for just over a century. But yes, scientism has caused mayhem too.
34:00 Surely the historic oppression of women isn’t an outlandish partial explanation for the preponderance of social hysteria among young women, especially where restrictions on them have been acute. When your future, your relationships, your speech, your education, your movement, and your body are severely circumscribed, some hysteric symptoms seem like a means of self-expression that depending on the era could be safer and more socially acceptable than the kinds of freedoms most women enjoy in the West today. If the evidence is there. When I was a teenager, I read something about how court women in both ancient Korea and Heian Period Japan used “possession”-which usually required the intervention of a “shaman” in a trance-as a method of expressing themselves and voicing objections to a given situation. But don’t quote me on that! Not sure about the meowing French nuns though. (PS another great interview! Thank you so much for creating this series! I’m learning so much. Some of it is horrifying, but at least I know.)
As the sea churned around him, Captain Boyce clung to the rail and scanned the horizon. There! Far to port, like a longtime TERF expelling a vape, the beast broke the surface with a roar. The salt air went foul. Bananas, leather, long-digested cabbage - the smell was overwhelming. Even as he fought to focus, the memory of that terrible night with Meghan Murphy came unbidden. Boyce forced it back and called an order to his crew. We're going to need a trigger float! Fire when ready! The trigger float started whining the moment the tarp came off. "Trans wammin ARE wammin!" Splashing above the roiling third wave as the beast turned towards they/their/them, the float screamed incoherently. "Kill all men!" Good thing trigger floats are cheap and expendable, thought Boyce, as he tightened his grip on the lampoon. The beast lumbered into range as the trigger float's neon head disappeared into her maw. It was all down to Boyce, now. The lives of all his men hung in the balance. He raised the lampoon. Steady...steady...
at 1:01:38 - yes end all tribalism...we each have to own our selves, not project our evil onto anything or one, take responsibility for everything we do...everything....
My parents would be the ones sayin I've never shown signs of dysphoria, even tho they knew I was a tomboy as a child and only started to act super feminine when I got into an all-female religious school and I tried extremely hard to be cool. They knew I started crossdressing whenever I had time alone and struggled for over 10 years with my identity behind a hyper-feminine mask. They caught me from time to time, staying up at night, stapping down my chest, chatting with people, trying to express my identity trough insane amounts of drawings etc. I have a distinct memory of my maybe 13 yo self standing in front of a mirror naked and repeating to myself that "a genitalia can't stop someone from being happy". As I got older (15-17) I always told everyone that I will transition when I get old so I can live my life as a man because I could never imagine myself being a woman, but I was so set on not adressing my feelings I always overcompensated and turned to being an oversexualized go-getter kinda girl. I remember trough out my teenage years, when dysphoria got really bad I went on (unrelated) forums, wrote down my experiences and people would suggest that I might be transsexual but I just refused to even think about that idea because that was something "taboo". The time I started to become concious about my dysphoria is when (around 2015, didn't know anything about the lgbt movements yet) I forced myself to face this thing that was taking up all my time by trying to cope with it. I did do research and I did have a "realization". I came out at the age of 19 back in 2016 because I felt "empowered" by all the sudden trans acceptance that I've seen on the internet. I've never participated in trans subcultures, no tumblr, I've only been part of a facebook group that I left after a month because I didn't want them to influence me and the ridiculousness, hysteria and fundamentalism really bothered me. I never had lgbt friends, I'm from a moderately conservative country. This whole ROGD thing is really bothering me right now because even tho I have been struggling my whole life I just can't help but think about the "what if", my impostor syndrome is in full force, and that just adds another layer to the struggle... I'm pretty lost but at least I'm not on HRT yet...
Forgot to add when I came out my parents accused me of being "beainwashed by media" and they disregarded all my experiences and used really degradory ways to express their distaste. Do not do that to your child, please. Talk to them and be respectful about it and help them trough the depression and anxiety first that comes with dysphoria, rapid onset or not.
Good to hear from a Psychologist looking at a bigger picture and recognising trends. Best, sensible discussion I heard. The Trans civil rights agenda is crushing reasoned discussion. Wish I could find a local Psych with the same questioning approach. Affirmation all the time... so frustrating! Yes, I find myself in hospital waiting areas, looking at parents with skeletal anorexic teenagers and envying that at least they will get real help from psych and medical. Awful, I know.
40:40 "eating disorders are... that is some scary shit i mean eating disorders have the highest mortality rate of any mental health issue, if i'm not mistaken... or or or its up there" good thing you brought this person on to consult her knowledge on psychology for an hour
I wonder about social contagions manifesting in men historically? Plenty of historical record of religious asceticism and self-torture. It feels similar in structure to me to the self-harm practices also associated with teen girls these days. Cutting, burning, body modifications, eating disorders etc
Right when you and Marchiano started talking about the Calvinism and puritanism of intersectionality, I wished you had had a chance to get into the notion that it has of "harm," because that's something that's bugged me for years. What I notice is that this movement has this notion where you can't know whether you're harming one of the "oppressed." Only *they* can know. It gets into another instance of "listen and believe." In fact, that's what Marchiano was talking about with the "therapy" for ROGD, though in that case, the "oppressor" is the person's own body. It gives progressives this constant "out" where they don't have to take responsibility for their own distress. This is going to sound weird from here on, but bear with me. As long as there is some "oppressor" they can blame for their distress, they can offload responsibility onto them (or, in the case of ROGD, "it", the body), because they/it can't know what they/it are/is doing that's harming others. They/it have/has to be told, or in the case of the body, modified. As long as that is the case, they/it are/is always put in the position of "guilty until proven innocent," because there is no objective standard by which they/it can say, "Okay, this person is experiencing some distress, but I'm not responsible for it." If I may make a request, I'd like to see an exploration of what causes this mindset, what the danger of it is (some of which I've already covered here), and get into notions of how society draws the line between when someone or something *is* causing harm, and when it is not, if you haven't covered it already. I think this has a lot of importance, because while it gives progressives an "out" for taking responsibility for their own distress, it also gives them an "in" for changing social and administrative rules at will, where the opposition is given no quarter, no chance to challenge when harm is created. They are given carte blanche that they don't deserve, and I think you and I agree that this in fact leads to harm against the enlightened society we would like to see.
Interesting about, "maybe we were made to worship." A traditional belief might agree with that and add, "perhaps that is the root of world health or dysfunction."
at 41:00 so true...I was bullied by my daughter with miss leading suicide statistics and much worse to do whatever she wanted, new name, new pronouns, testosterone, surgery. It's heartbreaking...:``-(
43:40 "this kid never had issue with gender until last week when she spent a week staring at youtube transition videos" do you guys think itd be weird if someone based their view on trans people from a video on youtube?
Monty Python had a famous sketch called the Philosopher's Song: ua-cam.com/video/l9SqQNgDrgg/v-deo.html Does Benjamin have a similar song in his upcoming musical about psychologists? Rather than drink one could make the theme gender dysphoria, sex-change, or kinks.
I would really like to see the statistics and sources for this supposed phenomenon, as it seems more like sensationalism and knee jerk reactions to me. According to my research only 1 in 12000 people in the US seek any medical or surgical treatment for gender dysphoria. Put this into perspective 1% of the population is Autistic, this has also increased dramatically in the last 10 years because of increased diagnosis, changes of definitions (aspergers being included now for example). 1-3% of the population is psychopathic, same goes for pedophilia. I’m not equating these things, but if you put that in perspective or human crisis the percentage of people seeking gender related treatment is tiny and a lot less damaging to society, i just wonder why it has been so piled up on as an issue. I think its just moral conservatism and i think it also infantilises girls (so much of the debate has been anxiety about girls , no one is worried about boys doing this).
Around 35:00, when you talk about internalized misogyny and women getting the short end of the stick historically, it occurred to me that you and Cassie Jaye of theredpillmovie.com could have a fascinating conversation about these issues. You both bring uncommon kindnessness, openness, and genuine curiosity to interviews and I'd love to see what would come if you put your heads together.
Sapolsky has a few ideas on the biological underpinnings that tend to religious thinking. He even explains that schizophrenia as a recessive trait continues because it serves a positive function, at least, in small wandering tribes. I am left to wonder after listening to this very satisfying discussion whether adolescent female suggestibility might also, in our collective preagricultural existence, have served as a social benefit.
It might make more sense in a tribal society. Maybe they would normally soak up more info from more ages above them rather than getting into feedback loops with same age girls in post industrial revolution schooling systems
around 58:32 they begin discussing (loosely) the differences in the world's religions and if we register ONE as THE TRUTH, how do we not exclude or "demean" other religions as "not the truth".... point in fact, NOT ALL RELIGIONS CAN BE TRUE. They are by their inherent nature, exclusive to the others as holding the possibility of being true. They are NOT all leading to the same end, for instance, not all religions/practices reference an afterlife, or "sin", or "good" or "evil".... this may be a little ridiculous, but comparative studies of religions through history will naturally reveal what is "true" to each "seeker"....and it will nearly always reflect the current or homeostatic position of the seeker. I enjoy Jung, but there's no way he could've made a resolution on this. Each seeker must delve DEEP into the potential structure of belief he or she would align with, then find opposing arguments as to why it couldn't be possible, OR they simply go with it and ignore opposition.
1:02:40 I thought the whole concept of “privilege” was all about examining yourself and the privileges you have over others, how these intersect, etc. Something I almost never see people on the right doing. Having said that, I can see how it goes wrong, where people on the left rip each other apart because any disagreement becomes “You’re not allowed to speak about x topic, because you have y privilege” 1:03:24 ah I see you touch on some of this here
If you go a spiritual way, you don't necessarily automatically feel better as she said (that was her guideline). That's nonsense. When you go towards the light you also can experience very dark moments, because guess what where there's light there's also a shadow as long as you really haven't solved all of your issues and the ones of this earth. Light and a higher energy can cause traumas to come to the surface and when you aren't prepared or have someone wise and highly professional person around to help you it CAN have negative ramifications. Also - I'm astonished that she never really adresses misogyny and patriarchal structures and just sees eating disorders (or now the gender dysphoria) of women as an odyssey where the soul goes to it's dark places and reemerges reborn. Sorry, but this makes me cautious of jungian people. It feels a bit conservative and avoiding/sugarcoating patriarchy only talking of female and male archetypes which we all both have but failing to address the inherent misogyny still existing in our society. I mean eating disorders, the rule to shave every little hair of you body to look more "clean", like a child, less natural/wild, the increasing amount of women having cosmetic surgeries of their breasts or even their labia - that's not only trying to conform to a stereotype but is also going against your body, the same way our society goes against the earth, our climate, nature, which is another patriarchal act. I can't believe she doesn't address this, although you, Benjamin, pointed towards it. What I found really interesting and thought provoking though, was the thought of different "hysteria movements" in history and that many were linked to mostly female people. Thanks a lot for your work and the open conversations you are sharing here :) About your last topic - religions & how to deal with different religions colliding. I found the work of buddhist influenced Ken Wilber interesting. He wrote some books about the map of different spiritual layers of consciousness (shamanism, non dualism like Advaita etc.). I think the last way out is to see that normal religions who have a pictiure of god and morals etc. are man made constructs and therefore limited. I like to connect and learn more from modern teachers like Eckhard Tolle or Byron Katie "The work" who put the emphasis on your own inner work instead on stories about a god and rules etc. :) Uhm - another thought, more on topic of gender dysphoria, but a quite esoteric one: there are, maybe you can call them new age? spiritual directions, who talked of indigo children and then of crystal children etc. (saying that each generation comes through with a higher energy level) and it's said that more souls are coming to this earth now who never reincarnated on earth before. I wonder IF we just take this as a thesis to work with (not saying this is true but just trying to play with it), younger people maybe have less restrictions to experiment with their bodies as this is a relatively new experience for them and/or have more problems to feel home in their bodies (some people who resolve a lot of their ego boundaries / get more "awakened" / achieve a have a higher energy level also feel less connected/grounded in their bodies). Also, if you have a higher energy level and aren't used to all this dualistic stuff of male/female, (because in the end we are something beyond that binary, just a being) maybe all those dualistic concepts feel even more hurtful and people identify even more as non-binary or just feel they don't fit and take extreme measures to deal with it? ok, now you will think I'm weird, haha, but that's ok :) I just like to think in a lot of different directions. :)
Firstly, I have no bad juju towards people with real gender dysphoria changing their sex AS ADULTS! YOU DO YOU, I'LL DO ME and whatever. ( But do not demand free sex re-assignment..) I have had two trans friends since the 80s in eras when one never heard about this in the mainstream. That being said, leave children and teens alone! Can anyone just waltz into a Drs. office , tell the Dr. " I'm in pain give me an Oxy Rx OR ELSE!" NO! No reputable Dr. would do so, but young people and parents can go to a Dr., tell the Dr. their self diagnosis and demand hormones! And if the Dr. doesn't do it they are accussed of abusing their civil rights and lose their liscence. Extortion by proxy by trans rights activists pure and simple, using a trend with kids to push the agenda! Kids can't get a Hello Kitty tattoo but hey, change your kids sex or cave on their demands like buying a pair of designer jeans in the 70s, no problem! And if a parent does not agree, Social Services will be called in by their school! Well jeans fade, sex re-assignment does not. This is the latest trend in body modification. These kids grew up with Jazz Jennings and the internet, and they are being used as political pawns by adults with a political agenda.
If sex reassignment surgery brings psychological relief to the patient along the same magnitude of reconstructive surgery following e.g. a car accident why would you provide for one but not the other?
Don’t feel bad, my dear; all Occidental Society/Culture is incoherent. BTW, I’m an astrologer and tarot card reader, and they, especially the former, do offer one a “crane” of making distinctions, detached from identity and emotional reactions, in observing the self. (Am I the only one here?) Interesting discussion. “Female diffuse sexuality” - I’ve never heard it put that way before. 1 more, then I’ll go... Women have been walking around with the eyes of death for 50 years and more now, keeping men from “sexualizing the atmosphere” - and petrifying it instead with their Medeusa gaze. I’ve heard a lot of oohs and ahhs over the years, about the anima and far more so, the animus. Then some wymyn got the idea that the fake-woman inside men, and the fake-man inside wymyn, being “opposites”, should get along. But they were apparently too lazy to read what Jung said about these two neurotics in relationships: “The animus takes out its shining sword, the anima squirts its poison ink - and the resulting confrontation is so loathsome that it is seldom anything but life-negating and destructive, and very dark things can happen.” ...Anyway women have become wymyn with their Eyes of Death, wise men, and empirical evidence, are advising young men that only a fool would go so much as near modern, radioactive wymyn, so they’ve been left to be badass alone or with other wymyn (good luck).... So, tho it’s sad, heterosexual relationships are dead to us, until further notice, and young people had better start adapting themselves to sink-or-swim, absolute sameness, neutered equality: otherwise, men will continue getting the shit-end of every stick and/or wymyn are in for a shocking reality check when they start having to face indifferent Life, without men’s help.
As an astrologer I have thought about the issue and looked at the charts of trans-identified people and seen a number of factors like difficulty expressing male planets in female signs and vice versa, major Pluto issues, early sexual trauma indicators, mars-neptune, ect. . But getting caught up in one's own personal myth or narrative to explain what others are going through, no. I'd think Medusa is constellating in your own chart and wonder if you have Algol conjunct some personal planet. That Jung quote is great.
What am I even doing here ...Okay first off, you grossly oversimplify and distort in saying I “believe women are ruining everything” for men/me. As a matter of fact, I believe it’s I and people of like mind who are the ones who grant women their Feminine nature: and that it was and is the Feminists who do not, but who were and still are, rigidly and neurotically obsessed with making women into men, and do everything better than men have because, let’s face it, they, the Feminists, despise Female nature and hence, their own. Unfortunately, the rest of the female population, being passive-receptive and the slaves to Fashion they are, quickly took on Feminist “leaders” as their new masters as soon as they’d gotten rid of men. Now of course, the average woman is unhappier than ever - she’s alone and/or unmarried, thinks there’s something wrong with her because she’s bored stiff with the STEM fields their Feminist leaders would themselves never undertake, and knows they’ll look down on them if they have a problem with counting beans for the rest of their lives. You get the idea, though I could go on. Speaking of which, you probably have a problem with what I said, because you fear old crows like me will ruin your last chances to get married - and, because, like all women, you take everything personally. I don’t have a problem with your innate nature, but you do because your feminist leaders do. “I have problems with women’s real nature” is the definition of a Feminist. As for the astrology, a good astrologer accepts to their core the being of anyone and everyone who sits at the table (or computer) as their client, be they man, woman, Black, trans, straight, Gay, etc. In fact a good astrologer not only fully grants her clients their being, but makes goddam good and sure she’s clear of any of her own mundane prejudices in working with them. That said, I must add that astrologers, male and female, over the last decades, have betraying their prejudices - which, without exception, as far as I’ve seen - is always some form or facet of Leftist dogma. In other words, starting from the world and universe, not as it is, but as they wish it were; in still other words, they’re becoming shitty astrologers.
Jinn Bottle - It’s always the same repetitive dogma with you guys. I ‘must’ be a single woman looking down the barrel of loneliness and living the life of an old crone because I asked you a ‘question’. You’ve dealt your hand, thanks for showing me all your cards so early on. I sincerely hope you refrain from giving life advice to women. You don’t understand them, at all.
if you ever read this... I can give you a tarot reading : D On that light, There's so much that the ancient Vedic wisdom could contribute in answering the many questions about the masculine and the feminine. I had this thought throughout the whole interview(s)! (I'm a fan of those... great job!). may you be interested? Time for the East (the feminine) to meet the West (the masculine)? I'd love that!
OMG! I have never heard about this happening in groups until recently when my grand-daughter and her group of about 6 or 7 friends have all decided they are trans, gay or somewhere in between. These girls are all about 14 years old and go to the same school and share classes at the same very small school. They are cutting themselves but not enough to hurt themselves and talk about suicide together and they try to one-up each other, unfortunately. My daughter reads the texts between these girls to try to keep an eye on this issue and they call each other by boys names and call one another dad and brothers. I couldn't type this fast enough when I heard your guest talk about this. I am sitting here on the edge of my seat and my heart is pounding. I have never even thought about this being hysteria or something like that, almost like group think. Some of the girl's parents have talked about this but they are all just kind of confused and going it on their own. This subject is fascinating. This has helped me so much just hearing about it and the advice she gave sounds good. I just wish I could talk to Lisa Marchiano. I need more help with this. I really appreciate you having her on. So timely in my life and for my needs at this time.
Very glad to be of use D C. Looking up “rapid onset gender dysphoria” will get you to more resources. Also see my interviews with the girls at piqueresproject.com, who have gone through something similar themselves. (Numbers 2 and 8 in this playlist) ua-cam.com/play/PLRdayXEOwuMH3f0pmZqVQUU62rgJIzvt9.html
@@BenjaminABoyce Thank you so much.
Look up 4thwavenow which has a web site with lots of information, case stories, and advice, especially for families of kids going through this.
Are you from Seattle by chance? Do they go to Nova Alternative school? Of course don't answer that for privacy. I had a friend whose kid now early twenties went thru that. That being gender fluid\ gay bi\trans. Now hetero female with live in boyfriend
@@roryteal5940 No we are not in Seattle.
I'm so grateful to see these conversations emerging more. Thank you for putting this out there.
I'm 34 and my gender conflict arose quickly during puberty. I'm so, so glad that I did not grow up during this time because I definitely would have done something extreme. In the late 1990s, the trans community wasn't as in your face as it is today. So my home was radical feminism. I saw women as weak and pathetic. If they were mothers or expressed feminine traits, they couldn't be taken seriously nor were they fighting the good fight. (In retrospect, I realize it was actually radical feminism that created those ideas in me. That I needed to have masculine traits in order to be respected in this world.) It took me until about 32 to delve into the deeper aspects of my journey of self acceptance. I already did some ground work in my teens after a stint of hiding my developing body in baggy masculine clothes as I went through puberty.
Looking at and understanding our biological reality as a duality, male and female, is crucial. We need to understand our roots as humans, as animals. I think we forget how deep our biological instincts run and the purpose of them and how they fit together. Those instincts have been a part of our survival for thousands of years which in turn has influenced the way our societies have been set up for thousands of years. To think that social reprogramming can change thousands of years of genetic coding for survival, I think is quite naive.
Biological male and female are the bodies we reside in and they will hormonally influence us throughout our lives. But it doesn't mean we have to fit into stereotypical gender traits in order to except that we are born into male or female bodies. Nor should be shunning or demonizing them because they all have a purpose in our survival as a species.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous that the progressive community believes that it's only acceptable for feminine traits to be expressed through men and masculine traits to be expressed through women. I have quite a few masculine traits but that doesn't make me a man.
This is messing with people's lives 😡 and sending them down false paths because no one is celebrating the genders as they are traditionally, or rather, biologically. Shit, most of us don't even understand our biological nature! Again we don't need to force ourselves to be in these roles but demonizing them is destroying us and causing immense amount of suffering.
We need to accept and love the reality of what we are and from there, we can grow and merge that into the individuals we really are.
Thank you for sharing, Nicole.
Why do people keep making the mistake of thinking hospitals will have completely lost their ability to self-control their treatment mechanisms?
Were you happy you didn't go to the doctor when your knee hurt after hearing that so many people had their lower leg amputated?
Because that's what you are saying by using the argument "I'm so glad I didn't have the opportunity to do something growing up now".
@@Dutch3DMaster I would be cautious about going to a doctor with a history of amputating the legs of patients reporting knee pain:)
As a practitioner from the medical community and supportive of "traditional medical treatment", I can admit that sometimes good care is not provided to patients. Sometimes that care is harmful. We can look over the history of medical (and mental health, for that matter) treatments and see, in hindsight, how some practices were terrible and wrongheaded, despite being accepted at the time, despite the often good intentions by practitioners. In regards to medical and mental health treatment for gender dysphoria, particularly late/adolescent onset, this is a relatively new field of practice with an extraordinary increase in patient numbers. The research remains preliminary and limited in experimental design and scope. We lack long term outcome data. We lack research and understanding in regards to patients who are unhappy with their treatment, who abandon treatment. Despite published treatment guidelines, in actual practice we see significant variability in care provided for gender dysphoric patients. To put it simply, we in the medical and behavioral health community have much to learn, but many are reluctant to acknowledge this.
@@QHarbin And you completely missed my point. The reason I used that batshit crazy example of doctors completely exaggerating their response is because so many people like to claim that the intake at a gender clinic is a forced, non-reversible decision and that the doctors there happily will push anyone into a hormone treatment program even if they don't belong there.
The fact that such a clear example went completely over your head speaks volumes, along with some of the other simply wrong information that you have in your reply.
"particularly late/adolescent onset, this is a relatively new field of practice with an extraordinary increase in patient numbers."
@@Dutch3DMaster I understood that you were overstating your point- hence, the smile.
I'm glad if you are ultimately happy with your care- sounds like you have been through the wringer. I am also glad that Nicole seems happy with her life path. I don't think that Nicole was implying that that gender affirmative treatment "forces" people to pursue treatment. She's saying that she would have elected to pursue gender transition if it had been available at the time. Decades later, she is happy as a cis woman. Fair enough- only she can say. (Although I am curious about the radical feminists she followed since they sound outright misogynistic)
Each of you has a valid perspective on processing gender and its personal meaning in your life- after all, each of you ultimately feels happy and fulfilled, hopefully. When one chooses and prefers a different approach, that does not invalidate the decision- making of the other.
As a patient receiving care, it's also understandable that you should be focused on your own treatment and not have the same concerns about the field of gender treatment and how it is understood or conducted in hospitals, clinics, and offices throughout the country. That's OK- that falls under my jurisdiction and other practitioners like me. Hopefully that doesn't frighten you! Time to get back to my work- but best of luck.
Oh man..... Who the hell am I? How much have I picked up and never put down? How much of my thoughts are my own? This has been my latest life pondering. At 30 years old... Who the hell am I? What do I believe?
Internalized misogyny was me as a teen. Always wanted to be not like girls around me. Still I judge other women harshly and try to set myself apart. That was a huge struggle as a teen.
What are we worshipping? Perfection. Stimulating interview, I really enjoyed it. She's wonderful.
As a desister myself I really appreciate your videos
Such a good discussion. Can I just say that I’ve worked closely with one of the key gender clinics in the world and so am not new to this area of psychology or medicine, but honestly even these services could benefit from these videos.
These conversations you’ve been having are immensely useful - exactly what’s needed at this point.
I do hope you keep them up while you’re still interested.
Keep up the good work
I am SO THANKFUL for these conversations
Thank you so much for taking your time and making such a valuable contribution!
As a mother whose daughter came out as trans out of the blue I tried to figure that out and find information and got more and more frustrated on the way... Her first female cousin came out three years ago, the next cousin one year later and a classmate last year...isn´t it understandable and allowed to have second thoughts at the least... but when I started my research I was only told to be affirmative... if you don´t go along you´re bad... that´s depressing..
The world is colourful and there should be room for everyone and I understand that there are people whose only option is to change their gender identity! But I doubt that it´s the one and only way for everyone...
And then I found your very empathetic, open-minded and highly informative talk!
More than anything else (apart from many valuable thoughts) you gave me some relief and confidence back!
As Lisa has faith in the parents´ instincts and their own insights of the personal situation. Of course professionals are an important factor to navigate through a difficult process but you gave me the feeling that the parents are experts in some way as well... although one feels helpless and desperate sometimes we should trust our instincts again... giving our children some space and unconditional love can´t be wrong as well.
There can´t be a quick solution - it´s a process/a development which needs time... and you soothed the urge to make decisions head over heels. Hope to find a therapist with such a comprehensive approach here in Germany as well.
And Benjamin, thank you so much for taking your time speaking to so many people about this topic (I will be busy for some time listening to a lot more of your interviews), that you care and try to help (which you do!) asking essential and smart questions in a perceptive way!
I am enjoying the interview but I had to stop to write this when you mentioned the hero's journey and whether there's such a thing as the heroine's journey. Something Alfvoid mentioned about agency vs Hypoagency struck me.
Agency vs Hypoagency
1. Call to adventure vs Call to improvement
2. Supernatural Aid vs Supernatural Immunity -Power-
3. Threshold Guardian vs Approval
4. Helper vs Sacrifices
5. Mentor vs Influencer
6. Challenges vs Public Disinterest
7. Abyss (death)/revelation (life) vs loss of approval
8. Transformation vs New Reputation
9. Atonement vs Confession
10. Gift of the Goddess vs Gift of the God
11 Return vs Return.
Essentially "mean girls" is the definitive heroine's journey when interpreted from the Hypoagency perspective.
Ahh, read your comment before that part of the conversation and eagerly awaited. Thank you for your insight and contribution.
I grew up in the United Church of Christ which was progressive and liberal. And I discovered Campbell and Jung in highschool and was already deeply fascinated by evolutionary biology and Big Bang astrophysics.
I never officially went back to the church even though it is one of the most liberal and progressive religions in the USA.
So Jung and Campbell was more of a guide.
However I think there could be a new return to religion that is refreshed by people who went through personal transformations.
One of the core ideas I find in the Bible which matches the Psychoanalytic and Jungian ideas is:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
- Matthew 7:1-5 KJV (Matthew 7:1-5 other versions)
This is the very thing lost by the socially progressive left (SJW) activists.
And something that needs to be reborn in the culture in a refreshed way, that is honest, not manipulative that bridges past cultural and political barriers.
Essentially I read it as a reclaiming of projections. That if we are doing our own work we will transform the world rather than forcing everyone else to conform to our world view. The very nature of this "taking back projections" is also very counter to our new outrage culture.
The drug of fundamentalism is outrage. Beautiful.
You’re a really good, thoughtful, insightful interviewer, keep up the good work!
Thank you for the encouragement Barb!
Amazing interview and honesty in view of so much dishonesty in our culture around this topic. Thank you!
I found that discussion fascinating. I am from a little Mediterranean country, but for some reason I am really interested in the american society and all those new political tendencies and emerging narratives. I have to say I have reached many of the same conclusions that you two have about what the underlying factors for this new trans-craze in the U.S. and Canada (mailny) are, but also about the resurfacing puritanism of the new progressives, the guilt that's mixed with elitism etc. I will definitely look up for more content from both of you. You also made me curious about Jung. I have read a few Freud's books but I never moved to Jung. I'll do it now. Thank you both for this video, I hope we see more from you.
It's the power of suggestion. The mind drives the actions. The hysteria sounds like a societal version of the Toronto Blessing.
I absolutely love Jung and Nietzsche, too. I discovered them both around the same age, 20 or so, and I still love their ideas and writings so much.
I keep coming back to this interview. I have been listening to This Jungian Life podcast for some time now. Really recommend it.
You're "a Jungian at heart" Ben? Can't imagine what that would feel like.
Great interview; I've never taken a podcast tip so quickly.
Thanks to both of you for advancing this important discussion.
Only 11mins in and mind blown. Some of us did suspect a "psychic or social contagion" and this confirms a lot.
Amazing talk. Very insightful on a range of difficult issues. I will check out the podca. Thank you!
Excellent content. My inner jungster appreciates this so much.
If you (Ben) wonder what short clips you should make and post (it's so time-consuming to go through the videos to find the highlights!) -- well, the whole discussion of religion that starts with Jung's ideas about religious instinct, from about 50:00 to about 1:02:00, should be one! I completely agree with what she says Jung says -- the need for transcendence is so obviously a major force in the collective human psyche, and then her own ideas about how to know if you are worshipping something healthy or not. That whole section is brilliant and no one is saying these important things.
"The drug of fundamentalism" and the addiction to the high of outrage, that needs to be continuously increased to get the high, is a subject that could be explored much more. This is the kind of thing that may make your channel one of the most important on UA-cam.
This is the best interview so far. Yes I have my bias. Thanks!
Several years ago I fell off a roof and suffered ROGD (Rapid Onset Gravitational Dysphoria), for a brief time. Then I hit the ground and suffered ROPD (Rapid Onset Pain Dysphoria). Upon discovering I was uninjured, I transitioned to ROLD (Rapid Onset Laughing Dysphoria), for a few minutes. Then I detransitioned back to my normal state of mind, said "Fuck it", and climbed back up the ladder to finish cleaning the gutters..
Oh thanks for my best ROLOOD! (Rapid onset laugh of the day.)
good lord lol
LOL. When I was 10 I had a "royalty dysphoria" because I thought I was a princess stuck in a body of a typical schoolgirl (and in the Soviet Union of all places). I blamed my parents for not being of royal blood. I identified with Mary Queen of Scots (but obviously expecting a different ending). We played in royalty with other girls, putting old dresses of our mothers and writing each other letters copied from 19th century historical novels. A friend of mine "identified" as Elisabeth I. Then at 15, I had "opera dysphoria" thinking I had enough talent to become an opera singer even if everyone told me I didn't. Then I grew up.
36:45 what a wonderful question asking about female mythology. I grew up in a house where my father taught me that women had a different strengths from Men, that it was respected and women were never to be trifled with or underestimated. I was told numerous Tales of amazing women and the things they did. As far as mythological, I just rediscovered the story The Snow Queen by Hans Christian. Anderson.
Another amazing interview. Thank you Benjamin for bringing some amazing people to my attention!
Really appreciate this intelligent discussion.
That was fantastic!! Thank you both!
This was just written by Zizek:
"The Freudian solution is here rather simple: yes, psychic sexual identity is a choice, not a biological fact, but it is not a conscious choice that the subject can playfully repeat and transform. It is an unconscious choice which precedes subjective constitution and which is, as such, formative of subjectivity, which means that the change of this choice entails the radical transformation of the bearer of the choice."
health.spectator.co.uk/transgender-dogma-is-naive-and-incompatible-with-freud/
There are a lot of Freudians and Jungians dealing with these issues with the frame of psychological phenomenology.
In real life we already have several historical figures. Like David Bowie, who came out as gay, then a cross dresser, then bisexual, and then straight.
Overtime his sense of self shifted. But those shifts do not cancel out the fact that he had these previous marginal identities.
The medical community needs to understand that identities are not written in stone. And that radical decisions like gender reassignment should be applied conservatively.
Most teens follow the new fad and have been doing this since the beginning of time.
Perhaps but until the last decade or so, these kids weren't being stalked by other kids and adult activists on social media like tumblr and instagram, encourage to defy, hate and even leave their parents and others, lied to about informed consent (a blatant misnomer in this case), encouraged and pushed into cross-sex hormones, encouraged and pushed into cutting off perfectly healthy body parts --- all under the guise that those things would solve their problems and they could be someone they can never be.
This is true, unfortunately previous fads didn't have long term consequences such as sterility, unable to ever enjoy sex, and who knows what other health risks. Kind of ironic - people watch Farinelli movie or listen to Moreschi recordings and say how castrating boys for their voices was barbaric and child abuse without realizing that a similar thing is happening now because some boys think they are girls. @R M - some parents today seem to encourage it when they talk about transitioning 5-year olds.
@@jewelmarkess, you're correct. If I could be wrong about anything, I wish it was this. When will this mass hysterical nightmare end?
R M - I wish I am wrong too. At times like this I am glad I am no longer young (in my late 50s) and even that I don't have kids (and I wanted to back when I was young). At least I'd not have a grandkid telling he/she is "born in the wrong body." I do feel for parents who are faced with that (except for those who actively encourage e.g. because someone always wanted a girl or whatever.) I hope this nonsense ends in my lifetime.
absolutely wonderful interview. thank you, i learned so much.
Incredible show. So many "aha! Yes, this makes sense!,"moments. Great discussion.
Absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much. 🙏🏼
Wake up to the woke-ness 😆.
Great discussion. Lisa’s insights and perspective are important.
This is an excellent discussion. Thank you for taking on this subject.
Psychiatrists always hand out the newest disorder like it’s candy. Remember ADHD? Yeah.
This time it just also includes surgery. Also the ‘eyes of death’ story was pretty cool, I can roll with that lol
LOVE Lisa. Great podcast.
"Union"?... Oh, Jungian!
I love what Lisa M. said about humor. I find that so true.
I really enjoyed this one!
So did I-I hope to have her back!
@@BenjaminABoyce You both interacted fantastically well to present a genuinely reasonable discussion. Thank You.
That was so much fun, thank you.
The Salem witch trials were mass hysteria, (Or MA hysteria, literally. Lol) involving young girls.
One of the most interesting conversations I’ve heard in awhile and great questions as always Ben. Also maybe the first time you have ever said something I strongly disagree with!
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re: the risk of error in fields that are "studies" rather than SCIENCE. James Lindsay and Bogosian just had a fabulous discussion with Rogan on the this problem. These fields treat knowledge like faith. As a person of faith, to the question "why" would answer because "this" and point to Deutoronomy, the same happens in the non scientific "sciences". To the question of "why", the person answers "this" and points to Jung. Whereas in SCIENCE, to the question "why" one does not point to an opinion answer, but to a mechanical answer, one coming from an experimental process, with a structured methodology to remove all (most) subjectivity.
So yes, soft sciences are absolutely more prone to fads.
But harder sciences are not free of error, they are just less frequent.
And also consider, the soft fields of "knowledge" (I prefer perceived knowledge) have existed forever (all fields where studied by the religious), whereas hard science, the scientific method, was only achieved (and still only partially, people prefer perceived knowledge, over the difficult process of testing for knowledge) for just over a century.
But yes, scientism has caused mayhem too.
34:00 Surely the historic oppression of women isn’t an outlandish partial explanation for the preponderance of social hysteria among young women, especially where restrictions on them have been acute. When your future, your relationships, your speech, your education, your movement, and your body are severely circumscribed, some hysteric symptoms seem like a means of self-expression that depending on the era could be safer and more socially acceptable than the kinds of freedoms most women enjoy in the West today.
If the evidence is there.
When I was a teenager, I read something about how court women in both ancient Korea and Heian Period Japan used “possession”-which usually required the intervention of a “shaman” in a trance-as a method of expressing themselves and voicing objections to a given situation. But don’t quote me on that!
Not sure about the meowing French nuns though.
(PS another great interview! Thank you so much for creating this series! I’m learning so much. Some of it is horrifying, but at least I know.)
Fascinating discussion 🙂
As the sea churned around him, Captain Boyce clung to the rail and scanned the horizon. There! Far to port, like a longtime TERF expelling a vape, the beast broke the surface with a roar.
The salt air went foul. Bananas, leather, long-digested cabbage - the smell was overwhelming. Even as he fought to focus, the memory of that terrible night with Meghan Murphy came unbidden. Boyce forced it back and called an order to his crew.
We're going to need a trigger float! Fire when ready!
The trigger float started whining the moment the tarp came off. "Trans wammin ARE wammin!" Splashing above the roiling third wave as the beast turned towards they/their/them, the float screamed incoherently. "Kill all men!"
Good thing trigger floats are cheap and expendable, thought Boyce, as he tightened his grip on the lampoon.
The beast lumbered into range as the trigger float's neon head disappeared into her maw. It was all down to Boyce, now. The lives of all his men hung in the balance. He raised the lampoon. Steady...steady...
@no privacy take it back to the drawing board
Rofl.
Pure
Gold.
at 1:01:38 - yes end all tribalism...we each have to own our selves, not project our evil onto anything or one, take responsibility for everything we do...everything....
Very interesting discussion.
My parents would be the ones sayin I've never shown signs of dysphoria, even tho they knew I was a tomboy as a child and only started to act super feminine when I got into an all-female religious school and I tried extremely hard to be cool. They knew I started crossdressing whenever I had time alone and struggled for over 10 years with my identity behind a hyper-feminine mask. They caught me from time to time, staying up at night, stapping down my chest, chatting with people, trying to express my identity trough insane amounts of drawings etc. I have a distinct memory of my maybe 13 yo self standing in front of a mirror naked and repeating to myself that "a genitalia can't stop someone from being happy". As I got older (15-17) I always told everyone that I will transition when I get old so I can live my life as a man because I could never imagine myself being a woman, but I was so set on not adressing my feelings I always overcompensated and turned to being an oversexualized go-getter kinda girl. I remember trough out my teenage years, when dysphoria got really bad I went on (unrelated) forums, wrote down my experiences and people would suggest that I might be transsexual but I just refused to even think about that idea because that was something "taboo". The time I started to become concious about my dysphoria is when (around 2015, didn't know anything about the lgbt movements yet) I forced myself to face this thing that was taking up all my time by trying to cope with it. I did do research and I did have a "realization". I came out at the age of 19 back in 2016 because I felt "empowered" by all the sudden trans acceptance that I've seen on the internet. I've never participated in trans subcultures, no tumblr, I've only been part of a facebook group that I left after a month because I didn't want them to influence me and the ridiculousness, hysteria and fundamentalism really bothered me. I never had lgbt friends, I'm from a moderately conservative country. This whole ROGD thing is really bothering me right now because even tho I have been struggling my whole life I just can't help but think about the "what if", my impostor syndrome is in full force, and that just adds another layer to the struggle... I'm pretty lost but at least I'm not on HRT yet...
Forgot to add when I came out my parents accused me of being "beainwashed by media" and they disregarded all my experiences and used really degradory ways to express their distaste. Do not do that to your child, please. Talk to them and be respectful about it and help them trough the depression and anxiety first that comes with dysphoria, rapid onset or not.
Good to hear from a Psychologist looking at a bigger picture and recognising trends. Best, sensible discussion I heard.
The Trans civil rights agenda is crushing reasoned discussion.
Wish I could find a local Psych with the same questioning approach. Affirmation all the time... so frustrating! Yes, I find myself in hospital waiting areas, looking at parents with skeletal anorexic teenagers and envying that at least they will get real help from psych and medical. Awful, I know.
Another brilliant one!
40:40
"eating disorders are... that is some scary shit
i mean eating disorders have the highest mortality rate of any mental health issue, if i'm not mistaken... or or or its up there"
good thing you brought this person on to consult her knowledge on psychology for an hour
and which intellectual role model of yours has never made a verbal slip up or unfounded claim? Thanks brother for your superiority.
Alright Ben, I'll try listening for you.
I wonder about social contagions manifesting in men historically? Plenty of historical record of religious asceticism and self-torture. It feels similar in structure to me to the self-harm practices also associated with teen girls these days. Cutting, burning, body modifications, eating disorders etc
Right when you and Marchiano started talking about the Calvinism and puritanism of intersectionality, I wished you had had a chance to get into the notion that it has of "harm," because that's something that's bugged me for years. What I notice is that this movement has this notion where you can't know whether you're harming one of the "oppressed." Only *they* can know. It gets into another instance of "listen and believe." In fact, that's what Marchiano was talking about with the "therapy" for ROGD, though in that case, the "oppressor" is the person's own body. It gives progressives this constant "out" where they don't have to take responsibility for their own distress. This is going to sound weird from here on, but bear with me. As long as there is some "oppressor" they can blame for their distress, they can offload responsibility onto them (or, in the case of ROGD, "it", the body), because they/it can't know what they/it are/is doing that's harming others. They/it have/has to be told, or in the case of the body, modified. As long as that is the case, they/it are/is always put in the position of "guilty until proven innocent," because there is no objective standard by which they/it can say, "Okay, this person is experiencing some distress, but I'm not responsible for it." If I may make a request, I'd like to see an exploration of what causes this mindset, what the danger of it is (some of which I've already covered here), and get into notions of how society draws the line between when someone or something *is* causing harm, and when it is not, if you haven't covered it already. I think this has a lot of importance, because while it gives progressives an "out" for taking responsibility for their own distress, it also gives them an "in" for changing social and administrative rules at will, where the opposition is given no quarter, no chance to challenge when harm is created. They are given carte blanche that they don't deserve, and I think you and I agree that this in fact leads to harm against the enlightened society we would like to see.
Interesting about, "maybe we were made to worship." A traditional belief might agree with that and add, "perhaps that is the root of world health or dysfunction."
Regarding their denial of ROGD, what exactly did the movement think would happen when they strategically added “Q” (questioning) to LGBT marketing?
at 41:00 so true...I was bullied by my daughter with miss leading suicide statistics and much worse to do whatever she wanted, new name, new pronouns, testosterone, surgery. It's heartbreaking...:``-(
Very heartbreaking. Going through the same. Made worse by contemporary therapy about affirming and feeding the epidemic.
43:40
"this kid never had issue with gender until last week when she spent a week staring at youtube transition videos"
do you guys think itd be weird if someone based their view on trans people from a video on youtube?
Monty Python had a famous sketch called the Philosopher's Song: ua-cam.com/video/l9SqQNgDrgg/v-deo.html
Does Benjamin have a similar song in his upcoming musical about psychologists? Rather than drink one could make the theme gender dysphoria, sex-change, or kinks.
I would really like to see the statistics and sources for this supposed phenomenon, as it seems more like sensationalism and knee jerk reactions to me. According to my research only 1 in 12000 people in the US seek any medical or surgical treatment for gender dysphoria. Put this into perspective 1% of the population is Autistic, this has also increased dramatically in the last 10 years because of increased diagnosis, changes of definitions (aspergers being included now for example).
1-3% of the population is psychopathic, same goes for pedophilia. I’m not equating these things, but if you put that in perspective or human crisis the percentage of people seeking gender related treatment is tiny and a lot less damaging to society, i just wonder why it has been so piled up on as an issue. I think its just moral conservatism and i think it also infantilises girls (so much of the debate has been anxiety about girls , no one is worried about boys doing this).
Around 35:00, when you talk about internalized misogyny and women getting the short end of the stick historically, it occurred to me that you and Cassie Jaye of theredpillmovie.com could have a fascinating conversation about these issues. You both bring uncommon kindnessness, openness, and genuine curiosity to interviews and I'd love to see what would come if you put your heads together.
Excellent.
Sapolsky has a few ideas on the biological underpinnings that tend to religious thinking. He even explains that schizophrenia as a recessive trait continues because it serves a positive function, at least, in small wandering tribes. I am left to wonder after listening to this very satisfying discussion whether adolescent female suggestibility might also, in our collective preagricultural existence, have served as a social benefit.
@@Daniela-tu4so Only you have suggested that adolescent suggestibility is a uniquely female phenomenon.
Game begins
Village established.
Town hall built
Mud huts built
Food production established
_Acheivement 'baby hysteria' achieved_
Village expands
It might make more sense in a tribal society. Maybe they would normally soak up more info from more ages above them rather than getting into feedback loops with same age girls in post industrial revolution schooling systems
around 58:32 they begin discussing (loosely) the differences in the world's religions and if we register ONE as THE TRUTH, how do we not exclude or "demean" other religions as "not the truth".... point in fact, NOT ALL RELIGIONS CAN BE TRUE. They are by their inherent nature, exclusive to the others as holding the possibility of being true. They are NOT all leading to the same end, for instance, not all religions/practices reference an afterlife, or "sin", or "good" or "evil".... this may be a little ridiculous, but comparative studies of religions through history will naturally reveal what is "true" to each "seeker"....and it will nearly always reflect the current or homeostatic position of the seeker. I enjoy Jung, but there's no way he could've made a resolution on this. Each seeker must delve DEEP into the potential structure of belief he or she would align with, then find opposing arguments as to why it couldn't be possible, OR they simply go with it and ignore opposition.
1:02:40 I thought the whole concept of “privilege” was all about examining yourself and the privileges you have over others, how these intersect, etc. Something I almost never see people on the right doing.
Having said that, I can see how it goes wrong, where people on the left rip each other apart because any disagreement becomes “You’re not allowed to speak about x topic, because you have y privilege”
1:03:24 ah I see you touch on some of this here
I lied. I’m back. But for a damn good reason: No. Cats.
One of them makes a return in the latest Evergreen exposé (released today)
If you go a spiritual way, you don't necessarily automatically feel better as she said (that was her guideline). That's nonsense. When you go towards the light you also can experience very dark moments, because guess what where there's light there's also a shadow as long as you really haven't solved all of your issues and the ones of this earth. Light and a higher energy can cause traumas to come to the surface and when you aren't prepared or have someone wise and highly professional person around to help you it CAN have negative ramifications.
Also - I'm astonished that she never really adresses misogyny and patriarchal structures and just sees eating disorders (or now the gender dysphoria) of women as an odyssey where the soul goes to it's dark places and reemerges reborn. Sorry, but this makes me cautious of jungian people. It feels a bit conservative and avoiding/sugarcoating patriarchy only talking of female and male archetypes which we all both have but failing to address the inherent misogyny still existing in our society. I mean eating disorders, the rule to shave every little hair of you body to look more "clean", like a child, less natural/wild, the increasing amount of women having cosmetic surgeries of their breasts or even their labia - that's not only trying to conform to a stereotype but is also going against your body, the same way our society goes against the earth, our climate, nature, which is another patriarchal act. I can't believe she doesn't address this, although you, Benjamin, pointed towards it.
What I found really interesting and thought provoking though, was the thought of different "hysteria movements" in history and that many were linked to mostly female people.
Thanks a lot for your work and the open conversations you are sharing here :)
About your last topic - religions & how to deal with different religions colliding. I found the work of buddhist influenced Ken Wilber interesting. He wrote some books about the map of different spiritual layers of consciousness (shamanism, non dualism like Advaita etc.). I think the last way out is to see that normal religions who have a pictiure of god and morals etc. are man made constructs and therefore limited. I like to connect and learn more from modern teachers like Eckhard Tolle or Byron Katie "The work" who put the emphasis on your own inner work instead on stories about a god and rules etc. :)
Uhm - another thought, more on topic of gender dysphoria, but a quite esoteric one: there are, maybe you can call them new age? spiritual directions, who talked of indigo children and then of crystal children etc. (saying that each generation comes through with a higher energy level) and it's said that more souls are coming to this earth now who never reincarnated on earth before. I wonder IF we just take this as a thesis to work with (not saying this is true but just trying to play with it), younger people maybe have less restrictions to experiment with their bodies as this is a relatively new experience for them and/or have more problems to feel home in their bodies (some people who resolve a lot of their ego boundaries / get more "awakened" / achieve a have a higher energy level also feel less connected/grounded in their bodies). Also, if you have a higher energy level and aren't used to all this dualistic stuff of male/female, (because in the end we are something beyond that binary, just a being) maybe all those dualistic concepts feel even more hurtful and people identify even more as non-binary or just feel they don't fit and take extreme measures to deal with it? ok, now you will think I'm weird, haha, but that's ok :)
I just like to think in a lot of different directions. :)
Firstly, I have no bad juju towards people with real gender dysphoria changing their sex AS ADULTS! YOU DO YOU, I'LL DO ME and whatever. ( But do not demand free sex re-assignment..) I have had two trans friends since the 80s in eras when one never heard about this in the mainstream. That being said, leave children and teens alone! Can anyone just waltz into a Drs. office , tell the Dr. " I'm in pain give me an Oxy Rx OR ELSE!" NO! No reputable Dr. would do so, but young people and parents can go to a Dr., tell the Dr. their self diagnosis and demand hormones! And if the Dr. doesn't do it they are accussed of abusing their civil rights and lose their liscence. Extortion by proxy by trans rights activists pure and simple, using a trend with kids to push the agenda! Kids can't get a Hello Kitty tattoo but hey, change your kids sex or cave on their demands like buying a pair of designer jeans in the 70s, no problem! And if a parent does not agree, Social Services will be called in by their school! Well jeans fade, sex re-assignment does not. This is the latest trend in body modification. These kids grew up with Jazz Jennings and the internet, and they are being used as political pawns by adults with a political agenda.
If sex reassignment surgery brings psychological relief to the patient along the same magnitude of reconstructive surgery following e.g. a car accident why would you provide for one but not the other?
Don’t feel bad, my dear; all Occidental Society/Culture is incoherent.
BTW, I’m an astrologer and tarot card reader, and they, especially the former, do offer one a “crane” of making distinctions, detached from identity and emotional reactions, in observing the self.
(Am I the only one here?) Interesting discussion. “Female diffuse sexuality” - I’ve never heard it put that way before.
1 more, then I’ll go...
Women have been walking around with the eyes of death for 50 years and more now, keeping men from “sexualizing the atmosphere” - and petrifying it instead with their Medeusa gaze.
I’ve heard a lot of oohs and ahhs over the years, about the anima and far more so, the animus. Then some wymyn got the idea that the fake-woman inside men, and the fake-man inside wymyn, being “opposites”, should get along. But they were apparently too lazy to read what Jung said about these two neurotics in relationships: “The animus takes out its shining sword, the anima squirts its poison ink - and the resulting confrontation is so loathsome that it is seldom anything but life-negating and destructive, and very dark things can happen.”
...Anyway women have become wymyn with their Eyes of Death, wise men, and empirical evidence, are advising young men that only a fool would go so much as near modern, radioactive wymyn, so they’ve been left to be badass alone or with other wymyn (good luck)....
So, tho it’s sad, heterosexual relationships are dead to us, until further notice, and young people had better start adapting themselves to sink-or-swim, absolute sameness, neutered equality: otherwise, men will continue getting the shit-end of every stick and/or wymyn are in for a shocking reality check when they start having to face indifferent Life, without men’s help.
How do you go giving women tarot readings etc with the belief that women are ruining everything for men, for you?
As an astrologer I have thought about the issue and looked at the charts of trans-identified people and seen a number of factors like difficulty expressing male planets in female signs and vice versa, major Pluto issues, early sexual trauma indicators, mars-neptune, ect. . But getting caught up in one's own personal myth or narrative to explain what others are going through, no. I'd think Medusa is constellating in your own chart and wonder if you have Algol conjunct some personal planet. That Jung quote is great.
What am I even doing here ...Okay first off, you grossly oversimplify and distort in saying I “believe women are ruining everything” for men/me. As a matter of fact, I believe it’s I and people of like mind who are the ones who grant women their Feminine nature: and that it was and is the Feminists who do not, but who were and still are, rigidly and neurotically obsessed with making women into men, and do everything better than men have because, let’s face it, they, the Feminists, despise Female nature and hence, their own. Unfortunately, the rest of the female population, being passive-receptive and the slaves to Fashion they are, quickly took on Feminist “leaders” as their new masters as soon as they’d gotten rid of men. Now of course, the average woman is unhappier than ever - she’s alone and/or unmarried, thinks there’s something wrong with her because she’s bored stiff with the STEM fields their Feminist leaders would themselves never undertake, and knows they’ll look down on them if they have a problem with counting beans for the rest of their lives.
You get the idea, though I could go on. Speaking of which, you probably have a problem with what I said, because you fear old crows like me will ruin your last chances to get married - and, because, like all women, you take everything personally.
I don’t have a problem with your innate nature, but you do because your feminist leaders do. “I have problems with women’s real nature” is the definition of a Feminist.
As for the astrology, a good astrologer accepts to their core the being of anyone and everyone who sits at the table (or computer) as their client, be they man, woman, Black, trans, straight, Gay, etc. In fact a good astrologer not only fully grants her clients their being, but makes goddam good and sure she’s clear of any of her own mundane prejudices in working with them.
That said, I must add that astrologers, male and female, over the last decades, have betraying their prejudices - which, without exception, as far as I’ve seen - is always some form or facet of Leftist dogma. In other words, starting from the world and universe, not as it is, but as they wish it were; in still other words, they’re becoming shitty astrologers.
Jinn Bottle - It’s always the same repetitive dogma with you guys. I ‘must’ be a single woman looking down the barrel of loneliness and living the life of an old crone because I asked you a ‘question’.
You’ve dealt your hand, thanks for showing me all your cards so early on. I sincerely hope you refrain from giving life advice to women. You don’t understand them, at all.
What am I even doing here : Hit a nerve, did I?
And who are “you guys”?
if you ever read this...
I can give you a tarot reading : D
On that light,
There's so much that the ancient Vedic wisdom could contribute in answering the many questions about the masculine and the feminine.
I had this thought throughout the whole interview(s)! (I'm a fan of those... great job!).
may you be interested?
Time for the East (the feminine) to meet the West (the masculine)?
I'd love that!
Very profound. Lots of good, meaty stuff.
Eastern orthodoxy is the answer
At last.
Lisa Marchiano has come on.
Some Jungian analysis is sure to follow.
This whole interview is like a song!
Psychosis.
Fir- argh...